Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsets podcast. My guest today is Lucinda Williams. This year published an autobiography, Don't Tell Anybody The Secrets I Told You, Lucinda. The book came out earlier in the year. What's been the aftermath for you personally?
Well, it's I mean, I've been overwhelmed with great responses and great reviews and everything, mostly people telling me they've read or they've listened to the audio book. A lot of people, a lot of responses about that. The audiobook. People seem to really be responding positively to that, and that makes me feel good.
And so you read the audio book yourself? Yes, yeah, was that like doing that?
It was interesting. I'd never done it before. I Mean, the whole experience of writing a book is different than anything I've been through, you know. So, I mean I've written songs, made gone in and recorded albums and you know, done all of that, everything goes along with making an album.
But it's there's nothing that compares anything I've done in the past to writing your own book and all the things that go along with that, you know, the editing and the the sending, the you know, writing a piece and then sending it in for the editor to read, and then getting the editors feedback and going back and forth about whether that something should be included or not, and you know that sort of thing.
So how did it come about that you actually wrote the book?
Well, for years people have been saying I should write a book, you know, because I guess it's because so many of my songs. I have a handful of narrative songs, and every whenever I perform, I always talk about who I wrote the song about, what I wrote it about, And you know, I go and try to go into as much depth as I can about the songs before I sing them when I'm on stage, and the audience seems to really like that and respond well to it.
What was the actual process, Well.
I got an offer from my manager, Tom Overbeek could probably have answer this better.
But who's also your husband, Let's.
Say he's awesome my husband, Yes, But anyway, we were approached by you know, a couple of different publishing companies
in New York. Of course they're all in New York City, and you know a bunch of meetings were planned where I would go and I would meet with the with the people at the poshing companies, you know, and they were all very enthusiastic, and you know, we would just talk about what kind of book I wanted to make, write and see, I said, make like I was making an album, what kind of book I wanted to write. And they were very adamant, all every one of them were.
They were all very adamant about that it be in my own voice, you know, So that was mainly what they were concerned about.
So you made the deal, they said what they want. How did you actually write it?
Right? Well, that was the thing. Before I wrote it, I didn't know how to get started. I mean, I just didn't know what you know, I'm used to when I write songs to getting ready to make an album. You know, I like to be in a certain mood if I'm going to be writing, And this felt more like work, I guess, kind of. You know. I didn't
have the luxury of being able to. I used to have this fantasy that if I ever wrote a book, I was going to be you know, like these writers you hear about you go away to the mountains and live in a cabin for a year, you know, they they have they take a hiatus, you know, to write the great American novel, and they sit there in their cabin and drink whiskey or scotch and smoke cigarettes and write their novel. You know, That's what I thought it was always going to be like. But it was anything
but that, you know. I basically grabbed a couple of legal pass ads, sat down in my favorite chair, which is a good start to be comfortable, and I started writing, just as if I were telling someone my life story. You know. I put everything in order, but I didn't want it to sound like Okay, I was born in late Charles, Louisiana, and then I went to this town and then I went to you know, I wanted it to be well written, and that's what I was mostly
concerned about. And I was very concerned that my dad wasn't alive anymore to kind of oversee my writing, you know, some because I could. I could have asked him questions and he would have suggested things, and so I felt kind of insecure because he wasn't around anymore, and I really wanted here's a good example of what it was like. I was backstage with Roseanna Cash one time at a show.
We were doing and we were talking about because she had written a book and I was talking about my book and everything, and she suddenly broke the conversation and said with Sinda, you don't have to be James Joyce, and I said, yeah, that's just it. I want to be James Joyce. You know. So I was kind of sort of holding myself back unnecessarily because I wanted to be able to have this well written, you know. I wanted the New York Times to like it and everything
and really want what it really was was. I wanted my dad to like it. And I wanted all of his writer all these writers I grew up with who are had this imminent respect for. I wanted them to appreciate it and like it.
Okay, so you finally get over the hub, you sit in a comfortable chair, you have the legal pads. The hardest part is starting.
Yeah, I had to have a certain kind of pen that I like.
What kind of pen is that?
See? I knew you were going to ask me a question. I wasn't ready for Wait a minute, Okay, I don't have it in front of me. I have to get one.
Okay, Well, irrelevant of the brand name, what's so special about that pen.
I just like the consistency of the ink then.
It comes out even when you write it, or the way it looks on the page.
Yes, both okay. Yeah.
And it's a ballpoint No.
I don't like ballpoint pens. Never have liked this.
So is it like a regular nib with an ink pen?
Yes, it's a John.
Sorry, we're gonna get a We're gonna get a verdict here on the pen.
I need that pen that a lot.
So it's one specific pen and you have to fill it with ink. No, okay, So here we have the pen from John.
We have the actual pen. Okay, it's called a Precise V seven. I've just done it. Commercial.
Is this You've been your favorite pen for years? How do you stumble on this pen?
I don't know. How do you ever stumble on a pen upon a pen? It was just around. I started riding with it and liked it. Amazon carries them, yeah, so.
It could be delivered. Are you a big Amazon person?
Yeah? I shouldn't be, though, because one time I was shopping on Amazon and Steve Earl. I was backstage at a venue and Steve Earl is there and he's looked over my shoulder. And saw what I was doing, and he said, are you shopping on Amazon? And I said yes, And he said, oh, I don't go on there. He said, that man is that's a bad man. He's a bad man, the guy who runs Amazon.
Well, you know, my opinion is this that I had too many times I went to the store and they didn't have what I was looking for, whereas I know they have it on Amazon. I'm not polluting, I'm not driving in Yeah, it's so convenient some things you can stop online shopping Amazon, Google. Yeah, but these things are here forever.
Yeah, it's pretty hard to let go of it.
Yeah, they're coming to my house seeming every day. So how many times did you start and stop and start to stop before you found your groove?
I don't know, probably two or three months.
Oh really?
Oh yeah, that's the other thing. I was talking to a lot of people about writing a book and read a lot of other people's autobiographies or biographies before I started mine, you know, see how they wrote theirs. And a lot of other musicians who had written books offered to talk with me about it, or if I needed any help, please give them a call. That that kind of thing, And and several of them told me how long it took them to write their books, and I
was a I was amazed. Actually. I think Ruis Springsteen said ten years. I think Roseanne Cash said seven years. You know, so that made me feel better about it.
Okay, so how long did it actually take you to write it?
I think it was two or three years overall, and which sounds amazing. It's not like I was sitting in the chair for two or three years without moving. But it's just more about life getting in the way, you know, and we had we were still touring and recording. You know, I was trying to write this book in the middle of all the other stuff I had to do.
Okay, you said something a few minutes ago about getting in the mood to make a record. Mm hmm. Tell me about that.
Well, I meant getting in the mood to write okngs right, yeah, to record for the record.
Well, okay, let's slow down. Do you say, oh, I want to make a record, I better write songs, or you're writing songs, say well, I have enough songs to make a record.
Usually that's a good question. I prefer it's happened both ways. But I prefer to just be writing songs and then have enough to go in and make a record. And I've done it both ways. I've done it that way where I'm just writing and I'm not I don't feel pressured about having to get in the studio by a certain time. But I've also had that pressure a little bit, you know, like we have to go in the studio.
We've got to have a record out by next year or something, so you know, we got to get these songs. I'd rather just concentrate on the songwriting and you know, be able to be spontaneous.
So what does that look like? Are you standing in the shower to go, oh, man, I got it? I got to go to write this song down.
Sometimes, yeah, I do. I come up with ideas in this shower quite often, actually, or when I first wake up and I'm in that zone between a sleep and awake, you know, and your brain's in a special kind of place. I get a lot of times I lay in bed like that before I actually get up and think I've got lines running through my head and then I have to find the voice record on my phone or something that I've got to get it down right away before I forget.
Okay, do this. Do the words come with the music or the words come down and then you have the music.
Lately what it's been, the words come and then I add the music. But occasionally it happens both ways. Occasionally I'll a melody will pop out with some words like maybe a hook line.
Okay, so you could be in the shower, you could be in the bitter and spontaneous. Do you ever sit down and say I have to write a song and start writing a.
Song only if I'm being asked to write a song for something like a movie or something like that. It's not one of the things I enjoy doing as much. I call it writing on demand. You know Steve Earl is speaking of Steve. He's great at that. He can just whip up these songs, you know, on demand like that for movies or TV shows or that sort of thing.
Let's go back to the book. You're very personal in the book. Some of these people are still alive. How did you choose what to reveal and to what degree were you self conscious about telling these truths?
Well, you know, when it came to talking about previous romantic partners, obviously I didn't want to start talking about you know, the technical, you know, how it was in bed with this person or something like that. You know, other than that too much alcohol may have been consumed and the night didn't go as well as I'd hoped. I think there's something in there about that with one of the guys.
You know, well, there are a lot of guys. I love this song by the Tubes called boy Crazy. Would you say that you became boy crazy?
At some point I knew, See this is one of my fears because I had so many guys listed. In every every other page I talk about being smitten with someone and worried that there were too much of that in the book. You know, I'm writing too much about these this guy and that guy and the other and you know, and now sure enough you're asking me about that.
I was. I was asking you that as more of a personality direction thing. One of the things I thought was great about the book was you talked about your crushes. You talked about your relationships in a way that people don't. I'm not judging you for that, I just think seriously, but I'm asking how you judge yourself, not how.
I well, I just I tried to look at it as as if you know, someone else were writing it and how it I feel, you know. And also I learned a little bit about that by reading some of the other artists books, like Carly Simon's book was Pretty you know, she talked about her relationship with James Taylor, and there are just a couple of things I thought, wow when I read the book, you know, like that might have been a little TMI. You know.
Well, what resonated for me was is said, what kind of guy you like? You would feel a spark and you would be active as opposed to passive.
Right, Yeah, well, that's great that you got that impression of me, wow, because I'm so shy.
Actually, well, I can talk about relationships in my life and biggest relationships when I was took action in a way that I would never take action, and I can't sit here and tell you why. You know, it's like all of a sudden, I did something was completely out of character.
Yeah, it usually takes a little bit of wine for me to do that.
Two of my most serious relationships went on for years that I took action, and I both times I could not replicate that. I don't know what I mean, I you know, I just acted in a way that I never would before.
Yeah, that's great though.
It is great, but as you talk about being a shy person, it's not something you can manufacture. Someone said, go do that. He said, no, no, no, I'm not.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you got married to Greg Sowders of the Long Writers, who I certainly know from the publishing world.
Yeah, you talked about.
Previous relationships of the book. Why did you decide to get married then?
Probably because when I you know, when I start the answer out with probably, that means I don't really know. Probably because he told me he was my ace and the hole. You know, I'm the guy who's gonna be here for you when all the other ones have left, And I was just ready to hear that, you know, And.
Okay, how hard was it to end it?
It was hard? You know. Actually I remember when he moved in with me. The day he moved in with me, I had all kinds of concerns and doubts. And you know, because I was very and I still am very independent, and I like my quiet alone time, especially if I'm going to write. So basically he became a born again Christian.
Oh why you were married?
Well, towards the end of it, you.
Know that's enough to end a relationship.
Yeah, it was.
One thing in the book that you mentioned numerous times. Is your OCD your obsessive compulsive disorder? Tell us about that?
Oh God, well, it's a real thing, for one thing, because you know, people joke about it a lot. Oh I've got OCD and all of this, but they don't really usually, you know, because if you really have it, I mean, it could be a serious thing, get in the way of life. I heard that Bob Dylan had a similar thing that I have, where you had you feel like, you know, you have to wash your hands on a regular basis, which is a good thing. But sometimes I've washed my hands when I don't really have to.
I just think, I do you know I don't like to touch door knobs because other people's hands have touched them. God, this is so embarrassing.
I can't I have OCD too. I saw a special OCD doctor about it. Really helped. Okay, I say, Lucinda, We're gonna go out for a burger. You lock the door, can you leave or do you have to check to see if the walk.
I can leave? Yeah, I don't have that kind.
Do you have any hoarding tendencies.
I don't know. I mean, I do save certain things like memorabilia, photographs and that sort of thing, but I don't like clutter. So if i'm I wouldn't be able to be a hoarder because of the clutter.
Okay, let's talk about making a record. You say that you like what you want, but let's go one step further. Let's just assume you're in complete control. Let's say you're mixing the final track. How hard will you be for you to walk away and say this is the one.
It wouldn't be hard because I would know that this is the one, you know. But the main thing with in the studio when you say I'm in control, that's exactly it. You know. If I am in control, then I'm able to decide which track is it is you know? Or if this is the track you know, as opposed to debating it with the producer or the engineer because everybody's got their own opinion.
I'm asking something a little bit different. Okay, Let's say that you are alone in the room, you were totally in control. Can you make a decision easily and move on or do you constantly ruminate or on the decision well, maybe it could be better, maybe this is a little worse.
It's kind of a hard question because I've done both things, and I might do one or the other. But I like to think that, yes, I would be able to make a decision and walk away.
Okay, because that's a classic OCD thing. Yeah, so you have your washing your hands, you have touching the doorknob. What else would you classify as your OCD?
That's it? I mean, you know what I other people consider OCD. I might not like I like things in order. I like things to be organized. I probably got that from my dad because he was like that, you know, I don't like clutter. I don't think that's OCD though.
That's just Okay, we're having dinner. We're having dinner, but we're just talking. The silverware is laid out, and you notice that my silverware is askew. Are you going to reach over and straighten it?
Yes?
And do you ever get in OCD loops and are tortured by it?
Yeah?
And what do you do to get out of the loop? If anything?
Well, hand sanitizer has been a game changer because then I don't necessarily have to find water and soap to wash my hands. I can just put you know, sprint, some hand sanitizer on, and then I'm good to go. So it saves a lot of time. But I need to have one of those with me all the time. It's like my little drug or my little you know, kind of it calms me down.
But let's say you're home alone, you're not going anywhere, and you wash your hands. How long will it take you to wash your hands?
Oh? You probably read that book Boy who Couldn't Stop washing.
Well, I'm certainly aware of this, and I have my own issues. That's why I'm asking.
Yeah, just a normal time, you know. I mean, I prefer that the water is hot as opposed to cold. But even if there's no hot water, I just wash my hands and go about my day.
Okay. So you have this itinerant lifestyle. Once you hit your late teams and you don't have great commercial success for the better part of twenty years, and you're working, as you say, a lot of low level jobs. You're working in record stores, et cetera. How did you keep your mood up?
Antidepressants? Probably just you know, the group of people I associated with were fairly up people, and you know, I tried to surround myself with positive people for the most part.
Do you take it or did you take antidepressants?
Yeah? I did, and I do.
What was the space in between? You were off antidepressants for a while.
Yeah, Well it took a while before I started taking them because you know, I didn't have anyone prescribe them. I mean, it took a while to find, you know, the right doctor to talk to about it and everything. But one of them is supposed to target OCD, supposed to help with that.
So which one is that?
Effects or is?
Okay? Yeah, I know what effects her is.
Yeah, it's supposed to help with that.
And you take something along with effects.
Or well, I'm kind of confused right now. That's what I'm talking to the Dodger about, is whether affectser is working on its own or if we need to, you know, add something else or take something else instead. You have to try out a few different ones to see which one works better. It sounds like you know this already.
Yeah, yeah I do, but I know my story. I'm getting your story. So you know, there's benefits to antidepressants, but I've never taken a drug without side effects. So do you find the antidepressants negative affect you in any way, creatively or in other ways.
No, it's I've just felt the positive effects which have been just lifting me out of this black I used to call it a black cloud. You know that kind of settles over you and you know, just or having a sense of well being.
Was this something you felt from a young age.
I've probably had problems with that at a young age, but just didn't recognize didn't know what it was, you know, just I probably looked at it more as mood swings, you know, that sort of thing.
Were you ever in existential despair? Like maybe obviously you didn't commit suicide because you're still here, But was that something you say like, man, I just can't take it anymore.
I felt like, man, I can't take it anymore. But that was as far as it when it was that thought. We've all felt that way.
I certainly think so. You know, it's hard to get an honest take from somebody. Let's switch gears to the beginning. You're born in Louisiana, your father ends up working in Arkansas. What the people from the north not get about those states in the South.
Thank you for asking that. That's the million dollar question. Well, what they don't get is that we're not all backwards. We're not all lazy or stupid or uneducated. We're not all races, okay, And I mean I was doing this kind of goes along with what you're at. I was doing an event one time where I was being interviewed in front of an audience, and I played some songs and then the interview is done as part of the performance, and then the audience was allowed to ask me questions afterwards.
And this woman leaned over and very seriously she asked. She said, you know, I would really love to travel down south sometime. But she said, what I really want to know is is it safe? Right? I mean that was of serious. That was you know, is it safe? Well, you know that answers your question right there.
Well, I lived with a woman for years who was from Tallahassee, which certainly you can go back a couple of decades was more Georgia than South, and there were certain certain things who were defined. She would say, you know, it's getting cold in here. It took me a long time race that man raised the window. We're in the north. We would say, can you raise the window? But there would always be these little kids surround that you got to pick up them.
That's funny.
And her father was extremely successful financially and ran in that crowd and drinking was part of the culture. It was not a class thing whatsoever.
No, No, that's not a class thing because I grew up with around all our of riders and they can certainly drink, they know how to drink. Yeah, I learned how to drink probably, you know, hanging around in that crowd.
And to what degree were you and still a consumer of alcohol?
Not anymore than socially, you know, So you don't have.
An addictive personality?
No, well I don't know. Maybe I do, but but I didn't get addicted to anything.
So we're the exact same age. You're growing up in Louisiana in the fifties and early sixties. What is it like? You say your family didn't have that much money, but you weren't aware of it. Were you into the modern music where you're listening to the Beach Boys in the Four Seasons where you're watching my three sons? What was everyday life like?
Well, you know, we all wanted it to be like leave it to Beaver, but it was not Leave it to beaver. You know, there was no mom in a nice dress, wearing heels, fitzing dinner and that sort of thing. You know, it was a little it could be a little chaotic at times. You know. There was my dad, who was a poet and a college professor, not making that much money, married to a woman who had was dealing with mental illness a lot, and then three kids, you know, running around. I don't know how he did it.
I mean, he would still be writing. I remember looking seeing him sitting in a corner of the in the living room with his head bent down over a padded paper. You know. He was either reading or writing all the time.
So he could tune out the chaos.
Yeah, yeah, he could tune out the chaos. And I wish I'd learned how to do that.
So you're someone who needs your own space, can't be interrupted.
Yeah, But my dad, at the same time, he was very we really bonded from an early age, and he was there for me, you know, when my mother might have just not been able to deal with things on any given day, and my dad was always there. You know, he was very he stayed very aware, and he was very open minded and you know, very intelligent and understood what was going on. You know. He was very empathetic
towards my mother is the thing. So you know, we didn't go up with this feeling of you know, he always said to the kids I had, there were three of us, I was the oldest. He always said to us, her fault. She can't help it, she's not well, you know, so we had somewhere to put it.
Did your parents ultimately break up because your father met someone new or it was time?
That's a good question, because he did meet someone new, but I think that was after they were already broken up. I think it was because it was time.
And how hard was that for him.
I don't remember it being, you know, really heavy and traumatic or anything. As a kid, I remember feeling almost relieved, you know, because there have been so much yelling and fighting and all of that that I think I was kind of relieved that that would be over with, you know, we wouldn't have to listen to the arguing all the time.
So your mother moves out. How much contact do you have with your mother then?
Quite a bit. She lived in New Orleans. After that, she stayed, she loved it. She was from Louisiana, originally, and her family was all there. So she lived in New Orleans and I would go visit her from time to time and stay at her apartment, and you know, we were close. You know, it was a challenging relationship and difficult at times, but you know I loved her and I knew she loved me, and you know, there wasn't any acting out or anything on her part with me. She saved that for my dad.
So when she moved out, she lived far away, New Orleans.
And how often we were in Baton Rouge? Okay, the university LSU Louisiana State University is located there, and that's when my dad was teaching, So we were living there, and she lived in New Orleans, which is right next to Baton Rouge. It's an easy drive.
And how often would you see her, I don't know, probably once a month or something. And how often would you talk to her?
Maybe once a week, It's hard to remember.
And when you interacted with her, did you end up being the parent.
Sometimes? Yeah? I know all about that stuff.
Okay, So your father brings home one of his students who is not even half a generation older than you are, and you're just hitting puberty yourself. How'd you cope with that? And could you ever accept it?
It was difficult. I didn't. I tried to cope with it, but again, it was one of those kind of strained relationships where you know, I've wanted it to be a certain way, but it was you know, you can't really take those things and force them into a certain place, you know. I think she was trying really hard, maybe too hard, to you know, fill this certain role, and I think I felt I remember feeling a little intimidated, a little shy around her, you know.
And then as a young person in your living in Chile, what's it like being an American living in Chile in a you know, a pre you know, modern technology era.
Yeah, Well, we had a stereo system and I had Beatles albums. I was able to get a hold of him somehow or another and was listening to those NonStop. And there was a chile and folks sing were by the name of Violeta Potta, who I discovered while I was living there, who I just absolutely loved, and she was kind of like the John Bayez of Chile. My dad was friends with. Her brother was the poet nikon Or PoTA, who my dad was, became close friends with and that's how I discovered VIOLETA. Potter.
Let's go back, how did you discover the Beatles?
Are we hearing them on the radio and falling in love with the songs and eventually, you know, getting the albums and or the singles?
Were you definitely a Beatles girl as opposed to the Rolling Stones?
Yeah? I was a Beatles girl and then I was a Rolling Stones squirl. I mean it sort of happened at the same time, you know, But I loved the Rolling Stones, loved and loved them.
Okay, So if you were in high school, how would you be described? What kind of person?
Creative? Friendly, cute?
Well? Were you one of those people they say, well, she's hip and cool, but she's hangs with the yard crowd, or she hangs with us, she's one of us, or she's you know, two cool, she's hanging with the cheerleaders. Where were you?
No, God, I was not with the cheerleaders. I was not with the with the gym crowd. You know. The working out I failed. I got zero's in Jim. I hated it. I tried to be on the girls softball team and that failed. Miserably because they were so competitive and so mean spirited. I didn't like mean spirited people. I actually had a lot of guys as friends and I would hang out with them a lot.
Are you physically active, No, you had a stroke, But before and after that, are you physically active?
Yeah? Right now I'm working out with the trainer and lifting weights in the gym. It's a combination. I'm working with somebody who's a physical fitness trainer as well as a physical therapist.
Okay, so what point do you pick up the guitar?
When I was twelve ninety sixty five, which is the height of the folk music boom, which I was really into.
And tell me about moving to Mexico.
Yeah, that was my dad received a grant to go teach in Mexico for a year and live there or for a year. That's a lot of the reasons we were in other countries was he would receive these, you know, visiting professorship grants. I'm not sure what they were called, but some kind of grant to go live in another country and teach there, work there for the time he was there.
And do you speak fluent Spanish?
I can get by. I wouldn't say it was fluid, but you know, because I forget a lot of my verbs. If I lived somewhere for a while right now where I had to speak Spanish all the time, I would probably it would improve.
Okay, So you get a guitar. Is it a nylon string wide necked folk guitar? Is it a narrow string steel guitar?
It's a it's an acoustic, but just a regular steel string acoustic guitar from what I understand, from what I remember, one of my dad's writing friends, his name was Bill Harrison. He wrote a book called Rollerball, which was made into a movie, and another book called Pretty Baby, which was made into a movie also, And he was a really close old friend of my dad's. And from what I understand,
he had left a guitar. He had this old broken guitar that he left at the house one day and I picked it up and just you know, looked at it and tried to play it a little. My dad saw me have an interest in it and he bought me a Dad ended up buying me a silver tone guitar from Sears and Roebuck. That was my first guitar.
And how did you learn how to play it.
Well, I got dad got me this guy to come over once a week who taught guitar lessons, and he was he had a rock band in town, and he was also a creative writing student. So he had been he had been at some of my dad's classes, and I guess they had been talking, and you know, he said, well, I give guitar lesson. So, you know, my dad arrange for her to come over the house once a week and sit with me and give me guitar lessons. And it took okay.
So in the mid to late sixties, someone would play the guitar. You would go to somebody's house and everybody would sit there and would sing. Were you the person who would bring the guitar and sing?
Yeah, I was the person who would bring. Or they would come over our house and we'd be sitting around in the living room. My dad would lean over to me and say, honey, why don't you go get your guitar and come sing a couple of songs. He was real proud of me, and I guess he kind of liked to show me off a little bit. And I
would go and get my guitar. You know, it would be in another room of the house, and so I'd go get it and come back, and so I had a What that meant was that my first audience was comprised of these brilliant minds, you know, these writers who knew everything there was to know about literature and writing, and they're listening to me, and you know, I mean
I was still developing, trying to find my voice. And what I remember at the very beginning was, you know, people coming over to me and saying, kind of patting my shoulder, is saying, you know, telling me I had soul, which basically meant I wasn't there yet, but keep going because there was something there. You know, they could hear something in there, even though I hadn't perfected it yet. I mean, I certainly wasn't joined by Azer Judy Collins.
What's the difference between Louisiana and Arkansas, Baton Rouge and Fayetteville.
That is such a good question. I wish more people would ask questions like that, because you know, a lot of people think the South is it's all the same in the South, and that's so not true. It's probably similar to like I want I might ask or wonder, what's the difference between Maryland and Connecticut or something like that. You know, well, the food would be, you know, the food that was the history of food that you know.
I mean, these are modern times now, so you might not find this true now, but like back in the fifties and sixties, you could probably find more of a difference between the states. But I mean that's true everywhere. I think. Now, you know, things have become more homogenized, and you know, like the strip malls across America and that sort of thing. Those have taken over. So now
you can't tell the difference as much. But back when you had the mom and pop stores and the mom and pop cafes and restaurants, that's when you would be able to tell the difference more. Probably like Louisiana, you would find more seafood and shell fish dishes that kind of thing. You know. Well, it's because of the Cajun influence, the Creole influence.
And what was Faydeville like, And.
It was a beautiful, almost ideal with little town sitting in the Ozarks, an incredibly beautiful area the Ozark Mountains, you know, and the campus was a beautiful campus, very progressive town. Like if you were going to live in Arkansas, you would want to live in Fayetteville, probably because politically it was more progressive than the rest of the state. You know, Bill Clinton was from Arkansas and he and my dad got to be friends.
When did they become friends winning Bill's.
Career, well, probably during the time I think when he was governor and at a certain point then during that time and and you know, there have been some really talented famous people from Arkansas at Glenn Campbell and the people there are just really cool, friendly. It seems to
be a creative bunch. But that might be because I was, you know, we were my dad was at the university there, and it was a college town, and you know, like most college towns, there are a lot of progressive people living there or working at the university or students going to school there. You know, so lots of pot smoking, lots of the seventies was a pretty really creative time
to be there. There are a lot of hippies people moving there because they could get land pretty cheaply, and you know, these the hippie tots would be moving there and building these little cabins out in the country and that sort of thing.
You keep on talking about your father's friends. Was he the type of person who was collecting friends in the center of the universe, always had an entourage. What was that going on?
Yes, he loved he loved to do that. Yeah.
And what was the food like back in the day in Arkansas as opposed to Louisiana.
It was probably more well, of course, depending on where you went, but the native food would have been, you know, like country cooking, you know, tam bashed potatoes, black eyed peas, that sort of thing.
Okay, you're in an era, you're a little young, but this is when all the racial stuff is happening in the South. A lot is happening in Mississippi. Yeah, there's a lot happening in Memphis, was just over the river from Arkansas. What was your experience with racial unrest and the quest for equal rights for all?
Yeah, well, I mean I remember it being just part of the culture. There was a white's only sign. I remember as when I was in high school. I'd seen it somewhere on the outside of a shop. It said whites only, or you know, you would see that from time to time. And my boyfriend and I jumped at our bicules and rode over there was spray spray painted over it. And my high school was I was very active as a teenager protest movements and marches and demonstrations
and all of that. I jumped into all of that with great fervor. And my high school. A couple of times I showed up at school and the kids would be marching around the school as a protest. It was almost like the union or it was almost like a picket line where you didn't want to cross through, you know.
Okay. I was living in Connecticut at that particular time, and there was a lot big social movement. We were protesting, and there were people on the other side, but we get the impression as you went down South, the people on the other side had more fervor, were more pissed about the people who were progressive. Is that true?
You mean the people who are the racist people?
Well, yeah, the people who didn't like you protesting.
Oh you mean racist rednecks in the South. Yes, go ahead and say it, go ahead and say that's okay.
So what was it like being you know, you're a big liberal protesting against the war and for women's rights, etc. What are the racist rednecks have to say about that?
They weren't real happy, just like you said. I think that was a global issue, you know, at the time.
So you moved to Mexico with your father, and you don't go to school, no.
Because I couldn't. I'd been keep out of school for being involved in these demonstrations in Marshes and as a form of protest. One morning in school, I refused to save the pledge of allegiance because we're in Vietnam, and I was kicked. They added that to my suspension and I went home and my dad said, that's okay, honey, We'll get you an ACLU lawyer, you know, and he did, and it proved to be unconstitutional. So I got let
back in school. But because i'd been suspended or expelled, I didn't have my pay proper paperwork to be able to get into school in Mexico. So I was just out of school the entire year that I would have been a senior in high school. And I just read. I became a voracious reader, and you know, listen to my records and play guitar and learned songs and I was very productive actually during that year out of school.
So are you still a big reader today?
Probably? Not as much, because I had so much more free time back then than I do now. It's usually now a toss up between reading or working on a song.
Okay, you're in Mexico. This is when you first start to play out. Yeah, how did that happen?
Well, that was me sitting in the living room performing with There was a friend of the families who his name was Clark Jones, who we'd met in Arkansas, or meeting in New Orleans when we were living there, and I think he was a friend of my mother's in the beginning. And he was a folk, a bonafide folk, and he's sort of reminded me of somebody like Pete Seeger.
He could play multiple instruments, guitar, ukulele, auto harp, and he knew all these old folk songs, the traditional folk songs, and so we would sit around and play music in the house. And he came to visit us in Mexico and we were performing in the living room for friends of the families, friends of my dad's. One of the guys who was over at the house at night worked for the State Department, and Clark and I sat and
sang some songs and the State department. Guy said to my dad, Wow, this sounds pretty they sound pretty good. What if we I've got an idea, why don't we? Min Or and I try to get set up some shows for them to perform around Mexico at different schools and places. And he figured it would be a good you know, like an ambassadorship kind of, you know, a good way to improved the relationship between the United States
and Mexico. And so that's what we did. So Clark drove his little car and I sat in the front seat, and we stayed in motels and roadside ends and you know, and did these shows as a duo Clark Jones. They called me Cindy Williams back then, and the Mexican audience just loved it. They just ate it up. We did Bob Dylan songs at Peter Paul and Mary and I wasn't really riding at that time.
And you were living in Mexico where you're smoking dope.
Yeah. I used to help meet with these kids in the park not too far from our house, and these Mexican hippie kids smoke pot and they would always try to get me to go to Wahaka for the mushrooms, you know, they would say, come on, Tony was you know, we have to go to Wahaca for the mushrooms. And there was this one guy who I was attracted to, and he kept saying he wanted to tenero sexel qiero sexel, I want to have sex. And you know, I knew what that meant at the time, but it wasn't going
to happen. And my dad found out I was smoking pot in the park and he got upset, not because of the pot, but he said, you know, I could get deported and lose my job and it would just mess everything up. And he was more comfortable with me staying at home doing these things, you know, drinking and smoking pot or whatever.
You come back from Mexico, you finish high school, you go to college for like ten minutes, and you drop out. In the book you say that your father says, it's okay. I mean, on the surface, your father's an academic. Both your parents are college graduates. What do they say about their oldest daughter says no way.
Well, yeah, my dad was very patient and empathetic when it came to grades. When I was in high school, for instance, I didn't do well in math I did. I did well in languages. Not good with numbers, good with language, you know. And he was saying, well, that's okay. As long as I was good in certain things, as long as I was thriving in certain subjects, he was okay. He didn't expect me to be one hundred percent with everything, and he just he understood. He just got things, he understood.
That's why one reason I loved it and looked up to him so much. This I'm not sure about. I'm not sure when you were talking about when I went to college for ten minutes.
Well, I mean it sounds like from one of the book that you went for like a semester and then you went dropped out, went to New Orleans.
Something like that. Yeah. I went for about a year to the University of Arkansas, and then at mid semester, I went and visited my mother in New Orleans, and I was offered this job and a little little place called Andy's on Bourbon Street. And that was when I called my dad and I was supposed to go back to school in the fall. This would have been in the summer, but I wanted to stay in New Orleans and play music at this little place for tips instead of going back to school. And he said, okay, he
just got it. He understood because he was an artist also, he was a poet.
When did you have the inspiration that you would be a professional musician, that you wanted to be an artist?
Yeah, well there was the time when I wanted to be the feeling of I want to do this, and then there was I'm actually going to make this happen or this is actually going to happen. You know, those were two different times.
Well, tell me about those two times.
Well, the first time was when I was twelve or twelve and a half and I heard Highway sixty one were visited for the first time, which was also the first time I heard Bob Dylan, and it, you know, just rearranged my brain cells. I didn't understand all the lyrics at the time, but it didn't matter. You know. It had an effect on me in a big way, and I decided at that point that I wanted to be able to write songs like that and do what
he was doing. And what I saw him doing was taking basically taking something like poetry and setting it to folk rock music. And I just the comment of those two things just completely blew my mind and I understood it on some level, even though it was only twelve, but I understood what he was doing artistically musically, and it really appealed to me.
So that was the inspiration. When did you say this is a direction I'm going to go?
That was the same time. That was the inspiration and the direction I wanted to go.
So when you're in New Orleans playing for tips, what's going through your mind in terms of your career?
Probably that you know, I was playing performing by myself, accompanying myself on guitar that maybe, you know, wouldn't it be great if I had a band like Bob Dylan had or something like that, you know, Or wouldn't it be great if people were listening instead of talking in the audience. And then over time, you know, that happened. I put a band together, and then you know, I remember the first time I performed somewhere when people actually knew who I was and listened.
And when was that?
Probably the eighties, sometime like maybe after that Reugh Trade album came out.
So that was a long time where they weren't listening. Yeah, tell us about making the two Folk wse albums.
Yeah, those were that was almost a well. I remember there was a friend of mine who had met in New Orleans by the name of Jeff Ampulsk, and he had recorded an album. He was a singer songwriter, you know, not known or anything. He was just getting started and he had made an album for Folkways, and he and I were talking on the phone one day. I was at my dad's house in Fayetteville and Jeff and I were on the phone and he said, you know, you
could probably make a record for folk Ways. And I said, really, you think so? And he said, yeah, I just send him a cassette tape and I bet they'll like it and they'll make a record with you. And I said okay.
So he gave me their information and I made a little cassette tape of songs and sent it to Moe Ash at folk Ways Records, and sure enough they sent me back a one page contract and a check for two hundred and fifty dollars, and I managed to, with the help of some friends, managed to scrape together some studio time at Malaco Studios in Jackson, Mississippi. Because my dad had a close friend who had connects there. He
helped make that happen. So I went down there and recorded my first album, which was called Rambling on my Mind. After that Bob d I mean after that Robert Johnson's song, and I went in one afternoon just with another guy named John Grimauda who is from Houston, Texas. He played really good blues guitar and he played he accompanied me on on the songs.
So you have finished the tape, you sent it to folk Way's Records. If you went to your local record store, did they have it.
Well, eventually they did. You know, if they carried records like that, yeah, they would have it. The independent record stores would have it usually.
Well, did you feel any buzz from having made that record.
Just locally? You know, maybe locally and regionally around you know where I was, where I would be playing live. Eventually I moved to Austin, Texas, and I lived in Austin and Houston for a number of years, and that's where I would have felt that little buzz, just on that level.
So you go to New York. You have these two guys, they put up money for a demo. No one wants to make a record with you, and you know, do you ever think man, I'm gonna hang it up.
It crossed my mind, but I didn't want to. I just I don't know. I guess I was, well, I see expression fool hardy and something fancy free and fool hardy or something, you know. I just I felt like it was going to happen at some point because I had all these people around me encouraging me a lot, and that kept me going.
Meanwhile, you're working minimum wage jobs. Yeah, minimum wage jobs are not that fun.
No, But you know, every other musician I knew was working those kind of jobs, and it just came with the you know, it's part of the package. That's just what you have to do.
So you weren't saying I'd like to have a house a new car. You were saying, this is what I'm doing.
Yeah, I mean I was probably thinking that in the back of my mind.
And then tell us about moving to La.
Well, I had some close friends who were real supportive of me and my music, and one of them was trying to become a manager in the music business. See, he actually ended up working with me for a little bit and he encouraged me to come out there. You know, I think I just went initially went out there to play. He helped set up a gig for me out there, But in the back of my mind, I think I was thinking I was probably gonna stay. I didn't know for sure, but I went out there and I actually
liked it a lot. I like the people on that I like the weather. Of course, everybody says that it's true, but the music scene was really viable and exciting. I felt like there are a lot of great artists playing around the city at that time, like Dave Alvin and the Blasters, and you know, the local music scene was just fabulous at that time in Houston, and it was
very eclectic. You know, there were these different kinds of music that were blending together, and bands like The Lonesome Strangers who played a hybrid of you know, a hybrid version of country and punk. They used to call it cowpunk.
You know. It's kind of like country music sped up real fast, and I would open shows for those guys sometimes, and you know, Rosie Flores was getting going, you know, she was creating a pretty good buzz, and Dwight Yoakum was getting ready to hit really big at that time, and then there were all these other like on the fringe kind of rock bands like Grin on Red and Blood on the Saddle, and they were kind of pump based roots like roots of music mixed with punk kind
of well punk Israeli roots music initially. But you know, so that was going on a lot back then, So there was an openness happening in that scene that it really appealed to me, and a lot of places to play.
Okay, just to be clear, you said, you said, you mean lost. This is all happening in Los Angeles. But the late seventies early eighties, there's a ton of bands, all the acts you mentioned, and there's a thin layer that gets signed and then the others seemed to work for a while and then spread apart, but you don't get a deal, right, How depressing is yeah?
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting because that hybrid thing that I was talking about also could have applied to me because I was met sing country with rock, you know, but or they said, actually I fell on the cracks between country and rock, and you know, they didn't know what to.
Do with that, you know, And you mentioned this in the book that the record company people are full of shit and don't know what's going on. But did you ever sit at home and say, I know what they're looking for. I'm going to write a hit, and that'll get my foot in the door.
You know, that's just it, Bob. I didn't know how to write a hit. I would love to write a hit song if I could figure out how to do it, you know. But no, I didn't think that because I was an died in the wool rebel. I think I was probably born a rebel.
Okay, it's seventy years old. Are you still a rebel?
Hell?
Yes?
Or as they say, hell to the yell?
How would that manifest itself at everyday life?
Oh? God, you probably need to talk to people who live with me. I don't know. I've just you know, the record you have to remember like back then at least, and it's still that way, I guess to some degree. But you know, there was that feeling of them and us. You know, it's like we're the artists. You know, we're
the creators, we're the magic makers. Those guys are the corporate business makers, and they don't know anything about creativity and art and music or anything, you know, record company people, you know, they're just it's there was this wall between the artists and the record company guys. Which isn't to say that there weren't some really good people in the record company business. There were some great ones, and still
are some good ones, but far and few between. You know, most of them were thinking about the dollar, not how creative something or how good something is creatively.
You know, from my perch at this late date, the artists changed. Where the rebel spirit that you embody and was in Texas for a few decades, everybody moved to the center. It's almost like politics. It's like, you know, the mainstream Democrat was let me say, like Nixon would be a Democrat today, which is hard to believe.
God, that's a scary thought.
All the artists, you know, Yeah, they don't want to be too edgy, you know, or else there are people with no talent or complaining and that's all thing unto itself.
Yeah, because you have to have if you're going to complain, you have to have something to bring to the table. That's the name of that game. You have to have something they want before you can make demands. I figured that out out early on.
You know, So you end up making a record for rough Trade. Yeah, Now, granted it was a different era back then. Today everything's been blown apart. But everybody who knew what Rough Trade was, which was basically an English company, would say, if you're playing roots to find music, this could be the worst label to ever make a deal with.
Well you might think that, but they were so much more creative based and open minded than any of the other labels who were approaching me. You know, most of a lot of the labels were who passed on me were major labels, but even the really small other labels passed on me, like Rounder Records and Rhino Records, which was signing people at the time, sugar Hill Records, you know, all those small folky, kind of rootsy labels. Except for
Rough Trade. They were the only ones who basically approached me and said, we like your voice, we like your songs, let's make a record. They'd never seen me perform live before, unlike Rounder Records. You came to see me play at this dive bar in La and Hollywood on the fourth of July or something, and I had a bunch of
the Longwriders guys sitting in with me. You know, it's a drunken, crazy night fourth of July, and they came to see me play, and you know, afterwards I talked to him and they said, well, we just don't thinking ready to go on the road yet, you know, because my stage presence with the band wasn't polished enough. Basically it's rock and roll, man, Come on, god, what happened to that? Like you were saying, you know, would that have happened back in the day in the sixties?
You know, when well the sixties, the executives woke up and said, we have no fucking idea, and they hired young people the so called my air Quotes label hippie and then then there became so much money in the seventies. And then by time this a little bit later, by time you hit the Tommy Mottola era at Sony, you know, the label head start wearing suits and they think they're the stars.
Right.
So, but the Rough Rough Trade album comes out. It is the most successful American act Rough Trade ever has And it's not like it explodes, but it becomes a real cult item, and as years go by, it gets gains even more and more respect. What was it like being the artist in that world?
It was awesome. It was great. I mean, the reviews were coming in the critics loved it. I was getting all this publicity and exposure, you know, for the first time. And ANDTRA I mean they were just a great little label. You know. They were independent though, and they didn't have the of course, the financial you know, they just didn't have the funds that are bigger label would have, so certain things they weren't able to do as well, like they didn't have as big of a staff, and they
had trouble getting the albums shipped to record stores. You know, the record stores wouldn't order enough albums, you know, they just order a few, whereas if you're on Sony Records or something like that, you know, the record stores order an enormous amount because you know, you're on a big label and there's more guarantee they think that it's going
to sell in the store. You know. So there was there were a few drawbacks like that, but just in terms of the heart and spirit of the label, Rough Trade was just you know, miles ahead of any of those other labels at the time. They sent me to Europe on tour. I mean, they really invested quite a bit in me.
Were you making any money or you were famous and broke.
No famous and broke, so.
You sign up, sign, you make a deal with Bob Booziak at RCA, he gets squeezed out, then he goes to Chameleon Pritzker's label. And how did you feel about that album coming out?
Well, first of all, I loved Bobbyziak. He was one of the good guys, you know, even though he was running a big major label RCAA, but he had the mentality more of an independent record guy, you know, So I felt really good about him, which is basically the only He's the only reason I ever went to RCA that had real mixed feelings about it, because I was on Rough Trade and RCA, you know, jumped in and
wanted to sign me. And you know, I didn't want to abandon Rough Trade because they had opened the door for me when nobody else would. So when that became a whole other story. When I went with RCAA. You may have heard the story about the A and R guy. He was appointed to me and when we were we were rehearsing with my band at the time to get ready to go in the studio and start the I think it was the Sweet Old World album would have been the next one, yeah, Yeah, and the A and
R guy. His name is sorry, I'm gonna say his name, Bob booziakran the label. He was in the no I'm sorry, Yeah, Bennett Kaufman was my He was that he had been appointed the head of A and R for the entire West coast of the United States, you know. And we're in this in rehearsal studio going over the songs with the band and everything, and we started talking about producers and I mentioned Bob Johnson, at which point he asked, who's Bob Johnson? Well, right there, you know, we've got
a problem. Who's Bob Johnson? And I said, well, you know, he produced Blonde on Blonde And he goes, and I swear that I'm serious as a heart attack. He says, oh, Blonde don Blonde? Is that a band? And I feel bad when I tell this story in a way because I feel like I just I'm you know, joking at his expense.
But it's very disheartening when they own you.
It's very disheartening. And I feel stuck and trapped, and I'm thinking, Okay, I've got to work with this guy now, you know. And it was just I was shocked. We were all shocked. The guys in the band and I just all looked at each other and rolled our eyes, like, I mean, this guy's credibility went out the window. You know, I'm never going to be able to communicate with or connect with him.
So ultimately, you make a deal with Rick Rubin. What's your take on Rick Rubin?
I was a little intimidated by him at the beginning. You know, he was a you know, rather large physical presence, really long wavy hair and a big, long beard. But he had his sweet nature, very good natured, and I could tell that he respected what I was doing musically. And you know, who knows what would have happened had he actually become the producer of my next album. Look
what he did for the Beastie Boys. He invited me over to his house into the Hollywood Hills, which was massively impressive along just that alone his home there, and we sat around in his living room with the stereo system and all these records piled up in CDs, and he said, I have an album I want to play you, and it was PJ. Harvey's. It might have been her first album, I'm not sure. It was the one that The Edge produced. And he's you know, he's this is what I have in mind for you kind of that's
what he told me. I think he got me basically, but I think he also saw more possibilities than had been explored. Maybe.
Okay, even when he does produce you, he's a pretty hands off guy. You go into the studio, you send him cassettes. What did he say?
He said, you know, he liked the direction was going in, but he wanted to it needed at a certain point. What started to show up was when we were mixing, you know, that's when he wanted to add keyboards or at one point we recorded Drunken Angel, he wanted to take one of the verses out because it was too long. Well that was probably because he never explained, you know,
why is it too long? It was probably too long for the radio for airplay, you know, because they had this rule about it can't be longer than whatever it is, you know, two and a half minutes or something. And he wanted me to remove one of the verses, and I said, no. See that's the kind of thing. That's where the rebel thing comes in. But it's not really it'sn't as much a rebel thing as it is an artistic decision. I'm not going to take a verse out of his song because it needs to be in there.
It's part of the story, you know. I don't care if it fits on the radio. Fuck the radio, you know. I mean, so that was me. So he's saying take a verse out. I say no, and you know, he said okay. At least at least I can give him that he didn't force me or anything.
Has anybody ever told you what to do when they were right?
That's a good question too. You're just full of them today, Bob God, I wish I could remember. Yeah, I've guessed. Maybe the good example, as close as example as I can get to that would be like maybe I wanted to do a vocal over on a song and was told, you know, you don't need to do this over again. It's fine, it's great, you're singing your ass off, and it was, you know, and then I would try to sing it over, you know, But then I realized, yeah, they're right, it's done. I don't need to try to
improve it, you know. But the point WHI is and was though that I might maybe I just want to try to do it again just for my own satisfaction, and that would be the difference between people. When I was working at the studio, like when I worked with Charlie Sexton on the Essence album. We were working on my song Blue and I felt like I could have maybe got I could maybe get a better vocal. So I wanted to try to sing it again and he said, well, I don't think you need to, but if you want
to go ahead. That was what I wanted someone to say, not no, you know, just whatever makes you feel comfortable.
Well, I think that's one of the shifts. You know, after the sixties and the seventies, the record contracts where we deliver the album. You have to put it out. Whatever it is. Doesn't mean you have to promote it, but you have to put it out. Whereas today everybody at the label thinks they're an expert, when if you're a true artist, you know, it's a different mentality. So you ultimately put out car wheels on a gravel road, and that really cements your place in the firmament. Yeah,
the record is done. Did you know that was going to happen?
No? I did not know because it was so chaotic getting the record. None that you know. I was insecure. I wasn't sure about this. I wasn't sure about that. I was questioning everything. I just hadn't had a whole lot of experience in the studio making records. This is what you have to remember, you know, So you know, I was still to me, it was just still this amazing process and scary process kind of because whatever goes
down there is permanent, that's it, you know. And however, many thousands of people are going to hear this, and what if I make a mistake and I can't fix it or you know, all these kinds of thoughts are running through my head. That's probably my part of my OCD thing carried over into the studio.
Well, that's why I was asking earlier, you know, whether you could be satisfied or need to redo it all. That's where I was going.
Well, I would have a hard time when it came to my vocal A lot of times, you know, I would think, oh that I had a flat note there. I've got to fix it. You know, the producer or engineer whoever would be saying, no, Lew, it's not flat. It's fine. You just think it's flat. I could I understand why you might think it's flat, but I remember my engineer, Dusty Weakeman, when we're working on car wals.
At one point he said with Sunday. He says, you know the Native American Indians when they would weave a blanket, they would leave a mistake in the blanket on purpose, so it wouldn't be perfect, you know. And he used that as an analogy to try to get me to understand that the idea of imperfection.
Well, there are two things there. I think the imperfections make the records human. And I could talk a number of records the imperfections of what make them great. However, that is classic OCD and is a distorted thought when something is okay but you can't settle down with it.
Yeah. Yeah, I had that problem in the studio.
So car Wheels comes out. What's your experience?
Well, there were a couple of things on't it. I didn't like that. I just spread it over, would listen to and every time I'd just be oh, I hate that. Every time it would go by, and I didn't think it sounded good. And then over time, of course it didn't bother me. But I was completely in awe and shocked when I won that Grammy for Contemporary Best Contemporary Folk Album. I mean, I was completely I was not expecting that at all. That blew me out of the water.
Okay. I was talking to my psychiatrist earlier today and he's older than I am, not a hip guy, and I say, yeah, well today I'm doing this podcast with Louse send to Williams goes, Oh, he knew who you were. So that showed that you permeate the culture. Did you? Did you? Did you start to feel that?
Over time? I started realizing that, you know, something's happening here. You know, people are hearing this record. My name's getting around. You know, the critics loved it. I guess I would have been called the critics darling. Yeah, you know, so I was lucky in that regard.
Okay, you have the success, you win this Grammy. How hard is it to write songs and go to the studio next.
Ooh it was hard Because now I'm thinking about it too much. My mind is running away with me, and I'm thinking, Okay, they loved Carwell's for these reasons. But these particular songs that are all narrative, are the songs that were getting the most attention were narrative songs. Those kinds of songs take a lot of work, or these
particular ones took a lot of work. Songs like Drunken Angel, late Charles Pintiola, you know, about specific people with really interesting stories behind them, and those are the kind of
songs I can just whip up, you know. And a lot of the songs in Rough Trade were written during that down time that I had in silver Lake after I'd gotten a development deal with Sony Records, and I had time to sit in my apartment silver Lake and write songs every day, you know, because I had this development deal they've given me, which meant, you know, I
got to check every month from them. You know, they give you the funds to live on for six months or whatever it is, and so you can buy groceries and pay your rent, and you know, to spend that time writing working on songs, and then you do a demo tape at the end of that period, which I did for them, and you know, then they decide if they're going to give you an actual recording deal or not based on the demo tape that you do when you have that after you get the development deal. I
had done that for Sony Records. This guy Ron Oberman was the A and R guy who pulled me in there, and he was real nice. He was a cool guy. But then they passed on me basically after I did the demo tape. This is when that country in Rock division thing started, because I did that demo tape for Sony in LA, and Sony in LA said it was too country for rock, so they sent it to Sony in Nashville, who said it was too rock for country.
In any event, you didn't get a deal. So how did you feel?
Really disappointed? Because when I first got the development deal, I thought, well, this is a done deal. You know, they're gonna sign me. I'm going to make a record for Sony Records. I'm not going to have to I'm going to be able to quit my day jobs, and this is gonna be great. And I was on Cloud nine and you know, I did the demo tape. Fantastic musicians on that demo tape. Some of the guys from
NRBQ played on it. David Mansfield, the keyboard player from NRBQ, was on it, and some other really good people, and you know, I just thought there was this whirlwind of activity and it felt real positive, and you know then when they decided no, because you know, it's that classic thing where Ron Oberman was. He wanted to do it, but then he had to convince the rest of the label. You know, that's where the business, that's where the numbers guys come in. You know, well, what is this. We're
not sure how to market it? You know, then you become a product like that. They're trying to market and they have these meetings and the men in suits come and they start talking numbers. And that's when I decided no.
Okay, let's jump forward. We got into this story because you're saying songs like Lake Charles, you can't write in a day, but you have to make another album.
Yeah, and I managed to come up with the songs. But even Sweet O'd World. I remember we went in and we cut a bunch of stuff, and I'm you know, I was comparing everything to car Wheels already, and I was terrified. You know, I said, I felt stuck because I felt like, whatever album I make after car Wheels, people are gonna compare it to car wheels. It's they're either gonna say it sounds the same as car wheels, or they're gonna say it's not as good as Car Wheels.
So I felt like I couldn't win for losing, and we cut some stuff for Sweet O'.
World and I think we're at Essence now.
Okay, wait, I'm sorry now the it wasn't Sweet Old World right after Carl Willers.
Sweet Ol'd World was before Car Wheels. Then came Essence. Sweet Old World was after the Rough Trade record.
Oh yeah, that's what I'm thinking that and that was hard.
To Okay, so you had a hard time following up the Rough Trade record? Yeah, tell me about the hard time following up Car Wheels.
Well, it was, you know, similar issue where because Car Wills was so successful, I felt like it was going to everything was going to be compared to it, so the songs had to be as good or better on the next record.
You was talking your book about changing your writing style.
Well, I started. I was working on songs for Essence, and I was coming up with these songs that weren't really lashed out lyrically that much, but the music was really cool, and I thought, you know, is this going to be okay to do? Can I get away with this? Because before that my songs were you know, like I said, a lot of narrative lyrics and you know, it's paying a lot of attention to the lyrics. And I was
still doing that. But what really helped me was at the time Bob Dylan's album Time out of Mind had come out, that Rick Rubin had done, and I listened to it and loved it, and I felt like, this is so musical. It's such a musical album, you know, it's different than most of his other records. And in fact, the Nashville Paper gave it a bad review because they said the lyrics weren't up to Bob Dylan quality, you know.
But the way I felt about it was that he was stretching out a little bit and letting the music talk. You know, I'd always want. I loved the stuff that I loved that I was listening to was talking heads. I loved them because great lyrics, but the music, you know, which supported the lyrics. And I mean, I love good I love rock music, you know, I love beats, I love hip hop. One of my favorite artists is this guy Atmosphere out of Minneapolis, who I just absolutely love.
He's a great writer, he's a great lyricist, and his music is just infectious, you know. It's a similar thing to what Bob Dylan was doing when he first won an electric you know, I love that kind of stuff. I've always been drawn to it. I love Thievery Corporation because they do that, you know, Marching the Hate Machines into the Sun, the song they co wrote with Wayne
Korn from Flaming Lips. So I love that combination of the you know, really interesting, well written lyrics, but infectious you know, hip hoppy rock music behind it.
Okay for someone who got a lite start, had all sorts of issues going from label to label. In the last twenty years, you put on more records than anybody of your stature, so you just hit a groove. What accounts for that?
Well, you know, I signed ended up signing with Lost Highway, and you know, so when you signed with a label, you have a contract. You have to give them so many a certain amount of recordings, you know, that year
or whatever it is. So that was part of it, just the and when I was on Lost Highway, I felt like I'd finally found my family to a large extent, you know, just absolutely adored Rick or not Rick Luke Lewis just loved working with him, you know, he put his money where his mouth was and walk the walk and talk the talk, and you know, he was a musical Ever.
Well, he ultimately, you know, gets pushed aside. The label closes and you continue to make records independently distributed by thirty tigers, so you know it's yeah, you might have ant, but now you have no contract, you're still making the records.
Well, a lot of that I have to owe to my husband, manager Tom, who is always coming up with ideas. He worked at record labels for a number of years. He used to work for Best Buy, and so he has that. He's that capability of he's got the business sense and the creative sense combined. So he's the one. Like one of the things I did were those jukebox you know, the jukebox recordings, an idea that Tom came
up with. Basically, we're, you know, just in between record albums, and I was talking about sons I loved by other people, and he said, well, why don't we go in and record some of those? So we would. He would say, you know, pick your favorite Bob del songs, whoever it
might be, Tom Petty, and we go in. We went in and worked him up with the band and recorded on them and we ended up getting a couple of filmmaker guys photographers to come in and document it in the studio and you know, people saw it and heard it and loved it. And then Tom got the idea to you know, put it on make it available online.
They could downstream it or whatever it's called, you know, and we jumped on that wagon, you know, that bandwagon, the social media thing with it, and you know, it took off and you know, so that was an idea that Tom had come up with to fill the gap in between records.
Well does he ever come up with an idea and you say, no, not going to do that?
Sometimes yeah, you know, then we talk about it and.
So when in this equation do you start making any money?
Huh that's a good question too. Uh. I remember telling Tom at one point recently, like when am I going to start seeing the results of the fruits of my labor? You know, like you hear about you know, all these rock bands who get famous and they have all these cars and multiple houses and all this stuff, and you know, it's not like that because you know, you have to pay taxes first of all, which is true for every American. But the more money you make, the more taxes you
have to pay. So I mean you still have to watch your spending and all of that. It's just on a different level. I guess.
Well, do you ever go I'm wear and say too expensive, not going to pay?
Tom will say that sometimes, but usually once if we go to the trouble you mean, like a nice restaurant or something.
So that could be a good example.
Yoh, yeah, we won't go. If he thinks it's going to be too expensive, then we just go somewhere else, you know. And I would give him a hard time anyway, if he would know better than to say that.
And do you have any personal extravagance something you do or something you own or somewhere you go?
Hmmm, probably like what you were talking about before. I like to shop on line. I love buying. I probably shouldn't go into office supply stores. I love buying. I go crazy when I see blank, fresh new notebooks and pads of paper and pens. I just want to buy them all, you know.
So let's go sideways for a minute here. You are a woman in a male dominated business. What's that been like?
It sucks? Basically, I mean you know, sometimes I have to remind myself how many that there aren't women? You know, we don't. The majority of engineers are men, majority of producers are men. Men run all the record labels. I mean, I don't know. I have a label run by a woman. So you know, there's that majority of musicians are men. You know, I love seeing a woman playing drums. I love seeing a woman playing an instrument generally reserved for men.
There's something really sexy and cool about that, you know, a woman playing bass or drums.
And how any me too moments?
Huh?
Any sexual harassments.
I haven't had anything like that, thank god, Just you know, comments like when I was first starting out, guys would say stuff like, you're pretty good for a girl, you know, or worse yet, they would say, you're pretty good for chick. I hated that word back then because that was effeminist. I like to think of myself as a feminist, so you know, that was not cool back in the day to call women chicks.
Although I will say I have two sisters. Starting somewhere in the eighties or nineties, they started to use the word chick. Yeah, it's almost like black people using the N word.
Yeah.
And you know, it's a funny thing because I come from a female dominated family. You can get caught up in a conversation and saying jokingly, and there are certain people saying, say, oh, you can't say that.
Yeah, I know. Yeah, we can call each other chick and bitch and whatever else we want to call each other. You know, I know what you mean.
Yeah, So how about in business, Like you go for a meeting and they you feel if you were a guy in a meeting or in a studio, it would go down differently.
Well, you know, I just my head just doesn't go in that direction. I don't think in those terms of like you know, all men do this or all women are like this. So, you know, I just think I would think more in terms of the actual person, Like if so and so was in here right now, like Steve Earle, who is just like you know, when he says something, that's it. You know, he's just got one of those personalities, you know, And I'm just not like that.
I'm more kind of you know, shy, or I kind of retreat back, you know, like it's harder for me to be aggressive or assertive as opposed to like so if I was in the studio. I might say I wish Steve was in here with me right now because he could explain what I mean to them, and part of it would be just trying to describe and explain what I wanted to the sound I wanted to get or something like that, you know, to the engineer and the producer like that would be hard sometimes.
So tell us about the stroke.
Yeah, that was a surprise and a shock if there ever was one. I was. It was a normal, regular day. I was in the bathroom getting ready to take a shower at our house in Nashville, and I just felt really exhausted all of a sudden, like to the point where all I want to do is lay down. I didn't care where I was. I just wanted to and it was this overwhelming need to lay down, and I just felt kind of weak. My legs just felt real weak underneath me, and I remember I didn't fall down.
I saw some towels and I grabbed them and laid down on the floor in the bathroom for a minute. I just thought, I'm just gonna lay down for a minute before I get in the shower, because I don't want to fall down to the shower, so I just laid down on the floor and then Tom, my husband, Tom, at some point saw me in there and he figured something was He didn't know if I'd fallen or what
had happened, but he knew something was off. So he ended up on the phone with our doctor, our primary care physician in Nashville, described what was going under her. She told her to call an ambulance and they came, and you know, we didn't know it was a stroke right away until I got to the hospital, and then
they said that that was what had happened. I was in the hospital for a couple of weeks, and then they at a certain point I started doing rehab in the hospital because they had a rehab division section there with physical therapists, so they got me into that very quickly, which I think really helped made a big difference. So I did some rehab in the hospital, and then I came home and then I had caregivers come to the house and helped me, and I had physical theorists come
to the house and worked with them. So I was doing a lot of outpatient physical therapy and starting to get a little at least be able to walk across the room without falling down because I couldn't walk it first, and then I rollized I couldn't play guitar, which has been my main big obstacle. So that's what I'm working on now, is trying to get back to that.
So you had some level of paralysis. Where are you at now physically?
Well, I don't know if it was paralysis, you mean not being able to walk.
Well, whatever it is, you know better than I do.
Uh.
You know what ended up? You have the stroke. Let's start from the beginning, purely out of the blue or was this something genetic and they say it was going to happen?
No, it was out of the blue, you know.
Okay, So what were the effects of the stroke?
Okay? The stroke? Basically, you know, I didn't even know what a stroke was. But it's when you have a blood thought on one side of your brain, and you know, basically your brain is confused. So that means your body is confused because your brain tells your body what to do. So you have to retrain your brain. Basically, you know, your brain tells your legs what to do when you walk.
You know, you don't think about that consciously because you're so used to walking, you just you don't think about it. But you know, when you after you have a stroke, all of a sudden, you have to think about what you're doing all the time. And it also what's interesting is like my blood clot was on the right side of my brain, so the whole, entire less side of my body was affected. And you know, you just have to relearn everything. I had to learn how to walk again,
which I'm still working on. I still don't walk like I used to, you know.
So if we take a snapshot today, what's your state today.
I think I'm doing really well. People who've known me since the beginning can see the progress. I mean, I'm lifting weights in the studio with the trainers, so you know, because I just refuse to. I don't want to get out of shape and weak and all that. I was in a wheelchair for part of that time, and we
still do that. Like if we have to go to the airport to catch a flight, they'll have a wheelchair there to roll me through the airport because it's it's too hard for me to walk through and it takes too long.
And what's the status of playing guitar.
Right now? I'm not playing, so I've been performing without guitar, was just my band backing me up. But the hardest part is when I go in the studio to record, because that's how I started. At a certain point, I realize the best way for me to record with the band was for them to follow me, you know, for me to play the guitar, and they get the vibe
and the tempo and everything for me. And since I can't play, I have to rely on someone else to play rhythm, and that makes it a lot more difficult to record songs because nobody's gonna play like I do, you know. So that's the best way for me to record is for me to play. In the very beginning, somebody else would grab the guitar and sit and play.
I never would even play. And then at some point someone in the studio, it might have been Steve Girls suggested and said, Lou, you need to play guitar and sing the song and then let everybody else follow you. And that proved to be the best way for me to record my stuff.
And do you anticipate being able to play the guitar again?
Yeah? I mean I have to say yes, because I just refuse to give up.
Okay, we're the same age, and hitting sixty was rough. Hitting seventy was rough in a different way. You've accomplished all this. You have all these albums, you have all this acclaim. Even if you did nothing again, you have a good legacy. But what do you want to accomplish other than the physical things which we've just changed. What do you want and what do you need for the time that's left.
I would just say just keep writing songs and keep getting better. I feel like I can still there's always room to improve, you.
Know, Okay, when I turn sixty. It's like you know the trick. You see advertising and you go if I you know, if this is good, I'll hear about it. Whereas you're a kid, you see something advertised with cartoons, you go, I want that. Then seventy he realized, well I'm not going to be here forever, and your perspective changes. In addition, we live in this era. You know, you and me grew up in the area. It turned on the radio, everybody knew those songs. Now there's almost no
regular frame of reference. So do you just put your head down and say this is what I'm doing, or does it affect you how things have changed both because of age and the landscape.
Yeah, it affects me just like it affects you and everybody else, especially people our age, you know, and it buns me out a lot of times. You're talking about like what you you mean, what you were talking about before about there aren't any rebels left and that sort of thing. Oh yeah, Yeah, it definitely affects me. But I see some though still, you know, there are you know, I keep on top of what's going on, and I listen. I love to listen to new artists. You know. I'll
hear about somebody. Somebody will say, you need to hear this guy's really good. And I go out of my way to listen to people, you know, who are just
getting started. And you know, I get excited when I hear somebody I think it's really good, and you know, I'll go out and support them and talk with them and everything, and listen to their music at home, and you know, give them advice maybe sometimes if they ask for it, you know, just give them support, you know, because I remember what it's like when I first started, you know. So there was a girl who in Nashville, who's her name is Alicia Blue, which is a great
stage name, but it's actually her real name. And she's quite good. She's a really good lyricist, really good songs she did, She recorded and did a video of her singing this song. Jane says that Jane's Addiction did and it's really it's really good. She just played it for me recently. And so you know, there are I mean,
there are younger artists. I think, who are I haven't enough of that rebellion in them, you know, but the business has changed somewhat too, so you have to look at that, and I get more frustrated, I guess when I probably more about the business into things than the artists actually, or the lack thereof, because a lot of times I'll see and hear an artists I think is really really good and wonder why he or she doesn't get the attention they deserve, or you know, why he
or she hasn't gotten record deal yet, and you know, people aren't paying attention to them like they should be, And that probably frustrates me as much as anything.
Well, the other thing that frustrates me is people our age. We are half dead. I mean, you're very alive. You're staying up on things you have opinions. Then there are other people. I know, well I'm old, I'm retired, I'm you know, just into lifestyle. They're very weird.
Yeah, they just start thinking old. They're old because they think they're old.
You know, well you're certainly young, Lucinda. I want to think, thank you for taking the time with my audience.
Well, you're more than welcome. I've enjoyed this conversation.
Great. Hopefully I asked some questions. We went some places that were not we normally go.
Yeah, we did.
That's okay, No, that's what I want people who have been interviewed, you know, you try and ask to ask the same questions because then their eyes roll in the back.
Of the Yeah. Yeah, but I mean I like that you asked different questions. I wasn't expecting a lot of them. But that's okay, Okay, you're a rebel.
Oh you have no idea. I am that person. You know what I used to say in the old days was I believed in this wave theory. So in the fifties the waves came in, everybody was a beat. Nick the wave went out and we had Manor G. Krebs On Sure he was left on shore then the sixties we had uh what's his name, uh Ginsburg, the poet he was left on shore.
Yeah.
I never wore a leisure suit. I never did anything. I stayed true to who I was.
Yeah.
But even worse now today people don't even remember the way it was. You know, I feel like Grandpa saying, well, back in the sixties, back in the seventies, Yeah, when people had values and they would say no, you know, you talk about being an artist whatever. Everybody say, Oh, I can make money, I can get fame. Yes, drives me crazy.
Yeah. Is there you think there's still that that that still happens.
I mean, okay, you're a middle class person. Your father was a college professor. We are the same age. We didn't grow up in the same part of the country. But when I went to high school, regular public high school, there were kids who were middle class and they were the art kids. They were separate from the cool, separate from the jock, etc. Etc. And those people became the artists. An equal story is Jefferson Airplane. You know, if you're a middle class person, you say no. Bill Graham was
the manager for while. He said, whenever they had any success, they didn't want to work. They want to stay home and smoke dope. It's like, you know, they had a feel for it. They wouldn't do anything for money, whereas today, Yeah, if you people won't do anything for money, they'll play with dictators, they'll work.
You know.
It's like you're saying, you're not cutting the verse from the song. Well, we grew up in the era where the people who are performing wrote the songs and although there are some there are some great intro.
That was a sorry to interrupt, but that is probably the biggest change I think over the you know, over the years has been going from artist recording who didn't write, to artists recording who wrote their own songs.
I think this is huge, you I think I was talking to somebody the other day and I say, look at the frame of reference. When Mariah Carey came in the nineties, that was pop. We hadn't had pop like that since the sixties. But today everybody was brought up on that and they think, you know, like what you see on TV shows with competition shows, where for us,
no way. The other thing is there are people our age who get plastic surgery and they go on stage and play the old hits to people who look old, but they you know, it's like, you know, if somebody wants to go, fine, but it creeps me out. It's like, yeah, especially as I've seen these acts so many times, Like, you know, unless you're my friend, whatever, I'm not gonna go. I remember when.
Yeah, well that's just boring.
I mean, but a lot of people are disheartened. I mean, your success came a little later in age, but you're continuing to work. There's certain you know, that comes down to whether you're an artist, and a lot of people can't.
They can't. That's I'm an artist first and foremost. You know, I live, eat, and breathe and sleep with my art. You know, that's the thing. At the risk of sounding idealistic, you know, but it's true though.
Well you know, an artist can say no and won't compromise. I mean, you might say, well, I'll cut my set short ten minutes, but I'm not you know, strings on this track.
No, Yeah, because everything is made from an artistic perspective, you know, So is it gonna help the song or is it not? It's that simple, you know.
Another element and I've had personal experience with this, the audience knows. Everybody was. I was on a percentage phrase. Oh do the commercial do the ads? No one cares about that. Oh there's not that's not true.
They do. Yeah, they pay attention to everything. And that's the other thing is a lot of artists and performers underestimate their audience. I think, you know, well, give me a little deeper. Well, I mean, I just think, what kind of I what you were saying. You might not think they care if you take this verse out of a song or something, but they pay attention to the versus. You know, I have the best fans ever, I think in the whole world, because they're loyal. I mean, they're patient.
You know, they stick with me if I make a mistake when I'm performing, They're still there at the end of the night. You know, they don't leave. You know, they listen to what I'm saying. They pay attention to the lyrics and the songs, and they remember my songs and they love them and they love me. I feel like there's a real family thing there between my fans and me.
Well that's what it's all about today. Because the machine doesn't exist like terrestrial radio, I don't know anybody listens to terrestrial radio. You know, it's like it's all everybody that's talking to my shrink about this earlier today everybody their own thing. Now it's like you make your own breaks. Nobody is world dominant. Like for all this hype about Taylor Swift, I mean, we remember when everybody knew every word to every song because it was on the radio
and we all listen to the radio. Whereas today you go around, most people can even name a Taylor Swift song. It's not not making it about her because she's really big, bad bunny. There's a couple of these people. They are The Stones went on tour in seventy two. It was like, you know, it's like the second Coming. Everybody can rage, can sing satisfaction, jumping Jackflash, we know that shit. Yeah, Okay, Lousen, I'm gonna go till next time. This is Bob Left Sets