Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Starts podcast. My guest today is photographer Lynn Goldsmith. Lynn, you have two new books. Tell me about that.
Well, one of them came out in October of twenty twenty three, which is a book called Music in the Eighties, and the other book isn't out yet, it'll be out by November first, and that's a deluxe tashi and publication on Bruce Springsteen and the East Street Band with the possibility of you know, buying a print with the book. It's different than the Music in the Eighties book, which is Rizzoli, and that's a kind of normal what we
call trade coffee table photo book. And the Book of the Eighties was actually a book that I never intended on doing because I really didn't want to think about the eighties. I had a pretty bad attitude. And it was only because my publisher really wanted me to put something together that I realized what an amazing musical decade it was in terms of so many different types of music all gaining real popularity. You know, wasn't just like
jazz was in the background. Herbie Hancock was having you know, his probably biggest time in terms of selling records as well as Miles Davis's record, But then you had all this new electronic music along with rap, you know, with the Beastie Boys. So as I went through it and I realized just how free and open and how many things were possible in that decade, it got me off of thinking about the bad fashion and the bad hair, which it kind of turned me off to the eighties.
Now, your other book is about Springsteen. Why Springsteen? Now, you had a love relationship with him, but that was in the past. Why now?
Because Benedictashin of Tashi in Publications wanted to do a Bruce book and I wanted if I was going to do something, I wanted it to be Bruce and the E Street Band. And I thought that Tashion probably does the most beautiful job of production, and so I asked Bruce if he wanted, you know, wanted me to do that,
and he did. So that was why I felt that at this time, to kind of bring back a moment that happened, you know, almost four decades ago, and which is so seminole in how Springsteen fans are so dedicated, you know, it's part of their dedication, is the whole darkness on the edge of town period, which is what this book focuses on.
So why not, Yeah, Okay, I have a couple of tash In books, but there were gifts. Tell me a little bit more in my addings, a little bit more about tashi and how the production, how the deal, how many they print.
Well, it's a limited edition. I think it's fifteen hundred copies, and you can buy it with the print or without the print, and they're really considered collector's items that hopefully increase in value for the buyer. But the real thing is does when books are like sacred objects to you to create one that's really, you know, kind of like a work of art and goes very deep and is printed with the best printers in the world, you know,
that's that's that's a real gift for a photographer. So tash In books are what we call trade books, which is what I mentioned on music in the eighties. I think the retail price of music in the eighties is I don't know, seventy dollars or something. I'm not familiar exactly, but the tashi In book is usually, you know, like fifteen hundred or two thousand dollars, So you have good friends who gave you books.
Are books lucrative for you?
I don't do them to make money. With all the time that I put into making the book, I'm thinking about the fans who I feel deserve deserve the best that I, or any photographer who's worked with an artist that they love can give them. My time could be spent making money much quicker without as much struggle. But the fact is I also end up with something that I consider to be a beautiful compilation of my work, and that's generally how most photographers are. The publishers know
full well that we all want books. Artists, whether you're a photographer or whether you're Eye Way Way, whoever you are, books books add to your cachet, your ego as an artist wants to see your work in a book form. So the motivations aren't financial ones. They are for the publishers.
Okay, well, since we've talked about your new books, how did you meet Springsteen?
I met him in nineteen seventy two when Rolling Stone assigned me to photograph him for I think the name of the article was sign Up a Genius Month or something like that, something about signing up a genius yeah.
And you had a romance with him. Was the romance immediate or was that years down the line?
It was years down the line.
So how did it ultimately turn into a romance?
I guess, like anything else, timing and having an appreciation of the other person's humor, their work, and being ready or wanting to be in a relationship like anybody else.
So, since you were there from seventy two, the first album came out, Greetings from Asbury Park, The big breakthrough is in seventy five. Did you anticipate Bruce would become as big as he did?
Oh? I always thought that Bruce, particularly because of the live performances, was different than anybody else. And I would have hoped that with his talent and his hard work and his great desire to really be be it an important songwriter, a lyricist, that you know, that he would gain that because there's plenty of artists who have become quite big that don't necessarily have you know, all of those talents.
Okay, My favorite swing seen albums are the second Wildie, Innocent, and Darkness. You know there have been all these documentaries. There was one about Darkness. Why did you focus on darkness in the book.
Because I felt that that was a really important time in Bruce's life, in the life of the East Street Band, and it was a seminal moment where, you know, where I watched that Bruce could play in Middle America to a hall that maybe held three hundred and if he was lucky, there were thirty people in the audience. But he still did a three or four were our show and gave its all, and so did the band. Bruce
didn't just become who he is on Bruce alone. There's the energy of those members who who supported him in his real search and struggle to be the best that he could be. So my experience during the Darkness on the Edge of Town made me want to show Bruce's relationship with the band. You know, most books on Bruce photo books focused just on Bruce, and I understand that, but you know, I really feel that there was you know, there was it's called Bruce Spreingstein and the Eastreet Band.
You know, it's not just Bruce Springsteen. And I think that's also why Bruce wanted me to do the book. I think that he wanted to have a record of that time.
Okay, the book about the eighties you were a rock fan from a very young age, so you talked about the bad heir of the eighties. With this amount of distance, how do you feel about the music in the eighties.
Oh, I, you know, I thought I kind of made it clear that when doing the book and realizing all the different genres, you know, and I decided to do it alphabetically. So you see Banana Rama next to Barry Manilone. I mean, there were just I myself had a hit in the eighties, at least in the UK as the recording artist Will Powers, so you know, and that was
electronic music for the most part. So you know, it's it's that there were there was ska music that was coming up, and then reggae really sort of exploded in nineteen eighty when unfortunately, you know, Bob Marley made it clear to the world that he had brain cancer and
not a long time to live. There were a lot of artists, including you know, the Police, who got a certain amount of radio airplay and other things which I don't know, you know, before before that, reggae was popular amongst a certain group of people, but it didn't have mass appeal. I'm talking about mass appeal like the way Madonna had it and Michael Jackson. So you're talking pop music and then soul music also. So what other decade had so many different kinds of popular forms of music.
I can't think of another.
Well, let's go back to the seventies. How did you get involved with Grand Funk Railroad.
I was directing a television show called in Concert for ABC, and Joshua White was the main director. And I had told him because ABC was going to do their first special. Normally we just did concerts, but they were going to do with a number of artists, and so this was going to be the first time that the whole show was dedicated to one act. And I said that I wasn't that interested anymore in directing just concerts. I wanted
to do things, make films that were more documentary. And so Grand Funk Railroad had just released an album called Phoenix, and so I asked josh to speak with ABC about me doing a portion of the show at Phoenix House with Grand Funk Railroad, and they approved that, and I met Andy Cavalieri, who had just started managing them because they had left their manager, Terry Knight. So I have had a certain amount of experience in marketing and publicity.
In sixty nine, I did that at Elektra Records, and I made films for them, and I made radio spots, and you know, I understood from the record label aspect
what needed to be on to sell a record. And so Andy was really handsome, and I was tired of ABC, and I'd saved up enough money that I said to Andy that I had this idea for Grand Funk, and if he could get them to do everything that I say, that they'd have a number one hit record in all the trains three trades that were at the time, Record World, cash Box, and Billboard, and they'd never had a hit single.
So and I was willing to do it for nothing except when when I said they would get a number one hit, I wanted to be the co manager and Andy had really no experience in marketing or anything outside
of really setting up tours. So I also needed Andy because having worked in the music industry even in nineteen sixty nine, I was very clear that in order to get things done, being female was not going to be as strong as having a guy go in there and get the budgets and what's needed to make things happen. So I was very fortunate to that Grand Funk with Phoenix had failed so badly that they were open to
everything that I wanted to do. And the first thing I wanted to do was have them write a song called We're an American band.
Let's slow down the story for a second. You get involved with Grand Funk, not only are they on the downside of their career, this is a band that was hated by critics. It was a meat potatoes band from day one. You're someone who worked at Electra Records Grand Funk Railroad. Did you say, well, this is a way for me to get in. Were you turned off by the kind of music? What do you think?
If anything, I didn't really think much about their music. What I thought was that they were the kind of band that basically blue collar workers and a certain economic strata of people would save up their money to come hear them play. And I knew that strata. I'm from Michigan like they are. They're from Flint, and I'm from inner city Detroit, so I felt like I knew who their audience was. And I felt that Mark Farner was
a really good guitar player with an amazing voice. But I was not, and there were songs that I liked, but that isn't what kind of motivated me to really dedicate my life to try to making them number one. It was that Andy was so handsome and I was in love with him and wanting to be around him all the time.
Okay, the only Cavalier I know is Felix from the Rascals, Now I know, now, I never heard of this guy. Who was This guy?
Andy had been their tour manager and he was and he also managed me when I was will Powers, I needed to have a manager, but unfortunately Andy uh Andy passed away during the recording of my album, and I worked with Andy and Grand Funk for a number of years and uh over those years, as they became very successful, Don Brewer really thought he knew better than me and wanted to do things, wanted the producer that he wanted, and I just I couldn't go along with it, so I walked away.
Let's go back. So you're saying it was one hundred percent your idea to write a song we're an American band.
Yeah. Absolutely. The idea behind it was that I would create a certain kind of stage show. I would make videos that films actually that we could send out to army bases across the world, that if they just wrote a song, a simple song, we're an American band. At that time, all the English bands were taking over, and I thought that gives them. They wrote the Mark actually wrote the song, not Donnie. Donnie added to it, but Mark, being generous, gave him the publishing for it. But it's
really Mark Farman. And it was also my idea not only were an American band, but because they were hated, as you pointed out so much by the press and disrespected and nobody really wanted to hear or talk about Grandpak. They were sick of the Terry Knight lawsuit. So I knew that Todd Rungdren, who was a friend of mine, needed money because this new TV studio that he had built was not making any money. And I knew that the press at that time thought, basically Todd is God.
He was an artist that everyone respected and had integrity. So I knew that press wise, you know that they would respond going to Todd Rundgren and grand Funk. You know that makes no sense. We have to take a look at this. So it was really it wasn't that brilliant it just came out of me. You know, it seemed common sense.
Well, I actually would say it was brilliant because it was also a great track, but a little bit slower. You come up with the idea.
Well, I didn't write the track.
And I know, but I'm going there. You come up with the idea, how is it presented to the band, what is their reaction? And how long until they write the song?
Oh, the song was done like right away, and I didn't go to the band. Andy made it very clear to me that it would be much better if everything went through him the band. There was a lot of especially with Donnie. People don't want to listen to a quote unquote girl. You know, their macho, and so Andy would. Andy had never and neither had the band ever heard it. Even Grant Todd Runggren, they didn't know anything. But Andy would go and present it to them and convince them
that they should do it. And that was fine with me. I just wanted to do the work. I didn't care about, you know, anything else. I didn't care if Andy called me a publicist or the marketer or whatever they wanted to do. I just wanted to manifest my ideas. I was driven to do that, and I had a whole plan in place where there was a lighting guy named Jack Calmys, who I designed like an American flag backdrop.
You know. I had this whole idea for what it would be and what the show would be and how when people buy their tickets after you know, a hard week at work. This was going to be a party. You know, this was a celebration of America and a party. You know. I'm I'm from the city that, like you know, is is known for cars much less for soul music, and uh, you know, it's a It's America. So I
guess that's how it happened. But I also felt it happened because I thought there were just so many English bands getting attention and everyone wanted to wear velvet jackets and you know, be like the English rockers. So it was a simple idea. But then when when they made a demo of the song and I listened to it and I was like, that's it, you know, Connie from Little Rock, the whole deal I went perfect. So I could just run with all the marketing things, you know,
getting taking pictures and I wasn't really a photographer. I mean, I'm still I think I'm a conceptualist. I don't think I'm a photographer. But I set up things because I needed to get them major press where I would have Mark give blood at the Red Cross and I would take pictures of it, you know, because I really felt that if you could hand the press stories that had some angle and need on it and good pictures, they'd
run it. And they did so that and I think, you know, we did a stage show that for its time was hadn't really been done before. I went to the Library of Congress in DC and I got all the stock footage of a train coming at you. So how the show opened as the audience came in was this train. I had a film a screen come down. We carried movie projectors with us on tour, and you know, I would we'd project this train coming right at the
audience and then bam they hit the stage. So those were you know, I was so excited seeing all my ideas manifested that that was actually the best reward. And you know, thank god they did have number one in all three traits. Okay, Todd, Right, I look back now and I think I had a.
Lot of I think that's but we'll get to that that's your whole career. I discussed it with Todd. Todd told me that because Tod is, you know, uber talented, he can write the songs, play them record. He said, the song was completely done when it came to him, all record it.
Yeah, And that's what I told him. Because Todd didn't want to do it and he needed money, and I was the one who hired him, and I had to convince him because we both lived up We had a place up in Woodstock, and Todd it gets real cold in the winter. So I said, look, you'll go to Criteria in Miami. It's a great studio. Ten days, it's warm. You're going to get one hundred thousand dollars for ten days.
And I knew that his sound wouldn't interfear. I really felt that, even though he was very different than the guys in Grandfa because a lot of artists who work with Todd have problems with Todd because he's very He's doing it Todd's way, but Todd was he was going to do the best he could do. But he was really there as a great engineer. But he also mixes amazing and he's you know, I just intuitively felt it was right for both grand Funk and for Todd.
How did you meet Todd?
When I came to One of the things that I do, as I mentioned, I was will powers Is. I wrote songs and sang and I went to do some work when they were just building out the studio at Secret Sound, and Todd was under the board. He was basically building the board when I came in and we met and we became really good friends.
Okay, you're from Michigan. How do you get from Michigan to New York.
By playing oh a being? You know you? I had gone onto La for a minute, and I didn't feel that was very mean. And the second I well, first of all, I had already had experiences in New York. When I was in college. I had a band called The Walking Wounded, and we used to go to New York to play or to open for certain people a cafe,
wa and other places. And my sister is a painter and by night she was a waitress at Maxis Kansas City, so you know, I and she was also John Cale's girlfriend who was in the Velvet Underground, So you know, I felt really comfortable in New York. It was far more my cup of tea. I like to work and make things, and I like having friends who are artists, so you know, it definitely felt It's always felt like home.
So how does a nice Jewish girl end up in Nashville today?
By mistake? I asked myself that quite often, and I leave here probably at least once a month for a week to go to New York, if not more. I'm still trying to get used to the South. I have a thing that I believe in called the pattern interrupt and that's where you put yourself in positions that are really uncomfortable to you, that don't feel right to you,
and that should shake up your creativity. And so the move to Nashville was in part because of that, and also moving to Nashville provided me the oppert tunity to have the kind of workspace that I've always wanted. I need at least like eight thousand square feet, so you know, that's that's like i'd be. I'd be working for the bank if I was in New York, you know, and
in LA with taxes, that wasn't really feasible. Although as you get older the weather seems to be nice, but it did you know, I am scared by fires and earthquakes. So you know, so I'm trying this. We'll see.
Okay, So how many years have you been in Nashville? Uh?
Five? But I would say the first two years we weren't here that much. Who we my husband denied? Okay, yeah, and.
Your husband all? I mean, I don't know anything about the husband. Long you've been married.
Twenty three or four years?
And what is he?
Not quite what is February nineteen ninety nine?
And what does he do all day?
He says, And he plays his guitar, he reads books, he sculpts in the basement where his woodwork room is. He only gets a little spot in the workspace. I get all the big stuff. And he was an architect, so he designed our house. And you know, it's really made for the way that we want to live. And that's a real pleasure.
You're talking about the eight thousand square feet. Are the eight thousand square feet in your house? Or is that a separate location all in my house? How much property do you have?
Two acres?
So the workspace is that part of the house or a separate building?
No? That what we did here because I wanted it to be all in one work live, so most of it, you know, we live in maybe like fifteen hundred square feet of the eight thousand square feet.
And what is in the rest of the space, the other sixty five hundred square feet.
You got to come and visit. I have a print studio where I make large scale prints. I have a paint studio as I'm a painter. I have a photo studio. I have a gallery. It's a private gallery. I used to have an actual brick and mortar gallery in Colorado, so in the house. We made a private gallery online. It's called rock and Roll Photo Gallery dot Com. And it's not just my work, it's the world of uh, A lot of different photographers who who I personally think,
you know, that collecting their work is a value. We had. We have Terry O'Neill, you know, we had Terry before he passed, Gary Mankowitz, A lot of individuals who have made uh great images. Uh. So it's not just about you know, Lynn Goldsmith. But we made it private because I just really want to have people come who truly want to collect.
So how does a rock and roller meet an architect? Oh?
He my husband designed and built about five buildings at least homes recording studio uh Art building a home in Seattle for the recording artist Steve Miller. And Steve was Steve is a really is a close friend of mine. He and his wife at the time, and I would They lived in sun Valence, and so I would go to visit Steve and Kim for holidays and whatever, and that's how I met Sid.
Okay, and how did you ultimately decide to get married around age fifty, you know, as opposed to the previous period of eligibility of thirty years.
Oh, I knew that I didn't want to get married until I was fifty. I really work was always number one for me. And most men who want to get married want to have children, and they want you to be there for them. And that's wonderful, you know, I'm all for it. But I wanted to really make my focus on my work. And I didn't think that being a mother and a wife that I could be a good one if I had that drive that I had work wise, so I made a choice.
And did you ever have the urge to have children?
Oh? Sure, but then I would think about, you know, the reality of being a responsible, good parent, and I don't want to mess up another human being, you know, I wanted, I would like to, and I always sort of thought that the world was not going to be a great place for what would be my grandchildren or great grandchildren. I've always felt that we're headed for a very hard time. And I'm very grateful that I lived when I did and I lived the way that I did.
But I made up my mind long ago that I would get married when I was fifty, and that's what I did.
Okay, you're someone who's had quite a career, but you came of age during the mis era, Women's liberation. The Ultimately we have Cheryl Samberg telling you to lean in and then other people saying you can have it all. What's your take on all that?
Well, maybe some people can. You know, I can't really answer for everyone. I just know what I'm capable of or feel comfortable with, and I really didn't think that I could be I thought I had to make a choice be a good mother or you know, do my work, and that I couldn't do both. There are people who I'm sure think they can and they can have it all, and maybe they can, but that I knew, very I knew that wasn't me.
Does your sister have children? No, so both you and your sister don't have children. You think that has anything to do with your upbringing?
Not really. My mother was a single working mother, but she did marry when I was fourteen fifteen. My sister wanted to have kids, and there was a period of time where we even more so her. We went over to bet and adopt, did foster parented some children, and that just showed me, and I think has showed her quite clearly that you know, parenting isn't for everybody. We tried.
Okay, in your book, you say your sister is older, you say she is the pretty one, et cetera. Now, when I moved to Los Angeles, my sister was going to graduate school here. It's so I could stay with her a little bit. To what degree having an older sister or an entree help you to get established?
Oh? I think it helped me a lot. My sister she's very different than me, but you know, she was friends with people like I mean, that's how I met Carol King James Taylor. That was when she lived in LA She designed clothes for a period of time for a lot of bands, just her artistic sensibilities have always been really influential in my life.
So what is about her that she ends up being in all these spots. She must have something, some magic, some blitz with something.
Well, she was really she was talented, she was pretty, she was she was beneficial in two musical groups in how she dressed them. So, you know, it was a smaller world then, and I just think that people who people who are attractive have an easier time than being brought into the inner circle, so to speak, then those who aren't. It's just a fact of life. You know.
We all have our pluses and minuses. And so there are people who let's say, are overweight or of a body type that isn't considered Well today it's different, but let's say back then, but then they might have been really funny and people wanted them around because they're really funny, or they're really smart and they're well read and they inspire you because of it. So, you know, my sister and I were always very much independent artists, and I think that inspired some people to want to hang with
us and some people not. You know, I can really only answer, you know for me.
Okay, we're doing a zoom but this is not visible to my audience, but there are pictures online and you let your hair go white. How big a decision was that, Well, it's a bit.
It continues to be a decision. I can clearly tell when I'm not as accepted as I might be. If I had my long, dark hair. During COVID, my hair started coming in white, and I thought, whoa, I have white hair. I don't have gray hair. I've got like white hair. I thought that'd be fun to see, so I let it grow out, like why diet during COVID? And then I decided that like, this is who I am, and I don't want to keep dyeing my hair or trying to be young. And if in moments I do,
I can put on a wig. So I wear wigs and if I feel that way, and if I don't, I have my white hair. Yeah.
Do people treat someone differently if they have white.
Hair, Well, I guess it depends on your age. When Gaga had white hair, they didn't. They still treated her as Gaga. I think that you know, when you're my age, which I'm seventy five, and you have white hair, they're going to experience you differently. I mean I didn't really know that people thought I was maybe fifty when I was seventy because I had dark hair, you know, you were a hat And yeah they do, but I don't really care.
And what about other ways to keep young? Plastic surgery, liposuction, et cetera. Are those things you have a take on.
Well, maybe if I didn't have a loving husband, you know, and I thought I might be more attractive, maybe that would influence me. But I really feel like I want to see myself age. I don't really want to have one of those faces with lips that you know have been injected number of times or you know, I'm I'm I just want to be I'm pretty grateful, you know, for what I have, and I don't really care anymore. Sometimes I do. I mean I say I don't really care,
but you know, sometimes I do. I feel like, Oh, I'm not being invited or oh I'm not included because they think I'm old.
Yeah, how about the reverse? You know, this is more psychological than appearance. Are you ever with younger people and say, well, maybe I don't belong here anymore?
Yes? Absolutely, I'm with older people and I say maybe I don't belong here anymore. I I just am not interested for the most part in the things that seem to motivate, but I am interested in I have younger friends, you know, some that are in their thirties, some in their forties, some in their fifties, and generally they you know, they I guess they think that I offer them some kind of knowledge from the life that I've lived, so
they want they want to be friends with me. And you know, but that word friend can take a kind of wide definition or a very narrow one. You know, there are people for me that you know, I've known for fifty years or more and I've had a number of experiences with them over our lifetimes, and that's really feels very much like a bonded friend, and you can't really have that with a new friend. So it's more about the length of time that you've known someone, you know,
the experiences that you had with them. I have a friend Nancy, who we were partners at Life magazine. She was the writer, I was the photographer, and we would, you know, do stories together, and the experiences that we had on the road with Tony Robbins or when we did Michael Jackson, I mean, part of the reason I so value my relationship with Nancy is because only she, She's the only one on the planet, you know, other than me, that I can really share that experience with,
you know, because we were there together. So, you know, friends, I definitely need them, and I like to have some new friends, but having my old friends is what really makes me feel connected.
Let's say, because you live in Nashville, which is a music city, Let's say, okay I called you up, or no one calls I emailed. Let's go to Bridgestone Arena to see a relatively new act, or go to a club to see a holy new act. What would you say, go to.
A club for a holy new act. I got asked the other night go to a club with a holy new act. I got asked the other night to go to bridge Stone Arena by a friend of mine who's probably about forty five maybe at most will and he's a Fish fan. And he said, I have a ticket, you know, will you come with me to bridge Stone Arena Sea Fish. I said, absolutely not. I'd rather go see Joe Blow at some place you know, like Grimey's or whatever that holds twenty people. That to me is fun.
Well, let me change a little bit. How hard is it to get you out of the house to do these things where you made your name.
Oh, that's very funny. That's a really good question. It's real hard to get me out of the house. It's not if we're well in New York for me to do other things, not to like go to Madison Square Garden or you know, things like that. But I get out of the house a lot there. But here, no, I like to do my work all day and then either find some great documentary or some TV show to
binge you know morning news. Uh, that to me is heavenly going out and going I think here it's about the driving and the parking, because I do go out in Colorado and in uh in New York.
Okay, let me drill down a little bit further. To what degree would you not want to go because you said, been there, done that?
Oh a lot, really a lot. And now what's interesting for me is it's happening in in photographing people who I I don't want to do more retouching work I don't want to do. I don't want to do it. You know. I got a call from Alice Cooper's people because Alice was here in Nashville recently. This is before this album that just came out came out, and they wanted me to do a variety of things the band here, this, there,
like Nah, been there, done that. Not interested. So in some way it feels odd to me that I just don't have that drive anymore, you know. But if it was about photographing someone who's of who I want to meet, that's of interest and they don't have to be in music, I'm more likely to want to do it. But for the most part, everything in celebrity portraiture in the music world also requires a lot of time spent in front of the computer making people look like what they want
other people to think they look like. And it just doesn't interest me at all.
Yeah, Okay, and then you mentioned Colorado. How long were you living in Aspen twenty years?
Well, I kept New York.
Okay, let's just talk Colorado. How did you end up in Aspen?
Well, I lived. I had a house in New York and LA and a house up in Woodstock. And when I met my husband, which you asked about, which was you know, over twenty years ago. He really is a mountain guy. He lived in Sun Valley for twenty something years, and I had done I had worked about a month a year for National Geographic, and I had friends photographer friends who were staffed Geographic that all of them had
moved to Aspen and lived there. And so when we got married, we went and looked at Aspen because I knew that my husband couldn't really live in New York full time. He's the as most I think, good couples, your opposites. You know. I love the city. He like, he wants to see trees, long distance views, and I say, it's not about looking out, it's about looking within. And so I thought, well, let's go take a look there.
We're going to do a mountain town. And they have a place called Anderson Ranch, which is an arts center and everyone comes through there. I mean they really They're like a little mini New York. So I thought, uh, And it was much easier to get in and out of than Sun Valley. So I thought it would be good for me, time for a pattern interrupt sell La, stop doing celebrity as much celebrity stuff, and start investigating other things with your art. And that was why the
move to Colorado. Are you a skier, Yeah, I skied, well, I became a skier. Yeah, I skied every morning. It was great.
Absolutely. So you talk about these multiple houses. Was your career that lucrative?
Well, I always I'm a buyer, not a renter. It's the way that I am. And in those days, you know, things didn't cost what they do now. I don't understand how young people can do it now, you know. And I was fortunate because I might buy some real estate and sell it, and I made more money in the real estate then I did, let's say, for a couple of years of work. So it's all always panned out for me somehow.
And what properties do you and your husband own now?
We have a condo in Aspen, the house in Nashville, and a condo in New York City.
Okay, let's go back to the Walking Wounded. Why did you start a band to begin with? Was that a long time desire? Did you practice guitar in your bedroom? How did that come about?
Well? I always sang and wrote songs. I sang in coffee houses in Florida. When we moved there, I sang
in Freddie Neil's coffee house. And I think I might have thought that I would be a singer, and when I went to University of Michigan, there was a band starting up, the Walking Wound, and somehow the manager had heard I guess of that band that I could sing, so they asked me to join the band, and I played bass and sang, and unfortunately, on one of our trips to New York, I met a band called Children of Paradise and they then came to ann Arbor and played and we after the show, we all went out
in my car to look for flying saucers that seemed to have been spotted quite frequently. Believe it or not.
Let's stop here now, are you the touchy feely kind of person? Were you going to tell me? You know there are flying saucers and you know, don't use it.
University of Michigan and we were near Ipsilante, and at the time there were not that we believed in it. We went to see it. There were sightings quite often of UFOs, you know, it was in the ann Arbor News or whatever, so I wasn't judging it. I just thought, hey, let's go, let's go see if they're really there. And this band I got pulled over because I was driving very slowly because I kept looking up to see if
there were any flying saucers. It was my car and this band Children of Paradise already and Happy Trom they stuck there. I got pulled over by the cops because I was driving so slow and they stuck. I didn't know they had drugs and they stuck them under my seat. They were in the back seat. And so when I got pulled over and the police found the drugs and it's my car, I was rested and my stepfather said.
That it is a little bit slower you're driving. You're pulled over, which is always a horrifying experience at whatever age when they say we found drugs and it's you. How did you react?
Oh? I got down on my hands and knees and I said, you can't do this. I'm Jewish, I come from a good family. You can't. I'm I go to ann Arbor, you know. And they didn't care, and they took all of us to jail, but they let the other band go because they were from New York. So I got stuck with a felony.
Wait wait, so what was your feeling about them doing that to you?
Oh? I'm scumbags. What can I say? And later I ran into Happy and already one of them died. I ran into them. They live up in Woodstock, right, Yeah, and they know what they did to me, you know, and they left me there to hold the bag. But anyway, my stepfather said that unless I quit my band and I stopped singing and all of this stuff, that he wouldn't pay for my lawyer. So I made a deal with him, and that was why I stopped going in that direction and decided to focus on directing.
Okay, a little bit slower. You know, it's a big thing for women to play the bass. Did you know how to play the bass before you joined the band?
Not really. I played guitar. I had a Gibson guitar. No, but they taught me, you know, light my fire. You know, playing music is not that hard, you know, whether you play it well or not. I don't play well.
Okay, So you made this deal with your father, grand stepfather, excuse me?
Yeah?
Do you still resent him for that?
Oh? Not at all, not at all. No. Your life takes turns for various reasons, and it was why I then focused on directing. And you know, I loved making films. I loved doing what I did, and the deal was, you know that after I graduated and returned for six months to Miami Beach, that then you know, I was free to be.
Let's go back to the beginning. So you're talking about Detroit. Where were you born?
I was born in Detroit. You want to know the hospital?
No, I want to know how long you lived there before we moved to Florida.
Basically. I mean we did move once when I was nine to a different part of Florida. That's because my mother, she didn't get married. She was opening up a store that failed, so we moved back to Detroit. But my kindergarten through to tenth grade was basically Detroit, and then for tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade it was Beach Hide.
Usually that's an incredible trauma to leave all your friends behind and start over in high school.
Yes, yes, I didn't want to go. I was not interested. And it was also traumatic in that Miami Beach and the lifestyle with my stepfather was just so different than what I had had in Detroit.
In what way?
Oh, in every way. My stepfather was very wealthy, and he also wanted to take a hand in my upbringing as a I don't think I ever ate vegetables, and he was very hands on, whereas my mother, because she was a working mother, pretty much left me and my sister alone and I didn't have that kind of supervision. So at first I hated it, but I now am really grateful that, you know, someone came in and made sure I used my knife and fork, and that I didn't just eat with my hands.
And did your mother and stepfather were main marriad for the rest of their lives. Yes, okay, so you're in Florida like when the Beatles hit.
Yeah, that's my picture of the feet of the Beatles, So tell us that story. As I said, my stepfather and I really didn't well, I didn't get along with him because I didn't enjoy having this stranger come in and suddenly there are rules like when you walk out of the room, turn your light off, or you're being fine twenty five cents, a range of things that I was rebelling against. And he wanted to be on my good side, and because he owned hotels in Miami Beach,
he could. He did arrange for me to be in the lobby of the Dauville Hotel when the Beatles arrived. Only I wasn't interested in the Beatles. I didn't like the Beatles. I thought, I Want to Hold Your Hand was just a really weak song, and they weren't my cup of tea. So I told my mother I wasn't going, and she said, no, no, you're going, because if there's a choice between you and George, I'm staying with George
and you're gone. So with that in mind, I went to the Doba Hotel with my camera because I did like the lobby carpets in these fancy hotels, and I liked photographing the carpets. And when the Beatles came in, I didn't even look at them, but I was looking at the carpet and I saw their feet and they were all wearing James Brown's boots. Like a little light bulb went off in my head. I thought, oh, And I took a picture of their feet on the lobby carpet.
But I just walked away after that, and John grabbed my arm. John Lennon Happy Birthday, John Today's birthday. He grabbed my arm and said, d youre in all faces? And I said no, no, and walked off. And so someone from the Miami Herald was there and they asked if they could develop my pictures. They asked my father
and stepfather and he said yes. And so really that was my first kind of published picture and my story in the in the newspaper about you know, the little girl who didn't like the Beatles.
So but you ended up seeing the Beatles when they were there, for they were there to play the third week on Ed Sullivan.
Well, yeah, I definitely went, and you know, I mean it was a whole I remember it as like one time, you know, like going being in the lobby, and then maybe later being because it was at the same hotel as I remember. But the memory that is clearest for me is like I couldn't have cared less about the Beatles, and yet when they came out on stage, all the girls in the audience were standing on chairs and screaming, and I found that I was also standing on a chair,
screaming with tears running down my face. George George, and I it was like standing outside of myself because I thought, Lynn, what are they doing? But I was like George, George. So it's fascinating this kind of thing that spreads, especially I think amongst young girls or young adolescents who are that you know passionate?
Okay, you end up going to University of Michigan. Why as opposed anywhere else?
Well, I was accepted to Ragcliffe, which was Harvard because they were it was really kind of like one school. Harvard didn't take girls. And my father, my birth father, had gone to U of M and so I, for whatever reason, wanted to go and get a degree from the same school that my father went to.
And did you get in state tuition or are you're living in Florida A No.
No, I was an out of state student, which made it harder to get into and you had to pay out of state money.
Right, So you moved to New York after college? How long after college? You moved to New York.
When I graduated from college, I had to go back to Miami Beach for six months and teach high school English. So I was a substitute. Yeah, substitute teacher for six months, and then as soon as that time was up, I went to New York.
And you stayed with your sister.
No, I actually stayed with my friend Inky.
And who is incy.
Inky was my friend that I met at a bicycle shop in Coconhao Grove and Inky had moved there, so I went and stayed with Inky. At first she was on the Upper West Side, which at that time they were like dutings. Yeah, and how long do you live? My sister had moved to la by then, So.
How long did you live with Inky before you got your own place?
A very short time. I don't remember exactly, but you know, probably just a few months.
And so you get to New York. How do you get a job?
Well, I thought that I would direct films. So you start out by going to different production companies trying to get a job as a production assistant. And because you know, I was told you bring a resume and all the rest of it. And I graduated from ann Arbor in three years with two degrees Magna Cumlada. So when I would present my resume with that on it production compan and he s would say to me, well, you're not going to like run for coffee, you know, I'm not
going to hire you. So I realized I was like overqualified. And during that period of time I had met, through Inky, my friend a guy named Bob Zachary who worked at Elektra Records, and he had told me that Danny Fields was leaving Electra. I knew Danny because Danny had come to ann Arbor looking for bands when I was in the walking room, and he'd gone to see the MC five, US, the SRC KSE and Iggy and the Stooges, and so
I met him back then. But he was leaving and Bob told me about this position, and because I had learned that telling the truth wouldn't get you the job, I went in and told them that. Well, I had a meeting with Jack Holsman, and I told him that I had worked at CAP Records. And Jack cap who created the forty five, actually is my grandfather's cousin. When
they came over from Russia. He and my grandfather we're going to go into the music business, and my grandfather decided that wasn't a good idea and he went to Michigan and started a carpet cleaning company. You really want to hear all? Yeah, So anyway, I said that I had worked for Cap Records, and I also knew that if I got in there and did a number of things really well right away, that even if Jack Holsman were to find out that I lied, he would keep me.
So that's exactly what happened. I created a thing called the biodisc. Right away, I started making radios about a range of ideas that I had thrown at Jack in our meeting. Like I said, you know, you send out these bios to the trade publications. They get so many
of them from all the labels. You should be sending them, you know, a little disc And I had a thing that my mom had sent me from the Caribbean, which was a record that you could play right, And I said, and I can like interview your artists and talk to them and also cut radio spots. I don't know what I said. I made up all this stuff and then I did it. That's that's that's like grand prom That's what I do. Like they get up and then I do it.
Okay, So how long do you work in elector records?
Not that long? Because in the beginning I liked it because I liked the artists that I was doing, Delaney and Bonnie. Oh who is that great crew? The I'm blanking their name, you know. Iggy was on the label, a bunch of artists that I liked. But then he wanted me to do people that I didn't like, and I didn't want to do that. And I'm someone who thinks like, if you're unhappy at what you're doing, change it. So that's what I did. Yeah, actually I missed a step,
to tell you the truth. When I went around trying to get a job as a production assistant and they wouldn't hire me, I decided to try NBC and to see how it worked there. How you got a job as a production assistant And they told me that I could be a guide and after I'm a guide for six months, then I could move up to being a production assistant. Well, I'm a girl who graduated from college in three years with two degrees. I'm not spending six
months as a guide. So while I was being a guide, I got to meet people on this show called Personality, where you write questions for the TV show, and I talked my way into that. So I was only a guide for like, I don't know, a month or two months before, I was a writer for a television show called Personality. All you had to do was write questions. And then I decided I didn't like TV. I didn't
like that, I didn't like being around it. And that was when when I must have met Bob Zachary through Inky, and I went in the direction of music.
Two questions. How long did you write questions for personality?
Not that long because I knew I didn't like it. I really don't remember it a long time ago.
And where is Inky today?
I think she's in Greece. She married a Greek film producer.
Okay, so you leave Electric Records with another job or you just say I can't take it anymore.
Oh, no, no job. When I leave things, I normally don't at the moment have something that I'm going to. I just am like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I decided I had for my sister made studded leather belts, and I knew I could sell them to some of the musicians that I've met. And I also, uh became a peddler in New York. I had these puppets, uh marionettes. One is actually up there still. I would go to l A hold on if you don't, Oh,
I can't get up there anyway. I wanted to show. Oh, but she looks just like me, and uh, so I would sit uh with my marionettes at the episcopal.
Well you went to where did the you talked about going to l a, and where did the marionettes come from?
My sister and I went over to Tijuana and I saw these marionettes and I said, oh, I can sell those, sou So I bought dozens of them, and I told them when I went through the you know the customs, you know where you drive through with your car, that I was a school teacher and I was bringing them back, you know, for my kids. And then I sold them for a while on this street.
How much was the puppet?
I still have the case, one for three, two for five. And I would sit there from about four point thirty to six o'clock and I would make at least three hundred dollars in cash.
Wow.
Yeah, because people were leaving work walking down Fifth Avenue so they could bring a marionette home for their kid, you know. And I just did that for a while to be able to have money to figure out what is it I really wanted to do.
Wait one second, were you just standing there by the cash box or were you playing with the marionette? Were you closing the people? How much? Were you a salesperson?
Oh? I have a picture there. I had. I have a picture of me doing it. I didn't have to sell much. I mean, I just I had a case that was open and it said one for three, two for five, and I just sat there and played with my marionettes and people would buy them. And that was that. It was easy and I could do other things. You know, I had enough money to pay my rent to eat food. That was what I, you know, cared most about.
So you did that for how long? And then what?
I don't remember it. I don't I didn't do it for that long, don't. I don't really remember.
Well, what was the next job after that?
After that? That was when I met Joshua White of the Fillmore East and.
West that ultimately switched from Joshua to Joe. Was Joshua still doing the light show at the Fillmore East when you met him?
No, he was starting a new company called Joshua Television.
How did you meet Joshuaite.
Through my sister. They were both going to the airport to England and I went in the car with my sister and that's how I met josh And then when josh came back from England, he called me up. We talked about what he was doing, and yeah, one thing, you know, you just keep working. One thing leads to another and do the things that you love to do.
Okay, So you went to work with josh What were you doing there?
I was, well, I was a few things. I was a director because we did a thing called video magnification. No one had really done that before. You see it all the time now, large screens at events, and we basically did the Hollywood Bowl and the Guarden. And that was how I ended up at ABC was because we did that for I don't know a year or so, and then ABC came to Joshua and said that they wanted him to work on the first late night rock
and roll TV show. So when I worked with Joshua, I called all the shots that were not being recorded that were live, and he called what was going to camera? So that really helped. And I'd studied television directing, but actually doing it like that for a period of time, you know, really increased my skill and my confidence.
And this is in concert.
Yes, ABC in concert?
Okay, So how do you leave there to go to work for Grand Funk?
Yes, that's right, you leave Grand Funk.
Then what do you do?
Oh? By that time I decided that it was always photography that allowed me to travel meet people, do a variety of different things. So I thought I'll just take pictures and see what happens.
Just a little bit slow when you how skilled were you as a photographer and were you getting paid to be a photographer before you made that decision.
Well, when I did all the stuff for Grand Funk, you know, I did the three D album cover, that was a first and learning how to do things. I mean, no one had ever done a three D cover. In part was just me figuring it out. I don't think it's so hard to figure how to do things, and I was self taught in photography. I just to me balancing light and time, and then it's about the eye that you have. So and when it comes to pictures with people, it's about directing, which you know, I'm a
control freak, so I direct and it suited me. But it also suited me because I wasn't tied down by a lot of people or meetings. I could just make my pictures. One of the things when I was directing for in concert was someone from a record label was in the mobile unit while I was calling my shots, and he saw my storyboard and said he wanted to use one of the pictures on the storyboard for an album cover and I said how much and he said one thousand dollars And I said, what about fifteen hundred
And he said, okay, I got fifteen hundred. I get paid five hundred dollars to direct this show. And you know, I have to go to all these meetings and it's so aggravating, and I deal with stupid people that you know that it was like what am I doing? You know? So that was a key to me. Also, I knew from Grand Funk, from taking pictures of them and supplying them, that there was a market around the world. It wasn't
just magazines in America. You know, there's Japanese magazines, there's French magazines, things that German magazines, things that like you just don't think of if you're not thinking about, you know, being a professional in that field. So I just decided, you know what, for a while, it's just going to be me and my camera.
So how'd you get gigs?
Either? I made pictures and I took them around, Like for example, I took pictures with one of my dolls and I called it rape of the Doll, and I took it to the National Lampoon and Anne Beats was doing the first She was the editor of the first all women edition of the Lampoon and she published My Rape of a Doll. And by being friends with Anne, then I at all these other people from the Lampoon and I started writing and shooting photo fundies for them. You know, just one thing leads to another.
It actually doesn't that, but we'll get to that in a minute. So how do you end up shooting musicians?
Ah well, I had friends who were musicians, and you know, it's the subject. I'm not really into force people, not that I wouldn't photograph them, but those were my friends, those those were those were the people that I felt closest to be my tribe. I've always been about images and music. You know, those those two things have uh have definitely made up who I am. You know, That's what world powers is. Uh, it's a a strault of where imagery meets you know, music. My videos that were
not made to be advertisements for a record. They were made to make the idea bigger than just a song. So you know it's I'm turned on by by finding new things and figuring out how to take things that already exist and applying them in new ways. So a lot of the time, you know, I worked on beck. I mean when I started shooting let's say, pictures of Patty Smith, who you've become. You know, I've become friends
with her. We're still friends. It was more about because I liked your Patty did I liked what she looked like. I'll make some pictures and then I always felt, just like I could with the Marionettes, I'll go present them to the label or management and I can sell them. And I would say probably ninety percent of my career in that area of photography is me doing it and then selling it, not being hired.
Okay, how did it graduate to being hired?
I'm not hired that often.
Well, let's go back to when you start doing it. In the seventies and eighties, were labels and other people calling you to shoot different things, or was always the same you're shooting and you're selling.
Oh no, there's a mix. But more of it was me shooting and selling. And then there were times where you know, I might have been the flavor of the month for the art director at Columbia or the art director at Warner Brothers, you know, and then they're on to something else. But I would say for the most part, you know, you just keep on working, making work, whether
whether they're hiring or not. And you know, like, for example, I saw for Exampa when I was riding my bike in New York, and I saw him go into the Saint Regis Hotel, and so I wrote a letter and I dropped it off and I said in my letter, you know about how if he came to my studio, it would cost me about at least one thousand dollars, which is a lot of money to a Jewish shoot
with him. But during that shoot, I'd shoot enough setups that I could then go sell them to all the magazines, and he could approve what would go out, and if he didn't like my pictures, we'd kill them. And so he only had like an hour or two to lose, whereas I had one thousand dollars to lose. And I wouldn't be offering this because I'm not stupid that I
want to lose one thousand dollars. So Frank responded and called me, and he came over and we did the pictures and like for eleven years, I mean, from then on, anytime, the record label or someone wanted pictures. Frank was hiring me, So every situation is different. But I went ahead and did that with Frank because I really respected Frank Zampa and wanted to work.
Okay, you're working in the music area. You talk about your friend Nancy and Life magazine, you talk about national geographic. How does it spread out into non music world?
Oh well, I felt I had to do that in order to stay sane. In other words, if I kept bringing up music pictures, let's say the newsweek or Time for the people section, or you know, just saying why don't you consider this, then when things happened, you know, you get to know those people. And then when things happened like Challenger the you know, I went to Florida for the UH spaceship that unfortunately blew up with the teacher on it and everything. You know, you get those
kinds of jobs too, you know. There's all I didn't want to just shoot music. There are people, you know, like Danny Clinch who's a wonderful photographer, but he only wants to shoot music. That's what he does, right. I'm not like that. I'm not one thing. I'm not And just as much as I shot music. I shot movie stars, maybe not just as much, but quite a bit, you know.
I mean, I did Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back. I just saw the other day someone posted a nineteen eighty eight cover of one of my studio portraits of Griffin Dunn. You know. So I have a very wide range, and in part it hurts me because when people, especially nowadays, where there's so much coming at us all the time, when they think of you, they need to have you in a box, they need to associate you with one thing because there's just too much going on. And that's
not who I've ever been. I'm a lot of different things, you know. And that's the way it is for me. And it has its pluses and it's minuses.
Okay, let's go back to this era. You shoot, Frank, You're going to the magazine's selling pictures. How do you establish the price?
Oh well, they have rates. You learn that, but you know, you ask questions. They have a rate for a quarter page, a half page, a full page, a cover. And then also I joined the ASMP, there are unions that will tell you, you know, what the guideline is to be paid. But like for example, when I first started working for Newsweek. They told me the day rate was three hundred dollars. And then I talked to my friends later on who are gods, and I said, how much do you get paid?
They get paid five hundred dollars. So it's your job to educate. So I went back to music and I said, I'm five hundred dollars from now on, right, So you just have to educate yourself and take responsibility for it. You can't blame somebody for wanting to get a deal on you, you know, but then don't let yourself be used.
How about the issue of being fearful that the price is too high, they'll go to somebody else.
Let them go. That's how it works, you know, That's how you set your price. Unfortunately, there are too many, especially photographers, that think this way, and that's why it has so lowered the market.
Okay, so you talked about going to shoot the Challenger, which ended up being a disaster. That was a hired gig. Right the Newsweek or whatever said hey, good, oh.
I would yeah, or I would call them up. By this time, you know, things weren't email and texts and all of that. You went up to the publication, I had years of like being up there knowing them, and I could say I really want to cover this, and they know I'm good, so they would say yes. But it was most and it's not just me. Most photographers do suggest like when I went to a Life magazine and said, I want to do a story on Tony Robbins. And here's why, you know, I want to do a
story on this or that. If they think it's a good story, they'll send you.
And then there was like a going rate you knew to charge for that or was it a negotiation every time?
No, there were when you work for a publication there you know, there always is a day rate or what they call a day rate against space.
And then how'd you end up shooting movie stars?
Probably well I wanted to, but also like I met uh I don't remember who were the first movie stars I photographed, but I met Carrie Fisher and we became friends. It wasn't a matter of shooting, we were just friends. And then when it came time for the film, she insisted that I had to be the photographer, you know, so then you do one thing and that leads to
another thing. But I used to do a lot of suggesting to Newsweek in time of who I thought would be good for them to do a story or a little peith on in that section in the people section. I mean, my first cover of People was Sissy Space. That was shot. Sissy actually called me up because she wanted to meet Patty Smith, and I said, well, I'd
like to do pictures with you. I can have Patty come over, you know, And then I ran them around to the magazine and People Magazine used it as a cover, so people might think I shot it for People Magazine, but I didn't, you know, I shot it for me. And that takes a lot of pressure off as well, because you're when you're working with these people, you're just trying to collaborate and make something, you know, fun, and that makes them look good. It's not brain surgery.
How big a switch was it for you personally to go from film to digital and were you an early adopter or lad adopter?
Early very early. I'm always interested in new technologies and I saw them as different forms of expression and still do. Film is different than digital, and it's not that one is better than another. They're different and you choose them based on what you're thinking you want to experience and what you want the outcome to beate.
And do you still shoot film sometimes?
Sometimes I have a refrigerator full of it, Yeah, all ready to go. But I don't like the idea of then you scan it you know, because everyone wants to look at it digital, right?
And what editing program do you use?
Lightroom okay? And also photo Mechanic, And what's.
Your opinion about the ability to edit pictures so much? It's like, you know, I'm just even on a user level. Google introduced a new pixel where you can do all kinds of things, eliminating people from the picture, putting people in. Do you have a philosophy on that? No.
I actually did a body of work of self portraits where I photographed windows in New York City because it was the whole series was an investigation into identity and how do we pick what we're going to wear, what we want to look like, what are our body models? And in it nothing is really real. I remove things from the window and then I add other photographs, so when you look at the final photograph, it looks like it's one photograph, but it could be one hundred photographs.
I was creating images which question what's real from what's imagined. Starting in like two thousand, I started working on that series and did it seriously and intently for ten years. And so how I feel about it is if an artist wants to use that to make work which is a certain kind of expression of their ideas, that's their choice. Me I spent enough time in front of the computer screen for ten years that I'm just not interested in changing up reality and doesn't I'm done.
Okay, tell my audience about the Worldhole case, which went all the way to the Supreme Court.
Well, there are often people, whether it's on social media or individuals who think that they can make work from your work that don't really understand the cost and what goes into making that original image and the relationships. And so I've always been quite protective of my copyright. And in nineteen eighty four, an image of an image that I had made in nineteen eighty one of the artist Prince was used for an an artist illustration one time in Vanity Fair. I was unaware of it, and I
didn't know who the artist was. I had an agency that licensed rights to my pictures and to other people's pictures, and so when Prince died in twenty sixteen. I saw this image of prints on the cover of what's called a boocasine that Vanity Fair puts out. It's when the whole addition is dedicated, you know, to a specific artist.
They call them bookasines, even though it's amagazine, and so it looked familiar to me, and I went through my No, I know what I did look familiar to me, So I put it in Google Images and up came the nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article. That's how I knew like it is mine because my credit was there in
the nineteen eighty four publication. And so I went and I looked for my invoice that had been made out to Vanity Fair and the submission for any paperwork, which I save all of that because I'm well aware of how that can determine rights to your work. And called up the Warhol Foundation and explained that it had just come to my attention and that I'd like to talk
to them about this. And I sent them the picture the invoice, and I said, you know, I'd like to find out what else you done with it other than this, because no one ever licensed any rights from me, and to make a long story short, they did what's called
a preemptive lawsuit. They sued me in federal court and then basically offered me a very small amount of money and if I would give them my copyright and otherwise, I should realize that they have very deep pockets and that they no matter what court I win in, they will continue to appeal it all the way to the Supreme Court, and that could cost me millions of dollars.
Just so my audience understand, Andy Whirlhole essentially had painted on top of your photo, and that's what we're talking about.
Well, he made a silk screen, and the process of making a silk screen you take a black and white there's a high contrast of it, and then you take these inks and you go over it, and then you could put paint on it if you want it, but it starts that. That's more or less the process. And it was licensed for one time print use in one edition of Vanity Fair. I had no idea that there were sixteen silk screens and a range of other things
that had happened with it. You know, Andy Air re licensediff from me, and nobody else had either, you know, So.
Anyway, so they basically have a preemptive lawsuit, basically saying take this offer or will bury you in paper and costs.
That's right, And the paper was filled with a bunch of lies, which really got me upset. Said that I tried to extort them, which is absolutely not true. They didn't use the black and white image that I sent them. They used a color image, and they showed in the federal court documents how the color image the head was turned a little bit. Well, it wasn't the color image. It was a black and white image. In addition, they showed the nineteen eighty four Vanity Fair article and they
removed my name. It was all so gangster like and bullying that I just said, hey, I got to stand up and fight this. And I thought to myself, you know, I keep hearing from so many artists, whether they are musicians, writers, photographers, who are sick of people just taking their stuff. I'm going to have a go fund me because what's important here is that we tighten up the definition of what is fair use. It's very clear in you know, in
the in the legal definition. However, in my opinion, but there have been various court rulings where the person fighting it maybe didn't have real good representation, and it kept making the definition of fair use more broad, more and more broad, and I just you know, this lawsuit started in the era of the presidency of Donald Trump, and I just couldn't take any more bullying, pushing around threats of lawsuits, and I said, I'm going to make this
go fund me and if every even every professional photographer, of which there's one hundred and ninety thousand listed in the United States alone, ten dollars, I'd be in good shape.
And so unfortunately the GoFundMe, which is still there, if any of your listeners feel that they have a responsibility too to uh stand up and fight for copyright, I made it clear that there was no money in my GoFundMe for me to make and that should I be awarded any fees, that I would start a legal fund for other artists who you know, don't have the ability to you know, to fight this kind of fight. Anyway, it went, as we know, all the way to the Supreme Court, which was seven years. It was a lot
of my time. It was stressful, it was financially very stressful, and unfortunately, the go fundme to date has raised about sixty eight thousand dollars, which is nowhere near what it costs to fight to take it all the way. But I do you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't change my decision because I felt like I couldn't live with myself if I just back down. It's not who I am.
So you know, I sang Tom Petty's song to myself a number of times, and you know, and it's still not over with because it goes to the district court now, who decides if there are damages, and the Warhol people are threatening other things. So you know, I'll be glad when it's all over. But you know, it wasn't just a matter of me paying the legal these necessary to the level of lawyer that can fight, the level of
lawyer that the foundation hires. But it's also about being able to kind of look at myself in the mirror, and you know, just feeling like if you don't stand up for your rights, you lose your rights. I've said that for a long time to other photographers, to other artists, and it's like here I was, you know, in a position of risking everything because should I have lost, they were also suing me for their legal fees, so it would have eaten up. I would not have a condo
in Aspen or a condo in New York. I wouldn't even have a house in Nashville. I'd be on the street. So there was really a lot of risk for me.
So how much are you out of pocket on the legal fees?
Well, some of the legal fees are pro bono. So the total bill comes to about three point four million dollars and I'm probably out about half a million.
Okay, just so my audience knows. Describe the Ultimate Supreme Court decision.
The Ultimate Supreme Court decision tightens up what is transformative under the fair use aspect of the copyright law and how that affects us. If you go to the go fundme, it's gofunme dot com slash Warhol vs. Goldsmith. I explain and show how in all the arts, if I were to have lost this, okay, it would mean that if it was a song or another picture, you could just turn it another color, draw a circle around it, change a word or two here or there in a script,
and you lose your copyright. And I really feel that copyrights are what has enabled our American culture to be so strong and so powerful, and what are we but our culture? You know, I want to be in places where that's valued.
Okay, So just to nail it down, the Supreme Court ultimately ruled in your favor and said it was infringement.
Yes, okay.
So today, at this laid date, how much are you working and are you doing it the same way making pictures and then monetizing them.
Well, I'm painting and then I'll just side. You know, if I'm selling my paintings, maybe someone will walk into my gallery and want one of my paintings. I work to talk about and promote my books. I have gallery shows, I have talked you know, I keep busy. Is that what you're asking?
Well, that's partial. And to what degree are you making photographs?
Oh? This past year probably less than ever, although when I'm in Colorado, I'm generally making them almost every day.
Okay. Let's go back to thirty odds actually forty years ago at this point, what exactly happened between you and Bruce Springsteen and Madison Square Garden.
Well, I was involved with Musicians United for Safe Energy, Bruce was not, and I at the time also owned a company LGI, a photo agency, and so my company paid for MEWS. That was our contribution all the film and processing that would be done during rehearsals, during shows, handled the press of getting it out there to the magazines and newspapers, and worked on selecting what photographers would
be shooting what during the event. When the event started, Bruce decided that he that he was going to join in and play. And so we had a meeting, he and I because we were broken up and Bruce had started dating someone, and I wanted everything to be comfortable. So we had a meeting and I said, when you get there, which was going to be like nine o'clock at night, eight or nine at night, maybe later, I said,
I will be shooting front stage. I'll put Joel because I knew he knew him, you know, backstage with you. What I was going to be doing. A typical meeting, and that was I thought it was fine with Bruce. And then the evening came and there were a few things. One Bruce always got incredibly back in those days. He got incredibly nervous when playing Madison Square Garden, really nervous. Also, it was his thirtieth birthday and he had a whole thing about as many young people do, like when I
turned thirty. So he had a thing about like his thirtieth birthday. So anyway, I'm in the front where I said I was going to be about thirteen rows back with the film crew, and it comes time for I think a quarter to three. That was the song. And a few things that happened that were very unlike Bruce. One, because it was his birthday, someone handed him a cake from the audience, and he took the cake and he threw it back at the people in the front in
the audience. Bruce isn't like that. I thought that was weird because he would't want to like get cake all over people. And then on Promised Land he threw his harmonica with real kind of anger into the audience. And that in the early days with Bruce, I being how I was like with Grand Funk and everything, It's like, I think it would be a good idea, like to throw your harmonica, you know, bluh ohhh. And he got real mad at me and said that could hurt somebody,
you know. I was like, oh yeah, I wasn't thinking that. I was just thinking of like the picture and what I'm going to do here, and so I think that when you're young, and you are you've had a very close relationship with someone that if you're going to freak out, you're going to freak out on them. And when I saw him do those two things that were kind of violent and not like him. He bent down on one knee and he went like this with toll yeah, curling his finger and the look in his eye look crazy,
and the house lights were on. So I just grabbed up my camera bag and I started running down the aisle and Bruce jumped off the stage and chased me down and twisted my arm behind my back, and I kept saying, don't do this, don't do this, and anyway, he pulled me up on stage. Mind you, for a long time in our relationship, I did not want anyone to know that Bruce was my boyfriend because I want to be Lyn Boltsmith and I don't want Uh. I
was I was sensitive about that. I shouldn't have been, because I should care less what people who I don't know or really care about think, unlike what the person you love things. And so I was incapable of being really supportive of Bruce when he needed it. And uh, anyway, he jumped off the stage, twisted my arm and threw me off the side of the stage. It was a bad moment as far as you know, I'm concerned in
h not just for me. It was quite shocking for me, but I don't, you know, I kind of think that sometimes people who were in love or were close behave in ways that they wouldn't normally behave. And it's just really sad that this was in front of twenty thousand people and that it horrified me. And then the next day there were headlines in the paper, the New York Post about how I was suing Bruce. I never sued Bruce.
All of that stuff is like people make it up, and people made up for years that, like I was blacklisted from Columbia from anyone hiring me at CBS. But I wasn't about to go like, hey, you know, I'm the one who spent which is a lot of money, ten thousand dollars, like on photographer's film processing, getting all this stuff out there, doing all this work, giving my time.
This guy comes in at the end treats me like that, which, by the way, when he threw me off to the side, the other people who did run it like Danny Goldberg, they were all part of Muse Elliott Roberts. They were like pulling on one arm saying you can't throw her out, and on the other arm was like security people. And I'm like, I just want to go home, Okay, just want to go home. So it's a very unpleasant memory for me that many people have their own take on.
You know, they say they were there. I've sat at dinner tables where people are telling the story and obviously they were not listening when I was introduced to them, and they'll say, you know, something will come up. This hasn't happened in many years, but back then, so I was there. I was sitting behind her. She jumped up on stage. Blah blah blah blah blah. So people are
going to make up whatever they want. Bottom line, I perceive it as a moment that Bruce lost it, and because I'm it's the way you are kind of with family that nobody else should ever see, and you know, so it's a it's a real unpleasant memory for me because I feel like I'm blamed. I didn't do anything.
Yeah, when was the next time you had contact with him?
Actually it was I don't know if it was a year or two later. I didn't talk to him for a while, and then I was staying at the Sunset Marquis, and I think it was a year later. I was staying at the Sunset Marquis and the room above me was playing music really loud, right, So I called up, you know, one room flight up and I said, you know, can you lower the music? And and it was Bruce. So he said, you know, come on, let's meet and talk. And that's what we did.
How did the relationship end.
Nicely?
I thought, Okay, we've all broken up. Everybody says it's mutual, but it's always somebody wants to break.
It wasn't mutual. It wasn't mutual. I didn't want to be in the relationship anymore. And I think that's part of why what happened at Madison Square Garden happened. When he pulled me up on stage and said, I want you to meet my ex girlfriend, He's like announcing it, you know where it's like I had like tried keeping it secret, right, and uh, it wasn't mutual. I felt that Bruce really needed someone who was capable of really being there for him, and that wasn't me, uh you know,
like he really wanted me in La one time. And it's like I've got a shoot to do with Frankie Badley, I'm not coming there, you know. And it's like, you love someone they're nervous about something, What is that so important? Go be there with them, support them? You know? Is so h It's just young love, you know. But for me, I was very clear in my own mind, not only about the career that I wanted to have and that I didn't want to get married and the rest of it, but that I I didn't I didn't if I were
to be missus. I mean I used to that poor guy. I mean I remember, uh we Robert Hilbert, the critic, was a friend of mine, and yeah, and we were Bruce and I were at the movies or something, and you know, we'd be standing in line at the movies, and like I think I saw Robert and I pulled my hand out of Bruce's, you know, like I don't want to be seen holding his hand, you know. And then Roberts saw us. He said, oh hi, and and he proceeded to just look and talk to Bruce, not
to me. Okay, And for wherever I was at at the time. Poor b I don't say anything. Poor Bruce. We get home and he's got to listen to me go on about I can't believe that he didn't say he just talks to you. They think you're so important. I'm smarter than you are, you know, I mean that, poor guy, you know, I know. So I feel really blessed that I had that kind of you know, very strong love and companion at a point in my life.
And what I learned from it, and I always knew like, I don't want to be married to somebody who's on the road. I don't want that life. You know. It's one of the reasons I didn't continue on with will Powers when will Powers had success. I don't really want to do that. I don't want to spend my time, you know, backstage and all of that. It just it seems like a waste of a life.
How long were you with Bruce?
Alltold, I don't talk about it or count it. It wasn't really that long when you look at the length of our lives.
Okay, so I know enough very successful people they always say, oh I was lucky, etc. But they have to be incredibly driven and there has to be something about their personality. We've established that you're driven, But are you the type of person who was a great networker or was it like with Frank Zappa, whenever you saw an opportunity, you had the guts to go ask someone to do something. What was what made you so succesul?
Yeah? I don't think I was a networker, you know, that's not my thing. I think that I get an idea I want to work with somebody or I want to do something, and then I try to make it happen.
And to what lengths will you go to make it happen.
I'll put it out there and if it comes back, that's great, and if it doesn't, that's fine because there's always something else. It's not like that's the only thing out there, you know. That's how I feel about it. Yeah, otherwise you you'd keep on pushing, you know, and I haven't really had to do that.
Okay, Well, then I think we've covered it.
Okay.
I mean, you know, there's a lot more we can go into, but I think we hit the surface, went down a little bit deeper. So I want to thank you for taking the time with my audience of course.
Well, I appreciate that you that Eric put us together and that you took so much time too.
That's Eric Brazilian, well known for right eating one of us and being a member of the Hooters, who connected me and Lynn and any event. Thanks so much, Lynn, till next time. This is Bob left sex