Paul Rodgers

And then, of course I was a huge Bad Company fan. But the first album when it came out in the summer seventy four, just after I graduated from college, I saw you at the Arms show with Jimmy Page. I have a big history. So this is great, thank you, Okay, so great to be here. So now this summer you're on tour with Jeff Beck and Ann Wilson. That's right.

How did that come together? Well, it's actually came together. Um. I did a tour in the UK reliving Free that the band had played All Right Now originally, and I called it Free Spirit because I was playing with this band. Um, I should back up a little bit. We did um some charity shows myself and Pete Bull Expand and they played the free materials so very well that I said to them, like, what, one day we should take this on tour. It was it's such a great feeling, and

so we did. Every year we did for about three years. We did a charity show there for Willows, which is um an animal sanctuary, and all the proceeds went up to Willows and Cynthia, my dear wife, Cynthia will tell you all about Willows if if she's sitting in the control room right now, you know. And um, so we did that and then the club closed down. The club we're playing closed down, so everybody was a bit side, and I said, well, we'll tour it, wonder, We'll take

this whole thing out. We'll do it entirely free material And we did that last year in the UK and it was so warmly received that, um, I said to to Pete, you know and the guys, let's take it to America. Let's let's going to America with it. We were initially just going to do a small clubs, small theaters actually, and uh, it's kind of the way we did in the UK. It's but it's kind of grown a little bit since Jeff Beck and Ann Wilson were

you know, came on board. And I've worked with Jeff before, I've worked with and before, and uh, it's going to be great. Okay. Howard Lee's originally from Hard He's in your band, correct, He's in my solo band and he also depths for Mick Rals when we do when we go out as Bad Company. Is that how you know Ann Wilson or is that just serendipitous? Well, I know

we sort of cross paths over the years. I met her when I first I can't remember when I first met her, but I know that she really touched my heart. One day I was doing a recording in Seattle and she was next door. I was recording the Beatles. I once said a girl, Oh, should I say one of the amazing things? You know? I went to see you at the Yell County Fear almost two summers ago, and the legend about you is, unlike everybody else, you still

have your voice, you can still sin is there? You're also known as being an incredible health Is there a reason for that? Is there something or is this just genetics? Well? I think part of it I mean a huge part of it is my wife, Cynthia. She's she had a fitness show and she's very, very fit person. And when I met her, I had to get my act together a little bit, you know, But I do, I mean, I I do value. I mean a lot of people do and value as being as fit as you can.

I think it's it's uh, it's a big plus for whatever you do. And in my case for singing, it really does help, you know, because it's it's grueling on the road. And so anyway to finish that story, no, we're getting back. I'm big. We're in the studio in Seattle and Ann Wilson his next door. I did not forget that she did. I mean, she popped her head and she said, oh, that sounds nice. And I said, oh, come in, and she said, do you want me to

put a harmony on that? And I said yes, and she she went walked straight into the mic and did a beautiful harmony on it. And she came back she said, was that okay? I said it was absolutely fantastic, and and she said okay, and she waved, she walked out. She was gone, just like that, and it was so nice of her just to give her something. How long ago was this, Oh man, this was probably fifteen years ago, a long time back. And I just love her. I think she's great. I think she's a great artist, and

she's a lovely person. Yeah, and you know Jeffrey, I mean we all, But how do you have a personal relationship with them? Well, Jeff Beck, I mean Jeff Beck first touched me actually when I heard the Truth album what it's called the Truth Album and the Star first solo album. Yes, and it's ships, yeah, shame yes, ship I know. And and there is a song and I don't like the title, but they called it rock my plim Soul. I think it's actually rock me baby. But

it's the best version of that I ever heard. You can't rock Me. I mean, they really rip it up. And this was before Zeppelin, before Cream, before Hendricks Broke in England and any of those fantastic acts. Um, and they really set the bar I think for the next fifty years of rock and roll. They don't even know it. I mean they probably go, uh huh, we did, but

I don't. But they really did. I mean they certainly did for me, because that's Rod Stewart singing and Jeff's guitar, and I think it was Mickey Waller on the drums, and I do believe it is the guitarist with Robby wood Play on bass and the bassis do Do Do Do Do Do? Do? You know they're like right in sync? Do Do Do? And Uh, it was just so great And I always wanted to sing. That's been such an

inspiration for me for years. And we've done things together, Jeff and I. He was I did a tribute to Muddy Waters and give him a call and and he he played three tracks and he was absolutely fantastic. So yeah, we go way back. Okay, So best guitarist of all time, best rock guitarist, Well, you know my favorite that my soul mate really was Paul Kossof with Free. That's when I first met him. I was playing at a little blues club in Finsbury Park and he came up and said,

I've got a guitar in the in the car. Can I get up on stage and jam? And I said, I absolutely bring it in, let's go. And uh. He was this long HAIRD had hair down to like past his you know, past his butt really and he had the most amazing levies on for the day. Levi's didn't make flares, but he bought two pairs and had a tailor put a little V and each side, each leg, and he looked it was and handmade boots. It was just so cool, and and he got up and we

played bb King. We played every day I have the blues. I think we played Stormy Monday, and he just at times stood still for everybody in the place. And I said to him afterwards, we must form a band. We got to get something together. And that's how Free was born. Okay, let's let's go sideways, then go back to the beginning. So Paul dies on a flight back to the UK, I mean not Paul podcast of yes, and uh, you know,

I hear varying things. I hear that he odd Al Cooper is a big friend of his, says, you didn't really odd g his heart gave out, which I would think of drugs. Can you gu any insight on that? You know? I understood him to have aldi. That's that's actually all I know. But I might be wrong. But for me, um, he was always a very together guy. He was never into heavy drugs. And one gets the impression from a distance that oh, you know, there goes another one. He was just typical of the you know,

the genre, but not really. When we first got together, he did all the driving. He drove the band up and down the country, you know, eight hours here, I was there to the shore. On top of that, our three shows actually, and he was really really together. We we didn't dabble in drugs. We smoked a bit of weed, quite a bit of weed, I must admit, and um, that's as far as we went. We didn't do the

chemical thing. I was very much against putting anything of of of that nature into my body, you know, but I didn't mind a little weed, as it were, because I thought that was kind of you know, banding your mind, right, That's what we all thought in those days. And that's that's I think that's how come the the drugs, the the chemical drugs got consumed because because it was like it was like, oh, if that expands your mind, then you know, heroin and cocaine must really expand your mind. Well,

you know, it doesn't really. And he got into all that stuff after Free had split up, which was a very very sad thing. We did a couple of sessions together and he put the track he should listen to. Really, if you want to hear the heart and soul of podcast, offer a song we did called come Together in the Morning. Um and do did a little. I mean, he plays his heart and soul. It's just amazing. It is so good. I'm a huge fan. I was always a fan. I

bought fire and Water. But about twenty years ago in Him put out a anthology two c ds of molten gold, old whatever. And you listen to the work, I'm them and I I'll be creeping. I always love but the sound on the steeler, just the way the guitar sounds unbelievable. But let's go back. So you're from where in the UK? I'm from Middlesbrough, which is a town in the northeast, an industrial, heavy industrial town, steel mills and shipbuilding. Uh. And I came down before you. What did your father do?

What did your father do? Father worked in the steel mills. And you have siblings? I s I'm of one of seven, one of seven. Where are you in the hierarchy? I'm I'm right in the middle. Actually have three older sisters, uh, two younger brothers and a younger sister. So I'm right in the middle. Of seven. Now. Ray Davis always talks about being turned on to music by his older sisters.

Was that the case with you? Yeah, I mean they were teenages when I was still a toddler as you were, So I mean, you know, they loved Elvis Presley and I used to like, wonder what it is about this guy? And I'm still wonder ring, although at a good time it gracely, and I'm still wondering on the music. Yeah, well he did, you know. I mean guys like that, they have something special. I think they do. The Beetle had something special to and there are very many people

that give to the world themselves through their music. I don't know, you know, it comes from it comes from like I don't know, the universe or something, and they are conduit. They are a conduit for change in many ways. And I think Elvis was one of those people. You know. I never saw a bad photograph of Elvis. He always looked amazing, although that in Vegas the bloated Elvis. But before that, I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I'm sure you've been to Memphis and you go

to like the tailor that he used. It was like you know, we live in the modern era. We figure everyone's using the best people. It was kind of backwoodsie and they all surprisingly so yes, yeah, yeah, And he was influenced by a lot of the soul music and the blues that was going on, although the kernel I think kept that separate, you know. I mean, he's the white guy and they they, and he was like they. He was one of a kind, one of just one

of a kind. But I think he was definitely I've got a photograph of him with BB King, and I never saw that throughout his years, never saw that connection. That's an interesting point. Never thought. We never saw him mixing with the African Americans and he was really it was really right in the center of it, and it couldn't help but be influenced by it, I think. And so there it is, and it's a beautiful thing. Okay, so you're in the northeast of UK. How do you

get interested in music? Well, um, I I the radio was on an awful lot of the time. When I was growing up. We had something called Ready Fusion. You get TV and you get free radio. So the radio, because it was free, it was on all the time and I listened to Frank Sinatra growing up, because it was just there on the radio. Then marriage, you know, and I was I was always amazed at the quality of the vocals in those days, Andy Williams, you know

Frank of course. And and although it's only looking back that I was amazed, I just accepted it at the time. But one day, when I was about thirteen, my father bought me a guitar. Became only But what was the inspiration? Had you asked for a good time right out of the blue. And I didn't quite know what to do with this thing. I mean, I thought, well, it's got it's going to be easy to play. Well it wasn't. And um so I switched to the bass because bass

has four strings and therefore is easy to play. And did you play four Did you get a base or was it four strings on the guitar he brought I got a base? Yeah. Well, actually what happened was because I had the guitar, that made me eligible to join the class band. There was a band in the in the class and this was something that was organized by the school or just the people who were the school was not interested in rock and roll at all, you know, in those it's very strict. I mean, so no, this

was entirely outside of the school curriculum. And so we all got together in in Mick Moody his kitchen and banged pots and pants if I had a hammer and hammer in the morning, you know, and all that we thought we did good, you know, And and so but I switched to base and we got we kept at it, we got more and more professional, and and one, you know, in our mind, we didn't. Mike had an A C thirty which we all plugged into. Explained to my audience that is, oh, it's a it's an Vox. A C

thirty is an amplifier. The Beatles used them, actually, Vox's AC thirties, and it had a lot of inputs. So in theory you could plug everybody into it, but of course you are overloading it quite a bit. But anyway, we didn't worry about that. We just plugged in and away we went. And we did this kind of privately, apart from driving his parents up the wall. Actually, imagine until one day at a very nosy neighbors said, oh, oh, you've got a bandon, have you go, and then plays

a song and we looked at each other. We never played to anybody before, and this was our big chance, I think in a way. And so we played whatever it was and she clapped at the end of it, and we thought, oh, this is good, and so that broke the ice a little bit. Then we started to do shows, and you know, you just stay with it and you're playing shows, playing what material. Well, we played a mixture of what was in the charts at the

time until we discovered soul music and blues music. Actually, um I remember we we played at one place which was right next to it was a youth club, was

right next door to the pub. And the pub closed and there's only a few kids and a little younger kids and a great The doors at the back burst open, and all these drunken youngsters from the pub came in looking for a fight, looking for trouble, just as we were going to I know you want to leave me to let you, and they all like stopped at the door just the music actually stopped them in their tracks, and they also and then they all started dancing, and

we looked at each of them. We thought, Wow, the power of music, because you know, they looked like trouble and and uh, it was great and there was a great night. You learn things like that, you know. Okay, So at what point did you realize you could sing? Actually? Uh, I'm still learning, to be honest, but I mean I

love to listen to Hollan Wolf. I was a very When I think back, it's very unusual to think of a thirteen year old boy sitting up in his room listening to listening to I Have had my fun, you know, Helen Wolf. If I don't get well no more, you know, talking about he's dying. All those lyrics we listened to a kid, I understand them. I just saying them that I didn't understand. Well, no I didn't. I mean, you know, she must be tired of living. I'll put us sick

feed in her grave. I mean, this is tough stuff. Man. You know, those guys lived a heck of a life, and yeah, you do you just kind of like, oh, that's the lyrics, right, you know, But that was the reflection of their life and how life was for them, and it just no matter what they were singing about though, there was a real deep spirit to the music, a real passion, and they didn't they didn't take any prisoners musically.

They just would do in this because they wanted to do it UM and I guess they they had their own scene going down there in Memphis and around there, and the bars and the chicks and the booze and just everything. The whole life style. It to me. It it opened my eyes to another world, you know. But the music itself was something that I really wanted to do. I wanted to do that for some reason, I thought. I so it as a career at that young age. Well, I wasn't thinking about careers, but I just wanted to

do that. I want to do that, you know, somehow wherever it takes me. And I think that's kind of the story of my life in there. Okay, but you but you relate those guys you leave and go to London at age fifteen, you said, age seventeen. I was an old guy by the time. Okay, so it's seventeen. You finished, you finished what we call high school. Yeah, I finished school. I graduated at sixteen actually in those days. And then I worked at a paint store in the in the in the back of the planet, and we

do did gigs around town. But it was always UM the music that was number one for me. I only worked there because to have a job, I had to put food on it to oh, I mean I had to pay my mom and stuff. So I but music was the thing and we were all but by this point, before you left home, the Beatles it hit right. Yeah, the Beatles were everything in the world, because they certainly were in America. Yeah, and okay, so how do you

decide to go to London? We just did, Actually we just said it was we at this point, well it was me. It was me, Mick Moody, Bruce Thomas, and Dave Usher. Davosher was the drummer Thomas who ultimately played with the Carstello. Yes, actually, yes he did. He went on to play with him, I understand. And uh, Dave Asha was wild and crazy guy, big head of ginger hair. It gave me a lot of blues records. He gave me some of the Howling Wolf I had as well. Uh,

singles very hard to find nowadays. Um, and we just already said, well let's go to I I remember actually said to my mom I'm thinking of going We're thinking of going down to London and like making the big time. And I was surprised because I thought she'd say, you're not going, not going down to London, and that would have been the end of it. To be honest with you, I wouldn't have gone. If she just said no, I would not have gone. But she said, okay, well my

now you go. I'm like, huh, that's permission? Oh my god. So I went back to the to the rest of the guy said well, I'm on, are you on? And so it was like if we did, dare we did? We? And we went down and promptly were very, very hungry for a long time. What was the first break or with the first change that put you on the right path in London. Well, what happened for me was that, you know, the rest of the guys, they they didn't like being hungry, they didn't want to continue, and they

went back home. Actually, and I stayed down there and I met Paul us Off at the Blues club I mentioned earlier, and really we put that bend together in the space of a few months. And then Andy Fraser came along. He knew um Alexis Corner. Alexis Corner put us in touch with a couple of it. We tried a couple of people actually, but we eventually found Island Records and Chris Blackwell, and they were along with Chrysalis. They were in Oxford Street that they were sharing offices

at the same time. I mean they became very Chrystalis, jethro Tell and Joe Cocker and all these people that later became stars. So everybody was becoming a star of and I everybody who were bumping into in the street. It was, you know, one day you were at the Marquee and the next day they were in the charts, and it was it was just that was the time, that was the period of that was what it was like in those days. And everywhere you went there was

music it seemed coming out of the windows. Uh and and there was suddenly there was Hendrix and there was Cream and all this music was really happening. So we were in the midst of all that. We'll take a quick break and come back with more of my conversation with legendary vocalist Paul Rogers, recorded live at the tune

In Studios in Venice, California. This podcast is brought to you by tune In, which brings together all the live sports, music, news and podcast you learn, original, live and on demand audio, all in one place. Go to tune in dot com slash left sets to download and listen. Okay, let's get back to my conversation with Paul Rogers. So you get a record deal now. In the US, Free flew under the radar until all right, Now, what was the level

of success in the UK? Well, we were what they call an underground by and we we weren't commercially successful, but word of mouth was enough. We would fill out all the clubs in the in the UK wherever we played, and we played everywhere. We went over to Germany too, and we played in France sometimes, and we played in countries in Europe. Um wherever we went. We it was kind of we were bubbling under. And uh yeah, so now at this point you're singing but you're also writing.

When did you become a writer? Yes, well, just about the time I met Paul Klassof, I had written. I thought about songwriting and I thought, well, now, how do you write a song? And we would would. I've been playing a lot of blues and there's a thing called the twelve bar blues, which is a great structure and there are so many variations of it, and it's a it's a brilliant structure. Whoever wherever that evolved from it. I think it came from God himself, because it's a

structure upon which you can hang your soul. You can put any kind of lyric that anything you want to say. The first line, then the second line repeats that. Then it's the killer line. My throat is dry, my knee is a week it's so damn hard I can't even speak. Welcome my shadow. And we I wrote a song. I thought, well, if you write a rift do dink dink do the link do in the twelve hour structure and then you put your own lyrics on it, you've written the song,

haven't you. And so that was my first song. And then uh m, Paul kastof, give me some music, piece of music. Do Do Do Do Down Do Doom doo doo, and I wrote, He said, can you write lyrics to that for me? An ideas? And that became Moonshine. So we were now we were songwriters, and it was it was a natural step. I was going to say that we we had about three or four of our own songs freed in initially, and uh why was it named free? And it was named free because during the when about

the first time. We got together at the Nag's Head, which is a pub in Bartrassy, and there was a room above it the bands rehearsed and were We had our first rehearsal there and we were playing Moonshine, the song that Cost had given me to write the lyrics to when Sit Here Alone in Crime and it was a big climax thing and um yeah, and then Alexis

Corner came in. We walked in at that moment with his family, his wife and kids, and sat down and we all took a break and we sat down and he said, well, I've been listening outside the door, and you are a band. And we looked at each other because when we when we walked into that room, we were four separate people. But because we could say, well, do you know spoonfuls? You know every day have the blues And we all played a lot of blues songs

because they're very good to jam on. That's the beauty of it, actually, uh, And we were a band by the time we'd finished rehearsing, and he said, okay, you sound like a band. All you need now is a name, and where everybody sat pensively thinking my name, yeah, and he said, well, if it helps you. I used to have a band with Cyril Davis harmonica Player when we called it Free at Last, and everybody sat from it and it seemed to be like a group decision and said,

well it's got to be free, hasn't it free? And that was that was it, without a word. It was like a cosmic decision, you know. And how do you write? All right? Now? Well, Andy and I Andy Fraser and I started to get into seriously writing when I moved into his house actually because I had no where to stay, and his mom said, well, you can sleep on the couch, so I'll sleep on the couch. And and of course we was music, right, we get the base out and and he wrote music, and I wrote lyrics, and I

lyrics and at our music and Hero lyrics. So we we just wrote songs and that's all we did. And it was amazing discovery actually to find that, you know, you could go and enter a room with nothing really and come out with a song or two or three. And this was going on, and we were just we were Lennon and McCartney all of a sudden, and it was it was a very creative time. So all right,

now was. We got to a point where we were playing about half and half half of our own songs and half the blues that we had originally set out playing. And uh, I just thought, like, you know, if we want to be different and unique and have our own voice, we need to write when all the songs our set need to be our own songs. So we said about doing that and dropping the blues out of our set. Um. We could never drop a song called The Hunter, which is an Albert King's song, which is just so great.

I think the definitive version, thank you, you know, it's It's interesting actually when we played that song, we thought we were very close to the record. And years after a year went by us something, we've been playing The Hunter and I put the original back on. It were so different from it. I couldn't believe it. Because you just play at night after night, it becomes your own song,

you know, And you played that slightly differently. So anyway, we had a full set of all our own material, but we could not drop The Hunter with we could not get off the stage in Sunderland, and I did you not you could not leave the stage until you've done the Hunter. They would have torn the place apart, and so I said, man, we've got to come up with a song that's at least as good as the Hunter.

We still haven't dropped it actually, to be honest, um, and so I said, it could be something very simple, very something that the audience can sing like like like oh right now. And I said, actually, give me a talk. That's it, and did the cause and that was that was the chorus. Okay, so you came up with it. You said, it's gonna be something like all right now. And it was started right there, right there, right there.

And then Andy took that home and and worked out the verse chords, which was which of course our dad dodact. So he gave that to me and I he said, So I worked backwards from the chorus. Whatever the verse was going to be, it had to climax with it's all right now? So what was going to happen? And I thought of a scenario, and I actually Ringle Star had said, I'd read an interview basically the Beatles. Well, you know, whenever a boy meets a girl, it's a

it's a brand new story. You know, every love affair, he's a brand new story because two people come together and they have their own story and you know, and it means something to everybody. I thought, well, that's a good theme for a song. Boy meets girl, what happens? Okay? And that's the song just flowed out there she stood in the street. What was she doing? And well she was smiling from her head to her feet. Oh that's good.

I said, Hey, what's this? Maybe she needs season, needs a kiss and all that, and it just like flowed out. And I was writing this. When I had finished. I was in my my little flat in London and I was finishing up when the when I hit a beep outside, b baby, come on, let's go, and they picked me up to go over the show and I had the lyrics. So we did it that night and we used to do uh to forty five minutes sets. In those that we'd played forty five minutes, take a break, and then

do another forty five minutes. Well, when we first started, when we kicked off that evening, um we played we opened with all right now and it went down to storm. There was only like about fifteen people in the crowd, but they all went nuts for it right. So three hours later, by the time we come to the second set of forty five, I said, and it was full by that time. I said, it's request time, and anybody got new requests. And these fifteen people play that first

song you started with. So I knew we had something special right then. Okay, But cost Off was not one of the writers from the beginning. Did he have that definitive guitar part? Oh, well, it's his sound, definitely his sound, the les Paul through the marshal, the fifty eight les Paul through the start. When you and Andy were writing it, did you envision that? Well, that's that's what we were doing. That was um, Andy and I how can I put

it after? Think back? Actually? But costs a cost as a way of playing the A code, and he had such strong, long fingers. He could hit the um on the fifth threat they could get an extra double A out of it. He could hit the eastring on the fifth threat and give himself an extra A. That's what gives a lot of low end and plus the the his guitar. You know it had the sound. Okay, So how long after you write it do you re ord it? Oh? I don't think it would have been very long. I

don't know. Okay, you finished recording it. Do you know it's a monster hit or we don't know it's a monster hit. We feel it's a good live song and it's what I was looking for. In terms of The Hunter, it was. It matched the Hunter still not I mean still the Hunter is still a great, great song, but it was up there and it had the big plus of being having the audience participation aspect of it, which was good. Um, when when do we recorded? We recorded

it downstairs in Basing Street. Chris Blackwell Alan Records had bought a church by then and downstairs there was what we called the crypt. The cat crept into the crypt, crapped and crept out again what we used to say. We were down there and we recorded. Uh and um. We recorded in the small, small studio downstairs as we were doing a lot of shows then, so we were very much alive band and everything we wanted to play, even recording wise, we had to be able to reproduce

on stage. So everything was very very simple. Wasn't a lot of production, was no big strings on it or extra piano or anything like that. It was gonna be the four guys playing it. So it had to be something that we could but you could listen to on the record and we could walk out on stage and play it just like that. Although we did we did actually double track the the guitar part. I'm sure we probably did underneath the soul particularly, but we used to

just wing that on stage. Okay, But you recorded, you say, oh, this is a great live track. You don't see it as a big radio track, you don't see it as a big hit. Well, we didn't think in those terms. Uh, I mean no, we didn't really think in those terms. Actually no, and then it becomes a big hit. So what do you think? Because through your mind when it becomes the biggest track of the summer nineteen seventy, it

was incredible. It really was incredible. Actually, you you sort of walked on air, you know, we'd actually done it without even um knowing what we were doing. Actually, yeah, how do you follow that? I don't know. We we we wanted to release The Steeler. Actually mentioned The Steeler earlier. That was our follow up tour right now in our minds, because all of the band partook in the songwriting of

that and we just felt strongly about it. But Chris Blackwell wanted to release right on Pony which is still a good track, I think, um. But we wanted to release the Steeler, and the Steeler was released, but it did not do as well. It didn't it didn't rock the streets the way. All right, now, let's go back to all right. Now, you're a co writer. It's an iconic song almost fifty years old. Did you get paid on it? Oh? Yes, yes we did. I mean we were.

We actually signed away our publishing rights, a lot of them to Island Records. We were very, very green. I was so green. I remember when I signed a contract. I said it said one it said something or other than it said one thousand ninety eight, And I went, is that how much I owe you? Guys? They went, no, that's the date. That's that's how I contracts, you know. So we we did sign it pretty much away. But we're not complaining. No, but if it's late deep, do

you still get paid on all right? Now? We still get paid, Yeah, but it's not it's not it's not what you would call um industry industry level, that's what it is. Okay. Now, shortly after the hit, the BM breaks up. Yes, yes, sadly. What was going on there? Well, we were so I've thought about it a lot. And we were so tight was we We were We lived together, we ate, slept in and drank. Really the band and everything was to do with the band, and well, I

just think it got very very intense. I think we felt we owned each other to some extent, and I I kind of needed to get away from the band and find out who I was and defined myself because I was such a member of the band. I wanted to find out where the band stopped and I began, or I began in the band stopped. If like, we were just so like this one thing, and we had our we had Andy and I had our differences about commerciality.

That that was one of the things that I I I'm still I still shy away from um flat out commerciality. You know. I think if it happens to be commercial, all all to the good, but only incidentally. The thing about it is is that it has to have sort of I don't know it's under how to define what credibility is, but it needs to have that feeling of credibility. And we got a lot of the that, really that feeling from the blues. Fun enough, because the blues were

the blues people are playing. The early blues guys were people that lived the life and they expressed their life through their music, and I think it has to For me, it had to have that element, and we were perhaps I felt that we were getting away from that at this late date. How do you feel about credibility the same way? Actually, So if someone wants to use the song you've written for a commercial, you say, what, well, it depends. I mean I know that all right now

was used on a foot order advertisement. So that and what what it was was that now you use this foot part of your foot don't smell, and it's there's the song. I phoned Black all up and I said, you've got to take that off right now because that has no credibility whatsoever. Did he Yeah, he did, in fairness to him, they did. It came right off there. And so that's the sort of thing. You know, you you have to protect it to some extent. So it's not just doing everything as much as you can it, sir.

It's not always easy to get things that you don't like your music being used in stopped if you don't have full control, right, Okay, So then the band gets back together. What's thinking is going on there. Well, you know, we were all doing our different things to minimal success actually, to be honest, and Costs was getting into a state

we felt. I mean we've heard that. You know. He'd moved apartments and he was living in a place in in Portobello Road, which was at the time notorious for the drug scene that there was there, you know, a lot of it. And there's people knocking on his door, you know, and I said, hey, man, try this, try why don't you try this? And he was experimenting with a lot of stuff and that was his downfall, I think, and with the fact that the band had split up,

it became a crutch. This is what you know, amateur psychology. And he got into a bad state with it. You know. He did an album with cost of Kirk, Tetsu and Rabbit, which they are great musicians, all of them, and they did some good stuff, but he got into bad shape. When I went down there, I visited them in the studio and he fell asleep during during a solo. I'm like, God, what's going on? Man? And so really and Andy actually

came to my session I was doing. I had a band called Peace during this time, because that's what I wanted a bit of peace, I think, and he said, look, you know, courses in such a bad way. Shall we put the band together and get around him? And I went straight away, I said let's do it. So we got back together and we tried, but you know, he was gripped with with the stuff that he was taking. You. We'd we'd we'd go to somewhere where like Newcastle City Hall.

We always had gone down there. I mean, it's just amazing crowd and you'd look around. We'd go and we'd walk on stage. I'd look around and I'd see him like looking for the switch on his amp and not being able to focus where it was, and I thought, oh dear, we're in for a night here. And then he finally found it and it was just an audience

was but very sympathetic. They were beautiful, the crowd. They were like, come on course, you can do it, but really, um, he'd taken something I don't know, some kind of down here, and it was, you know, it was sad. It was very sad. We were all very sad, and so eventually we we had to move on. It's unfortunate too that in those days there was not the psychological help that there is now for people with addictions, and we didn't know what to do. We didn't know what to do.

I think Andy kidnapped him out of his house one day, and he was completely ir because he tried to get him off this stuff and away from the crowd he was running with at the time. Um, but I could have got arrested for that, I suppose, of course, was not very pleased she kidnapped me out of my house. Um but uh yeah, So eventually we had to leave it and move on, you know. And how did free ended? Free end just by itself? Or you already had bad company cooking in the back? Oh no, I didn't. I

didn't have a bad company cooking in the background. I um no, I would. I was. I wanted to see costs right, But I didn't know what to do about him, or with him or for him. We tried, we put the band back together around him, and we did a we sort of limped through a tour and it just wasn't it wasn't working, you know, we couldn't get him off this stuff. Um. I had met mc ralph's when I was touring together with Matt the Hoople. I had a band called peace. This is the piece I was

telling you about just now. It was just a three, three man outfit. And that's when I hooked up with Mick. We sat in the band room and he played me Can't Get Enough of Your Love and I said, wow, man, that is a hit, you know, he said, I said, are you going to do that with Mott? The hoople goes no, they're not really interested and he and don't want to sing that. I said, well, you know, aucing it, give it to me. And so that was the start

of our sort of interest in each other. I guess for songwriting and I played him I don't know, rock steady or something, and and we we found a very common We had a lot in common musically, you know, songwriting wise, and influence wise and what we wanted to do. And yeah, so that's we hooked up. Okay, so you hook up? How do you hook up with Peter Grant? Well? Um, I we I looked around and we had this great band and okay, so how do you flesh out the

rest of the band? Oh? Well, I called Kirky up and I knew that he would love to play with making myself because he's he's always said said you know, let me know what you're doing. And then we auditioned a lot of bass players and a lot of base players. I mean we must have auditioned about twelve until we found Bosh. And when I loved bars because when um who's no longer with us, no, no, no, when he played when I played bad the song Bad Company on the piano, he was very very lyrical on the base

he did. It wasn't a dump the dump. It was very he sang on the base, you know. And he had been a singer, so he understood melody and but he was based player and he brought that melody melodic field to the base and it was really good at Doo Doo Doo doo Doobe you know a company and it was just very moody, and it was the song is very much a mood song. It's a very few cars in it, but it's a it's a mood song that sets the mood and then has impact that grabs

you you know. Uh yeah, he's good based on them and that's that was the band. How you hook up with Peter Graham? Right? Well, I had I knew a guy called Peter Grant, he sorry called Clive Coolson, who had worked with Zeppelin led Zeppelin and with Peter Grant, and he came around to my cottage and and he said, you know, you should call Peter up. And I said, oh, yeah, yeah, And now I said, no, really you should, because he's told me he's interested, so you should call him up.

And he said, I want a job too, so call him up. So I called. I called Peter up, and uh, it was great. Actually, he said. I said, you know, Clive asked me to call you and you said you were interested in He said, yeah, I'm interested in you. And I said, well, I come with a band, Peter, and we're going to call it bad Company. He goes, bad Company. You're gonna call it that? Well, I said, yeah, we are, because Mick and I had already you know, led out down as in Stone. It was set that

down in Stone because we were looking for names. We we we'd call each other up and say, how about the four millionaire bubbles? No I don't think so, and all the silly names. And then I called him up one day and I said, I said, he said, well, I'll make it. I went bad Company and he went that. The legend was it came from the movie the same I did. Well, I saw the I saw an advertisement for the movie and I thought, oh, that just I love that. I'm going to write a song right now,

and it's got one into it. And actually Simon came with. Simon came around a little bit later and helped me with a few of the lyrics and uh, and it was just such a mood. So I called me and we were in this period of like, what we're going to call the man? I said, and there was a scrabbling noise on the end of the line. He said, that's cool. Man. I dropped the phone and uh, you know, he was so excited to drop the phone. So yeah, and that was that was set in stone for But

we did. We did come up against I mean, this is this has happened before, record companies and managers and people wanting to change the name. I mean, with Free they wanted to call us the heavy metal kids, and you just hated that. Of course, talk about like credibility. No, no, it's just not there. But anyway, we did have a similar problem with with the name Bad Company because Peter thought it was uh, just too heavy, you know, but I said, no, it's not man. People will love it.

It's good and it gives an identity and stuff, and so we uh, we stuck with They actually their record company wanted to release that as the first single, but I really loved Cantor Enough mixed songs. My favorite track and that was a you Chip my favorite track us Bad Company. The sound the way you described it, it's exactly the way it starts quietly that it built. It gets you in your soul in a way that music doesn't.

Today you're listening to my conversation with legendary rock musician Wall Rock, recorded live to the tune In studios in Venice, California. I hope you're enjoying listening to this episode of the Bob left Sex Podcast. If you want to see my guests as they joined me, visit at tune in on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Now more of my conversation with Paul Rodgers on The Bob left Sex Podcast. So you make a deal. How do you end up on Swan Song Records? Well

that was because which was led up. Yeah. Led Zeppelin had come to a point in their career where they wanted to have their own record company, their own company, Yeah, and to nurture talent, which was really great of them, I thought, and um, we we were just in the right place at the right time because Peter wanted to manage us when he came around. When he came to the first rehearsal, we thought he hadn't turned up. Actually we were playing away and stuff. This is before we

had bos. We had a bass player from from Wales. It was a really good bass player. I actually offered him the job, but he didn't want to do it. I said, well, what he's turned up for, you know, audition for but anyway, you know, but he was a good base player. But anyway, but he was the guy that was there outside the rehearsal room. We rehearsed in a little village hall in Albrey and in Surrey, and Peter,

Peter had sat outside and listened through the doors. A lot of that goes on, doesn't it, come to think of it, because that's certainly an unmissable guy in person, right. So he so he sat outside and then he came in at the end of the rehearsal and we're like, well, you're a bit late. We've you've you've missed us, mate, Well, he said, no, I've hearned you. I listened and listened outside the nom and then it's good. I like it.

You all that? You know? So um, he said to me, He said, look, I don't know about contracts and all that. I don't really want to do a contract first. Initially, you don't know me, I don't know you guys. So we're going to just work together on a handshake. And I thought about that for a second, and I just went, let's do it, you know. And so there wasn't a contract until a little bit. I don't even know how long later, maybe a year. Um. And he took how much? Oh?

Now he was he came from wrestling. Did he know anything about music? Uh, I don't know that he did really. Actually no, maybe he didn't, but he sure know how to take care of the musicians. Well that's a question I had next. So he was known as an artist advocate. Yes, Ultimately financially was he Was it beneficial for you or did he take too much money? It was fantastic for us. I mean it was unbelievable because we went from a small rehearsal room to doing stadiums in America overnight. Almost

it seemed. It was absolutely be fantastic and the organization behind that was superb. Because we flew in a Vickers Viscount four les Royce engine. All the seats have been taken out and been refurbished. This was what Zeppelin used, so we got what they used very much, you know. And there was limousines and the time whipp us to the gig, whip us back to the from the gig, and we were taking off going to the next show before the audience had left was Elvis has left the building,

you know. But when it's all said and done, how did it work out financially? Oh? Pretty good. The only reason you ask is one the time and two if you put on your business hat. If it's on their own label and it's distributed by Atlantic, they would take an extra cut. That wouldn't have happened that you were signed directly to Atlantic. That's true, but then again we would not have had that personal touch. But he would not have had that success. Okay, so he says, i'll

do it, I'll do it on a handshake. What's the next step, Uh, huge success. We've got not a little it slow. You're making that first album, so you have Well what happened was Peter called me. We were in rehearsal and he said, you know, um U led Zeppelin have got a house set up in Headley Grange and that's where they record that they're set to do their next album, and there's a mobile studio outside. It was

Ronnie Lane's mobile studio. It's the twenty phone track and they're delayed and the whole thing is set up there, just sitting there doing nothing. If you guys want to go in now, you can put a couple of tracks down. You've got like ten days. We were like yeah, because we were just bursting at the seams to put all this music down. And so it's out in the country, no distractions, lockout as only as there. You drive up, you get out of your car. There's no problem parking.

You know. It's in the country. And everybody had their own room, and we all cooked for each other, our wives at the time, and somebody got up. We made we made the wood fire us in the place and all that and it was very organic, very very you know, hippie heaven if you like. So we're all in there in a bunch and we just put everything we had down. How did you decide who to work with they. Ron Nevison was brought forward by Zepp by Zapp. They recommended

him and he was very good. And then okay, how many of the songs were written when you went to Headley Grenge Oh h most of them. I hadn't quite finished rock Steady. We actually I actually taught them, uh, rock steady while we were recording it, because I had the guitar. Turn on your lights there with me and rock steady bomb actually because Simon didn't even get that.

You know is you'll hear a mistake on that, but we we let it run because um sometimes mistakes have a kind of charm to them, you know about That's one of the problems with today's music, but they can make it so perfectly used the soul. What's the back what's the backstory on Seagull? Well, Seagull I went to I drove out with my family, my wife at the time, and was it my kids, I don't think I had

kids by then. No, and some friends with an acoustic guitar and we were going to Portsmouth and we pulled off at Hailing Island as an island, and we sat on the beach. I had the guitar and went to get fish and chips, and I watched the seagulls and you could just look at the horizon and the song just came to me like that, and I played. I

didn't finish it. Then I played it to make played what I had of it to make and he uh, he came up with now you Fly through the Guy Reever asking why Yeah, the middle eight, which really made the song, and it it nearly didn't make it on the album because it us it's an acoustic song and we weren't really going to be known for for acoustic things. But I thought, well, you know, it's different, and you know, I actually led Zeppelin did a lot of a bunch

of acoustic songs. They did an acoustic set in the middle, which I was always impressed with because it gave you light and shade, and it gave you, uh, it wasn't wall to wall dad, dad dadad. It was you know, some something different which when you would which made the heaviest stuff sound heavier when you went back to it. So I thought it was a nice contrast. And I played all the instruments on that song instant. They played the bass and the tambourine and whatever else. Is on

there and just captured again. It's a mood song. You know, you have to be sitting on a beach watching the misty horizon. The great thing is, you know, is when you hear it, it takes you to the beach. It takes you to that environment. That's what's great. That's why it's such a great song. Wow wow, Okay, so the album comes out from the perspective of being in America. It's an instant hit. Yeah, yeah, I mean it took

us by surprise, it really. It was a complete whirlwind and all of a sudden with the with the led Zeppelin machinery, if you like, behind us, the airplanes and the limos, and the security and and everything, and all the places to stay there houses and Malibu Beach and all those kinds of um. We it was a whirlwind. And at the end of it, when we got back, we all sat down. I looked at me, What just happened? Man?

What did we do? How did we do that? You know, because it was it was just a thing that evolved for us. It was just natural. But the second album was bigger straight shooter than the first album. Yeah. Well, to some extent, we tried to recreate. We looked at it said, well, we were were in a lockout situation. We're in the country, there was no distractions, so let's find a castle or something. So we found a castle or something, right, and that's what we did. And this

castle was clear world cast. It was interesting in that they also had um they had medieval dinners there in another part of the castle because the big place and they're the studio in one second, and I used to have to go into and all these there's big parties and all these people got dressed up in the old English costumes and armor suits of armorslf and and it roast pig and it chuck sided down them and I used to have to go in and find bos boss,

where are you? And if you're under a table somewhere knocking back the the booze and the roast big or dancing on it. It depended really, And I suppose we need you in the studio, come on now. And that was one aspect of it wasn't exactly as private as the Headly Grange one. Now, but the second the second album, did you write those songs on the road or when you got back? Some of them are on the road

Shooting Star. I feel like making um actually feel like making love was a song that I had started in nineteen sixty eight, which is way before that when we first came out with with Free Uh, and I hooked up with a bunch of a bunch of beautiful people that were called we like to call ourselves hippies in those days, and we hitch hiked out to Rheon Needle, which is north of San Francisco, I believe, and we went out there and slept in the woods and stuff,

and I I had written that song. I started that song that baby when I Think About You, and we there was a lot of peyalty about thoses, which was which is not the chemical one, and it was really it was a really quiet thing and not that I'm recommending it, but that's what we were doing. And I when we came to the the album there I makes it. What have you got And I said, well, I've got this idea of baby when I think about you, I think about and I said, oh yeah, I like that,

yeah going, Yeah, you're going. He said, oh, what you need is this, baba, and I went, when I feel like making It's okay, that's good, we'll do that. And then we missed moved on, you know, and it became one of our biggest songs, but you don't know at the time, it just was like, Okay, that's good, Yeah, we'll do that. Last spring, I was on a cruise to Alaska and we went to the karaoke room and I pulled off this midnight I feel Like making Love and me and the two forty something girls were singing

at the top of our lungs. It's funny how that resonated. I think that was think the interesting thing about bad companies. It was both men and women. It wasn't like Rush, which was been only women were certainly in the amor too. Yes, good good, well, I mean we like to please, okay, And then what's the backstory? I'm shooting star? Well, shooting star um was. I was at my cottage in England and I was walking down the garden and actually I've

been thinking that. I went, well, HENDRICKX has died and we lost cost and me as many people and Jim Morrison and um uh help me, um what's her name again? Janis Josh Janis Joplin. You know, I know those people are like, wow, it's not a war zone. This is entertainment. Why are we? Why are so many people? So that was what my thoughts had been. And I was walking down my own garden, pat and I thought, don't you know? And I thought, oh, where have I heard that before?

That you are is shooting Star? And I thought, wow, I must have heard that on the radio. And then I thought, well, I don't remember where. And I ran in the college and got the guitar and started to work the cords out. And I actually finished it on an airplane in with the boys when we were somewhere or that in America. Yeah, So it started life thinking about all the casualties of rock. Well, it's interesting because that's a gargantuan album, but there and a couple of

albums after. There's some songs that I sing to myself all the time. Some people say I'm no good late in my bed all day. Yeah, it's a mixed song. I love that, you know, But the nighttime comes, I'm ready to rock and roll my toes away. I mean that's how I feel, you know. I feel like, uh,

kind of like Yogi beer. I may sleep till noon, but before it starts, I'll get a you picnic basket and that's in Jellystone Park, and then another mixed song, simple Man, which is just one of my absolute favorites. You know, I think about that because music is about freedom and I want to be free. But then you do Rough Diamonds and it's kind of going in the wrong direction. It's kind of getting defleated. Okay, Yeah, yeah, yeah I did. We did run out of steam a

little bit. Uh who are you gonna blame? I don't know. I could point fingers, but I'm not going to. Really. We we had been hammering it for a number of years and I think we did. It was just it all got a little bit tired and a little bit we lost focus. I do think now, did you actually break up before Desolation Angels? Or the the album was so on together. I just felt, wow, you know, I wanted to leave throughout the album actually, but Rough Yeah,

I was committed. We were doing it. We were there, let's do what we can, and um, I think in my mind I had left already. Actually, yeah, And how do you come to do Desolation Angels, which is just an unbelievable comeback with a different sound but with actually songs of stick in your head from start to finish. Um, you've got me now, I don't remember. Well, you know, so in anything, that's a completely different sound from what

came before. How did that happen? I'd have to get you know what, I've lost track of the sequence of the album. Well, you know there's there's electric Land, no no, if there's Lonely for Your Love. Uh, there's yeah on one of them. Um, Um, Cindy this can I talk to Cindy? We can take a break? Yes, let's everybody. Yeah, that's a good idea. Well pause here for a brief

moment and get right back to Paul Rock. Most of you know that I'm also a writer, but for those who think I'm just the host of this podcast, you can check out my archive at left sets dot com in addition of reading my commentary on music tech in the world at large. You'll be the first to find out when we've published a new conversation now More with legendary rock musician Paul Rodgers, recorded at the tune In

Studios in Venice, California. Okay, you're coming back to us after a break where we had to go to the discography. You know, at first I thought that Paul was a little lost, which is always funny that fans are more accurate than the act. But I was also at fault here and that I had the order wrong. I'm playing. I'm such a bad Bad Company fan that, for some reason doing research last night, stuck in my head that Rough Diamonds was before Desolation Angels. But let's just recap.

So after Burning Sky, which certainly has some great tracks on it, but doesn't get as good reviews or have as much success as Run with the Pack and Straight Shooter, you do Desolation Angels. But Desolation Angels two years later, as opposed to an album every year, has a completely different sound from what came before. Yeah, yeah, you know, actually, Bob, you know, it is true that some of the fans know more about me than I don't. You know. Um

Lucy Pillar, for instance, knows more. She goes further back than I do. It's incredible. Um so, but but a Desolation Angel, actually, let's go to a Burning Sky, Burning Sky. We were a little burned around the edges on that one, actually,

but we did pull it out of the bag. But I remember saying to make that, sending to make that you know, if we if we make this album and we don't like it, We're not going to put it out, and he said, yes, yes, yes, but the wheels were rolling and it went out, and you know, it's not it's a good album. I think the track Burning Sky

is pretty strong, absolutely. I wrote that the night before we recorded it, and we were scrabbling for me for songs actually, you know, and I had the chorus and I had the verse chords, and I showed the the the the guys the the guy is burning and I showed him the verse cause and we went. We pushed the red button and I made the whole thing up right there on the spot, pretty much waiting for the events here and the prisoners and all that the story right there, so you know, we were it was sort

of a jam, but it was. It was pretty strong, I thought, But well, but there's one other track on that though. It was also the guitar sound in your delivery. Leaving You was a great track, deadly, wasn't it. Yeah? Okay, So how did you decide? Why were there two years between Burning Sky and Desolation Angels? We were we did need a rake, but I did think that we would. We were energized again for Desolation Angels at Rock and roll Fantasy, Gone Gone Gone was Boz's first attempt at songwriting.

But it was actually good. It was great. I mean I I like to include it in a set now. And Crazy Circles was was Well who wrote the guitar part on that, which makes it that the guitar part like the acoustic guitar and the solo that was Mick. It was lovely, wasn't it right? Well, you were talking about acoustic on Seagull I wondered if you wrote that. Well,

I played acoustic on Crazy Circles. The acoustic rhythm you know, don't don't don't, but the the Spanish type of solo thing that goes on there, that was Mick and it was just beautiful. I remember he just went out to the into the studio and got his sound and just went into that and I just was, yes, that is so beautiful. Nice one man. But the other thing is, even though you did not write it, one of your best vocals of all time is the opening track on

the second side, Lonely for Your Love. Oh let's Mike, Yeah. Yeah. But the way you have a way of digging down deep in your soul and pushing right up the limit without going over and we live in an era of vocal history onics. That's what all these TV shows are about, the malise of the Mariah Carey. But you have a way of emoting where there's still emotion, which the same as emoting underneath and just pushing it, which is the essence of rock and roll. That's why I'm talking about

simple Man earlier. You want to feel free, you know, and the lyrics on Lonely for Your Love, the way you're saying it just blows my mind. Well, that's very interesting that you should notice that, because that's a really good point. Sam Moura has a way of doing that same thing. He puts a little gravel there, but not too much exactly, Samuel, Sam and Dave Yes, and it just takes you to where the emotion is just rasping, you know, it just it just exactly exactly gives you

that edge. I love that, right, Okay, So but then you do make not getting the order correct, I was wrong. You do make rough diamonds, which is seen by disappointment as there by everyone. Yeah, well, you know it's funny the title for that I I wanted to band, I wanted us to get back to our roots, and I organized a gig, a show at a village hall near where I lived, and we were just going to play what we wanted to a local crowd and that's it.

And I just wanted to do that. And I called it Rough Diamonds because I didn't want to say this as a bad company planning in the local village hall. It would have been insane, you know, So I just pretended we were a local band called Rough Diamonds, but they lifted We lifted that and used it for the album title. But but really they're not Rough Diamonds. They're they're kind of like it's a it is a little tired of some good good things. That is the album

with electrically which was but electric Land. Yes, I think, yeah, okay, So then how does the BM break up or go on hiatus? Well, you know, I think that, as I said earlier, I think I was driven. This is the album I was referring to when I we'd all got a little tired of each other, I think, and it was time to move on, and it was felt very strongly, but we did. We did all these tracks, and you know, we were committed to make an album. And I think

what that's what we did. Now after a short period of time, the band reforms with another lead singer, Brian Howe. What's your view point on that? I actually don't have one. You don't have a view? Well, that sounds like someone who's been through a lot of litigation. Yeah, would that be an act and I'm not gonna pull something out of it. Yes, you can certainly say no comment. Of course. You know, it turned into the manager they had is

no longer with us himself. He turned it into he managed a band called Giant and it actually had a completely different sound, but they did have a couple of hits, and then all to it. Ly, you reform, but much longer down the line, but next you end up working with Jimmy Page in the firm. Can I just say

this before we go on? Absolutely? Um, I do have something to say, and that is that I felt after I left it, the band's reputation for musical reputation went down the toilely and and and there the respect was gone, and I didn't like it. That's when I came back. I came back to re establish what we were and I think that's what we're doing now is re establishing the credibility again. You know, let's stay on this topic for one second. I saw you perform with Bad Company

almost two summers ago. You go out with Free Spirit, You're going out solo with Beck. When do you do bad Company gigs? And what is the thinking there? Um? I do? I sort of do about twenty or thirty shows a year because I try to keep I want to keep the energy, the enthusiasm and the the interest really for me and for for the band and the listeners. So I do different, different things whatever comes to me.

The Free Spirit thing, if you like, has evolved and we've evolved from doing it in England and then wanting to bring it here, so we made space for it in the itinerary to do the tour here with Jeff Beck, with Ann Wilson and Deborah Bonham. I should mention as well, she's opening and she's a beautiful singer. Um So what we I do bad do Bad Company shows? In between? When the offers come in, we we look at them

and we now mcgralph's health. What is the status of that, Uh, Mick is you know as well as can be expected for a guy who's had a stroke and he can't you know it's not really. He's still got his sense of humor, but he's having trouble with his right hand. I do believe it is uh. And we took him a small guitar so he could make some noise, some musical noise. It's it's not great though, it's not great where Okay, But let's go back to the narratives. You

end up working with Jimmy Page. How does that come together? Oh right, let's see how did that come together? I had a student when I left Bad Company. I had I put a studio together in my house in the attic in Kingston, not Kingston, Jamaica, Kingston and the UK, excuse me. And I was making I was recording and doing a solo album, etcetera, etcetera, and Jimmy Page popped over and I kept popping over. Actually come over a couple of times just to check me out and see

what you're doing. Hey, And were you friends with him since you had the same manager here. Absolutely, we'd all see each other in their office, and we Bad Company and led Zeppelin would go to each other's shows and stand backstage, you know, cat calling each other and rubbish,

you know, and stuff like that. But we're it's all friendly and uh we so Jimmy, Yeah, Jimmy came around and he brought this cassette because cassette in those days of music, and it was a beautiful piece of music and he said, can you write some lyrics to this? And I give it a go and it was. It turned out to be Midnight Moonlight Lady, which is a beautiful piece of music that that he created and added the lyrics on um And that was the start of

us working together and writing together. And then we got a call from the people that were running the Arms tour and they said, we need another act, if you like, for the American leg of the touring we're doing. And we heard that you and Jimmy were in the studio. Would you like to do a half hour spot? And I looked at Jimmy and and he I said, well we we what was it? Oh? No, They said, would you like to do a spot? And I said, well, we only have a like about twenty minutes half an

hour of music, that's all we need. And so we didn't have any excuses, so we went out. I said we didn't have a rhythm section either. Then we got your rhythm section, and so we went and we did that and that became the firm because Jimmy was m M mattel loos, and I do think he wouldn't mind me saying after after John had died, you know, they were all everybody was just so upset, and he hadn't

touched a guitar in a couple of years. When he came around to see me and um everybody around him and said, well, whatever you do, don't ask him to play the guitar, because that's a no, no, no, He's not going to touch the guitar. And I thought, oh, how am I gonna So he walked into the studio and said, hey, Jimmy, how are you doing? Did you bring your guitar? And everybody like digged under the table,

but you said it to taboo thing. But by the end of the evening he had restrung his guitar and was playing and we would and stuff, and it was wonderful to see him because I thought, you know, if guys depressed, what you need to do is play music, any music at all. And so we were just we were jamming by the end of the evening, and that's when afterwards he brought me that piece of music, and we did. We composed together Midnight Moonlight Lady, and went on from there and the end up the first album

comes out, there a couple of successful tracks. There's a radioactive and satisfaction guaranteed. And does it live up to your expectations and Jimmy's I don't think it did, really. I think I think no. I think we did what we could under the circumstances um were there. Music is No, I don't think it did, to be honest, But there was a second album. I think Jimmy played great though. Yeah, we tried. Yeah, we had Chris Laid on the drums, he's a great drummer, and Tony Franklin on bass, great

bass player. We were going to have Pino Palladino, but he he didn't. He didn't make it, He didn't do the tour in the end, so we settled on Tony Franklin because he'd done all the rehearsals with us and he knew all the songs. Um. So yeah, but and he and he thought why it didn't work? Um, I you know, I was a little burned at that point myself. I did not want to go on the road and that's why, that's why we met an agreement between us.

Jimmy said, let's go on tour. And I said, well, I don't know if I really want to have just come out of Bad Company, because I'm just burned and I just want to stay home and make music in my little studio here and regroup myself. But he said, well, but he really wanted to go, and I really wanted him to be happy, so I said, well, let's go. And he said, I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll do two albums and two tours supporting those albums, and that will be it. And there was again it was

a handshake, and that's what we did. That's that's as far as we took it. That's as far as it went. And had you end up working with Kenny Jones and the Law, Well, I was looking around for for the

next thing, you know, and I met I met. I met him in a club and we talked about music, and I said, you know, I never I never really know which which which direction I want to go into, whether I want to go into soul or blues or flat out rock, you know, because I do all of those things, and I'm interested in doing all of those things. But he said, he said, why don't you just the two of us get together and we'll we'll do a rock album, we'll do a blues album, we'll do a

soul album, and we'll do and all we'll do. You and I will be the center of it, and we'll just change other musicians around us, you know, we'll put a brass section in or this of that. And I thought, I want it's a good idea. I was trying to. So that's what that was the initial thing with with The Law. Now that had a title track which was the Hint, which of course for those were fans they think of Bad Company in the title track, and then

Laying down the Law and the band was called The Law. Yeah, I think to some extent I was trying to recreate what I've done with Bad Company, because um um Kenny said to me, how about a title for a song laying down the Law? And I went, I'll have it ready by Thursday, And I actually did because I give myself and Dad Da Dad Dan Da Da on the piano, and I thought, well, you know it were you know

it worked before. We maybe to have a theme tune around the name is good you know, so those of us at home saw it that way, that was the real way. It sort of was okay. So that that plays out, and then you go out with the remain remnants of Queen Queen and Paul Rogers. Were you a Queen fan? I loved the music. I can't say that I ever bought went out and bought their singles, their records, but I loved it when I heard it on the radio. I want to Break Free, you know. I mean, I

thought that the guitar plane was great. I thought Freddie was fantastic. I went in with a lot of respect for Freddy and I came out from that with a

ton of respect. He was such a great guy, such a great musician, and so many great songs he had written, and so many influences, and I think, you know, he was influenced by the right people in many ways, like a wreath of Franklin, you know, even says that on one of his life I think when you got the audience singing, you guys sound like a wreatha, you know. Um So that started out with let's see I was

asked by Chris Blackwell. Actually they were doing a TV show and they said, would you come on and we're gonna honor Chris Blackwell and would you finish the show with all right now? And the Queen or the rennents of Queen will be on there. So Brian called me and said, look, Brian may Uh, if you will be our singer for we will rock you and we are the champions, we will be your backing band for all right now. And I went, oh, Queen, my man, that

sounds good. So we actually we did that and it was it was great, and I didn't think we had much in common, but when we put those three songs together, they were in the same ballpark somehow. You know, we will rock you, we are the champions and all right now. It's just sort of out there in that arena space, you know. And I thought, well, you know maybe, And then he called me up and asked me would I like to do just two or three shows for fun? And I said, well, yeah, well let's do that. We

can do that. But it turned into like two world tours and the studio album. It's just the way things are, you know, you you you get involved, and it's you can't just walk away. So uh, it turned into I think four years and at the end of that four years, I was like, well, I this is not the rest of my life here with Queen blessed them. I love them to pieces, but I have to do my own things. So it was your decision to move on. Oh totally. Yeah. Yeah.

And they're still working now with the American idols. Well you've got to remember that before after Freddie, they didn't tour. They did an odd gig, they did Wembley. They did some great gigs, but not touring. They had David Boy with them, they had Michael Um Michael help me, Michael from One Band, Um, George Michael, George Michael, George Michael, thank you. And they had some great singative boy and

all these great singers. I thought George Michael was great on that as well, but they didn't and that Elton John too. There are a lot of things. But they and I got together with them and I showed them, look, hey, you've got all these these great songs, you've got this great organization behind you, a lot of fans. All you need is the right singer up front. I will do that and hopefully we can make it work. And we toured. So I told her I've taught them they could tour,

and they are now touring, So that's good. Okay, So what do you think of today's music scene? Uh? I think technology has gone on in leaps and bounds, but we're kind of in danger of overdoing it. And one thing that does not change is that it has to come from here, no matter what the technology is, that the technology is a bit of cat got on a on a broom, they've still got to come from here.

Or if it's a fantastic, you know, gizmo, a technological wonderment, you have to it has to come from here, whatever the instrument is. And we might be missing that a bit. We we might be getting into. We used to say that you can mix the balls right out of a track if you're not careful. You've got to keep that essence. You know, it's so perfect that it loses its essence. You've got to stop before you get that. I think you've got to keep You've got to keep the essence.

And you get that playing live. I think you get that imagining you playing live. But it's frustrating if you talk to superstars from your era, if you make new music, it's not like it used to be used to be everybody was aware it came out. Everybody was listening to the same radio stations, and you could make or break depending on the quality of the song. Whereas you can make a great song today and almost no one hears it. What's it like being on the creative end of that. Well,

you look around and and people. People have impact when they when they break and they Hendrix, for instance, when I saw Hendrix, I remember the DJ said, oh, we've got to young man for young band from America. It was Pete Murray. He was a DJ, young band here from America, and here they are Jimmy Hendrix. And he put his arm up like this, and then Jimmy Hendrix comes on with the hair with the hey Joe, where are you going with that gun in your hand? And then he picks his guitar up and plays it with

his teeth and it was just so wild. He put the guitar on, and when the camera cut back to Pete Murray, he still got his arm out announcing them like he hadn't stopped going like that. It was it was amazed and horrified, I think at the same time. But I mean the rest of us, just like we woke up the next day I went to school and Jimmy Hendricks was like it, um, but they there are certain people that have that sort of impact when it's real.

I think, you know, I don't know what what that what that means, exactly what that real is, but it's something that touches a nerve and it catches fire throughout the Have you heard that young band grettavan Fleet? Yes, I have. For those of who don't know, uh, certainly the tracks have been released so far are very Zeppelin like. What do you think of Greta van Fleet? I think

they're great, Actually I do. I do hear a lot of the influences from Zeppelin and perhaps even as you know, but it's also the good Well, it's interesting because people from our era were influenced by blues tracks from the thirties forties, which was only thirty or forty years after the renaissance of rock in the UK late sixties early seventies, where it's already been almost fifty years since that sound,

so it's ready for that sound to come back. Yeah. Well, I mean I still I can put Holland Wolf on playing Backdoor Man and still get a real kick out of it. I still get you try. I don't know who's drumming on that, but it's just the laziest, coolest drums you ever heard. Do you still play music at home? Yes, I do. I play blues, I play some classical. I like Holtz Planet Sweet I love of that. Actually I play.

I like to collect a bit of vinyl nowadays. I still listened to oldest reading Um and I still listened to Junior Wells. So the stuff you're collecting is not is, you know, the old blue stuff, not the big hit stuff on vinyl. No, actually it's not. Very very few of very little actually hits me hard like it did in the past, like when I first heard by With Help from my Friends by Joe Cocker, you know, back

in the day. I mean those songs, the songs that hit me then Midnight Hour by Will They still they give you a tingle in the back of your neck. Well they still do that for me, and it's very hard for me to find that with new stuff. I'm sorry, but it is. No. I mean I feel the same way. You know, there's a lot of people who want to appear young, so they say today's music as good as it was. I mean, the people don't understand it was

music was all we had. We were addicted to the radio, and growing up in the UK grow up in the United States, it's not exactly identical, but we were addicted to the radio, especially after the Beatles came out. Before that, we were listening to sports in the four seasons, and it was everything. And when the band made a statement, whether it be musical or sociological, you really paid attention.

Whereas now you talk about credibility. So many acts today are seeing the end goal of fame and riches as opposed to the music itself. I think that's true. I think that's possibly quite true. Yeah. To me, like the fame and fortune, the show based aspect of it was never really it at all. And I think I probably got that from listening to those black guys because they were just telling their story. They weren't seeking fame, seeking fortune or any of it. Um the guitar ships, swinging

pools or any of that. They were. They were just doing their thing and and as it happened, people like me I loved it, you know, And so also back in the rock here are sixty four to eighty or so or certainly empty. Vira, you mentioned Joe Cocker. You mentioned notice reading anybody else? Any other records to stand out? Oh yeah, there'll be so many. Have to think of for a minute, though, Um there are let's see, well, the Temptations, the Four Tops, you know, I mentioned that one.

What you ever? What do you ever think of the Stones? Cover of being too proud to beg It's all right, I mean they were good. One of the great things about the Stones is they Yeah, they did these Arms of Mine as well, but uh, well they're going to They introduced me to a lot of music that you know,

Soloman Burke, I'm so glad to be here tonight. Now, so I'm glad to be home, and I believe that I've got a message for every man and every woman here tonight that seven needed someone to love, someone to stay with all the time when you help, but when you're down. I love all that, you know. So they introduced me to a lot of uh, a lot of quite obscure blues. Actually, you know, Um, it might be one o'clock and it might be three time, don't mean that much to me. I've got my plans. I don't

know about you. I'll tell you exactly what I'm gonna do, get in the group and let the good time rule. I mean, that's a great, great sound, great lyrics, your rendition right there. We should print that on Spotify right now. I thank you. They they well, you're saying it in such a soulful way. But it was sort of votes. I mean, it wasn't full belting, but but it's an example of lyrics that just flow. You know, they're not forced. You know, what should I do next day? Just somebody

is there and it just like it came out. That's Those are the kind of lyrics. Do you have any tricks you used to make sure that you get what you want down? Oh? True? As far as song right now, you've got to You've got to listen to If somebody gives me a piece of music to write songs on, I say, I go, uh, what is this music saying? What can I What do I hear it saying to me? And I try to get in tune with the music, but lyrically, you know, so that you can express what

the music seems to be saying to you. I might be wrong and I might be right. Might be one o'clock and it might be three, you know, but you kind of get in tune with what do you think it's what it's saying to you. Okay, So at this late date, you're still standing, you can still sing, You've had gargantuan success with multiple acts. What's left for you to accomplish? Well, the next two is the uppermost in

my mind. I've done some I've just done some some bad company shows with Leonard Skinner and it were just amazing. Leonard Skinner's last to Yes, Yes, theoretically. I mean, I don't know if one can ever really retire, you know, I think you never get too far away from I've tried to, you know, sit back at least, but I just couldn't. I mean, things happen, you know, things evolved. How much of it is the energy from the crowd that you miss? Well, the energy from the crowd was

just fantastic. It's a crackling electricity. You know. It's just one thing to listen to, like sift with with Leonard skin It is one thing to listen to simple Man. They're simple man. They have a simple man, of course, and it's a good thing to listen to the record. But it's quite another to sit under the stars with thirty thousand other people and hear those opening cards and know that it's coming, you know, under the moonlight, it is just magical, and the actual air there just crackles.

There's a lot of soul in the atmosphere, and I think that's what people love about live concerts. It's a coming together at a meeting of the tribe, and uh a focal point instead of a campfire, it's the lights of the stage. So this point his live superseded recording for you. Oh, it's a good question. Recording is still important to me though. I mean, I do like to make a good record, but I I love playing live. Yeah. Probably probably it has, Maybe it has. So what have

you not accomplished that you still want to accomplish? If anything, I'm still learning, I really am. And I love to put you know, a set of music. I love what I'm doing, taking Bad Company, looking at all the catalog and making a show that works cohesively and starts and moves through and keeps your attention right the way through, so that at the end of it you've been on

a magic carpet ride and you're happy. And I want us to do the same thing with Free Spirit, you know, which we were doing in the States in the UK, and we do here. But I also will add some bad Company material in with the Free Spirit, because I think people expect me to do that. They'll be disappointed. They don't get feel like making love and conciden for that. Unfortunately, that's true. You don't want it to be that way. But people don't get the memo. Well, you know, they

they paid their money. That takes the choice. I mean, I think they have a right to expect. You know, if you go see a shore, you have a right to expect a certain amount. You know. I don't think you can stand too much on your your musical inteket or whatever it might be that you I'm not going to play this because because everybody wants it, you know. I like to see a happy crowd. I'd love to

see that. So when you're singing those hits which you sung so many times before, are you thinking about doing your laundry and where you get to the hotel on the right time or are you still present? Yeah? I'm very much present. You know, you have to be present. Uh. And that's one of the things about live it is it's it's live and you are there. You get one shot at it. You know, you get the one shot. So you I and I'm listening to the guitar player and listening to the drums. We all are aware of

each other. We're speaking to each other musically and then to the crowd. So we're all in this together. It's like a great unity. It's a great sense of unity unity playing music, and so you you're leaning on each other and you're depending on each other, and you don't want to let each other down by by not being focused. Now with this late deep if you were walking, ironically without the internet, if you were walking through an airport, or you in town at the height of the success

of Bad Company, you were recognized by everybody. And what's it like walking the street today? Uh, it's pretty good, you know. I don't get bothered too much at all. Really, I don't think people are people know me in the supermarket or anything like that. I mean they know me in my hometown. Oh you've been you know. But is that a good thing or a bad thing for you? Well, a bit of it's nice. It's lovely to be recognized and just people to be excited. Yeah, it's it's it's

a nice thing. But I can understand, you know, I mean I when I it with with with Queen, the other fans were absolutely nuts. Really, I've got to tell you you were nuts. And but they were lovely. But I mean, I I finished, I did my last show in Rio de Janeiro, and I said to Cynthia, were really, did janiro, Let's go and walk along the beach and we've done, We're finished, We're out of here. We'll go home tomorrow. So we thought we're a nice peaceful book.

And we walked outside and all these people just mobbed us, and I thought, what's happened? And they were like crazy, They just wanted oh, sign us, sign us, and that It was like a It was essentially any time that you're looking for that recognition, you can get it by going back to work with Queen or something like that. Oh, I don't know, I suppose so maybe I don't know.

It's not what it's about though to me. I mean, I like to meet people and be and be gracious if they if they love the music, that's what it's all about for me. It's not it's not of show biz fame. I'm not into that. And are your kids into music? They are actually I didn't really encourage them, but they were surrounded by it, and so they was writing songs on the piano when they were four years old.

You know, so uh and you know, you get Bill Wyman would pop around for a cup of tea, and they were incredibly unimpressed, you know, they they Yeah, they're great. I love my kids. I've got grandkids now, and I love them to pieces to you know. Okay, Well, we've been here with Paul Rodgers, vocalists extraordinaire from all the bands we just talked about, from Queen to Free and Bad Company and Jimmy Page in between. We have to do a whole nother session where we don't talk about you.

We just talked about music because there's a lot of insight here which is so fascinating to me. You know, the way the way you talked about the mood, etcetera.

A lot of people don't talk about because the creative process as opposed to you know, because specially when it comes to music, it's not something you can really learn what I'm trying to say, it's not you you can open a book and say A B. C. D. You have to go on your own journey, stumble on your own feelings, and you've obviously done that, and thanks so much for sharing your thoughts today. It's my pleasure both. Thanks for having me. Don't turn off your podcast player.

Stop really hold your fingers back at this moment, because after the podcast ended, Paul and I engage in a conversation about music and politics. I know you'd love to hear it here it is, but you know, on that, on that line, on what you were saying, that the the idea of mood. You know, if you want to write about missed in the trees in the full moon, you got to go and sit out in that and then you will get the feeling of it, and you'll

get the feeling into the music. And something that you would not occur to you technically like will occur to you emotionally. That will expo There's a couple of things there. In order to be creative, you have to live a life, which is hard when you're working so hard. Yeah, and the other things I find my best ideas come in the shower. It's like, when I'm doing nothing else, I will remember that and then I'll have to run to the computer whatever to write about it. But it's also

frustrating me. What I always found fascinating with bands from the seventies is, you know, okay, we did an album, we're going on the road, throught it. Now we have to write another album. Okay, we have to actually turn it on. I know. Well, you know, I said to him and earth again, I said, you know, you get your whole life to write the first album, and then you've got like a year between it. And he looked at me and said, what are you saying? I said, well,

that's what it is. You know, you're working towards your first album, your whole life, you know, and then all of a sudden it's successful, and you've got to think what did I do? And can I do it again? Naturally gets complicated. Well, the other thing is, you know, it's one thing to right on to me, and it's another thing that when you're writing that first album, you have the inspiration and you say, oh, yeah, you know you have all these times. Next time, I said, we

have two weeks I have to write ten songs. Yeah, It's like, how does one do that well with difficulty? I don't know, you know, I wish I had a pat answer, but there probably isn't one. Really okay. But one other things, You've written some iconic songs, and we covered this, but did you know they were iconic when you wrote any of them? You know, you feel that

this has got something. You do feel that little whisper that you know this has got something, and that that that isn't a lot of words saying this has got something, but you mean, I mean that special something. You kind of do know that on some level. I think I think you do. I remember, you know, we're talking about Al Cooper recently in the podcast, but you know he produced the first couple of Leonard Skinner albums, and after the first one came out before Freebird was even a hit.

This is summer seventy three. He's living in Atlanta and they call him and say, we got a new song we want to record. Can we come in on Monday. They come up and they record Sweet Home Alabama, which doesn't come out for a year. Okay, So I say, al, did you know it was hitting? Goes it was sweet

Old Alabama. It's like there's some stuffs in I guess to me when on some level there's the old Hollywood outage, no one knows anything, but sometimes you know when you hit in the leven you know, Yeah, you hit the sweet spot. There's a feeling right, goes right up your arms exactly, and you wish you could do that all the time, exactly, that sweet about it, right, exactly if you could do it every time. Of course, the old cliche is after you do it, you think you'll never

do it again, it will never happen. And then what it does, go, Oh, that fights in between. There's some kind of alignment of the stars happens as well, you know, there is. There's something cosmic, and we are we're all in touch with that all the time. I think it's it's just we we block it out. I don't know what it is. I don't know if I've been described in some way. You have to get you have to live. Something has to happen. I say, you cannot sit down

and do it. Yeah, you know. The interesting thing that I find is that you you have to be shooting for the moon to hit the moon. But you you see, if you're not shooting for the moon, you'll never hit it, right. But if you're shooting for it and you you you hit all the time, there will come a day when you hit it. But if you're not even trying, well, then you definitely won't. Well that goes to another thing. I mean you talk about you know, you moved to

London and the guys went back home. Yeah. People don't understand. It is so hard to make it, and when you're hungry, man, it gets really hard. And being all. The other thing is the longer you get down that path, you see other people going down a different path, And are you getting married, have houses and stuff like that and you're still hungry. I think you had success relatively soon. Yeah, I mean I did. It didn't seem soon. It seemed

like an eternity force. But looking back, it was a matter of months, you know, from from there to the the from meeting costs. It was a matter of months before boom, we were making records and zooming up. Uh. She was behind it. She she was oh you know what she did say? She said to me, you shouldn't let it get into your blood. Son. I said, Mom,

it's too late for that now. And then, of course, okay, I don't know if you know, remember this old manager David Krebs, Yeah, okay, he says that the music from that era we couldn't even make today. Like he managed Errol Smith. He said, he knows one of my favorite Errol Smith songs called Lord of the Thighs. Say, you

couldn't put that out to that, so it's interesting. And the other thing is, I'm sure you went on the road and had a good time, okay, whereas today with cell phone can it's not even the same experience life, isn't. I mean it changed the whole life experience. Uh. People can't can't get away from their pace. I don't have one. I'm think I'm the only person in the world without one. So you don't have a you have a you don't have a smart phone, or you don't have a phone

at all. Well I have one of these, right, You don't have a mobile phone? No, I don't. And you had one and gave it up, or you don't want to have it. Well I've had them for for the length of a tour, and then when they run out of money, I haven't renewed them, and so they've got become defunct something. At this point, I never talked on the phone. I mean, if somebody's calling me for a doctor's appointment, whatever, other than I won't talk on the phone.

And I have reasons for that, because usually people want something and it takes them a long time to get to what they want. Yes, oh, is it a beautiful day? What you mean, what is it you want? But I do find it good to have information at my fingertips, and I do like having songs. You know. You know your wife said, you're heavily into the political thing. I'm concerned for the world just as everybody else is, you know.

I mean I I one minute we're at each other's throats and it's almost a nuclear war, and next minute we're all pals. I mean it is literally next minute, the North Korean guy what's his name? I mean, just what a month ago they were talking about nuclear war like it was like, yeah, nuk war. Yeah. I mean even to discuss that a year ago was not not cool. But there's two, it's two. It's not a light subject at all at all. I mean, I worry for my grandkids,

actually mostly not for me. But well, do you feel that there's anything musicians can do. I think we can deliver a message of love, and that's what we can do strongly, and that's what we should be doing. Yeahs. Generally speaking, musicians are promoting a message of commerciality. Oh yeah, it isn't that sickening? Now? Is that amazing? Or what? Like I said on the podcast, I can remember specifically

on the Merritt Parkway hearing all right now. I remember skiing at Snowbird singing simple Man to myself, dancing around in my underwear, long before Risky Business with Live for the Music, Paul had amazing stories. I can't believe we talked to him. I hope you enjoyed it. Until next time, I'm bob left us make any reason. I don't know exactly why must be its out of the season filling