Mike Campbell

anxious to play then? Was it really money? What inspired you to finally pick up a guitar? Well, it was the sixties, you know, and the Beatles, of course, Uh had a huge impact on me. And that would have been fourteen when they hit the Ed Sullivan Show, and I got pretty excited then. Up until then, I was just hearing my dad's records, which were Johnny Cash and Elvis records, and I like the guitar. But when I saw, you know, the Beatles, it was like, I gotta have

one of those. You know. It took a couple of years to save up fifteen bucks to get a little cheap guitar, but that's when the fire was lit. So what was your first guitar? It was a Harmony acoustic that my mom got me at a pawn shop and we were pretty hard up for cash, but she had fifteen dollars and it was unplayable, you know, the strings were so far off the fret board. But I didn't know any better. I thought that's just the way it was. And I just remember thinking, boy, these guys are strong,

you know. And so I learned to play on that thing until my fingers was bleed, actually, and uh, until I saw a friend with the Gibson one day, and then I realized, I'm my god, it's easy. Yeah, But that was my personal harmony acoustic, f whole guitar. So how long after that you get your second guitar? And what was that? Well, my second guitar, my dad was

in the Air Force. He was over in Okinama, and I kept begging him for an electric guitar, and he got together sixty bucks and sent me an electric Goya tone. I think it was called a Japanese thing. It looks kind of like a strat a little bit, and I learned to play on that, and I was playing on that when I met Tom years A few years later okay, So how did you teach yourself to play guitar? Did

you take lessons or what do you do? No, I kind of I got a book that showed you how to make the chords, mel Bay Chord Book, like oh yeah, I said, And uh, I would listen to the records and just you know, look at the chords and taught myself by ear. You know, back then all you had was records. But if it was an album, you could slow it down to sixteen. I p s to really hear what the guitar was doing at half speed. And I did that a little bit to figure out stuff.

But I was just obsessed, you know. I was possessed to figure this thing out. And uh I did not have any lessons. Although early in my life, when I was in elementary school, I did take accordion lessons. My parents forced me, so I excuse me. I had a little bit of music basic theory, you know, in my back pocket, you know, but the guitar was all self taught. How long did you take the accordion lessons for? I don't know, maybe until Little League season started about a

couple of months maybe, I don't know. Okay, so were you good athlete. No, I loved it. I mean I was a Sandlot sand Lot star. You know, I would get out of school. I couldn't make the school teams. I wasn't good enough. But I just love to get together my buddies and play in the in the park, at the in the neighborhood there and Uh, but once I started playing guitar, that all just disappeared. I didn't care about anything else. So did you find a team

easily or did you have to work really hard? Both? Uh, A lot of it came easy. I had an instinct for it, but I worked really hard. Like I said, you know, I'm I'm not making a joke. I would play that thing and my fingers should start bleeding and I had to stop, you know, until it's scapped over and I'm done for the day. You know, there's blood, you know. But I just wanted to learn so bad. I think if you have a desire, you know, you'll find a way to figure out what you want to do.

And at what point did you start to play with other people? Well? Uh, a year or so into it, I met a buddy who played acoustic guitar, and he turned me on to Bob Dylan, and uh, he taught me one of my first songs on the acoustic guitar, which was off of Bob Dylan record. It was called Baby let Me Follow You Down. He showed me that, and then Uh, I had a couple of friends here and there. We'd sit in the garage and play, but nothing really uh crystallized until I got to Gainsville, Florida

and got in my own little band. Okay, so we're exactly did you grow up Jacksonville, Orlando and Jacksonville and your father was in the Air Force? Were your parents still together? They were to other until I was fifteen, and it was a pretty uh unhappy divorce and the money was really tight. Uh, but that's when we moved to Jacksonville. Cous my all, my my mom's folks lived there.

So after the divorce, she wanted to be near her family, so we moved up there and I went to school there and uh eventually ended up back in Gainesville, uh for college. So what was it like being fifteen years old and having your parents have an acrimonious divorce? You know, I think it scarred me pretty good, but it made me tough, you know. I mean, it was you don't want to get deep into the psychology of it, but it hurt bad, you know. You know, that was my

whole life. Like I kept thinking, like, can't you just stick together for me? But you know, and I'm I'm older now, I understand how things happen, but it it did a number on me. And uh, I've worked on that over my life to resolve those issues, and uh, I think it kind of gave me an intention to never do that to my children because it was pretty

pretty rough. You know, I kind of felt worthless. I guess most kids that are from come from a divorce get that feeling of like God, you know, and back then, you know, being from a divorce family was kind of a shameful thing to be kind of. You know, you weren't anything you were proud of. Nowadays people probably don't think about it that much, but it was kind of a heavy traumatic thing back then. You're absolutely right. I remember it was really rare in the mid and late sixties. So, uh,

you say you worked to resolve the trauma. How did you do that? Well? For a while, I went to this therapist, this lady who was really great at helping me work through some all kinds of stuff I was going through, uh, you know, being in a rock and roll band, in my marriage, and we eventually got into my childhood and she helped me see it from a different perspective and kind of mend those fences in my

head and make you a little more at peace with it. Uh. And of course my wife, you know, she's I've been with my wife for forty six years, and she was very supportive of helping me through whatever, you know, issues I might be going through, and vice versa. So how old were you when you got married? I was twenty six, twenty and then our first child was born and when I was twenty six And was that something you were inspired to do or was your wife pregnant or you know,

you're a rock and roll musician. A lot of people love to live the free and easy lifestyle. Well that's a good question. Um. At that point in my life, I was not looking to get married per se. But I wasn't uh repelled by the idea like I had been a few years earlier. I mean back in Florida, I sold a lot of roots, you know, a young musician, and by the time I got out and started making you know, at the time I got married, she was

making more money than I was. You know, we were on a deal with Shelter Records that wasn't really bringing in much dough and she was a grocery checker, so she was actually paying the bills. And um, you know, we just kind of connected. Unfortunately, we connected before I was a you know, celebrity or star or whatever. It was just Mike and we have that that special bond I don't think i'd ever find again, because you know, there's a different perspective of who and what I am now.

So that was that was really good for us and for me. Um, I don't know if I answered your question or not. Well, what inspired you actually did tie the knot? Oh? Well, yeah, she she said, you know, I guess what I think we're gonna. I think we're gonna be having a baby. And what was interesting is that if I'd heard that two years prior, I probably would have freaked out, Oh my god, nothing, no way,

you know. But I kind of sat with it and I thought, you know what, I think I'm I think I'm kind of okay with this at this point in my life. My head is kind of open to that idea and one thing just flowed into another. Of course, the Spigs the question was not long thereafter Petty and the Heartbreakers start to get traction did and there and all of a sudden, you have that fame that you did not have previously. And what about all the temptations of the road. Well, you know, that was really hard

on my wife. God bless her. H here's a new baby shows up. And then I'm off on tour and the band starts to happen and I become, you know, successful, more than we had planned on that quickly, and it was very fortunate. And uh, you know, we would try to stay and sync with each other while I was on the road, she was home with a baby, and it was a struggle. You know, it was a struggle. But I love her and I would always put her

in my family first, you know. And the other stuff, I think a lot of the other party and young guys stuff. I had already kind of gotten a lot of it out of my system. Uh, And so it wasn't that hard for me to to be a good guy. So what's the key to having a forty six year long marriage. Don't get divorced? Okay, I mean, I has someone who's been divorced. I know exactly what you're talking about, but that usually implies there's some heavy moments where the

road could go another way. Would you would get divorced? Of course? Of course. Well I borrowed that line from Olivia Harris and somebody asked her once like, how do you how do you keep your marriage together? She goes, don't don't get divorced, but as a as a you know, a short little comment. But underneath that comment, you are going to hit bumps in the road. It's inevitable, and

you can get divorced. You could split and go down different paths, or you can sit in there and really look at well, what do I what's really important here? You know? Is this something we could work out together or is it a deal breaker? You know? And of course in my lifestyle and being separated uh on tour and her at home with the babies and coming home and happen to get to know each other again and stuff like that, it was hard and it breaks most urges up, you know, And I can see why, and

I'm just lucky that mine held together. And I think the reason is because, first of all, she's very understanding and very patient and was willing to accept her part of the dynamic, you know, and I was willing to meet her on at the table and go, well, you know, like, this is what happened. How do you really feel about it? You know, do you want to carry on together? Or

is this? Are we done? And every time we hit a snag, it was always like, I think we can get over this because the love is stronger than this. So is she the product of divorce or her parents stayed together? No, her parents stayed together. U um they live into their nineties. Uh so No, she Uh, she's a California girl, went to Fairfax High School, you know, and I found my California girl. And no, she didn't have that trauma. She had other you know, everybody has

her own personal issues with their parents. She had her own issues, but basically they were relatively stable. You know, they stayed together and they they put up with each other. You know, they well we're always you know, I'll walk in the park together. Either. But yeah, well, to keep a marriage together, how much of it do you think was her strength or your strength or both of you

were very strong wanting to keep it going. Both, but I think especially her because I really, you know, when I think back on it being home, if it had been the other way around, if I'd have been home taking care of her baby and she was out party and being a rock star and having all this stuff happened, and going to different cities and countries and all the you know experiences that might be going she might be having without me, it probably would have been really hard

on me. You know. I give her a lot of credit for for being strong and uh standing by me, you know, and um, and I give myself some credit to for not getting you know, distracted by the the the trappings of of rock star life. You know, it's it's really pretty shallow, you know, if you're gonna go down that road and be a partier and stuff, eventually, you know, it's it's not very fulfilling. And how many

kids do you have? I have three, and I also now have three grandchildren that are about almost the same age, two twins, and my son has a son. And they're the joy of our life. You know, they're beautiful. And what are they up to? Well, they're almost five, so they're not up to nothing much except you know, drawing and playing and getting into trouble. But they're they're parents, your three kids. Oh, they're well, my my daughter had the twins, her husband's her husband's has a great job

as a contractor. My other daughter is living alone, um, and she has a dog in her own place. And my son is married and has a child, and he's a dog trainer. He has a dog training business. So they're all maintaining. And they say, basically pretty happy. So you're from Florida and you met your wife before your success in California. How did you meet her? That's a great story. I don't know if you want to hear it. Tell her. I love telling the story. We met on Halloween,

and uh, the story goes. Um. I was living in a house. The band Mudcrutch was struggling with a record deal and everything was falling apart. I was living in a house with out in Canoga Park with a couple of the other guys and they were going to go to a party. I didn't want to go, you know, And I was living in a bedroom with a mattress on the Florida. I didn't have much work for me, but I did have a little car. But they I'll come on, there'll be some girls there, you know. So

they drugged me along. Of course we got there. There was one girl and eight guys typical you know, all not taking you know, uh kayludes or whatever. The day party was. I'm sitting there and uh, Marcy, my wife, shows up with her dog. And she was best friends with the girl, Marcia, who was there, and so she I saw her walk in. I was sitting in the other room and and her dog came over to me and connected with me. You know, I was just sitting like this dog was just like we had a bond

going on. I was talking to the dog and petting the dog. She walked by and said, is this your dog? And then we started talking and had a great conversation and kind of hit it off. And at the end of the night, Uh, I split. I didn't ask her for her number, she hadn't asked me for mine. I split, and the uh the next day, I thought, God, you know, that girl was really nice and I have no way to get ahold of her. And I wonder if I can find that apartment you know it was it was.

I had only been there in the middle of the night. So I got in my car drove over to where I thought it was it was on the second story, I remembered, and somehow I found the apartment and then knocked on the door and her friend Marcia opened the door. She was on the phone, and I was about to say, do you know how to get ahold of? And she handed me the phone and Marcy was on the phone to her asking her about me. You know, the guy

never even asked me for my number. I I don't know who he is or how to go hold of him. So it's kind of like a serendipitous moment, you know. And and so we and we we now. You know, dogs are a major part of our lives. She had a dog rescue business for a while, and we have lots of dogs. So we were kind of brought together by by the dog and and the rest is history. And Okay, growing up, how many kids in the family? And my family, I had a brother and his sister.

And where are you in the hierarchy? I'm the oldest, So how many years between all of you? Five five years apart, five years apart to the youngest. Yeah, well no, uh, I was born, my sister was born five years later, my son was born five years later. I mean my brother was born five years later, so we're spread over time, right, So you're growing up we kind of kid, are you good student, bad student, loaner? Popular? I was introverted. I

was a pretty good student. I only had a couple of friends, and uh, you know, I had friends, Like I said, he used to play sand lot ball when I was younger. But once I got the guitar, it was me in the guitar, you know, and in the bedroom,

and that was pretty much my social life. And I was really shy and really but I noticed as I played the guitar and got a little bit good that people were drawn to me, you know, like girls would come up and talk to me, or guys would come up, and they were And my dad told me once, if you learned how to play an instrument, you'll always have friends. And I didn't know what he meant, but he was right.

And so the guitar kind of brought people to me and brought gave me confidence to be a little more talkative. And that's kind of what I was, like, kind of quiet, and uh you know, I kept to myself a lot. So you go to Gainesville for college. How long do you stay in college? Did you graduate? I did not graduate. I went about a year and a half and then uh, I jumped into Tom's band and let my tuition run

out and got a guitar and never look back. So unfortunately, it was just a couple of nights before Tom passed. But he was on stage in the Hollywood Bowl telling a long story of how you actually met with a lot of humor. Yeah, how did you? How did you actually meet? That is true, That whole story is true. You know. He he embellished it with the humor, but it is exactly true. I was in the back room of this house I was renting with the Mudcrutch drummer,

and I had seen Tom play with this band. Mudcrutch was kind of like a Burrito Brothers country rock group at the college. I'd seen them and I thought, oh, they're pretty good. It wasn't I was more into blues and rock at the time. But I saw on the bulletin board I saw they were looking for a drummer, and so I told my friend. My roommate said, you know, this band's looking for a drummer. You should call them. The true story. They came out to the house to

audition the drummer. They said, oh, our guitar player just quit. Do you know somebody? I was in the back room with my little Japanese going a guitar and I came out and they're just like, oh God, not this guy. He can't be cool. I had short hair and cut off in this shitty little Japanese guitar and you could just see the looks on their faces like, oh, how do we get out of away from this guy? And they said, Okay, where do we play? And I said, well,

I know Johnny be Good? So we played Johnny be Good. That was it. Their their faces changed completely. That's just like Tom tells a story. It was like as soon as they heard me play, like, you're gonna be in my band forever. And I was yeah, that's how he told the story. So just to go back prior to meeting Tom, to what degree were you playing with other

people and did you play out for money? I didn't play for much money, but I did have a little group, a three piece group, and we would play for free at the college and it was mostly blues and improvisation type playing and jamming, and so I was getting really in love with being the feeling of being in a band and playing in front of people. UM, and then Tom and and Mudcrutch. We we started getting little gigs like at the Topless Bar, the Women's club or at

the college. You know, we pay you know, a hundred and fifty bucks or whatever for the whole band. And Um, then we got a gig at Dubs topless Bar, which happened to be just up the street from my farmhouse. I could actually walk there. So we we played there for a couple of months, like you know, four sets of night and we got like a hundred bucks apiece

a week, which was like a fortune for us. And that's when I really assumedly really became a band and learned how to play live, you know, hours and hours at this topless bar, and uh, pitch grew from there. So you say you were more into blues and rock this is the late sixties, what kind of acts? What were you into? Well, I was really enthralled. Of course, I loved the Beatles and Stones as much as anybody. But I wasn't into the California country rock scene so

much as Tom was. But I learned to appreciate that. But I was listening to like Paul Butterfield and Mike Bloomfield, records, and uh, at the time, I like Jerry Garcia quite a bit. Um, but I like the English guys a lot, you know, George Harrison, Keith Richards and the Kinks, Animals. There were so many great bands with good guitar players,

and I was in thrall with all that stuff. But when I when I was playing my first band I got together, I wasn't really singing much at all, and we didn't know any songs, so we would just start start, you know, of twelve bar and then it would just go on for five, five, six minutes, you know, So we were just kind of jamming mostly. But Tom it was cool about his band as they were doing songs with harmonies, like three minutes songs with the chorus and verses,

and I like that. I was drawn to that, like, guess that's what I'd really like to do. And I hadn't really explored that part of being in a band until then. So let's just stop for a second. In your opinion, and it's obviously an opinion, who's the best rock guitarist? Boy, that's a loaded question. Uh wow, Well, the best, the most original and out of this world would be Jimmy Hendrix. Uh, does that make him the best? I don't know. I really like Mike Bloomfield's playing. I

like Eric Clapton, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck. I mean, you know, it's hard to pick one. There were so many greats back then, but Jimmy Hendrix kind of it was head and shoulders, unique above everybody else. He was taken to guitar places, but he was still good. You know, he wasn't just crazy, but he was able to really go into places to get sounds and and feelings out of the guitar that weren't your standard guitar approach, you know. And he really was pretty untouchable. So let's go back

to the band. When you join Mud Crutch, is Tom already writing original material? Yeah, that's what kind of bonded us is. Uh. After we had, you know, played a little bit, we said and started talking and uh, I think he had showed us one song that he was writing, and he, I said, I'm righting, I'm trying to write some songs too. He said really, and he said yeah.

I said, yeah, I got this. Damn. I didn't have any many words, but it was I said, just kind of like a Roger mcgwen type song, and he goes, oh, I like Roger mcgwin, And so we immediately picked up that each other was trying to to compose our own music. And he was a little bit more advanced than I was at that time. He'd already been writing songs, completed songs. I was still putting like little pieces together. But we had that bond right away, you know, writing our own stuff.

And you drop out of college. You ever have a street gig? No? I mean in high school I worked at a burger joint, you know, um greasy spoon, mopping the floor. Mostly at the university, I got a temporary job like shelving books, old dusty books that were in the room. It was really a boring job. But no, I never really had a proper job to speak of. No, that's great. So, okay, you're playing the topless bar. What's

the next step after that? Well, the next step out of that is to get away from the perverts and try to play a little more nicer places. Like at the university. You could get gigs playing in the park and you know, a bunch of hippies would show up with frisbees and you could play. They put up a stage or you could play the women's clubs. You could

play the women's club for a couple of hundred bucks. Uh, you know, some bars here and there, and sometimes we drive to Tampa or Orlando and play you know, like like a youth center or something, just stuff like that, anything to get away from the CD bars. And then we began to realize that, you know, because also the thing with those gigs you can play your own so songs and the bars. She kind of had to play

the top forty stuff. But in our on the other gigs, we could explore our own writing, you know, And so we liked that approach, and we just realized pretty soon that you know, this is the direction to go, and we're gonna have to you know, make a tape and get to try to get a record deal and move somewhere else where the records are happening. And over time we ended up in l A. You know, so how long between the time you meet Tom and you end up in l A, uh, three two or three years?

And at that point, how often is the band rehearsing? How often is the band playing? Oh, we used to play all the time in rehearsal, all the time in my bedroom or whatever. In Gainesville. We you know, we just play and as soon as we got a gig, we tote the stuff out and towed it back. We didn't have roadies, uh, but you know, we were playing as much as we could, you know, and if we didn't have a gig, we just get together and rehearse and and try to learn new songs or just play

for fun. And at what point do you replace the goya? Well, um, that's an interesting story. I wanted and we had gone up. We got a gig in Birmingham, Alabama for some reason, opening for Mitch Rider in the Detroit Wheels, if you can believe that. So we drive up there and we went to a pawn shop and uh, we said, do you have any guitars and she said, well, there's one, but you wouldn't want it. So immediately the light bulbs

go on. Yeah, you know, she brings out this Gibson Firebird, red Firebird, and it was a hundred and twenty bucks. You know, now it would be worth you know, forty grand. But I got that and that was my guitar for quite a while. And then later on I had seen a stratocaster at the music store which was two hundred bucks sixty four strat if you could believe that, And Uh, I didn't have the money. But a friend of a friend had just had an insurance UH automobile settlement and

she had some cash. She said, well, here, I'll I'll loan you the money you can buy the Strato caster. So then I had to Gibson into the Strat And those are my two guitars for quite a wow. And what about a namp? I had a Fender. I got together enough to get a Fender twin. And back then you can get these things called electro voice speakers and put them in and they had a lifetime guarantee. If you blew it up, you can just take it to the store and they'd put a new one in for you.

So that's the one I had. How often did you blow it up? Oh, every couple of months, I know, three or four months, and one of them would go on the fritz and just take it in and haven't pop a new one in. Pretty cool, Okay. So how many guitars going today? It's sick too many, but I love them all. I think I's just sold about a hundred of them for an auction. And uh, I've now got my guitars and a nice display where I can see them all and I can get to them. I've got a lot of my stuff is on this just

carousel that I built in my rehearsal room. It goes up electronically and it's got hooks and there's all my nicest guitars up there. I push a button, it goes, it comes down, and I could pick what I want. But I've got a lot. You know, I've been collecting forever and I love them, and I used every one of them, you know, every one of them has been on the road or and on a record. I've kind of stopped buying now because I kind of got one

of everything I wanted. And uh, which is funny because back in the day, when I couldn't afford one, I'd see the who and I'd get so piste off. You know, don't don't break that. Send it to me. You know, it's a good, good dog. You're just gonna break the neck off of it. Used to used to kill me, but you know now I I treasure my instruments and they they're good investments. So it worked out. How did you decide to part with a hundred, and how hard

was that? It wasn't hard at all. I had too many, and I couldn't remember keep track of them all, and they were all in cases and stored away, and so I finally just got them all out, and I just picked the ones that I don't didn't use all the time, and auctioned them ount and got quite a bit of money for them all. But I still have plenty left, you know, I don't over a hundred. But they're all a vantage, choice, choice instruments. So if you could only

save two, what would they be. Well, one would be my broadcaster Fender Broadcaster, which I used on the first album, And I guess my other one would be the fifty nine less Paul of which I only got about ten years ago and I used in the last several Heartbreakers records. Those two are kind of irreplaceable. Okay, broadcaster has one pickup. Telecaster has too. No broadcaster has two pickups. The esquare has one that Oh, you're right, that's what I'm saying,

I'm screwing up. Of course I'm right. I'm a guitar play right, Well, I thought, I you know, you know, my brain didn't go back enough time to absolutely, So tell me about moving to California. How does that all go down? Well, it said, we made a movie about it. I runed down a dream. It went down that. We made a demo tape and sent it around, got mostly rejected, and got a little bit of interest from this company called Shelter Records, which was Leon Russell and Denny Cordo's label.

So we piled everything and pulled all our money and got been Much's parents station wagon and we rented a truck and piled everything in and drove out like the Beverly Hill Police, you know, and wound up in Hollywood like you know, rednecks from space. We were totally out of out of sink with everything, but we had to learn,

you know. We just buckled down and you know, stumbled around the studio for a while the crutch dissolved, and then slowly we met up and there the guys just formed the Heartbreakers, made our first record, and then things started to get better a little bit slower though. Didn't you go back to Florida? Well there was a first, the first foray or say whatever the word is, out to California. Tom went went out with the Roady I

stayed home. I gave him my fifty bucks, was all I had, and they went out and knocked on doors, and then they came back. And then we started getting the rejection letters, and then we got one that sounded interesting from Denny Cordell, and uh, then we all got together and headed out, hoping that he would save our lives, you know, and he did. So what was the magic

of Danny Cordell. Denny Cordell? First of all, he believed in us, and he saw something that we didn't even see, that we had a chemistry and that we were unique, and that we had us, you know, some songwriting that was better than most people. He picked up on the songwriting and on Tom's charisma and on the chemistry of the band, you know, and he believed in us, and he gave us confidence. And he was really good at because we were so especially in the studio, we were

so green. We didn't know what we were doing. Had to get a good sound or how to you know, play it right, or this and that, and he was good was saying, well, you know that's out of these three songs. Those two were crap, but this one's good. Write some more songs like this, one in that vein, you know, it kind of directing us like a gurro down the path towards our pure self. And that was his his main contribution is giving us confidence and believing

in us and the right advice that we needed. So, how long after you start figuring out the studio the zero in and you're making a record or you essentially making a record the whole time, Well, you're always trying to make a record, you know. You go and each time you're gonna record something, you think, well, maybe this will be on a record, But of course most of the time it was just you know, you have to

throw it out and start over. But you just, yeah, we're always thinking of this is going to be a record, you know, until it's not okay. And so how long after you start playing around as the record done. Well, once we got the lineup of the Heartbreakers and Tom brought in at the same time, that happened. He brought in these great songs. It all just kind of happened at the same time. It didn't take us that much, you know, a couple of months to record the first record,

which we recorded at the office at Shelter Records. They had put a makeshift studio in there, and we called it the Brown Room, and and uh we got in there and just you know, one one or good time until we had you know, ten or twelve songs, and he brought in like American Girl Breakdown. All these great songs just came out of the air. He came in with those, and that we had the band, so it all started to gel. So what are you living on at this point in time? Well, I'm living on my

wife's meager salary as a grocery checker. I was on a retainer I think for I don't know, a hundred bucks maybe a week. Sheolter Records was you know, not rolling in the dough, so they were kind of keeping us alive. I looked back, I don't know how we lived. I don't know how we paid her rent and got groceries. But for me personally, uh, my wife was at a steady job and she was you know, covering the bases

until the music started bringing in money. And then she you know, had a baby and was able to quit her job. But we just I don't know we survived. You know. It was like kind of when I think back on it, I don't know how we did it. We we got through somehow. So the album comes out, certainly gets some mink that people know know that it's out, but nothing really happens in the US. How do you

end up going to the UK? Well, we got a meager airplay in San Francisco, in Boston, but basically nothing happening. And somehow, um through the record company and the promoters, they got us onto a tour with Nose Loft Gran

in England. I don't know how they did that, but we all went to England to open for Nose Left Grin and around around the country there, and uh, the press over there for some reason really loved us, you know, and so we started to get a buzz over there and positive press and that kind of snowballs when we gave us a little momentum. When we came back, we had a little you know, energy underneath us from that tour and we started to get a little more airplay. And it was a slow process, you know. We it

took us a while. We paid some dutes for sure. Well, I certainly remember in Los Angeles he started to play a live version of Breakdown, and you know, I remember it was a slow burn. I remember seeing you guys at the Whiskey in the summer of seventy seven. It was really starting to Oh that was a great game as it was. Uh So, in any event, at what point do you side, Okay, we gotta make a second record? Well, um, we always thought we were going to make a second record.

It was a matter of, I guess this one's done, all that's gonna do, Let's make another one, you know. And back then the industry was way different than it is now, you know, And back then you could put out a record or two that maybe don't set the world on fire. But if you go out and tour and start to build up a fan base over time, by the third or fourth record, if things go well, your records will start selling because you've built up, you know, a fan based on the road. Nowadays it's different, but

that's what we did, you know. We just go out and get whatever. We opened a lot of shows like for Ja Giles and Bob Seeger or whoever would have us, and we would play, you know, our own shows and the smaller clubs like I kind of like what I'm doing now with my band and um, and then in between that we would go in and try to work on the you know, songs for the second record, and when it was done, we put it out and kept going, you know, books and more gigs. At what point do

you hook up with Tony demitriotus? He was around uh early on. Uh. There was a couple of managers that were snipping around us in the early days, and he was the one that seemed the most honest and trustworthy, and so he was. He was there for pretty early on. So you make the second album, I mean, the first album I absolutely love with Luna, the Wall, One Forever, etcetera. The second album comes out, it gets more attention. I

do not like it as much as the first. That's not saying that I don't like it, but it doesn't quite break through with the expectations. What was your perspective being on the inside? I agree with you. I like that. I still think the first record is one of my favorite records of all our records. The second record was good, had I Need to Know and uh listen to Her Heart. You know, it had some good songs on there. Um, but we're still kind of learning, and so it's just

a matter of, you know, more of the same. We got a record, you know, a couple of songs are getting a little bit of airplay, and we'll go out and get some gigs and maybe try to build up some momentum and make another record someday, you know. Of course, by the time we got to the third record, we realized, you know, we got to make a really good record now because this is you know, we can't go on like this. We need something that's going to break through.

And that was for the third album was finally we we hit bigger. And are you still living on a subsistence level or have you ever seen him? Yeah? Yeah, we're still getting by on you know, month to month, you know, paying her rent. So how do you find groceries? How do you end up poking up up with me iving? Well, it was Cordell actually, uh and his uh great wisdom. Uh. He said, you know what you guys need to to

make a record that's more mainstream friendly. And he said, I don't think I know how to produce that type of record, but I should step aside. We should get you a producer that makes records that sound great on the radio. And so we said, well, like what and he played his so Patti Smith's song because the night which Jimmy had produced and it had this huge drum sound and it just sounded great on the radio. So

we said, well, can we get that guy? And so he came in and we started working with him, going for the big sound. This is also the point where you get into the war with m c A. What was your perspective on that, Well, you know, we're just scuffling poor boys, you know. The record company kind of shuffled us over to a read other record company. We're not making any money and and uh that you know, we're not going to give them another record because there

they don't deserve it. So we just won't record. We'll go out and play and we did a lawsuit tour. We refused to record for the new which I went from Shelter to M to ABC and then m c A. And they just shuffled us around and asked us, you know, said okay, well we're not gonna give you a record, we'll just play live, you know. And then eventually things came around and they renegotiated the deal and we got Jimmy to produce and uh get over at m c A. And it was it was just a I don't know

as bad as it might sound. Uh, I'm in l A, I'm playing in the band. We have records out. I was already successful in my mind, you know, I had no idea what we were gonna do. But even though we were struggling and scuffling and getting by, I still felt coming from Gainesville, Florida, that was still pretty high end stuff for me. Okay, you work with Jimmy and obviously Damn the Torpedoes is the huge breakthrough. What is

his influence? Well, Jimmy. First of all, he brought his engineer who got that great sound, Shelley Akis, And it was really hard work. Uh, I mean almost totally miserable, trying to get a sound, not really knowing what we're doing and learning and and you know, they would work on the snare drum for three days, you know, and then okay, we got the snare drum sound, let's work on the base, you know, and two weeks go by. Okay, now play this song. Well, I don't even feel like

playing the song now. I'm sick of hearing the snare drum. So we had to learn how to get the sound in her head from the room into what we were hearing that back on the speakers, and Jimmy was good at that. He knew what he was going for and um, he was driven to make the best sounding record ever made. That was you know, jim he had and Tom too, this vision of you know, we're going for greatness. You know, we're not gonna settle for anything that's not better than

everything else out there. And Jimmy had that drive in that overview. Um, and he pushed his hard, you know. But that record came out and it did really well. So there you go. So we're all those songs written before you got into the studio with Jimmy, Uh, we're songs rejected. How did you end up with those songs? Well, we had a handful of songs. We had Refugee and here comes to My Girl, which I had written with Tom. Okay,

you just stayed stopped there for a second. That change and here comes my Girl where it goes down and goes watch her walk? How did that come? How did that come together? That's something it's indelible. I tingled what I think about it. They called it a bridge, and it's very you know, it's just a matter of the two chords just going along, you know, and then go where do I go from there? Well, how about take

it to another mood for a second and back. It was just a little interlude to give those chords a break, and that's what a good bridge should do. That should just like bridge you from that course into the next verse without distracting from the flow. It was just a chord really, It went down from A to F sharp and it's just something I came up with on my demo.

So anyway, we had those two songs and some other songs. Uh, don't do me like that was in there, but we were we'd already tried that a few times with their first two albums and we're off of it, and maybe a Louis the Enter Reign, we might have had that song. But Jimmy Ivan he heard Refugee and Here Comes from a Girl and said, I don't care what else you guys do. That's the h We've got a record those two songs. I don't even want to hear the rest of you do whatever you want. We're gonna make a

hit out of those two songs. And he goes, I never listened to side too of any record my whole lot. Yeah, that's the kind of guy Jimmy was, you know, he wanted to business. He wanted it now, and he heard the business and those two songs, Okay, we're gonna make those that you guys make the rest of the record whatever you want, you know, which is really kind of hilarious. But don't do me like that. We did pull out at the last second. We had cut it and put it away, and then we heard it. So one that

was pretty good. We should finish it. And so that came out on that record as well, and we usually enter reigning a few other rockers and but really it was the refugee and here comes to my girl kind of carried the weight on that one. So how did you? And Tom Right and even the losers even, how did you? That's my wife. That's my wife at the beginning, it's

just a normal noise. Really, okay, that's my wife, Marcy. Uh. When I did the demo at my house and my four tracks, she was in the other room and the washing machine was going to took a ticker tick out? What is that? She goes, It's just the normal noises in here, and so I was it bled into my demo. So when Tom heard, he says, we have to use that that bit, and Jimmy thought he was nice. He said,

what's that got to do with the record? Said no, but we need it because the two songs were in the same key, so that kind of distracted your mind from what key you were in, and so she became on the record. It was funny, that is. I never knew a little aside. I never knew that story. So how do you write refugee, which is really the big monster breakthrough, you know, how do you write it? I don't know, man, it's it's it's it's magic and luck

and work, you know. I was just I had my four track, which, once again, my wife talked me into buying the four track. We could it was a t ac you know, we couldn't afford it, but she said, no, you should buy that. You know it'll pay off. And she was right. God bless her. She always believed in me. But anyway, I had my four track and I was

playing around with it, you know, and trying to think it. Well, let me put it some chords on here so I could play lead guitar along with it and practice my leads. It was those chords that I borrowed from Albert Kane song and changed around a little bit, and I just threw a little demo together, uh not mostly for an excuse to practice lead guitar. And uh then Tom heard it, and of course he hit that that lyric and you know, forget about it. You know, he made it like eighteen

times better, and uh it became this iconic song. I mean, it's just luck, man, you know, I think about that all the time. Where do these songs come from? Hawaii? Where did it? You know? How can I why can I just conjure it up every day? I don't know. It's magic, it's luck, it's spiritual, it's just I think, And it's just a lot of just keeping your head, your nose to the nose to the grindstone, just work and work and working and hoping that some miracle will

happen in the middle of it all. You know. So when you wrote with Tom, is that generally the way it would go down. You would do something independently delivered to him, he'd write the lyrics. Yeah. Always we never sat down eyeball to eyeball. It seems always seem so intimidating, like what do you got? What you got? You know? So I would just come in, but well, here's an idea. I'd play the tape you know, how about this? You know?

And he would if he liked it, he would just start, you know, I guess, singing along in his He go, I'll take it off to his house and come back to me and see, I think I got some words for that music. And that's the way it always worked. It was a great relationship. Did you ever add words? Did he ever change the music? Occasionally, like those two songs Refugee and Her christ m Girl. Most of the

songs the music was intact. Occasionally he would come in and go, you know, I've got this this lyric going, and I need a different chord here to to carry through with what you've already got. He might add a chord, very rarely what I suggest a lyric maybe later on. I had a few lyrics suggestions, but I almost always left the lyrics up to him. And I would say, like a five percent of the time the demos were exactly the way I handed him to him. Okay, this

begs the question of publishing. These are gigantic songs. How much of the publishing did you own? Then? Do you own? Now? We always split everything fifty. Okay, so we had fifty, you add five d and you owned it together, or there was another party that had another fifty. Now we owned it together, I mean until late recently. Uh, I don't know what his his stage is done with his publishing.

But nowadays you can sell your publishing to a third party if you want to get all the cash that you're gonna end make over the next few years up front, if you want it. But we never did that. He had gone Gator Music. I had Wild Gator Music, and we kept our our publishing. You know, we didn't want to sell it. So it was just a you know, a two way partnership. Okay. But from the very first record, you and Tom owned the Hunter Present. Yeah that's kind of rare. And yeah, well well we learned. See, we

had learned the hardway. On those first two records, we got shuffle around by the company. That's what that lawsuit was all about. It's like, you know, you're not gonna take our music, You're not gonna take our publishing. Like even Cordell and our first deal, he wrote in a piece of the publishing for himself, which we didn't know any better. But by the third record, we were smart,

you know. Now we're keeping our songs, you know, and you can have the artists, you know, a piece of the artist record royalties, but the songs belong to us, and that's mostly Tom. Tom was very astute businessman. And did you ever get the pieces back from the first two records? We did? We did eventually buy them back. I forget, probably twenty years ago or something. It became available when we bought them back, so we owned it all now. And what what about you selling it to

hypnosis or primary wave or something. Well, I'll have to be really hard up for cash to do that. Um. I think I recently did it. My wife is the businesswoman in the partnership. I think we did a temporary deal where we wanted to buy some property and we did like, okay, well you give us an advance for you know, I think it was four years or something, and then after the four years we get all the publishing back, a little temporary cash jump thing. But I don't want to give up my songs, you know, I

really don't. Unless I'm really destitute or the kids need medical treatment or something, I would never sell The songs are my part of them. Okay. The record is done. Do you think it's gonna be make a successful Do you think refugees and instant hit? What's your perspective? We had no idea. I mean, Jimmy thought it was. And see the thing that Jimmy did more than just producing. He went out and promoted the record when it was done.

You know, he would take the tapes and fly to New York and go to the radio station said, but let's play this, play this, this is the best thing ever done. He was a real promoter, you know, he went out and pushed that record and got it played a lot. But did what do we know? I mean, we made another record, you know, hopefully it'll do well. I mean I think it's pretty good. But you know, until people start buying it and and then you begin to realize like, wow, this connected with some people, but

you don't really know. We didn't. Well, certainly Los Angeles refugee hits the radio instantly. So at what point did you realize, holy fuck, this is really happening. Well, yeah, there was. There was kind of a moment there. Uh, when the first publishing check in. I remember looking at and going like with my wife, going like, honey, I think our ship just came in, you know, let's go by Mercedes. Then I went to the accountant and had

the meeting. Yeah, that was your gross and then he pushed me a piece here, here's your money after taxes, and I was like, no, this can't be true. I finally made it and you're taking or than have him it back. There was, you know, a lesson in life. So what was the whole damn the Torpedoes experience, Like being at the pinnacle of the music business, well you know where it's like, uh, it's like the first time. Yeah, we were right now. It's it's so heavy and your

dream it all starts to happen. It's like it's so intense and wonderful and spiritual that you can hardly. Um. The only way we could deal with it's just like, Okay, that's good, that's happening. Wow, it's gonna happen, and everything's gonna let's focus, you know, stay focused on on one work because otherwise you just get lost and and the glory of your success. You know, it was pretty heavy, and uh it was um, you know, it's like the first time, like the first time you ever have sex.

You know, it's never quite as good as that first time, and then we've had hit records system. But when when you first breakthrough, it's like, Wow, we did it. We're gonna be We're gonna this is gonna be big. Imagine that. How did that happen? And it's like, you never you only get that feeling once and we were fortunate enough to have that happen on that record. So what opportunities

came your way? I'm not talking financial, but now you're sitting a top the charts, you suddenly start meeting your heroes. How does your life change? Yeah? Slowly, over time, you start to cross paths with, you know, people that you've looked up to because of your success in the in the the circles that you're you know, walking in. All of a sudden, um, that just starts to happen organically.

I mean, it wasn't like all of a sudden, all these people showed up at our door, but you know, you bump into this guy at the studio or that guy you know, or at a gig, somebody's backstage and they say hi, and then uh, it was just you know, I'm still blown away that the people I've met the heroes of mine that I've met that actually liked me and wanted to work with me. And I could never have dreamed that, you know, my life would unfold that way. When I was in Jacksonville, it was just like, it's

beyond my wildest dreams. It really is. Okay, so that record runs its course. How much pressure do you feel doing hard promises? Well, I didn't think about it that much. We'll just make another record, you know, now we're now they they like us, so we don't have to break through and prove that we're They already think we're good. So now we we have that under our belt. But you want to you know that from then on, every

record you're trying to make better than that one. Now, even to the last record we may, you're always trying to make the best record you ever. May you're not going to do that, nobody does, but you strive to do that. But we didn't struggle with pressure. You know, we were pretty confident that, you know, this may not be as good as Torpedoes, but it's good and it's just this chapter and maybe we'll make another record after see what happens there. But we didn't, you know, we

didn't agonize over it. My favorite song on that album. One of my favorite Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers songs is a woman in love It's not Me? Can you tell me the story of that? I wrote the music and I had a demo and gave it to Time. He wrote the words, and I liked that song a lot too. It's it's it's a really interesting character in that song. And Duck Dunn was in the studio that week and he came in and played based on it and really made it grew really nicely, and uh, well,

thank you. Yeah, I like that song too. It's just another demo I gave Tom and he was inspired to write a song to it. You know, So you go on tour. I remember seeing you with you were opening for Joe Walsh, which seemed a little strange, but uh, in any event, that album is not as commercially successful you make long. I don't remember opening for Joe Walsh ever. I mean after Torpedoes, we didn't open for anybody. Then

maybe Joe Walsh opened for you. Yeah, we never opened for Joe Walsh, but espec seriously, after actually before the third album, we made a decision. You know, we're not gonna open for anybody. Anymore. I'd rather play a smaller place where they all came to see us, and by torpedoes, we were certainly on our headliner all the time. Well then I must remember that upside down. So yeah, So in any event, long after Dark comes out and for me, of the initial run, that is the least satisfying record

and not that commercially successful. Was that something you guys felt? Are you just making another record? Well? Um, by that point, Uh, It's funny when you get a producer and you it into a role and you make a few records. Sometimes by the third or fourth record, it starts to get a little less fresh, the energy between you and you get a little stale creatively. And I think by that record maybe Jimmy was being pulled in different directions and maybe we were kind of uh, a little too familiar

with our routine and so the record. But you know, that's one thing. But the other thing is, like you asked me before, where do these songs come from? Those are the songs that came up that year, you know, and as a refugee or here comes my Girl or woman in Love. No, there's still quality, uh songs, but the bar is really high now and I agree with you. It's not one of my favorite records, although I like it and there's some high points in there, but it's

not as good as those other records you mentioned. Um, but that's the way a career is. You know, every record it makes not going to be better than the last one. I don't care who you are, you know. In fact, usually they get worse with a lot of artists. But we felt that, you know, this one's not as but we're okay because we have a fan base and it's still doing pretty good. Maybe the next one will

break through a big again, you know, just keep pushing forward. Well, Southern Accents ends up becoming huge based primarily I don't come around here no more. In the video on MTV. I mean, you guys are the opposite of what's normally being played at MTV at that particular point, which is a lot of English new wave. The song is different from anything anybody's ever heard before. Do you think that track is gonna go? Well, uh, you hope it will, but you never really know until it goes, you know,

keep your fingers crossed. You know, hit records that have a lot to do with timing to the climate of the culture and what other records are out at the same time that you're competing with. So we thought it was atty catchy. Um, but you know, you never really know. I think the song's southern accents. Um. That song is one of the best songs he ever wrote, just as a song. Um, you know, don't come around here no more.

There's a lot of bells and whistles on that record and the video, and back then it was the MTV was was an issue. You know, you had to make a cool video, and so it had that going for it. Um. And it was good to have Dave Stewart around for a little while as some new energy, break us out of our routine a little bit. And the following album, the opening song is Jamming Me, which is certainly something became a staple. Oh, certainly live. Bob Telling was one

of the cold writers. How does that? Yeah? I know, how lucky am I I wasn't even there, you know. I had the music, gave it to Tom and he had gone to see Bob at a hotel, local hotel for some reason or other, and he had my demo. He played it for Bob and they sat together and wrote the words. I wasn't even there, and he goes me up and he goes I think you know, Bob, and I wrote some words to your track. Oh great, you know, let let me hear it. You know it was jamming me. So there I am. I'm the luckiest

guy in the world. How do you feel at the time about Tomson he wants to cut a solo record. Well, I think it made sense because the band was a little stale and we were kind of following into a boring energy with We were bored with each other, we were bored with our way of making records, and I think it was healthy for everybody. Whether the band liked it at the time or not. It never it didn't mean it didn't affect me that much because he asked me to produce it with him anyway, So I was

there just the same as usual. It's just the band wasn't there. But it might have been hard on them a little bit, but I think in the long run it worked out good for everybody. Let's go back to the great great songs, right, Let's go back to the very beginning. It's Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, not the Heartbreakers. How did you feel, How did it end? Up having his name at top, and how did the rest of

the band feel about that. Well, I can only speak for myself, but I've talked to them all and they all kind of agree. Up until that point, it was all for one and one for all from Florida, you know, we were all on the same pay grade and sharing everything because we didn't have much to share, you know.

And then as it became obvious that Tom was leading the group, writing most of the songs, seeing the songs um and it became obvious that the best way to present this this uh act is Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, because it really was, That's what it was. And it was a little bit of an adjustment at first, like, Okay, well he's gonna put his name on there, but you know, does he deserve it? Yeah? Are we all gonna do well anyway? Yeah, So we didn't spend much time I'm

worrying about it. Just seemed like a natural progression. And I think the band, like I said, they probably agree with me. You have to ask them. But my ego was not so strong that I felt threatened by it. You know. I thought, well, I'm just happy to be in this band, you know. I get to play guitarget to write songs. I don't really care whose names up there, as long as I get to do what I want to do, you know. So I never I didn't have

a competitive thing about it. I felt, you know, it works if we're all still working together, we're still you know, having success together. I'm fine with it. And looking back on it, I think he deserved it. You know, he was. He was carrying a lot of the weight. He was making a lot of the decisions, management decisions as well. He was leading the group and he had to drive um of leadership that I think he deserved to have his name in on there. And when you played live,

was it an even split? Uh? It was not. It was half and half half of Tom half of the band, and I think that was fair. And at what point did that starter? From the very beginning around Torpedoes. I think it was Elliott Roberts was our co manager of the time, and he came and said, look, guys, we need to make this fair. It's not fair to Tom. You know, he's carrying it. So here's how I think we should go forward. And everybody went, okay, fine, you know,

book some gigs, let's all make some money. So I have you ended up working with Don Henley? Well, I've told that story many times. It was a demo I had uh music and I played it for Tom and Jimmy as we were working on whatever record we were working on at the time, and it didn't really fit that album, and so Tom said, no, I don't I don't know if I hear anything. I said, okay, fine,

I got other stuff. And then Jimmy called me and said, you know that track he played me, Uh, Don Henley's looking for a song for his solo record, And I said, well, was he looking for ballot or a rocker? And he says an image maker? Okay, well if he if you think that track is good. So he set up the meeting. I took it over and played it for Dawn, my little cassette, and he sat there like this, that's with your head down. He listened to the whole thing. He

didn't tap his foot, getting not his head. Got to the end of the song and he goes, okay, thanks, I'll talk to you later. I'll let you know. And I'm driving home and the phone rings and he goes, hey, it's done, because he said, I've just written the best song I've written in the last twenty years to your music. Oh great, okay, let me hear it, you know. So that's how it went. Okay, so you have the demo,

how do you make the ultimate recording? Well, that was hard because the demo was so good, you know, my demos are good, and it was on a four track and he wanted to change the key. So we had to go into studio and recreate the demo, which is always just really hard if you have a demo that's gout survivee and it's just loosen off the cuff and you have to go back and try to recreate that magic that made it great in the first place. That was one of those It was really hard, but we

did finally get it. That took a lot of work. And that stinging the guitar was that also on the demo? Yeah, that I had to relearn that because I had on the demo I had put the guitar on your low dad this year about that there, did you know? Off the off the top of my head, and then of course Don fell in love with those bits, so I had to go back in and relearn what I had done. It was really hard. For me because okay, I guess

comes on one, two, three and dat dada. You know, I had to go back and learn all those little bits, um, which I did get it, but it took some you know, it was some brain work. And in terms of working with other people. Is the phone just ringing? Is it's something that happens occasionally at the time or all of a sudden you have a couple of hits and people ringing your phone off. No, it was occasional, um. You know.

I would get a note sometimes through the office. So and so was interested and if somebody liked to say okay, if not, I'd go never mind, I'm busy. Not as much as you might think, you know. It wasn't ringing off the hook, but occasionally i'd get an interesting call here and there. The other song, of course, it's legendary with Henley is heard of the Matter? What's the story there?

Heart of the Matter? I got up when Marning I was half asleep, and I just went and that's all I had, out of a dream or something, and I thought, well, maybe I'll make a demo out of that, you know, and threw it together. It's very simple music, really, it's so magical. They just come that was a little thing, little out of that grew into that he heard it, he took it into another level. And I remember going to the Forum years later to see Don Lee solo

and they did that song. I'm sitting out in the audience. They did that song and he had a full on chorus singing the backgrounds and it was like a religious experience. It's like God smiled on me, you know. And Uh, I don't know. I almost hate to talk about the mystery or songwriting because I don't want to jinx it. But I think it is a lot of it's just luck and timing and turning your brain off enough to let that little light china for a second. I don't know, man,

you tell me and we'll both know. No, I feel the same way, but in my work. But in any event, Uh, do you play the guitar every day? I do a lot. I mean, are you just leaving the uh you know, recording all the time or you waiting for those bolts of inspiration? How does it go down? You're holding up one of you a portable digital recorder. Yeah. I I am so addicted to writing and I'm so of like, um sensitive to the little the little fairy dust that

might come and might slip away that I have. Little recorders are handy, so if I do get a little piece of something, immediately record it so I don't forget it. It's funny and I don't really agree with what Roy Orbison said, but I asked him once, uh, and there's some something beautiful about what he said. I said, when you're writing songs, do you record the rough ideas so

you don't forget them? He gaes, oh no, I never do that, and he goes, because I figured if I can't remember it, nobody else would have ever remembered it either. But I don't really agree with that, because I found little bits and pieces that I did forget about that we're good. And do you a good judge of your

own material? Yeah? I mean not always In the moment and the moment you go with the muse and you just hope that it will shine on you with something great, and you've always feel like it's the best thing I ever did. And the next day you come back and listen to it and go, U, it's okay, you know, or or else you go, oh no, it's a kink song. I didn't even notice it, you know. Yeah, but uh, but yeah, once I sit back and listen, I'm I'm a pretty good editor of bullshit. Yeah, my own book.

And so now now you're working with Jeff Lynn. To what degree? What do you learn from Jeff Lynn that you don't know already? Oh so much, especially recording technique, um and uh, just so much, says I can't even hardly explain it. The way he records it is very fast and very um um efficient. You know. We come up with a song, uh on the guitar, like they had this song. Uh, that's all there was to it. And Jeff took that and built this whole record out of those two chords, you know, and he did it

with background vocals. I learned so much about background vocals. I learned so much about arrangement. And he plays a lot of the bass himself. He's really good on the base at making the track move just right, and uh, he always has an idea And I learned quickly on the Full Moon Fever record with Jeff around one day he came in and we had started a track the afternoon before, and he came in because a lot of

times with the guitars. I'll make it up on the moment, you know, I'll say, okay, we'll run the track and I'll find something. Jeff doesn't work like that. Jeff works apart out in his head before he gets to the studio. So he came in. He goes, so, Mike, do you have any guitar ideas for this track? And I said, well no, I said, well I do, and he and so he said how about this? And it was this great part. You know. So the next time he asked me,

I said, oh, yeah, I've got some ideas. You're not gonna do that to me again, you know, you gotta so, you know, he was like that. He was just so full of great ideas and he made it fun. He it was so, you know, we cut those records like free phone. He started at noon. By five o'clock is done, background vocals, guitar parts finished. Because he knew how to get things done really quickly and had to put everything in rhythm and grooving and the sounds and the microphone

placements and the parts. And he would coach Tom and how to sing certain lines, and then his background vocal trip is just a whole other thing. I won't get into it, but well, don't get it, get into what is it? Well, at the time. Nowadays you can do it digitally, but at the time, you know Jeff Lynn if you listen to his records, he has a lot of these big background parts that sound amazing, and he

shows us how to do it. And of course even if I tell you how to do it, you won't be able to do it, because it's the way he does it. But basically, at the time, we were on analog, we didn't have digital, and we had a twenty four track machine and then a little mixed down tape machine and said we'd start this song and he hears all the background parts. So say we've got out of twenty four tracks, we've got five or six of the acoustic guitars and a drum ba or whatever the basic format

and live lead vocal. Okay, we'll go to the background parts. So he would find one note in the harmony and he and Tom would go out and sing it together in unison. Okay, double that, Okay, triple that. So you've got three tracks, six voices singing the one note. Okay, now we're gonna do the next note in the chords. Same thing. So by the time you've got a you know, three, three or four note chorus, it's really like twenty voices coming in sounding rich as hell, but it's all sped

across the twenty four tracks. So there's no more room for the music. So what you do, I should take all those voices only blend them, because he knew how to blend them that they would end up right. Copy that down to the two track. It's stereo, okay, Then go back to your master track and bring up two tracks and put the two track and play and push the multi track and record and try to time it right.

Boom right there the chorus comes in all so then and be cause it's on It's cause it's on a metronome. Every chorus is going to be on beat. So you went up to the next course drop these twenty voices. So each time the chorus come by on stereo tracks, you've got, you know, twenty voices in perfect tune and perfectly blended. So all of a sudden, you're a little twenty four tracks sounds huge. You know, that was one trick,

but there's and there's just so many more. I mean, just he was just Brilliant's like going to college working with that guy. I really love and respect him so much. So that record is cut, the Full Moon Fever record long before it comes out. So what's it like when you have something like that and it's sitting in the kids, you detach or you just eager, wait, wait, wait till this record comes out. Well, you know, it's like you were asking before, do you ever know if it's a hit.

You know, we had I Won't Back Down, Love is a Long Road, free Fallen, and whatever else is on that record. Lots of hits on there, and we thought it was pretty good, you know, because we the three of us said, just the three of us basically did it in my bedroom and then we took it over to m c A And played it for him. And well they went over and play it for him, and they came back. They were all depressed to go man, they didn't like it. They don't think there's any hits

on here. They said, go back and cut a hit and then come play it for us. And we were demoralized, like, wow, I guess we're just we don't reclueless. We don't know what a hit is, you know, So okay, they want to hit so we'll do a bird's song that was a hit, feel a whole lot better, So we'll do a hit. You know, they want to hit. We don't know what a hit is. Obviously, we put that on there, and then in the meantime there was some Wilbery's action and the A and R department and m c A

completely turned over. Everybody had left. There was a new group in there. So then we went back in with the same record and play it for him. This this record is six six, six hits deep, you know, and it's like a whole different gang, and they totally got it. So we're just sitting back, Well, what the fund do we know? You know? Good? I hope, I hope it's a hit, you know, And of course it was. But

that's that's that's the movie business. I know. From inside that building, they hoped that record never came out because the deal was so rich, and then ultimately came out it was, you know, a gigantic hit, which was a surprise to them. Now one thing that really blows my that blows my mind, both my mind is stan Lynch gets excise from the band, but he ends up working with Henley and then you're working with Henley. You know do your cross paths? You know, how does that all

go down? It's just incestuous. I don't know, it's just you know, paths cross and I've since recently, I was doing a tour with my band, The Dirty Knobs, and my drummer had a commitment and I had Stan come back in and do a month's worth of days with me and we reconnected. It was beautiful. I really missed playing with him, but yeah, he ended up working with Don. I worked with Don and Da Da Da. I don't know,

it's just l a music scene. He know, you crossed paths and somebody says you want to do this, Okay, let's try it, and the next thing you know, you're into it. You know. So the Greatest Hits album comes out? Whose idea is it to do something in the air. It had to be Tom because we did Mary James Last Dance, which is a new song. We did discuss like, if we're gonna play out the greatest Hits, let's at least put a new song that might be a hit, a new hit, so we're not just read regurgitating the

old stuff. And Tom wrote that great song. You know, Mary James Last Dance, and then we needed another one for the B side, and he just I think it was him, He said, let's just try that Thurner clap new one song, excuse me, and we we recorded those two songs for that album, and Lo and behold, Mary james Last Dance is one of our biggest songs. That's Lucky again. He's phenomenal. I mean, the song is phenomenal.

How much is the guitar part yours or how much was that in the original demo he brought on Mary Jay's Last Dance. It's kind of both of us, uh Dann down down. We both played that together. I think he had the first idea for it, and then I did my uh arrangement of it, and I think at the end, let Tom play a little Chuck Barriers solo on it. I played the middle solo. It was a I think he had the original idea of the riff, but it was kind of a group effort to make it say on the way that it did. And Stan

played on that record. That was the last thing we did with him, I guess. So how did you feel when the centuries changed? Napster comes along? Suddenly rock is no longer the dominant format. What was that Your perspective on all that, Well, it's the same as is now. Who the funk knows? You know, it's a crazy business, you know. I remember when the uh, during the empty V days, there's a point there where video games became real popular, and like, video games are gonna take over.

There'll be no more rock and roll music. It's all about video games. That's when we did that. You got Lucky video, He beats the video the game Shane to death because we were making a statement against all that. So, I don't know. Throughout the decades, the business just mismorphed, you know. It's like and now it's streaming and vinyls

coming back a little bit. Cassettes are coming back a little bit, but CDs are hanging in there, but they're streaming, and who knows how you don't really get paid as you should on streaming. I'm not really deep into it, but I know that it's always changing, you know, and uh, I have no control over it. I'm just gonna make the music and hope that somebody will pay me for eventually. So you accept these changes because a lot of people of our age you were successful, resisted these changes. Well,

what good does it do you to resist that? You know, you can't stop it. The genies out of the bottle, you know. I just look at it like that's gonna be what it's gonna be. Ill probably changed, you know, eight times more before I die. But I'm just gonna make the music, you know, and somebody will find a way to to put it out and I can always

play live. But there's no point agonizing over it. I mean, just it's a little weird at first when it seemed like, well, nobody's buying records anymore, nobody's buying CDs anymore, and it's all free on the internet, and that was like, it's kind of weird. But what can you do, you know, it's the wild West. You just, you know, keep making your music and hope that the powers that be will find it a channel for it. You know. Playing the Super Bowl good or bad experience. It was a great experience.

It was. It was bad for me because I I had a mishap with my back. I was in so much pain. I pulled my lower back. I had to take like six ad bill to get through the show. But it was very stressful, but it was great. And what was great about for me too, is it was on my birthday, as it turned out, and my all my kids were there. So dad was playing at the Super Bowl. You know, I'm up there with my ad like, well, I can get through here. But I was proud because

my my family was there cheering for me. And it's you know, the NFL. I mean that's a big that's a big monster, and there was a lot of people. But it was exciting. I actually enjoyed it. A lot of preparation, a lot of work. What was the preparation, Well, we had to learn the songs and uh, figure out the staging and this and that, and uh, you know, be at our best and just you know, the NFL, they're just they're just you know, slave drivers. You know, they had their rules we had to follow and this

and that. I don't want to get into it, but it was a lot of work, but it paid off and it's over. You know, you do like weeks of work to get it to try to be this one moment you get ninety million people around the world, six minutes is over. Okay, Well there it was, but I think did as well. It raised our profile a little bit. You know, so you have the final tour with Tom. You know, there's a lot of stuff written in retrospect. He was in pain. He was doing it for everybody else.

Did you have any foreshadowing or this was just another tour in your particular mind. He was not doing it for everybody else. He was doing it for himself. He told me, you know, straight to my face, Look, you know, I've got some issues, a little bit of pain. But you know, throughout his whole career he had this kind of pain or that kind of pain. And so I just thought, well, yeah, he said, just dealing with some stuff.

You're getting older. And he said, he said, but I'm gonna do this tour if I have to sit in a wheelchair, because I want to do it, you know. And so it's like, okay, if you're that gung ho, I'm not going to question You'll be there for you, you know, ste it. And so he wanted it, and he wasn't doing it for anybody else but himself. And did he have a foreshadowing? I don't think. So it was a mishap. I just to sit. We had talked

about what we're gonna do next. We're gonna do with some more gigs, make another record, put out the film We're Live, and just keep on going like we always did. Uh. So there was no foreshadowing that this was going to be the last time we ever play. And the paint thing, I knew he was, you know, dealing with it, and

he had to take some paint colors. But he'd always had stuff throughout all the years, you know, his voice would go out and he had to take a steroid shot for the gig or this, or his hip was bothering and his knee was bothering. So to me, it was just like, oh, well, it's just another aches and pains along the way, you know. That's the way that we all looked at it. How did you find out

that he was rushed to the hospital. I got the phone call from his daughter like four in the morning, and uh, I was shocked, you know, and stunned, it's the best word I can think of. I rushed down there, but he was already kind of on life support at that point. But I had a moment to just sit and talk to him. I don't know if he heard me or not. I think he probably did, but he

didn't respond. It was just horrible. He should still be here except for a mishap, um misjudgment of this this this medication or that medication that was a cloudy decision at some point that uh worked against him, or else he'd still be here. So this all goes down shockingly, And are you stunned and can't play guitar or you go back to your routine? How do you metabolize this terrible event? No, the music is always a place to go in good times were bad times that it's a

safe place. I can pick up the guitar and I can ease my pain or I can celebrate my joy, you know. So I certainly never stopped playing guitar, and never even once a question that I wouldn't keep on making music. But you know, it's something like that, I'm still greeting. I'll be greeting the rest of my life, you know. Uh, that's how big it was. But I can't just quit, you know, I've got to have my music. I gotta carry on. And I think probably what he

would do it was the other way around. So no, you know, I had a couple of days of cloudiness, but then I just pick up the guitar and soothe my soul, you know, like I always do. So how did the Fleetwood Mac thing come together? Out of the blue? Uh? I was planning on just getting ready to record my album with the Dirty Knobs, and we were going to record it and you know, do what we're doing now.

And I got a phone call. I think it was on my birthday again, and Mick called me and said, uh, that Lindsay's left the band and would you like to join, you know, And Uh, I said, give me twenty four hours to think about it, because it was a big decision. I thought they wanted to make a record and you know, but it turns out they had a bunch of tour requirements, which so I signed on for that. I thought it over and I have nothing but the greatest respect for Lindsay.

And it was a little awkward for me to learn someone else's guitar parts, but those songs really do require those parts that need to be played. I did the best I could, and I think I honored them well. And of course I'm not here, and I did it my own way, but I did it as close to the songs I thought I could get it. And it was a great tour and uh, my wife went with me. We saw the world in a year and a half,

and unfortunately the Knobs waited for me. They were curacious enough to let me have this moment and it was you know, the Fleetwood Mac treated me really good, you know, in always and it was a lot of fun. And uh, now it's over. You know, it's like, I guess that's something that happened in the past. So weird, how time

does that. So when Mick gets ahold of you, was deal Finn already in No, No, they were, we were, they asked me, and then we were throwing We were having sessions to talk about who could we get, you know, and who would be a good singer. And uh, it turns out Mick new Neil and I was in Hawaii rehearsing with them, and so we called him in and he came up from New Zealand and he and I got along great and he was a great fill in.

You know, he did a great job. It was a tough spot to stand there and sing those songs, harder than me for to have to play the guitar parts, but he did great and I love the guy. So what was the difference, if any, being on the stage with Fleetwood Mac as opposed to Petty, well, I wasn't playing my own songs. That was awkward for me to not play songs I wrote or that I'm involved with

the records. It was new, uh to me to be up there and playing you know, their songs, although they did let me do uh oh, well, I got to sing that one, which is really fun. I got to sing in the arena for the first time. Not much singing on that song, but still I got to do it.

And uh, aside from that, it was, you know, business as usual, you know, they they travel first class, was we had the private plane as the Heartbreakers did, and all the nice hotels and big gigs and you know, a great crew, and it was just kind of like walking off the stage under that stage, except I'm playing their songs instead of mine, you know, and the audience is similar or more passive, more enthusiastics. No, they're pretty similar. I mean, they love Stevie. Every time she would walk out,

they would go crazy, you know. Uh, you know, a big crowd like that. It's just such a big mob of noise, you know it all. I never thought about it being different. It just seemed like they're they're digging it, they're Loud, same as usual. So how did you end up working with Stevie to begin with? On Bella Donna

was at an irving connection. Yeah, yeah, well, Ivan had We had two song stop Dragging My Heart Around, which I had written with Tom that for some reason, Jimmy's heard it as uh a duet, which I think he was right. It's a great duet song, and he was doing Stevie's records, so he convinced Tom to let her

have that song without asking me. I thought I would have agreed with it, you know, but uh, and you know, and so I get to know her through that and we you know, over the years we've written some songs and we have a great relationship. I love her and so the tour end. Do you ever hear from Mick or any of those people again? Yeah, I I occasionally we talk now and then I'm not lately in a while. I haven't talked to Neil in a long time. But occasionally I'll get a text, you know, here and there

from Mix and hey, how you doing. I'm in Hawaii and you know, but I don't really know. I mean, we left the Fleetwood Mac project. We had a meeting and decided that we would take a quite a long break to rest because it was a long tour and you know, it was a little hard on Christine and John, who were having a little minor medical issues to do

all that traveling. So the idea was, you know, I didn't break up officially, but it was like, let's just take a hiatus and everybody rest, and if Stevie wanted to do her own tour and get for a couple of years to do that, and everybody take a couple of years. By then we're all a lot older even, and so that's kind of how it's left. I kind of doubt that that that'll if it does stir up, that it will include me. But it might have been, might be a shift that's already sailed. I don't know.

It's not up to me, Okay. So that brings us to the dirty knobs. So to what degree were you inspired to record make records because Tom had passed or would you have done that anywhere? Well? I think I would have done it anyway, because it's a it's a way for your musician to grow. You know, if you always play with the same five guys, it can get stale and no matter how good they are, and Uh, I started recording in the studio with these guys for fun,

and then we liked it. So we went out and started playing a few bars us to try out new songs, and I found I really liked it. I like being in front of the band and Ian. I like doing my own songs. And I realized that Tom there's no way Tom was going to be able to write to all of them because I write so too much and he was overwhelmed with it, you know. So I figured, if unless I did these songs, you're just gonna end up in a on a shelf somewhere. So I might as well just do them and see what I can

do with them. And so I started to enjoy doing that. And then when Tom passed, I figured, well, this is what I want to do, my own songs with my own band, and start over at the bottom and wip my way up as far as I can. So how did you collect the members of the Dirty Knobs? Well? I just met them. I didn't I didn't search for a band. They were just guys that knew friends of mine.

It would come over to the studio and we'd record for fun, and it just sort of evolved into we like playing together and it became a band very organically. It was not an audition or a search. It just they just appeared. And do you have a studio with out to the house. I do. I'm in it right now. We're I record records here and I've done a lot of heartbreaker stuff here over the years. It's a great studio and I love it's my man cave. How extensive is it, well, it's It's just big enough for a

four piece band. There's a control room with you know, state of the art gear. There's a drum room. There's a medium sized drum room, and then there's a lounge where I'm in now, which is a piano room for guitar amps. And the great thing about my studio is because I've learned over the years had to get a good sound. My sound is all up. It's tredy to go. I gotta do is push a button and the drums

are on. Push your button, the bases on. I don't have to move mics around or try this room or that room, and so I don't have to worry about the sounds. I know that they sound good and I could just go in and start and work on the music, you know, and so it's really nice. Does anybody else work there other than you? Uh? Well, no, I suppostly just for me. I've done. I did a Marty Stewart record here. Occasionally I'll have someone over and I'll work with them, but mostly it's my own songs in my

own band, and it's all pro tools. I do have pro tools as well as analog, but the analog has become so cumbersome that I mostly work on the pro tools. Now, the pro tools has advanced to the point. You know, when I convinced myself that I was okay with pro Tools is when Jeff Lynn signed off on it. Because when it first came out, it was a little dodgy sounding and you could put it. You can definitely hear analog. Put them side by side, and you can definitely hear it.

Now they've got the converter is really good, and it's like Jeff was saying, you can blindfold me. I could probably tell, but it would be really, really hard, So I don't think he even bothers with the tape anymore. And tape is hard to get now, and it's just like I said, it's cumbersome. And the pro Tools is instant recall, and so yeah, I work on that. Occasionally we'll mix on the analog just to get some glue, but even that's kind of redundant nowadays. And are you

computer savvy? You can run all this stuff pretty well yourself. No, I'm not computer savvy, but I know enough. I treat my pro Tools like a tape machine, you know, And I have my need console, and I know where all the inputs are, not got the sounds up, and I don't If the pro Tools breaks, I'm lost, you know. I know just enough to hit record and play and solo a track or move this over there, you know. Um. But I try to look at like a tape recorder, you know. That's sorry. I just like I would if

it was an analog machine. I kind of visualize it that way, and that's how I use it. But I don't get into the bells and whistles or details. I'm not that savvy. So how many times did the Dirty Knobs play out live before this latest push? Well, we used to play quite a lot. I mean on the breaks of the Heartbreakers, you know, we'd play, you know,

for a couple of months. You might play four or five six gigs here and there, and then I do a tour with the band, I come back and then we throw a few gigs together, you know, quite a bit over. You know, we've been about twenty years or so really that we've known each other, so we're pretty we're pretty much a seasoned band. It isn't like a thrown together new thing. And how did Klaus Warman end up doing the cover of the first album. Well, uh,

my wife's assistant is a German lady. Her name is Alex and she used to work for him over in Germany and she we were doing the cover and she said, well, you should check with Klaus. I said, as he still around and he still works. He said yeah, So on her recommendation we contacted him. I never spoke to him personally, but the office. I told him I wanted to train, you know, and with a with a cross bars and a guy on with a hat blowing off his head

or whatever. And he did the whole thing himself. But I was tickled to have Klaus Warman's name on there, and he did a good job. And how did you end up working with George Droculius. Well, i'd worked with George through Rick Rubin on some of the Heartbreakers records, and he always just impressed me with his energy and it's nohow but and he such a great vibe and he was my first choice. I knew I needed a producer.

I didn't want to produce it myself. I needed a perspective and George was a perfect guy to bounce things off of. So that was George's main role, to be a sounding board or what else did George had? Well, he did everything mostly he put everybody in a good mood and made everybody play to their best of their ability.

But he was also helpful with arrangements. And he was really helpful with me because I had too many songs, and he helped me zero in and well, you know this, these these fifteen songs sound like you know, the band would be all on one record would be these you could use later or something. They're in a different vibe. So he helped me zero in on what would make a good band record, you know, where everything fit together as a package. And uh, he's really good with getting

the tracks done quick. We didn't spend much time tracking. He puts everybody in a great mood and he's like a cheerleader. But he's really smart too. If something's off, he'll zero and go we gotta fix that, you know. But he's invaluable. I wouldn't want to make a record without him. So you make the first record and then covidiots. So how did that? How did that mess up your

plans completely? Like everybody else in the world. Yeah, we were all set to go, and then we had to just pull back and held the record back, you know, as long as we could. And everybody had to rethink their lives, you know, and we kind of I stayed off the road and I stayed home for the first year. I didn't want to go outside at all. But I use that time to write and uh this and that, and you know, things are starting to open up a little bit. It was scary though, and plus at the beginning,

everybody was dying. You know, It's like it's a death sentence. And once we got the vaccine and you could at least figure out if I get it, at least I can get over it. You know, I'm not gonna be in a corpse. But it was scary for everybody, you know, but we got through it. We just waited, you know, patiently, and put it out and we could. I have a great record company, BMG. They were very good with just waiting and being supportive and sticking with us through all that.

And have you gotten COVID? I did. I got it. My wife and I got it about five months ago now, and uh, I had the vaccine. It was not bad for me at all. I mean, some people have had it, you know. I felt like I had a cold or maybe a mild flu. I've had flues that were worse. It lasted about a day and a half and then my nose a little clogged up, and then I got over it. You know, it was it was kind of

great to get over it. It It was like, Okay, I don't have to worry about that I might getting I might get it again, but I've already had it, so it's not that fear. You know, you know how you got it? I don't know. I have no idea it could have been from try to think. I remember. I know we were hanging out with the grandkids who had been going to school, but they didn't get it at that time. They could have passed it on to us. But although we were wearing masks and being careful, I

really don't know. It's just I think it was just in the air. A lot of people get it and they don't know where they got it. You know, it's just swimming around out there, so watch out. And now it's monkey pops. Don't get the monkey pops. So you make the first record, COVID comes along. How do you decide to make a second record before you've even been out really to promote the first record? Because I had the songs and I love recording. You know, I've got

enough songs for two more albums. I can't wait. I'm just December. I'm gonna record another album. You know, when your songs are there, you want to put them on tape and then as soon as it's a record. You know, if if the record company could find a window to stick you in there, there you go. But I'll make them whether they put them out or not. You know, I just love it. I love the process. Okay, So if one listens to your records, they are great rock records in a world where rock does not have that

much presence. How do you feel about that? I kind of wear that as a badge of honor, you know what I mean. All through my career, you know, there's been like you know, uh, you know, all the boy bands that come along or the hip hop and all that stuff, and rock is dad, it's over. It's all about you know, rap or whatever, and then that would die out and rock is just always kind of still

kind of bubbling under the surface. And I wear it as a badge of honor that we're a rock and roll bands and a boogie boogie rock and roll band with good songs, and that's what I grew up on, and I think at this age I can represent that music really truthfully. You know. I hear a lot of young bands trying to play rock and roll and it's just it's not They don't they don't understand the feel I do. You listen to the record to hear that immediately, Well,

that's that's why we're offering, you know. If that's what you like, that's what we are. If you don't like it, then you can go listen to Harry Styles. I love Harry Styles, but it's got nothing to do with with

my my music in my direction. But I'm honest to what I am, you know, and I know if I know from being on tour, the a lot of people out there still love that kind of music, and they love to hear it from I think I'm pretty close to the true source of say Chuck Berry or whatever, or Muddy Waters or whoever, or even the sixties bands. I can get inside that because I was there as part of my d n A and so I feel I can. I can share this with people. If that's what they want to hear, come to me. I'll give

you the real thing, you know. And do you listen to new music or just try? I try, you know, but I always get I'm I don't know, man. You know. It's I grew up the Beach Boys, the Beatles and Stones and Zombies, the Kinks, animals, you know, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Michael Bloomfield. I grew up around all that music, you know. And so I hear a new band. I might be on the on the in the car driving and hearing that's kind of catchy. I like that, you know.

And then I'll get home and I'll tell me, oh, I heard this, this this cool song, but and she goes, how did it go? And I go, H, well, it had a good drum sound back in the day, Back in the day. If I'm driving home and I hear you really got me or satisfaction. By the time I get home, I can sing it to you, you know the song. I mean, it's just because I'm old and I'm an old geezer, but those songs to me are better.

They're memorable you hear them one time. Nowadays it's all production and sounds and and grooves, and you know, I don't know just I can't grab onto it. I try. I keep trying to find a new band, but none of them. I always go back. I'd rather I'd rather hear the animals. You know, there are the yard person. That's the stuff that I like to, you know better, So I go back and listen to old records. I guess I'm just doomed that way. Okay, And you know

we have this whole COVID interruption. But as you've gotten older, do you find you stay home or do you still go out? I'm talking to not when you're working, when you're home, and right, No, we've opened up a little bit. And we went out to a restaurant the other day. You know, I wear my mask and took it off. I was eating and uh, I don't go to concerts or clubs but I don't. I don't think i'd go anyway unless there's somebody I really wanted to see, which

there usually isn't. I don't, uh, I don't know. I'm kind of a homebody anyway. So in a lot of ways, the COVID wasn't that hard for me, because I still I gotta stay home and work in my studio and play with my dogs. Okay, I'm fine with that. You know, I don't need the roar of the crowd to to feel good inside. So but I'm not afraid to go out to a store or to the restaurant or you know, I'm not afraid of it anymore like I used to be. But I'm cautious, you know, I want to be. I

got I have gigs to do. I don't want to screw up my gigs, so i'd be careful. So what are the preparations and rules you use on the gigs so that people don't get infected? Well? I leave that A lot of that up to the to the clubs and the promoters. They have their own protocols for the audience. You know, at some places require a test, some places suggest a mask. Are our crew at this point of all, uh, pretty well had it and are over it. But we still wear masks and but we're not you know, hardcore.

You don't come near me unless you show me your test. You know. We kind of it's kind of on a honor system around my band and according to the you know, the promoters rules. Like with Price Stapleton when we were upening for him, he had a protocol every Thursday, everybody gets a test, you know, which is fine. We did that and then he ended up getting it, so God bless him. He got over it. But it's awkward because nobody really knows. Are these this is really keeping me safe?

This is mask really keeping me? Would I get it anyway? I'll take my chances and wear it just to be safe. But you know, I don't really know, you know. So that's the way I look at it. Honor system and just common sense and uh, I keep in mind all the time. But on touring, like you know, I've got a lot of gigs book and I've got these gigs coming up opening for the Who, and I don't want to screw that up, you know, So I'm gonna be real careful so that I'm healthy and my band is healthy.

So that we don't have to cancel the gig. You know, how did you get the gig opening for The Who? And do you know those guys? I don't know them. It's it's my it's my luck, man, I don't know like Fleetwood Mac the Who stuff is pot Tom these songs, I feel sometimes I feel like I the most blessed guy on the universe. It dropped in our lap. We

started this tour. We're playing little bars, and we're moving up to theaters, like we're moved up to the film where we could play there now headline and maybe the will turn here. So we're starting to get a little bit up above the CD bars into theaters. And then one day I just got the call like there's an opening slot here. Are you interested? I said, and I addressed sign me up, man. I want to stand on this side of the stage and watch Pete Townsend play.

You know, absolutely, we'll play on before them, and it's we're the only other band, so we're second on the bill and they're being really nice to us. I don't know how we got that gig, just you know, a gift from God. I don't know, man, And how do you know Stapleton uh. He called me. I had uh uh scene. I had met him briefly once when the Heartbreakers are playing rigley Field and he was opening, and he walked by and said, hi, Mike. And so, as it turns out, now I'm gonna be playing rigley Field

opening for him. That's fine. But he called me up on a break and said he was writing some songs. Would you like to try and write? And I don't usually do that because I'm right alone. And he came over and we spent a couple of days and we wrote some songs together and we became friends. And so he he was so cute. He goes like, well, and he knew I was putting out a record. I had got him just singing on one song, and he's a

big fan of mine. Uh and uh, he says, you know, I don't want I don't mean any disrespect, but I've got some some gigs coming up, and if you want to be on the bill, I could put you on the tour opening. I said, sure, I'll take it. So you know, he was really kind to give me those slots. And you know, Stapleton is like the great White Hope in Nashville, which is certainly pretty white. Have you uh been invested or checked out the Nashville scene or not? And he takes on what's going on there. Well. I

think he is the cream of the crop. Him and Memago Price, who I've also gotten to know. I love both of them. I think Chris is we got one of those Roy Orbison type boy is where it's just a gift. And I've you know, playing these gigs with him. I watch him. He just stands there. He doesn't run around, he doesn't wave his arms. He just opens up his mouth and people are enthralled. He's got a gift of

a voice and a good soul. He comes from a very soulful, believable personality, and so does Margot I'm aware of through them. I where it's a little bit of the country stuff. I don't like modern country, rock and roll, poppy country. You know. Once again, if I want to hear country music, I'm gonna go listen to George Jones or Tammy Whine or Patsy Klein. You know, Margot Price, I would put her in there. But I don't know if any other new artists that that impressed me as

much as Chris. I think he's heading shoulders above most of them. But I don't listen that much, you know. I have I have Serious Radio, I have Tom Petty Radio, and I have Deep Tracted and I have Outlaw Country. So I I checked those from time to time and if somebody looks interesting, I'll click on it. But I don't follow country music per se, but I do prefer the older stuff. Okay, what's it like, It's Todd Rundgan putted, going back to the bars. Well, it's it's wonderful. It

is an ego check for me. Um. You know, I'm flying on commercial flights in the airports. I'm not on the private plane. You know, I'm driving in a van. I don't have a limo, I don't have all those the trappings. But I love the small rooms musically, I just and I love seeing the people and I drive up and it's it's my name, my band on there, you know, and I'm really proud. And I'm really proud

too that it's growing. You know. We're playing some smaller places this year, but we're already getting offers for some festivals coming up later. And like I said, the Filmore and the Wiltern and some theaters. So my, my goal is to get move up through the bars to the theaters and I could see who's going to happen in the meantime. Uh, I love it. You know, the music is so much better in a room of four hundred

to eight hundred people. Everybody's in on it. I can see their faces and I'm can interact with the crowd. When you get into the big thing, it's like this big sea of of there's a crowd out there. It's just a big sea of you know, uh, collage of people when you're in the club there right there, and you can really, you know, tune in with them and they could feel the music, you can feel them back.

So going back to the bars is really fun, you know, as long as I know I'm not gonna be stuck there the rest of my life because I am a little spoiled, you know, and I want the guys. I want the guys to to take to move up and get a taste of it. You know, it makes some money, which would be nice and make me happy to see

them make some money. And to what degree are you finding that these audiences know them at two real or just coming because you're Mike Campbell A lot I see a lot of people singing along to uh, you know some of the tracks on the album that I wouldn't think that they would know those words, but you know, and there's a lot of people that know who I am from the Heartbreakers, and I do occasionally do a Heartbreaker song here and there, and especially when I had

stand on the drums, we did some Heartbreakers songs here and there. It was really emotional and people loved it. But they love our music too, you know, they sing along and there there is it's I'm so grateful that they they they're so excited, you know, and their their eyes are so full of joy, and I feel like, you know, I have the best job in the world. Okay. One of my favorite stories is I'm in Minneapolis and def Leopard and Brian Adams run a baseball tour baseball

stadium toward minor league parks, and they switch openers. In this particular day, Brian Adams is the opener, so he's playing when it's when there's still sunlight out and he's playing along. I'm on the side of the stage and he turns around to the rest of the band, holds up the set list, rips it in half. And then I see him literally win over the audience and the time that's left to what degree do you feel that

need into what degree? I mean, when you're top any of the Heartbreakers, the audience is already convinced, right right right. I like the challenge. And uh, it's interesting you had mentioned that because on some of these gigs with Chris Stapleton and some of the the sheds where they have the lawn and the seats. Uh I I remember when the Heartbreaker used to play those. I used to feel so sorry for the opening ask because there'd be nobody there and I go, oh, I feel so so bad

for them, you know. And I was ready for that when we started doing these opening shows. But you know, I believing or not, a lot of people showed up early, and I don't know who. I maybe as a country artistist artists bring people in earlier. I don't know where they came to see me. Some of them I don't know. But we were blessed with pretty good audiences. But I love the challenge of winning them over. Um and uh, I call attention to the fact, you know, a lot

of those shows. I'll start with running down a Dream, I'll go I might camera with the Dirty nil as we said, I'm like this, here's an old song, and so I think I can see them kind of going, oh, wait a minute, I think that's the guys in that band. I think that's the guy that does that song. You know,

he's doing it now. And then we do some of our songs, and then uh, we have I have a version of refugee that I do this like a waltz that's a Irish waltz field for the words are real upfront and powerful, and I get and the audience sings along, you know, and I end a song go and I start saying, don't have to live like a refugee, and I walk away from the mic and they keep singing and I end with them singing the last line all by themselves and I say good night. And I love

winning them over, you know. And it's a challenge, but I found I can do it. You know. I'm really kind of learning how to tune into them and pull them in with saying the right things at the right time and the right song at the right time. And confidence. You know, I've got my confidence now that I could walk out to a crowd that some of them may not know who I am and convince them to like me,

you know, and to what degree to the set list change? Well, if it's a dirty knob some of the places we play our gigs, and I change it quite a bit, you know, on the Chris Staples and stuff, especially when Margaret Prices out. She would come out in the middle of our set and do the song state of mind,

what she's saying on our record with us. So I've only got five songs, so I kind of keep it, and I changed one or two songs here and there, but I kind of keep it to what works because I'm the opening act, you know, I don't want to just go start going deep track. I'm trying to win these people over, you know, in five songs. So I give them a heartbreaker song and some of ours and then closed with a heartbreaker song. So I keep that pretty well set. But with my band, we always change

the setup. We got a lot of songs and lots of covers, and you know, I have a you know, a handful of heart baker songs I can throw in now and then for fun, and I love doing those, most of them ones that I wrote, you know, and so um it's interesting I found that our dirty Knobs songs hold up really well in these gigs alongside the big songs, so that's encouraging. And uh yeah. And one of the criticisms of my head of the Heartbreakers is we get our show not very that much. But I

so I'd like to change the set, you know. I like to surprise the band so they don't know what song is coming next. Or sometimes I'll just call an audible, I go forget that song on the list, We're gonna play this one, and they'll go like, but then you've got them, you know, you got them tuned in. You know, how how hard are you willing to work? How hard am I willing to work? Like? You know, the old days you start out, you played two It in fifty dates a year. I'm sure you don't want to play

Twitter in fifty dates. No, I'm down. I'm working. I'm out there. I told you book a gig, I'll be there. You know. I want to I want these records to get hurt. I want people to know that we're here and I'm still young enough to do it, you know, barely, But I want to work, you know. I think we might go to Europe. Next year and I'm I'm I'm down.

And my wife and I now travel together so that's easier, and she's into it, and we want to go out, and uh, I really enjoy this part of our life, you know, and I want to work hard, you know, I have I know this guy who has led Zeppelin's photographer back in the film Days, and he said, I've been around the world multiple times and I've seen nothing. Are you the type of guy who takes advantage or you're just going from the hotel room to the hall. Well, Um,

it depends on how much time. If that I got a day off, we try to find something to do. The great thing about the Fleetwood Mac tour is there several days off and you might be in Belgium, or you might be in Sydney, or you might be in Dublin, and you got a day or two off, you know, and we would go out and do stuff. You know, you would go to museums or go, uh take a train ride and go shopping, or go out to different restaurants,

or go out and see the you know, architecture. Um. I like to get out if there's time, and I had as long as I get enough rest and get out and and take it all in, you know. But I know what he means. A lot of heart packers tours. You know. We went through the city and I didn't even see anything, you know, I saw the hotel in the in the car in the state. But now I like to I like to take up the culture of

wherever I am. We just played the Knobs played up in Napa Valley at this beautiful old theater called Uptown Theater as great old Pricenium Hall, and we were driving through the town. I was wishing we'd have had more days off because it was a beautiful little town, you know, really parks and lakes and cool buildings and shopping. But we didn't have time to take it all in. But generally, yeah,

we wanna, we wanna, you know, experience everything. Okay, you've done a great description of the live act and enticing people to go. If for those people who are gonna start with the records, tell them how they should get started, well by them and listen to them. I don't I don't know what you mean. I mean, there's too well, you know, there's two albums. We live in an era where people have streaming and there's you know, you can

pick and choose the tracks. Certainly Spotify will tell you what's most played, and then they have the albums or they're one or two songs. People say start here. No, I wouldn't do that. I would just say just just dig in and and if you like it, listen to it. You know, if you don't like it, skipped to the

next one. I don't know, that's up to them. But I think all the stuff, all all the songs and all the albums are indicative of the of the dirty knobs, and they're you know, they're all good in their own way, you know. And Ian Hunters on one of the tracks, how did that do? You can start with that one? It's a dirty job. That's a good one. Uh. That was that was another thing fell on my lap. I've never met the guy, but he was gracious enough to just sing. He sent me a couple of tracks that

he was working on, which are great. By the way, up start at the very beginning. How did you make contact? He called the office and asked if I would be interested and overdubbing some guitar and some new songs, and of course I said yes. I'm a huge fan of Matt the Hoople and that he they sent the in the mail, came over these tracks and might put him up in my session, put my guitars on and sent him back to him and he loved it. Well, actually he sent one. He liked it so much he sent

me another song. And then I was getting a little brave and said, well, would you consider maybe singing one of our songs? I didn't think he would, but he said sure. So I sent him over the song dirty Job, and he'd sing a verse and put some piano on it. And I can't wait to meet him and thank him in person. But yeah, that's a good place to start. If you like Matt the Hoople, go for that song.

And when you're on stage, it's a friend perception that when you're in the audience and you know when you're great, and you know when you're off a little bit, even though the audience may still enjoy it. What are one or two gigs that you've played, whether it be the Knobs, Fleetwood Mac or Tom Petty Go that really stand out in your brain? Well, Um, Madison Square Garden with the Heartbreakers a couple of times there. I was very spiritual.

Royal Albert Hall I've always loved playing there. It just has an ambiance to it, the Hollywood Bowl. You know, it's ironic about the Hollywood Bowls. That's the last show I played with Tom, and I remember leaving thinking I'll never be back here again. And I'm going back to open for the Who at the Hollywood Bolts, our last show together. So that's a great place to play. Uh. Those are the first ones that popped to my mind. Yeah, and how about the opposite? A couple of gigs that

you've been to that that I liked other bands you? Oh? Uh? Well, I saw it led Zeppelin back in the Atlanta Pop Festival and whenever that was when? Uh, that was impressive. I've seen the Beach Boys back in the day a few times and they always blew me away. Um. Neil Young, I've seen him a couple of times out here in l A from time to time. He's always great. Um, those are the first thing that popped in my mind. Well, Mike, I want to thank you for taking the time. This

has just been riveting. I could talk to you for days. Thanks for being so forthcoming. Thank you. I'm I'm a very grateful person and I have a right to be, you know, but thank you for your time. You asked the good questions and I hope I didn't go off on too many tangents, but I think it was good. No, you know, digression is a spice of life, and I feel lucky that I've been able to have this conversation with you. Until next time, This is Bob leff sett h