Pete Wentz

you do as stadium tour? And we played uh, Wrigley last year, which is our hometown UM, and we've always talked about kind of trying to do like a Monsters of Rock thing, and I think green Day had talked about it as well. So we you know, we're all on the same management company. So I think that's what

really UM eliminates. Maybe some of the red tape makes it like more feesa bol to do you know, there's a lot of like managing of egos and man, you know, I mean it's just like it's a lot kind of with one band is a lot, do you know, with three bands a whole lot? You played Wrigley, How did you do it? Wrigley. It was good. It was great. I mean it was our hometowns. I mean, did you go clean at Wrigley? We did? Yeah, I mean it too.

So whatever everything there's different configurations for everything, but yes, we went clean. So what configuration did you have? I think that we did over thirty And I'm guessing, like there's probably a way that you can do a configuration where you put people behind you, you know what I mean, Like I guess you're going to like the full Beatles, I mean configuring Chase Stadium configuration. But we didn't have

people behind us, but yeah, we did. It was there's something special about Chicago because Chance the Rapper played a stadium in Chicago fairly well from the Dead. You know, Detroit always talks about it's fan base. Is it a very active fan base or it's just that's where you're from. It's an active fan base. It is where we're from. But I think that and and and Chances the one that's a little is different on here. But people play,

you know, whether it's Eddie Vetter or whoever play. You know, people have a special connection with I think Grigley Field people have a special connection with Fenway there's these places where people it's bigger than the city. It's bigger people can sell out Hollywood Bowl and not sell out Irvine down the street totally. And so I think people go there because there's a you know, we made a weekend of it. We did a pop up experience there also,

which is always experience. So when we did our album, Mania always envisioned it as you know, the idea of having something tangible, like, I think we live in this world where it's all filled with like this that kind of non tangible things, you know, like likes and things like that, and they all go away, disappear in twenty four hours away ever, and I think, uh, it's counterintuitive, but I think it's interesting to do something that people

can hold onto and experience and walk into ensure. Um, you can't take pictures of it, but I think it means more to actually be there. So we we created a space that was like every song, every song had a room in the space, and you walked in and it was like what the album was, but like a physical version of it. How big was it it was in So we found a building that they were going to tear down, so it was big. It was massive, but they were like, you can do whatever you want

to because we're gonna just turn it down afterwards. Um, So we built walls and kind of created a place. But it was it's interesting because it was all it became event but you know, like it was one of those things that's in between a bunch of different worlds

or a bunch of different people's um specialties. So there's a lot of things that we would I probably would do differently if I did it again, And there's a part of me that thinks like I would just never do it again because it was just a bigger undertaking than we expected. Like we were literally gluing things as people were waiting in line at it, you know. So okay, you're talking about it is physical. Did people pay to

get in? Yeah, but you could also win you could you could you could win tickets people paid to get in, And then I think there was like a package for the show where like you was included. How far was it from Wrigley It was Uh. I would say it was like ten minutes, twelve minutes, but it was like Chicago minutes, not those minutes, you know what I mean. So it was like funny because you know, people are expected on time in New York and you think how dense it is. Where's in l A, you know, because

the traffic you never know. Yeah, I'm I'm how late I was to this podcast? Is how late I am to literally everything in my life, which is unfortunate, except I'm not late to my just minutes people listening and what's about what I am? And I don't factor in. So I factor in like, okay, five minutes shower, you know whatever, But I don't factor in those in between minutes like where you're toweling off or you're like looking

for your keys. Those are these in between minutes that really add up, and those become the fifteen minutes for me every single time. Well, the only thing is certain people have a thing where they're always on time, and it could be the most powerful person because I hate when I'm on time and I'm the greeting committee because like you know, if the parties at seven, you can't get there at seven, or you know, there's a dinner and I get there and I'm waiting and I gotta talk.

But then there's some really heavy players get on time. I feel really shitty if you're late, totally and I think that it's it's like to me. Uh. I remember being in a meeting. I was in a meeting. There was like a pitch for a movie or something like that. I can't remember. This was like years ago. And I looked over and there was like, you know, like a box of like the spread you guys got, but like

it was like coke and sprite and whatever. And then there was one tab uh for people who don't know, like tab the Cola or whatever, and that was the original diet drink from Coca Cola. Totally. And this I'm talking this is like ten years ago. This wasn't big, Like these things had to be out of Prince in the eighties or whatever. And I was like, that's so odd, like they would have one and we're in the meeting. Uh in the billionaire in the meeting goes over and get to the tab and I was like, got it.

So if you're a billionaire, you can get a tab in the meeting. I hate to talk this way, but you know what it's like when you fly on the private jet and you didn't book it totally. There's certain seats if you can no, you can't exactly. Yeah, just thrilled that you're on Okay, what would you do differently if you did the installation again? Um, I would allow more time for the build out. I would. I think that this is one of those things where you can't

cut corners. I think, notoriously in the music business, people really people either under vastly underspend or vastly overspend. And I think in this case you should lean air on overspending because I think people having the experience are going to come out and they talk about it, and they'll talk about how, oh like it looked like it was this but it was actually made out of cardboard and was super cheap and was falling apart, or they walk out and they're like, oh my god, that was the

best thing I've ever experienced. And there's you can't really like put a figure on people walking out and having that experience. It's hard to like sit there and like say that in a marketing meeting or you know, like have a pie chart and like be like, well, this amount of people are going to say this about it because it's a real feeling. It's like authentic, you know. Um, So I think I would air on spending more. And I think that I would uh, And I don't know

that we had any um. I can't remember if we had any ad space or any like it was put on by anybody or something like that it might have been. I would have none of that. I would have no signage. Okay, what's your general philosophy on sponsorship. I think sponsorship can be great when someone gives you the money and says, listen, we have no idea what to do with this. We trust your vision, we trust your brand, we trust what you're going to do with this, and that's why we're

coming to you. I think that is great. I think when you get into the like and we need need you to like meet like seven people and we need you to like change this messaging and like that lyric doesn't work for us, it's not worth it to me because then at that point like jeopardizes and changes your art. It changes what your vision was going to be for it, you know what I mean. So, like, have you worked

with brands? Yeah, for sure, never on like ah, you know, shake it like a polaroid picture level, you know what I mean. But like, but we've had tour sponsors. This tour has a Harley Davidson sponsor and I think that, like, especially when the brand makes sense with you. Like to me, I'm always like, kids are smart, you know. I mean kids can smart can spot when somebody's like doing something that doesn't really fit in with what they normally do,

you know what I mean? And so I think if you do something, if if there's things that I'm like, I love this, like, uh, let me think um, Like I love salt and straw the ice cream. I've been trying to do something with that forever, you know, and I haven't been able to do something with them, but I like it, so it would make sense. So it's like whatever you do would would actually be like in

line with it. And I think it's when you step out of line is when people are like, oh, that feels a little weird or it feels like you know, and I okay. But it's well known if you do anything, you're getting money, whether you're putting it back into the show, are you putting in your pocket. Do you think that has any negative effect credibility wise on your fans. I

don't think that it does anymore. I think that this generation has grown up with seeing people like really shill and I think that the difference is uh is knowing that you like, you know, like they saw us and we would have like cell phones and our videos and stuff like that. And I'm like, this literally is to pay for the video. Like we're not walking away. We're still losing money making this video, you know what I mean? And and I think we we as a man, and

I think other artists kind of like educated that you know. Um, I think that there's a difference between like doing a commercial for something that you don't believe in and and taking money that is gonna enhance your art, make anything. Let's go to the led Zeppelin example, when they launched this new Cadillac for ten million dollars? Would you do anything? Would say? Okay, that's what I mean. It's almost like an indecent proposal. Would you do anything for ten million dollars?

Or at some point your your credibility says no, yeah, absolutely no, No, I don't think you can do anything for ten Okay, Let's switch it to politics, whatever side. Would you go on the record when it comes to candidates or political issues? Would I go on the record? Um? Sure, I think that this we're in a time where you should step out and not necessarily step out, but you should be okay with who you are and authentic with

who you are. The funniest thing to me speaking of that is like the other day I saw that, like, you know, Vince Vaughn is all over the place, and it was like, you know, people freaking out that he'd like met Trump and you know, and I'm like, I think this guy's like a pretty known libertarian for the past like twenty or thirty years, you know what I mean. Like, it doesn't it shouldn't be shocking, you know what I mean.

I think that when people don't know and then they see you're doing something and they're like, oh, that doesn't stand in line with like what that guy has been doing for the past twenty years, that can be a little weird, I think. Okay, but how about the issue. And I've dealt with people who shy away from this. Let's if you choose either side. If you're an actor, you're playing a role music done right, it's yourself, okay.

So would you be worried about alienating a potentially alienating part of your personality, a part of your already fan base. Excuse me? Sure, I mean you you can you can worry about it. But at the same time, I think that we live so we live in a time of

like extreme inauthenticity, you know. I mean we live in a time where people are like who they are on Instagram is not who they are, and those experiences like, you know, I saw my friend who was just like at a cabin in the snow and it looked beautiful and I was like, oh my god, I'm so jealous, and like it looked magical. And he came back and he was like, it was rats. It was disgusting. He

was like, I would never go back there. And I'm like, oh, it's because it's the exact opposite of what it looked like, you know what I mean. And so I think that being authentic to you are actually cuts through right now. I think you see that with Billie Eilis, you see it with Kanye, you see it with Lana del Rey. I think that and yeah, you are gonna Yeah, I'm sure it'll take off some people. We live in like

a polarized world right now. But like, I think that you have to be I think that you what you gain from being who you are massive is massively overwhelmed what you would lose, Okay, are you ever creating in whatever field, and worried about the audience response, not whether they're gonna like it or not like it, but whether

they're going to react negatively. Where it's coming from. I'm a hyper anxious person that is goes off the rails when I'm giving my Starbucks order, you know what i mean, Like when I'm stepping up the next person in line, I feel like I'm going to lose it because I'm like, you're gonna blow it, You're gonna say it wrong, They're gonna you're gonna take too long. The person behind you is gonna freak out. Um. So yeah, I worry about

it all that stuff all the time. But on some level, I think that it's really it's really important to push ahead and push and push the envelope. I think that like when you look back at like for me at least, when I look back at like Clash Records or Metallic or whatever. You know, like everybody has a different you know, like uh uh inception or yeah or starting point, you

know what I mean. So like you, when you think back on it, Um, Clash changing was hard, you know, I mean it's hard for fans, like when you fall in love with something. It's hard when they change and the thing, but I think sometimes it makes it easier when you're as an adult or an older person, like going back and listening to those things, you're like, God, blessed it this change, because like it's easier for me to like understand and appreciate now. Um so yeah, I

mean I guess I yeah. I think we do think about it and worry about that. But at the same time, I think you can't like live or die by it. You know, you have to. Okay, let's go back to the installation. Are you the type of person I was talking actually with Irving aids Off and he show with about Dom Henley. Don Henley needs to get it exactly right. Everybody's worked with him. It's got to be his thing. And Irving said, it's that one percent that makes a

huge difference. You were talking about the perception of the audience. But what I ask you is that your personality where it's got to be exactly right or do you lift should go? Um I it is my personality to to get it exactly right in the way that like, you know, I was just playing tennis today and my coach was like,

you got like destroyed by this guy. And I was like, but my strokes look like like if they hired me to do play a tennis player in a movie, they wouldn't have to have a double, you know what I mean, Like they would just be like, mis strokes look pretty good.

You know, he looks like he could have played in college. Um. But I think that everyone you know, like growing up and watching the way the Internet has changed and the way that you know, entertainment has changed, there's a danger in making you know, Chinese democracy or whatever the record is, you know, like where you you cook it for too long and you like muddy it, you know what I mean, Like you put too many colors in and you muddy it.

So I think that having a sounding board or like uh being okay with things going out and being like, well it's not perfect, but you know, like it needs to be done, you know what I mean. Okay, But but let's talk on a different thing. Let's just assume, uh, I guess what I'm talking about is that edge, that fine edge, because certainly some of the greatest records of all time were cutting the matter of minutes. Okay, are you someone It's like me, I'm a big skier when

every when the skis everything is really right. Um, that's important to me. Okay, if I go out and the skis are dull and it's an icy day, it's kind of ruined my day. So the question becomes, I guess let's go back to your Starbucks order. Um, is it an O C D thing? I don't think it's an O C D thing. It's more of a um, maybe it is an O C D thing, but it's more let me this on the D your home alone, Yes you leave you ever say, holy funk, did I set the alarm? Did I the uh the uh the grill

on whatever? Yeah, yes I do. But more so my stuff is like, um, when you're at a you know, like I was just at a coffee place and they have the screen where you like sign your fighter on it, and I'm sitting there in my head and I'm like, I mean, we've evolved to the point where we have these screens and these smartphones and everything, and I'm like, but like, what is the germ level on these screens that you have to sign? Like it's got to be like a million fingers on there. And they're like just

it freaked me out. Well, yeah, I know they did that study that they're not gonna get any disease from a toilet seat. But as far as you know the signing on the iPad, I'm not really sure. But uh, okay, but is it a social anxiety? I mean, what is when you when you're uptight about giving your order? What? Why do you think you're uptight? I think that I am I'm thinking about the person behind me, and that I'm taking too long, and that um am I saying it right? And okay, because you you came in here

immediately fall into a groove, you're very easy to talk. Okay, let's just assume we take you to somewhere where people don't know who you are, your name, your fallout. Boy. Should I say, Okay, we're gonna go to a party with twenty people. I I can't go, but you're gonna go alone? You canna say finding say, man, I'm not going alone. I will probably be like yeah, that'll be great, and then like, uh, like an hour before I'll tell you I can't get a babysitter. Okay, which maybe the truth.

Maybe you won't be the truth. Okay, you buy something at best biased one goes to best buy, but you do it fucked up? Okay, came that way? You uptight about returning it? Absolutely? I don't want that conversation. You know what that conversation. Okay, this is not treated. But let's go back to the stadium show. Was it the manager's idea or was it in the air? Was it one of the bands? It is? I think it came from the bands. I think the managers were like, we

can make this happen. Um. I think it would be a would have been a lot harder to get it together without having the same manager, because you can like do like vertical moving, you know, whereas otherwise it's like this fun is this size and like you would not believe the stuff that guys and bands will argue about. Yeah yeah, yeah, Um. So I think it came from the bands, like it was organic and and I knew Rivers and we'd obviously grown up on on Green Day.

Um and so yeah, I mean I and listen like it's like you you get asked like where you want to ski? Like everybody has like a like an ultimate version of like what it is like for guys in or girls in rock bands. It's like a stadium, you know, festival, Like these are like these things that you yeah, absolutely gotta you gotta do it, you know what I mean, Like you want to do it, you know what I mean. And so yeah, it's it's just about like making it work, you know what I mean. Okay, so your build in

all the building I've seen is the middle act? Was that hard to work out? Irrelevant of the fonts uh that we were playing, that we were in the middle or that we were was it hard to work out? No, I think that we Yeah, I mean it's hard to work out in the way that like we haven't supported any band in a really long time. So it's just

a different thing, you know. Um, but every time you come back to it, you you know, like every time I like freak out about anything, like my manager will send me like Monsters of Rock posters, like pictures of Rounsters rock posters, and you're like, these guys did this and this was like an epic, epic, epic thing that was bigger than all the bands, you know, and if you're thinking about like who's like one or two of four on those, it's like pretty insane, you know what

I mean. And so uh, yeah, you're you're making things work for the greater good, you know what I mean? And Okay, is there anything where Okay, I'm gonna go out and blow away the head miner? Sure, of course. I mean there's of that. I mean in the way that like you want to Okay, so this is this is what it is. So we played the we played at the at the Whiskey, the three of us, three bands played and there's part of you that's like, I want to do this and like it's different and whatever.

And then you know, you're I'm watching Green Day play and I'm like, damn, but they have these songs. And we played the probably the best small club show that we could have ever played. And when Green Day played, they had these songs that were like baked in people's cultural DNA, you know what I mean. And it was like seeing basket case in this tiny room. I'm just like,

it's just bigger. It's just the difference between like opening like a bottle of wine that's like from the basement of a seller of a French chateau, versus like screaming eagle. It's just like it's just different, you know what I mean, Like it's had like fifty years and going to the minor point. Are you into wine? Do like wine? Okay? But you into you know, you're also collecting you mentioned screaming eagle. Okay, I I've got a tastings I've I'm not like uh no, I'm not like a real collector

of one. Do you collect anything? Uh? Yeah? I um let me think, what are What are some things that I'm like really into collecting. I have like all my eighties toys? Uh you have the original ones? Who you rebought them? No, they're all the originals. I'm like a kind of like a what like literally from age five seven that kind of toys. Okay, your parents, you have any brothers or sister. I do have a younger brother and younger sister. Okay. Hempic was the house. It was

I guess. I grew up in a upper middle class and it was I guess my mother. She threw all my ship up. My parents tried to and I would like lose my mind, you know what I mean. Like it was like and there and I'm probably should be in some kind of therapy session for this, but I would like, you know, like and eventually they just packed it all when they moved out of the house. Moved downsized. They um, they just shipped it all to me in boxes. Okay, So other than your toys, what do you have from

your childhood? Oh? Man, I have a blanket that I have all my baseball cards which are worth and those would be worth Yeah, so I'm from like I got my baseball cards are from like the junk era, so like everything. Yeah. So uh that Ken Griffin is just now worth a right? Um? What else do I have that I collect? Uh? I collected vinyl for a little bit, but nothing that crazy. Can you get rid of any of this ship? What is it? Marie condo? Is that what it is? Because you know, Marie now selling a

product that's the whole thing. Right, that's like the dream. Right, you get somebody to get rid of everything, and then like you all of a sudden have a brand, so you gotta like sell the merch. Although I will say I don't want to go uh you know, make light of all the people's houses burned down, But I am a real hoarder and sometimes say, well, you know, as long as they have my computer, if the whole house

burned out, it might be liberating, right. Mine would definitely be Mine would definitely be liberating, uh, except I can get my kids stuff out. But um, there's definitely a point where like I was like, I'm just I'm just a collector. And then I like looked at pictures of this stuf. People were showing me pictures of my stuff, and it like looks like hoarder stuff, you know what I mean? And I guess that's how it how it

switches from collecting to hoarding. Is that like you don't know right, Like there's like some like it's interesting, it's in your DNA, and there's some dys morphia. There's some dysmorphia, right because you look at it and it doesn't look like okay, may look like junk to you, but I know we're literally everything right, and if you reorganized that I won't know where it is. And everything has sentimental I just moved and for the first time ever, I threw a lot of stuff out, stuff that I would

never throw out. And the cliche, unfortunately is true in that you don't miss it. But there's a couple of things I threw out a few years ago that I still miss So how got a house do you live in? How many square feet is it? I don't know it's all in the garage. But I can't but I can't park in the garage. Okay. And it's how many car garage? Three car garage? So the three three things are full of your ship? Yeah, okay. And then there's a storage you did okay? How far? How far away is the

storage you? I have a close one in a far okay. You you go on the road. Okay. There's lamb and it's there's all kinds of stuff. You save all that ship, A lot of it? I save. Yeah, I saved every lamb in it. Okay. So we're in the house. What other How easy is it for you to throw out anything? Like the newspaper. I have an issue with other people throwing my things away. Oh man, this is my girlfriend. I what do you do? But I can do it? Yeah, but I have a problem with other people making the call.

I have a huge problem and I want to And it's like it's not super healthy, right, there's different I see a special doctor for this. Okay. Have you ever been in therapy? Okay, Well, it turns out regular therapy doesn't work for o c D. You have to go to a special person and it's called exposure therapy. Okay, And there's two things. I don't know if you have

any issues. Like one of my issues is if you say, if one of those can't has like big skulls and bones on it, it's very hard for me to touch that. So first you work up your way to touch that. Then hoarding. They actually send somebody to my house once to teach me how to get rid of it. Okay, and uh, there's definitely treatment for it. It's you know, it comes down to two things. One the O c D thing is you're crippling your life by when it comes to the stuff, whether you have enough space for it.

Sounds like you do, I mean kind of. I mean I definitely was hold that our garage was dangerous the other day, dangerous way something might fall. I guess that's something might tip on somebody or fall or something. Yeah. Yeah, I had that experience after the earthquake. You weren't in l A. The earthquake now living in Santa Monica really shook. And I had my vinyl records all the way up to the ceiling, and I said, and I moved. I was just afraid if they fall, if anybody's lying on

the couch, gonna kill them. But okay, let's go back to the tennis. You play tennis at a club or you have a court or what I don't have a court. I play like at either public courts or I played like there's this one in the valley that's it's like just barely kind of the valley that's called Weddington that is like it's like public, but you pay so then you don't have to like wait, you know, so it's like how good a tennis player are you? Oh? Man, So they have levels? Uh, I guess I would be

a four oh or a four or five? Four oh for sure? Not really explain what the levels are for those people on sophisticated um. It goes through like whether you're able to just hit return a shot, of whether you well to know the correct positioning, or whether you're able to hit an aggressive offensive shot. And like for instance, like like Gavin Gavin Rossdale, I think he's probably like a four or five or five if not beyond you know,

what's the lowest? I don't know. I guess one maybe or five yeah, But like I think after you get past maybe six or seven, maybe it goes to a professional somethime. So how often do you play? Oh boy, I don't know if I need to go on record, if somebody's listening that I tell that, I go to like that. I'm you know, in meetings, I play out too much. You play every day. I play every day. Okay, what if you miss a couple of days. You're cool with that, or you have a jones to get back

out there. I definitely have a jones to get back out there. And did you play tennis as a kid? I did not very well, but yeah I did. Okay, how did you get back into it? I just played it,

goofing around and I played. And it's just one of those ones that like is addictive the way, whether it would be skiing, you know, like once you you get back in the rhythm, you're like, oh, I could just do this every day, Like if somebody was like you could just do I used to ski every day and over Christmas ice ski twenty six out of twenty seven days. You get a fine edge when you do it every day,

and that fine edge is very rewarding. Person may not even tell by looking at you, but like with this, you know you can get to that shot. You know you can get it back over the net because once you're in that groove and you go out and play or ski, when you're not in that groove, it's depressing because people say, oh you look, they say, no, I know I can do this, and I'm not that I can't.

And tennis is one of those like really messed up ones where like you'll like that's similar to golf, and I think golf is the more extreme version where you like, we'll play one day and you're the best player you've ever been, and then you played the next day and you're like literally the worst. You know what I mean. It's like one of those like super frustrating. Right certainly is okay, So how did you get back into tennis?

I just like started playing and I just played a couple of times, goofing around, and then like I just got super into it. I think I had a ton of time and I got super into it, and then I like went and started playing on tour when we like in Australia, I played like with some of like the AUSSI pro women and basically like you go from being like I watched it on TV, maybe I could like do this, and then like I they this this one woman hit literally she was like, I'll serve one

real one to you. And it was like I just tried to move out of the way. I mean, it wasn't even like about returning it. And I was like, okay, So like this is like not in the cards of Like I remember when I was a little kid, I used to play a lot of golf. Was never good. And you got with someone who really dos how to play. They're just not hitting the ball, they're working it. You have to spin to be at that elite level. I mean obviously Michael Jordan could never play baseball. So let's

go back to the beginning. So you grew up where in the Chicago area, the North Side, like the suburbs of Chicago which met Wineka. We basically grew up. We're like, so like Breakfast Club was set at my my high school, but did they film it or just set in terms of it was filmed there? So like basically every John Hughes movie was set in Shermerville or whatever. And Shermerville

is not a real place. But there was a road that ran between me and the guitarist Joe of our bands town his town in my town, and it was shermer Road. And so like everything was based on that. Like Home Alone was like one block from his house, which is where we had had practice. But it's basically like this, Like it's all those every one of those movies is basically like that our town, you know what I mean. Okay, So you grow up, you're the oldest kid.

Your parents have all their hopes and dreams invested in you. I think that I had. I don't know about that, but I think that my parents had like, um, I was like the experiment, you know what I mean. So I was the one that like, you're an experiment because of their parenting style or by nature of being the first kid. Uh both. I think in the way that like, let's go back, your parents had you. How old or young were they? Um, my dad was thirty and I

think my mom was twenty nine. Okay, so that's all reasonable. And as your mother working outside the house at that point, she was before I before the young Prince came along, okay, and then I think okay, and your father did what for a living? He was a lawyer, was still a lawyer, still practicing. Yeah, you refer to yourself as the young prince. Okay. My mom called me the uh, when I was born the Prince of Edgewater. We lived in this uh part of Chicago called Edgewater Village, I think, And so she

called me the Prince of Edgewater. But it was your risk or she really treated you like a prince. I think it was humorous. I don't. I don't think my mom really, I don't know. I'm not really sure, you

know what I mean. Like I I look at all these pictures of me when I was little, and I'm in yellow and all of them, and she was like, uh, you know, like people just didn't have People didn't go and look at what their baby was beforehand unless there was a problem, Like you wouldn't we just wouldn't, you know what I mean? And so like we just had yellow because we thought you might be a girl. You just never know. And I was like, yellow, such an interesting color to put a baby in a bunch of time,

a bunch of the time, you know. Okay, So if I had your two siblings here, would they say you were the prince and the favored child or they'd say, oh, we're all equal. I think that my my my sister um in some ways because it's two boys and a girl. And I think that she got um some special attention. She was. She was different. She was also like of us was the was the easiest, you know. I mean she's the middle and she was just she was just easy. You know. I don't think I would think I was

like pretty. I was like difficult in the way that like I dye my hair and I'd do a band and you know, like it was just all you know, like I left college, you know what I mean, Like it was just all like I was, yeah, you know, and it was as the first Okay, what is what are your sister and brother do? Uh? My sisters studied family sociology maybe um and she is stay at home mom in Chicago with three kids, and my brother is

a fine artist in New York. Successfully. Yeah, I think so, I mean off the parents pay roll, off the parents pay roll. I think he I don't really like it's the same thing as like I have a little bit of a of a guy in a band's perception of like what my dad and my brother do, because they like explain it to me, and I'm like I kind of understand, but I don't really because he were he does marketing as well, you know what I mean? So I don't really fully understand. Okay, and you're close with

your family and your siblings, Yeah, definitely. So you grow up, are you good in school or bad? I was always like a very like I had to like, um, not living up to your potential kind of thing, you know what I mean. It was like a lot of like test Well doesn't do a lot of people that doesn't. And you're like the you know, the king of the class, the class count clown and outcast. Where do you fit in? I never out like I fit in where I lived. Um, I don't. Yeah, I just I don't feel like I

really looked like anybody. And I didn't really like understand the way people kind of like did their thing. And my family was always the family that like we were like a little bit like the weird family. Like my parents would have us go eat it like Ethiopian restaurants and stuff like that, and I was just like I just want to eat fucking McDonald you know what I mean. It's like I just wanted to be normal, you know.

And now I appreciate it and I understand it, but like at the time, it was like, um, yeah, and so I don't I don't think I really felt like I fit in. I think I was like probably always trying to goof around to fit in. Maybe did you have friends? Yeah, I kind of had friends. I kind of was friends with everybody, you know what I mean, like but like not, I don't. I didn't have like close friends until I was a little older. Okay, So

were they playing music in your house? My dad played a ton of like um, like Temptations and a ton of like Fogerty, Like it was like anything that was under, Like a lot of the stuff was under, like the like the oldiest station I guess in my town. Um, and like my first concert he took me to was Jimmy Buffett, you know what I mean, which is so I was I think I just wanted to go to a concert so bad that it was like it was pretty cool. And I thought like Margaritaville and like Cheeseburger

and Paradise were like pretty catchy songs. So um yeah, because I think I just wanted to go to concert. My dad was like, I'll take you to this one, and I was like, I want to say I was like ten or eleven, and then like the summer that I was fourteen, which was what year or thirteen, which was so I graduated in nineties seven, so you were born like in yeah. So yeah. So this summer, uh basically all at the same similar timing, maybe not the whole summer, but like, uh, we were at this lake

house uh that my parents would go to. Um. It was like kind of like a group lakehouse. I don't really not explain it. It's like family camp or something like that. And I water skied, but like the older kids all slalom water skied, and all I wanted to do was slalom because it looked like a juicy for commercial. Also, Terminator two came out, um, and all I wanted to do was see that movie, but it was radar and I think my parents didn't let me. And then I

think it was that summer. In the next summer in Metallica, Guns and Roses went a stadium tour and all I want to do was go to the show, and my parents were like, you're not going to that show. So it was like this like it was all wrapped to me. It's all wrapped up in the same thing kind of you know. Okay, did you have the Metallica and Guns

and Roses albums? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I said, I had the Guns and Roses album in my mom's car on tape, and I would have to sit there and turn down the swear because I knew when the squares were coming, and this is when they had like Getting the Ring, like and I had that whole getting the Ring speech, you know, like, yeah, you'd be ripping off the kids to paying their hard earn money to read about the man's they want to know about talking ship writting? Do

you want to antagonize me? Antagonize me? You know, Like I had that whole speech memorize and I would be turning it up and down, like trying to like get to swears like basically like you know, to put hi cough buttons from my mom in the car because I was like this music school, it's cool, trust me, don't worry. But then I would like have to like you know, self edited. Okay, but how did you get into Metallica

Guns and Roses? Um? So I had a group of friends that like skateboarded and and that kind of stuff, and I don't know how they got into it. I think there might have been an older brother, um Nick Poole and his older brother maybe Alex Pool I think maybe like made a tape this is back. I don't know people would make tapes and would have a bunch of different songs on it and uh, you know, like Metallica and Slayer and stuff. But did your parents buy you albums or was it mostly these tapes? That was

those tapes? And I don't think my parents, like my parents would not buy me an album like that. I don't think. So did they buy you any albums? Man? Did they buy me? I think that there was, like, yeah, I'm sure there was like um, like R and B stuff for like stuff that like my parents would also listen to was okay to be bought. But like I don't even think. I don't even know if it came

into Like I don't even know. And this is weird because like this is not how people and I'm a I'm a parent of three, this is not how people parent anymore. But like I don't I think I might have been nervous to ask my parents for it, or like I just expected that they were it was gonna be a no, So I just didn't even Like it wasn't even in the like wheelhouse, like it wasn't like it would never I would never think to ask, Okay, so those are all hard edge? Was that the only

music you were into at the time, for sure? And then I got even harder. I got into punk rock, and I got into like death metal and like, so you never went to the Guns and Roses Metallica tour, you know. I went to Guns and Roses at Dodger Stadium maybe two years ago, and it was amazing because it was like all these people that had kind of

like um been like stuck and frozen in time. It felt like, you know what I mean, And I was one of them, you know, I mean, because like you're in the merch and it just kind of like looked like you'd just like come out from underground and you're like Guns and Roses still around in two thousands, seventeen

or whatever I always say. And I saw Guns and Roses when they played a week at the Forum after Use Your Illusion, you know, when and two came out, And that was still when they were coming on hours late, and they were phenomenal. But like when I go to see the Stones now, well, when I when the Stones first started doing really the stadium towards whatever, like a couple of decades ago, I always thought it was the people who were afraid to go the first time it

was too dangerous. Now they had leather jackets. Was that

like going to the Guns and Roses Show. I think that the Guns and Roses Show was a little different in the way that because they went away for so long, so I think a lot of people were like, I'll never see him again, you know, And and it was people who would like and I think in a weird way it kind of like you could speak about it in in our band, like having to two different portions of our career, because there was a lot of people like me who was like just too young or told

that you couldn't go or something, and then you came. And I think that the way I experienced it was like and the music and art has a funny way of doing this. We were like it tricks you, like where I was like experiencing it as a fourteen year old, you know what I mean. So I'm sitting there and I'm in the crowd, and like I came around. I went with like four people and like some of them were like, I don't know, this is like this kind of goofy or whatever. But for me, it was just

like wish fulfillment. I was like, okay, like I didn't want to go my friends and the agents, etcetera. I don't want to go a because Izz he wasn't in the act. And two I had good memories and want there are a number of acts like that I won't go see again. So okay, you have those things you don't go to the show. Did you grow up playing, taking piano lessons or any of that. Ship I grew up taking piano lessons. I didn't want to do it. I quit. My mom was like, you're gonna regret this,

and like it's the like stereotypical. I definitely regret it. How long did you take piano lessons for it? I took four or five years. Yeah, but I'll be honest, it never got to the point. And like I see these piano teachers now and I have to give like a huge, huge shout out. Is uh and maybe they existed, they just don't think exist and maybe where I was, But uh, it's fun now, Like I like my kids do like imagine dragons and and and Star Wars song,

you know. I like it's like they do like fun things and real things and they're reading music and it's like making it fun and making it relatable, you know, like I don't think it was the way I was doing it was like not super relatable, just sitting there doing scales and you know, I don't know, can you still read music? I could read music for piano, I can't read music for guitar. But okay, so when do you make the switch? When do you start picking up

the bass or whatever? You pick up? Bass is a funny one because it's the instrument that, like, people always need bassis and it's always the one that like people before there, everyone was like, you know, like a DJ. People were like, oh, I could probably play that one. It's only got four strings. And I think I was like, you know, my friends were doing a punk band, and I was like, sure, this one's got this one seems easier to learn, you know what I mean. So they

decided to do a band before you actually played the bass. Yeah, I mean definitely. This wasn't Fallout Boy, but it was other punk bands and whatever. Okay, so what do you say, mom and dad, I need a bass because I gotta

be in this punk band. No, no, no no no. It was like so scrappy then, where it was just like you were trading and you were borrowing, and the older brothers had things, and you know what I mean, Like it was like, no, for sure, I think my parents actually would have been supportive of me having a musical instrument of some kind. But I think this was like my thing, you know, like or whatever ports around it, but it was like mine, So I just wanted to do it my way. Okay, So you learned on the fly.

You formed the band first, and then you learned how to play. Yeah, I learned. I learned how to play like in in the practices, Yeah for sure. And you know I you know, I could play the guitar. I can't imagine playing the bass, especially fretless bass. So how long did it take for you to say, Okay, I kind of understand that us we're getting there. Still think, well, whatever I mean, Lars went back for drum lessons long

into Metallica's career. Did you ever go to professional or try to listen to records try to replicate and learn from people who were pros. Yeah for sure. And like for me, like a lot of like metronome work and and and and timing and and playing things that aren't in the wheelhouse to fall out boy to kind of like figure some of that out. And like honestly with Patrick our singer, like he's um so predator, naturally musically gifted,

Like it's just to me off the charts. Bizarre. It's like when you just somebody you know, like throws the ball and you're like, oh, he just like knows how to do it. He does that with like every instrument kind of you know whatever. Um, he'll help me with stuff, you know what I mean. So now you're playing in punk bands, you're in the high school. Is it the type of thing where it's extracurricular or is it impinging on your studies? I didn't care about my studies in

high school. Yeah. Well they sent me to uh, they sent me to a boot camp in um, New Hampshire. How old were you when you went to the boot camp? I think this all happened around fourteen fifteen. Okay, what was the straw that broke the camel's back that made them send you to the boot camp? I think it was missing like day eighty one at school something like that. I'd like, Okay, when I went to school, it was like a police state and if you didn't go and

you didn't they called your house. Yeah, this was like one of those ones where you could figure out all these different ways to like kind of uh, there's ways to game it, I think at the time, like where you could build up your free periods and you can. Okay, and this was regular public high school. This is public high school. And then thisbly my last year a public high school though. Okay, so for three years it worked for no because this is like age fourteen, fifteen, so

this was one year. Okay, that's what I thought. So what you're you're out of junior high, you're in the HIG school. Okay. Was this out of the blue or were they trying to discipline you first? Oh, I'm sure they were disciplining me. Like my parents were pretty pretty good about discipline or they were pretty you know, straight and narrow. But at the same time, like my dad was the kind of guy that would be like Adar.

We played at this play this venue in Chicago called the Fireside Bowl, which is bowling alley, but they would kind of like let shows happen, but the guy was pissed that shows happened there, which is like all these great venues in Chicago. Like the guy like regrettably. Yeah, something would come and say, hey I can increase your business then totally. But my dad would be at all these shows with like the tie in the back, yeah, which is pretty cool. My father came to one of

my Little League games. I mean he had virtues but supported me in my dreams by showing up. Never so in any event, Okay, why what did they say when

they were going to send you into Hampshire? Um? I think it was like, you know, like it was like we talked about like it was like, you know, getting me back on the straight and narrow kind like no, no, no, And like now it's easy to like look back and be like, well it's fine because you were taking these these these turns because you're doing art and you want

to do this that. But like I think that that had it gone a different way, they'd be like this is this was the turning point when we could have gotten you back, you know what I mean? So how long did you go to the Hampshire for? I think

I was there a month. Maybe it's like ridiculous. It was like you know those giant like gatorade bottles, the ones that like they have for teams or whatever, Like one day, they would have you dig a hole and put it in the ground, and then the next day they would have you dig it up and take it out of like just like no, you know, like just kind of like how many other kids were there? Oh?

I would say that there was like a hundred. Maybe boys and girls are just boys, boys and girls coad, but you were only with boys, okay, And it was like all uh I was in there with the the lightest record. Okay, that's my point. It's like going to jail from the other people. No, I was terrified. I was scared of everybody there, you know what I mean. I was like, oh my god, these people are all like actual criminals, and so they have to decide when you get out or was a month set up in advance.

I think you were supposed to come to some like um moment of clarity, but I don't know that I did. But I think you were supposed to come to some like I'm a changed kid, or like I'm a new boy or whatever. You know. I got something like that, you know what I mean? Okay, And so when you went back, did you go back on the straight and narrow. No. So when I went back, I went to a private school, and um my mom was the dean of admissions or

assistant dean of admissions at the private school. So it was very interesting in the way that like, if I ever got in trouble there, I would just go to my mom's office, and that's like about a hundred million times worse than going to the actual I can imagine, you know what I mean. So that got me on the straight and narrow in a weird way because it was just like your mom's just like at school with you. Okay, so you graduate from that school and you actually go

to college for a while. I did. I went to DePaul University for local Okay, how long did you actually go? I went for so I know. So when I graduated, I went to UM Columbia in Chicago, and then I transferred to DePaul and I went there for you go to Columbia for like six months maybe I think that, And then I went to the Paul four I think maybe a year or year and a half. Okay, did you fit in inpl I did? I think that? Like, uh, in in colleges in in bigger colleges. It was a

little bit like the movie Higher Learning. You can find your like your group. Well, I went to a small college. I stood out. I came to l a if I'm you know, a million people just like big so you

can find like if you're at a if. I think, if you're in a big enough place, you can find your group and kind of find people like minded poll and I actually liked, like, I like like the basketball players there, Like there was a lot of people there that, like I think I would not have probably come across or like you know, like had interactions with that that because I was there, I did, and I liked a lot of the people. But we were doing the band at the same time, so it was like, okay, so

why did you drop out? We were doing the band. We were doing Fallout Boy, and it was we were doing with the way we did the band at the time was like it's so weird, Like you know, I talked to my manager about it now and he's like, so bizarre he did it, but like we would basically be like, well, what did like Molly Crue and those bands do back in the day, And it was like

they we pasted flyers and like stuff like this. We were like on roofs like wheat pasting flyers, which was something that like no one did at the time, you know, I mean at all, And so it was just like it's I think that maybe stood out a little bit. Um. But we were doing about like forty hours of like work, forty plus hours of work in the band, and then you were going to school for you know, thirty ended school. Uh my, my parents did I could take a year off to see how the band went, you know, I

mean yeah, and so that's this year. I'm in the year. Okay, so you're playing the base, you're playing in punk bands. At what point do you say, Wow, this could be a real direction. This is what I want to do, like as like live on it. Um. That came super super super super late. Uh, because our band's trajectory was like really bizarrely slow, you know, like it's like the

eight year overnight or whatever. You know. Um. Now, so I was like we were playing in it, but we were like and we were like doing the band full time, but we lived in our parents basements and stuff, and we were just on tour in a van and like we didn't have label support, you know. I mean, so it wasn't like Okay, let's go back you're in the punk band. What's the evolution there to fall Out Boy. We were just in the like a million different bands, and I think that we were getting paid for gigs.

I mean paid in like pizza or whatever. You know. I mean like not making anybody. It's fun. It's fun, and um, are you good with girls at that age? Real bad? I was just like fine. I think, okay, well this, you're playing the bass in a band, You're playing all these gigs. I figured that must do well for you romantically in the narrow when that's very important. I don't think. I don't think it was like the band wasn't like cool, you know. I mean it was

like a dorky punk band. You know, they're dorky punk bands. Dorky punk bands. How does that evolve into fall Out Boy? We actually wanted to I think we when we the

inception of it was like we wanted to do. Um. It's funny because I think we got in these heavier bands that we took really seriously before, Like, so we went from these punk bands, We got into these heavier bands that we took super super seriously, like a heavier like metal was yeah, metal, hardcore, that kind of stuff, And we wanted to just be in these like heavy bands that we like kind of like looked up to um and that was like a grind, you know what

I mean, Like because you're screaming and you're you know, like it was just kind of thankless. I think, unless you're in one of those big bands, it's a little thankless and you just do it over night in, night out. So we wanted to do something that was just fun

on the side, and that's what fall Boy was. Okay, And but it was different people originally, right, it was all the same people except for the drummer was different, okay, So they were all and was everybody agreeing that this would be a good thing to do, agreeing that it would be a fun thing to do. I don't think that. It was almost like Clay grishasen. You know, the innovator's dilemma. You have a disruption, At what point do you realize

that's more successful than the scream? Oh thing? Oh man, that's a good um, you know, I guess at the point when you're playing. We were playing shows in Chicago, and well, first it became that our friends, more than

just our friends were coming to the shows. It wasn't just people we were like begging to come to the shows, and this is like pre really the internet wasn't what the internet is now, you know what I mean, So like this is what one but like it just wasn't like there was like chat rooms and like email lists and there was message boards, but they weren't really what

they are now, you know what I mean. And so it's turned from more than just our friends coming two shows to the fire Marshal showing up at like every show that we played in Chicago and being like this show shut down, there's too many people? How many people? It would be like we would be in like a Knights of Columbus hall that fit like two people and we would try to put like seven people in it, I mean, and it would be like and every show got shut down. Okay, how much do you think was

word of mouth? And how much do you think was was sheer elbow grease with your promotion with with the flyers and all the pasting up the everything. People always ask this, you know, like they're like, how much of

it you know? How much do we need to go on tour versus how much do we you know, need to be in the studio and how much you know is you know, and I think you have to do it all and to me, you know, like I think there isn't intangible like when the four of us are on stage, it's for some reason different than when one of us does a different day or something like that,

for whatever reason that is. But I do think that, you know, like if you're not gonna get up tomorrow morning and go and do the radio interview, someone else is gonna go do it, you know. I mean like there is like something to be said for like this is you need to be ambitious and go out And

do you still feel that today twenty years later? Sure it's in a different way, but yeah, absolutely, Well I don't think you can go right the same like punk record when you have like kids and you're debating whether they should be in like a monostory school or not. Like it's just like it's not going to sound the same.

But I do think that's what like the Hella Mega toward the Stadium tour is to me, you know what I mean, Like it's like we wouldn't do that unless we were there was an ambition to be in a state siphically about the music. Obviously you have your well known tracks if the audience wants to hear in today's are Although you have a very loyal fan base, how do you feel not making the record but playing that stuff live? And how much do you want to play live?

Oh that's a good question. Um. I think for a band like us, it's like our our things always our our attempt has always been to create a culture. And so I don't think that just sitting at home will be you know, in the sandbox will really work, you know, in the sandboxing living room. Um. But at the same time, like yeah, I mean, like playing live becomes different and like how much how many of the songs are you playing?

Like we're playing a seventy minutes set in stadiums and so we got to like figure out what that would

be and what songs we should be playing. But um, we're I think we're Our band is really interesting in the way that like we have one full kind of like the music business is probably has the biggest chasm that it's ever had in my in my time of being alive, between the old business and the new business, and our band is a band that's like got a foot in both, like has seen both a little bit, you know, so it's it's interesting and like, you know, like some people will be like, you know, like you

guys should only do singles or you know, like the album doesn't matter, and like for us, it's like we're kind of like all over the place, and I think we have to do what makes the most sense authentically, and I think that that's like that will be the only payoff for us. I think chasing a thing or

whatever like won't. That won't work. Okay, But most acts in general, okay, they have assuming they have hits, they have their hit period and then they're encased in amber and they just basically play those hips until nobody wants to see them anymore to every increasing crowds. So I was talking to Pete Tongue and he talking about in terms of DJs, and he says, well, you need to reinvent yourself. Do you feel that at all of fawom? Yeah,

And it's really it's a it's an interesting time. But it's interesting in the way that like, when you've been doing anything for twenty years, how do you have inspiration that's different than you had twenty years ago when you were probably hungrier and you wanted it more and you were you've never done it before, you know, um, yeah, because I mean that you have what a lifetime to write your first song whatever it is, you know what

I mean? And and to me, it's like that's why we worked with We worked with this kid, Burner Boy from Lagos on the last record. Like, I just think you have to kind of like, uh, go outside your comfort zone in order to find new things. There's just a fine line in the way that like there's a difference between us going and working with burna boy uh and writing a song with him than like me feeling extreme anxiety to have an account on like TikTok, you know.

I mean, like, I think there's a difference. One like feels like natural and something that like is pushing us to do something that's beyond ourselves, and the other one feels like you could end up being like the old guy that's trying desperately to be I don't know to what degree you follow this stuff. But Justin Bieber tried to juice is Spotify. How do you feel about that.

I don't think that Justin needs to do that to me, you know the funny the record came in at number two, Yeah, I mean, yeah, but like to me, I'm like, Justin's like a big star, a big, super super famous, super talented. If you like watch him. I don't think he needs to you know what I mean, Like, I don't think he well, hey days of indie promotion. To me, that to me, doing that is like beneath him to me. You know my question. Okay, let's go back. So you're

in college. By time you drop out, you take that one year. What is the status of the band? We were playing this place in uh in Chicago. We were headlining finally, this place called the Metro in Chicago, which I think is twelve capacity maybe or something like that, maybe more may We were headlining it. I remember we Uh.

I looked at my parents were like in a you know, the balcony or whatever, and there was like these floating um dildo balloons that were like six ft big, and I remember, I remember I remember throwing one at my mom in the balcony and watching her like stomp this thing into kind of oblivion, and it was like there was like a moment where it was like I think she's gonna like let me keep doing this, you know what I mean? You played the Metro, do you remember

what the payday was. Oh man, I have no idea. There was the Metro. I think at the time before that there was like they would give a lot of a lot of tickets away. So I think this was actually a hard ticket. But I'm not sure and I don't remember the payday was. I can't imagine. It was crazy. You have the dial Doo balloons. Well, how much other production in the mtics did you have in this show? We had a backdrop, which was like a big deal because we I think we had weren't able to hang

our backdrop on tours before that. And that was it. That was the production. Okay, So is that the turning point in your mind saying this could really work? That was the turning point where I was like, my parents are gonna let me do it? Uh. The trajectory was so slow that, like you know, I remember, we were approached by a couple of management companies. They all seemed terrible,

um uh, And we were approached. We we we reached out to what we I think we reached out to Crush, who became our managers, and they were kind of like, yeah, we just like you guys, just do what you do because we kind of had these shows where we just play super fast stuff and okay, so the Crush was the first manager you ever had. They were Yeah, so before were that? Who was the business guy in the band? You're you're talking to him? I think that's what I think.

I wanted you to admit it though. But the funny thing is usually it's the drummer. But okay, so you're making all the deals, You're getting the gigs, etcetera. Oh yeah, and this is like the times where like, so I remember we played we were supposed to play in Baltimore at this tiny club in Baltimore, and we drove in, got to the club and there was like a sign on the door that said the show wasn't happening because

there was snow or something like that. But there was just cell phones weren't really what they are, and the internet isn't like what we were talking about. It wasn't what it was. So it was like figuring this stuff out as like your own booking agent was not super easy. Okay at that point, how much were you working and how broad was your territory. Well, we started in Chicago, the suburbs of Chicago, and we played kind of any show that we could. We would jump on stage and

play on the Piel's equipment. From there, I think we played Detroit, and then we played Cleveland and then Indian Apple Lists and then we would just we just begged for tours. We couldn't really get tours. This band Punchline took us out graciously super early, kind of everywhere with them, which was awesome. This band um you know, and and then you know, getting ahead to when I don't know, we we we ended up signing to a record label and uh. From there, this band Less than Jake took

us on tour a bunch. Okay, listen, Jake is still working right, Okay, So when you drop out of college, I assume you're like twenty years old. Ye how long after that did you get the record deal? Maybe a year later? And this was a deal with an indie, you know what I mean? Was there any I know that, was there any money? Man? We had an upstream they had an upstream deal with with Island, but I don't think it didn't do anything on the LP that we put out, so it wasn't There wasn't really much okay,

and who recorded who produced it? We had this guy named Shano Keith that we really liked. That was a local hero that recorded the whole the whole album. So how long did it take you to make that album? I want to say this is a time when it took about okay, So standard would be that it would take us three months to make an album, but this

one we couldn't afford anything. So like there was a time when we were we were working at the studio called Smart Studio in Madison where they recorded some of Nirvana and some garbage and um garbage of the band

not garbage, and we couldn't afford anything. So we they would get us like a case of sprite and a case of coke every week, and we were like, instead of this case of coke and sprite, can you just get us bread and peanut butter and gella because we just have any money, um, and we're sleeping on the floors.

Um yeah, we kind of like people are like, well was there, Like you know, like why are these songs and the records like these are the only songs we had and these are the only songs we could afford, so what is the big break? The big break it is? So we signed to Fuel by Raman an indie record label. Okay,

how did that happen? Uh? This guy named John Janet. Yeah, he called us up and was like, I want to do so he found Yeah, and we and I have a book, not a book, but I could make a book, a coffee table book of rejection letters from every indie label on the planet. Okay, so you were working at had you worked Fueled by Raman? We sent them a we sent them a yeah, we sent them a demo. Yeah, but we didn't really We said he was not responding

to the demo we heard about you. Otherwise he must have heard about us from like MP three dot com or something like that. Yeah, okay, so he were there any moments before Janet called you? We said, oh, this is gonna be the moment, but it turned out it wasn't. There were other labels that I really wished we'd I really wanted to sign to UM and they just didn't.

We just didn't sign us. Okay, so Janet calls you when you say, yes, he called us and like, I'm you know John Janet and and and I've run this label with Vinny from Less than Jake and usually the other bands that are on the label, and this is the thing. And we were like, what is this like a sky label? I really know what's going on, but he was so excited and he was so uh about magnifying our vision that it seemed right. Um, and so yeah, we we signed to this little label from Gainesville. Okay,

but you ultimately went to Ireland. So was this a one record deal? How did you work it out? It was? It was a one record deal with an option. They could pick up the option for how many records? Oh? So I don't know if we I think you know at the when we when we upstreamed. I'm sure either we renegotiated before that record or renegotiated after that record for like five or six albums. Okay, so just Fueled by Ramen still get a piece of all those records.

I don't know how their exact money works, but I would yes that they got a piece of John got a piece of like Futures or something like that on our next two records or something like that. But I'm gonna assume it all probably had to change when fuel by Roman became a part of Atlantic Records. I think that it probably had to be because I don't think Ireland wants to send them. Okay, when you make the deal with fuel by Ramen, you have a real music lawyer. Uh we did, Yeah, I think we we we have

the Uh we have the same lawyer. I would think, I don't really know, um, but yeah we had a real music layer. Because Crush was smart about that. I would say, Okay, you were with Crush before you were with Janet. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they helped us. They were pretty instrumental in getting us there. Okay, so the record comes out. What is the moment you realize this is gonna break? Well, that record, I was like, it's not gonna break. It felt good. It was good. It was

really big underground. We were that band that like every kid knew and no adult knew, you know. I mean like we were the most famous band with kids and no adults. Like we were not famous at all, you know what I mean, Like you can walk down the street and you could not We couldn't open a taco bell, you know, I mean like it's uh. And then um we signed to Island. Uh. We had this song Sugar We're going down on a record from under the Cork Tree.

We basically were like, we want to do a video for this song, and we didn't get any airplay, We got no ads, nothing. Uh. We did a video for this song, Sugar, We're Going Down. We wanted to do a video that just all the videos we were pitched were like party in the backyard, the kids are hanging out, they fall in the pool like something, you know, and whatever. And it was like, these videos are not going to be good. And so we had one video that wasn't

like that. It was or one um treatment that wasn't like that, and we got it was like here boy, and it was so bizarre. And so we did that and our fans were were into it, and they basically ran it up t r L and then once it was on tr L, like this is the way it worked at the time, I guess, And so it ran up on tr L and then again this is two three maybe, and it got added to radio and then got crossed and that kind of stuff. How did you

handle that you personally? Before the record came out, I was like, oh my god, is this thing going to be all over because we're on the precipice of something either really big or very small. Um And then yeah, and then it was like going zero to like light speed, you know what I mean. And it was, it was,

it was. It was strange because I don't even know how I handled it because it was also compressed, like you know, like it was so many things happened in such a little amount of first there must have been excited, man, when you realized it was happening. Yeah, But like I think, I'm one of those people that's always like, maybe is it really happening? Kind of you know, I mean, so even after it was happening. So at this late date, do you have a feeling that maybe you could all disappear? Now?

I have a feeling that we could go on stage and nobody would care or nobody would be there for sure. Every time before, let's just as soon, for the sake of discussion, you never go on the road again. You've got enough money to get to the end, yeah, I think, so, okay, so let's go back. The band breaks, suddenly you become this big entrepreneur. Okay, you're signing other acts, whatever, How

does that start? I always thought of the band and everything all of it as like something bigger, like the thing that I always liked about like punk rock music was it was like it was a world you know, like you create a world, and you know, like Billy Joel and Metallica and all these artists that I really love, Kanye Out like all these artists I love, created like something that was bigger that you could kind of like go there, you know what I mean. And so that's

what I always thought of it as. And so there was merch, but it all felt cohesive to me. Like the thing that I like, the thing I've always felt about, like the label and and the bands that I've signed, is the like the thing that people I like the most about Seinfeld is they walk into each other's apartments, you know what I mean, Like Cramer could walk in at any time. Like it's cool that like they that Jerry like them individual individually are interesting, but it's really

interesting that they're all friends with each other. That's what I always thought about, like the the bands, you know what I mean. Okay, So how did you decide that you're gonna have your own label and signed bands? Uh? I first heard this band Gym Class Heroes, and thought it was super clever and didn't fit in anywhere, And I took it to my label, uh, to my Too Island at the time, and and I think. They were kind of like, I don't this doesn't make any sense,

and like, would you have to sign a band? You know what I mean? So I was like, well, that's not gonna work. Uh, And so I went back in a called Janet and he was Janet is is very very very good at betting on horses, and he's very good at like, um, like I said, magnifying a vision, you know what I mean. And so he he and he understood all the stuff that I didn't like understand. Like he was like, we're gonna do an end cap here and like this is what the you know what

I mean? And I was like, I don't really like I don't want to be I don't I don't care about that part of it really, you know. I mean I might care about it more than other guys in bands, but I don't really care about it. And so he was like, yeah, let's sign them together, and so we signed Jim Class Heroes and then the guys in Panic of the Disco um Ryan at the time, one of the guitarists in the band was kind of like he was like, your band sucks to me, and it was

like and I was like, what what is this? Kid saying, and he was like, oh, yeah, check out my band. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go check this band out and I'm gonna come back here and tell this guy how bad his band is and uh, because it was just a human reaction. Um, and I went and listened. I was like, this band is like maybe one of the best man's I've ever heard, and um when they called panic at the disco, they where they were they were and how what what were they doing?

Could they tour? No? No, no, they couldn't even play some of these songs. They never played lives, so they couldn't even play they were I went to the rehearsal space in Vegas and they were like I was like, play this song and they were like, we can't even play it. We don't even know how, like we don't even know how to play it. Um. I remember going to to Brendon the singer's house. He was seventeen or

eighteen seventeen. He was young, and I was supposed to talk to his parents, right, and I was supposed to tell him that, like, don't worry, it's gonna be all gonna be okay, Like what ye are we in there's maybe two thousand six, and I'm like sitting here, and I remember walking into the house and looking and on the on the table his family's more and on the table there was a book that said Santa and the christ Child. And I remember in my head being like,

I'm fucked. I was like, I am fucked. I have no I'm in so far over my head right now. I have no idea what to tell these people. And we figured it out. Okay, you sign these acts. How much did you have to do with the making and records and marketing them. I really care about the marketing because I think marketing, uh, when done right, can be part cohesive with the art, you know. I mean I think that you when when when when marketing is done well, it feels like it's all part of the same thing.

Like it feels like you're like, oh my god, this is like, uh, it doesn't it doesn't. It's not jarring because it feels like you're part of it. When marketing is done poorly, it is like the worst thing on the planet, and it feels like you're like, well, why are they doing that? This doesn't you know, it doesn't feel barnament talking marketing you're you're not talking like in caps, You're talking more like a ven events in the big vision, and like what is the story we're trying to tell?

And like what can we do that's gonna be uh counterintuitive? And what can we do that like no one else is doing uh at the time. Um yeah, And I think that, like my goal with the bands has always been to a like the thing the best thing I learned from John was to magnify people's vision and like and then to tell people to try and tell people like you can make any decisions that you want to make, because this is your journey and it's gonna be different

than my journey. But like if you go down and close this door or open this door, these doors over here will close probably. And my it's been my experience that like right now you think that like the only thing that matters is through this door, but like all these doors that are like way further ahead in the

journey will be closed because of this decision. And like it's I think that trying to be someone's coach and big brother and and cheerleader has been like the most important part of that and like nurturing that and making hoping that people aren't going to make the like big mistakes. Okay if this late data you signing bands, oh yeah, yeah,

I mean I'm trying to. I mean it's different now because like okay, so when we were signing those bands at the time, you know, there's no major labels cared about any of it, and um, social media wasn't what it is like the people that were on social media. It's just not like now it's like every people like

that's their jobs, you know or whatever. I think that like between like when us are the label and crush and the team is working really well together, we're very very good at taking somebody from zero to eighty thousand units or whatever you want to to determine the units by. I think major labels are really good, like when you need to pour gas on that and you need terrestrial

radio or whatever. But like I don't think that I think that they are particularly not suited for going zero to eighty tho and and I think that now because streaming is what it is and it's more about having bandwidth than anything else. That like you sign everything because it's like it doesn't cost you any money and like you're getting paid based on the amount of you know, the pie you're selling or the amount of pie people are listening to, you know, And so people are being

signed now like before. Like so our biggest problem at the time was that, like people were in bad management situations, and that like sometimes was like a really made it difficult, you know what I mean, Like when you were signed in you're signed to a bad manager and the manager wanted to do just had like bad ideas and you were in a bad deal and there's no way you were ever gonna make money. That was tough. Now, I mean, major labels just signed bands and artists way smaller than

I think they would and should. So what's the last band you signed? We signed this kid? Uh, nothing nowhere. Um he's the first of the sound cloud rappers, I guess to really go into the you know, I did that deal with um Fuel by Ramen in Atlantic. Uh and and he's like the first of the SoundCloud rappers too at the time to a bigger deal. And Okay, so at this point, you also had a storefront where you sold ship that's dormant at this point. It is. Yeah, yeah,

that was in Chicago. It just was super expensive and didn't really make a lot of money. But it was a fun clubhouse to hang out and okay, and then but also online you were selling stuff too. Yeah, but you're still doing that. Yeah, yeah I do. I do, like a jewelry clothing line online. Yeah, but didn't you have a deal with one of the major uh, with another company to sell your stuff in their store? Oh yeah, maybe I haven't done a couple of those deals the time.

I guess you know you're not smiling. No, I'm I think that any of these things any I've learned a lot in the ways that, Like, so we did a bar for a long time. So we did a bar where we had one in New York, we had one in l A, we had one in Chicago, wan in Barcelona, and basically it was like we started this bar because we would go to clubs and they would like let me and the band in, but they wouldn't let any of our other like goofy friends in, and we were like,

we just want to go somewhere to hang out. Um. But you learn a lot about like how much you want to manage things and how like whether you want to be deciding every night, like you need something happening every night in a bar and you want to if you want to be micro managing that and if you're not gonna be micro managing it is like finding a

partner that understands the markets. And I think that that's the same thing as like if you do a licensing deal or if you do uh clothing, and you know, like more and more I meet you know, aspiring um musicians who want to do all these different things, which is cool, Like a lot of them are really cool and a lot of them are really big already you

know or whatever. UM, But I think you have to be you gotta be careful like who your partners are, you know, I mean, I think you have to work with people that you know are going to be honest with you. And I don't know, like I mean, I've never had a um a written contract with crush I think, you know, I remember like j D told me, like I don't I don't ever want to be in court

uh with somebody that I work with. And and that's like the thing that makes the most sense to me is that, like you have to find partners that like where you understand each other and you understand each other's strengths and weaknesses and you try to fill in those cracks. So how did the bar end? Oh man? So the bar, so, the one that we had in New York was basically like this tiny, tiny, tiny bar in in Alphabet City and it was impossible going to drink when it was filled,

and we had great karaoke there. But basically they would send like, uh, a twenty year old undercover police officer like one year and would you know, like it's so hard listen, I'm not alreading at the door, but like obviously like the tabloid headline, it's like that I am, you know, but like a thirty thousand dollar ticket can put you out of business when you're a bar that small,

you know what I mean? So did you wait? It never became my bar until it was like in in the tabloid headline when it was like served to an underage cop, it was my bar, but like otherwise it wasn't okay. So what do you think of the tabloids and uh and social media discussion today? Um, I mean, I think the people are able to use social media in a way that, uh, you're able to respond to things that are you know, like you're able to like like I follow Kim Kardashian and she's able to respond

and be like that's not true. This is true, Like this is actually what happened, you know, like Kanye didn't fall off a horse at Sunday Service. That's not real or whatever. You know, like in a way that I guess you couldn't have before. Um, And I think that, like it's interesting because there's like a whole lot of people. It's just like again there's like the cow as. I'm so big between like the people who are like living old like mystery and people who are like like the

new age who film everything. You know, there's just like a big divide between them, you know what I mean, that's clearly like a generational divide. You know, I lived next to I used to live next to YouTuber's. Um. They were the nicest people that I think that I've ever had as neighbors. But like you would go, you go to their house and they film like absolutely everything, you know, right, Well, you know, most YouTubers burned out because they gotta to create that content satiate their audience

on a regular basis. But you were tabloid fodder when you were married to Ashley Simpson. So how did what was that experience, Like, Um, it's very difficult to It's I think it's really hard to navigate life when there's constantly headlines of people being like you're doing this, you're doing that, You're not doing that, you know what I mean. Like, I think it's until you realize that, like you just want to you're just gonna be who you are, you

know what I mean. Like, and it doesn't really matter if people take pictures of you, like picking your nose or whatever. It is, like you just have to Once you come to terms with that, then I think it's

all right. It's interesting, Like I listened to um Leonardo and and I don't I'm not close enough with him to call Leo, I think, but uh and and Brad Pitt talking and they were just talking about how like he was talking about how like you know, his friends always find like you know, like try to find ways to game the thing where they'll have they'll he'll they'll say, like you put on I'll put on your hat and I'll put on the sunglass and I'll walk out, you

know or whatever, and he's like it just never works, and it's like it it doesn't, you know what I mean. Like I think that like, uh, that relentless interest in what entertainers or whoever do, like you know, like is like like I had a guy yesterday who asked me, like, what my opinion on like the Royal is leaving? And I was like, I haven't even really like ever thought of I don't know why anybody would want my opinion because I just like have never even really never for

you to say something outrageous. I'm sure you know what I mean. Um, it's just it's yeah, it's it's it's super super super bizarre. Like it doesn't it feels like you're in a simulation or something like that, you know what I mean, Like it doesn't feel real life. Okay, So at this late stage, you've achieved so much, but is there a dream beyond this? Man, there's always dreams. There's like you know, I remember our band, Uh, this is a dream, an unachieved dream that I don't think

we can't that I don't think we can achieve. But it was this is the way that I think in our band things is that I remember being late at night and I was like, I want to be the first band to play on every continent, all five continents, emailed to my manager. He goes, it's great, there's seven continents, but like, actually it's crazy. Uh and um, so we

went and we took uh. We went and played in Chile, and then we took a trip to the southernmost point of Chile, which is called Punta Arenas, and we basically stayed in this town, um, waiting to fly to Antarctica, and like we were taking a C one thirty or something to Antarctica, but it was the runway was never clear because we came at the very last time you could really fly to Antarctica, and we were in this town, in this hotel, and like the last interesting thing that

had kind of happened there was like sheep or something. So we were like we were like the Beatles. Our hotel was surrounded with people like freaking out, and how many people lived there at that time. I think we had the whole town outside of us, you know what I mean. Like it was actually it was just it was big because there was nothing else, you know what

I mean. Um, And we didn't end up we didn't end up being able to make the we didn't end up actually being able to ever fly to to Antarctica and we never were the first man, I think Metallica ended up doing Ittallica did go to Antic, so they did that. They were know but like I think to me, things like that are are interesting, like the playing places that we've never been and uh, like that's what's interesting.

And like being and learning from the cultures and being able to like infuse that back into the music and like that's what's interesting. Those are like the like I mean the stadium tour um, like these things are all like okay, But you're a multifaceted guy. Dude, what do you see yourself? You see yourself as a bass player, a lyric writer, member of the band, uh A and R guy, how do you see yourself? What's the most important thing to you? Oh, it's my the most important

thing to me, um, besides my family. Um. You know. I I always talked to my manager J D H and I think that you know, we talked about like how his book or my book would be titled like My Proximity to Greatness, And it's like I just really like being around people and like pouring the gasoline on their thing and like seeing their thing happen and be

a part of it. You know what I mean, and especially when it's like something that nobody ever thought was gonna happen, you know what I mean, or like it came out of nowhere, and that's like the most exciting to me. And like seeing like you know, Brendan you know, backflipping with like Taylor Swift on a you know, like

I'm like, oh my god, like is this happening? Like this kid was like in you know, like I was looking at Santa and the christ Child at his house like thinking like oh my god, like what am I doing? You know? I mean, like so those that's for sure the most exciting thing to me is like the rooting for the underdog when the underdog like gets a hidden you know. I mean, like that's by far the most interesting. Okay, you pretty much have access to anything. Your name big

enough opens every door or not. Oh no, I don't think so. I think that like so like man, it's so funny because I think the access keeps changing as you go up, you know what I mean, Like we play you know, uh uh President Obama's inaugural ball and and oh book that I mean, I guess it probably went through c A, you know what I mean, that

he has seven ball. The the president has seven balls, and there was a youth ball and at the youth ball, I guess they probably I don't know, I don't know what the algorithm is, but they got us Usher and Kanye okay uh and you know, like we were we were at the We were there and they were like, there's all kinds of things. They were like, we put a carpet over the Presidential seal because nobody steps on the seal, you know what I mean at all? Okay, And I was like, this blows my mind, you know

what I mean. There's all these things, you know whatever. And we were standing there and then you know, President Obamas did there standing on the seal and I was like, well, I guess, like you know what I mean, like there's a little yeah, so there's like levels of all of it, you know what I mean. And they were kind of like they were like when Potus is in the building, they were like, if your base brakes, if your techniques

to run out, don't run out. They're like, that's not you are a target if that happens, you know, I mean like and it was like, oh, so there's like these points of access that are beyond all of it, you know what I mean. Okay, Well, that's President United States. Especially now in the era of internet cacophony, we have Trump. Everybody knows and everybody else is trying to get in.

But if you wanted to reach Obama, could you okay, anybody in the entertainment business your name opened the door anywhere? I mean, is there anywhere that you can't go or whatever? Or you'd have to use your connections? Oh that I

don't have to use my connections. Maybe there's people that like in my phone that I like, Yeah, I have Drake in my phone as a number as a name to make sure that if I'm overserved at a restaurant that I don't accidentally or not accidentally text him and say, like, dude, you're the best fucking lyricist of all time, because I'm like, I don't want to be that guy, you know what

I mean? Okay, So who are you? The type of guy who hangs with famous people, the people that I think are famous, like that that are famous to me because I go, I'm telling you, I'm the guy that corrected all of my eighties toys and stuff like that. I want to meet, like Mr t and stuff. Like that, you know what I mean? Like, uh, I guess what I'm asking is certainly when you move up the ranks. Okay, forget what the hoi POLOI thinks. Oh you know, these

are famous people. These people it's like they say, why a rock stars very models because they have the same schedule. They get up at noon, go to bedefrood in the morning. They don't have regular commitments. So as you get closer and closer to the belly of the beast, you find other like minded people. So there are some people despite that, who are still singular, supposedly Fred Astaire, you know, droving the limo alone. Then there are other people, Laura's being

an example. He knows everybody and hangs with everybody. I love hanging with everybody. I love meeting. I do believe in meeting your heroes or people that you think are cool. And if you don't like them, then that's cool. You just learned something about them that doesn't change the music

or the movie to me. Uh. But I think that there are levels of access that are beyond you know what I mean, Like, I think that like, um, you can hang with these like so like you know, like you go to parties that there's like tech guys that like the billionaire tech guys or whatever, Like they're not giving me access to invest when they invest in companies. They're not calling me up and being like, listen, we got this group together, were the a group and like

this is what we get. Like I don't get that called like I don't have that access, and I don't know what that if that access comes with money, or if that access comes with success within tech or whatever it is. I mean, I I definitely can call any of those guys and probably go to like Katsuya with them, but it's like a different level of access to me,

you know what I mean? Like I don't when I go and pitch something, I don't even really want to pitch something to somebody who can't green I did in the room, like if you if the guy can't make the decision, I don't want to talk to right. It's not it's just not really were like this town is a town where everybody takes meetings about everything and nothing ever happens. Makes me crazy. Okay, So what do you think about the music today? The like, what do I

think about how it sounds? Or No, we're in an era. I mean this brings this goes into the other element that I referenced earlier. One if you go to streaming Spotify top fifty, generally speaking all hip hop, a little pop okay, And even though there are outlets for other sounds, they have a fraction of the mind share, and we can also say a fraction of the plays. But it gets so complicated that break there. Then in addition, many people, uh you reference this a little bit earlier, they're really

interested in becoming a brand. The music is just a vehicle to sell ship, become famous, etcetera, so irrelevant of the music itself. What do you think about that? I mean, I think that it's all of these things have always existed, whether it's people who put billboards up of themselves or their movies or whatever. It's just now we have like more of a window into these people actually doing it

in real time. And we've seen people who found success doing that, you know, or doing quote unquote nothing, you know what I mean, Like we've seen it, so you know that it's attainable. So I think people think that they can they can do it as well. I mean, it does feel like at some point some of that bubble will burst and people will be known for some of their talents. Um more so, and I think that

the people listen. I think that, like whatever it is, whatever reality show it is, and I like all this stuff. I watch all this stuff. But whatever reality show it is, or whatever tech game it is, or whatever thing it is, like no one when you get your heartbroken, you don't go and go like, well, thank god I opened that app because I always you know, like that helped me.

Or like you have the best day of your life, You're still watching films and listening to songs, and you know what I mean, Like those are the things that I think that, like you set your life by, like these big moments in your life by um, I think that there's room for all of it. I do think we live in the hip hop world. I mean, I think you're crazy if you don't think that. Um. I go to my kids school and every kid is trying to be Kanye Fresh, you know what I mean, And

I see see that happening in real time. I think that there's the pie is super super super big, So there's room for really all of it, you know. I mean, like I think that, but it's very hard to get noticed. Yes, so getting noticed now. This is the thing that I think with getting noticed now is that you have to be unashamed. I had these kids come up to me in a parking lot, uh the other day in Van Nuys at the Van Nuys Laser tag and they come up to me in the parking lot and they were like,

listen to this thing. I listened to it. I liked it, and we ended up having to talk. And I think you have to be you have to be cool with doing that, you know what I mean, Like you have to go out to people and like get them to notice you. Um. But I also think that it's super super important to be true to who you are. Like chasing just doesn't work. Okay, let's assume they give the tape to you, the CD that whatever, the file, and you think it's good. You and me both know there's

an occasional thing you here we go. This is stratospheric. I heard it once. This is gonna go. It's just about assembling the team. But I listened to like x MU on the satellite or I'll go through playlist on Spotify, and I say, well, that's pretty good. But unless someone puts some gasoline on it. Chances I could be the only person who heard it. So let's just assume you have a team together, okay, and you're uh, forget hip hop, it's a world done to itself, another kind of music.

How do you set about getting yourself noticed by a label or by the world at world at law. I think you have to you have to do. You have to be making great music. You have to make great songs. And I think that still great songs can stand on their own. Like you look, and if you don't have great songs, then I don't know, it's a different story. But like if you look at a band like Fun, uh or you you know, like there's these bands that come along and you're like, it's great, you know, I

mean it's for whatever reason, like it's great. It feels like a different era, but it feels kind of like this era at the same time. Um, and I don't and I don't. If you don't have greatness, then there's gonna be And and besides the greatness, there's so much of Like is that you have to be ready to swing the bat when you step up to the plate, Like when you get a chance to step out to

the plate, there's deliver. Yeah, there's so many people that like they're waiting for their chance, waiting for the chance. They get their chance, and they don't do it, you know what I mean, Like you can don't do it because they funk up, or they're scared, or they they second guess themselves and or they're so nervous about like their friends are like that's selling out, and so they do the wrong you know. Like there's so many versions of it, you know that, And I feel like I've

seen so many versions of it. Um. The truth is it's super hard, Like it's more democratic than ever because everybody can make music and there's so much out there. It's so hard, Like how does music last anymore? How did things stay? You know what I mean? How did things? They have to be either really great or really terrible to say, and even if they're really terrible, they kind

of go away, you know what I mean. To stay, it has to be so great and it has to the Other thing is even the most the biggest people on the chart, fewer people know them than ever before. Yes, it's harder to get mind here at large and say unless you're literally president something else which is well publicized. I'm gonna ask you about it. Supposedly you're bipolar. Is

that true. Yeah, I was. Yeah, I was diagnosed years ago. Um. Yeah, and it's something that like for a long time, I tried to self medicate, um, and that didn't really work out that well, you know what I mean. Like I think I went into the I think that I went into the idea that like I didn't need talk therapy and I could just figure it out on my own. I could use either alcohol or pills and I could kind of figure it out, you know, when I was on tour and I didn't want to like suppress the

creativity and that kind of thing. Um. But I think since having kids, I kind of wanted to be I want what I wanted to be present, and I wanted to, um, be able to like kid around and not be kind of ruled by my moods and you know, and and and at the same time also be like it's okay for you to like feel not great, you know, I mean, like it's okay, any of this stuff is okay. It's

all um. And so I mean since then, I've found ways to have like you know, like to to do therapy and to talk and to know that like, just because you're feeling better, it's not gonna like stifle your creativity that kind of thing. What is the number one thing or two things you learned in therapy? The therapy never ends really that you're tell my girlfriends, yeah, that you're never cured, you know, like you just it's not

you know what I mean? Um? And I think that the other thing that I learned, um, but it's harder to apply, is that you've got to be kind to yourself.

It's it's hard to be I think that. Give me an example, being mean to yourself, being too hard on yourself, whether you're doing like little like whether it's like little things as far as like when you're playing a sport or something and you're like I suck and like I won't be good, or like my you know, my band's not signed or whatever it is, you know, like all the you know, like I think that people are not particularly kind to themselves because we live in a world

where you we live in a really fake world, you know what I mean, Like where people think that everybody else's life is awesome and you feel super fomo about everything and it's not real, you know what I mean, Like it's like it's not real, I promise, Like all these people, everybody in my phone and every anybody, like all these people have like bad days and I do

really respect that. Like people like kid Cutty and and Kanye and whoever, like jay Z like have spoken you know, like it's aside from the really young rappers have like spoken out and talked about like the the idea that like everybody kind of has, like this mental health is something that everybody deals with because I think that's it's really important and we can still live like these aspirational lives.

But like there's no like if you're not whole before you go into it, it's not gonna fill the whole, you know what I mean, Like it's not gonna there's not like a whole theory about that that a lot of you know, going back to the pre social media era, you have a lot of guys who were not who are socially awkward, and they felt if they wrote hit songs, their lives would work. And when they found out it

didn't make their lives work, they could write anymore. It's for sure, I mean, and for sure it doesn't make you It doesn't like you're it's like there's a you know, I'm like a I'm like a total movie geek, you

know whatever, more than anything. And uh, you know, like there's a moment in Empire strikes Back where like looks like going in this like cave of darkness or whatever, and he's like, don't my lightsaber and you know, just like you only bring what you you take in with you, you know, I mean, you don't need it basically, and he brings it in anyway and then fights a version of himself spoiler whatever. But it's true in life, you

know what I mean. Like it's like there's none of these like when you come out the other side, like you'll have different experiences. But I don't think you like it doesn't it doesn't feel the whole Like you gotta figure that out on your own, you know what I mean. And do you take medication now? I don't take medication now, but I do a lot of therapy. Okay, someone who does a lot of therapy themselves. How much therapy is that? Uh? Probably twice a week? Okay? How long with the same person?

Five years? No? Four years now? Maybe? And does your wife go to she does not? No, no, no, she she is probably the of the more level people that I don't know whatever. People are on their own, but there was sometimes you're interacting in a relationship and you've gained these insights and therapy. Are you ever frustrated that your wife doesn't have the same insights? Um? I mean,

I think in arguments you get frustrated about everything. But I think that there's like a danger in like being like I've I've read this, or I learned that you can't say that we know, but I'm interacting forget significant others, and you see people acting that a certain way and go, holy sh it. If they had a little therapy, they'd never act that way and it would work out better

for them. I think I see stuff where people are freaking out about the wrong thing all the time, Like, um, like you'll be people will be like like mad, they're broke because they spend all their money on the shoes, but like they want the people to think they live in the bowler house, but they're spending the money on the shoes, so they're never gonna get to the bowler house. And like I'm always like, I mean that's just like

one specific thing. It like sometimes it feels like if you work through things in therapy, you can see like the bigger picture for yourself, you know what I mean, Um, yeah, because I mean it can be otherwise it's like super frustrating and it feels like you're going through life and you don't like you don't see like it's you're in the matrix, you know, and there's other people who are like seeing all the numbers and you're just not seeing it. And I've definitely felt like I've been on both sides

of that. Okay, Pete, this is being fantastic, has been fantastic. Thanks so much for sitting here telling me all. Your story's being so opens. Okay, until next time. This is Bob left Us