Pete Tong

about that. Yeah, basically, it's um It's started by me getting invited to curate a prom The Proms are a series of very famous season of classical concerts that have been running in the UK for well over a hundred years at the Royal Albert Hall, and they wanted to do something a bit more contemporary. They were worried about their audience kind of getting older and older and older, and they wanted to kind of engage with the younger demographics.

So they reached out to BBC Radio One, where obvious I've obviously been forever, and they said, you know, how about you guys curating you know, coming up with an idea that might work as a classical concert. So they asked me as a bit of a kind of veteran broadcaster there, and it happened to be an anniversary of of me taking Radio One down to a b through. It was like the twentieth anniversary, I think, in so we came up with this idea of um, you know, curate,

you know, putting together a seventy minutes show. That was the slot we were given. UM. And I thought, because I've been there but not exactly that exact time here, I thought the proms were outside of the problems inside or the proms are predominantly inside the Royal Album Hall. And they happened over the course of a month actually, and it's pretty much every night, two shows a night, and they might have done some think standalone things outside.

So anyway, I've never done anything like this before. This was definitely outside my skill set. UM. But I was introduced to Jules Buckley, who was a kind of contemporary UM you know, UM orchestrator and conductor, and he worked hand in hand with a with a kind of forward thinking you know symphony orchestra called the Heritage Orchestra, and they'd work with like the likes of the Basement Jackson

Goldie UM, someone that I was quite close to. So you know, we we you know, we had this blind date on the phone and we talked about the idea and I I kind of got into it with him how how it would work, and then I this, just how long ago this was. This was January of the year we did it, and we had six months to plan it. And I basically thought, you know, why don't we play a minute of each one of like all the greatest records of all time and you know, dance

records and the Betha classics. And he said that would take me like five years to to not take for the sixty five players in the orchestra. So we cut it. I cut it down to like twenty tracks. I mixed it together in my studio and I gave it to him and he started to, um, basically take these tracks from the original form and then work out how an

orchestra would play them, and um. The interesting thing was what was quite groundbreaking is I was able to get him to mix tracks together, so we were going to play everything live on stage, nothing on tape. Nothing. He wasn't following any records I was playing or anything like that. But we were able to do these segments, like fifteen minutes segments where we worked through like five tunes, but it would be seamless, and even with tempo changes and

everything like that. So we did this show on the thirty first of July, I think it was twenty nine, did July UM at the Royal Albert Hall. It was an appointment. It was a one off thing that we were going to do. But within about halfway through the first song, five thousand people in the Royal Albert Hall stood up started going crazy clapping and we looked around at each other, went some some magics going on here. So we got to end at the show, went backstage.

It was like, oh my god, what just happened there because literally the entire audience didn't sit down for seventy minutes. They just went mad, and we had we had kind of down tempo, chill out moments in there as well, but they still stood up. Just to be clear, if you only had seventeen minutes seventy seventy, excuse me. So we got backstage and was like, oh my god, you know, like this was amazing. We've got to do it again.

But everything in terms of the proms and the BBC, it was all kind of funded and underwritten, so it was like no nobody really ever got a bill um. But so it took a while to plan how to take this show out on the road and it took

about eighteen months UM. But we announced some shows the following March and we sold them out in a day and we had one oh two on sale and we worked out there as people don't know that's essentially yes, it's like it's like the big arenas here, like Staples Center or something like that, and we worked out there. If we sold the lower bowl, we didn't know, like eighteen months later what the demand would be like. UM,

but we sold it out. We sold the whole place out in a day, and then we were like, oh my god, we got to do another one, but I think Justin Bieber was playing the next day and like someone else the day before, so we couldn't get a string of dates. But we ended up at the end of sixteen with a with a show in Birmingham the O two and then one match to all all arenas,

sold them all out. UM made a record that year UM basically going back in the student into the Happy Road studios actually, which was amazing, and we recorded the orchestra. We recorded that set with you know, we redid it, UM did it as a proper record. UM. The album came out went to number one went gold on the pop chart. It was so we were off to an amazing start and here we are UM at the end of we just did nine arena shows in the UK,

including to two sold out oh two. So it's um, it's it's me up on stage with with sixty five incredible musicians and Jules Buckley playing a selection of you know, electronic music, dance music that spans back years UM. And for me, it adds. It was it was really about adding gravitas to these compositions. I think in the in the annals of musical history, you know, dance music producers, DJs, we have a bit of a chip on our shoulder because we're not taken seriously like the Rock and Roll

Hall of Fame and all that stuff. MS and and it to me it was like, well, this music that was made in Chicago, New York, Detroit, you know, in Berlin, in London, all all over the world, you know wherever, um we can show that you know this one finger wizardry that was done by these Detroit guys back in the late eighties where they had a button on one of the early Roland keyboards that says strings and they played you know this incredible string part that we to

actually be able to go and do it with a you know, a massive orchestra. Um. It just lifted people and I think that's that was the magic of it. Okay, So since there are no nothing on a hard drive, we used to see tea what do you actually do

on stage? So basically um on the light. On the live performance side, I'm I'm actually also playing along with him, so you'll see me up there with with a bunch of turntables and sheen and some drum pads and basically there there are elements like weighty kind of wishes and bangs and electronica in a lot of these productions that

an orchestra can't play. So I'm often spinning in a like a stem um of of some electronics that actually the that they can't provide that kind of adds euphor I'm adding kind of euphoria, and occasionally I'm adding um extra um percussion hits and stuff like that, and then yeah, a lot of clapping. Okay, So what's the press? And I'm kind of playing like the m M right right, what's the press been like? Because you know there's so much press in the UK and it can be vicious.

Now it's been it's been incredible. I mean I would say, um, touch would um, it's been great. It's it it's I tell you, I'll tell you what it is. It's it's it's it's experiential. It's it's the orchestra. Is there a back up? Is there? You know? Lee? Are there leasers? What are you doing? Yeah? So on the there's a two versions of the show, the A list version, which is the one we've just done through the arenas. Um,

we've built a pretty big production. It's it's it's the idea is we take people to a Betha for one night. You know, we either taken them back because they've got great memories of it, or we're taking them there for the first time because they've never been there. So, um, we've built, it's evolved over the five years and it's got a little bit more dense and layered as we've picked up material um and worked out what ideas work

and what ideas don't. So um, yeah, we what's going on up on screen on on screen um compliments what we're doing on stage. And as I said, not not this year, but the year before. It starts with a plane, you know, flying over the audience and we take you to a bether for one night. And we've we've had you know, departure boards up from the airport. We've done all sorts of tricks and and and the show climax is by this pretty special journey, um through the night

through a beether and then a bit and and dealt villa. Yeah, the classic shot in a bee the old town um rises up behind the orchestra and like it gives me goose bumps talking about it. But that's like the emotional like punch um. But we're always I'm always looking at I mean for the first you know here, I am like in my sixtieth year. I've been deejaying pretty much since I was fourteen years old, and um, you know, to be able to do this, I mean this, I

just didn't see this coming. You know, this was not written in the book. You know. I always had a day job to kind of compensate for my you know, the way my DJ was going. And so it's it's been fascinating so be able to be able to do this stuff on that scale. Um, I'm learning a lot

and it's a lot of fun. And you know, you see you you see the technology on stage that you know, Metallic could take out or you know you two or Coldplay or Kanye or someone um where as deviling and we I can, like a couple of years later after they've done it, I can kind of afford it, so we can get a little bit of that. So we're always like looking to push the envelope a bit in terms of every year as the as the show goes on, we we get a little bit more funding and we

can add another trick. Okay, so you are the driving business force. It's basically your show. Well it's it's it's my name at the top of the poster, but it's a collaborative effort. It's I'm actually I'm talking about the quick and I'm talking about the business end. I mean, does everybody else you know the orchestra, They basically show up when it's booked, But in terms of talking to an agent, manager, etcetera. Picking out dates, is that all

fall on your head pretty much? I mean, um, there there is a there is a little We formed the company as a partnership which is me and Jules Buckley and um Chris Wheeler, who's the principle of the Heritage Orchestra and my management company actually, so a lot of the everything else apart from the show tends to all

on me and my management um. And when it gets to actually doing the show then and all making making the records, it's very much me and jewels um and and yeah, yeah, the orchestra turn up to play at certain sessions. When it comes to actually doing the show, obviously the orchestra part increases because we couldn't do it without them. So and we have guests, you know, we

have a lot of guests come on. So we'll take guests, vocalists, We've had, I mean, we've had um everyone from you know, John like what I wanted to do because it's because it's just it appealed initially to the kind of relapsed raver. So it was it was quite that way if you were an eight, if you were eight in the eighties and you were going to like the clubs for the first time in the raves, you know, all through the kind of rise of the big clubs in the super

clubs in the nineties in the UK. You know, you the interesting thing is by two, you know, the late um, you never stopped loving the music. You you didn't really want to grow older, but you've got families, you've got jobs, you have got older. You don't want to go out till four in the morning anymore, but you do come and see peakes On and relive this this thing. Um so.

But I but being with my A and R head On, it was like, I've never really looked backwards and done celebratory greatest hits things, so I've always been trying to push the envelope forward. So for me it was very important. You know, we'll have classic artists back, but I wanted to have young contemporary artists performing these old songs. So from the get go we had John Newman, Um, we had Air Maginade hartnett Um, you know, but I have

had Candy Statin, I have had Seal. We just had Maxi Jazz from Faith Fus come out and join us performing his own song, which was kind of took the thing to a whole new level where you start having the original artists whose music we are playing then come back and perform with us. So um so it's a it's a mix, you know, okay some of this so but we had but you know, Becky Hills almost joint. You know, she's a massive kind of contemporary singer in

the UK and she's done every tour. Beverley Night is a veteran of you know who went on to be a big star in the theater. Actually she's she's come back and done it with us. But but then there's always be the young ones as well. So okay, so any shows booked for the future, well, the next UK tour is already on sale, so that's. Um, We've got one big date at the isle A White Festival next year talking about glaston Read that might or might not happen, and then what our arena run again, He's already on

sale for December. We did do it at the Hollywood Bowl here a few years ago. Um, it was very expensive thing to do. Um, and we haven't quite yet worked out the model of how to bring it back to America. That's challenge. But let's just say forgetting the economics, working out the below the line stuff. Just talking about the audience, do you think there is an arena audience other than in Los Angeles and New York for this show?

We're we're were were working on it now, I think, um, I my gut feels it's more like an installation that maybe it's a celebration of the American electronics story from the late nineties all the way through to two now, and maybe it's home is more like something like Vegas. That's having said that, you know, there is this um you know, like k CRW do at the Bowl, you know where they do that kind of it's funded by that kind of season ticket model where people bring their picnics.

I mean I got educated to this a couple of years ago that there is actually a circuit of those places like the Hollywood Bowl. You know. Mark Geiger was telling me, um that you can do that. You know, probably could do nine, ten, twelve of those around the country. So we're looking at that as well. Well. I guess what I'm asking is most people agree that this sound started in Detroit, but it is never once it was picked up by the UK and Europe, it is never

really faded. We're here, it's going up and down. So today, if you because you're a world wide guy, what is the level of the music in the varying territories? Um, well, I think it went from zero to a hundred over the course of these the you know from from the late eighties. Obviously in the the UK it peaked quickest.

It became mainstream, it moved the needle um in the charts, in the pop charts, it moved the needle in the major label business, and then it kind of started to kind of collapse in the two thousand's and the rest

of the world started to pick up on it. You know, the French got stronger, the Swedes got stronger, the Germans got stronger, and Low and Behold by coming into two you know, mid two thousand, five, six, seven eight e d M. You know, the roots of DUM kicked in the US and then the whole financial value moved over here. So you know that again in major labels had hits with Vichy and David Gettum Vegascot on board and paid money that was astronomical. It was bigger than any fee

anyone had ever seen before, anyone in the world. So we've gone through and that's peaked now but and and and Vegas is still there, but it's not all consuming like it was between two thousand and eight and two thousand and twelve thirteen. So UM, you know, only the strong survive now in Vegas, Like the biggest pop stars are the most current pop stars in the electronic world.

But the and but the other right, the the other rising value right now is um all the underground guys that kind of that became superstars in a Betha are now traveling around the world and they've got a slightly different model. They're not really having hits, um, but they are bringing huge value to their live shows from an experiential point of view, and especially on the V I

P and the table scene. So that's all moved from gathering around, you know, kind of David Getter to two starting to gather around like Tail of Us and Solomon and Black Coffee and people like that. So that's quite interesting. Um. But I think the general thing with my record company hat on and my agency hat on is that, um, it's it's actually on the rise again. It's actually the the the the economic value around electronic dance music is going back up again and on a global level, and

it's time for a new generation. And it's some it's pretty positive. Okay, So you're the major labels by the way back into dance music big time, you know, rightly or wrong. The the investment is flying back into dance music because for the for the first time now the obviously the streaming numbers are actually getting to a significant

level where you know, the pouts are bigger again. So I, you know, you know my history with Roger Ane's London Records f r R, I was, I was there at the beginning and where you know where we were having bidding wars in the nineties, you know, a hundred grand for this, two hundred ground for that. It went crazy and that, and you're seeing that again now in the last twelve to eighteen months that those numbers are back out.

There are again major labels are battling each other to get the rights to you know, the MEDUSA record or you know, okay originally from the UK, but you live in l A now, yeah, how long? Um, numerous reasons. One one, I already always had too many jobs and there was never a good time. You know, there's never a good time to emmigrade. I think when I was at London Records, UM, I had my first number one record in America because I had signed Shakespeare's sister. We

had a record called Stay Um. London Records US had opened guy called Peter Copkey and it's still run by Roger Rams, right, Roger was running the whole thing, but Copy was the head of the US and Osman was in the mix as well with him, and they were like, you know, you're you're the future of the label. Come. You know, now is the time to come to America and you've got a number one records. That would never be a better time. But I got onto Radio one.

I had my first child in so that kind of kai bosh that UM, and then I I got basically

my my I got remarried. My my second wife used to live in l A. UM so she always wanted to be American or that she's Brazilian, but she she was in that she lived in l A when I met her and UM, and then got deeper into this WMME relationship, and you know, the center WM at least back then was Los Angeles, and I thought, you know, with the d M blowing up in America, and it's like, if I was going to make the most of the opportunity, now was the time. So it was. We went through it.

We only I told my mom I was coming for a year. How many kids? How many kids do you have? I've got four and two step kids, so six between us, okay, and how many were the first wife family of the second wife. They're only two ways to only two lives, okay. So the first wife three kids, okay, So the first three three kids. In the second one you have one together and you have two step kids. So what you know if you had your first kid in What are your kids up to? They're all in music actually amazingly

and I never really pushed them into it. Um, they've kind of done it by their own designs. And my eldest, Joe um, goes by an name of Joe Hurts as an artist, didn't take my name, which I quite thinks quite cool. And he is kind of making futuristic kind of R and B soulful bit of electronic influence. Um, he's doing pretty well. He's got good Spotify numbers, good Apple numbers, and so he's he's doing that. He's writing,

producing for other people and being an artist himself. And he lives where he lives in London, and he is now here's the interesting. But he's managed by his sister who's a couple of years younger. So my daughter as a manager, and she she got an intern job at a sony label years ago and then just grew and grew and grew on her and another guy from the label ended up leaving and forming their own um label and management company and plugging company actually called Juice Box,

and they run events. So she's doing that. She DJs as well, and they've employed my younger he's twenty one, and now he's like running like training under her and doing loads of stuff as well. The three of them work together. That's quite And does everybody get along? Yeah? I mean the first wife said the first wave ever get remarried. No, that's okay. So uh, let's ask a general question for the uninformed. The uninformed looks at dance music and they hear all the different genres house, chill,

I could go on and on. Can you do your best to explain those different genres? Yeah, how she can dance to chill? You can chill to have about that? Bob okay, I go that. But there are obviously a mob where there's deep house, there's a million other genres and subjects I got. I was always a little bit um spiky about genres because they get they get mishandled, you know. So I don't know if it's if it's good,

it's good. If you like it, you like it. I don't know, so, I mean, I guess you have to, you know, label stuff, but I don't like the next question is going to be what's what's happening next? No? No, actually that was not going to be the next question. If anything, I was going to go backward, and I ultimately will, but I guess I will ask a question a different way. Amongst our fans, are fans into the different genres? Where do you find that certain people are

only into you know, drum and bass or chill or whatever. Um, drum and bass tends to be a more of a narrow thing. Um. Back in the day, you didn't used to um the drummer bassed crew were very locked into a certain thing. I mean, I I think things are changing now. I think um. I mean I come from time late eighties in the rave era and like going into the early nineties, we played a bit of everything and we're all our eyes all all the guys back then.

Eyes were opened by those trips, early trips to a Betha where we saw a guy called Alfredo play all you know, Chicago House, Detroit House, Italio House, German house and Techno, and then he'd play in excess you know, need you tonight. It fights six in the morning with the sun rising, and everyone you know, like off their

trolley and I was like, this is amazing. They used to play he'd played like the coolest most obscure underground record, and then he'd play Stockaching and Wortman's production of Mandy Smith, who was Bill Wyman's underage girlfriend. And we again it was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And Chris, you know, get another good example, you know, five underground records and then m Josephing Chris Rear. It's like and

that was the blair E spirit. So we and we all came back to London and Manchester back then, and we also opened these clubs and we started doing the same thing. You know, we get to the end of the night and played depeche Mode or Chris Rear and it would be ironic, but it was really cool. So I like, you know, and we used to play a bit of jungle, and we used to play a bit of everything. And then something happened where everyone's got in their lanes and if you ever stepped out of your lane,

you got smacked. Over the head. So, but I'd like to think now with a younger audience that have kind of grown up on Spotify and Apple streaming services, as they start to step into clubs for the first time because they're old enough and if they're curious to come that they are actually they're a little bit more all over the place because they've had because they didn't have to buy the records exactly. I'm more I'm more concerned

about when I was thinking coming up here. My pet subject really at the moment is like everyone's talking about monetization and music, and like, you know, especially in the electronic area, there's there's been a couple of great podcasts on Resident Advisor about, um, you know, the fact that the you know, these super these underground DJs or commercial DJs are getting you know, tens of thousands, some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars and pounds and euros to play,

but the music they're playing, the musicians whose music they're playing are getting nothing, you know. Um, And that's there's a real disparity there. Um. So that's that's a that's a big issue out there in the electronic world. But also and something that we're going to talk about big time at I MS this year here. But I think, um, the other thing for me is like, where is the future of the curators? You know, I come from you. My hero was John Peel. Um my my um my role.

I guess some you know, five plus years at Radio one has been as you know, that's been an amazing platform to be a curator. But in the world of streaming and where the streaming services are basically the curators and they seem to run popularity contest is where did where does a curator in the next decade find his voice, you know, to move the needles. There's so many questions and streaming and we can address us. Let's go back to the beginning. So you're in your sixtieth year, so

you're born in nineteen sixty. Where they grow up? Um, I grew up in Kent. I was born at the same hospital as Mick Jagger a few years later. Not yeah, a few years later, but he reckons we're related by the way. I finally bumped into him after all these years. Okay, so you're in Kent. How many kids in the family, just me and my brother, So it was too boys, um, and we grew up in a We were born in Dartford, which is a town where we grew up in a village in the countryside. Um, and we I went to

boarding school and I was super young. Um, my dad was busy, My mom was stressed. What did your father do for a living? He was a well in English, it's a funny name for it, called a turf accountant. But he was a bookie, so he was in the betting business. So he was have to ask because when I first encountered your name, I thought it was a stage name. But it's really your name, it's really my name tongue, and it's not I'm not My dad didn't run Chinese laundries. Would you have any idea where the

derivation is? Yeah, he he um. He did a search and he's passed away now, but he told me that it was actually it was all down to Saxon Anglo Saxon Viking blood and there was a lot of tongs in Scandinavia with like spelt like tongue or with a name on the end, and it wasn't really Chinese at all. So, um, with all these adverts you see now, like for DNA and like the family tree or should My wife said to me the other night we should do it again. I don't want to do it. I don't want to

find out that I'm gonna die. Never mind all the crazy relatives. But your brother is older or younger? Younger four years younger? And what is he up to now? He's he's in the UK still and he Um, he works for a cable company putting cables under the ocean, keeping us connected. Okay. And how close are you to him? Um? Not that close? I mean, but close because we've always come together, but it's not like we speak every day now okay. And does he ever ask you for money?

Personal question? Um? I can answer you because he hasn't. No, No, he has. And have you just given him money because you were successful? No? Okay? How about your kids? Your kids will sounding like they're doing. Are you the type who says, hey, they have to find their own way? Are you going to support them till they find the wrong way? Or how does that work? A bit of both. I think I've done a lot of learning in life, um. And I've done a lot of work on myself on that.

And I think you're going through divorces really really tough, and as the man who leaves the house. You know, Um, you're torn all over the place in terms of doing the right thing and the kind of guilt trip and then you know, what do you do when you're with them? You know, and you you kind of over you definitely overcompensate at the start. But we've got a really good balance now and there and they are growing ups now, so it's you know, okay, but are they still on

the pay roll? Um no, No, one of them actually actually does work for me a bit. So my oldest does actually great that they find the wrong way I stop. No, they don't know, they all, especially my daughter, Um, she's quite entrepreneurial. But my son actually does work for the BBC a year. He helps actually behind the scenes on my show in terms of some of the engineering and stuff like that. So so you go away to school what they call on the UK public school? How old

are you when you go super young? Like ridiculously was I was like seven or eight or something and I went to boarding school and I can't I kind of blanked out a lot of it. I have fond memories of some of it, and then apparently I was very unhappy. And how long did you stay there UM till I was old enough to get the train on my own. And then so I think till I was about thirteen. Well, then I was old enough to get I could there

was because it actually wasn't that far away. Some kids bored because you know, they board in Scotland because they live on the south coast. But I actually lived very closely, you know, twenty miles from the school, maybe not even that UM. So I was a weekend border so I would board during the week and go home at weekends most of the time. But I was so when I got to twelve or thirteen, I was I was old enough to do the train journey on my own. Until did you stay at that school? Yeah, all the way

through till um what they called a levels eighteen. Then I never went to UNI. I was straight into UM. You know, I was a pretty studious student until I was sixteen. I got all my exams, and then I was definitely a more distracted UM student in the last two years because my music thing was starting to happen. Okay, your father was a terrific account you were, I know, I like terrif ac count I've read before, but I wouldn't been able to pull out my reran. Were you

were aware of that? Yeah? I mean I was actually my best subject at school was maths. So he I would work in the back office of his bookmakers, which is all legal in the UK, well as long as I wasn't out front. Yeah, so I was being a bookie in the UK legal where you had you had tracked bookies and you had shot books. You have to have different licenses, so you could be a bookie at the track for the dogs or the horses. Um, and that was a certain type of license. And my dad

didn't do that. He didn't he didn't do it for horses. He did do it a little bit for dogs racing gray hounds, but um, I I would go so on the big race days like the Derby and the Grand National, um and the Choltenham Gold Club, I would often go in and work at the back office, probably when I was thirteen fourteen, and I'd have to you know, work out you know, someone bet fifty quid at five to four and I do the bet calculations. So really, well, how many people were working for him, I don't know,

five or six. Yeah, he had like three shops and but it put me off gambling forever for like the next question, it did because it was it did him in basically, I mean he was There was an era in the in um so we're talking about the late seventies where the independent bookmaker could still make a good living. But um, the the the chains or the conglomerates started to rise. So there was there was two big companies. One was called lab Brooks and the other one was

Joe Coral. And the fact that they had, you know, once you start having thirty shops, forty shops, a hundred shops in the UK, you could just offset your you know, you just balanced the box where it's really really hard for a guy with three shops to have a bad. Um. Grand National where the favorite one, you know, and it was always it was red There was his famous horse

called red Rum. And my mom will always and she's still alive, um and whenever it gets the Grand National Day and I call her from here and say what we're gonna it was it's the one time I'll still have a bet because I wanted to get my daughter into it just to see, just to show her what we used to do. And I rang her this year just before the race started and she's still you know, she's nine now, um, but she's still. I can't do that, you know. It's like it's that's that's what he brought

your dad to his knees, that bloody race. Okay, so he literally set the yards himself. I guess so. I mean I think there was some kind I don't know, I forgot now it worked. There was some kind of correlation with what was going on on the track because back then on TV you'd see the odds at the course and I think, you know, they it was literally people going around going, you know, has this horse got all its shoes on? Is this one got his tail on? You know? Is the jockey drunk? Is you know? Is

there information? You know that when we're not knowing? And that would that would how someone would go around and right the odds and then he would have to look at those odds that were on TV because it was before betfair or internet or anything like that, and he would, Um, I guess, yeah, he could. He could give an extra point or take a point away. Here they all do what he wanted to do. So how did he do it? In the end? It ended horribly. It was some he's

started having to bet. He was a gambler as well, so he would he would take a load of bets on and then have to kind of bet against the book to books, and it just it started to unravel. In the end, he was a very proud man and he sold he sold out to um two lab Brooks or Joke Corals, I think it was Labrook's, and then he went um. He never really recovered from that. Actually he went into he then him and my mom bought

a hotel and they went into the hotel business. Just one big, big, quite big hotel in the town Gravesend, and um, but the idea of serving other people and just he just got very depressed about it, and he was he was drinking too much. So okay, did he sell out whichever one of the two couples it was because he saw the future coming or because he'd lost so much Okay, but there was enough money to buy this hotel. Yeah yeah. And how long did they own

the hotel? Um? He he died in nineties three, so um we probably had another year like we were winding, had to wind it all up, so from from yeah, late seventies to four probably and other than him disliking it, was a good business. I think it was good for a while. And he's grand his father did it and it was so I think from the you know, after the Second World War there was probably twenty years where that was a very good business to be in. Yeah, okay,

So what exactly put you off gambling? It's just it's weird. I just there's not I could. I mean, I've worked in Vegas so often I've gotten it's just weird, you know, like people talk about addiction or like, you know, people always want to drink. It's just weird. It's it's not it's gambling to me. It's just like I don't it's like in my DNA that there's fear. There's somewhere I might.

I might. I'm quite curious about blackjack, and I might occasionally go and throw, you know, you know, throw something on a roulette table, just for a laugh, like I'm talking about like once every ten years. But I got no, I just don't have any. The only time I ever bet is when I go to football matches in the UK, and if I'm lucky enough to be invited to someone's box, they bring when you're having dinner, they bring around a sheet and you actually bet on the result. So I

actually do that because it's football and I'm mad. I'm mad about football. Um, but there's no I just don't know. It's just I think watching my dad obviously when from when I was very young at seeing what it did to him. Um, it's obviously just closed off that door. And what about alcohol and drugs, Um, well, yeah, I mean I've I've had periods of um of drinking not drinking. So I think I think everything in you know, moderation really Okay, So it's not that well I'm not sure.

It's not that you don't have an addictive personality. It's like gambling is the thing too itself. Push that aside. Okay. So if you are going to school and it's late seventies from the US perspective, this is pub rock, Graham Parker in the Room or whatever. Okay, wretch a little earlier, like ninety two. Okay, So when did you get into music? Very early age? I was My dad did get a lot of albums and single and um, so I just he was there was always records around the house and

I just became So he did get a lot. Yeah, he was into music, so he bought a lot of albums, and he had quite an eclectic taste. There would be the Beatles and the Stones, but there would be um, then there'd be the crooners like Dean Martin and Frank Snatcher. But then there'd be Santana and like more exotic kind of music, and like a lot of he'd buy like a lot of like African drumming albums and stuff like that.

So he was always had these mad gatefold sleeves. Um so I and I've still got some of them actually. So there was music always around. I was always banging things as a kid apparently, and then um, you know, I had my piano lessons and stuff like that, but rum drums is what I settled on. Okay, So how long did you play the piano? Well, on and off a few years, but but it never really stuck with which I gratefully greatly with regret lessons. How long did

you take drum lessons or played drums? Probably from eleven or twelve till till DJing really kicked in, which was about fourteen fifteen. So I had a drum kit, a Ludwig drum kit that you got me, and I used to sit in our front room with the headphones on, trying to play, trying to follow along with Keith Moon and John Bonham. Okay, did you ever the first thing I could ever play when we formed a school band and we used to do Smoke in the Water by Deep Purple and we could do hold your Head Up

by Argent. Of course, Um, I could play. I could play almost every instrument on that song, and so yeah, it was it was fun times. And we used to we did some school concerts and we did a like village hall concert and but one day I saw a DJ at a school disco for the first time with two belt drive turntables a little old at the time. This is like, okay, so that's nineteen seventy five. Okay, that was not happening in the US and the early seventies we had a DJ. Well, this was not cool.

This was like wedding. So we had to turn tables just so he didn't have to worry about a break or was he mixing the two together and I'm mixing it? Just just two turntables and like what looked like a house, you know, a lampphraids taken from his house, and um, yeah, it was a microphone. He was like, now and now this is number two in the charts. It's like, you know, and this was like a school dance. Was your school

boys only or girls too? It was boys only at that stage, and just when I left in the sixth form they started to introduce girls finally. So um, this would have been just in the in the middle school that what we called the O level years the GCSC is so um, I can't remember exactly. Okay, so you see the guy with the two belt driven turn tables, and then I just thought, well, my dad's got loads of records. This makes a much better noise than I'm making with my band. I see much more in control

with that. So firstly it was me and a friend of mine and my school friend. So we did a bit of a double act of like what what what you decide you're going to do it? There's no rehearsal because you think you know everything kind of yeah yeah, So then when do you say, I'm gonna go out and get gigs? Well, then I took over the school this go so I can't remember. We had one at the end of every term. So what do you said?

It said hiring somebody you know? Volunteer yourself, because I think there was a student's union school something like are you that type of person? Entrepreneurial like that. I would never have used that word at the time, but I clearly was more than I give myself credit for so. And back then being a DJ meant having the gear, so like you could be a DJ if you had the gear. So it was all about getting the gear.

So with a bit of money that my dad gave me and like scrapping together stuff, I managed to get. You know, you get the two speakers, you get an amplifier, you get the turn tables and it and it went from there and my my formative years as a DJ was all about being a mobile DJ, because which meant you had the gear. And then I had I had

the transit van quite early. But you said it was a duo, a guy called Nigel Burns, and I lost track with him thirty four years ago, but he at the beginning there was two of us, and I can't remember quite why, but it's probably to do with the fact that he probably put some money and got one of the speakers and I got the other one, and we had we had the boxes like with the flashing three lights and it was total you know, classic kind of cliche stuff. Um and it was you know school

dis Guy's where we play t Rex. But then I'd learned I, you know, play funkadelic, you know one colation under a groove or get up, you know Casey and a Sunshine Band disco text and the sex Alex James Brown, and I realized that these this music made the dance for move more than me playing Mark bolan Um and I kind of that's where my formative my taste starts to come together. There's a fifteen sixteen year old that

really sould music was my thing. Um. And I've spent a lot of time around Gravesend, even though we lived

in this village. A few miles outside there was a record shopping grays And called Chris's Records, and I got myself a weekend job there and I just loved the idea of like, you know, filing the records away in plastic covers, like obviously the covers in the shop were empty, and then you'd take them to there and they and this this shop had quite unlike the unlike the US, the records were not shrink wrapped, no, no, everything was like it was in self. It was in an open

plastic cover. But but this because this this town I grew up around had a strong West Indian community, an Indian community and England you know white community, and they like reggae and they like soul, and a lot of the kids were going up to London to like early

kind of underground from London. It was it was an hour on the train miles outside London on the Thames South Thames coast um and so I started hanging around with a load of pop at like music like like music that wasn't the music that was top forty UM. And back then growing up even then, there was a lot of specialist radios, state programs. On Radio one UM, there was a very eccentric American guy called Roscoe Emperor

Roscoe w n Work. So he used to play you know, white boys soul records that the first time I've heard anything like the average white band or anything like that. And then there was the guy called Tony Prince who was on Radio Luxembourg. And then eventually Robbie Vincent and Greg was they were my you know, and it was like it was like the window to another world hearing this music and everything was very rare and like you

have to really hunt around. Yeah, complete opposite, and I'd have to go up you know, I've would send people up to London. I'd I'd start going to London on the train and going into Soho or to Holburn and then finding these records in these record stores, and then you have to build your relationship with the person behind the counter because there'd only be five copies and if you weren't cool enough, you weren't going to get one of the five copies. So it's all this thing of

searching music. And then when I get it back home and i'd play it in Kent, you know, around these shows that I started doing, I'd cover up the labels so that other people couldn't steal it off me or find out what it was. So it was all very um it was. It was cool. Okay. So you're in what we would call high school. How many nights a

week or how many nights a month are you're working? Um, well, once it left school eighteen before you left school, because you did at school, it wasn't I mean, how you know, like once I can't even remember, like once or twice a month probably and we did did yeah, okay, and then no I did what I was doing mobile, No, I was getting hired to do weddings and stuff like that. And okay, so you're you're making decent money. I'll start making decent money. What are you quickly? What do your

parents say about you're not going to university? Initially they were, Um, there was a little bit of resistance, and initially they were pushing me, but um, they saw it was my passion and didn't really stand in my way. I think they kept thinking it would wear itself out and just be careful that you don't get too old and it's too late that if you want to go to university

or you want to do this stuff. But my dad didn't really go to UNI, um and my mom didn't go to UNI, so it wasn't a UNI tradition in our family. So that probably helped. Okay, some things started to happen quite quickly, but I always, um, you know DJ's didn't no one dj for a living back then. This is the big point to make. So you even you know, mobile DJs had day jobs. You know club DJs, the early ones that I first heard about, they had

day jobs. Um, unless you were literally the breakfast show DJ on the BBC or Radio one or something like that, which I didn't ever want to be. I'd worked out quite early on that I didn't want to play other people's music choices. If I was going to be on the radio, I wanted to play what I wanted to play. Um, So I got day job. So nine nine, Um, what

was your day job? I joined a music magazine called Blues and Soul, which was the mixed you know, the dance magazine of the day, although it was Could you make any money working from Yeah, I got a salary, I got a car. Really yeah, it had so as you know, and I and I I don't know if you remember in the UK, they used to be a Pauli Yates was a writer for Record Mirror and she was the first one that ever wrote about like pop culture, stroke gossip. So I I was obsessed by what she wrote,

and I thought, I want to write something. I want to write about the scene and the gossip in a cool way and the music, and so that was what I thought my job was going to be at Blues and Soul magazine. The day I got there, the publisher said to me, yeah, that's just that's just laughing. You know, your real job, you're gonna have to go and sell advertary. So if you want to do that, you can do that. But you've got to go and sell some ads. So they gave me a car to go around and sell advertising.

So I would have to go around all the record shops, you know, back in the day. So the record shop ads, they used to list a hundred titles, um, and then you put them in the back of the magazine with a hundred titles mail order, you know. Um. And with the reggae shops, it got a bit tricky because if you made a spelling mistake, they try and not pay your bill. So you know, I had guns pulled on me and like all sorts of things back in the day. So um, but it was it was it was rites

of passage. It was a massive experience and it was I started to meet more people in the industry because I was writing this column. So it's kind of the making of me working at Blues and Soul Made and you're living were at the time. I was commuting from Kent into London. Um. I know, I actually got a house really young as well. I got I managed through bits of money from DJing. Houses were super cheap back then. My first house was I got mortgage obviously, but it

was like twenty grand or something. I got like three bedroom terraced house. Yeah. Boy, my godmother was quite healthy and she left me a bit of money. And you're talking about like even if you had five grand, you could get because it on a proper house. It was opposite a cemetery, but it was actually quite cool. And so how long you would I left the house. So so the magazine I was three, And then the record companies were starting to kind of, you know, get more

and more interested in dance music. And Roger Rames was working at what was called Phonogram, and there was a guy called Tracy Bennett working at a place called Decca, and Tracy had signed Banana Rama to Decca, and Roger had signed you know, Tainted, Soft Cell Dex's Midnight Runners. Roger was killing it and and they to keep him happy,

they gave him his own label. So they gave him the Redundant London label which was sitting on a shelf um and said well why don't you reinvent London And that he came together with Tracy and they formed London Records, and then there was a club promotions A and R man Phonogram at the time called Jeff Young who also happened to be a DJ that was a bit older than me and my buddy, and you know, I was almost his protege and he was also on the radio,

so I was kind of following his path. And he they assumed he was going to go with them to start this new venture, and he said no, he wanted to stay at phonogram Um and he wanted to retire. Eventually packed up djaying as well. He just wanted to do radio, not club djaying. And they said, well, who else are we going to call? And they said, did

you call this guy? Pete Tong? So I had a meeting with them and it was it was amazing those two, you know, rogers, very thoughtful and sensible, and you know Tracy was quite wild and flamboyant and the sexy guy everyone wanted to sign to kind of thing with with great spiel and amazing years. And I worked for the joined them and it was it was, you know, a

ride that took I went. I worked with them for eighteen years until early two thousand's, until the label got sold and it was it was an incredible time, incredible period, and um we hit the ground running and the first day ever went into work, UM we were number one in the chart with Candy Girl with new Addition, which Roger and traced licensed off of street Wise off Arthur Baker.

And I was given the tapes to the next single, like big half inch tapes, so you're a DJ, go and edit the next single and yet and I was like, and I was walking out the door and like, I'd never cut tape with a razor before, But I went. I went to a studio in Marble Arch which actually eventually became Paul Weller studio called Solid Bond, and there was a lovely old guy in there called Carlos and he he took me under his wing and he said, don't worry, We're going to work it out. Like, well,

what do you want to do? You know, It's like, well, I want to cut like eight bars out the interest he showed me, like with the razor. And I had cut tape at home, but nothing like on a master. Did you cut the master? The master? But I guess it was a copy of what they'd sent us from America. Back then. Um so you can't. I started editing literally my first day at work. It was quite funny, so it was a it real writes a passage. But and then you know, I started They started sending me to

America very regularly. And it was the days when you you know, walked down the street and bumped into someone and licensed a record off and a bit like I remembering Hurtigan m Urtigan's book he says that about the Rolling Stones, like you know, it was a fantastic tile down the street and I bumped into mid Jagger and I signed him. It was a bit like that with

dance music back then. And I signed Rundy m C licensed them from Profile from Corey Robbins for the for the world outside of America, and that got me straight in with with Russell and Leo um And and and Rick Rubin and m I met those three very early on and um And that we and we did and that was the Raising Hell album, you know, so that

was hugely successful. En off the back of that, I managed to sign Salt and Pepper from Eddio Lachlan the next Plateau Records in but tween signing like the odd early like Paradise Garage house record or the early house records that were coming through from Chicago, and I was I was on a roll as any and our man. I mean, we just we sounded push It and that

was like a massive, massive hit. UM and eventually Salt and Pepper we stuck with them UM and we ended up becoming the label in America eventually as well, during the kind of the en vogue what are man at times? So it was it was it was great fun. And then they gave me my own label. So dance music

was like blowing up. So in six eighty seven, just as house music was starting, we started f I started ffr R, which was actually a little symbol on the top of the old London logo that just stood for full frequency Range Recording, so it was like a mono stereo Dolby. It was an old symbol from the deca days about the quality of a recording. I thought it would be quite nice because we were obsessed by deaf jam so like Black Silver wanted something like death jams,

so FRR looked quite good. Okay, so you're working London records, you were successful. Sounds like you're making a good paycheck. Yeah, okay, and and then I was still all the way doing that's my question. How much were you DJing? Well then, like every week it was some you know the club scene. Okay, let's let's start there. Okay. There's a lot on how it did it. It's a long tradition of the Brits going to a Betha. But when did it turn into a whole dance stay up all night environment Betha. Well,

it was that from the very beginning. We just weren't welcome as Brits in the late eighties, so um, you know, we the Britgs used to go there is like a cheap tourist package holiday destination in the early eighties. And it wasn't till the late eighties, like specifically where I kind of discovered Alfredo and Amnesia and Passia and started seeing these parties that went through the night and then

carried on going when the sun came up. And that was totally unique because we had the licensing laws of the UK um and that's when everything started to really really change. But I mean, so Betha um from I've been there every year every ever since. But the yeah, the nineties, you know, it started to really kind of shape itself that it really really blew up in probably the two thousand's is when Oka. But the clubs there were they existing or did the Spianiards have a vision?

They had a vision for sure. It just by accident or design or this vision. Um, it happened to be this small island you've been, you've been and it you know, there happened to be there for four or five clubs, all very close to each other. That happened then went on to become some of the most famous clubs in the world. And I think it was the mix of the audience and then the liberalism of the licensing laws

that enable about to happen. So obviously it's changed a lot over the years because that that idea of going through to the morning and carrying on, that's kind of stopped, you know, the idea of the big superclubs like Amnesia Um and Passia in particular, going on until they wanted to like ten in the morning. That that's gone, you know that. So in the last ten years it's been much stricter about you must finish it six, when you must finish at seven, or you must finish it eight

or whatever. And then often the after and then there's no carry on like officially the after party seen often starts after lunch and it's actually a bit more organized and you know, so, but the the idea of going through the night get a long answer to your question, but actually it's it's probably been more curtailed. It was like that where it was like twenty four hours, you know, and now it isn't. It's okay, you can, but you can find somewhere to dance pretty much twenty four hours.

It's not in the same place. To what degree do you believe it was fueled by drugs? Um, Well, clearly really had a massive influence on it. Um that's that's okay. I mean it was at a combination of things. I mean, it's so it's easy from a tabloid non you know, educate. You know, if you if you don't know anything about the music and you just want to write a certain type of history about it, you could you could lean

in it that way. But to but to think that it wasn't artistic and it wasn't about the music, you'd you'd be completely missing the point, which comes right back to the beginning of our conversation, which is why a beether classics works because the music was great, and maybe it didn't necessarily get the the props it deserved back in the day, because that's what a lot of people thought. You know. The very reason we started the I M s was because people thought all that happens in a

Beth was it was a party. Okay, So how important is me and Chester of the hut Yanda and the acts there? Hugely important? Um, you know, that's a whole another thing. I was. I was an observer and occasional visitor. And I wasn't part of that because I was I was a London guy. Um, but you know, phenomenal apportment. And you've got to remember back in the late eighties when that started, you know, the country was much more disconnected.

You know, just the idea of like, you know, having these things and the way we all travel now, you know, being in London and like making a trip to Manchester, it was a massive thing. You know. It's like this did not happen on a regular basis, you know. And it was before DJs even traveled up and down the country. So I was a big DJ in in the southeast and I was virtually unknown in the rest of the country. But what was the night worth to you back then?

Probably um, but in the eighties I don't know there was. It definitely starts with hundreds and then it becomes thousands. So in any event, but you're aware of the scene in the Anchester totally. By then I was in the record company and Mike Pickering quite a grand part, quite rapidly became rival A and r Men as well. I mean Pickering went close in with Deconstruction, and Deconstruction became the label of the North. Even though it was run by one guy from Liverpool, it was actually always seen

as it was, you know. And then obviously Factory was most of those Factory acts, I mean Joy Division had purchase here and has maintained as bigger than it's ever been. But the Happy Mondays a lot of those acts never made it here. How big were they in the UK?

Absolutely massive and more than massive, they were hugely um you know, they carried an awful lot of gravitas, particularly new Order obviously coming from coming out of Joy Division less so something like Orchestral maneuvers in the darkest that the fact Factory was an amazing thing, you know, and I was I got deeply involved with them towards the end because London one kind of started to bail him out. You know. We started by licensing the Happy Mondays and

having their records around the rest of the world. And then as the financial troubles got worse, Um, we got we got further and further into factory to the point where we bought it. Yeah. So, and then I used to work a lot with Tony in the city and um Tony Wilson and um them. From an A and R perspective, I actually ended up looking after New Order and became their A and R man when they came over to London, and so I worked very closely with

you know, with Bernard and with Rob Grettan. Okay, so you're a DJ, at what point do you start playing individual records and start mixing the records together. Um, late late I'm just think this, but through probably early eighties, what was basically what happened is, um, you know, when the soul scene was blowing up, the underground soul scene, and it was a northern soul scene in in in

the North. Um. One of the guys in our gang, you know, the biggest, one of the biggest DJs of that time, was a guy called Froggy, and he was my mentor when it came to DJ equipment, So he was always the geek with the DJ equipment. Had this Orange sound system which was incredible, and I bought decks off him when he was re upp into the to

the newest model. So I got all his old equipment and became like an understudy to Froggy almost, But he started going to New York before and you know, one of the first guys to ever go to New York and see Larry Levan. Um. There was a very famous writer, a beautiful guy called James Hamilton as well that was like that used to review all the music for Record Mirror, and he was the first one to actually issue bpms, so he every review came with a bpms per minute.

And then and Froggy went over and like saw the early um you know, David Mancuso, and saw Larry Levan in action. And so when he came back from New York, like it was like he had two copies of everything. It's like what you know, what you're doing. It's like, oh, I can make I can extend this. And he literally came back. He literally it was like, you know Moses coming down from the mountain. It's like I've been to New York, I've seen Larry Leavan, and I've bought two

copies of this from the vinyl factory or whatever. And now I can play this record and make it like twice as long. And I was like, oh my god. And and that's because you work out what tempo it is and you match the tempo. And it was it was just it was before you know, it's just just as very speed turntables were coming in that in fact, you could even do that. So he opened He was definitely the gateway to open everybody's eyes to mixing, and we were we were edging towards smooth segways. I mean.

The other biggest DJ of the day was a guy called Chris Hill. I actually used to run Ensign Records with Nigel Lucy and Granger's brother and and they say of Boomtown Rats and shined O'Connor and and so Chris had a day job, but he was the biggest DJ at the time, and he used to sing over the records and talk across the segway, so it would like blurred everything together. Um and Froggy kind of brought in

this more like modern way of doing it. Obviously we were aware as well as like Africa Bambarto and the hip hop guys and what they were doing in terms of turntable ism. So it kind of that's when it all changed. And then suddenly, I don't know, there must have been one day where it just wasn't cool not to mix. You know, you just had you just you just assumed you had to mix. And by the time the house music kicked in, um, you know, like you just you just had to be doing that. It was

just the thing to do. Okay, did you practice or did you practice? No, definitely practiced. I had the whole set up at home and it um. And then and then they became people that were the best at mixing, you know. But there was melodic mixing, mixing and key mixing, beautiful transitions, you know, taking people on journeys, and I was you know, so it just raised the game. There was a guy called Sasha you know still around today, a good friend of mine that really it was another

one that really raised that. There was another real you know, raising the bar moment, like when he came on because he could just do it in his sleep, and he just everything always seemed to being key, and it just you know, not just about mixing out of the drum break of one into the drum break of the other, but actually thinking about, well, now this baseline is going here, I'm going to get this baseline to go there. And

that was yet. So its just the whole skill set around it and the the learning curve just increased hugely in the late eighties. Okay, so London record has assolted around the turn of the century. Where does that leave you? Um, weirdly at forty plus years old and sitting around going, um, oh my god, you know, for the first time in my life, even though I've done it my whole life, I'm i am a full time PJ. So um and I went. There was no thought of adding another record

company job. I was kind of over it by then. It got if you remember the naps to you know, two thousand, two thousand one, I mean, the dance music bubble had burst, you know, we all the way through the nineties, like the ecosystem, the economic value of dance music every year just kept going up like a stock

price out of control. So everything you know, and the infrastructure about dance music got fatter and fatter and fatter, and inevitably, after ten years of like fattening this giant cow bull um, people start to take their eyes off the ball. Things definitely aren't as good as they used to be, but everyone's making loads of money. And and I wouldn't say that it didn't pop around the millennium,

but it got punctured somewhere along the way. And as we came into the new decade after a couple of years, like the tires are deflating, um, you know, magazines are closing, major record companies are starting to either you know, make people redundant or tighten up. Budge. It's you know, doing doing, doing all sorts of stuff to dance labels. And by then my career at London, I was kind of head

of a and r of the whole thing. So I've kind of outgrown the dance bit and I've replaced myself with people, you know, many great people worked with me, and John Niven wrote the book about us with you know Killy your friends, but you know people like Nick Raphael who's very senior now at Capital, signed Sam Smith, you know, Christian tatters Field, and you're well aware of. UM used to work for us at London Records. UM.

Even Patrick Moxley worked at London Records. You know, there was like there was loads of people UM that have gone on to Paul McDonald. Funny enough, he was a manager of you know, James Bay and George George ezra Um. He was a London Records. You know, there was amazing It's sold basically, but I'd become head of an R

and it was like the game. I remember that signing some kind of pop things because everyone you start sign you end up signing things because you think they're going to be hugely successful economically and you kind of but you don't really love them. But like I remember there

was one I can't remember the name of it. UM. Oh god, I remember being involved in signing this pop act and it was only Smallman and Dennis Inglesby were the managers, and I and UM and and every you know, it's one of those ones where like Roger was sure, everyone was sure, Like the dorman of the building was sure, everyone at Radio one was sure. Like I've made it

about as sure as you could possibly making. It was hugely expensive and UM and we spent about a year doing this deal and six months making the record and then it was like and then we took it to Radio one one day and it was Alex Jones. Donnelly was the head of programming at that time. It was like and it's like literally within about a month they were dropped. You know, we wrote off like half a million quid and um, you know, people would get you know,

it's just like, no, I don't like this anymore. It was so and then so I started my full time role, started to be a bit of a consultant, and I remember when it got sold out and if you remember, Roger went into the kind of heavens like working with Dick Parsons at Warners. You know, John Reid took over on a day to day basis. We moved to Kensington. You know, me and Tracy were like, everything from our

kind of indie beginnings have changed so much. We kind of lost a bit of interest and I got more and more distracted by DJ and my DJing in the early two thousands. As as what happened to a lot of DJs. Then this is the economic value from recorded music collapsed. All the value went into live suddenly. Though with the Internet, we were getting calls from Peru and Chile and Australia for the first time, and you know, we could start traveling and migrating like birds to where

the money was. So two thousands to probably two thousand and five, I just did an awful lot of touring. So you at what point do you start working as a record executive. Well, two thousand one, two tho two

starts to kind of filter out. There was a little flirtation with Universal Um where I was going to I kind of did a deal to do some compilations, and I was going to consult with a dance label and some ex staff from London Records were working there and funny enough, six months ago to negotiating that, and um, the guy that did the deal I did. I signed a deal on a Friday, and then on the Monday he got pulled out and it was it was it was Matt Jagger and and that Jason ially came in

to take over and we got on fine. He said, it's just not my vision, you know, It's like I've got I've got enough things to fix here. That's not going to work. And um, so I went back out

and did other things. I was doing radio and I had a radio production company and stuff different to buses and pieces, and then um, around that same time I changed managers and then w m ME for the and I knew Tiger because Geiger was our agent for New Order, and so w ME opened in London, if you remember, it was Ed Bicknell, strangely stret manager, David Levy, Solomon Parker and they were the three that's opened and it

was that was their first office. And my manager was Gary Blackburn, who was the manager of Fact Boy Slim, who's David Levy's long term client. And Gary said, you should be with David. He's the best guy. And David was the first ever DJ agent anyway, literally in the world. He was the first, you know, dedicated agent for a DJ and that was Paul Oakenfold, so I knew about him. Um,

so I moved to w m ME. And at the same time Geiger was like, you know, well, he knew I was an out of work record company guy and he always saw me as that. He said, why don't you come and do an n R for an agency? So it was quite visionary thinking and I said, what do you mean, how's that going to work? So we'll just tell us what we should sign, you know, help us introduce us. You know, you know I love dancing music,

love electronic music. He always did. He was obsessed by Moby Um, obsessed by factory, and he said, why don't you come and do it here? So that's how that relationship started. And I'm still with him, you know. Okay, So now when you're on your own, how many nights a week or how many nights a month are you working back then? I mean, because I don't know like the average gigs is. I think my averages have gone. I think the peak was like a hundred gigs a year.

I was never like a dead mouse or you know, so you're never one because I was never. I was never two hundred gigs here. I mean, funny I've I've always had, you know, you know, I've gone through that divorce. I've gone you know that I'm definitely deejaying didn't help um, and that that early period of the two thousands where it all fell apart and me traveling, you know, more away from home. Insecurities probably, I mean all sorts of stuff,

and then um, but I've always cherished this other. I've never I think the reason I'm still dejaying to this day. Is simply because I never could do burnout because I always had you know, I see it as an artistic thing, and I definitely do do it for the money as well. But um, I've always managed to never have to do it as much as everyone else has had to do it because you've had other income streams. But assuming you did want to do it, there's enough workout there for

you to work do hundred nights a year. Not now, I wouldn't think, not unless I want to do some really rubbishy things that um that wouldn't enjoy. So I try and try, and I mean it's there's always this thing of and it's it's the same for if you're, you know, a musician in any genre of music doing it as long as I've done it, you have to. There's a certain amount of reinvention you have to go through.

But I think I've been lucky that my curiosity for the new and the next, and the fidgit nous of always thinking looking around the corner um has kept me current like that. It's just it's just the way I am, you know. Okay, So have you been one of those DJs you know, I travel with a USBs Dick, I get on the private jet. I'm going somewhere else. Has that been your Have you lived that lifestyle a little bit? Nothing?

I was a bit like um my, my era of true superstardom came a time where the money was still pretty crazy, but the travel wasn't. I was just before that, like so I'm talking about like mid two mid nineties to mid two thousand's was probably the purple patch for me, when I was like number one on poles and all

sorts of things, and then the money. Don't get me wrong, the money was still good, but we weren't doing what they It's a bit like football, you know, if you're George Best, you know it's amazing, right until like twenty years later there's David Beckham and you realize that you're earning like a tenth or a hundredth of what they're earning. And it's been a bit like that for me. So I still, you know, you still do well out of it, and yes, I've used I used private jets when I

have to do. But for me, you know, there was there was some times in a beef during the residency period when I before I moved to America. Um, there was one year, two years actually where I I was given a private jet every week for eighteen weeks for two years, like to do the whole season. So they would would be on Radio one until at nine o'clock at night on a Friday, and then I would we drive to the the airport and get a plane, do the gig, and then yeah, come back the next day.

So UM, that was how when did you get and how did you get the BBC gig? The BBC gig was so we're going back to We're wind back to the eighties again. So again I didn't use that word entrepreneurial at the time, but I guess looking back I was because it was like, well, how am I going to get involved in this music? I don't want to be UM, I don't want to be a breakfast show DJ playing pop records. But I love this music. So I just want to share this music with as many

people as possible. And the people are in for It's me the most in terms of shaping who I was as a DJ. With these guys, I was hearing on the radio playing specialist music, so it was a natural thing for me to like, well, I I want to do that. I used to sit at home listening to the radio, writing down what people said, writing down their names, of all the records, and I just got obsessed with it.

So I got when I was at the magazine, I was already I was dabbling with like local radio, pirate radio, UM, anything I could do to get on UM and a weird twist of luck fate. Whatever is This guy Froggy I told you about, had the equipment he used to do. He used to provide the equipment for Radio one road shows, so when Radio one did an outside broadcast, he'd be

the guy that would do the equipment. He then got to know some of the producers there and some of the DJs there, And there was this DJ called Peter Powell who was the drive time DJ, and he was very progressive with the music policy, very curious about you know. He was the one that broke Spandel Ballet and Duran ju around and Malcolm McLaren all these things. And he wanted to have a proper street DJ come onto his show on a weekly basis and give them some tips.

That was a feature he was doing. And it turned out that UM Froggy was was very technical and he was very good with with with mixing records together, so technical, but the content like sometimes he didn't have the time to find the records. So who did he call me? So I was at the magazine getting all this music and going around all the shops. So his feed fun froggy music. But lo and behold, what quickly happened is that they start inviting me as well to go up

to Radio one. So there I am at night and I'm going on to primetime BBC Radio one, giving them tips of my records. And I thought, this is like, literally I've literally gone from zero to and I literally after a couple of years of that, it was like, will give me a job, giving me my own show? It's like no, tap me on the head. So you've got to go away and get some more experienced son. You know, you can't just jump to the you know the Manchester United, Real Madrid, you know l A, you

know the forty nine. The biggest football club is um and so I I went back out and I U but I used that calling card of having been on Radio one. It's kind as leverage to get onto commercial radio and Kent and then I was on Radio London which is a BBC station. And I got into Capital with Richard park Um just as house music and the

rave scene exploded. So I was the Saturday night dance guy on the biggest radio station in London and I was there for four years um and then I was like the number one draft choice when that guy Jeff Young I told you about, retired and I then got moved to Radio one. So I joined Radio one in one and been there ever since. Now in America, nothing likes a lot. Is that the age? Is that you? Or is that BBC? I think it's a bit of both.

I think, um, there's nothing like the BBC globally unfortunately. Um, you know, just public service radio that wants to be

popular is an unusual thing. You know, you've got these Triple j's in Australia and things like that, but and you've got an MPR here, but nothing nothing like what the Radio one have done, you know, from and they get battered, you know, they get battered on a annual monthly basis by the conservative press that they shouldn't be there on across all disciplines of the BBC, from you know, news, sports, drama,

everything but radio. Thank god, it's been there and it's been you know, it's still it's brilliant, but it's still saddens me a little bit. I mean in terms of moving the needle in in UM, especially for dance music, electronic music. It's still does it better than anything in the world, which is great but actually also kind of a bit weird. But you also have a show on iHeart, right what I did actually that ended, that ended, and

it was you know, it was enjoyable. I got introduced to UM that I met all the senior people in Bob Pittman, right, and in a bether actually through Pino Sagliocca, remember there doing a very famous live Nation promoter and they and they would you know, I think Bob's sun was enjoying a beether and everything like that is anyway that Pete Songs, your guy like Pete Songs should do

a dance show. And I did it for a while, but it was a bit it was, you know, good people around me, but it was a little bit soulless. I just found it. I don't know, no disrespect to our heart, but it's that it's just that thing of like it's a commercial radio station, commercial model, and it's the commercial model for music. It's always been a struggle in this country to do specialist dance radio. And I want to point out the read and the simple thing being.

You know, I used to go to New York City, as I said, it's a sitting hotel rooms and I would listen to Frankie Crocker, w b Less, Timmy Registered, Massive Respect, Merlin Bob. You know, these guys trained me, taught me so much when I was a kid about dance radio and mixed radio, and I wouldn't be here

without them, and they were. They were on American stations, but um sat sadly most outside of obviously, you know, the metropolis of New York City being so big, no no other you know, mixed show radios on the American radio tend to happen after midnight or super you know. The whole power of Radio One was like Pete Tong was on at six pm on a Friday night, you know, and they and he stayed there for you know, I'm still on a Friday night. I'm on a bit later now.

I start at nine and two hours for my show and two hours hosting the essential mix later in the night, and it's all gone to like listen again and BBC sounds and you know it's like it's a different model now. But to be on basically at six o'clock at night for twenty years at least, Um, that's what made it so powerful. That's why it moved. You're living in l a oh that's prerecorded now now it's I do it at home. You know, it's smoke and mirrors and technology,

thank god. And when I'm in London, I do it live. So I'd still got back quite regular. Okay, best gig you've ever had foo Probably Love Parade um was one of them, doing in Berlin when it still happened, you know, being I was one of the first ever Brits to be invited to play at the monument Um and there was a million people on the streets. So that would Love Paraders where they had the accident all the people died right um in Germany where they were ultimately going

through the tunnel. I don't know if it was still the Love Parade then, but maybe okay parade was an open street in what year was that, um? That must have been early nineties. Um, So what made it a great well being playing to so many people and it being a kind of historic thing and we did we we we recorded it for Radio One as well. Um so it's just I just obviously one of those things that will never happen again. And we tried to replicate

it in UK. We did a UK Love Parade and there was one in Leads in a place called round Hay Park and that we got two fifty people and it was me and Sasha and Darren Emerson from Underworld on stage at the end. That was that was truly special, but unfortunately a lot of people's gardens got trampled and like people were and then We've Got We've Got moved to Newcastle the next year and it was a very

toned down version and it never quite worked. Um Space a beefing, you know, all those beef clubs, having got to play them, all of them at some point, will always be special. South America is really good. Argentina in particular in my wife's Brazilian but Argentina is probably the most the true natural home to kind of electronic music. You know, it's I've played some pretty special shows in Chilean and Brazil, but Argentina is something about that the

kind of mentality down there and then America. You know, the US has been pretty amazing as well. I mean, Miami might as well be another country as that's it's that's you know, so mixed down there, especially during conference time, you know, in that Miami Music Week. That's that. You've got some great memories there. And Space in Miami is

probably the closest. Who was the first club to ever be remotely like a beether And to this day, funny enough, it's more like a beether and the bether is now because Space Miami does go pretty much twenty four hours. So okay, most exotic place you've ever played, um Borakai maybe in the Philippines. Um you got to look it up and yeah, I don't even know what that is. That's like a very long plane ride but followed by two small planes in a boat, so you get to

like desert island. And I did this party in the days when cigarette companies were still allowed in some corner of the world to sponsor parties. And it was me and Almond van Helden Todd Terry funny enough, and it was on a beach, sand in your shoes, you know, and it was that was pretty exotic. So what's the biggest p day you've had for a d G gig Um New Year's Eve, Um probably seven figures. No, No, I think back then it was it was six figures,

but it was, which is still pretty big. But um, yeah, okay, now I'm not Yeah. I mean does the music excite you as much today as it did back in your formative years in hey day? Hard to yes, yes and no. Um, I worry something, you know. I was talking to the guys that Splice about this this morning about how, you know, the ultimate you know, electronic music probably more than any other form of music. It's been so democratized, you know, every you know, the barriers to entry and completely removed

so everyone can make music. It's amazing. Everyone can publish their music on SoundCloud and obviously we talked about all the streaming services um and the keys have been handed over of the asylum as they used to say. But the downside of it is it almost seems harder and you know, to get to the Triple A list at the very top. That that worries me a little bit.

You know, it's very easy to make a very good record now you know, it's it's it's almost impossible to make a genius record, you know that dance music with the sample packs and like if you know you can make you can make that something sound pretty convincing forgetting the people who get in at the bottom, you know, the semi pros. Uh, if you are at the top tier, are there fewer genius records than before? I think so? Yeah, I think so. I mean there's no disrespect to some

you know I did. Yeah, we haven't had you know that that era of the Prodigy and Underworld and you know Orbital and um, you know we staft punk even now is a long time ago. Um, so I think the yeah that you know, I'm I'm kind of waiting, you know, we're all you know, the fishing nets are out in all stripes of music. I would use a similar description. And uh, and what I would label popular music the Spotify top fifty especially certainly a narrow genre.

So who do you believe are the most artistically successful DJs working today? It's a big question board. Um whoa that that there's a there was a fork in the road somewhere during the E d M era where the the what the ranking system from success it was was two different paths. So you've got the music makers, you know, the pop producer writers, so and whether you like their

music or not, you have to give them credit. And you know, from David is a good friend of mine, even you know, Marshmallow as well to Sathing did come from our world and gone and gone into the stratosphere of another world. And I think, you know, I wasn't particularly a Marshmallow fan at the start of what is music, but I'm a big fan of what he's achieved in terms of the impact and influence and consistency that he's been able to have at the very kind of top

tier of the pop table. So I think that's worth the props. Um. On the underground electronic side, there's there's some amazing you know, the highest paid, I should say, and that's because they sell the most tickets. Um are people like Solomon and Black Coffee and Tail of Us and Marco Corolla, UM and the and the Rise of the Girls. You know, it's it's amazing to see you know, Peggy Goo, Charlotte de Witter, Emily Lens, Nina Kravitz, Um.

We've probably seen the biggest game change in the underground world in the last five years, you know, truly the the the key, you know, the batons being moved on to a new generation and a new and a new and a new look, you know. And the fact that female DJs and and female electronic musicians are having such a massive impact is is great. Now do you equate those people who are getting the big paychecks, are those also the people pushing the envelope artistically? Yeah? I think so.

I mean with the underground, you don't get there by. You get there because you earn the right to be there. It's like so it's like being in the trenches. You know, it's like being a stage actor. Um, you have to go and press the flesh, tread the boards, do the work, and you get to the top of the tree because people think you're really really good and you and you continue to innovate with your sets. They've all got their own labels, they're all championing another generation of musicians. They've

all got their own sound. Um. So I think that's a very healthy ecosystem, except for the actual person doing it. I mean it's hard. It's it's frontline, you know, in the trenches work and and the underground is not, Um, it's not it's not turning up and playing an hour at E d C. It's often playing you know for ten hours, um, seven hours, six hours, you know, the big long sets and after parties, and you know, the legends around those guys is almost dude down to their endurance.

You know. I was interloom Um a couple of days ago, because that's become early January has become a time when all of the underground guys flocked there and there's all these big parties um. And as I was leaving, Solomon played his party the night before we left. And then when I got back here, I heard the guy at my hotel said, old Solomon's doing his after party today. And when I got back, and then two days later

someone said it just finished. So it's like it's it's it's heavy, you know, and it's some but I guess it's about as rock and roll, you know. Well, it's kind of the punk end of if you want to use that analogy, it's like the punk end of of our world. Um. And you know, I hope rather than just headonism, good stuff comes out of it, you know. So, okay, how about this hasn't been something reading about recently, the

concept that people are just standing on stage pushing buttons. Yeah, I mean some some of them are and they push a lot of buttons in the right order and it's great. So I think, um, you know that Analogy was all about pre pre organized sets. But you know I was being you know, having obviously being behind the scenes, I can clearly see you know, this was about music makers playing their own music and getting booked at bigger and bigger and bigger events and having more and more responsibility

to kind of blow everybody's mind. And in the case of Swedish House Matthew who definitely wrote the book on it first, um, it starts to get into choreograph shows, you know, and you're spending you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars on a visual experience. They took it to another level, you know, they bought that kind of you two level of production into the electronic world. And I always say hats off to him because they were the first.

I mean, Tiesto was going around, you know, Paul Oakenfoll was doing it first, you know, to a certain extent. Tiesto took it to a whole another level. Arm and Vambera and all these guys. But you know, and the show has got bigger and bigger and bigger, and and they were still essentially djaying and there still was, um a sense of Tiesto didn't know what he was going

to play in what order. You know. He had a box, you know, and he had a selection and he had his favorites, and he was a smart DJ, so he knew how to make the crowd go crazy and stuff like that. But but there still was an element of free willing what he could do, and he could make a last minute decision and change something. And then the Swedish House Mafia era where they start doing Milton Keene's Bowl, which was unheard of in the UK for a bunch

of DJs playing to you know, eighty thousand people or whatever. Um. You know, then you've got to have a U two type rolling Stones stage and you've got to put films on and they've got to tie in with the with the music you're playing and the lights and the explosions. We've got a golf at the right time. So you get into that thing that you can't change the order.

You know, you can change the order maybe before the show starts, you know, a couple of days to tell the visuals guy but you can't just change the order. And that's where that comes from, you know. And I think Dead Mouse, to a certain extent, you know, fueled that as well, because he clearly was never really playing records. But you know, the guy was playing back his own music and reinterpreting it in different ways. So okay, when you played, you playing it advance? How do you do it?

You spin records. I've come through the full cycle of like vinyl into CDs, into playing off the laptop with all of the software when it all started, like Ableton and Tractor and Serato and stuff like that, and and I've gone full circle back to um. Yeah, I carry around a couple of big drives like that, and I plug him into CD players and I don't have pre planned sets. No, I'll do some sets that will be quite similar, you know, two or three days in a row,

but I'll change things around. So I'm still doing it old school. It's with the orchestra that I've got into that hole. And we you know, the orchestra week we can we can change a few things. We changed songs night by night, but we have um that that's more like it's not pressing buttons, but its well as they has to be, you know, all the York rib so so I've you know, so I'm still djening old school in that sense. Yeah, all gone thumbs up, thumbs down,

what the film thumbs up? Okay, But the concept using it, it's like, you know, we talked about Howard Stern and they have hit him with a high and I know John Hind heats it. So I always loved it. It was it was a it was meant to be. It was.

It was a fanzine in the UK called Boys Zone who were made some mine actually, but they were very stroppy, kind of like angry men, and they started this fanzine and the whole point of the fanzine was basically like fuck it, you know, it was to get in there and like stir of shipped up and so they'd be rude about everybody and that. And I was djaying with these guys and they were that's the way they were

rude about me. And it was meant to be a way of winding me up at the start because I was you know, there was a thing in the UK with if you were around before the year zero, which was basically when house music started, then you were a Dinosaur and the fact that I was in the soul boy era before and a bit of the hip hop era. They they were like, what are you doing? Is it's all gone pizza on? So it was like it was

this and then it caught on. It became later on like cockney rhyming slang and in the Penguin Dictionary and all this stuff, and then you know, it's notoriety. It was like, you know, it was. It was fantastic. And then to end up having a movie made of that name was that just took it to another level. So now we are now I have my own parties. You know, we would call it you know, we do it in Miami and we do it around the world. It's all on Pete songs. It was good. Okay, So what is

the future hall for you? What is the dream that's like you've obviously achieved so much and unexpected, like you know with the BBC at age nineteen, What what would you like to achieve or do in the future, whether it be music oriented or not. Well, for me, it's always come to music discovery and curation. So it's it's finding a way, I guess of moving into this next

decade gracefully and still being out the work. I'm blessed with that and be healthy, um and just I guess try and use my whole life's worth of experience in A in a positive way. UM and hopefully still try and not. I'm back into like the A and R gig again. I just joined three zero with Mark Llespie. It's Calvin Harris's manager, um, and we've rebooted his label through Sony. So I was, I was. I did go back into the Warner system for a few years. UM, but my curiosity is back again about A and R,

about being act more hands on. I think funny recording the albums with the orchestra and being back in the studio hands on. I mean, I had this great education and met all these amazing people. You know, I was at the end of the you know, Tommy Mottola, water yet Ni Cough, you know Berry Gordy, you know with I've met so many people in my time. You know, I worked with Chris Morris as Chris Thomas in the studio making records, you know, Um, and I kind of

missed it. So I think, you know, if I if I can help nurture the next generation and champion their cause then that I would be happy. But there's no intermounting flame or destination something that you would like to achieve that you know, stratospheric. I still think this is have end endless conversations with people like saying low about this of you know, where it's all going. I think I worry about music discovery and curation, you know, and

that's completely broke it. Yeah, I mean there could be great stuff that doesn't rise to the time I think. I think on a very basic level, on a really really basic level. You know, the DJs I talk about, especially the underground ones, are still in a sense, um, the greatest curators in the electronic world anyway. Um. And I was just thinking on the way up here actually

that um quite. I don't know. Maybe maybe a few, you know, maybe if you have the DJ to spend less time taking photos of themselves on beaches and actually tell us what music they're playing, that's an interesting way to put it. I don't know. I just think the future curation is it's still up. It's it's still up.

For the obvious thing that people talk about playlists, I never believe I'm trying playlists and streaming services but as I say, yes, if you want to listen to the pop hip hop, you know, pop songs already on a grandde you can find that very easily. Other genres of music. I mean, you know, if you go through the genre playlists on Spotify, which is the big hood, you know, you can't listen to that music, never mind that much

bad music. But somethin's personality lists. So I think, you know, as much as that sounds old school coming from someone like me, I just think, you know, it's it's ultimately will come down to personalities. You know, Virgil Aublaw does a pretty good job turning people onto fashion, and there's been certain people, you know, certain musician, you know, certain hip hop people back in the day that have turned people onto I believe, I think, I think, but I

believe the culture is totally changed. The culture is purely about money, and there's really no money in curation, at least as we can see the short way done. There never was that at the beginning for the you know, not for me, not for John Peele, not but John Peel he got they say, and yet she got the narcis whatever. He got the great adulation, so without the money. But in today's society, where it's bottom line money, everybody is driving in another direction, even though it's the artist

who's honest who ultimately has the most impact. So it either takes some one where money is not the number one thing, where just as a dream to to fix this. And I think we're, you know, across the world, certainly in America, we're moving towards that era, income, inequality, etcetera.

And I think, I mean you you spent a lot of your blokes that I've read, you know, and you know loyally, I mean all the star I mean all the style of Apple music was based on the same frustration, right from Jimmy and um from Trent to try to actually get skeet curation salted. That was kind of right, But I think, you know, I don't want to make it about Jimmy specifically. I just didn't think they had

it right. I didn't think, you know, there was a playlist company for you least to hype me all the time. We would know as active listeners, we like to pick the tracks we're listening to, but we certainly know the past, We know that people we know, with the great unknown, we have no way to go through and certainly listening to radio. None of the radio DJ it's like Apple Beach Radio. They announced that I haven't heard a person talking about Beach radio Beach one radio and years. Okay,

that's just not how people listen. But I like, I have a guy in Nashville happens to work for w m A, and he sends me what to listen to, and I always listens to everything and he's always right like like it, But I like someone who could do it. In general, I think, you know, one of the problems is we give everybody a break where in reality is we discussed most of the stuff is ship. Just tell me what's great and I and I have an unlimited don't give me a hundred tracks to listen to, give

me three. Okay, in any event, that's a different discussion. Beat. Thanks for the illumination. Thank you great, great to have you. Until next time, It's Bob left Sense