Richard Thompson

Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My guest today is the one and only Richard Thompson. Richard, you have a new album shipped to short Why that title?

Well, it seemed appropriate at the time. Let me think, Well, I think in a sense, we're all a bit out to see you know, you know, like musicians, songwriters and and uh, we're kind of sending messages to land, like a song as it is a kind of a little a little message from far far out at sea. Uh. I think as an artist, I think you always feel like like you're on the edge of society. You you're not, you're not kind of part of it, you're not in it.

Okay, So let's say I call you up and I say, Richard, I'm going to a party. Are you going to say, okay, pick me up. Are you going to say not interested?

I used to go to parties to pick up girls and get drunk. Now I'm happily married and I don't drink. Parties become more, you know, like dinner parties. I think I love parties where you go and you sit around and you have some dinner or something, and you have really good intellectual conversations. I love intellectual conversation. That's my favorite thing.

Well, let me just say that I invited you to a dinner party and you don't know anybody. Is that exciting or depressing?

It depends who it is, depends who's sitting at the table. I mean, I've done that many times, and sometimes you make friends for life, and sometimes you meet really interesting people. Yeah, if it's a table containing you know, uh, you know William Blake and Stevie Smith and Dmitriy Shostakovich and you know, Michael Angelo, then I think that that could be an interesting party, you know. And I wouldn't mind if I didn't know anybody beforehand. I could find lots to talk about.

Well, I don't think we're going to be going to that dinner party soon, but.

Perhaps in heaven, you know. See.

So just to be clear, you feel like you're on the outside, but you don't have any social anxiety.

Social anxiety and not really No, I used to, but I think I think I think I'm over it now. Actually, yeah, yeah, I think I'm fine.

Did you always feel like an outsider your whole life?

Most of my life? Yeah, an outside yeah, in some ways, a bit of a stranger in some ways. You know, I was a bit of a solitary kid, I suppose, and I still enjoy my own company. I need some alone time generally speaking. So yeah, I mean I think

So you need your alone time. What do you do in your alone time?

What do I do?

Well?

I get creative whatever that means, you know, you know, I play music. I think about music. I compose music, I compose lyrics and I watched the football.

Well, is your alone time because you want to create or you're sick of hanging with people?

No, I'm not sick of hanging with people. It just feels like a need. If it's not daily, then it's certainly weekly that I just have to get away and create something. And that's an old human it's not a human traits. Isn't it like a creativity? I think we love to create something where we look for inspiration, you know, So I'm just looking for inspiration, Okay.

I find my best inspiration comes when I'm not looking for it, primarily in the shower. Is there a moment or a place where you find that you tend to get the best ideas well?

The shower is very good, so is the bath, you know, the Turkish bath very good. That work for Rumy gelidin Rumy.

I think.

But as Picasso said, you know, the music will find you, but but it wants to find you working. And I think sometimes you kind of have to meet creativity halfway. You can't just kind of let it come, or you can wait for a long time and get very frustrated. So I tend to kind of, you know, noodle at projects, and then I find and at some point I get in the right mental state to allow creativity in.

Okay, So this last album came, you know, essentially half a decade after the previous album. You talked about working to let the inspiration in. Was it that you decided you were going to make another record or what is that interim about.

I think the album process, unless you've got a deadline that you have to, you know, grab, I think things just accumulate. I think you accumulate enough material, and you think, well, I've got I've got sixteen songs here. Surely out of those sixteen, i've got twelve twelve good ones I can put on a record, So let's book some studio time, you know. I think it works like that. Really, COVID gave me a lot more time to write, but obviously I couldn't tour, So that was two and a half

Okay. The last song on the album talks about needing to go on the road to make the money to make that whole work. So it didn't work for a couple of years with COVID. Was that tough financially, Yeah, really tough. You think, like a lot of musicians. I had to had to dig into my pension. So many people I knew did the same thing.

It was. It was tough, you know, on top of an expensive divorce. But that was really tough. And I'm still catching.

Up, okay. You know, you talk about an expensive divorce. You get into the lyrics on this record and it seems to be a divorce record, and then finding love and it seems that, you know, you talk a lot. The best song on me I'm for Me is trust, and you talk about trust. How much is this reflective of the relationship you were with and then you got divorced?

Probably nothing to do with that, really. I wrote the song really about my wife, who's an adoptee, and adoptees sometimes have a hard time trusting anybody, so so I really write write it for her. I'm putting words in her mouth. Frankly, It's an old trick, but I'll resort to it if I have to and you know, she has a hard time trusting people. She kind of trusts me now after seven years fifty so that's an achievement.

So how'd you meet her?

I mean it backstage, classic friend of a friend, and we're both from North London, both come from the same town, you know, both come from the same background, share similar values, and you know, just someone I have my I think she's a wonderful person and she does do a lot of work in the adopted your world, does a lot of important work in that world, and I'm filled with admiration.

Did the new relationship have anything to do with the divorce?

You could say that I suppose. I think, you know, I was married to my previous wife for you know, thirty plus years, and I think at some point you realize that that there's there's no life there. It's it's a kind of a lifeless relationship and you're kind of going through the motions. So yeah, well, without being too specific about it, I should say that's true.

And your present wife has children. Are they still in the home or are they outside the home?

Her children are now just about left that they were in their twenties, so they're now independent. Yeah, my kids are much older. I got five kids. My youngest is thirty, so my oldest is fifty something, so might have long flown the coop.

When you got involved with your present wife, you were living with her. Were the kids still in the.

Home, Yeah, some so, some were somewhat.

So what was it like starting all over with the kids in your home? I mean that must have been you know, some people say they don't want to do that anymore. Been there done that?

You know, I'm I think it was unfortunate that the wee all got on very well. I mean I really like us that Zarah's kids, so that they're great kids. And you know, it wasn't like we were there all the time. You know, sometimes I'm working. I was in England some some of the time. She was in the States. The kids went off to college at some point, so it wasn't like we were, you know, under each other's feet or anything. So just a nice relationships all round.

So you have five kids, A couple of them are well known from your first wife. What are the other three kids up do?

Let's see what my daughter came He is a musician, My son Teddy's a musician, my son Jack's a musician slash interior designer. My daughter Moona's basically a mother, she's got five kids, and my son Jesse's kind of does it stuff that I don't understand.

And are they all off the payroll?

Yeah? Pretty much? Yeah, thank thank God that they'll start paying me at some point. I don't perhaps they'll support me in the assisted living home.

And how much contact do you have with them?

My kids? Yeah, I'm pretty good, fairy frequent. I probably see Teddy the most because when I'm in New Jersey, he's in New York, so we're fairly close together. My mother kids are all kind of around, you know, Southeast England, so I'll see them all in the next couple of weeks probably.

So how most of the time you're in New Jersey now.

It's about fifty to fifty I should say, yeah, between London and New Jersey.

And with your previous wife, where were the locations.

Between London and Los Angeles?

And was it still fifty to fifty?

I say pretty much?

Yeah, So you have a place in London.

I have a place in London from which I'm speaking to you right now.

And how long have you had that place?

Oh golly, at least thirty years, probably thirty five years.

And when you're not there, is there somebody stays for you?

Well, where we have people look after it.

Yeah, okay, So what's the difference to you living in Los Angeles is supposed to living in New Jersey.

I love Los Angeles. I love California as a state. It's a beautiful state and it's full of variety, and in many ways it's easy living. I mean it's expensive living, but it's kind of easy in so many ways. Compared to Britain anyway, New Jersey for me is a lot more convenient. I'm much closer for doing you know, Atlantic backwards and forwards stuff. I'm twenty minutes from the airport and yeah, it's it's a handy place to be. I know,

And what's the difference between living in the US and living in the UK? I think.

What's the truth that I think? You know, Europe's older, that's the main thing. The The socialist historian Eric Hobsbaum said late in life he said that the best place is to live a constitutional monarchies because they give you the greatest chance of freedom. And I feel that really about Britain's a kind of stability to bring and you know, there's a security so that people there's a lot of

When you say there's more freedom in a constitutional monarchy, can you amplify that?

Yeah, you think of the British royal family and you think, you know that these are over privileged people. You know that I mean, my god, you know what, we pay them all this money and they dressed up in these uniforms and they do these ceremonies, and is it all really necessary? You know? I think, particularly if you're an American,

Okay, wait a second, we're in the US, so we're one step removed. And we read about modern European history when the kings and queens had all this power. But to us the queen feels like a figurehead with no political power. How do the people in the UK view her or here now it's a king.

But yeah, yeah, the view is a good idea. The kings and queens of Britain I have have not had constitutional power for a long time, so that they've always been figureheads. As I said, they say the Queen reigne, she does not rule, but I should say now the king reigns, he does not rule. So it's it's a symbolic can continue them if you like, in theory that the king can can dissolve parliament. He can say that's it,

And we hear, you know, labor just got in. But we hear that the NHS is underfunded. We hear that immigration did not decrease, which was one of the big points of Brexit. What's the status of the country today.

I think you just hit hit upon the two big issues right now, which is immigration. But Britain does not have a successful immigration policy and that they're gonna have to deal with that. It's serious stuff. And the NHS has been underfunded for years and years and years. The problem is the medicine keyps becoming more and more expensive. You know, to treat certain patients you need big expensive machines. It costs a fortune and the NHS has not been

And if you become ill, do you go to a private doctor or the NHS?

What if I can afford, I'll go you a private doctor, okay, or I'll get ill in America? Where where where I'm on medicare?

So you grew up in notting Hill.

Briefly. Yeah, when we were five we moved to Highgate.

And for those of us you know geography challenge, where is there?

Well, notting Hill is a few miles west of central London. Highgate is about five miles north of central London and it's kind of a leafy suburb or on the edge of a leafy suburb. There's a big park called Hampster's Heath, which is yeah, you can't build on it. It's like too sandy to build on. So it survived in close proximities London. And that's where I live now in London.

And what do your parents do for a living.

My mum was a housewife, my dad was a policeman.

So when marijuana and other things became a big deal, and your father was a policeman, how did you square that?

Well, he said, probably in the seventies, you know, he said to me. Oh yeah, people talking about marijuana all the time. He said, Well, we used to call it Indian hemp back in the day, and it's pretty talking about the nineteen sixties or even the fifties, he said, yeah, you know, well we used to confiscate some sometimes from the West Indian immigrants, you know, and we'd have a little smoke at the police station. And he said, it didn't do much for me, he said.

And so how many kids in the family.

In Oh, my siblings just a sister. I have an older sister.

And okay, you were born in forty nine. Did you still feel the after effects of the war.

Yeah, well, London was pretty bombed, you know, during the war. So as kids were we play on these bomb sites. I mean, it's really dangerous and our parents didn't know necessarily what we were doing, but you know, we play in the broken glass and you know, thank thank god, we never encountered an unexploded bomber or an incendiary or anything. But you know what, we just you know what, it's your childhood. You've got nothing else to compare it to.

And when did the fog live? When did it go from black and white to color? I think.

It probably took till sixty seven. I'm thinking, you know, sixty three when the Beatles, Mary Korn's, you know, the whole fashion and music thing. London became the center of that whole world. I think it was still black and white then, and I think sixty seven with sort of psychedelia flower power, I think then suddenly it turned it turned to color far as I remember, and you know, the fifties was very gray as far as I remember as a kid, that just seemed like the weather was great.

So from your house you could get the tube or how would you actually get to these clubs? And how long would it take?

Yeah, you could take the tube or the bus. The tube is very quick. I mean from my from our house at that point, we could you could be in town in like fifteen minutes, twenty minutes from the kind of inner suburbs. Well, when my parents moved us to the outer suburbs, it took it took about you know, half an hour thirty five minutes.

So did your parents ever care that you went alone, or they say, hey, go be your own person. I'd always I'd always.

Deceived my parents really about what I was doing and where I was going. So sometimes I missed the last train home, so I'd have to walk home, which made I'll be getting in at like one o'clock two in the morning, and thank god, my parents were heavy sleepers, and I kind of sneak in and they say, what time did you get in last night? I said, oh, you know, eleven, eleven thirty. I said, oh, okay, so I did that for years. Okay, how good a.

Student were you?

Not very good?

And was there always music in the house?

Yeah, my parents were musical, you know, they weren't professional, but my mom was a good singer and my father was an amateur guitar player. So we have Let's Pool records, Jago Reinhart records, lot Lonnie Johnson records from my father's collection and from my sister's collection, who was five years older than me. We had all the good rock and roll. But so we had Buddy Holly, Elvis, Jean Vincent, Jerry Lee, all the good rock and roll as well. So always music in the house.

And when did you start to play an instrument.

My father brought home a guitar that was damaged when I was ten, and he kind of glued it back together again, and then I just picked it up and started playing because it was something I wanted to do for a long time. I've been asking my parents for a guitar since I was five, So at ten, I finally got one.

Why were you asking them at age five?

Rock and roll? You know? You know Elvis had a guitar, but Buddy Holly had a guitar, and so, you know, posing with a tennis racket in the in front of the mirror. I had to suffice for a while, but then I was very glad to get my hands on a real one.

So your father glued the guitar back together. Did you ever take lessons? I did?

Yeah, I took classical lessons for a couple of years, which was great. That really got my fingers working properly. I'm very glad to this day, I'm very glad that I did that.

And can you read music to this day?

I can't. I can, Yeah, I'm not particularly good read. I can write it fast than I can read it.

Okay, So if you're making a record, you ever write down charts.

Not usually, I mean sometimes we write you know, like like you know, a Nashville style chart, you know where you just you know, you have the bars and you have the you know the one called the four called the five chord get kind of shorthand charts. Really, if I'm bringing musicians in like a string quartel or something there that then I'll notate that properly.

Okay, So you're playing in the guitar, At what point do you start playing with other people?

Pretty quickly, as soon as I started, my friend who live around the corner started as well, so we took lessons together and I was like a week ahead of him, so I got to play lead and he played rhythm.

And when did you start forming a band or start playing out?

I think, yeah, well, I think when I was twelve. I think I was in a band, like an instrumental band. And I think when I was thirteen or we did our first show and that was also our last show because it was it was so bad experience traumatic that we basically broke up at that point. And then I

At what point in this story do you say this is going to be what I do for a living.

Almost at no point, really, you know, it wasn't a career choice. If you see interviews with the Beatles in ninely sixty four sixty five that they say, well, we'll do this another couple of years and then we'll move over. We'll just write for other people, you know, it wasn't a career choice. That there was no sense of longevity being in popular music. So I think we thought we'd do it for a couple of years. Really, I'm eighteen, nineteen twenty. At some point, I'm like twenty two, and

Did things ever get tough in you how to get a day job?

Not quite? Somehow I always managed to survive when I left school. I was a stained glass stained glass artist for a year. What we did graphic design and stained glass, and I worked at the Zoo for a while. But mostly, you know, I survived on music, and when I wasn't in a band, I could survive on playing sessions, studio sessions.

Okay, So, for lack of a better term, Fairport and those other racks were folk oriented. When you started in bands, were you playing that music or were you playing more rock and roll type stuff. I think.

Growing up in London listening to a wide range of music meant that I could play a wide range of music. I could play folk music, I could play rock and roll, I could play a bit of jazz, I could play classical, so I was kind of ready for anything, really, and when Fairport started, we really were a folk rock band and I was happy to play that. That seemed to me a great choice of music. And we love lyrics.

Okay, something that always fascinated me. We had a big folk movement late fifties early sixties in US, completely wiped off the map by the Beatles, and then in the late sixties there was the folk era from England, Fairport Convention, Steele, iye, span all these other acts. What caused that.

Becaused it? I think, well, you know, since the grammar phone, or maybe since like Stephen Foster, you know, a lot of UK music has been imported, and you know, songs like you know, Carolina Moon Keeps Shining that that you know that these songs were kind of romantic and almost

Well there's also Britange and Pentangle. To what degree were you out in the forest alone or were there other English bands pushing you forward and leading the way in this type of music?

Not really, no, I mean I think we thought Pentangle were more of a kind of folk slash jazz fusion band, if you like that, And we thought they were a bit wimpy, you know that they didn't play particularly loud, so we weren't influenced by by them. I mean, I love but yanch as a player, and I've seen him for years in folk clubs, and I love Danny Thompson, but we didn't really pay much attention to Pentangle. You know, all those guitar players David Graham, John Rambourn, Bert Yan

Okay, let's go back. You're going to clubs. What acts did you see rock clubs?

There was a great club called the Marquee Club, of course, in Soho, which started out as a jazz club, started by a guy called Chris Barber, and by about nineteen sixty five you had The Who playing there as in a residency, a little club like three hundred, three hundred people standing. Maybe you had the Yard Buds on Fridays were there at Clapton then with Jeff Beck, then with Jimmy Page lost the guitar players to go and watch their Spencer Davis group with Steve Winwood would play there.

Okay, when you saw these bands, all these bands went on to be household names, and certainly and who live at Leads they had the poster from the Marque when you saw them at the Marquis. Did you think they would be as big as they would become? Were they as good as they became?

In some ways? I think when the who were writing really great three minute pop songs before they became you know, you know, like an arena band or a stadium band. I think that they were just a great club band. And you know that they had a lot of visual stuff that they had all that great pop art ideas you know from people like Peter Blake. So that was very very exciting. And they played very loud and they would destroy their instruments on a regular basis, which is

Did you ever see the Beatles live?

No? I never did. I probably wouldn't have been able to hear them anyway. Reports say that you just couldn't hear a thing, but it sure was exciting.

And what about the Stones?

I saw the Stones quite early on. I didn't think they were very good. Actually I still don't think they're very good, but I think live that they're not that interesting. But they've made some great records. There's some absolutely definitive, wonderful rock records that that you know, pretty much set the standard for decades for other bands, which records what the things least like you know, Street Fighting Man, Brown Sugar, you know that generation of Stones records I think are

So in America started with the Beatles, and although the Stones were an element, we got all what was called the British invasion, everything from Herman's Hermits to Freddie and the Dreamers. What degree did they have impact? Were you paying attention to them in the UK?

Well, in the UK it was just like saturation, you know, especially the bands from the North, the bands from Liverpool and Manchester pretty much saturated that the charts for a long time. You know. All we could offer from the South was the Dave Clark five, which there made some good records, but they were not a good band at all. So you know, the Beatles, the Holly's, you know, the Mersey Beats, the Big Three, the Escorts, you know, all

So why did the innovation come from the North as opposed to the South?

Good question, I think because Liverpool is a seaport, you had sailors, American sailors bringing over records and perhaps you know, trading them in in in you know, in pawn shops and junk shops. So in Liverpool you could buy Motown records at a time when when they were harder to find in London. And obviously you know that the Beatles, for instance, started off doing some great covers. You know, you've got a hold on me things things like that, All these these great Motown and R and B records,

And I have to ask before we move forward, what about skiffle?

Skiffle? My god, yeah, interesting UK phenomenon. Why I asked myself, why was this skiffle? Very strange thing?

So?

I think because after World War Two kids didn't have any money, you know that there was there were these teenagers who were just impoverished. Things are still unrational, you know, through the fifties, you know, you like couldn't get sweets,

And let's go back to the clubs. You know, you talk about the yard Birds. They have clapped in, they have Page, they have Beck. Of course, you have John Mayle, you have Peter Green, Fleetwood Mac. To what degree did not only you go to see these these guitarists, were they influential to you?

Well, I learned how to copy those guys, and then I kind of rejected it, and I thought that this is an overcrowded world, the world of the the British blues man, you know, the Peter Greens and the Eric Clapton's, you know, and the Mick Taylor's, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I just said, well, I'm going to play something different, you know, I'm not going to be like

Okay, you form Fairboard Convention. How long do you play before you get hooked up with Joe Boyd?

Not very long, I think. I think I left school in May sixty seven. We were playing around the clubs that summer. I think it was something like September when we hooked up with Joe. Joe discovered us, Haha, as they say, so just a few months really, which is extraordinary in so many ways.

Well, you know a lot of bands in the US they formed and they said, oh, we got to get a record deal. Was that in Fairport Convention's mind? Or did Joe Boyd find you and then you got a record deal.

We weren't thinking about a record deal at all. We just thought we're thrilled to be playing anywhere, to be playing music, and to actually be an opening act for people like the Pink Floyd. I mean that was just staggering to us. They're just amazing. So Joe offering to record us felt amazing and we were very very excited. So how did Joe actually find you. Joe ran a club called the UFO Club in London. I think it

Okay, Well, you know, you make a record, you have to sign a deal. It involves money. To what degree were you conscious of that?

Yeah, Well, Joe had a relationship at that point with the Who's managers kittlee em Bird and Yeah, Lamberton Stanley, Yeah, and they had all so Joe just said, let's do

And in retrospect, how good a producer was Joe Boyd.

I think he was a very good producer. I would have to put him in the context of working with John Wood as an engineer. John Wood was a great engineer, and the combination of the two of them I think was excellent and led to great results. And Fairport Records act. I think the first record doesn't sound particularly good, but from the second record onwards, the records sound really good. You know, Sandy Denny records sound really good. Nick drect

Interesting act, Go back one step. How did the band actually come together? The first iteration of the band.

Yeah. I had a school friend who lived next door to Ashley Hutchings and the bass player in Fairport. And at some point Ashley's blue blues band, the guitar player was sick or something like it couldn't make a show. That's so I filled in for him. I filled in for another actually's bands. He had a jug band going as well, so I think I filled in for that

Yeah, how did you find Ian?

He was recommended me. He was in a bank called Pyramid. When Pyramid broke up, he was at a loose end and someone said, oh, that there's a band auditioning. You should go down, and I just came down to the studio. It wasn't really like an audition. Well, we were working on a song and he said, we just said, oh, sing some harmony on that song. So so he just kind of started working with us and that was it. Really that there wasn't any sense of audition or or

And how did Judy Devil get replaced by Sandy Danny?

Well, Judy, as I said, was really a focusinger who did better with a lighter accompaniment. She had a hard time singing over the volume of a band. So we asked Judy to leave. We auditioned for Sandy.

A little bit slow. How do you tell her she's out of the bit? Well, how does she react?

How does she react? She reacted? You know, how can you react that? You know, you've been playing with your friends for for a year or so and then suddenly they asked you to leave. It's it's a tough one, but we had to be realistic. We had to say, you know, your Judy, you know you're yeah, you're you're not singing in tune. You know, you're pushing too much

Did she have any status or she just some girl came in and sang. Were you aware of who she was prior to auditioning her.

Yeah, well we were aware of who she was. I'm not sure i'd ever seen her. She was singing mostly in folk clubs, but had a very good reputation in folk clubs, and you know, it was a friend of a friend of a friend and all that kind of stuff. You know, lots of social connections, but really, you know, it was a leap for Sandy, I think, and a leap for us as well. But it was something that

And at some point there's a car accident where our van accident where the drummer and your girlfriend are killed. Can you tell me about that?

Yeah, so that was sixteen nine. So we were traveling back from Birmingham to London, which about one hundred and twenty miles, something we did all the time. But we didn't stay in a hotel when we played Birmingam. We just drive back and our driver had been ill. He had an ulcer, so he hadn't been sleeping very well. Sandy traveled separately. She was traveling with her boyfriend. So you know, the van went off the road, somersaulted. It killed Jenny Franklin, who was my girlfriend at the time.

Well, how was it for you with your girlfriend passing away?

Well, it seemed unreal, you know in some ways, being twenty years old, it was my first experience of somebody dying and actually watching somebody die, So it was very tough and it took me a long time to get

And what were some of those bad decisions?

Bad decisions that people leaving the band actually actually left the band. Sandy left the band. I left the band, and I think given a different set of circumstances, it would have stayed together much longer. But it was all it's all a little upside down at that point.

And so was I in the first one to leave.

Yeah, Ian left, Yeah, it was the first one to leave. He was really into a different kind of repertoire, I should say. You know, he loved country rock, and when he left Fairport, he formed a band called.

Southern Comfort.

Southern Comfort, Yeah, and that was much more Ian's thing, and he kind of stayed in that style really for the rest of his career. And yeah, Ian's a great thing and he's still a great singer, and he's made some wonderful music over the years.

Ok Ian has a hit international hit with a cover of Woodstock Fairboard does not have a hit. Are you jealous or what do you think about that?

We didn't think hits were important at that time. It was really about albums in sort of nineteen sixty nine nineteen seventy to have a hit album would have been our ambition. And I think we had a couple that scraped the top ten in the UK. But you know, singles that was really for pop bands. You know what, We weren't paying attention at all to singles. Maybe a single would help you to sell an album. That was the virtue.

Okay, you're making album after album. Our finance is tight or is there enough to live and be?

Okay, we made cheap records back in those days. You know, a record wouldn't cost you that that much or you know, ten fifteen thousan pounds wasn't really a lot of money even then, so we were always in the studio and Joe would bankroll us anyway. If we needed funds to record, he kind of find money from somewhere and just stick it on our never ending bill. But we were always in the studio. We'd sometimes after shows, we'd drive back to London and go in the studio and just record all night.

And at what point did you start writing songs?

Well, I started co writing for the first Fairpoor album in sixty seven, and I think I co wrote because I didn't have the confidence to write something on my own. And I think in sixty eight I wrote a song called Meat on the Ledge, which was my first solo effort. And having done it, I kind of got comfortable with the idea. I thought, I, Okay, I can write lyrics. I can write the melody as well. This is fun. I love doing this. I'll do it some more, but I'm still doing it.

And at this late date, what's your process.

At the early day?

No, now today or you know, listen, you know you have all a billion things. People you know, write the music, then write the lyrics. Some people write it all at the same time. Some people go back the snippets they've recorded previously. Build a song brick by brick? How do you do it? Oh?

I do it? I do all of those.

Yeah.

Sometimes I write lyrics first, sometimes I write melody first. Sometimes it comes all at once. That that that's like a gift from God. That's wonderful. Uh. Yeah. I don't like to limit the possibilities. I like to give as many doors open to the creative process as possible. And you know, it's it's hard to define what the process is. Many have tried and most have failed.

So did you have any advanced morning that Sandy was going to leave the band? Or was that a shock?

I think Sandy was just in a bit of a state, you know, I think we all were. We weren't thinking rationally necessarily. Sandy could be fairly, you know, up and down in terms of mood. So and she hated flying. And we were on our way to some shows in Denmark which we had to fly to, and she wasn't on the plane. And I suppose she missed a few other shows before that. So so I think we thought that was the our straw, and wonderful though she was, maybe we could live without her.

Well. It certainly changed the character of the band. I mean, that was the first album. First time I saw the band with full house. Was there any thought that while we need to replace.

Her, Yeah, there were thoughts that we should replace her, but nobody really sprang to mind. So in a spirit of camaraderie, I think we just said, oh, we'll split the vocals between us, which especially what we did. So none of us felt we were the greatest singer in the world at that point, but well, we just divided it up. You know. We'd split songs sometimes into different singers,

So how did you decide to leave?

I mean, again, I think still some trauma from the accident. I wasn't thinking clear. It's like a gut reaction. I thought, well, I've been in band since I was twelve, you know, I want to do something on my own for a while. Really, that was all it was, you know, these people were my best friends. But I literally just couldn't go on. I just hit a wall. I'd had it, so I had to get out.

And at that point was it about playing sessions or cutting your own record.

I had ambitions to make my own record, but I survived on session work. I did a lot of session work for the next two years, which was great. I didn't even go looking for it. Just the phone started ringing a wonderful thing, and my diary started filling up, and that was great that that kept me going. Yeah, for a couple of years. But I've been accumulating songs and I thought I'd really like to put these songs

Can you tell us what it was like being a session musician in a couple of sessions you played.

On session musician? Well, first of all, it was nice because I was working with people mostly that I knew and producers that I knew. So, you know, I play on Ian Matthew's record, I planned Sandy Denny's record, and then I play on that kind of the folk rock records, singers and names I can't even remember. But you know, you get to know a producer and he'd say, can you come and do this session? And you say, okay, can you You know, that was great? Can you now

Okay, you make the first solo album, it certainly gets good distribution in the US. It's PND it first, then conventional wisdom changes. What was your experience of Henry the Human Flyer.

My experience, well, you know, I thought it was an okay record, and I was kind of alarmed at the reviews that it got, which were very negative, and at a certain point that they were so negative that I thought, well, I'm going to treat this as a positive. I'm going to think I've gone somewhere that people aren't ready for. I must be ahead of the game. How can people not understand this record? Yeah, the arrogance of youth. So I just thought, well, I shall persevere. You know, this

How do you meet Linda? When does it become a rong antique relationship? And when do you start making music together?

Okay, well, I think I met Lenda in sixty nine when we were making a Fairport record call Leigion Leave, and she was a friend of Sandy's, and we have Sundy's best friends really, and at a certain point we became romantically involved. And for about six months there or maybe longer, maybe it was a year, we didn't see

Okay, you made a number of albums with her, and the first one that really got noticed in the US was poured down like silver in seventy five, and then four albums after that, in eighty two, Shootout the Lights gets phenomenal reviews, and then the duo was over. So the period of time that you're with Linda, what was it like on the inside.

Well, you know, we're raising a family and trying to work at the same time, so we're always compromised to some extent, and we were never really able to do a US tour. We could never quite bring the whole family over or whatever, you know, travel with a nanny. Well, we didn't quite have the budget or the the inclination really at that point to tour America. So you know, touring was bits and pieces. Recording was bits and pieces where we're kind of throwing it together as we could

Okay, but when you know, the band breaks up or the act breaks up at the height of it's both commercial and critical success. I mean, all of a sudden you get these phenomenal reviews. It's the opposite of Henry the Human Fly. You know, is there anything well, I'm onto something. How do we maximize this?

Well, I don't know. I think you know, it was the end of our relationship. But yeah, we were married for ten years. We were in a musical relationship for ten years, and it was kind of you know, I think we've grown a part enough. You know that it was it showed, you know, it was significant enough to uh to break up. You know. Yeah, musical partnerships can be pretty finite as well, So it was just time, what can I say. And the lights were successful, I mean,

Now, at some point you get involved in Eastern religion here.

Sufiism, yeah, well a Sufism yeah yeah. Another band I knew, a band called Mighty Baby, who were good friends who actually I did a lot of session work with. Uh. It embraced Sufism. That that went to North Africa and they met a teacher there and they came back and I thought, oh that these guys are different. Well, what's going on? You know? So I kind of hung out with them and I thought, well, this is for me as well.

And at that point, is there a point where you stop your musical career.

There was a point where when I just felt like absolutely drained musically speaking, I had nothing left to offer. I was like empty on the inside, and I thought, well, I've got to stop for a while. I think it was at seventy six seventy seven, And you know, I ran an antique shop for a while. I had a little antique business which was moderately successful. But after a year I kind of got reinspired, you know. That's that. Then punk came along, you know that, the Sex Pistols,

So you make a couple of records with Joe Boyd. What's that experience like?

Really good? Well, Joe and I've always been friends and I've always admired Joe's uh, Joe's musical intelligence and ability to spot talent, all that kind of stuff, all the stuff you know you expect from people like you know, John Hammond Senior. Joe's a bit like that. You know, he could spot potential and I think he made such a difference to the British music scene in the sixties

And how did you end up working with Mitchell Frum after a couple of albums with Joe?

Well, at that point I was signed to Capitol Records. We had the same management, the same record label as Credit House, and my manager said, oh, you should hear this Credit House record. Mitchell Froom's has such a great job on it. You should have them on your record. And I love the Credit House record. I though it's fantastic, and I thought, well, if I can get you know, ten percent of that spirit on my record, that would be great, and I'm not sure that ever happened, but

Well, what was different working with Mitchell's supposed to Joe.

More quirky about sound. I think in a sense, you know, Joe was more naturalistic and he just kind of let things happen. He basically sit reading the baseball scores in the in the in the Herald Tribune and let things happen. Mitchell was a bit more hands on than that. And also between Mitchell and engineer Chair Blake, there was this idea of kind of garage to garage excuse me, that's you know, the stuff that sounds like it's been recorded low fi. And I think we we went in for

And then the rumor INSI album happens and there's a burst of energy in terms of acceptance on the exterior. What did it feel like on the interior?

Uh, it felt different. Well, you know, I was on Capitol Records, you know, for for a few albums, and then uh, there's a new head of the company comes in and the company kind of transforms and I actually get my records promoted, uh, which I can't say really happened much before that. But suddenly I have that the Capitol Records machine is working on my behalf as opposed to you know, everybody else's behalf. So that was the difference. Really.

So who signed you with Capitol Records? Originally?

Uh, good question. I can't remember.

Okay, but this was before hal.

Again, I can't remember.

Okay, how does it end with Capitol Records? For you?

There it ends, my contract ran out, hailed left by that time, my contract ran out, and basically they said, let's do a compilation album and goodbye. And that was fine. I was glad at that point because a lot of people were beginning to question the role of the major labels because you never seem to earn any money. And I think people thought, well, maybe, you know, if I work with an independent label or if I put out my own records, I'll see some return. And that did turn out to be the case.

Okay, do you receive any royalties from all the records you've done?

A streaming has basically killed royalties. Roches used to be half my income, half my income. That's recording rotter's and songwriting and royalties. It was about fifty percent of my income. It's now about two percent of my income. And that's down to you know, Spotify and or these companies paying you virtually nothing for putting your intellectual property out there, and people being able to do hundreds of thousands, but somehow it's millions of streams of your music and paying

Okay, let's go back, because you know the usual model of a record deal is they advance you money. They do or do not sell records, forget the creative accounting. But you're earning back at a very low rate. So there's some household named bands that are still in the red. So where did the royalties come from? The royalties come from the Fairport records, from the Richard and Linda records, from the solo records? What generated money forgetting the songwriting?

Just?

Were there ever any recording royalties?

Actually recording anti is? I probably make a bit from the really early stuff, from the Fairport stuff a bit, But I mean that these records that they turn over, but they don't they don't sell a lot, particularly you know, on a label like Capital. I enjoyed my time at Capital. But you get an advance from which you would make the record, and you pay your your manager fifteen percent, and you pay the lawyer probably ten percent for making the deal, and and and and you wouldn't end up

Okay, prior to streaming, literally, what was generating the royalty income? Sales? What was it?

Well, you know, records on independent labels. You know, I was on Joe Boyd's label for a while, Hannibal Records, and that I actually actually got paid for records, so that would be good. But mostly I'd be earning rossies from songwriting rather than performance, not that much from performance at all.

And the songwriting royalties that you were getting were from covers. Where was the money coming from?

From your own records and from covers, A mixture of things. And that's still the case, except the numbers are now are now tiny.

So when they were at their max, how much money were we talking about?

I'm not sure I should say, really was it six figures? Six figures could be okay a good year.

Okay, So now we're in this, you know, all these years later, a couple of decades on, we're in this internet streaming era. Needless to say, is you just said your royalties are down? Has streaming has the Internet benefited you at all? Or has it only been a negative?

Hard to quantify, but probably if people can stream your music, they might come and see you live, and live is the place you own money these days, and that's why everybody is out there playing live. Apart from that, it's a big negative. If I owned more of my own music, I would not put it on streaming services.

Let me ask you this. Let's say you own the music and you license it directly to the streaming company, which means you would get sixty odd sense okay, especially with songwriting, and you could sell physical copies, there would be some money there.

Right, Yeah, you might be overwriting what an artist actually gets from a streaming services. I get points zero zero zero six of a dollar.

I don't want to get into a long discussion of stream streaming royalties on demand pace different from radio streaming, blah blah blah. All I know is people who are a lot less famous than you, who are earning just because they own everything, are doing earning six figures from streaming companies. But let's forget that for now. So you made records that were independent, Now the new record is with new asked, do you have a feeling about making a record independently or as opposed to a company.

Well, I consider news to be like a bigger independent label, and they've been great for me. I did another record in New West. They've been great, They've been absolutely great.

Let me ask you a different question. You put out a couple of records on your own label. Yeah, what was that experience? Like?

It's good? I mean, it's that there's a lot to cover. It's hard work. You really do have to work at it. It's easy to put stuff up on bank camp, for instance, and then you do get a good return on it, but people have to find it, like most things on the internet that people have to actually find you. So a little promotion doesn't hurt. You can hire own publicists,

Okay, when you made independent records though in the last couple of decades, by time the cycle was done, were you in the black or the red?

I'd be in the black. I'd be in the black.

So why did you decide to go back just because it was so much work to do it yourself.

I don't know. Sometimes it's a matter of coordinating, coordinating, work with with your management, coordinate with your agent, can augizing work with the record company, and doing something that that can work, you know, give it given a balance of those elements. So sometimes you want something that has a bit more cloud to it to push a record, let people know it's there.

Okay, So this record that came out, did you cut it independently and then make a deal with New West or do you make a deal with New West and then make the record.

I made the record independently and then went to the record companies.

So you had enough cash in your coffers to do it yourself.

Yeah. I mean it's a cheap record. So tell me cheap in quality of course, ye?

Right right? Tell me how you did it, right, tell me how you did it, How I did it?

How amde it went into a studio.

Well let's go back. Okay, wait, wait, you get divorced, you get remarried, you have COVID, I mean the COVID period. Did you ever get COVID? Oh? Yeah, a couple of times. Yeah, okay, so serious, So when do you decide you're going to make another record, because no one, you don't have a contract, No one's breathing down your throat. When do you decide I want to do it?

Well, we figured that we couldn't really go into the studio during COVID, so we had to wait that out. So I made a couple of things at home in my home studio. But then I had a lot of material that I really wanted to get out there, you know, get it off my chest. So I discussed that with my management and I said, you know, I was living in Woodstock at the times, and so I said that there's this really good studio in Woodstock I'd like to use. So we arranged for the musicians to fly in from

So when it's all said and done, how much did it cost you?

I'm not sure? I actually don't know. Okay, not a lot cheap.

Okay. So the manager you presently have he is or she is.

Well, I'm with a company called Vector Management and My manager is Brad.

Okay, how long have you been with Vector Effect?

For about ten years?

So what can you tell us about managers?

Let's say about managers. There's almost as many kinds of managers as there are human beings. I mean, there's a huge range there. I've had managers who were kind of screamed down the phone style, you know, old school, old school. I've had managers who take far too high a percentage. The nice thing about Vector is they're a big enough company that if you do want to do something like get on TV, they could probably do it for you. That they could probably get you on the late night

That they are.

So you know, there are reasonable human beings. That they like music that's important, and that they look out for my interests, which is what I need from my management, is you know, people who care about you and look out for you.

And what about agents.

I have a wonderful agent in the States, Frank Riley, who's been major now for like like twenty years, who again, you know, things career. He doesn't just just book me because the money is there. He'll think, Okay, you shouldn't play this market too often, you know, let's go back in another year or two. Just you know, a smart guy, a very respected agent, and he's been wonderful. We have a great relationship.

Okay. Needless to say, the business has changed radically from when you first started. Okay, when you first started, there were a limited number of albums released a year. I remember in the early seventies when I went from twenty five hundred to five thousand albums, people say, oh, that's way too many. Now i'm streaming services, they'll get sixty thousand tracks a day. So from making the music, A lot of your contemporaries don't make any new music. A

True?

Does it the landscape affect you mentally and creatively? Knowing no matter what you do, because nobody reaches everybody anymore, it's not like the sixties or seventies. How does that affect your motivation? I can't help doing what I do. I can't help writing songs. I can't help being creative. I can't help it. I'm driven by something. God knows what it is, but I have to do it. I'm not a happy human being if I don't do it.

And I've had this conversation with with other singer songwriters of my age, who say, what's the point. What's the point of me making music? What's the point of me putting out records? Nothing ever happens? You know, my audience doesn't seem to get any bigger, you know, I you know, I break even, you know what, what's the point? And and I kind of agree with them, except for that fact that I can't stop doing it. I have to do it, uh, you know. And my audience it doesn't

Okay, are you doing anything actively you as an individual to promote or grow the audience? Are you on social media? Are you doing anything else? Or are you doing it essentially the same way you've always done it.

I'm talking to you right now.

Well, okay, and other people.

I do promotion. I go on you know, podcasts, and I go on websites, and I physically turn up at radio stations and I do all that stuff. Besides playing shows, I do promote. And I suppose that after COVID, in some ways it's easier because in the old days, I used to expect you to to get on a plane and visit two or three cities a day, you know, to promote yourself and visit all these radio stations. Now I can do it from home. I just could be at one place and I can talk to a lot

So you know, you make records. Everybody who's creative. You know you're never going to do something bad. You've had your chops. You've been doing it for so long. But when you do something that's great, and artists know when they do something that it's great, can't have an eleven with every attempt. But when you do something great and not much happens in the marketplace, is that disillusioning?

Not at this point, No, it doesn't accept it. I accept it. I'm a seventy five year old artist and I'm not catered for by popular media anymore. So I do what I do. If I end up playing, you know, in you know, assisted living facilities, you know, to fifteen people, I'm still going to do it because I love to do it. I love to perform. I love to communicate music to people. This is stuff I love doing, and it's not going badly for me. It's actually it's actually

Okay, so you're telling me your audience is replenishing and it's growing, but you really don't know what's causing.

The No, I don't know. I do what I do. I put the energy out there, and I figure if you do that, then it comes back in some form and maybe it's not the form you're expecting that, but it does come back eventually.

And how many gigs do you do a year?

A year? One hundred?

And is that the right number? Would you like to do more or fewer?

I might have to do less, I'm funny. It harder to travel, so I might cut down to seventy five or even fifty. I mean, I mean I've done that. You know how many things I've done in my life, like five thousand or something. It's a it's a lot of shows, but I love it. I love it.

Okay, So do you love every gig? Or you playing some of the songs thinking about are you going to be late for the plane? This is a shitty hotel?

Yeah, oh, you just deal with that stuff. You know, shitty hotel, You think, well, tomorrow will be a better hotel. You know, a bad sound system, You think, well, you know, what can you do? You know, if the audience can hear you that, then you know tomorrow's another day. You know you're something better. But there's always stuff on the road. There's always you know, flight delays and you know snowstorms and god knows what. But you just deal with that stuff.

Well, I'm actually going about the gig itself, the hour you're on stage.

Yeah.

Is it always rewarding? Sometimes not as rewarding? Does it depend on the audience?

Uh? The audience is usually good. There's there's really a bad audience. Rarely a bad audience, and maybe one gig in four you're thinking. This is a struggle. And it's usually done to the sound more than anything else here. You know, you can't hear yourself on the stage. There's too much blowback come from the back of the pa or something. So everything just sounds a little like it's underwater. You know that there are shows like that some nights

And are you concerned at all about legacy?

Legacy? No, it couldn't go less.

So if you walk off this mortal coil and no one remembers you, whether than the people from your generation, that's totally fine with That's okay.

My legacy are my kids who play music, and they play music very well, and I'm happy to pass the baton to my children.

And how often do you play the guitar.

Every day? Some days I'm Some days I'm traveling all day and I can't play the guitar. Sometimes I just can't find the time to physically get my hands on it. But most days I play something. Some days I play like eight hours, you know, other days I play half an hour.

And when you're doing that, you're noodling or you're rehearsing. What are you doing whole stuff?

I mean, sometimes I'm just keeping my fingers working, pressing scales, that kind of stuff. Sometimes I'm working ideas for songs. That's usually what I'm doing, working on ideas for songs, how to come up with the best accompaniment for a song, or finding a melody for a song.

And you have it as dollar reputation as a guitarist, to what degree do people track you down and say, hey, I want to work with you, work with me not interesting? Well, I mean, at the end of what I'm I'm saying, come play on my record something like that.

Come play my record if I got time, Yeah, sure, absolutely. Mostly I play on you know, people, whether it's some connection, whether it's a friend of a friend or an actual friend making a record. You know, my son just asked me to plan his record. That's great. I'll do that one. Sometimes I get too many offers to do that.

Actually, Okay, all these years later, your ex wife Linda put out a record you're involved with that Fairport does these annual celebrations you've appeared there? Does time heal all wounds or were relationships pretty much steady the whole time? Well?

I get on fine with Linda. That's nice. I'm happy to contribute it to her record. I think it's done very well. It's a good record. Actually, lots of great contributors to that record, Fairpol. They're like brothers. You know. Maybe you don't see them every day, but when you do see them, you get that old connection comes back. It's lovely. I'll see them next weekend. I'm going to play at the Properly Festival Forwood's Festival, and that'll be great to see everybody. Be absolute blast.

And how many guitars do you own?

I try not to own too many, but I probably owned twenty maybe thirty. I don't know. I like to play them. I don't know to sit in the cupboard neglected. So if I don't play a guitar, I'll try and get rid of it. But yeah, not too many. I'm not in the Keith Richard class.

And what are a couple of your favorites.

Well, I kind of like fenders. I suppose electric guitars. I've got a bunch of Fenders, probably my oldest is about fifty nine. Acoustics. I play Loudons that made in Northern Ireland, wonderful guitars. I've probably got half a dozen of those. But you know, they're all wonderful tools. You know, I don't treat them too reverentially, but that they are essential tools of the trade.

And if you go on the road, will you take your favorites with you or say they're too valuable?

Favorites too valuable? I'll take my really good road guitars, which are excellent. I'm very happy with.

And how about the amps amps?

I have a variety of As you know, I play a lot of Fender amps, and if I don't take my own, I'll hire Fender amps. I'm happy with Vox as well. Fox. I see fifteen's and stuff I've got nam called Divided by thirteen, which I use mostly on stage. It's kind of weird. It's got hybrid amp, which is absolutely wonderful. You know, But again, tours of the trade.

And you play solo, at least when I've seen you in the past years. Is that just economically the only way you could do it? Would you rather play with the band or you like doing it solo?

Playing with a band is expensive and if I break even, I'm doing well. So that doesn't happen all the time. Well, we're going out in October November this year with the band in the States. Solo, I can earn a living, and so probably two thirds of what I do is solo.

And then you were coming up in a very vibrant scene in terms of music today. Is there anything happening for either all players or young players that you find interesting and stimulating.

There's always good players. I'm not sure that that always get recognized. I'm not sure the industry is geared to innovation or originality. I think you know, people tend to get signed if they sound like everything else. That that's the sad truth of it. Madison Cunningham I like a lot. I think she's a really good guitar player. She's got a great band, nice arrangement ideas, not nice quirky songs.

And these new artists that you do find that you do like, but you actively searching for them, or do people say, hey, you got to hear this? Oh?

I think a combination of both. Yeah. I think I often recommendations because there's so much out there that you kind always find the stuff you know you would like, So recommendations are very important.

Okay, so let's go back. You're the observer. You're one step removed. Do you think that makes you different or are we all one step removed whether we recognize it or not.

Is it a good thing to be able once? I don't know if it's a good thing. I think as an artist you can't help it. You have to be that little bit away. Sometimes you can't help it. That doesn't mean you can't be a social human being. You can't feel an integral part of the human right. But I think sometimes you do feel like a bit of an alien somehow.

So you're in the city, you may not even be talking to anybody, you're walking down the street. Do you feel different from everybody else? Or you feel like you're just like everybody else.

I don't know. I feel that like a you know, like like a I feel like an individual. I think most people do feel like individuals. But I think I interact well with other people. When I'm walking down the street. Sometimes I'm just in my own space that I'm in my own world, which is usually musical walking on the streets, sometimes I just you know, I hear melodies and you know, lyrics and stuff invading me.

It's it's so, if I put you down with a group of musicians, are you going to find commonality or are you going to feel separate in that environment?

If you spend long enough, that's it. I think you're always going to find commonality, but it could take a while. It could take a while.

And what about if I take you for a meeting with business people, are you always going to feel these are not my people?

Probably? Yeah, yeah, But people in suits kind of worry me. I must say I've always had that attitude. I wear a suit as little as possible.

And you know, in the sixties they said music could save the world. What's your viewpoint on music in general today?

Well, it did save the world. It happened already to save the world. Music today, Well, I'd like to think it can save the world. I'd like to think that my music could change something. Who knows. But I'm not going to write an overt political song at this point. But but you know, music changes people. Listening to music changes people. It changes people's hearts. It softens people's hearts, it hardens people's hearts, it opens people's hearts. Music is

How did it save the world once?

How did you change the world?

How did you said that music did save the world? Well, I can experiment.

I think in the sixties it did. Did it did for me anyway? Yeah, it was a whole revolution in the sixties, really a social revolution. I means it was a huge component of that. But you know, it didn't necessarily last, and it was necessarily lays sincere, but it did change the world.

Okay, most people who this deep into the podcast are very familiar with you and your music. But for those who are not, something most artists don't like to do is sell themselves. But if you were going to explain yourself and your music to someone completely unfamiliar, what would you say?

Ooh yeah, tough question. What would I say? Well, I'd probably be self deprecating and mumble and basically say nothing about myself. But if I had to, I'd say I was a singer, songwriter, guitarist somewhere between Celtic and rock, and I've been doing it for the last fifty five years. That's it.

Okay, that's a raw description. And then I might ask the question what makes you different? Are you special from other people in that category?

I honestly don't know. I don't know what makes me different. I think everybody has a different accumulation of music that they've listened to in their lives, and in that sense, everyone is different. Everyone expresses different things when when they express music. You know, someone who only listen to you know, A C. D. C. And Beethoven and Charlie Parker is going to express things very differently from someone who's only listened to you know, the birds and Stravinsky and uh

Okay, Richard, I want to thank you for taking this time with this audience. I would like to go deeper into your earlier points about the dinner table and who would you want to have dinner table. That will be another time, but thanks a lot for taking the time.

Thank you well, thank you so much for your time.

I do appreciate until next time. This is Bob left sets