Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. My guest today is Rich Robin Show of the Black Crows, who have a new album, A Pound of Feathers.
Rich, why that title the Black Crows?
Ha ha, No pound of feathers.
Oh, pound of feathers? Oh well, it was a you know, it was a lyric of Chris Is in one of the songs. At the end he sings a pound of feathers and a pound of or a pound of lad and you know, it just kind of one of those things that's stuck. You know. We always try to sneak a bird, you know, a bird reference in there every once in a while.
So who decided that was the title? You or your brother?
Chris brought it up, and it was me. Chris and our manager talked about it, and we my manager and I liked pound of feathers, and Chris had another one that I can't remember what it was, and so we kind of chose pund of feathers.
So, you know, we live in a totally different world today. There are a lot of acts of your avingteage. You don't even make new records. How do you decide that it's time to make a new album.
You know, Chris and I have always written. I write all the time. Chris writes lyrics all the time. He's got notebooks and notebooks of lyrics. And so basically the way it works with him and I is that I'll I'll send him musical pieces. Some of them are full songs, some of them are you know, a verse and a chorus or whatever it may be. And then whatever he whatever pulls something out of him, whatever inspires him, is what we tend to make a song, you know, And
so we just I believe in making records. I still believe in making out full albums. I don't I don't adhere to the new record label kind of philosophy of let's make an EP or let's do a single. It's just like make a fucking record. I mean, it's you know, it's a piece, it's a whole thing. There's a journey on a record. The sequences art is an art form. The way the songs work together is an art form.
The way the the recording and all of these different elements are creative elements of what I do and what we do as a band, and what Chris and I do as writers and it's still valid to me, you know what I mean. And so we make a record when we're ready to, when we have songs, we're ready to go in and you know, bust one out.
So you say you're constantly coming up with a musical idea in the plural. So do you play the guitar every day?
I don't necessarily play the guitar every day, but when i'm it kind of depends on where I am. If I'm on tour, I have a guitar in my room. If I'm at home, I have a studio at my place in Tapanga, and I mean I'm in upstate New York, I have, you know, three guitars up here if I want to mess around. But I don't make it a mission to play guitar. But I always pick one up, and I'm always I'm always inspired to pick it up.
Like I've always believed that if you pick up an instrument when you want to, you're always going to be happy about it instead of like, oh it's you know, it's two o'clock, I have to sit down and do my scales or whatever it may be. I'm more interested in in that inspiration, you know, So I play you know, I have drums at my house. I play bass and drums and guitar, and you know, have some keyboards, and I love to be in the studio and make stuff and so a lot of times I'll just put together
whole songs for Chris and send them to them. And but this record was a little bit different. You know. We decided to use the studio as a tool to write. So I had about twenty five or thirty things I sent to him, and he chose, you know, twelve or fifteen that he liked, and then we went in and kind of saved the arrangement for the studio. And a lot of times certain things will spark other things, which then lead to other things. And that's what's really cool about it.
Let's go back a step. What do you do in upstate New York?
I have five kids, and there's a school up here. They're a school burned down last year in the Palisades and they go to a specific school. It's called the Waldorf School. And the two big Waldorf schools in Los Angeles burned down. There was one in the Palisades and there was one in Altadena. And we had been up here before because we love the area. It's gorgeous. But we you know, my wife's from LA, so we moved out to La. Kind of lived between Nashville and LA.
But we just bought about eighty acres up here, and we're going to build a house and maybe live on both sides of the of the continent or of the country.
I mean relative to California. New York is a small state, but by the East Coast standards, New York is a large state. How do you decide where you want to buy land. I'm not looking for your address, but generally speaking.
Well, I mean, I like trees, and I like I mean, I grew up in Atlanta, so we had, you know, we had a lot of being on the East Coast. There's seasons, there's you know, I lived in outside of New York for like fourteen years. I lived in the city for a couple of years, and so and I used to go up to Woodstock all the time, make to make records and to you know, just to be there because I love it. It's you know, the Catskills and the Berkshire. So I'm kind of the property I bought
is right in between the Catskills and the Berkshires. We have views of boat which is just beautiful. It's peaceful, you know, it's just it's amazing. And about three or four families from La moved here too to send their kids to the school, and so we have friends here as well.
Okay, so how many kids are living with you? Now?
Five?
So you all five kids? What's the oldest.
Fifteen? And the youngest is five? And then have I actually have seven kids, but two of them are older. One's twenty nine and one's twenty five. So my younger bunch, they all live here at home.
So the older ones, what are they up to?
My oldest one, his name's Taylor. He went to Occidental and studied. He studied a form of AI consciousness that I think it was kind of a curriculum that he wrote himself, and he majored in that. And then he minored in acting and minored in speaking Russian. So he learned the Russian language, and he was really interested in teaching. So he moved to Russia for two years. He lived in Saint Petersburg teaching English, and I kept sending I kept sending him things like, hey, you know, maybe you
should think about getting out of there. Things are getting weird, you know, as the build up was going, and he was like, no, that's just Western propaganda. They're not doing anything. And literally randomly, it was just random. He flew home and the day he flew home, Putin invaded Ukraine while he was on the plane flying home to see his mom, and he got he landed. He's like, I can't believe
that happened. I'm like, yeah, I've been telling you. There's you know, one hundred thousand troops on the Ukrainian border. So he moved to Georgia, the country. So he moved to Tubilisi for like six months to a year, and then he moved to Turkey because he has a Russian girlfriend and she couldn't get a visa to a lot of these places. And then they wound up in Argentina for a couple of years. And now he's back in Chicago and he goes to Northwestern School of Journalism.
Okay, did you ever go visit him in these places?
I never visited him in He came to visit, like when he was in Russia, he and and his significant other came to visit us in Amsterdam. But I've I mean, I've been to Russia but not while he was there. It was a lot more of a hasshole to get over there because we were that's when we were starting our touring, and then literally COVID hit, so he moved there.
I saw him in February January, February of twenty twenty and that and then he went home, and then I came home, and then the world shut down, and so he was literally stuck in Saint Petersburg for two years.
Okay, what's the twenty five five year old up to.
He's in a band called the Sunday Mourners and he lives in LA He's I think he's either just he just graduated or finished his term in December. He was going to Chapman but he's His band's great and they just opened for the OCS. They did some shows with X they did they're doing. They did a full tour of the Midwest, and I think in the maybe the summer of the fall. I can't remember what they're planning,
because they want to go to Europe. They have a single out and record out and they have a lot of interest from labels and booking agents, so I think they're going to go over to the UK and do a full tour over there, and they're going to do East coast down into the South again in the States. So their band's great. He's the singer.
What is your philosophy young kids who've graduated from college and being on the payroll, not being on the payroll.
I want them to be happy and fulfilled and if and if that makes him happy and he can do it, and he can you know, he can provide for himself, then I think it's an amazing thing, you know what I mean. I always show my support, but I never get involved. You know, Chris and I and you know we're not involved. You know, Chris doesn't get involved with his kids, and like in the sense of like pushing for things. I think he's very similar in that way.
I will always be there to help if they need it, but I don't want to like insert myself and what their trajectory may be or what they have plans for.
Well, your older son is going to journalism school at Northwestern. That's a big chunk of change. Is he paying for that? Are you paying for that?
We pay for that, the parents. But he's it's a year it's a year program. So he's you know, he's doing. I'm really proud of him. It's one of the best journalism schools in the world.
Okay, does the one who's in the band, does he ever call up and say, I'm sure, can you send me, you know, one thousand or three thousand dollars?
He does other jobs, like he he models, and like he does other things outside of the band to kind of help him. He works at a record store. Like he's got his whole thing down. He lives within his means, so he's cool to exist. You know.
So their mother, when did you get involved with their mother?
In nineteen ninety two? Okay, she was twenty and I was twenty three or twenty four. I was twenty four.
Is this somebody, because you know, Black Crows basically started to blow up in nineteen nineties. Is someone you knew before that or you met subsequent to No.
I met her at a show. Actually a friend, a kind of acquaintance, brought her to the show and we saw each other and we were together for twelve years and had two kids. So that ended because just I think we were too young and I was gone a lot and she it's just you know, it's that age old story. We grew apart, you know what I mean. I think that's really all it was.
So if your kid said I want to get married at twenty three, you would say.
What I would say, Luckily they're both past twenty three.
Well they're coming up. We got five coming up.
Yeah exactly, I would say. I mean, look, I could you know, I can always give my like this is what happened to me, but this age twenty three, this is your life too, So you're going to have to make this decision. But I would, as someone who went through this, I would have to tell you that this is something that can happen and you have to you have to really look at it for yourself. But I'm not the type of person to like force an agenda or force them into something that they may not. I mean,
you know, look, life is life. Kids don't listen to their parents. I never listened to my parents, and it's just the way it is, you know. And so I would, like I said, I'm always there to be like, hey, this didn't really pan out for me. So if you want to take that chance, go ahead, you know, okay?
And when did you meet your prison significant other?
I met her in two thousand and she and we were together in five or six, I think it was six, but we were together. Yeah, we've been together ever since.
Okay, did you just end up with five more kids or did you want a big family?
I you know, it's tough when you go through a divorce and you don't you know, you instantly get moved to almost like a visiting uncle status. At least back then, that's how it was, where it's like you get to see your kids every other weekend and on Wednesdays or whatever. And that that was just like the the way that the divorce industrial complex tended to work, you know what I mean. It was like, this is what it is.
I had to travel because I was working, and I still had to pay for everything, and that's what it was. And so obviously I missed so much, you know, but I also love kids and I love having kids, and so you know, I just I just kind of go with it. You know. I don't have a ton of you know, we never really had a ton of planning going on, you know what I mean. It wasn't like, let's sit down and have five kids and this is
what we're going to do. We would you know, have kids and we would be thrilled about it, you know what I mean, that's how.
It was, okay, So you know, it's funny. I was talking to Stuart Copeland and he has seven kids, and he says, you never really know what you're going to get. They all have their own personality.
What's your experience one hundred percent? And they come out, man, I mean, there's so many things that when they come out, there's certain there's already bits of their personality that are
already there one hundred percent. It's amazing, you know, it's like, really it's so far out to see and then to watch them grow and then watch those things that are these you know, I don't know, these strong sort of urges in their personality, and then they integrate into a larger personality as they get older and older and older. It's really amazing. I mean, my teenager, my fifteen year old, he was he has a lot of the qualities that he had when he was a kid, but now he's
getting into the grumpy teenage sort of face. So it's I don't know how much of that is kind of clouding the positivity of his youth, but I think it's still in there because it comes out everyone in all.
So what intrigues you to invest and have them go to Waldort schools? What's that about.
It's a specific way of looking at the world. It's more of an analog way of looking at the world. Like I still, although there's technology all around, I still believe in the analog way of looking at life and looking at the world and making music and you know, everything I do, I would prefer to do it that way. Then, I think if you have that base of being able to exist, I mean I tell them all the time, like you need you need to learn how to be bored,
because being bored can be an incredibly rewarding thing. I mean, that's where a lot of I mean, that's where creativity comes from. That's where the creativity is but was born from, you know, a lot of times instead of having something constantly in your face entertaining you twenty four to seven, to just sit back and do some reflection and look at the world in a different way. And so they do these things. The way they teach is more of a holistic way of teaching. They teach about, you know,
like thetle in their younger grades. They you know, they bake bread and they cook things and they make things, and they want it to be like the normal sort of rhythm of life, to just be present in the classroom, just to be able to smell bread being cooked or go out here. They're encouraged to use their imaginations and
they're really they try to be strict. It's hard in today's world, but there's a no media sort of thing where you're not really supposed to watch movies or TV or devices, and we thought it would be a great thing for our kids, you know.
Okay, so now we live in this technological world. To what degree do you restrict their device use, screen use?
Well, when we're at home, we only allow them to, like they're going to watch some stuff, but we have a TV and we make them watch movies. You know, we really try no YouTube. None of them have you know, social media, and you know, my older son kind of sneaks into it sometimes, but the younger kids, they don't have social media and they can't, you know, other than when we travel they have iPads to just because traveling is can with five is pretty chaotic. But you know,
when we land, that's it. Those things go up and they have to either watch a movie or play outside or do whatever.
So what point do they get a phone.
I don't know, that's it. I mean my fifteen year old got one a couple of years ago, so he was like thirteen, I think when he got a phone. So we try to push it to that, you know. I mean, I would say even later, but you know, sometimes the fighting to get one. I mean, you know, when he was in la they were going to a different school. He was going to a different school in Malibu, and all the kids had phones, and it was just kind of like everyone's got a phone but me. You know that kind of thing.
Okay, you know, you have five kids, and you have two older kids who were out of school, but you know there were some expenses here. You feel the financial pressure to work and make the money.
I mean yeah, I mean we go out and to our and I'm really fortunate to be able to do that and take care of everyone. But my older kids they're pretty I mean they're pretty self sufficient, you know. Like I said, my twenty five year old, he's you know, he does has he works at a record shop, He'll do this stuff. He does a little modeling. He makes a little bit of money. My older son has like
five jobs when he's not in school. He's really he's got a strong work ethic and so he doesn't want to rely on us.
You know, So how many boys and how many girls of the younger five and do they get along?
Four boys and one girl?
Where's the girl in the hierarchy?
She's the second youngest. Okay, so she's seven, but she kind of rules the roost, you know. She she screams like nobody's business. She's she can control, she can control what's happened, like she's so smart. She gets in on it quickly and understands what's happening and can can traverse.
You know. She's the most like my dad, which is amazing, you know, which is funny because my dad and my grandmother in particular, were really charismatic people like my dad and Chris were a lot of like my grandmother was just like them. You know. She was a really far out lady, you know, just ahead of her time. And so my daughters like that, and she just kind of rules everyone in the house, puts them in their place, and she's amazing.
Okay. I mean there have been legendary battles between you and your brother. That's your first hand, you know, growing up experience. Now that you have kids, do you think that's just a nature of siblings or was there something special about the to you that caused friction.
I mean, I think in a sense it's the nature of siblings. Although my older two GID kids always got along a lot better than Chris and I and my younger kids. You know, my fifteen year old's a little annoyed by everyone. He can't stand being around the little kids. He's just like those kids annoying me. I can't be around them. But there's also a cushion there because they have other siblings to go to. With Chris and me, it was just the two of us, and it was
also a different time. There was a lot of like just deal with it, like you just have to deal with what's in front of you. And I think today there's a lot more negotiating room for people to deal with one another, you know, And so back then, I think that's really what it was. Chris, you know, it was always the you know, kind of ringleader. He always drew like kind of dictated what we would all do.
We had cousins and we had people that were around, but you know, I once we started writing music, writing songs together. It always worked, but there was always a push and pull because I have I have very strong ideas about music and where I need where I think it needs to go, and he has strong ideas about what he wants, and so I think that's where a lot of the stuff would come from. You know a lot of those you know, battles that we would get into.
Let's go back to your father. Tell me about him being so charismatic? What was up with him?
He was just I mean to this day there's people in Atlanta. You know, he passed away in twenty thirteen, so to this day in Atlanta, like, we'll go the other I was there a couple of years ago and I had to go do laundry somewhere and we were on tour and I was like, oh, well this place will do I remember my you know, like this is where dad used to go at whatever. And I went in there and the woman was like, oh, your Stan Son.
You know his name was Stan Robinson. And I was like yeah, and then like two other people in the laundry at I was like, I remember Stan. I love that guy. You know, that's just how he was. Like everyone remembered him. Everyone loved him. He was funny, you know, he was. He was just gregarious. He'd walk into a room, he knew everyone's name. He knew, you know, every matre d at every restaurant. He would go to every waiter he knew. He just knew everyone. He was. He put
himself out and that's how he was. He was always that way.
And how do you earn his living?
He was He was a musician in the late fifties, when he was about eighteen, he had a hit called Booma Dip Dip and it was on it was top forty or whatever. He was on the Alan Fried Show and Dick Clark Show. We found footage of him on the Dick Clark Show actually, And then he got into acting off Broadway or like, he tried out for the Traveling Troop of for West Side Story, and then he
did some things here and there. He did some commercials and then he wound up coming back to Atlanta and he started a fote group called the Appellachians and they they were on like I think they were on ABC, Paramount Records, and they toured around the South there. You know, he actually played at the Rhyman and when Chris and I play there there's a plaque downstairs of him or
a mention of him. And so, but later he kind of went down the road of my dad, of his dad and his mom, and they were in the you know, the clothing business took yeah, exactly, and his so his dad, I was, he was a traveling salesman. And my grandmother started a children's clothing company in Atlanta, this place called the Merchandise Mart. And so she was one of the
first women to start her own business. And she had her own showroom and down there, and she grew it into a sizable thing, and then Dad took it over. You know. Dad went into that after the after we were born and the music kind of just you know, it wasn't working out the way he wanted. He went into started working for clothing companies and then he found finally started working with my grandmother and then took that business over. So he sold children's clothing for years.
So at what point did his family come from the old country.
They came after World War One from Poland, which is what we were told, and they were Rabinowitz and they were naturalized Robinson and they came through Ellis Island.
And your grandparents were born overseas.
No, my granddad was, my grandmother was so ike was Jewish, came from a Jewish family, but my grandmother was Baptist, so her dad and her dad and first husband were both Baptist ministers. And so how those two met up, I have no I have no idea, but you know, she was our bubby. We called her Bubbs. You know, she was like Bubby we called her. But you know, we grew up. Dad had two older half siblings from her name was Tatsi from I mean that was her nickname.
Her real name was Thetis, but they called her Tatsi uh, And then we called her Bubby. But you know, she had you know, she had two kids from an older from her first marriage, and then they were my dad's half siblings. And I think there was like a fourteen year difference.
So how did your father meet your mother?
They met at a party and Buckhead in Atlanta, and I remember them driving us by the house and they're like, that's where your dad and I met. You know, my mom would say she was a stewardess for Eastern Airlines.
Wow.
And she moved down to Atlanta from Nashville, her and her two sisters and they all I think they all flew for Eastern you know, and so that's how they got to Atlanta. Then her and dad met and then we started, you know that they started the family.
Okay, was it an instant romance between them?
I guess, I mean, you know they do that generation doesn't talk too much about that kind of stuff typically, you know what I mean. So I mean Mom said it was you know, Mom said that there was instant they were kind of together, but then she was like when they first had Chris, it was a little harder for them, and then they everything smoothed out and then they kind of went. But they got divorced in ninety three, so you know, they were together for twenty eight years or something like that.
Okay, they got divorced. Did either of them or both of them get remarried.
No, Well, my dad, my dad got married, but I think it was for like a couple of months and then it just didn't pan out and then he split up.
I went to college with somebody whose parents divorced when he was in his late twenties, and it fucked them up. So what was your experience?
You know, it didn't mess me up too.
Bad.
I mean, you know, they were unhappy. I think you know, again, I always take a you know, I always take more of a like it's their life, I and that's you know, they're still here. It changes the dye dam slightly, but
it is what it is kind of thing. So to me, it was just like part of life, you know what I mean, this thing happened, it changed a little bit, but they were both cool and then later they became more like friends and they would talk to each other and kind of could lean on each other a little bit. So it wasn't you know, it sucks to watch your parents go through that. It sucks to watch, especially our mom go through that because it was dad who kind
of initiated the whole thing. But you know, but again, like you can't help how you feel. You can't help who you love. And if you if if it's hard to be around each other, then you know, then it shouldn't. You shouldn't be around each other, you know what I mean, That's how I saw it.
So how much of a Jewish influence was there in the family growing up.
We had? I mean there was a good amount, because I mean, you know, culturally, there was a lot we had cousins in Atlanta. Our uncle Saul owned a bike shop in Atlanta. It was Cohen's Bike Shop, and he was my granddad's either his cousin or his I can't I don't know there was a relation there. And I can't remember if it was his cousin or his brother, because I know I sister or no, maybe it was
his brother in law because my sister married him. So and they and so we would go to their house, and you know, we kind of grew up going and I mean it was an interesting life Chris and I had because we did have No one ever pushed religion on us, but there was there was a religion around us, you know what I mean, or like like culture or religion,
and so you know, we were around it. You know, we went to the family functions, we interacted with everyone, and so it was it was kind of there through osmosis, you know, in that sense. I mean Dad was going to convert, but then he had a fight with his rabbi. Then he bailed out. He said so, and he always said because his dad was Jewish and his mom was Baptist, he became a druid.
So, but your mother is not Jewish.
Nope, she she I mean for a minute, like for a couple of years, she kind of went she was a Lutheran because her sister was a Lutheran. But then I don't know, I guess it wore off, you know what I mean. She may she took made Chris and I go to church a couple of times, but it
was like, I don't know, a handful of times. Dad wasn't into it at all, and so Dad was like, you know, don't make him go to church, and we kind of I don't know what the impetus for everything was, but we went in and got out pretty quickly.
Okay, we're exactly do you grow up in Italanta? How far from the city center was your neighborhood like subur what was the story?
We were in the suburbs. So when we were born, Chris and I were born in Buckhead, which is part of the Atlanta downtown like the city Atlanta city proper. But then Dad got a job we moved to Charlotte, North Carolina for two years, and then we moved back out into the suburbs. And it was a suburb called eas East Cobb County, and it was about thirty five minutes from the city, you know, thirty five to forty minutes tops. And that's you know, I mean I was
fourth or fifth grade when we moved there. I think it was fourth grade, so it was fourth through twelfth grade we lived there, you know, and that's kind of where everything musically got started. That's where we would go in the basement and play music and you know, started cultivating our own musical tastes. Okay, you know.
I don't have an older brother. I have an older sister. But I know a lot of people have older brothers and the younger brothers entrall to the older brother, you know, and before you hit you know, maturity, et cetera. What was your relationship with your brother?
You know, we would get along. We got along, you know a lot. We got along really well. But obviously there were sometimes where we would fight and you know, get upset. I mean I was always kind of bigger than him, so I could, you know, we would we would get in arguments and I could, you know, I could hold my own let's just say it that way. But he was also he would he would forge himself into the world more than me. I mean a because I was younger, but b just because of my personality.
So you know, he would go out and look for records and he would go do these things and he would bring them back and then I would go in and take the ones I like and listen to him in my room. And you know, I would always obsess over the types of like all the instrumentation, and he would obsess over the stats, like who played what, who did this, who played that? But I could I could sing every note of every instrument that was going on at the time.
Okay, were you good in school? Were you popular? Did you play sports? What kind of kid were you?
I played football for like six years or you know, something to that effect, but Chris played. Yeah, I played football in soccer when we were kids. I remember playing soccer and football. I played from fifth grade to ninth grade, and then I stopped and was more interested in other things.
You know. I had two really good friends and some other friends, but like, the three of us were really close and we would do everything together, you know, that kind of thing, always staying at each other's houses and doing stuff. And then we had a broader group of friends outside of that. And one of my friends lived right up the street from me. So it was, you know, it was easy just to walk over every day. Chris had a ton of friends, and you know, he was more out there, but I was more you know, I
was a little shyer, you know what I mean. I'm a lot more shy than Chris was. And I had my own issues to deal with because I was OCD and no one really knew what that was and that time.
So were you a good student, mediocre student? You're a good student.
If I wanted to be. I mean, you know, growing up in the South and doing like going to public school. I mean I went to thirteen schools and so like in my whole you know, kindergarten to twelfth grade. So it was you know, I would have falling out with teachers or you know, it was a lot of times it was boring and I would just be like Jesus,
this is so boring to me. And but if I had to, like I you know, I remember like these teachers would get mad at me and they're like, if you if you don't get a hundred, you're we're going to fail you and you're gonna have to repeat. And I would get one hundred if I wanted, you know, And because I'm like, the last thing I want to do is go to this fucking school again and deal with this. And so I could get good grades and I could pass if I wanted, but most of the
time I was so bored I didn't. I didn't really, I was so uninterested in what they in the way that they were presenting these things to me.
Just if you move to the suburbs, Like when you're in fourth or fifth grade, how do you go to thirteen schools?
Well, it was starting from kindergarten, it was one school, then another, then you know, like first grade was when we moved to Charlotte. So I went to first grade, and then the second grade was a private school. Then we moved back to Atlanta in the third grade, and then moved out to East Cobb in the fourth grade. And so then it was like I was in one school for fourth and fifth grade. Then I went to middle school, which was sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. Then
I went to high school. And when I went to high school, I went to one school and then they pulled me out and put me in private school, and then I went to a boarding school, and then I came back to another school, and so It's just it was just kind of moving around within, you know. It was just, you know, it was just sort of how it happened, you know what I mean, which also created a lot of like social issues because I was always a new kid coming into school, you know what I mean.
Usually the new kids figure out how to fit in and git along.
Though I can get along and fit in, but it wasn't like having a group of friends that you grew up with that you could deal with.
So why did you go to boarding school?
My dad? I went to my dad's boarding school. It was just, you know, I got you know, my parents wanted me to go there. So I went up there to Darlington. It was in Rome, Georgia, and it was where my dad and my godfather went and so it was a great school and it was kind of cool. But you know, I went there for a year and then came back.
And what about your brother do he go there too?
He didn't go there. He went to a school because Chris was dyslexic, so he had some learning issues, and he went to the school called Brandon Hall, which was more of like a tutorial school. There was one on one teacher on one student or one teacher on two students and they were designed to be able to deal with those issues at that time, and I wound up going to Brandon Hall two for a year as well.
So tell me about the ocd.
Uh. It's just something that I've always had and it was pretty you know, pretty It's just extreme anxiety of the world, you know. I you know, I feel energy from people and from places, and I can and I've always been able to feel it. And when I walk into a room, the energy can be like crushing, where it can be pleasant, you know, just kind of depends on which room and where you're being in. The same
thing goes for people. There's certain people that when they come around, their energy doesn't work with mine, and then other times the energy works and it's great. And so it's just it's just something I've had to deal with. I mean, as I got older, I was able to control it, and then now it's just kind of it's
very little. But as when I was a kid and I didn't know what was going on, and my mom tried to understand, and she tried to look into it and and was helpful, you know, but ultimately, you know, no one talked about it and no one knew much about it, so it was kind of it was just something I had to deal with.
Well, do you have rituals, repetitions, you know, focus on things?
Yeah, I used to weigh more and now it's now there's certain things that I'll but not I don't have any of those anymore. I don't have to like do you know, repeated things and you know, touch surfaces or do this or do that, you know. I kind of I was able to get past.
That and with help or you just outgrew it.
I I I went to actually went with my first wife. We went to a marriage counselor, and she and the marriage counselor and this came up, and the marriage counselor told me she just said, well, you know, follow it through, like what's going to happen if this happens. And then it just clicked with me, just just that simple thing was like, Wow, you're right, She's like, you know, how is this going to continue down the road? There is
an end? You know. I mean, because when I was a kid, there was so much there was a lot of pressure because you know, I was writing these songs.
I was the youngest in the band, and I remember writing, you know, having to write a whole record, and you know, because I was young, and because as the band got bigger, Chris and I became more volatile towards each other because everyone was buying for you know, you know, who's say is going to be what or whatever, And there was a lot of resentment growing and I would get panic attacks, you know when I when I was like twenty two or twenty three. You know, you come off a record
like Shake Your money Maker. I was nineteen when I made it, sold seven million albums, and then all of a sudden, you're supposed to make another record, and so we just go in and do it without thinking about it. But by the time we got to America, it was like a thing. And I was and I was getting married and making this record and all these things were
kind of hitting me at the same time. And that was one hundred percent, I think, circling the center issue, which was this OCD shit that I had to deal with.
So when was the last time you had a panic attack?
Well, my mom gave me some amazing advice one time because she used to have them, and she just said, there's a time limit, like the physical effects of a panic attack last ninety seconds. And when I knew that there was a time limit, then I was like, oh shit. Logically I could look at that and say, this isn't forever. And knowing that there was a time limit to it, then I was able to kind of see when it was coming or when they were coming, and then work
through it in a logical way. And then I haven't had one since.
You know, Okay, so you talk about your brother coming home with these records. He's reading the credits, you're analyzing, learning how to play all the parts. You remember what some of those records were.
I mean early on it was like you know, rim records, the replacements, you know. I remember he had a David Bowie record. I think it was like the greatest hits. I think it was Change is One or something, and there was a lot of and I love David Bowie and I love those songs. And when I first heard Murmur, just this sound of that record was so profound to me, you know, it just kind of I remember hearing it
on this station in Atlanta. It was called ninety six Rock, which played like and you know, like like you know, skinnerd or whatever, but they're playing this and I heard Radio for Europe and it was one of the coolest sounding things I'd ever heard, and it just hit me. And so I would listen to that record, you know, a thousand times. You know, a lot of stuff like that, Chronic Town. Then there were bands that came from California, like the Rain Parade, which were part of this Paisley
underground movement that was out there. The Long Riders, the
Rain Parade, the Three o'clock, the Dream Syndicate. We were way into you know, X. I loved X. I loved the I mean, Billy Zoom is an amazing guitar player, and the songs were deeper and cooler than some of the punk rock that we first got into, like the Dead Kennedy's or The Black Flag or that, and so it was like the Clash and it became more like rock and roll thing because the Clash and X and these bands and the Ramones and you know, they were more they were more rock and roll and they had
some swing, they had some difference and it wasn't just hardcore punk. Yeah, So you know, that's kind of where it started. My dad had the first thing I taught myself how to play on guitar was a Dylan song. It was Oxford Town and Dad had he had that record at home, and I was and I just remember picking it out and then I picked out a couple of rim songs, and I picked out a couple of things, and that's just that's just how it got started.
Okay. Was the guitar the first instrument you played?
Yeah? Yeah, And I started banging around on my dad's guitar. He had this, He had this guitar that was a it was an old it was nineteen fifty three Martin d twenty eight wow or fifty four, and so I just remember picking it up and listening and like picking stuff out on the guitar, just picking it out. And then Dad would be like, you know, he didn't want us messing around with that guitar. So she was like, all right, here's four chords or four or five chords.
He's showed me like ed AC and g and then he showed me how to do harmonics, like this is what you do to make a harmonic, and that was about it. He was gregarious. He was great. I loved him, but he did not have the patience to like sit down and teach me more than that, so I had
to grow what you know. I never started playing guitar really till I was fifteen, fourteen or fifteen, and so I was late, you know, doing that, but I just kept at it and I was and so, you know, I took those five chords and the first thing I started doing was writing songs. And so Chris got a bass for Christmas, and I got a guitar for Christmas, and then we got an amp to share and it was a bass amp and that was kind of it.
And Chris, you know, he kind of played bass for a little bit, but he went he decided to be a singer, you know. So that's how that that's how that worked.
So what was the guitar you got?
I got a Lotus. It was a I guess it was a Japanese company. It was called Lotus, and it was a strat copy and so it looked like a stratocaster and we were into U two at the time, and it was like the edge is black and white strat that he had. I remember that. I was like, oh wow, that's cool. It's like the Edges guitar. But it was the name of the brand was Lotus, and uh and there was a bit there was a punk rock band in Atlanta called Neon Christ, and I slapped a big Neon Christ sticker on it.
So, okay, it came late fourteen or fifteen. Your dad showed you a few chords. Did you ever take any lessons?
No, I always most of the things I've done, I kind of taught myself, you know, taught myself how to ride a bike. I taught myself really how to swim. I had a little bit of help, but it was just like, you know, they would throw you in the pool and like you got to deal with it. I remember them pushing us off the diving board in Atlanta at the YMCA, and Chris and I just having to you know, make it, and so you just kind of
have to do what you have to do. So a lot of those things I just taught myself and I so I started writing songs pretty quickly, and you know, we weren't much of a cover band. We were always right off the bat, just writing our own stuff. And one guy, you know, Chris, moved out when he was eighteen, so he's two and a half years older than me.
I was still I was sixteen at the time. Maybe I was fifteen, and there was a he lived with Steve Gorman, our old drummer, and Steve and Spinn and these other guys moved in with Chris into a house. And one of the guys in Steve's band was called Mary. My hope that one of the guys, his name is James Hall. He was the singer. And James showed me what open e with tuning was because I heard a
song and I was like, what is that? That's amazing, you know, and he was like, oh, that's open tuning, this open e and you showed it to me, and it just sounded different to me. It just sounded so different than even just someone strumming an e and what you could do with it. And so I kind of started with that and just ran with it.
Okay, you started late and you come out full flowered five years later. Were you just practicing all the time? How'd you get so good? No?
I'm you know, Chris and I hate we are the worst at rehearsing where and where even now we're like, oh, we got to rehearse for five days and but no, I just I mean, I stuck with it. But I loved building. It's just it's like building. It was building a song. I love taking new approaches and kind of learning. You know. Every time I would learn a new court or a new approach, that would just be another piece.
There would be another word or another paragraph that I could add to my language of what I was writing or doing. We were playing shows.
A little bit. You went to varying schools, but I'm older than you. The Beatle era, we all saw the Beatles. We all formed the band. Some people had downs, some people didn't. But there were bands who played at the school dances, the bar Mitzvas, whatever. What was your experience? Were a lot of people in bands? Was it something like?
So? Where we were and I think the only time we ever really played out where we were was we played a graduate, Chris's graduation party, and it didn't end well. But we played Chris's graduation party, and that was really the only time. Maybe another time at like a house party out there that we played, but yeah, that was it. Every other time. We kind of went straight to downtown Atlanta and we started playing in the Atlanta music scene,
which was more of an alternative scene. There was a lot of punk rock bands there, but there was a lot of you know, RIM kicked the door open for tons of bands in Atlanta that were part of that. I mean Rim and the B fifty two's. I mean, there was a ton of stuff in the South between Nashville between Chapel Hill, where you had bands like Let's Active and you know the DB's, and then you had you know, Birmingham and Tuscaloosa and Columbia, South Carolina. So
there was a ton of bands in that area. And Atlanta was the biggest city in the whole Southeast, so a lot of those bands would come through and we would play. But that's where we were, you know what I mean. We started with bands like Driving and Crying they were going at the same time, and a lot of local bands, and so that's I would get in, like, you know, I would finish with school when I by the time I was sixteen, I had my own car, so finished school in our drive sound check. So we
would be playing shows. We played shows and Athens. We played shows, you know, all over even on weeknights, and I would finish school, come home, get my guitar, drive down to you know, to cab County or Atlanta or wherever we were playing a show, and then I would play the show, then come home by one in the morning, and the wake up and go to school the next day.
Okay, your brother moves out, he's living with other players. At what point does it become a band or was it already a band before that?
You know, it was a band before that, because you know, we started a band. It was like our cousin was on drums and because he got a drum kit for Christmas, and we got guitars and a bass and so we just kind of started bashing around right off the bat. But my cousin was playing soccer and his dad wanted him to didn't want him to be in a rock band, I guess. So we you know, we took it seriously and he wasn't prepared to take it the way we took it, I guess, And so we you know, started
just bringing in new people. We brought in a new bass player, we brought in a drummer. So we started moving forward like that, like we didn't there there was never a time where Chris and I were like, let's be in a band, let's do this. We just kind of did it, you know what I mean. It was like, all right, well he left, so let's get another guy in here. And while we're at it, let's get this bass player, this guy Keith Joyner who played bass with us.
He was a really good musician. And Jeff Sullivan from Actually who went on to play with Driving Crying. He was our drummer. And so we just started doing you know, more and more shows, you know, talent shows or shows at clubs. The first club show I ever played was I was fifteen, and we played the day of Live Aid and it was in Chattanoogam. We drove up there and opened for this band from California called Yoh, And you know, we just we packed up to station wagons
full of shit. We drove up there and brought some friends and the only people that were in that building were our friends. And so, you know, we kind of started pretty quickly. You know.
So you're saying you never played covers, It was always originals.
We did play a couple of covers, so we did play you know, we played a couple of covers, but it wasn't like our mainstay, you know, like I'm trying, like, we played a couple of velvet underground songs and what else do we play? By the time Towards the end, we were doing like Down in the Streets by the Stooges, and then we would do we'd throw in like an Aerosmith song. We did No No More.
I love that.
Actually, it's a fucking stellar No one.
Ever talked about it.
It's one of my favorite Aerosmith songs. But that was a night George Jacolia saw us because we actually booked some Uh. Chris was friends with this girl in Athens named Velina and she was dating Jefferson Holt who was managing RAM at the time, and Jefferson was starting a record label. And also we had been dealing with A and M Records at this all that this was all
going on at the same time. A friend of ours who now owns this this I don't even know how what you would describe it, but you know, have you heard of thirty Tigers? Of course, yes. So our good friend is David Massias, right, So Dave was our first manager. He worked at the record bar in Atlanta and Chris and it was at Lenox Mall, and so Chris and I would go in there and Dave was like, I'm a drummer. So we're like, well, we live in the you know, we live out in the suburbs. You want
to come try out. He came out and he was horrible. He was like, they actually had songs that I couldn't even He's like, I couldn't even hold a beat. He's like, all right, I'm not good, but I'll be your manager. We're like all right, man, you know, like whatever, we liked Dave. He was a great guy, and so Dave was like he was really supportive and cool. So he's like, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go make a demo. You have these songs. I really like them. Let's see what we can do. So
he kind of he booked us. He started booking us shows in Atlanta, and he booked us a studio session at this guy's house somewhere in like I don't even. It was like Decater, Georgia or something, and this guy in the basement had his own studio, and so we went in there. We recorded maybe four or five songs, and Dave was like, you know, I'm just going to send him out and see what happened. So he sent him to A and M Records, and he sent and one of them made its way to this guy named
Aaron Jacovis. I don't know if you remember that. Aaron was. So Aaron was an A and R guy at A and M, and he was like you know, he called Dave back. He's like, yeah, I like what I hear. Let's try to get him to do some demos or whatever. So he paid for us to do demos, Like was I guess it was like a technically a developmental deal with A and M. So we had two sessions of demos for A and M. And we did them in Boone,
North Carolina, at this guy's house. His name was Steve Grombach and he was the producer of the third Rain Parade record, Crashing Dream, and so we were excited because we loved Drain Parade. We're like, I can't believe we're working with this guy. So we drove up there and did some stuff and we made Yeah, we did two demos with A and M. And they were cool and Aaron was kind of cool. And then he lost interest and we don't know why. He just kind of stopped
calling and it just didn't happen. So that's when Jefferson got involved. And Jefferson was like, well, I have a show. He was booking a show for something up north. He's like, you guys want to do the show? And I think it was a band called Will and the Bushman and it was a It was at a club called Drums in New York, and so we were like, all right, you know, we'll go check it out. Of course, you know, we were kids. We were excited to go. So we drove up to New York and the show was in.
There was a show in d C. There was a show in I think it was d C, New York and Boston. If I could be convoluting two timelines, but I think that was it. And so we went up there. We played our set, and that set in particular we played I think it was down in the Street or
it was nineteen sixty nine, but we played that. We played no More and More, and we played our songs and we finished, and I remember I was sitting out in the audience and there wasn't much of an audience, and George was sitting right next to me, and he seemed so much older than me, you know, he was, he was only like maybe five years older than me. But I was like, man, who's this old guy staring at me? You know, and he was like, hey, man, that was pretty good. I'm like thanks, and he's like,
I'm George. And we met him and started hanging out. And he was an A and R for A and M Records on the East Coast, so he was in the New York office and he had heard of us. He said he was in Atlanta and asked some people around if there was some good, you know bands, and someone had said us, and so he wanted to come see us in New York. So he came down and
he really liked our covers. He's like, that's really cool that you did No More, No More in that iggy song, But I like your other stuff and so it was just it kind of kicked everything off, you.
Know, before you get there. Once Chris is out of the house and you talk about this era of going to school and then playing at night. How much did you gig? And since you're playing all originals, where are you playing? Are you making any money? What's happening in that period?
So there's no money, I mean maybe fifty bucks, one hundred bucks tops, you know, and but we're playing, you know, like we would drive up there. There was a club in Atlanta called the Cotton Club, which we remember we opened for Alex children there one time, which was pretty amazing. But that was a local club that we played a lot. There was a club called the White Dot. There was
a club called The Point. There was a club on Ponce de Leon that we one of the first shows we ever played, like you know, second or third like professional shows opening for like Larry T and The Now Explosion and that was on Punts and I can't remember what this celebrity club, that's what it was. So there was a ton of clubs in Atlanta that bands would
go play and they would play original music. But we I mean as far as money goes, we would make fifty bucks or one hundred bucks tops the Dugout, which was near Emory. But you know, because of the South and the way it was, we could drive up to Athens. We played the forty Wok Club, and we would play the Uptown Lounge and there was another club there called the Rockfish that we played. We would drive up to Charlotte. We would drive to Columbia. There was a place called
Rockefellers in Columbia. There was another place. There was a place in Jacksonville. Man, what the fuck was the name of that place. Einstein at Gogo play in Tuscaloosa a lot playing Birmingham, and Birmingham was a couple of hours away, so we could go play there. So we built a network of shows. We could go play and do you know, either our own shows on a Tuesday night for the door, you know, or we could go you know, open for someone and get a hundred bucks here or there.
It's hard to win over an audience without a record playing original material live. I mean, did you have any fans? What was going on?
I mean in Atlanta people would show up, you know, there was a there was you know, it was harder to get people. Maybe Athens we had some friends, you know, but for the most part it was hard for people. It was hard to get people to show up. But we kept at it. You know, we all loved doing what we were doing and none of that really mattered to us, you know, we were just having fun.
And how often would you play?
We would probably I mean we got to a point where we'd probably do about four to five shows a month, you know, we try to do one every week or every at least every two weeks.
Okay, from the time that you reference your first professional gig till you're sitting next to George Draculius. How long a period of time is that?
It wasn't that long because I don't think I was old enough to drive. Maybe I just turned sixteen when we went to New York, because I remember driving the van and I took a right the wrong turn, and I wound up on the access road on the fifty ninth Street bridge and there's no rail right there, and they're they're like, oh my god, and like we're stuck, and you know, I'm just like trying to stay away
from the fucking falling into the river. So I remember driving up there, So I was probably sixteen, So maybe it was a year.
Okay, when was the dream to me? Was it from day one? Or was this a lark and all of a sudden you got a reaction? What was going through your head?
It was more of a lark and we got a reaction for me, I mean. But also, like unlike most of the things in my life, I enjoyed the process. I was more interesting, I mean, And that's what happens when you're young. You know, the process is more fun than the end. You know, you're not looking to an end to a means to an end. You're loving the process. And like every time we would go out into the world and every time we would play one of these shows,
it was always different. It was always cool, it always you know, and it shifted like that. And so the ride, the journey was what was amazing. And so we never never really I mean, I think everyone was like, oh man, it would be great to be in a huge band, but I don't think any one thought about it like that.
You know. So you're sitting next to George. What happens next?
So George, you know, introduced himself and George is. We love George. I mean, he's such a charming, hilarious person. He kind of became our I mean, he really did become our mentor you know, he took us in. He was like, I like your band, I like what you're doing. You know, you have ways to go, but I'm I'd like to help you get there, you know, and he would.
And so we started. That's just basically when we started, and you know, he was like this kind of came up with a plan to sign us to A and M. We needed some more songs, and so he's like, I want you and Chris to go home and write, this is what I want, you know. And so Chris and I really took that. And the good thing about George is that, you know, he let us figure it out ourselves.
He wasn't saying it wasn't the type of producer or an R guy that would be like, you got to write this kind of song and this is what you need to do. But we would send him a song, he'd be like, ah, that sounds good, keep at it, you know, And that's good and bad and it's not really bad. But for us at the time, it was frustrating because we're like, well, what are we doing wrong. It's like nothing, you just have to come to this
on your own. And so in that sense, it did give us a work ethic to where we would just constantly write and constantly write until we reached a level where we where we you know, I mean, I kind of remember the first song I wrote for Shake Your Money Maker. That was on where she Talks to Angels, and I was like seventeen and it was an open E tuning and I wrote it and I knew something
different was there. And then one of the next songs was Jealous again and I remember we were opening for Driving and Crying in now Spille at the exit in and they heard that song at sound checking there and and their guitar player was like, holy shit, what is that song? We're like, Oh, it was just one we just wrote, you know what I mean, And you know, Chris and I had just finished it, and so you could kind of tell when the new stuff was coming
in and it was much better, you know. And that was one hundred percent because of George telling us like, that's really good. Keep trying, buddy, you know what I mean, Like, that's that's cool, but you got to keep trying to keep trying. And so we really, I think it helped us hone our uh our writing skills. It helped us, you know, learn a little bit of patients, although we're
not the most patient people. And it really it really brought us to this place, you know, where we were where we put in the hard work to make these songs the best they could be.
So from the time you meet George to the time you sign a deal when you go in the studio, how long a time is that.
So I met George when I was sixteen, I think it was sixteen. By eighteen so in two years we were making Shake Your Money Maker, we did a demo session at the place we were going to record, where we just went in and recorded all the framework of all the songs, and then we were going to start
again in like March. I think it was March or April when we started making the record, And so so it was a couple of years, and we had a couple of times where George would come down, you know, because it wasn't like once we met him, we all went home. We would talk to him every once in a while, we'd write a song, we'd send it to him. There wasn't a plan, and so it didn't really start moving quickly until we got to let's say, eight songs that he thought were worthy of putting our record. You know,
it's like, all right, these eight are cool. We need a ballot, or we need this, or we need that, or we would kind of you know, George. It was George had this idea of doing hard to handle and you know, and yeah, and and so those were the kind of suggestions that he brought, you know. And I think it was Chris that said, well, I don't want to do an Otis redding. I'm not. You know, I'm like twenty years old. I don't want to bust out
an otis writing song. But he said, what if you do it like walk this way, you know what I mean, like a more rock and roll version. So that's what was cool with it. And as time went on and as more songs went and that he liked and we were moving towards something, that's when it started speeding up. And so by the time I had like she Talks to Angels, which was set, I was seventeen. So within those two years is really you know, when we started making the record.
Well what point do you make a deal with Rick Rubin and Death American.
We didn't sign a deal until after we made the record, and you know, we never really saw any money until after the record was done. Like Rick just kind of paid for stuff, and but you know it was it was real loose and not you know, but we trusted George, you know what I mean, Like we just he was like, let's go make a record. We're like, all right, great, so we go in. We made this record. Took us a month. It costs like seventy thousand dollars to make.
I remember because I was a kid and I was like, wow, you.
Know, well, who was it George's seventy k who was paying?
No, it was Rick. But like George wouldn't buy you know, there was no food, there was no strings, there was no like the one thing they paid for. It was like I had this telecaster and it needed it was totally needed to be refretted, and George paid for that. And that was about it, you know what I mean.
It was like nothing else. And so we would go to you know, we would go there and we'd be like, man, we're hungry, and George'd be like, here when everyone share my big goal or whatever it was, or you know, he would buy some fries and be like, everyone share my frid like it wasn't you know which at the time, we didn't care because it was funny, you know, like we were just like whatever, we're making a record. But the studio and all that was paid for by Rick.
I'm assuming, you know, we never really know what happened with that. But and then you know, the record was finished. We didn't have a manager yet, so then we had started looking for management, you know what I mean, And that's when we decided to you know, that's when the late the contract came in and there was this attorney in Atlanta who it wasn't great and he basically it was a really shit deal and it was like Rick owned a lot of stuff that he shouldn't have owned,
and we were getting paid nothing. And the guy was like, look, this is the best you're going to get. You might as well sign it, and you know, being teenagers, were like, all right, you know, I guess we should sign it. And you know, but we got out of that quickly. We hired a manager that was that was able to see and we found a way to renegotiate and get all of it back.
Was that before or after the record came out.
It was after the record came out we had to deal with the deal that we had. But then a year into the tour, we discovered that, you know, as the record was kind of taking off, Rick didn't pick up the option for the second record and he just forgot and so we were five million records sold by then, and we were lying. And so our manager was like because he went to him and good our manager went to him in good faith and just said like, come on, man, this is a shit deal. You know, this is a
shit deal. Let's make it right, you know what I mean, like, let's let's let's make this right. And Rick was like, nope, I'm not doing it. That's it. I'm not touching it. And so a year in or maybe it was a year or two, I can't remember the exact time. Whenever, the time was that he was supposed to pick up the option. Our manager was like, he didn't pick up the option, so we're going to go and you know, I'm going to give him one more chance. Maybe he
doesn't do it, then we're going to play hardball. And that's what happened, and so we got everything back retroactively signed a huge you know, it was it was like along the lines of like a Celine Dion deal, which is one of the biggest deals signed in the industry at that time. And so it was a great deal for us and it worked, and you know, so we were able to reclaim a lot of this.
Who was the manager and who was the lawyer at that point.
Our manager was a guy named Pete Angelus and our lawyer was John Branca.
Okay brinca obviously experienced Pete Angelus has all this history. He's a wild character with David Lee Roth, how was your experience with Pete?
He you know Pete when we first started, like after the record was done, we changed our name because we made the record under mister Crow's Garden and that was our more like jangly rimy kind of name that we liked. And everyone agreed at the label, like you got to change your name. Your your sound has changed, this is a new thing. Let's do this, and you know, so we kind of kicked things back and forth, and once the record was done, the name was the Black Crows.
This is what it was going to be. We you know, we were looking for managers and there were a couple of guys out there that were interested, and one of them was Rob Stewart's manager, and one of them was Pete Angelis and we were talking to for a minute, but I think he obviously he had his hands full Peter Minch and Bernstein and then some smaller managers. There was a guy in Atlanta that was interested, but we just like Pete, you know, like he flew down to Atlanta,
he came to see us. We did a show. He set up a show for us, and like we gave away free alcohol and like twelve people showed. It was like and we were you know, Chris and I were like, man, only you know, can't even give away tickets or whatever, and so but it was cool. He was there, he got to see it, and we just really liked him as a person personally. But I remember us always saying like, man, we're not David ly Roth and that whole thing is
not us and that's not anything that we want. He goes, no, that's Dave. I understand that this is you. I totally get it. And so, you know, but yeah, he was He was smart, and he had a vision and we, you know, we appreciated his vision. And that's who he chose.
And how long did he last?
He was our manager for like twenty four years?
Okay, how long after the album is finished is it released?
So we finished in the summer of eighty nine and it came out in March of ninety.
What transpires in those six months and what happens in terms of the band working Once the record comes out.
We start doing more shows. We now were signed to a label, we have a record, and so we can start doing more and more. You know, we have the opportunity to do more stuff. And we started opening for bigger bands. I remember we played with the Red Hot Chili Peppers in Atlanta at the Fox. When they were playing there, we played with this band that was they were like an indie band at the time, like a college band called the Rave Ups. No, it wasn't the Rave Ups. I can't remember the name of the band,
but we opened for them as Charlotte. So we started getting more and more shows like that. There was a band in Atlanta called the swimming Pool Cues and so I remember playing with them one New Year, so we would We started like adding and ramping up the amount of shows we were playing, and we found a manager. That's when we hired Pete. We hooked up with this guy who worked for the Georgia Satellites. His name was Kevin, and he let us rehearse in his basement because that's
where the satellites rehearsed. So I remember rehearsing down in the basement and he was on tour and we became and we were we paid the first month or so. When he came home from tour, he was like, man, I really like your band. I want to let you rehearse for free. I love what you're doing. Or whatever, and he became a friend of ours and he was kind of cool, put us on some he helped book
us some shows too. Before this was all before we hired Pete, because Pete probably wasn't hired until January, so it was between the end of the record in January. It was about five or six months that we did for us. At the time, it felt like an eternity, you know. But you know, you look back now, you're like, man,
that was nothing. And so, but you know, we kind of used his house as a headquarters to talk to these people, to talk to managers and to and we asked his advice because he had been in the industry and we thought he knew something and so, but it turned out to bite us in the ass. The night before we left, or the week before we left to go on tour, his wife was pregnant. He didn't know she was pregnant. He was going to be our tour manager, and she gave birth unexpectedly all of a sudden. He's
a father, it's all. It's a whole story. She was a larger woman, and I guess she didn't tell him that she was pregnant. And then there was some drugs involved and so whatever. But so she, you know, all of a sudden he found himself as I'm a father, and so he was going to be our tour manager, but he's like, I can't. I have to stick with
the satellites because they're more solid for me. So he let us go and that was cool, and then a year later, when we hit a million records, he came down to see us and started asking us for money and then started writing threatening factxes, saying he's gonna you know, we promised him something and we owe him this and wants fifty thousand dollars and if we don't pay him, it's going to get ugly, and just more and more.
It kind of ramped up, and then he wound up suing us at the end of shaking money Maker for like two point two million dollars or something. That's what he was trying to sue us for.
Gow did that end up?
Well, he sued us and he lost, and we or No. It was a it was kind of a hung jury, and it was a weird scene because after the trial you can interview the jury and see what the thinking was. And apparently there was one guy that had convinced half of the jury that he was going to sell a book of the trial, and so he got half the jury to sign on to his book by using, you know, like a like some sort of napkin, which is what the guy like, we wrote, we wrote about this guy,
you know, Kevin. We're like, you're one of us, Kevin, you know all these things, and then he said that and it was on literally on a napkin, and he said that was a contract that promised him, you know, seventeen percent of all proceeds from the record, Like we were just saying, we're going to miss you, you know
what I mean, It was like that. And so but this guy who was some finance guy on the jury convinced he's like a school teacher, and a person that worked for you know, Bell South at the time, which was like a phone company, and someone that was like a truck driver. He convinced them they were going to make a lot of money. So they voted against us. The other people are like, this guy's fucking crazy. He's trying to take advantage of you. We see all this
that's going on. So it was a hung jury, and instead of us going back to trial and giving the attorneys another couple hundred thousand dollars. We just decided to settle, and our manager Pete flew down and negotiated with them and wound and finished it in a day, and it was done and we never had to deal with it again.
Okay, from the outside, it looks like an instant's success. What was it like from the inside.
From the inside, Yes, you're correct, it does look like that from the outside. From the inside, I mean, just by nature of being teen, I mean, you know, I was still a teenager. It seemed to take forever. I mean, not only was I a teenager, but most of it I was still in high school.
So you know, I was like, I'm actually referring to when the record is finally released. Oh, it seemed like it was successful instantly.
Yeah, I mean, you know, we did two tours opening for these club bands. One was called a junk one was called Junkyard, and one was called MSG, which is McAuley Shanker Group. And so McCauley Shanker Group was Michael Shanker and another guy McCauley, who was a singer, and you know, they would do clubs and Junkyard did clubs,
and so it was like two four. I think it was like four or six week lags around the States, just right back to back, and then we got Aerosmith and Aerosmith was kind of the first arena shows, big
shows we were playing. And so right before Aerosmith, we flew to Europe to do a quick stint our, first time in Europe, came back to do Aerosmith, and it was just kind of growing, but it was it was growing steady, but it wasn't like it didn't feel like an you know, it's basically a March to December where we in December we hit a million records, the first million, and so that's you know, nine months and so for us and being on tour and how time moved back then and how we were as kids because I was
I didn't turn twenty, so you know, you're dealing with you know, you're dealing with this. It seems like a long time, but it wasn't like painstaking because we're always doing something. You know, it's Junkyard and then it's this other band, and then it's Robert Plan you know, Aerosmith,
Robert plant Heart. Then we played we did a headline club show, and then we played with Eazy Top, and then we finally got to the point where we could headline our own theaters because we got kicked off as Easy Top and so, you know, and then once we joined Easy Top in January, we were selling like two hundred thousand albums a week and so it quickly went from a million to three million albums like like that.
And then that's when it like that January is when it just seemed to just launch, you know what I mean. And that's when it kicked in and we're like, holy shit, like this is a big deal.
So how'd you cope with the success?
Uh? You know, everyone, you know, when you're when you're on tour, you're in a bubble. You know. Some people call your bus a submarine, you know what I mean. And so we're and and it's very insular. So the world was changing around us, but we were still on this one path. It didn't, you know. So when we first did our first bunch of theater shows in America, that felt like a big deal. We were on the cover Rolling Stone. We got kicked off as Easy Top because Chris was you know, ZZ was at the time
was sponsored by bud Light. No, it wasn't bud Light. It was Miller Lte, and so, you know, Chris was becoming slightly disillusioned with some of the older bands because they were, you know, using backing tape or taking money from corporations and and he's he's a romantic, so he was like at the time, he was like, that's kind of bullshit, you know, like, and so he would say some things like we're brought to you by no one
or whatever it may be. And then ZZ, I mean Miller Lte started getting up tight about what we were saying, and so they started complaining to Bill Hamm, who was Zz's manager. And Bill Hamm would come to us, started coming to us and our manager and saying like, hey, you need to tell your singer to watch his mouth or whatever. And that was all Chris needed to make sure he didn't watch his mouth. It would just he would just go out and double down and randomly, We're
playing in Atlanta at the at the Omni. There's three nights at the Omni, and we were doing it. It was scheduled to be a like a big interview with Rolling Stone, but it wasn't a cover. So they sent David Frick down. So David was down there to do this and we got That was the night we got kicked off, and they came in and they're like, all right, you know, you're off the you're off this tour. And so we were like, all right, man, you know, and it and then it was just big news. The next day,
was on the cover of the Atlanta Journal Constitution. The next day, you know, all of these things happened and then and it was for you know, the reason, like you know, Chris said, it's bullshit and I'm not gonna I'm I don't work for Miller Light and fuck those guys and blah blah blah blah blah, and it turned into this thing. And so that then pushed us to be on the cover Rolling Stone, and it pushed us
into this next level. And so you could kind of tell at that moment that things were getting big, you know, because it was constant, certain things were consequential. And then the next and so we got kicked off as Easy Top, and that's when we booked our whole summer headline theater to Or with this band called Jellyfish opening for us, which was an amazing band and we loved touring with them, but we were playing you know, four or five thousand
seat places. We played the Santa Barbara County Bowl. You know, we were playing these places and we're headlining, all of them are selling out, and it was like shit, you know, this is amazing. And then after that ended, we went to Europe and we did Monsters of Rock and Stadiums with ac DC and Metallica, which was phenomenal too, because we're playing in front of one hundred thousand people a night.
We're going up there. I mean, although we were the opening band or one of the opening bands, I can't remember if we were first or second sometimes, but it was like, you know, ACDC came over and they were like, we love your band. It's proper rock and roll band. And you know, we had played some shows with Aerosmith and Metallica the summer, so we knew those guys and and it was just this thing and it was like
fuck man. We played Amsterdam and Malcolm and Angus came to see us at the Paradiso on a night off, which we thought was really cool. And then we played that show in Moscow. So there was that big show in Moscow that where there was you know, a million
people that showed up to it. Was US a CDC Metallica, I think Pantera was there, and it was right after the fall of you know, communists basically, and so we were flown over and that was kind of the pinnacle of everything, you know, where it was just like things were really amazing. And you know, it's always to me, I always like and it to like climbing Mount Everest. You know, we as a group of people over it.
Because that tour lasted eighteen months or twenty months and three hundred and fifty shows and we just we just climbed this mountain, you know what I mean, and together and that was a really cool thing to be able to do, you know.
Okay, when did you see your first check?
The first big check we got We signed a publishing deal and that was a big check and that really that really put a lot in perspective. So that was about a year, maybe fourteen months into the tour.
So when you got money first on the contract? Was it just you and your brother forget the song, right, I'm talking about the record deal? Was it just you and your brother? Are all members of the band.
It was all of us, Okay, I remember correctly.
So when you get the first money, what do you do with it?
Well, we never got any money from Rick, and it wasn't and we didn't and we were still we were so unrecoup because we were taking so much, you know, it was like tour support, all these different things, and Rick had some interesting ways of accounting, so there was a lot of stuff that was in there. It wasn't until that publishing check that Chris and I got, we each got one, that I really had a lot of
money in our pockets for the first time. And I bought a house and a car, and he bought a house, and that was kind of the first, you know, but it was while I was on tour, you know what I mean, because still at that time, I was flying home and staying with my parents because I never really moved out because I made the records when I was so young and then been left, you know what I mean. So getting my own house was a big deal. You know.
Well, you make four records with Rick P. D Angelis, we negotiated the contract with Brinka. Do you ever get paid record royalties from Rick?
Yeah, we did after that, especially retroactively, because once we renegotiated and everything kind of came back, money started coming in that was O.
Okay. In terms of the royalties, In terms of the publishing, do you still own that?
Well, we get yeah, we get royalties from everything.
Well, I guess that you were in an era the last five seven years where people are selling their catalogs, they're selling their publishing, they're selling their royalties. Is that something you've ever done?
No, I mean, I mean no one's talked to I mean, we haven't really talked about it right now about that because a lot of people are selling their stuff, but you have not. No, we haven't sold it. Now.
Okay, if you never worked again, do you get enough money coming in from all this that you don't have to work?
I mean, yeah, we would have to make adjustments, but yeah, we do. Well.
Okay, So now let's go back. When do you start thinking about and writing and recording the second album?
Chris and I were writing songs. I mean, we wrote maybe two or three albums worth the material during the Shaker Moneymaker tour, and so you know, we're constantly writing, and so there were two or three songs that we had that wound up being on Southern Harmony. One was my Morning Song. I remember writing that in Houston while we were on tour with Jellyfish, and then I wrote Thrown to My Pride. I remember playing Thorn in My Pride in.
Which is my favorite Black Rose song. I'll just leave it at that.
Oh well, thank you. I remember playing that in Dublin one of the last shows. And then I wrote black Moon Creeping at the sound check in at the County Bowl in San Barbara. So we had those three songs, and then but when we got to when it was time to make that record, because we got home like right around Halloween, like it was fat, I mean, you know, like we finished. I think it was like a week before Halloween, and George came out because we were going
to start writing the next record. We wanted to go right in. We felt like we had all this newfound power as a band, you know what I mean, like playing three hundred and fifty shows straight, We're like firing on all cylinders. We want to use that. So Chris had bought his house. I had my house, so we you know, Chris had a setup in his base in his garage and it was just me and him and I went over there. We wrote the rest of the record in about three in about two to three days,
it was over the weekend. You know, George was there and he was on the phone a lot, and so I remember he was upstairs and Chris and I would just be writing, like George's on the phone, you know, so let's just write. And then at the end of the weekend, George like, all right, let's get started, and Chris and I were like, we're done. Like, you know, we weren't going to let We weren't going to let pressure. We weren't going to allow pressure to have any effect
on how we wrote that record. We were excited to write it, we wanted and the songs were rocking and it was we were really happy with what was coming out. But we weren't going to be too precious about it. We weren't going to like sit and try to, oh, well, you know, we sold all these records, we need to try to do that again. And where's this where's the hard to handle, And where's this she talks to angels or whatever. We were just like, man, fuck it, this
is a record we're going in. We're gonna make it, and we made it in eight days. It took us eight days to make that record, and most of the takes were single takes. The first time we played it to tape is when is the one that was in and then the rest of them were second tape. There were no you know, songs that took ten takes or you know, we had to keep coming back to. It was just we were in. We were firing on all cylinders. It was it was done, and we were thrilled with what it was.
You know, Okay, that album goes double platinum, then the sales start to decrease. To what degree does that bother you it?
You know, it debuted at one and it was poised to but you know it was poised to go, you know, but also at the time, at the end of Shaking money Makers, when grunge came out, right, like Nirvana's first record came out at the end of that record, So there was hair metal, then there was and then for a short year and then it was like Nirvana and grunge came and so you know, we had about an eighteen month period where you know, we kind of pushed hair metal out of the way for something different, and
then this other thing came and so we were you know, we were playing roots rock music, roots rock and roll music, and also we chose our own path. Like again, we've always been on our own path. When Some Harmony was finished before it came out, Lars called me from Metallica and was like they were getting you know, They're like, we're doing the Stadium tour with Guns and Roses and we want you to be on the tour with us, and you know, and I was like, oh, wow, you
know that would be cool. But I said, I think we're going to do our own thing, you know, we want to do our own tour. And Lars was like, man, you're making a mistake. You know. He was really cool, he was always great, but he was like, I think it would be really good for your career, you know, to play in front of all these people. And but you know, we were really dead set on doing our own thing. And what we chose to do was three or five nights at theaters. You know, we wanted to
go in. We opened three nights at this theater and you know, in Minneapolis, and then played you know, five nights at the Fox and five nights at the Beacon in New York. And we we kind of took a different approach and a different route, you know, And so I don't know, chicken or egg what came before then.
But as we're going off on our own and doing our thing, and as the music industry is changing, we make a Moorica, which is not a commercial record by any means, you know, like and we weren't really trying to make a commercial record again, like we were just you know, we're always trying to push ourselves to write better songs, Chris and I are always trying to push
ourselves to write better songs. And you know, another fifteen or eighteen month tour for Southern Harmony and I pick up a lot more tools than my tool belt, er language that I can use in my writing. Chris is you know, we're all pulling more life experience for us to add to what we're writing about. But we wanted to make like a we wanted to make a very
specific record, and we weren't. You know, it was a much more like our songwriting became more sophisticated, came more emotional, like deeper emotionally a heavier record, and Amorica is a heavy record, and there's not a lot of room for you know, there wasn't there wasn't much thought given to the choruses or these types of things. We were just making our record. We put our head down, just went through and made this album.
You know.
Oddly enough, Rick on that record took an interest, which was really the first time he took an interest, and was like, he came to us and said, Chris and Rich, I think Descending is could be the best song you guys have ever written. He said, the verse is absolutely gorgeous. The musical piece is gorgeous. It just it needs a chorus. And you know, he was like, I want to bring someone in. I want someone to you know, what tools can we give you to help you rewrite the chorus?
And we were punk rock back then. We were like, you know, you know, this doesn't need a new chorus. This is how we wrote it. This is what it is. And he felt the same way about gone to the first song on the record and he was like, that just needs a chorus. It doesn't have one, you know, And in that sense he was correct, you know, I mean, from a commercial standpoint, he was correct. Those two songs
could have benefited from big choruses. And in my opinion, Chris's verse, what he sings on the verse and Descending is one of the lyrically and melodically is one of the most beautiful things he's ever sung.
How do you end up working with Wig and what's the difference between working with him and George?
Well, Jack, you know. So we made one record one America and it was called Tall. And that's when this is when Chris and I were really at odds and there was a lot of you know, substances going around with Chris and not with me, but with Chris, and so there was then there was more ego, and there was more weird stuff happening, and so he decided he wanted to produce the record. I'm like, you're not producing me, Like, I know what the fuck I'm doing. I don't need
you to produce me. And so we wound up making the first record. Chris met this guy who was an engineer, but I didn't, you know, And Chris conveyed everything he wanted from a record to this guy without asking what I wanted from the record, and I'm like, well, that's not what I want, you know what I mean? And so it was just a dirge. It was like a fucking six or sex. It took seven months maybe in the studio, and it was and so we made this record, and at the end of it, we were just like,
it's not very good. It's just not good. We don't I don't like it, you know. Even the other guys in the band were like, yeah, you know, I think it could have been better. Our manager was, you know, like yeah, I don't think this is it. And after that, Chris and I took some time. We got back together and we were like, well, let's make a studio album.
I want something that sounds amazing in this in the sense, you know, something that is like that audio files would put on and listen and be like, man, this sounds fucking you know. The sounds can be their own sort of tapestry. And we felt really strongly about those two Jellyfish records, especially Spilt Milk the second one, because we love those guys they were our friends. But also those
records sounded unbelievable. And it was Jack Quig who did that record, and so we reached out to him and he came in and we made we kind of went back in half or maybe seven out of however many songs is on America and I wrote some more songs and and then yeah, we went in and made a Moorica and it did. It was one of those things
that sounds fucking stellar. It's an amazing sounding record. But again, you know, Descending Gone could have been something else if we had written, if we had focused on that, but we weren't the right place to do that.
How do you end up working with Jimmy Page.
So America comes out, We do that, then we make Three Snakes, and Three Snakes is kind of more of a of a pathway into We wanted to make like led Zeppelin three. The juxtaposition between like big drums and acoustic guitars, like the sound and the presentation of led Zeppelin three we loved. We're like, man, this is fucking great. What if we do this?
Do this?
We made this record, but again, tickets, I mean, the album sales continued to kind of plateau, and you know, people at the label were getting up tight. Our manager was kind of getting up tight. So we're like, we need to make a rock and roll record and kind of get back to our roots and see how this works. So we hired Kevin Shirley, who had been working with Aerosmith. We sign our manager was able to pull us away from Rick and get us directly onto Columbia, and so
Rick wouldn't really we wouldn't. We didn't like Rick, and we didn't We couldn't, you know, we wouldn't have to deal with Rick anymore. So we signed with Columbia, do this big thing, have a comeback and made this rock and roll record, which is a great It is a really good rock and roll record. There's choruses, it's exciting, sounds good. We do a bunch of shows, do a bunch of headline shows, and then we got a bunch of Aerosmith stadium shows in Europe because they would do
stadiums in Europe. And in nineteen ninety we toured with Robert Plant. He was one of one of the bands we toured with in arenas and we loved Robert. Robert was always so cool to us. Couldn't have been cooler person. The next year on Southern Harmony, Robert was doing. We were doing festivals and Robert was opening for us, which was a little weird for us. I was like, wow, this is and I remember we were playing three nights at the Royal Albert Hall in London and Robert was like,
can I bring Jimmy down? We're like, fuck yeah. Of course, you know, they were putting together Page Plant, and Robert wanted Jimmy to come, and we were excited to have him come. And it was Robert and Jimmy, Jimmy and Ron Wood was there too, and we met Jimmy and he couldn't have been cooler, and he loved the band like that. I think that was the first time he'd seen us, so he really loved the band. It was like, man, you guys are great. We hung out with him and
he liked it so much and he was good. And Jimmy was close with our friend Ross Halfin, who's a photographer, and so we're like, well, Jimmy, were playing in Paris in two days, if you want to come, And so Jimmy came and him and Ross flew to Paris and we were up there and you know, Chris had a bunch of vinyl on the floor because we traveled with this massive stereo in our in our dressing room, and Chris went and bought a bunch of vinyl and they
would fly home with the stereo. And so Jimmy was there looking through the virus like oh yeah, I love this and this, and we really hit it off, and so you know, we always kept in touch. And then the next year the next record we played, you know, the Albert Hall, and Jimmy came down again and we just really hit it off in that way, and we had done some shows with Page Plant, so we did so the Amorica tour in the summer, we toured with
the Stones and Page Plant at the same time. So in between playing with the Stones at we did three nights at Wembley Stadium. We broke off and would go do shows with the Page Plant in the UK and then come back the next night play with with the Stones. And it was like a magical, unbelievable summer of that. And so we just really headed off and it was always cool cut to by your side, by your side
comes out we're doing these shows with Aerosmith. Jimmy was part of a he was part of a charity event that he I guess set up with his wife at the time, Hermione, who she was from Brazil and I think it was called the Brazilian Children's Fund and he did this thing every year at the Cafe de Perry in London, and so he wanted us to be his band. He's like, I want you guys, he goes, I've already done it with Robert and I've done it with these people,
but I really want you to be my band. And so we were so flattered and like, man, we would love to first song we learned was like in My Time of Dying, which was amazing, and you know, Jimmy
was like, what would you guys like to do? And we chose to do like ten Years Gone and you know, yeah, cool stuff, and so we were so excited and then we got we learned our parts in New York and got everything together and then we got together with him before the event at this place called No Me's and it was just something that was so it just felt right.
You know. It's like when you play with someone that sound that is like, oh shit, you know, that just sounds like they've been in your band forever or you've been in their band forever, whatever it is. And it was so natural and so cool. And while we were doing it, our manager, actually Pete at the time, said we should do this, like let's you know, this would
be cool to do. Let's do a couple of shows, and he approached Jimmy and Jimmy was like, man, I would love to do that, that's great, So he put you know, I think it was like three shows in New York, one show in Boston, wanted Detroit, and in to in La at the Greek, and so we just kind of booked these shows and said, let's see how it goes. And it was the most fun some of the coolest shit we've ever done, you know what I mean,
Like all these people showed up in New York. The excitement was so palpable, like you could feel it in the dressing room. You know. We played the Roseland Ballroom three nights and it was like a small place. It's like four thousand seats and you think about those people getting in to see that thing, and what's it going to be like you just felt it. And Amed Urnaguet was there and all these people came out of the out of the you know, the woodwork to see it.
It was something that was amazing. Joe Perry jam with us in Boston, you know, just such a fucking cool thing to do.
Okay, in two thousand and one, you do the Brotherly Love Tour with Oasis and Black Crows. I saw it at the Greek. I think you guys closed I had seen Oasis at the Whiskey. Oasis were long in the tooth at that point in time. What did you think when Oasis came back last year and sold stadiums in America forgetting?
I was shocked, Like, are you fucking kidding me? I mean, I was happy for them. I love those guys, you know, but I was like, I mean, because the last time I saw them in America before they split up, they were doing theaters, you know, they never got to that level in the States, and then all of a sudden, they're doing fucking stadiums in LA, Chicago and New York. I was I was like, oh my god, this is crazy. Chris saw a couple of the shows. I think I think he saw New York and maybe La or London.
I can't remember.
Okay, you and your brother get back together before COVID. There's a lot of excitement. There's a little bit of backlash. I'm gonna ask you for it. Some people say, hey, you did it for the money. What would you say to them?
You know, I mean, everyone's gonna have their take, you know the fact that we didn't. You know, there's two a band. Being in a band is like being in a marriage or being in a family. There's a family dynamic that surrounds every band, and our family band dynamic was fucking toxic, and it was toxic from the moment we started seeing success is when infighting started happening and
all this shit. You know, our old drummer had said a couple of times, like the scariest thing to all of us in the band is when you and Chris get along, because we can't, you know, because there's no stopping and a lot of and there was a lot of that attitude there, and so there was a lot of there's a lot of push to keep Chris and I separate, to divide and conquer, to to push what I call little pettige power agendas that people wanted to push instead of looking at Chris and I getting along
as something that's a positive for everyone. And so when we got back together, we talked about it. I mean, what most people don't understand is we got offered tours every year that we were broken up, you know what I mean, like there we could have toured anytime, but at this time and moment, we you know, Chris and I had been out on our own. We think it was eight or nine years apart, and we you know, decided that it was something that was important to us and the way the way we did it was going
to have to be a different way. And I'm like, I don't want to do this. If we're going to just start the same bullshit, if we're going to fight and it's going to be this and there's going to be you know, pettiness and people trying to divide us. I said, I'm not going to fucking do it. I
don't want to do it. And he said the same thing, and I and we both agreed that like the only way to keep it positive is to bring in new people, is to bring in new band members and bring in new management and kindind of start over where it's established that we that this is where everything comes from, and we need to just get and for Christ andize relationship and for the relationship of the band and for the and for moving forward. This is how we need to do it. And so that's what we did.
Before we get back to the Black Crows, I saw you as one of the guitarist with Howard Lease in what was called Bad Company Phenomenal Show, and you were great, But how do you end up playing in that situation.
There was a couple of years ago there was a tribute to Jimmy Page from the Experience Hendricks Project and I had done. After the Crows split up, I was doing my solo stuff and I got asked to do this Jimmy Hendricks tour and it was it was something I'd never done. I'm like, oh, I've never done anything like that. I've always been in my own band. I've always been kind of safe and protected in my own band. So I was like, oh wow, trying to challenge myself.
And so I went out and did that and everyone was so cool. Jamie, you couldn't have been cooler. And this guy, John McDermott, who runs or manages the Hendricks catalog, was out on that tour and he was one of the people that wanted me to be involved, and so he wound up helping me out, you know, because I had a manager and it wasn't panning out, and so I asked for his help and he was like, oh, yeah, I can help you out. So he helped put together a couple of things, and one of the things he
put together was this tribute to Jimmy. I mean, that guy knows everyone, but Bad Company's manager asked him if I would play on a couple of things with Bad Company, and so I'm like four, because they were doing at this experience Hendrick's thing. They were doing what was the name of that band that he was in with Jimmy Radioactive and uh get Satisfaction Guaranteed the Firm.
Those were the two best songs.
Yeah, So I was like, yeah, sure, you know, I'll play. I don't care. That'd be cool, you know. And so I kind of flew there and played with them and it was cool, you know, and that was it. And then about maybe a couple of months later, they called me and said, Mick Rauss can't do the American leg and we were just they were just wondering if you'd be up for filling in for six weeks, and I said, yeah,
of course, that would be amazing. I mean I love Free, I mean Free is an amazing band, and I love Simon and Andy Frasier, you know, and Paul's amazing, and so I was like fuck yeah, and I just I did it because I thought we'd play Free songs at soundcheck, you know. But but it was cool and I went and did it, and you know, Paul sounded amazing. Simon
sounded great. It was a cool thing to do, and it was just six weeks and so I filled in for Mick and then he came back, and then I think is when he started having his you know, more medical issues.
Did you play any free songs in soundcheck?
Yeah, we did a little bit. You know, I think like Simon, because Howard was into it too. Howard love free and he you know, I think he played mister Big and you know Simon, but Paul wasn't having it. He's like that man never told over here. And I was like, all right, but I you know, I would have done like I'll be creeping or you know, ride on a pony or something. Would have been cool.
Okay, So Black Groves gets back together, he amps up, COVID happens. Okay, the novelty of Black Crows being back together is over. It's been you know, seven years at this point in time. Okay, So how do you see Black Crows going forward in terms of, you know, what you want on of it? It's completely you talk about grunge coming in the early nineties, we're in an era where no one has dominance. The Rolling Stones put on a new album, it gets pressed very few people who
actually listen to it. What's your vision going forward?
I mean, you know, we love playing, we love being in the studio. We're going to do what we do, and you know, that's it's kind of what we've always done. We've always been We've always been outside what everyone else does in the industry. We've never been part of any any kind of movement. Like we were kind of our own movement for two years from ninety to ninety two, and then something else came, but we still existed consistently
throughout the world unto ourselves. And so I think we're you know, just keep going as long as it's fun and as long as we feel happy about what we're doing. And you know, that's pretty much it.
Do you care about the size of the audience, size of the buildings you play in?
You know, we're selling more tickets still to this day than we ever did, you know, I mean consistently, we're still selling a lot of tickets. We're still selling big So I mean, it's it's cool. I mean, it's nice to have people come see you. I mean, it feels great when people come see you and they like what you're doing.
Okay, the album comes out, it's a completely different era from nineteen ninety. Hey, do you care about reviews? Do you care about the number of streams? And how much what of this will people see in the new sets?
Again, it's one of those things you make music because you want people to like it and you want people to stream it. But if they don't, then that's cool too, you know what I mean. Like it is what it is. At the end of the day, They're going to like
what they like or not like what they like. As far as as like how many songs, we'll probably play two or three songs a night, new songs from this record, maybe a song from the last from Happiness Bastards, and then a bunch of stuff from our old records, stuff that from unreleased albums and covers and you know, so we still change it up a bit, and we still you know, change the set list every night. We still add new songs in and make it dynamic, and that makes it more interesting for us.
Okay, there were some other things you've done that have not been common. You've done it. You did a tour that was another under play. You've also played nights where you've played for a long time. You know, mixing it up is one thing, but left to your own devices, how do you like to do it?
You know, left to our own device. I don't know. We're always kind of on our own devices. But I think, you know, I like changing songs every night. I like playing where we play. I like I still like getting on stage and having that band move like an engine, Like everyone is moving and everyone is It's you know, some people have likened it to like esp but we all know where we're going. We're all writing. It's like
riding away. It's like everyone's writing this way. And that's the magic when it hits and everyone's doing this thing, and it's kind of and it can fall off the rails at any time, and that's what makes it exciting to me. You know, that's you know, I think being older it made us realize that, you know, there are people that want to hear she talks to Angels are hard to handle our remedy every night, you know, so
we try to do that. You know, we try to play those recognizable songs every night, but then we also will add some cool, rare stuff, and we'll add some covers, and we'll add these other things. So I kind of feel like we have more of a balance now than we used to.
Now. When you broke it was the tail end of the MTV rock era, but MTV was still extremely powerful hip hop for his grunge. Then hip hop starts to take over. Then it was like a floating party, a club. I mean, you could even be simple about it, say it's Sunset Strip, it's the Rainbow, etc. We live in an era where everybody can connect via the Internet, but you could live anywhere this point in time, is your life primarily your family in the Black Rows? Or to
what degree are you hearing from other people? I'm more looking, you know, what are you hearing? And how is it different today as opposed to yesterday? And what do you think caused that? Just the Internet or age?
Yeah? For me, I mean, you know, my family is where I spend most of my time when I'm away from the Crows, because this is because I'm gone a lot, and so this is where I want to be. And but I do you know, we do experience things. We go out and see bands and you know, see it and do other things as well as far as what the world is now versus what it used to be. It's it's I I mean, it's kind of bizarre now.
I mean, there's a you know, back then, there was a two formats that you could get your music out, you know, radio and MTV, and it was pretty focused and you knew that if you went out and toured and you worked hard, you could pretty much get somewhere if you worked at it for a while. You know, Now, man, there's streaming, there's social media. You know, my son tells me that everyone expects them to bring fans in and
that everyone expects that. So like that, you know, you have to have x amount of social media people in order to get booked or this or that or streamed all this bullshit, and it just seems it seems bizarre to me. As far as being in a band, it's got to be really difficult because we grew up in a totally different time. And then you have a bunch of people now, the youth, they don't drink, they don't want to go out, they want to sit at home and watch Netflix or you know, do whatever they do
on their phones or computers or whatever. And so you're competing with reality and with a virtual world, which is really intense and kind of anti humans. It just seems it seems the opposite of having human relations. And I think maybe that's why the youth is having such a hard time. Maybe that's why they have such anxiety. Maybe because they weren't kind of forced to go out and forge their way into the world and deal with failure and deal with rejection and be okay with it and
try it again and try it again. You know, it's a different way of looking at it. And I think that, you know, I think that that's I mean, that's a shame. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of missing out on humanity right now, and what it means to be human, or what it means to relate to humans, and what it means to hear things that aren't perfection
or what is seems to be a perceived perfection. You know, music, when you play it, when you write it, you know, you get excited when a chorus is coming, you speed up a little bit, then you kind of slow down. When the verse comes, you reset. You know, there's a bridge, you lean into it, you kind of reset after this, depending on how it is. There's humans tend to you know, the key is relative, a key of a song is relative. Some people sing slightly flat, but it's part of the
charm of their voice. Some people sing a little sharp, but it's part could be the part of a charm of their voice. But what we've done with these tools is we've eradicated the human element of making music. So John Paul, you know John Bonham's you know, squeaky kick drum sound and you know, since I've been loving you would be extracted by AI because it's not part of the song. The bleed of a horn part into a drums would be extracted because it's not part of the song.
Or you know, everyone puts this music in a grid and it has to be perfectly in time, and the AI fixes it and all this shit, and at the end of the day, it's like, man, that's that's what music is. That's the magic. The human element of it is the magic. That's the uniqueness of it. You know, there's this song on Southern Harmony and Musical Companion one of our records called sometimes Salvation and at the end
there's a circular chorus that keeps going around. And one time, because Steve and I recorded it in the room and I'm looking at him and we add a beat to it, and then just by accident, but we were both together, so we both do this thing, and you would look at it and it's different. It's never been played that way ever. Again, that's the one time it's been played that way. But it sounds fucking great. We didn't try to recreate it because we thought it would be a
little hokey to recreate it. But that's a piece of magic that was caught in that moment, and that's what makes that magical. And when you suck all of that out and you take all the humanity out, and you take the breath of humanity out of music, the music that speeds up or slows down or does this or does that, that's when it gets really kind of weird and you start to look at this thing and you're like,
what are we doing? You know, what the human ears meant to hear is the ear and the heart, Like the music needs to hit you in the heart and you need to be able to feel something from it. And so you know, that's where a lot of this. I do think technology in particular kind of took over and has deadened the senses of what music as it can.
Be finally you grew up there. You haven't spent all your life there since. But what is different about Atlanta as opposed to New York in LA What is different about the South?
The South, you know, we grew up and by osmosis we were I mean, you know, the South is a fascinating place, and it's a sensual place. The food is sensual, the sounds are sensual. The weather, I mean, shit, you know, in the summer it's fucking hot. It's this, it's that you have seasons. But there's a culture in the South that doesn't exist anywhere else in America. There's I don't think there's really anywhere in America that has a specific
culture that that's like that the South does. And the South culture is an amalgamation of all these different sort of cultures that came together and created this whole thing from New Orleans to Atlanta to the Appalachian Mountains and everything kind of came And if you think about Southern writers and Southern musicians and Southern painters and Southern filmmakers and Southern and all of these things, there's a very specific thread that kind of goes through it that makes
you feel a part of something something different, And there's also a lot of shame down there, I mean from the past. I mean, it's there's a there's a whole paradoxical existence in the South. That's but it's amazing, you know, you have all these elements and so you know, I mean, if you think about it coming from it, even from Georgia, you have Grand Parsons, you have ram, you have Little Richard, you have Hotus Reading, you have you know, you have
the Almond Brothers. You know, you have the B fifty two's, you know, you have bands like us, you have you know, all of this music that comes from this one place, you know, and then you expand that out into Alabama and Mississippi and Louisiana and all the different types of music and the type and just the rich tapestry of all of this. Uh, you know, creativity that comes from that place, and it's in the soil and it's in
the energy of the place. Uh. And it's just you know, there's there's some but it's getting lost too, you know, like it's it's it's kind of leveling out and changing as well. But when we grew up there, at the time we grew up that was palpable. You know, Rim was just as much of a Southern band to me as Skinnrid was, or you know, the Almond brothers or whoever it may be that, but their vision of the
South was different. It was there was something really beautiful about it, there was something tender about it, and there was something incredibly artistic about it, but it was no less southern. You know.
Well, it's been amazing talking to you, Rich, because this is gonna come out in a way that's going to sound I'm like judgment, but I'm bringing up. Your brother tends to eat up all the year, and therefore you don't get to talk that much, which gives one the impression that you're shy and you don't talk that much. But you can talk and you're you're a very sharp guy. I mean, listen some of the records you know, no More, No More, ten years gone, and all these others. I
can talk to you for days. There's so much other stuff, but we're gonna stop it here for now. Rich. I want to thank you so much for taking this time with my audience.
Of course, thank you so much for having me on. It was great talking to him.
You bet till next time. This is Bob left six