Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcast. My guest today is Michael McDonald, who has a new autobiography, What a Fool Believes. Michael, you reveal so much truth in the book, an he regrets.
No, I mean not yet anyway. It's funny, you know, every time someone says that to me, I kind of crange a little bit, thinking, well, what did I say? Because I didn't think I was all that revealing. Most people who knew me at all, you know, probably had some idea that I was a little left of center for a while there, you know, But I felt like if I was going to tell my story, I needed to be as honest as I could about you know, addiction and things like that that I probably would have
not talked about I've had. I been doing just an op ed about my experience as a musician, but this being a personal memoir, it seemed like it was it kind of was incumbent on me to say something about my personal life that would be would cast a little bit of a different light on all of it.
Well, definitely cast a different light. You're always the guy who's very dignified. A lot of people have no idea including myself. Now, you know, there's been a lot of publicity, but let's go through it.
Anyway.
You wrote the book with Paul Rise or exactly how is it inspired?
Well, I would have to give Paul most of the credit for that. We've known each other about twenty years, and you know, Paul is by nature, he's one of those guys that, uh, he's you know, he's a writer himself. Uh, he's hearing screenplays, books, uh, you name it. Uh uh developed TV shows, movies and characters in movies. So his interest in people in general is the very nat comes very natural. You know, he's he's one of those guys that's likely to kind of know what makes you tick,
just out of his own curiosity. And so as friends, we we you know, he was always Uh. We met at a party years ago and wound up back at his house playing music in his studio till we ours and uh we found out that we both really loved the Beatles and uh in Botown and all the stuff that we we had grown up listening to. Uh and
uh he kind of came to it. Our conversations were kind of steered towards, oh, you know, things like got the Beatles bridges on their songs, you know, from this album to that album that had the greatest bridges and all their songs. We started kind of replaying those memories of you know, those songs and what great bridges they had, stuff like that, you know, kind of musing uh uh conversation. And and from that point we we we were friends.
And he would always come here us play when I was when we played in town, and I actually came up and played with us on stage. Paul's a great, very accomplished piano player, and uh he said, I dare say, much better pianel player than I. But we uh so we we always we had that in common, music in common from the get go, and uh, you know, but his interest in a lot of what what went on with Steely Dan and groups like that were as interesting to him as say, our conversations were about the Beatles
and stuff. Can't we any any inside stuff we could? Uh? We heard or said. We would always share, you know, about the bands we liked. But he was always very interested in stealing Dan, Donald and Walter and the Dubies, Pat and Tommy and all. How all that happened, and seemingly at the same time. At one point he said to me, you know, you should write a book so I can stop pestoring you with all these questions. And I said, well, you know, I thought about it, but
I'm not sure how I would even do that. I've written a little bit of you know, op ads for magazine and stuff, or short stories, but I you know, I don't think I could take on a book and really know what I was doing. He goes, well, I've written a few, so let me help you, you know, if you're up for it. So I thought, well, how lucky am I in this moment to have Paul Riser of all people, offer to help me write this book. And that alone made me think, well I should do it.
You know, whether I was apprehensive about it or not, I couldn't tell you. I kind of was, you know, because immediately you start to think about on your life and you go, well, how would I talk about this, or how would I talk about that? Or who would I talk about? Who would I you know, uh, you know, how would I be careful not to throw anyone under
the bus for any reason? However inadvertently, you know, because it's you know, you always have to be careful when you're telling your story, you know, because it involves other people, and you want to be cognizant and you know, sure not to throw anybody under the bus, like I say,
even if you don't mean to, you know. So there was a lot of fact checking, and there was a lot of stuff that Paul was unbelievably helpful with and not to to say not the least which almost in every aspect of writing the book, we kind of edited as we went, you know, and he was uncanny with his ability to like, you know, well, hey, you know this should go This shouldn't come here, this should come later in the book. And I don't even know how he knew that, because there wasn't a letter in the
book yet. We haven't even written it, you know, but he just somehow knew instinctually that don't give this away too soon, you know, this might be more valuable later, and uh, and things like you know, I would write for a couple of days, you know, and come back to him with this, you know, a couple of the pages worth of stuff, and he would boil that down, uh to like here, well here's where you're I think your story really is a lot of this other stuff
nobody cares, you know, but uh, this this year is something, you know, and uh, develop us and develop that, do you know, Try to develop that and try to focus on that, and then we'll get back together. And of course I would, you know, the first couple of times, I would like, Oh, yeah, you're just you're trashing my
whole story here. You know. I worked for hours on this, you know, and uh, but every time I read it the second time, what he had suggested that I get rid of, you know, or or however he suggested to edit it, uh, a lot of cut, cutting and pasting, you know. The second time I read it, I would be totally in agreement with what he was suggesting, you know. And so I learned to not even question him after
a while. I would just hand him stuff and we would look at it together, and pretty much he would zero in on what needed to be done with it, you know. So I have to give him a lot of credit in the writing of this book. First of all, I wouldn't have ever gotten done without his work ethic, you know. I mean, I'd still be wondering about the
preface at this point, you know. But it was really helpful all the way down the line even reading the audio or the audiobook having him there, you know, he was he was on hand with me and kind of directed me through it and really kind of reminded me in most cases. And I'm not even sure I still
did a very good job of it. But you know how how I said it when I told him the story or when we talked about it, you know, because I was tended to start reading things like Frankenstein, you know, like and then I, well, yeah, and then we went here, you know, and you know he would go, you know, when you said that the first time, it was kind of like this, you know, kind of offhanded, and so I was able to kind of recapture some of the spirit of how we had first talked about all this,
uh what became text in the book. You know, I honestly don't know how I would have gotten through this experience without him, And the audio book almost killed me. You know. It was like, you know, eight days of six hour days of reading, uh these things that all of a sudden seemed like a tongue twisting contest. You know, it was you know, you never know how goofy some of your you're paraphrasing or writing of anything, is until you have to go read it. You know.
So, what are a couple of your favorite Beatles songs with bridges?
Uh? Why? So many? Uh? No reply is one of those great bridges, you know. While you know, if I were you, I'd realize that I will to be a fool, and you gave me no reply. You know. They just had such a great sense of chord progression and relative key knowledge, you know that I think was very natural
for them, just being guitar players. They I don't think they really were steeped in music theory, but they you know, they they had played enough club gigs, Like I always tell my son, you know, playing those club gigs is where you learn everything you need to know about pop music, you know. Uh. And but it seemed like Beatles six uh revolver all the way through those records, all the
way up to the Revolver and on from there. One thing the Beatles always did well was write a great bridge to their song.
You know, it seems so obvious. How come no one else can do that? No one else sees that magic in a record.
You know, It's a funny thing. I don't know that any of us see the magic when we're when it's happening. You know, I'm sure the same for the Beatles. You know, I think.
You you're just kind of when you're making a record, you're more or less just kind of have your head down swing and trying to come up with something that that, uh you think we'll capture the listeners imagination, you know, and uh, I know with the Doobies for a long time, for us, it was, you know, we wanted to kind of incorporate uh.
Key feelings in our songs that you know, we thought we you know, would lift the listeners you know, emotion, you know, or or uh and and a lot of that came from listening to early the early stuff, you know, uh, some of the great R and B songs, uh, you know from Motown and the Beatles stuff for sure, you know, and uh and then you know, I think we all learned a great appreciation of uh American music from the British bands because they really fed it back to us.
Most of us missed so much great American music because the radio stations weren't playing it on mainstream radio when we were kids. You know, we heard these English bands playing Muddy Waters and Howland Wolf and you know, Willie Dixon songs and we were just like, what is this stuff? It's so great, you know, and it was it was part of our own culture and we weren't aware of it.
How'd you first hear the Beatles?
I remember hearing about them when I was in sixth grade. One of the eighth graders came to school with his hair combed down, and the nuns kicked him out of school, sent him home, and it was a big, you know, old gossip. It was about which Brandon showing up with his hair combed down in his face and pink sent home. And then you know, that's the first I ever heard about the Beatles, And wasn't shortly after that or I
want to hold your hand, you know. Uh. And you know it was kind of a bit of sophistication and pop records that we didn't hear. I think some of our pop records prior to that had a certain sophistication, you know. Uh. I always my ear was drawn too early on uh kind of pop R and B stuff. For that reason. I remember hearing stop Her on Site by uh Uh Edwin starred and uh, it's just something about the arrangement. It was just so much hipper than a lot of uh pop records were you know that
that followed a certain formula of simplicity. You know, Uh, some of these records it's it was like they let themselves go or something, you know, and uh, what they what they did was they kind of gave credit to the listener for being able to appreciate what they were doing. You know. Uh, writers like Burt Backrack and the Beatles, you know, they kind of went ahead and uh, you know, followed their own muse and the audience was quick to respond. You know, there's so many songs by Burt Backrack and
Hal David and that. You know, if you asked the typical in our person at the time, well it's a little Yeah, you can't put a six four bar in the middle of the pop song. People are gonna fall up the chair, you know. But that's not true. Because if you make it sound natural and it's and you make it, you do it just because it's a beautiful thing to do in that moment, people will get that, you know, and they'll they and proof is in the pudding. They love those songs to this day.
You know, you're from the same generation. I am a lot of us listen to the baseball games on our transistor. Then we shifted to music, and then the Beatles hit What was your Experience?
I used to listen. We had those little Japanese transistoradd it was forgot him for Christmas. And what an amazing, you know, cultural shift that was for all of his kids walking down the street with these things pressed against our ears. And I used to go to bed on Sunday night with mine, sneaking into my bedroom and put it under my pillow, and when my mother left the room, you know, and you know, it was trying to get us to go to sleep, you know, in time for
school on Monday. I would I could pick up stations, uh late at night on Sunday night that you couldn't normally pick up during the day. The airways were all to crowded their gains or something. But it was a station out of Nashville, Tennessee, and it was a gospel
music station. And the DJ was a guy who apparently where I got this correct, he went around the mat Nashville metro area to all the churches and he would record choirs on you know, fairly sophisticated portable tape player at the time, and at the end of his day that afternoon, prior to his airtime, he would edit these tapes and he would pick the best performances from the what he thought was the best choir performances of that Sunday from the different churches, and that would be his
program that evening, and he would just with very little talk, he would just segue from one performance into the next. End each one was more passionate and more exciting and you know, powerful than the last one. And I remember the kid thinking even back then that you know, gospel music is really so much more passionate than rock and roll.
I mean, rock and roll is great, and I love rock and roll like anybody else, but it's kind of ways to go to catch up with gospel music as far as just pure power and uh and emotion, you know, especially in the performance and live performances. You know, Uh, the gospel performances have you know, historically, uh, the gospel performers, I should say historically have been you know, unbelievable uh artists, you know, with the prowess beyond you know, superhuman prowess.
To me, you know, uh, to this day, when I listen to what's popular now is a lot of these YouTube you know, excerpts of gospel piano players, and it's just you want to just throw in the towel and you know, pick up another profession after you hear these guys, and some of them are like in their teens, you know,
and they're just already that great, you know. So it's always been, uh something a bar, a musical bar for me is what goes on in gospel music, something that I've never felt, you know, I've been a part of, but I sure enjoy listening to it, and I use it as an inspiration to, you know, maybe trying to learn something in my old an shaw.
So in the summer of sixty nine, when the Edmund Hawkins singers have Oh Happy Day, are you pissed? Because it's taking room from the Beatles and other things where you say, oh, this is great, this is just in my wheelhouse.
No no, I love that track, and it kind of brought to the airwaves what had always been there, but it had been disguised as pop R and B. And you know, all of our rhythm blues music is the director of the American gospel music, you know, and by that I mean African American gospel music, because that really is the true well, you know, there's a Southern gospel and all that, and rock and roll has also mirror that.
You know from the beginning. You know, all the different forms of pop music in this country that are truly American I think come from gospel roots. You know. It's the music that people found here, that they further developed here, that they found comfort in living their day to day lives. That's what got them through, you know, and then it evolved into more secular music that they enjoyed, you know, in their living rooms and outside of church. You know.
But you know, all the early R and B performers, I think most of them grew up in church and learned to just sing and play. Probably most of them in church.
Okay, So the Beatles break on the radio in January sixty four, thron ed Sullivan three times in February. In my world, we were all playing eylon string guitars folk, and then as soon as Beetles hit, everybody got an electric guitar and everybody started forming bands. What was your experience.
Much the same? I think. I think every uh, you know, if you didn't just play sports, you know, every other American male had a garage bad you know, and dreams of making a hit record and uh, you know, being being like the Beatles. You know, that was our template for uh, you know, social status, you know. Uh, and
we were no different, you know. We We started out and one of drummer's basement, you know, and uh, you know, we were probably as terrible as every garage band starts out as and uh, but we you know, developed it a little further, found some new equipment along the way, and we're able to actually play a few gigs and the rest of for the most part, most of us made a life out of playing music. With all the guys I played with when I was twelve thirteen years old are still playing music to this day.
And that's their primary way of putting food on the table, so to speak.
Yes and no. I mean, I think there's not any of us that haven't worked outside of the music business just to you know, like you say, put food on the table. But I pretty much stayed within the bounds of working because I was single, you know, for the longest part of my life till I met my wife. I didn't really have a lot of responsibility, and I took that to a whole new level, you know, when I was a musician, just you know, to keep my
attention and focused in one area. You know, I pity the woman who would have ever been hooked up with me during those periods, because I you know, I lived very hand of miles for a while there in a while, get a lot of CouchSurfing as a musician in La Okay.
In my world, everybody formed a garage band. The story I tell as I was playing guitars with my good friend. He says, now we're going to change keys, and I said to myself, I'm out, there's no future here. When did you know this was your thing and you were going to write it to the end.
You know, there was a lot of complexity with that for me. You know, I think just somewhere in there, I thought, you know, if I have anything to offer, it's somewhere in this realm, and anything else would be starting over for me. And I didn't really have a lot of confidence on myself as far as you know. I remember one time in park I think I talked about this in a poko in front of the bank
and I was eating Ah. You know, I'd taken my life to a whole new economic bottom, you know, at that point, you know, and uh, just watching this guy in a three piece suit stand there smoking cigarette and I kind of just assumed he was on a break. He was a bank executive, and I'm thinking, God, what must it. What's it like to be him? You know, to have all these people's money that you're responsible for and this job of great responsibility. And I wouldn't last
a day in that environment, you know. Uh, you know, I could barely you know, uh get it together to get my piano to the shop and pick some keys and you know, uh this ding dong and Dr Pepper. It's going to be my one meal for the day, you know. But I, uh, you know, it was just a period of my life. I was young, and we're
all we all went there. I think, I, I uh, I stretched that period out a little more than most people, but I think that we all know what that's like to be that age and you know, kind of irresponsible, you know, in terms of what the world sees as responsibility, you know. I to this day, I marveled a lot of my friends who tell me about their kids and what their kids are going, and you know, and I go, well, I was at that age, I was just looking for another club gig. You know, I wasn't really I wasn't
even really that concern with what lie beyond that. You know. It was just can I borrow an amp in time to do this gig? You know? And then you know, I gotta be careful with this cord because I don't, you know, get it just right. It's going to crackle when I play. You know. I was in that world, you know, but you know I wouldn't trade it. I enjoyed it. I think it was a lot of it
for me was I was avoiding growing up. You know, I was somehow locked in a time frame in my own emotional state, you know, emotional maturity, and I just didn't think I was cut out to go and learn to be a teacher or a lawyer or any kind of other professional music was it? Or it was all or nothing for me with music, And I thought, you know, at least I have a shot at this bringing something to it.
You know, Well, you talk in the book your father was a saloon singer, literally, and your parents got divorced, you know, your school career ends. Was there anybody saying Michael or Mike as you refer to, you know, maybe you're going down the wrong path. You need to buckle down. Well, you've always kind of on your own.
Well, it's funny, you know, of the two parents I had, my mother was more like, you know, hey, go for it, do you know, do do your best, you know, and be you know, you know. Uh. And my dad was too, because you know, his interest in music and everything. But I think he was more wary about the fact that I might find myself out on limb in life and uh and then with no real uh you know, plan b you know, for how to you know, go into adulthood, you know, with some semblance of uh, you know, dignity.
But you know, uh, so he would always do kind of, yeah, you should kind of look into these junior college courses and you know, uh, get that ged while you're at it, you know, and then go to junior college and just kind of pave away for yourself beyond this, you know.
And uh, eventually I did that. I I went and took the test that you know, you know, literally anyone could pass, you know, uh, but uh, I I never you know, I never took seriously any college courses or any other profession besides just playing music, and I think that was where my passion was, was just the chance to play music again. It didn't matter where or under
what circumstances. I was one of those guys that when I was playing in a crappy bar somewhere with two people, you know, at the sitting at the bar and no one else in the room. You know, I could close my eyes and imagine I was at Madison Square Garden, you know, playing singing the song I was about to play, you know, h It didn't matter that I wasn't. In my mind, I could go there, you know. And I think I used to do that a lot, just you know, if I was singing this song for uh, the biggest
audience in the world, how would I do it? How would I sing it? You know? To me, it was always about the song and about the moment and about the chance to perform it. Uh, didn't didn't really matter where.
You know, it is nearly impossible to make it. You focus on luck in the book, but you must have had a lot of drive.
Yeah, I did. I think looking back, not in the areas I should have. I think, you know, I think one of the things that I was always a terrible student, you know. I you know, I've never got to practice much. I I to this day. I have a real issue with it. I'm not sure what it is. I try to practice, and I try to you know, I try to force myself, but I find that I drift off, you know, almost immediately into some other place that isn't really very much fruit, you know, in terms of what
you hope to get from practicing. And you know, for me, I learned to play better when I play gigs, you know, when I when I'm playing a lot, when I'm in a dance situation and there's a reason for me to advance, uh you know, my just my keyboard part or something, or teach myself to do something I haven't done here for you know. But when I'm on my own time and I'm at home and I'm gonna I'm going to go through all these piano tutorials I've downloaded on my phone,
and I'm going to slowly practice these things. I'm good for about five maybe maybe one minute, you know, and and my brain just you know, dislodges, you know, and I I find it's really difficult for me to do that, to rudimentarily do anything, you know, I I I got to be immersed in it for me to actually put it together and actually advance a little further with whatever it is I'm doing. You know, I play a little mandolin with the band. I can't play the mandolin. I couldn't,
you know. I know a couple of songs. But and from the first time I ever picked up a banjo when I was a kid, I learned just enough to do what I had to do in the next song I was gonna play. But uh as far as sitting there and practicing the banjo until I got pretty good at playing the banjo, I was never capable of doing that. I don't know what that is, an intention deficit. Uh. You know, they got names for all this stuff now that they didn't have when I was a kid, But
I think I suffered from a lot of them. And uh so for me, you know, it was like to throw me in the middle of it. And if it's something I enjoy overall, uh, I'll learn what I got to learn to do the job I got to do, you know. And music was that way for me. You know, I wished I had been a better stud music, you know, ad a better instrumentalist in all the different respects. You know. I'm a you know, a guy plays a little bit
of some things. Nothing well, you know, and uh, but I you know, I would put it together in some form or fashion to write a song or to play this next song with a band. You know, I would come up with some kind of keyboard part that I thought worked. And you know, and I'm I'm I'm changing my parts. Uh. We've been out for three years dubies and up or our third year of the fiftieth anniversary tour. Uh,
I'm still changing my keyboard parts. You know. It's just you know, I'm a slow learner and I'm slow to develop those things. But if you give me the chance, uh, and I have enough time, I can catch up, you know pretty well, you know, But uh, that's kind of my m o. You know. That's Uh. I've ever been one of those guys that can sit down and rip off something in every key you know. I wish I was, but I'm not. I don't think I ever will be.
But to sage, you know, one of the big turning points in the book is you put together a band for a studio Christmas party. You meet Jeff Percaro and he calls you two years later to be in Steely Dan, tell me about the conversation in the interaction with Jeff Percaro at that Christmas party.
Well, that's an interesting question, really, because, uh, your your last question is, you know, you seem to have I had a lot of perseverance in the music business, you know. I was one of these I was always no matter what didn't happen or didn't or whatever imploded or you know, uh, I always thought, well, there's an opportunity here somewhere, I just have to you know, there'll be another shot at this,
you know. And though this usually was the last thing you expected, and this was one of those things where I you know, it was just a gig that I had been kind of left in my lap, and I failed miserably at delegating and preparing for this thing. And I promised this person I would, you know, I wouldn't procrastinate, and I would make sure all this stuff was in place so that we could do this gig. And of course I didn't. And it was a week out and
this is nothing but disaster looming, you know. And a friend of mine said he knew some guys who might be able to help us out and play. And you know, they were kind of like the young uh you know, a list guys in town and his brother worked with him. They probably would just doing this gig for fun, you know, and I wouldn't need to rehearse, you know much, just write up some chord charts for them. They do sessions
every day. They know how to improvise them, you know, just some songs that we all remotely know or I have heard before, everybody will be able to pull it off. And so that's what we did. And I met Jeff Percaro on the gig. Mike Paccaro, his brother played bass. H David Page came down just to kind of check it out, and he sat in on a couple of things, and we had a guitar player friend of mine. I can't and uh we uh, we got through the night,
you know. But what what I remember mostly was them talking about doing the Steely Dan album they were recording at the time, and that was my favorite band at that moment. You know. I just love those guys. I love them what they did, and uh, you know, probably the band I like the most since the Beatles, you know, and uh and I thought, Wow, how lucky you know to be this guy's you know, playing with these guys
every day. And I had done a gig prior to that club gig a disco in the South Bay area and a good friend of mine, Bobby for he was a drummer friend of mine, Bobby frederoa uh and we played together in some bands, and Bobby was a great singer and great player, played with the Righteous Brothers and each Boys for years. But he was auditioning for Stewie Dan and he was talking about going to this audition, and this is the second time I heard about somebody
having something to do with Stewe Dan. I thought, God, how do you get on that train? You know, these guys are so lucky, you know. But I noticed that they also had a lot of confidence. Like Jeff was in a very charming way. Was he was just downright cocky. He just he knew he he knew he was good. You know, he didn't. It wasn't like me like wondering if you know, what's that next choro? So now you know, I was always like double checking myself and wondering, who
is going to go? Yeah, this guy doesn't really play that great we should get somebody else, you know. Uh, I was always in that world in my head. And parents of these guys that never give a second thought about whether they deserve the gig or not, you know, they just you know, this is what I do, and
I'm damn good at it, you know. And I really admired that if I found that just really alluring, you know about these guys, and uh, they were talking about playing with Steely Dan like it was just to walk in the park, you know. And uh, you know, I knew if I were in that room on that floor,
I'd be sweating bullets, you know. So, uh, you know, that was what I remember about meeting those guys first time, was just being introduced to that you know that the Cats send, you know, the guys that were you know, they they knew they belonged in the circle of a list musicians, you know. And these guys were like in their teams at that point, they were like nineteen eighteen, nineteen years old and already playing you know a lot of major recording dates in Los Angeles of all places.
Well, what was the conversation or what happened that night such that two years later, Jeff Percaro said, come audition for Steely Dan. Why did he remember you?
I think he enjoyed playing with me. I mean, I think we had We had a lot of fun that night. We played a lot of great R and B stuff that we all liked, you know, that we hadn't probably had a chance to play in a while, dance music that I was used to playing because I played in the clubs more than they did. But you know, average White band, you know, Tower Power stuff, you know, some Steely Dan stuff, and a lot of the older R and B stuff resa you know, all our favorite songs.
And we were for the most part improvising, just kind of playing off the court yard and in some cases making up the arrangements as we went, you know. But it was a lot of fun. And and I think Jeff enjoyed my voice as a lead singer, and you know some of the different you know, uh, you know, you always try to bring your own interpretation to a song,
you know. So and I think he knew enough about what we were doing and he's we were playing, and that he thought he might have been impressed that I sang as high as I did, you know, because a lot of people don't think I do, and I don't sound like I do, but uh, I'm basically a tenor as far as vocalist goes. And so when they were finally uh and they were talking about leaving, they were finishing the record that then this is a year before he called me, uh and they were going to go
out on tour. Well they that never kind of came to fruition. Uh. It was a year later and they were still trying to put a band together to go on tour. So Jeff suggested me as possibly playing some miscellaneous keyboards and uh and being able to sing uh the backgrounds, you know, and they even handle the lead uh Donald, So uh, I wanted to take a break, you know on something I'll find the song to to
throw it around a little bit. So uh. For whatever reason, he he, he liked what we did that night enough to call me the year later and said, you know, I thought about you. You know, I suggested that guys maybe should come down to audition, and they said, sure, have him come down. I said, great, I'm free all week. You know, well, well it's a good time because like right now, you know, come on down, bring your piano, just you know, well run through some stuff. And see
what they think, you know. Ah, so I was amazed that he even thought of it. A year later, we pretty much became friends immediately. You know. It wasn't well, you know, from from the moment we started rehearsing with Steven Dan. I think Jeff and I became kind of lifelong friends. I appreciated very much what he had done for me and his confidence in me to be able
to pull it off. Ah. But also we you know, we had a kind of a kindred spirit and sense of I don't know, you know, family, uh, the start sensitive sensibilities, you know, regarding life in general, you know, uh and uh so and Jeff was just one of those guys that everybody loved. The guy. You know, he reminded me of my dad in that way. I think that was my you know what I I why I think I I gravitated into our friendship so much was
he didn't remind me of my dad. He was just one of those guys that was, uh, everybody seemed to like. You know, he had a charm about him, you know that uh that you know, attracted people. And I think in a way I was he reminded me of my dad in that way just kind of had that personality that you know, uh, it was like the farthest thing from reality for me. You know, I always felt like I was, you know, somebody was going to call out my name and they were gonna put me in a
paddy wagon or something, you know. Uh, but I always was attracted to people who seemed self assured, you know, and uh uh my dad was like that, and Jeff was was definitely like that.
Okay, musicians are the best networkers exton. And you were really in that world you're in LA, you're playing different shows and putting bands together. Were you the type of person who was just a good hang or they only heard you once and said, you know, that's the hot guy. You got to get to him. What was the magic of your networking such a you could continue to work.
Well, that's probably one of the most important things in especially in session world, is you know, it's one thing to be a good player, to be able to handle, you know, and even but to be a good personal person could be a good hang or you know, to to be able to hang with guys and you know, have a certain sense of humor, you know, you know, whatever, you know, it makes for a good conversation that was equally important. You know, it seemed like there was a
camaraderie with all session players and producers. You know that it was about enjoyment of being around those people by as much as their their talent and their ability to play. And I think, uh, you know, there were always those guys that probably were a little socially in that that but played so great that you know, you wanted them on your session. You know, everybody kind of you know, uh, but you uh for the average guy, but it was
a good player, you know, or could do the job. Uh. An important ingredient would be to be a good hang and to be someone that people liked, uh, that were happy to see walk in the room, you know. Uh. And I that was never lost on me. You know.
You know, I'm not sure I ever uh was all that good at it, but I I knew it was important, you know, And I knew that, uh, I I wanted to you know, I don't know what the word is, you know, endear myself to the people and the room, you know, so uh that that somehow was an important ingredient that might getch you the next gig. You know.
Okay, there's a lot of focus on your family. Your father leaves the house, he comes back now and again, but you got your mother, you got your two sisters. You talk about from the time you start working as a teenager, you're kicking in for the household bills. Then they follow you out to California. You know, there are some situations that are uncomfortable, but when one reads it, you go, this must have been a big drag on you emotionally and made it even harder to be successful.
Yeah, and I don't know, I mean.
Uh, I do remember having a taste of freedom from the familial you know, effort to you know, stay afloat that we grew up with.
But and you know, just to be actually on my own living in California at nineteen, you know, I was like, wow, this is an eye opener. In some ways. I think it opened the door to me, you know, possibly getting into more trouble than I bargained for because I just really wasn't used to well. I was in bands and we were on the road back in the Midwest a lot too, so were was no shortage of you know, shenanigans back then. But coming to California, it was just
such an eye opener. It was just such a different world, you know. It was nothing like where I came from, you know, And so when it was time to bring my family back out, there was a certain kind of like, oh, you know, I'm really kind of enjoying this, you know, being grown up on my own, you know, living my
own life in California. But uh, you know we did all well, not to sound you know, modeling, but you know, my mom for sure had sacrificed so much just to raise us, you know, my sisters and I and uh, you know, this was kind of I knew what part of this was surgery, you know that somehow I would you know, be able to make a living in California and they'd all be able to move out and you know,
we've uh whatever behind us. You know. For my mom, it was a leaving a failed marriage and leaving you know a lot of hard work, you know, and maybe being able to cash in a little bit on the rewards of you know, sticking sticking out with all of us and you know, and doing her best for us, you know, And I felt I owed her that, you know, so uh, you know, I knew that was her dream was to move to California, and my sisters and I, you know, we're always very close, so you know, uh,
I knew once they got out here, they would take over a lot of the I always left the family stuff to them, you know, you know whatever. Uh, And I was always kind of given this carte blanche of like, well, he just goes and does what he does, and uh, you know, and he's you know, uh, as long as he helps out financially, we're good. You know. Uh, they don't really need me around. They just you know, needed
my help. And we all we needed you know, when we're growing up, we all needed that to band together. You know. My mom and her sisters, my grandmother. Uh, we lived in a kind of communal situation, you know, uh, not in the same house, but we all they all raised each other's kids, and my grandmother raised us for the most part while they all worked. And uh so it was a very uh a meshed kind of a family for better or worse, very a meshed kind of family experience.
Okay, but it ultimately doesn't work out and everybody goes back to Saint Louis and then it works better and everybody comes back. What was your emotion after you make a record, nothing happens, family comes out, you go back to Saint Louis. Well, how did you feel.
Oh? I think that played into my a part of myself that I didn't even really know consciously yet, which was, uh, this is not over for me. I'm going to get back out to California. You know. I think I had that in the back of my mind, you know, from the minute I got everybody back home, you know, and uh we all left after the earthquake, uh, you know, and my album got de scrapped. You know. I just I think even then that it could be one of the lower points of my uh inspiration in terms of
the music business. I wasn't ready to give up, you know, even with my dad doing you know, while you're home, you should take that g D. You know, uh, maybe look at this community college up here in Florence. And you know, even in those conversations, I was going, Nah, I gotta I've had a taste of California. I know, I think I know what's going on out there to the degree that I maybe thought I did. And and but I knew I had to get back, you know,
that somehow I would figure that out. I wasn't sure how h.
Okay. You know, you start out, you're a teenager by time you contemplate going to California. What is the dream? What is it you want? What do you see on the horizon?
I think I wanted to make records, you know. That was that That's how I saw the music business, you know, in the simplest form, was I want to make a record that someone can actually put out and maybe get on the radio and then let people decide whether I'm any good or not, you know, but just to be able to get into that those circles where people actually made records that were actually viable, possible radio play, you know,
for the radio stations around the country. You know, I wanted to be that guy that, like myself, when I'm driving down the freeway and I hear that song come on, and that joyous moment of reaching over and just cranking that sucker, you know, as loud as I can and listen to that song all way down the highway. I wanted to be that for somebody else. I wanted I want someone else to have that experience concerning my music.
Did you see yourself as a solo act or a band or the front man. Was there something in your mind's eye.
I was always pretty malleable with that. I was always more comfortable being in a band, in a band, you know, being a band guy, you know, but I was willing to try solo artists. Thing that was my first deal with Warner Brother with R Cier, was to make a record as a solo artist, singer, composer. But I'm not sure I was ever really prepared to do that, you know.
I think I just took everything kind of one step at a time, you know, figured i'd figure out the rest of it, what it was like to be a performer. You know. I wanted to sing like Tom Jones, and I wanted to write songs like Burt Backerack and uh somewhere into that realm, you know, I thought I would be happy. I loved R and B. But I didn't consider myself a real R and B singer, you know, per se you know, ah and are really having a
chance in that market much, you know. I I love singing and stuff, and I loved that was my favorite music at the time. But I feel I kind of I guess I saw myself more as a pop artist, you know, in my mind's eye, or that I had more of a chance of being successful making records in that realm you cut to chase, you know, the record got scrapped and probably for everyone's benefit, and I went back home for a minute, got back out to California, but always it was the drive to kind of somehow
get into the recording pusician, you know. And then it wasn't long before working for Richard producer. I worked for quite a bit, played on a lot of sessions that I my my dream then kind of I was nothing if not valuable. You know. I thought, well, if I could just you know, get a little better on piano and play more sessions, I would be happy. And just being a guy that played sessions enough to pay the bills and you know, work, I could work in clubs,
you know, in my off time. But if if I could work enough to do more sessions and make a living good living at it, uh that I would be happy, you know. And uh So for a while that was all I was really shooting at it. But then you know, it would come up that friends of mine were going to go on the road with somebody. I thought, oh, that sounds like fun, and that sounds like a great gig, you know, and uh, you know, none of us got
paid that much for it. He had to be really the ace guy, doing so many sessions that they had to pay you thousands of dollars to leak down, you know, to turn your back on that, you know. But I wasn't that guy, and so I was more in the rome of guys who would go on the road next to nothing and you know, play as mindy cakes as possible. But you know, if you were lucky enough to be with the band, you loved it. It was nothing better than that. You know. It's kind of like being in
love and being broke, you know. It was like, you know, hey, this is the best. You know. So I was always looking for one of those gigs to come up. And when it actually happened that my steely Dan's dream kind of came true, I couldn't believe it, you know, that I would actually get to play with this band who eded at the moment, was my favorite band in the world, you know. And it's like a lot of those kind of gigs you get them, it's a dream come true
and I can't think of it being any better. And then they break up, and you know, you're back to the Trojan Room in Glendale, playing a couple of their songs in your set at night. You know. So you know, it was the ups and downs of all that. But you know, as long as I could make a living as a musician, I was. I was for the most part, I was happy. You know.
Okay, eventually you have this large success, you know, you buy a house, your mother has her friends staying in your house. But to what degree when you have the success and you have everybody can use more money, but you have more money than you need to pay the bills, to what degree did you have a responsibility to take care of the other three family members? And to what degree did they ask?
You know, I I don't know that My family was ever really very demanding and everybody had their own you know, my sisters were both singers and bands, and uh you know, we all worked. You know. I I helped out my family as much as I could. You know, I always happy to do that. You know, Uh, my mom, it was my It was kind of like the delegation was mom is my responsibility and financially and uh uh the girls you know had their own lives. You know, they had husbands at a certain point, and so I wasn't
really interfering in their lives that much. I would be happy, you know, to help them out financially if I could on something, But for the most part, everybody was pretty so sufficient. You know. Uh my mom, I think we all felt deserved to break, you know. And uh, so you know, I got her a house, and but she wasn't happy unless she was working. So she continued to work. And so she went to school, became a travel agent.
And my mom and her uh you know, inevitable style, wound up being a travel agent to like more celebrities than I'd ever met in my life, you know. And uh she was like the celebrities of the travel agents, of the stars, uh, actors, you know, the beach boys all they they did their travel through my mom. Uh you know, all kinds of folks that I met actually through my mom as their travel agent, you know. But
so she was happy working. But now she didn't need to struggle so much to just you know, raise three kids and uh, you know, less than one hundred bucks a week, you know. Uh, those days were over and so we we we all and we all participated. My sisters were always really more on uh, on site kind of help with my mom whenever, you know, she needed, especially as she got older, you know, uh, organizing her
health care and stuff like that. To Cathy was always really great about that, you know, and her sister Marge, my aunt Betsy was always really a bit at that. Nobody gave me much credit for being able to handle those things very well. So we all kind of took on our best suited jobs.
Okay, you're on the road with Steely Dan. You talk about being in London and the two key members were in their own hotel room. To what degree was the band all in it together or were Walter and Donald separate and the rest of the band.
Hung well, I think it would be safe to say that everybody saw Walter and Donald as the source of creativity for what was eventually would be Seely Dan in any sense. You know, those guys wrote the songs, They were the brains behind the operation, you know kind of thing, and we all felt really fortunate to be part of
their music, you know, we all fans first. Now, there were the guys that were originally in the band who came out to New York for them, who played them, uh, you know, from the beginning, you know, on the Winnebago tours as we say, you know, and had been in from the beginning. But even those guys I think looked to Donald and Walter as they all brought their particular expertise. Danny Diaz, Jeff Baxter, Jimmy Hotter, they they all had what they did well, and that's what they brought to
the band. But I think everybody looked to Donald and Walter for that creative source that that made the band what it was musically ultimately.
Yeah, but how much in terms of hang could you hang with Walter and Donald or was it clear they're in their own bubble?
Probably a little of both, you know, but uh, they were both very funny guy. It's great hang you know when we all we all pretty much hung together at the cage on days. But at the same time, there was a probably you can on the off days, uh, I would probably be running around town with one of the guys in the band or the crew, you know, we all you know, and so this was kind of a special treat to be called up to Donald and Walters enclave at this hotel in London to spend the
day just hanging out. But we did that a lot. We did that too, you know. And like I say, those guys were very funny. It was always fun to be around them, you know, and their their view of the world around them was always worth the price of the mission, you know. Uh. They had a real sense of irony when it came to encountering people, you know, uh, and just different things the way they looked at life, you know, especially in the music business, and so uh
that was all part of that scene. You know. They were kind of hiding out from the promoters and h in our executives and uh management uh and held up in their ivory tower of Blake's Hotel, and everybody was down in the lobby pulling their hair out trying to get a phone call up to those guys. And they had just you know, decided we're going to do this our way, the highway, you know, and uh so and we will let you know when we're ready to talk to you.
Uh.
And somehow in the middle of that, we were invited up to the room to just kind of hang out for the afternoon and you know, ah and you know, hang well.
Denny Diaz, to my knowledge, ultimately became a computer programmer, not everybody he can eke out a living in music. Those people, how do they ultimately make a decision to make a left turn? What have you learned?
Uh? You know, I think that's just such a personal decision, you know. And I think if you have the what's tempting is if you actually have an acumen for something like that, Like I think Denny's interest was always there, you know, for it stuff and you know, computers, uh and he was always fascinated with technical things, technical you know, uh uh here, recording, you know, uh stuff, So it
would be an easy transition for him, you know. And I think once again, you know, the great equalizers when when he gets married, you know, you look at your life differently. You know, you're not willing or you know, collectively as a unit, you're not willing to charge the road of economic despair, you know, any more than you have to, you know. And so you know, for some of the guys, I think it was an easy transition for some of them. Not, you know, not so much,
you know. But now it's a hard question to answer. For me. All I know from my own experience was I would have been afraid to enter most of any of those worlds you know, I didn't even understand them as they pertained to music, much less what I understand them outside of music. You know.
Okay, you're playing in bands in the area of Missouri, Indiana, Illinois, and you ultimately interact with Irving Azoff World as an agent in Illinois, and he ultimately becomes your manager in your solo career. What was Irving like when he was in Illinois?
Exactly like Irving is now. I don't think he's changed one bit, but in all the good ways. I mean, I have a great respect for his friend first, you know, but as a manager for sure, you know, as a as a I think, as a person with great perspective about the music business. And I think it's made him as many enemies as friends, you know. But I think it's very telling that most of his friends are artists that he has helped, you know. You know, Irving was
one of those guys where you know, the suits. I'll love to tell you what a scoundrel Irving can be, you know, ruthless, you know, blah blah blah. Pretty much every musician that's ever worked with him is you know, can we will tell you that the guys the best there is you know, as far as looking out for artist interests, for being wise in his advice to artists, uh, and guiding their careers. Uh. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone. It's even you know, in his league,
you know, to be quite honest. Uh. You know, all the guys from that from that office that was our booking agency and Champagne Illinois, of all places, uh, I have done really really well. They were They were kind of the new age of perspective on management of musical artists. You know, John Barrick, all the guys in those offices were really uh kind of groundbreaking, uh, artist centric kind of view of the business. You know.
Okay, you start off the bands as a guitarist, ultimately you're a piano player. Tell us how what's going on there?
Yeah? Again, you know I was always just doing you know, for me musically, I was just do whatever was required for the next song we were going to learn off of some record. You know. It was just it was if there was a piano on it. That's why I started playing piano again. Bands. Was all of a sudden
there was these records coming out. They had keyboards and you know, yeah, so I I uh, would you know, just learned the song on that instrument, you know, as best I could, you know, and uh we would kind of come up with our own arrangement of it for a four piece band, you know. And so uh, you know, I kind of learned to play any instrument more from my experience with bands than from any formal training or lessons that I ever took on piano or or anything.
You know, you have a unique voice. If we heard you sixty years ago, would you still sound like you do on your famous records?
Probably not. I think the voice all by itself, for anyone is an ever changing instrument, you know. I mean, I think there's certain traits that remain, you know, are recognizable as remain. But as you get older, you know, you have to kind of adjust to what your strengths
are at this point time physically as a singer. And I was always kind of a you know, if you have a two categories crooner screamer, I was always a little more to the screamer side of things, you know, and playing singing in keys that were probably a little bit technically too high for me, uh ah not, you know, not taking it easy, you know, in terms of kind of pushing my voice, you know, as much as I could, and I felt that that's what uh I could bring to you know, I could be you know, I could
do the Mitch Ryder stuff, or the James Brown songs or the you know uh where. I paid for that later in like, you know, as I got older, I suddenly realized and even early on, I paid for it. I realized, you know, you can't just scream all the time. It won't be singing two years from now, you know. So I started to develop a style of singing for myself that had as much to do with function as
it did with form. You know. It was so that I could keep singing all night, you know, and uh but that I could sound like I was really putting it out there, you know, which I was in one respect, But I was learning to not hurt myself in the process,
you know. And uh I learned later when I started to become more acquainted with some of my favorite singers from that era, that they all had that they had all developed that some of the best gospel singers, you know, they just sound like they're ripping their own vocal cards out from the inside, but you know, they really have a technique that allows them to you know, just uh shout, scream this this song out, you know, uh, but without hurting themselves, you know, with it's a it's an intrinsic
kind of ability that they develop, you know. And uh and and playing clubs I had. I found that that's one of the best things playing clubs did for me was allow me to develop my vocal uh style in a reasonable way, a four man function, you know, because I was saying enough all the time that I was able to kind of find my voice in the nightclubs that I played.
Okay, some people are writing three songs a day. Other people write, you know, only when they have a record. Do what's your writing situation?
Uh? You know, I think I've always been the guy who would be lucky to write three songs a year, you know. You know, I don't. I'm not a prolific writer again, you know, like like a lot of things musically, I I approach it with a like you know, there's not a time I go to write a song that I'm not thinking in the back of my mind, I
don't know, do I know how to do this? It's been a while or you know, you again, you change your approach, you know, over the years, and I certainly have done that, you know, or are you to just write grooves on the piano and then come up with words for it would be a very simplistic way of looking at it. Uh. I started to kind of take the songs themselves a little more seriously and hope that I was maybe saying something uh lyrically that you know,
people could relate to on a deeper level. And then, you know, musically, I wanted to do to you know, develop and and and that entailed both things being more simple, you know, taking you know, appreciating simplicity more in my writing. Uh. You know, I always felt like I was one of those guys that were whatever new thing I learned, I would use it to death till even I was sick
of it, you know. Uh So I would always have to kind of go through that process to where it till it finally became something useful and meaningful for me. You know. When I started to of understand a little more theory where chord progressions and key changes and relative keys and all that were concerned, then I started to write songs that had more chords in it than music itself, you know, I mean and to it fault, you know.
But you know, you go through your faces and you you hopefully come out on the other side having learned something, you know. So it's always been a learning process for me, you know. And I think with writing songs it will
always be. I go through this kind of love hate thing where I feel like it's something I'm putting on the back burner, leaving it on the stove too long, and I'm not going to look back and see it's catching fire or not, you know, out and then something happens, like the dude has decided to do a new record, and all of a sudden, it's like, well, I guess I should pull out some of these notebook and start looking through them and seeing if I got anything here,
you know, that I could make into a song, you know. And but I've never been one of those guys with a burning passion to write the next song. I've just been a musician who writes some music. And again, you know, I've worked with writers who are really very professional composers and take it very seriously, and that's a whole other level of songwriting to me. You know, it's a whole nother business of songwriting. For me, I'm just like I say, like one of the guys in the band, who's I
got a song? You know what about this? You know, as opposed to you know, the very backrecs and people like that who do it very diligently and you know, take on huge projects like Broadway plays and movies and things like that.
You know, Okay, I love, I keep forgetting. But your favorite song of mine is real love. Not only is it great musically, the lyrics are incredibly insightful. Tell me about that song.
Uh, well, as I think for that song for me, uh was uh, you know, kind of I think one of one of the dobies. We started to kind of enter a little bit more into the you know, R and B world, but we always had that, you know, uh kind of one foot in the rock and roll world. And but our music started to develop a kind of an rhythm B lose uh sometimes even more of a jazz fusion feeling, and and that song was somewhere in between that. That song was one of one of our
simpler songs. I actually cut the song for my solo, my first solo record, with Jeff Percaro and some other musicians. Steve luftre Think played on the date. Uh uh uh Patrick Henderson, Uh who I believe I wrote the song with it, if I'm not mistaken getting old to Foggy here, But we had cut a nice track of it, you know, and uh but at the time, I thought it was
like the best thing I got. Right now, I'm not sure, Ah, I have anything I'm really half crazy about for the next Doobie's album, you know, and I saw I felt like I owed it to the Doobie's troject to do whatever I thought my best offering was, you know, and then I would figure out what to write for my solo record later because time wise and everything it was, it wasn't as urgent as the next Dewbie Brothers record was, uh,
scheduling standpoint and all that. So I went it, went ahead and cut it with the band, and I think that was the version. I think that really turned out the best of that song. And it was a you know, providential that I cut it with those guys. You know, it was meant to be a do Bee brother song.
But what about the lyrics. The lyrics are so you know, insightful.
Yeah, uh, well yeah, I think, uh, it's just uh the song for me, it was about you know, how we when we can't find love, we uh, we're almost willing to accept anything in its place, you know that might at least allude to love, you know. Uh and uh and somehow that's the best we can do for a while, you know. And uh uh that's pretty much what the lyric was about. You know, let's let's let's pretend that that that that's what we have here and uh, because otherwise what are we doing here? You know? Uh?
And I think a lot of people experience that with with love and in the pursuit of love. You know, there's so many things that we accept that are really less than love. You know. There's a song on the new Dubi Brother's album called it Ain't the kind of Last, And oddly enough, that's a reoccurring theme in my Uh. But I just think it's it's uh, what what most people experience in terms of the world of in the
world of love, of love and relationship. Uh. I think what it is is we have to learn to love ourselves first, you know, and uh and then uh that love we're looking for will come uh in its own time. But until we the journey for most of us is learning to love ourselves first so that we can actually be in a position to accept something like real love.
You know, uh in the process. I think I've written about that probably far too many times, but ah, it's you know, it's it's definitely a universal theme, you know.
M what's the story if I got to try?
I wrote that with Kenny and we Kenny login, Kenny logans yes, and the song is pretty self expen It was really basically like, you know, it's so easy to h m hm, look at the world around us and lose the ability to envision what it is we all want, you know, Uh, right now we're going to that. You know. We look at the world around us, we look at our options, we look at what's happening with people, We
looking at the way people are treating each other. It's really easy to lose faith, you know, you know, humanity, you know, but that gift to envision something better, you know, the simple fact that we really all are the same, if we ever get around to accepting that reality and that we all want the same things, and that we could start there at any point in time that we really want to, you know, uh, if we just h respect each other and give each other the dignity to
be who we are and not you know, uh somehow try to make a society that's exclusive for for whatever reason, uh, whether it's religion or politics or you know, money. You know, it makes us want to to go that path. You know that. You know, if you just keep your eye on the ball. You know, the flame of truth can only burn if we keep it in our sight. You know. Uh it Uh it'll go out if we stop seeing it,
you know. Uh. And uh those people who were brave enough two to see it in spite of what uh reality of reality around them was telling them, you know, uh, but to keep that vision in their in their mind's eye and in their heart. Most of them paid for it with their lives, if on any on any real and important level, Those people who meant the most, who made the most change, which we died for it. Uh So. But I think as the average person, we we have to we have to take that vision that they handle us.
We have to keep it alive. You know. If that's all we do, we're doing the right thing, you know, because you know, it's it's hard for us to understand that we're not really here for any other reason than to love each other. There's no other purpose for us to be here, you know, ah, and to act in
the service of each other. You know, that's a that's a hard thing to grasp, uh, because there's all kinds of uh pitfalls that make us think that some reason we have to be afraid of something or someone, you know, and that we have to defend ourselves against each other. You know. It's it's shaped the world we live in in so many ways, but the reality is still the same reality. We're all the same and we all want
the same things. And the sooner we get onto the business of being of service to each other, the better off will be.
Okay, Steely Dan stops touring, you get a call to be with the Doobie Brothers. They are on the road promoting a record. Tom Johnston has to go home. You're not a backup singer. Now, You're not sitting behind Walter and Donald. You're the front person. I mean all I know, I mean everyone knows the Doobie Brothers hits. I did not become a real fan until the spring of seventy five, when I live with these guys and they played well,
what were one's vices? Are now habits at infinitum. Therefore, when the next album came out, I bought it the day came out, and I was surprised. I played it to death, but I was surprised. What was it like from your viewpoint to take the stage with the audience having one expectation of the Doobie Brothers and there you are.
It was surreal, really because there was no shortage of you know, when I was singing one of Tom's songs, you know, there was you know that you know, voices in the audience like where's Tom? You know, you know, and obviously you know, uh And I don't know that there was any real announcements to the public about where Tom wasn't there, you know. Uh. I there must have been, you know, but not as far as in a moment
on the show. We just you know, kind of put our heads down and played the songs the best we could. And and like you said, I was singing some of Tom's songs, you know, and Pat was taking the rest of them, you know. Uh. I don't think the audience has ever stopped missing Tom when he wasn't there, you know, I don't think it ever. It was like something that oh, well, you know we we miss him, but not now. It
was ongoing, you know. Ah and to this day, you know, I think the best form of the Dubies to this day is with Tom and uh when we go out and play, we we enjoy a whole other kind of energy with the band, to the band and to our live performance with Tom there. You know, there's not any of us that would would would rather not have him there. You know, it's it's the best. Like I said, the
best form of the Doobies areas for all of us. Uh. But we we did play you know without him for for could spend time there and uh that we we kind of closed ranks musically, you know in some ways. Uh, but uh it was never hard to you know, uh take the stage with Tom again. You know, it was a natural thing, you know. Uh he takes his place in the band rightfully. So uh uh and uh you know in many ways need to charge musically when he's there.
For me, I always enjoyed playing his music, you know, you know, with or without Tom there, I just always loved the songs. You know, long train and listen to music as a silver I have to say, guilty pleasure. I enjoyed singing them too, you know. So when Tom would come back and I was like, Okay, well I
don't get to sing that anymore. But but in some ways it was kind of fun too, because I would pay a little more attention to what I was playing, because when I'm singing and playing, I have to kind of dumb down my part a little bit just so that I pay attention to singing a song enough, you know. So when he would come back, I'd find, oh, I got to play orient on this in this section, or I could do this, and so it was always, you know, some part of that that was enjoyable too. But I
always enjoyed the Doobie Songbook. I was missed playing it
when I wasn't with the band. Enjoy my own songbook, and there's there's songs that I miss playing for my solo shows, but uh, but truly with the Doobies, it was always it was a lot of fun and a lot in a thrill to come back and play Blackwater and There's a Driven Snow, all these songs that I had really missed playing, you know, because a lot of them are are a little different, uh, more rock and roll than what I do on my own, you know, while which is a little bit more of an R
and B and in my show, I probably do more ballads than this band does, you know. Uh, but you know it's uh. That's the biggest part of it for me is being a part of this band, is the being given the opportunity to play these this songbook for the audience that loves it so much. Because some of these people have been coming to see us for fifty years, you know, and we we appreciate that. You know, that's as much a part of the experience for us as
it is for them. You know, I'm not sure that any of us would be sick to death of all these songs by now it wasn't for the audiences that we play for every night.
Okay, you have taken it to the streets, living in the on the fault lines, not really going in the right direction commercially, minute by minute, you know, is a gigantic success before it's released, Do you or anybody in the band know what you have?
I don't think we had a lot of confidence in that. Well. I should always speak for myself. I remember playing it for a friend of mine and who I trusted is musical taste. I didn't trust that much else about him, but I trusted in musical taste. And I knew he knew, you know, a good record when he heard it, you know, And so I had the rough mix. I said, I'm going to play this for you, and I was so desperate to play it for him. I met him while
he was shopping somewhere. We sat in his car on the parking lot, and I said, you know, indulge me and listen to this and tell me what you think. Give me your honest opinion, because I think I needed an honest opinion. I knew if I played it for most other people, I knew they would even if they hated it, they would struggle to find some positive spin, you know. So I knew this guy would give me the unabashed opinion that he had, you know. So we
listened to it. He kind of about halfway through the album, when he wasn't looking at me, I sort of suspected, doesn't look good. And then when the last song finished, he just kind of stared straight ahead for a minute. It looked over ringas this is a piece of shit, sorry, you know, And I remember what came out of my mouth. It was like I said something I was afraid of that or something. You know. It's like I co signed it, you know, for that moment, you know, because I didn't know.
I didn't know if it was a good album or not. You know, I didn't know if this was me taking the band down for the last time and into the shitter and h never to return. You know. It was my biggest share in the moment. So when he responded that way, it was like it was like, ah see, I knew it, you know. Uh, And I is that really affected me. For the next few weeks when we weren't working, I was sitting around in my bathroom, you know, watching late night television, you know, uh, smoking pot, trying
to forget it all, you know. You know, I was really in the dumps, you know, about the whole thing. And next thing I hear is the records come out of the box like like a racehorse, you know, going on. The charts were sold thirty thousand units the first week, and and I'm like, what, you know, are we talking
about the same record here? And because even the people at Warner Brothers weren't that crazy about it, From what I understand, later on, people would tell me, Yeah, I was at that a at Army when they played your record. He was like, yeah, so it was a big surprise to all of us that it did so well. In fact, I think we were breaking up. We were at the
end of a Japan tour. We had gotten into some moraw over something and decided that's it, we're breaking up, you know nothing, that we're not going to do this anymore. We're all really, really tired. This was the end of six months of solid touring, you know, and we're so we decided, okay, we're going to break up. And somehow on our way home, a couple of us went to Hawaii just for some R and R kind of you know, look our wounds and figure out what we're going to
do with our lives. I got to call for pat because, yeah, it seems like we've got to like a record. It's going to be number one, you know, in a couple of weeks by any all accounts, and I don't know, maybe we should think about staying together a little longer and going on touring. And so that's what we decided. You know, how do you how do you break up when you have the top ten album and single and you know, it wasn't like we all we all weren't friends.
We all got along. We know, if we had our arguments, it was just usually frustration and we think the normal things that bands go through. But we all really always were cognizant of the fact that we loved each other as friends first, and it was really you know, what was most important. You know, I think you know, uh, it's it's it's too easy to let heavy resentments become
like your whole relationship with a person. And for whatever reason, I don't know that it was because we're such incredible people, but we never we never seemed to do that, you know, we we always stopped short of that. And if we and it has had a beef with each other, we we worked it out and we apologize, you know, and kind of go forward, you know from there as friends.
You know. Uh. Again, I don't know how we accomplished that and any but other than it was more important to us just to remain friends.
Okay, yes, you're saying back up in steely Dan, but that was seen as the two being guys you were in the Doobie Brothers. Patti is now the focus, even though you have tracks on the records minute by minute comes out. It is not only ubiquitous. You become one of the biggest stars in the world. You're singing backups on different What was that many people spin out at that point? What was that like for you? And how did you cope?
Uh? Well, I mean that perception of you know, a big star. I you know, I don't know, you know, I had my moments, you know. I'm sure I was hard to live with, you know, more than once or twice, you know. And uh, I remember talking to a friend of mine, you know, and guy to grew up with, and he said to me, gosh, you know, we all we all had these aspirations, you know when we played together back in the day. Because he because, man, and you've really done it. You you know, you're you're there,
you know. And I remember thinking how it was so strange to hear that, you know, because I guess I was so wrapped up in the day to day uh, frustrations of my own and feeling like, you know, a lot of it was that that what happens to people. It's never enough, you know, you're you're you're sitting around bitching about shit that you know you should be grateful for you know. Uh, you know, I was that guy, you know. I mean I didn't have to sign the sense to relax and realize that, hey, I should be
nothing but grateful right now. I shouldn't be sitting around here, you know, worrying about half the crap I worry about because it's not important. What's important is I've been blessed, you know. And if I don't realize that now, I'm
never going to realize that, you know. But uh, you know, I always approached the whole starting thing with a lot of trepidation, you know, like you know, the minute I walked through the door into the room, it's going to become when it's going to be when it becomes very obvious that I don't deserve this, you know. And uh so I was always kind of kind of you know, backing out of the room with it, you know, just for self preservation more than anything. It wasn't that I
was modest. It was just I didn't really want you to see me for who I thought I really was. You know, I didn't you know, I didn't have the social prowess to be at this party. You know, That's kind of how I felt, you know, so when I went off as a solo artist h after my solo record, I couldn't have had a better band I had. You know, edro Winter was in the band, Robin Ford was playing guitar, George Pearley on drums, you know, just great musicians, Willie
Inks on bass, Brian on piano. I was, you know, it still wasn't enough for me to feel like comfortable up there, you know, fronting the band, you know, being the guy in the spotlight. Those are really painful times for me just personally, you know, and I was always just trying to kind of hide that from everybody. You know, that guy, Hey, I got this, you know, but I
don't got this, you know. At the same time, you know, I had to work my way through all that, and eventually, as a solo artist, I got to where I really enjoyed it. I got comfortable with it. But I didn't ask myself to be a star anymore. You know, I didn't expect myself to be a front man extravagant. You know that that guy was, you know, the best show in town. You know, I just I accepted the fact
that I'm a pianel player, singer, I can deliver a song. Well, and I got a great band, and if that's what people came to hear, I got it covered, you know. And I can put together a show. I can sequence the songs. I can come up with the arrangements. I think we're best live. I can do all that stuff, and I can talk to the audience, you know, genuinely, but not try to be somebody I'm not, hopefully you know.
And so you know, so it's kind of like the Perry Como of rock and roll or something, you know, just you know, trying to be comfortable in my own skin, you know.
Okay, how much of this is raw insecurity or is it also leavened with social anxiety? Is it purely I don't want the spotlight on me, or if there's a room of people, I'd rather be home in the hotel room.
I think a little bit of the letter, you know. I don't think I ever really felt comfortable in social situations, you know, even whether it's a small situation or Lord, I'm actually more comfortable in front of ten thousand people than I am in a room with five or six, you know, uh, because I know what I gotta do
in front of ten thousand people. I just got to sing the song and play the right chords, you know, and I got all these other guys doing you know, uh the same making the same effort for the same reason. So uh, that's that's a lot more comfortable for me then uh. Uh, you know, being uh in you know, in the spotlight per se as we say, you know,
and that's how people feel. I think in social situations, you feel like the world of this room is revolving around me at the moment, and usually it's couldn't referther from the truth. But you know, uh, that's that's part of having a self confidence to know that much, you know, to know that you're not the center of attention right now. You know, those of us who were in six tend to think we are okay.
So with this lead date, if you're not on the road and you're home with your wife, your kids are out of the house, are you the type of person who's ringing up all your friends making social engagements? Are you the type person, Well, somebody reaches out to me, I'll reconnect, but more I'm doing my own thing.
I'd rather do my own thing, you know. My wife and I would like to kind of covet our time together when I'm home, because lately it seems like I've been busier than ever, you know, I really there was a period of time just prior to this, of course with COVID too, but we we really enjoyed just being alone together, you know, and being kind of isolated to a fall, you know, because I think we got we got to be like homebodies, you know. But but I
have always been that way. I've always been more comfortable alone, you know, in my own little world. And and my wife and I are soulmates to large degree. We you know, We're very comfortable with each other. You know, I would rather not have a lot of social obligations. It comes with the territory being being a musician and a celebrity musician or whatever. Uh So there's always something going on that I have to do, ah and and it's not that I don't enjoy them once I get there, but
I never feel like doing that, you know. I always feel like, God, I'm gonna have to get ready for this. What's the song they want me to do? I gotta remember remember the lyrics, you know, all that stuff that you go through, and you wonder if you know Am I going to say something stupid backstage, you know, to somebody you know, but you you do it. But my brothers, I would rather just go down to the beach with the dogs and you know, get as much of that kind of time in as I can while I can. You know.
Okay, you make a record with the woman Amy who is now your wife, you reconnect years later, it becomes a romance. We're guys, we know how this works. In the back of your mind, did you say, oh, that woman Amy, maybe she's right, I got a thing for that. Or was it like, holy fuck, now it's Amy and we're connected. What was it like?
I think I always had a crush on her, you know, from the first time I met her. You know, she just was very special to me, you know. And it wasn't like I hadn't been in love before, you know, someone who was very special to me. You know, I had a crush on you know, like most guys, you know, but she stood out, you know to me. And I loved her voice too when I when I worked with her, she just said such a kind of a I would
consider kind of a sexy voice to me. You know, she wasn't a belter you know, she wasn't like this powerhouse female singer. She was more of a kind of a folky not even met Joni Mitchell or Alison Krause kind of you know, where she had kind of a very ethereal tambre to her voice. It was, you know, they're feminine and beautiful, you know, and brought a certain kind of feeling too melody, you know. And I always
liked that she had a yeol little too. She always used to kind of yield a little bit when she sang, and I just enjoyed her voice very much. I always thought if I ever produced somebody, I would like to do a record with her, you know, But I hadn't thought about it that much recently until this year of the night we played the Forum again in LA and
that's actually where we got back together. We met again because she was in the audience and she sent a note up to do one of the guys it was mixing front of the house back to me and uh and uh. So I got in touch with her and I said, well, well, well we should definitely think about doing a record, you know, with you and uh And in the back of my mind I wanted to see
her again. You know. So when we got together, we we hit it off like it was you know, we hadn't as if we'd been friends the whole time, you know, and uh, there's just something about her that it was was immediately engaging to me, you know. And uh, the record we did was fun, but it was it was I had trouble committing to a time frame because I was touring with the band, and so it took a better part of a couple of years to do the record. But every time that we got in the studio together,
it was a real joy, you know. Uh. And Amy you know really uh I started to rediscover her talent, you know, and was as much a part of it. So to you know, to actually finish that record and uh, you know, get nominated for a Grammy with it, you know, it was like, you know, like the dream come true. You know for me, I I to be a producer
at all would have been a dream come true. But uh, Patrick Henderson and I produced that record on her and for Capital, and so you know that was uh and in course of all of it, we you know, uh kind of uh reunited in a relationship that uh had you know been you know, we had met in the years past from time to time, and even you know, uh, you know, I knew that we had something between us, but it seemed like we always went separate ways, you know, and I, you know, I wasn't really at that point
in my life a good you know, as far as you know, relationship material, and probably she wasn't either, you know. We were just both kind of pursuing our careers, living our lives, you know, as best we could. So now you know, we were working together and we were pretty much in constant contact again, and it was inevitable, I think, for us to get together and get married have kids.
And that's the remarkable part to me. I look back on some of the first times I met her, thinking, you know, I wish you didn't have a boyfriend and you know, or whatever it was at the time. And to think that all these years later we rapsed two kids together and were in their thirties and been married for almost you know, coming up on fifty years here in Attle, while kind of amazing.
You know, when she sent that note, do you think in the back of her mind she thought romance too.
I don't know, I don't know. I think she might have been thinking more of maybe maybe this guy could produce my next rador, but I'll take it. Whatever it was. It was we were we were laughing the other night because she was at the gig with me for him. This is where it all started, you know. You know, we hadn't thought about that in a while until we were kind of sitting around the back at the stage of the floor when she was young. And you're right,
or I said you that note. The rest is history, as they say.
Okay, a lot of the book focuses on drugs and alcohol. People don't see you that way. That's kind of a revelation. So what was that all about drinking and drugging?
Well, I think it was about what it's about for most people who suffer from addiction. Uh. I mean, there's nuns and priests and doctors and lawyers who suffer from addiction who you probably wouldn't necessarily until it gets so
bad that you know it's obvious. But the great obsession of every person who drinks is too to drink and use like other people, you know, normal people, you know, so you you devise all these incredible schemes and ways to uh hyde the tactic that's not really what's going on? And uh it's uh, it's alone arduous journey, you know, into that world of addiction. Uh. And it was a battle I certainly lost, you know, and it's surrendering and
losing ultimately losing to it. I found something much better, you know, which was uh, you know, sobriety and uh living bile without any of that and uh and maybe understanding myself a little bit more as a spiritual being as a human. You know that that I entered a world where there's not many coincidences. Uh, when I entered the world sober, you know, re entered the world sober. I I when I'm paying attention, which isn't all that often. But when I am paying attention, I noticed that everything
has a meaning. Things have meaning that I would have seen before. You know. Uh, acquaintances are not just acquaintances. They hold some uh information Hm that's there to inform me in a in a larger way what the hell I'm doing there and what life is really all about. I'm not much on the religion. I've never been very good at that, you know. My take on that is that's man's effort to create God in his own image.
That's why I look about religion, you know, uh, and anything that co signs us hating each other is can't be that can't be that great anyway. So I I think God in my understanding today is some God that is I'll never understand, you know. And I'm okay with that. Uh, I'm okay with a consciousness being unfathomable ultimately, but that it does exist, and it's better for me to plug into that and than to be left to my own thinking. You know, I don't thinking never did much for me,
you know. Ah, it was you know, just brought about calamity after calamity for me. But ah, when I do turn it over to whatever, that higher power does much better job of thinking than I do. I do better, you know. I I'm more comfortable in my own skin. I find that life treats me a lot better, you know. And that's the best I can come up with on it. On that subthing.
Okay, to what degree when you look back when you got sober, was their carnage, missed opportunities, fuck ups, creating bad blood because it didn't look like that from the exterior. What was that a factor or was that did that happen?
Uh? Yeah, yeah, all over the place. You know, I, you know, I seem to, for all my best intentions, leave a trail of wreckage in every turn. You know that I was my life had become some effort to stay a step ahead of you know, or h uh you know, uh, you know, like like a lot of people, you know, I've you know, I found myself doing things that I don't you know, I don't want to think that I'm that person you know or you know, uh, secrets I hope to cake to the grave, you know, uh,
things that I'm not proud of myself for. You know, I had to come to an understanding that probably well a lot of people have those things. That's not just me. And again that that whole myopic world of oh you know this is all about me. It's not about me, it's about you know. Uh, maybe I'm not that person if I actually have regrets, you know, and obviously I'm
not that person, you know. Uh uh. You know I've tried to make amends where I could, you know, and I haven't made all of them, you know, some of them I don't know how to make, you know. Uh uh. I look for the opportunity to at some point you know uh uh and I and I but in the in the meantime, I have to own it, you know. I have to know that, Yeah, that was me. I did that. You know, nobody else did that, you know, for whatever whatever missteps got me there, Uh, that was me,
you know. And uh and I am sorry, you know, but I I you know, I have to make the conscious amend two be better, you know, to do, to do better from my honor, to be to not be that person, you know, from this point forward. You know, I think everybody has regrets, but that's not for me to say one way there, I know, I do, you know,
but I uh. At the same time, I I believe that the most important thing I learned to do after in sobriety is forgiven and to learn to love myself, you know, so that I could actually have a relationship with other people that's meaningful, and that I could actually do the next right thing in the most spiritually meaningful way, you know, not just because I want to get something from you or some reaction from you, but because I because in my heart I know it's the right thing
to do, whether I really want to do it or not, you know, And that you know, uh, that's that's all the little difficulties of life that we all share.
Okay, there's one amazing story in the book, and I've even told this story to other people where your sponsor says that you have to make amends to someone who ripped you off. Can you tell that story?
Well, to make a long story short, yeah, I was. It was part of the amends thing. You know, I didn't quite understand, you know. Uh, but you know, I it was easy for me to understand when I did something wrong and I needed to say I was sorry, you know, if I could the opportunity came, I could do that, you know. But when somebody did something to me that I felt righteously indignant about, you know, and you know that was complex, you know in terms of
what my pardon it was, I understood it. Yeah, I probably have a part in this, and I need to be aware of that. I need to even in some cases apologieship. But it's easier ship than done if it's a situation like the one I was looking at. And you know what I realized in the first seconds of the conversation was he was kind of an awkward silence. Guys, like,
what are we talking about? Exactly, you know, and I realized, this guy hasn't lost a minute's sleep over something that I've been chewing on for twenty years, you know, and drinking the poison hoping that he would die, you know, in my brainstorm conversations that they never really had with him. I was setting him straight, you know, I'm telling him off in any number of ways, each one better than the last, you know, taking it from the top over
and over again in my brain, my little brain. And he hadn't even thought about it in the whole twenty years or whatever it was between the time that happened, and I realized that, you know, also that it probably would have never happened had I not. It had my fingerprints all over it. You know. I was famous, and I let you do something for me that I don't
feel like I'm capable of doing. And then I love to criticize what a shitty job you did, uh you know later, you know, but I gave you total responsibility for it, you know, and uh you know, uh so I you know, it was a lot of the learning process about what makes me tick and how I really create my own problems, and basically, when it's all a
sudden done. My biggest problem is me, not him, not anybody else, you know, not that person, place, or thing, but really how I react to it, what I do in the process of experiencing it, you know, And that's an ongoing listen. I have to learn over and over and over again. You know, I never gonna walk away with enough knowledge on that subject you to go, Okay, I got this, you know. Uh, I'm always going to
be learning that lesson, you know, in life. Uh, I'm always going to go there first unless I can find the wherewithal to stop myself and h give give enough thought to what I'm about to do next, or say next, or experience next, to maybe turn it over to that higher power we're talking about, see what possibly uh mhm, God of my understanding, what would rather have me do than what I'm about to do? Because if I get in the ring with anything myself, I'm needially going to
get knocked out. That's just h Yeah, my best thinking got me on a seat in that hy a meaning So I'm not you know, I'm not the best thing that ever happened to me. But not uh, nothing that really had anything to do with my prowess as a great thinker.
Okay, how did you end up hooking up with the Dubies for the fifty at the Anniverse? We tour and we know that it's business. If they can continue to book dates in big venues, people still want to come. Is this an endless tour?
It seems like at times, you know, we're enjoying ourselves, you know, I mean, like I say, ninety percent of it for us is is the audience that shows up, you know. You know, like I say, all these songs as much as we enjoy playing them, and we do, but we enjoy playing them for those people that enjoy them. You know, we'd probably be sick of them long ago.
But you know, to take into the streets. I don't know how many times I can sing that song, But really what it's about in the course of an evening, it's when we hit this intro or the song and the crowd you know, reacts, you know, positively and with with with excitement. Then that's what the song is. And that's it's that moment, It's that communion with the audience.
That what it's all about. It's not the song anymore, it's it's just the experience, you know, of playing it for people who want to hear it, you know, And as long as that's happening, I know there's any limit to what how long we would be doing this sort of health reasons, you know. But we're having a pretty good time of it right now. And like I say, we're no one's more amazed than we are that we're still on backstage stays that size playing for people in
the venues. It big. You know, I would have not given you any odds on that happening fifty years ago, you know, And we were just young enough back then to not be thinking too much about what we would be doing at this point in our lives. You know, we're very lucky to be doing this at this point
in our lives. Uh, you know, even with the in terms of like were some gags with the Eagles and all these guys that we knew in the seventies that we played with that we made records at the same time, Donald and Walter, Uh, you know, I worked with them up until Walter's passing, you know, And I see Donald talk to Donald, and none of us would have ever thought that we'd be taking the stage together in our seventies, you know, I just wouldn't have been anything any of
us would have bet on, you know. But you know, here we are.
So do you have a hankering? A lot of times people say I'm doing this, but I have a hankering to get back to my solo career. Is that going through your brain or are you saying this is good as long as this is good, all right?
I don't really have a hankering to get back to my solo career. I had a great band when I played with the guys, and I would love to play with them again, you know, just because I love those guys that I love playing with them and I missed playing some of those songs. But it's not like a hankering to do to be a solo artist again. You know. I really very much enjoy being a Dobie brother. I always did, you know, and it's enough for me, you know.
But you know, when there are moments when I do go out, I for one off, I just did a cruise and it was great, wonderful cruise with Patty LaBelle and Marcus Miller band and a great group of musicians. And I was doing a lot of the material that I did with my solo band and it was wonderful
to do those songs again. But again, for some reason, I'm fulfilled overall sense of fulfillment, uh, just being back with the Doobies, you know, and playing with Tom and Patt and John McFee and all the guys in the band, Mark, John Ed and Mark and uh, you know, I feel extremely lucky to be on stage with these guys, musicians of this caliber and people of this character. You know. There's just nothing better than that than hitting the road. And you know, the only thing when you complain about
is that we wish we were playing more. You know, we have a pretty much easier schedule than the old days. We don't play you know, four nights in a row anymore, you know, And there was something about that that I really liked. There was some kind of a you know, it lent itself to the development, you know as a band.
You know, when we played every night, you know, we would actually listen to our show the night before on the on the plane the next day because we were interested in just to hear how we were doing at this point, you know. And uh, you know, I think I think we all miss that a little bit. We missed that, you know, getting out there playing six five or six in a row because you your whole take on, on your perspective on what you do develops with that.
You know. And and now we're at that age where if we take a week off, we've all pretty much forgotten the song altogether. And you know, we're all at home woodshed and trying to remember the chords. And you know, uh that I you know, I don't have quite the memory I used to have, so uh, it's it's nice to get back together and rehearse, and you know, I have a reason to again. It said, if I have a reason to play music, that's what it takes for me. I don't do so well in my idle time.
Okay, Michael, I want to thank you so much for sharing your inner life and thoughts with my audience.
Oh, thank yous appreciate it so much.
But I will say this, if you're interested in any of this at all, the book really goes into depth. You know, it starts off with Saint Louis and it goes through every step. You know, the dark days in Hollywood, the family stuff, the drug stuff. Really get to know who Michael is. And you've learned some in this podcast, but there's so much more. In any event, Thank you Michael. Until next time, This is Bob Left, SATs
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