Lee Abrams

what's the future of radio in today's world? Well, I think it's, um, it's gonna be just a big pie that's split up between satellites and streaming and whatever other technology comes along. Excuse me. I think the problem with the restrial radio is they're stuck uh in the nineteen eighties. I mean, it's just insane and to me, it's unlistenable. And I think unless they go through some radical transformation uh in their programming, um, they're gonna be a pretty

small part of the pie over time. Okay. So if you were in charge, what would you change? Well, i'd, uh, first of all, explore a whole variety of new formats. Some of the formats that around the year today were created decades ago and may have been valid then, but really haven't aren't that valid now? You're seeing even some stations.

There's one in Chicago, and there's some other emerging stations that aren't taking some risks and uh playing a wide range of music within their format rather than the hundred

and fifty tested songs and getting great results. And I can see any album rock world, I mean getting back to what it was all about in the first place, UH, which was you know, expansive, taking the major artists and opening them up like when was the last time you heard low Spark of High Heeled Boys or Hurricane or just so many travels going through a list uh from the mid seventies just for fun, and I'd say about a fifteenth of the songs that were on there that

were very popular get played today. And I think they need to go into creative overdrive as far as what happens between the records. With all of the competition that's out there today, it's amazing that they're creatively on autopilot. You still hear two for Tuesdays and block party weekends and things that were Coolber October and fifty years ago. Awesome, But I mean, come on, and even the names of

the channels, you know, Fresh, they sound like detergents. Um. So I think it really when they started calling a big variety, this is Is there any positive connotation to variety? It's ridiculous. Yeah, there's I think an FCC law that says you have to be when you launch the States, you have to be the new and most variety from

the seventies, eighties and nineties or something goofy like that. Um, but I think, um, unless you're making a lot of money doing what you're doing, this station will need to blow it up and UH bring some inventive people in there and realize that it's uh in almost two thousand twentiess not one anymore. And I think a lot of them are relying on research that I think is uh generally invalid. I recalled times that we UH in a single market, did three research projects from different companies and

they were all completely different. So and if the research was so accurate, we wouldn't be they wouldn't be in the situation here and now, which just uh. They don't have fans, they have users. When was the last time you saw a bumper radio bumper sticker in a car? Well, I just remember, you know, kalo s here be used to be in the seventies and eighties, there'll be a competition where in Los Angeles, of course, between the stations, and they would give out bumper stickers and you would

know when the show was in town. Not only do we don't have those bumper stickers, were not clued in. It wasn't that. It's not longer the culture the way it used to be. Know, and you listen to the stations, there's no connection with the concert events. I saw you know e l Oh recently a couple of weeks ago, and uh no station presence, and nobody talked about it

on the air a couple of weeks in front. And when a new record comes out, even by an established artist, chances are, at least in the rock area, it doesn't get played or it doesn't get highlighted. I mean, you know, Springsteen sting Yes have come out with the new records then maybe not be as magical as their original ones, but I think you owe it to at least give it a spin and talk about it and inform the

listeners about it. And that doesn't happen anymore. They've taken their eye off the music ball, the creative ball, all the balls. Let's start from the beginning. Sure, of course, when there was only terrestrial radio. We were locked in. Especially in smaller markets, there weren't that many opportunities. But today, the younger generation lives in an on demand culture. I always say people say, kids today have you know, a short attention span. I don't leave that. They just have

an incredible ship detector. They click until they find something they want and then they might stay on that forever or click again. You know, every year somebody dies in Asia from playing video games three days straight. So with inherently advertising on terrestrial radio, will the younger generations, millennials and gen Z who never grew up with good radio, would they listen to this kind of radio? No? I

doubt it. I think, Uh, the smart broadcasters again, if they're not doing really well, uh what they have should focus forty plus where the natural audiences. I remember when we first started XM, we're talking to people. A lot of people said that, oh it's gonna be the kids that are really into satellites and all that, And we talked to younger people and the general responses, you know, hey, radio sucks. What do I want? You know, a hundred channels of what sucks? You know. I talked to somebody uh,

you know forty and up. And they were like, oh my god, you mean a station that would bring back the magic of any WFM that I grew up with, or uh, you know WSM and Nashville if fair country fan and I said yeah, and I said, oh my, sign me up. Okay. So in today's radio market, there's Top forty, which is basically pop and hip hop, mainly hip hop, and there's certainly so R and B stations which are basically hip hop hip hop, and there are

some adult contemporary stations. But the the alternative stations, the rock stations, the NPR stations, what they play almost never crosses over, right, I know. That's uh, that's an interesting observation. It's it used to be where the those formats fed Top forty exactly. And so is this the problem with Top forty or is it problem with rock? No. I think it's a problem with rock because they're not exposing a lot of the new uh and interesting material that

could cross over. Um. Yeah, I think it's rocks problem because I think a lot of these younger skewing stations, if they these songs got played just like they did in the old days, Uh, they'd see it in their their research and their phones, and they'd probably added. But so you're saying that if we played rock on top forty, it would ViRGE in. It's just a matter of exposure. Yeah, and again selective the right songs, but absolutely um okay. But many people will say rock is dead. Where is

what's your view point on that? Well, I think it's on life support. Um. I think rock as rock as a genre is very much alive, but it's all based on the old stuff. The Lords. You go to an Eagles concert and you know, there's a million people there, uh, but they're really you know, reliving their path, which is fine. And uh that's why I see all these you know, great concert attendance for these bands, and not much in

the record sales department. So I think rock is alive in a well, it's just there's not a lot of new, interesting, experimental type stuff coming out. Now. You're a person who's famously literally been involved with these bands like yes, yes, So if you were going to give direction to young rock acts today, what would you say, Well, it depends on the band. In the case of yes, no, no, no no, I'm talking about younger acts. Forget these legendary acts that's

a whole separate topic. But if it was someone you know, where the players don't have a history, they're starting out, whether they're you know, eighteen to thirty five, so to speak. Players. Yeah, I don't think you can understand the future until you

understand the past. So I would get them just immersed in some of these classic records to where they really learned the spirit and soul behind them, and uh in the musicianship and the quality of the musicianship and the production and the cleverness that a lot of these most of these records had. Uh. So I would immerse them in that and see what they come up with. And then what records would you recommend? Oh my god, it's quite a long list. Every think from the Dark Side

of the Moon. They s album that mentioned favorites. Um, I would even go back to you know, Harvest, Neil Young certainly, particularly the late Arab Beatles stuff, Um some Rush, Um you can tell my my favorites, the Genesis, Crosby Stills and Nash Okay. So what was so magical about those acts? Well, I think um they had they balanced melody, amazing melodies, just memorable melodies with incredible musicianship and fantastic production,

and the arrangements were just clever. You don't see the clever arrangements anymore as much anymore, um and I think they they're sort of experimental. Everybody was trying to outdo themselves. I remember in the late sixties everybody was trying to out use an arms race in in amplification and technology. And one band would have the sized marshal and excellent there one band would have as face shifters and and so there was this desire to be new and different

and to push it. And I think you heard those and all those records. They evolved. But when I asked whether it was the time, the were just a year a part in age. So we came of age. Let's call it with the Beatles. Okay. Now, in the sixties, radio was the tribal drum. If you want to know what was going on, first was AM, then it was FM. You wanted to know what's going you literally listen to the radio station. But ultimately in the eighties moved more to video and it certainly blew up backs into in

a way that made them worldwide uh uh superstars. But was it a moment in time that can't be replicated. I think it can. I think the whole culture and that spirit will never be the same. It won't be seven again. But I think we're in a similar politics going cultural situation now that is makes it ripe for for this. I mean, there's practically civil war on the streets, you know, the uh. I'd like to say that information is the new rock and roll. There's so much going on.

I've never heard it put that way expand that yes, okay, back back in the day, um rock and rolls would drove culture. It was just what everybody what what it uh determined what people look like, you know, how they talked, hey boss man, and how the you know, how they acted. It was just the drumbeat of an era. And now I think it's more information instead of the walkman or stereo.

We've got our devices, instead of the water cooler talking about who's better Jeff Becker, Eric Clapton, there's discussion on you know, Trump and is it gonna be Biden. Um, there's uh um certain swagger that the artists had that you don't see anymore. Now. It's the politicians and the you know, they seem to have the swagger. So I think it's just a um it's where what was driving culture? You know, it was rock and roll and now it's

more information. Okay, let's not because I I used put it in a slightly different way, and I wonder if it's the same Rock drove of the culture. Certainly from nineteen sixty four to the late seventies got a reinjection as a result of MTV. Then starting around or so, we had twenty years were tech drove the culture. You were constantly people first had to get computers to play on a O L. Then of course we have the web. There was always a new app, there are all these things.

Now it's solidified. We have what are called the fang stocks. They control everything, you know, Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google, uh and certainly Microsoft to agreed. Now, So I was saying that politics drive the culture. But is that too narrow? Yeah? Uh, I think it's a big, huge part of it. But I think, um, information as a whole, even even just surfing the web and finding out things that and statistics that people never even cared about years ago is another

component I could say. And I you know, I've I lost many years to the web, and I'm still losing because you get on there, it's just amazing stuff. It's all there. It's incredible even to this day. Everything And so I think that's a big part of it, just the access to all this information. And uh, but let's stay right there, because one thing I know is, starting

about five years ago, we had to internet cacophony. I mean I was there very early on the web because I had a free subscription to a O well when you're paid by the minute with Warner Brothers Records now called Warner Records. Interestingly, but as I say, we lived through these things. Now it is almost impossible to reach people. They're bombarded with messages. How would you reach people, whether it be information, music or what. Yeah, I think, um,

the shock factor, it's got to be shockingly different. It's sort of like family Guy is shockingly different. Um. I think, um, even the Tool Record sort of shockingly different. I'm a huge fan of the Tool Record. I love it more, I listen more, just get into it. That's experimental. They're pushing boundaries. Um. But you know, of course Howard isn't the shock jock anymore, but still, you know, he has a bit of a shock factor going. So I think, um,

in movies. You know, the shocking movies cut through, So I think you have to be Is that why The Joker is successful? Not that I've seen it, but just reading about it, Yeah, I think so, it's just shockingly I haven't seen you know, they say it's like taxi driver on steroids. But going back, so we live in an era where you kill somebody in the morning, it's news to about four o'clock if you're lucky. So is shock inherent in what you're doing? Or do you have

to plan it? Oh? No, I think you have to plan. It has to be in in your DNA to be you know, shocking. And that doesn't mean evil or anything. It means just like, wow, the fun shocking. Okay, So let's just assume you have something shocking in the first decade of this century, people would find it. Today, you can be great and people won't find you. That's true. I think you just gotta go where your target is, and it's on the Internet's on Facebook, just blanketed and uh,

you know, it's a marketing question. I think it's different for every product. But I think you just gotta go where your target audience is and uh, let him know about it. And slap him over the head with it and hope that the you know, buzz is enough to cut through. Okay, wouldn't you say? And I granted it was a smaller world in many ways, but in the late sixties, certainly in the very early seventies, no marketing

was necessary. No, it was all self marketing. Uh, come out with a great record, and uh it takes care of itself. I mean there was some that, you know, flipping between the cracks. I can't think of any offhand, but generally, yeah, you come up with a record. That's the power of rock and roll as a culture. People were talking about it. And you hear that new band called Spirit. Oh man, you know, really, I'm gonna go

buy that? And uh so there was a Well, since you've been on the creative end, this may be a little bit out of your purview, but if you were advising an act today, do they need an album? Do they want an album as opposed to singles or singles on a regular basis? You know, I think they do? And um to really explore and to uh, I mean we're talking about not somebody's after the quick, quick hit,

but the band that wants to establish themselves. Yeah, I think absolutely, Uh creates something that's a statement and you know the thing that will flow from that. But then you've got to get out of this mind set of you know, three minute disposable songs based on fashion and look and uh, what's what's hot? This what this week's flavor is and get back to where artists are making real statements. Uh. And again that's one of the things I like about Tool. You listen to the whole thing,

it's it's really a statement, right. But you know the other thing is talking about young pop and hip hop acts. First thing they'll say, is there a brand and the music that not only will they play privates will have a perfume line, a clothing line. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Um? No, I think it's just reality. Uh. I think personally, Uh, great artists don't need that. You know, they can rely on the music and what that does to people. But they might say

they can only make a limited amount of money. Yeah. True, Um, but I think the the headphones lines and the cologn and it's just part of the there's a distraction. Okay, So just being very specific back in the air, we're talking about sixties nearly seventies. Literally the acts were God and what they said frequently in print and Rolling Stone we really paid attention to. So does all this, you know, what's in the number, all the you know extras other

than the music, Does that hurt credibility? I think so? Yeah. Here it's musical credibility. It's probably uh has its commercial upsides and uh can help the bottom line for the brand, but musically it does nothing. And uh, okay, So let's go back here we're talking about radio formats. Do you believe if Top forty radio broadened its playlist it would become more popular? Uh, that would have more listeners? Yeah, I think it would. Um, but I think again, it's

not their fault that nobody's feeding him. What do you mean nobody's feeding well, you know, the rock stations aren't giving him great songs to play, and and the country stations a little bit, but mainly the rock and alternative stations aren't, you know, creating the hits that it would appeal to a mass appeal station like a Top forty. Okay, let's go to streaming. Now. All these streaming sites Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Deezer, Title,

they're inundated with playlists. If you were chief programming director at one of these streaming services, what would you do? Um Well, it's funny because I did a whole thing on that. First of all, I get into news and information to um, well, it would be very specific because of course Spotify is a standalone company. Stock has been up and now it's down, and they went into podcasts, So if they went into information, what would it look like?

It would be, um, a wide range of different information information genres from international to local, to food to so a whole bunch of different choices, but all uh, talk driven and um so you're talking about essentially radio stations. Yeah, information on all those topics. Just to be clear, because on Apple they have Beats one Radio Zane Low and they have other famous DJs. Uh, that is not something I listened to because that's not how I listen to

radio anymore. I like. I mean, you know, satellite, you have a hundred odds stations. You have so many options on the streaming service. You can go what you want if you're going to have these stations. Because one thing about talk talk is in the moment. It's not something that can be pre programmed. Etcetera. Do you believe people would listen to those stations if they were purely information no music, Yes, I do, and it might be an older audience. And uh, but I think that's part of

the completeness they need. And i'd also i'd have radio channels on there, you know, for people who don't just want to vege and listen to a great um aggregator. Well, then let's go to Spotify specifically, No tune in has varying radio channels, but a lot of these good, right, Okay, Uh, but that's that was gonna be my question if you go on all of these. Uh, certainly Spotify the Big Cahuna has a Pandora like feature where you put in a track and it will generate a station for you.

What is that good batter? Otherwise? Oh, I think it's just part of it, you know, part of the mix. That's that's probably good. But I'm thinking great, uh radio stations that are against super targeted and have amazing production, theater of the mind and just take people places. Let's go. John Marks was on x M. He's a country programmer and now he went to Spotify a couple of years back, and one could say he's got the best choices in

country music. And you can go through a couple of his play Let's say this is what he's listening to. Are you saying that if he went back to being a DJ, that would be a great edition. Yeah, it might not be the same format. It might be more production heavy where there's magic between the songs. Uh, in form of you know, interstitials and uh yeah, and he talked and uh uh present a passionate viewpoint of why he picked the music. Okay, so why do production and interstitials,

etcetera hook the listener? Uh? Theater of the mind. It's just magic if done right, which it isn't lately, but uh in the golden days, and I think it's still valid. It just transports you. It takes something from you utility to to magic. And I'm not talking about promos you know, listen now and win um, but just really beautiful little segways that are in full stereo and are just cinematic and elevate the whole experience to uh to a higher level.

Do you think that you know, if let's say one of these outlets was going to do this, how many music stations would they need? I would say, Um, you know, ideally probably about a hundred. Okay, So like satellite radio, okay, after but that you know, satellite radio, which people pay for, uh, is very labor intensive. So if a streaming service was to hire these people cost a lot of money. Well, um, you know, but when I was at U at XM, some of the better channels had one person. Remember our

Top Tracks channel had one one guy. Our sixties channel two DJs and one of them was a program director. And I remember it was a channel of fine tuning, which was pretty adventurous that had just one guy. So I think it's if you rethink it, it's doable. Okay. So let's just we have these streaming service. Let's say we have these information channels, we have these music channels. What's your view on playlists which these outlets are inundated with.

I think they're valuable. Um uh, just again another component of what these find it overwhelming. You know the Spotify Top fifty which is basically hip hop and pop. Yeah, listen to that. You listen to the electronicals? How many tracks can you listen to? You? Right? That's why I like the radio station thing it uh, you know, you get the very focused channels and really just you know, if you want progressive rocky, go to that progressive rock channel and you get you know, magic between the songs.

Somebody really intelligent talking about it. U uh. You can even have you know, live broadcasts, recorded broadcasts of concerts, and it's instead of spending so much time with playlists, you can just go to the source and it could be expertly programmed. And okay, let's go back to the source. Speaking for you, where were you born Chicago? And what'd your father do for a living? It was an obstetrician, okay. And did your mother work outside the home? Your father

delivered babies too. You're the older, the younger, I'm the younger. You're the younger. What's the how much older? The older? Five years? So what's he up to? He is a industrial designer out in Connecticut. Really, so your father, if you're an obstetrician, you might get a call any day, any time and they have to run out. Yes, three in the morning was not unusual. Okay. So was your father a big presence in your life? Yeah, he was.

I was always into radio and music going way back, and he is from the uh, the generation where music you know, that's that's not a good good business. Uh. And radio, well, nobody listens to radio anymore ever since Jack Benny went to television. So it wasn't particularly supportive, but it was about your mother, very supportive. She used to take me down when I was six seven eight years old down the radio stations downtown to watch the DJs. Really now, could you would they let you in or

just since you were so young? And okay, so when did you start listening to radio? It was, well, it was always on in the house, but I really started What kind of radio was on in the house? Uh? Beautiful music? Okay, because one thing I certainly remember my father was into beautiful music in the car. But they used to play a lot of show tunes. Show tones is big too. But I remember it was December. Line was my first. It was w LS What happened on

December eleventh, inteen sixty two. That's when I first really got into radio. Okay, let's slow down a little bit. In that early part of the sixties, most people had transistors. Did you have a transistor radio at that point in time? We got this for Christmas and my parents didn't want it, and they put it in my room, and that's so cool. And so what did they put in your room? The radio? What kind of radio was it? It was an admiral so it was like one speaker, how big one speaker

and size of a shoebox? And what how old were you when they put that in your room? That was ted. I was always into into radio and music. We had a juke box at our house. But we had a juke box at your house. Well, my uncle, who I never really knew that well, owned cash Box. Cash Box, the legendary trade magazine. Now on a business it was cash book, cash Box and Billboard. And then along came record World. But he owned a cash Boody owned cash Box and uh did he own it when it went down? No,

he owned it. I think the mob blotted from Uh he owned it in the fifties. And did he do well selling it? I think so because he lived in a fancy high rise in downtown Chicago. Okay. And this was what your father's brother, your mother's brother, mother's uh sisters brother okay, me and your her husband right. So yes, at that time, people don't forget, you know, cash box literally was the bible not only of records, but have

jukeboxes and other vending things. Okay, So he gave us a jukebox which he had, and I used to send over records and I remember listening to the records that came in. He just would send a care package, and so I was listening to records. And this was before you had your radio, and you personally would change the records in the jukebox. Yeah, how did you do that? Just it was unlocked and it didn't take the coin box was disconnected. I just opened it up and put

the records in there. I remember the first record, uh six we had sixteen tons We had in the Middle of an Island by Tony Bennett, which I really liked. And just all these sixties and how much we do listen to the jokebox a lot. I'd go down there and just listen to right. Yeah, we had a pinball machine from like nineteen o nine. We used to be down there. He gave us one of those two. But remember what the what what was the theme of that?

It was a beach theme with all these sort of bikini girls on it, and it was a Gottlieb and that's all I remember. I remember. We had Lady Luck. Okay, and it was a Gottlie ball. So so you get this radio, it's in your room. What happens on December eleven? In December eleventh, I'm tuning around and I hit w LS, which of course is a clear channel station in Chicago. Yes, powerful, and it's once again, what's where do you live in

Chicago at the time. We live a place called Flosphore, which was about twenty miles south of year But didn't okay, I remember being in Chicago usually the wealthier suburbs or north, Yes, So why did you live in the south? This was kind of inro It's pretty wealthy at the time, and it was just surrounded by non wealth I don't know

how it happened. Oh, I know how it happened. It was the place where Illinois Central Railroads executives lived because there were all these golf courses around, and it grew from that into this, uh sort of little executive retreat is known for its at five golf courses. And again it was surrounded by rough neighborhoods, but it was this little oasis. And do your father play golf? Yeah he did. Did you tried it and got piste off at it? Okay? So and you're in school now you're dedicated to music.

Are you a kid who has friends? Yeah, lots of friends. You're a popular kid. I was always kind of, you know, a little eccentric, but uh, and I think people like that about me. And then just going forward in high school, good student, bad student. I was so immersed in music and radio. I was a terrible student. We ditch and go downtown and buy records and again go to w l s and w CFL had um windows where you could watch the DJs. We go down and do that.

And uh, I made appointments with all the gm s and pds and met them back when I was in high school, and usually that what would happen during school days? And what was your pitch? What was your agenda? Ideas? I got some ideas. Okay, you wanted to pitch um ideas? Yeah, and I wasn't thinking money or anything, but yeah, it's far as to talk to and meet him. And uh, well let's go back. You got the radio room. What

happens on December level? Okamber ten um, turn it on w LS and it's like nothing I ever heard in my life. It was magical and it's funny. I remember when the Jingles would come on, I actually thought that the were singers live in the studio, and how do they get it right every time? And that's where I really got into theater of the mind, the production and the personality and guys like Dick BEYONDI back then, and it was I get chills thinking about it. It was

just magic. And that's when I just became completely addicted. And I remember we were talking earlier. My dad would get up at three in the morning to deliver babies. Um, that would be my signal to check out the all night show called The East of Midnight with Clark Webber and UM, so you know, listen to all night radio. And then eventually I discovered, just to be clear, you never listened to w LS before that? Okay, No, I was, uh and they had only go into rock two years earlier.

Were you a guy who listened to the baseball on the radio before w CFL. I was a big White Sox fan, and uh also radios to explain it, because the Cubs were terrible? What made somebody a White Sox fan as opposed to a Cubs fan? Uh? Background, it's usually a family thing. You know, your parents were into the White Sox. The Cubs were awful, run by Wrigley who was a Nazi, and it was terrible, and you know, don't I could never support the Cubs. There's a reason

they lose every year. And uh and it took me to White Sox games early, and you know, kind of got into the whole vibe of COMMISSI. Okay, so now you're listening to w LS. You know, you have this amazing moment. At that time, were there any other top forty stations in Chicago? There was one with a very bad signal at ninety called w y n R for just for a minute, but their signals so bad I could barely hear it in my house and they lasted

about a year or so. And before that, in the late fifties, there was w j j D and w I n D playing popular music. But LS was the first real, full blown balls to the wall top four. Okay, so now you're addicted. What happens? Well then I started, uh really about the same year, dialing around to see

if there were other tough forty stations. That's where I discovered stations like w ABC, Yeah, another clear channel stations, and uh so I became a d xer, meaning and you know, listen around the dial and find stations from kf I in Los Angeles came in back then, and I was enamored by even though they weren't top forty, just finding other stations around the country. Yeah, I think I don't know what it stands for, but it means

a radio listener, sort of like um of of distant stations. Okay, so you said that you would go downtown in high school with your friends, so you had other friends. Was anybody is into it at least half as much as you? Music? They were in two It's a matter of fact. In nineteen sixty five, I managed rock bands around Chica Ago and um, I was Irving as Off, still working in Chicago at that point. No, he wasn't. He wasn't there yet. This is uh and uh. And these were again not

not the Buckinghams or anything like that. They were just small, you know, playing the bar mitzs and sock ops. And it's funny, that's really the roots of the A O r idea because what we used to do is me and my friends we'd say, um, you know, these bands played little at in Loopy lou midnight hour and Louis Louis over and over again. Is that what people want to hear? So we'd hand out these questionnaires, what would you like to see the band played next week's sock op?

And an amazing thing happened and that was the top forty. Audience started to fragment. We noticed a lot of guys, mainly between about fifteen and eighteen, saying, don't play that w R Ship. We want to hear the Yardbirds and the Birds and the Beatles and the Stones. So Dan started playing that and became pretty popular. But that movement really grew in sixty six. And so if you knew Hendricks were, you were in the or cream, you're kind of in the know. If you know who Graham Bond

organization was, you're really in the know. Then sixty seven came, this movement got bigger and bigger, and sixty nine all hell broke loose and that's when I started working in Earnest on the on the format. But as far as friends, they were in the bands or just people who you know, we're just okay, are you the entrepreneurial sort? I mean being a manager. A successful manager has a certain personality. Yeah,

I don't think I could do it. I don't think I'm mean enough to do it on a professional level. But back then, as far as guiding the bands and booking, uh, you know, the local venues and just general guidance something. So did you make any money doing it? Yeah? What about that? When you told the bands to police specific music? Would they listen to you? Oh? God, they were into it. They were like, yeah, okay, how many bands did you three? Okay? Managed? Okay?

So but other than management in high school, you're not working in radio? Actually, I Um, I worked at a station in Miami when we'd go there on vacation, station that I just loved in like sixty six w q A M, which was a fantastic radio station. And uh, I actually wrote to them and said, well, you know, we'd go down to Eastern Christmas and I'd say can

I come by? And uh, you know, I love your station and programmers insured So I I went went by there one time, had a meeting with him, give game a lot of ideas and feedback, and um, they hired me for whenever I was on vacation. They paid me with the news tip of the week money, which is five dollars and sixty cents unless somebody set a fire and reported that I wouldn't get paid. But yeah, I filed records, got them. Okay, So were you more of a music anim more of a radio fan? Really both? Um?

You know I have to say fifty okay, okay, so graduate from high school. Your parents want you to go to college. Um, but I didn't. I did that go down? Well? I and about sixty nine, I created this format and sent it to everybody, all the group heads and all that, and one guy called me back, these are all radio group heads. Yeah, actually ninety. When I got out of high school barely, I went to Miami and had a job at w q A M, which was where I worked.

That was seventy and uh. Then when I was working at q AM, I I told him I was really an FM. Just just just not for one second. You're a teenager coming into these uh and talking to these radio station execs and giving them your ideas. What is

their reaction? You know? It's interesting? Uh they were Okay, it was a combination of this guy knows what he's talking about because I got all the N A B. Billboard conventions, but he sure looks like an actually a teenager, so I think it's might be worth listening to because they get you know, hippies coming in and say, dude, play more mothers and I was no, no, here's the direction you need to go. Here at the demographics, stalk the language, and I think they were pretty impressed. Okay.

So in high school you would go to the billboard conferences on Billboard and uh N A b s and where were those located? Billboard was usually in New York and the N A b s were usually in Chicago. And your parents just gave you the money or you have the money and just went you the money and use my youth card, and uh went to the conventions and it was again it was like really cool. Was there anybody else your age? No other college students, but

nobody quite as young. Okay. So now you graduate from high school, you're working at w q A M. Yes, and uh, they knew I was into FM. So I was sending out these proposals to all these people group heads, and most of them wrote very nice letters back, and it was fine. One guy, Buzz Bennetty you may have heard of, call and said, hey, dude, I got your proposal.

We're starting a station in Miami. You know, they just bought the Bartel FM stations and he said it's Top forty and said, that's okay, it's FM, and so I gotta meet higher there and we're just a little bit slower. You're interested in FM because oh, the fidelity and you can see the future was there and okay, but it was the sound as well as the different programming because what year was at sixty seven when the government said you have to have different programming on AM and fight

because a lot of companies held both. Okay, and at this point in time, with these you're literally pitching a format. That's the first thing you're doing, yes, and the format is what ended up being a O R okay. So okay. So you take the station in Miami, the Top forty and play lots of Partridge Family records and uh, it's funny because entire staff were stoners. I mean, we're just gout.

We all, um, there's a new station. Um. And the entire staff came from different parts of the country and we all met one day and said, you know, instead of getting shitty apartments, why don't we all get a mansion like in Coconut Grove and pitch in and we'll all live there. So we did. It was a que house. It was in Coconut Grove and it was ground zero for getting high. All the record guys would come over every night and it was it was amazing. And uh

so you were never in front of the mic. Yeah, I was on the air at w m r Q, but I was also a music director and assistant program director. And um, our attitude was, you know, these are little kids, were we can easily you know, get them crazy in a good way, you know, just by doing you know, just a supercharged kind of radio. And we did that. It was very successful. And then one day one of the people I had sent a proposal to was ABC. Now,

were you still sending them when you had your job? No? Okay, so they This was actually maybe a year or two later, like a year later because I was a dem or Q, which was the top forty station, about a year and it was Alan Shaw from ABC. He said, you know, we've gotten your proposal and we've had a chance to look at it, okay, and would you like to talk to us about being a program director of one of

our stations. Yeah. So um he flew down to Miami and we met and the next day they offered me uh w r I F and Detroit, which said, yeah, all going from Miami to Detroit and February was it was difficult, but so now you were also gonna be on the air. I was making two fifty dollars a year a week. There was a wage in price freeze that Nixon put out and they couldn't give me a raise, and they said, you know when the raising wage in

price freeze cancels will pay you more. But yeahs So you got at w R r F. What is the station? Before you get there? It was underground mishmash all over the road and run by um like revolutionaries. It was just they were more interested in uh creating um mess um revolution than they weren't winning. So that was interesting. Way who was creating mass revolutions? Well, the existing staff which was okay, what year seventy early seventy two and um, okay. I was there for a while and I was doing

the ABC format, which is a lot. It was great, but it was a lot different from what I had mind. And then one day what was the ABC format? It was a very tight it's kind of a O R format, but very restrictive, none of the none of the magic. It was very um and we did go to number

one in teens, beating c KLW, so it worked. Um. Then our afternoon drive JOCKET w x y Z, the sister station the Riff w RF, came to me and said, you know, I have a friend in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I told him about what you guys are doing and all your ideas, and he wants to do something with his FM. His a M was w PTF we Protect the Family and big monstrous uh southern middle of the Road station and they had this FM they doen running just background music on. I said, well it sounds great.

So as guy Carl Venters flies up to Detroit we have dinner and on the spot said come on, do your format. Uh great, So I did the format Darren. It went to number one like in one reading book and a B. It was in the Hamilton's Report, which was one of the big trade papers. Then did like a cover story on it. You know, QDR and rolling number one and ABC sit for wait a minute, do

you work for us or for them? And basically they gave me an ultimatum, you can either get rid of that client and work with us, or you can go your own way. And I decided I'm gonna go my own way and do uh so w qd R and and they were just a consultant in North Carolina. How much were you charging the station? Thousand dollars a month? Yeah, I think that was it. And then got another station down in New Orleans w R and Oh how did

you get them? Um start after w R w qd R success just um uh sent letters around, but then the big break came New Orleans. You did get take that station over? Yeah? And the big break, Well there are w qd R and Rawley was repped by a company called Crystal, which was our national radio representation firm, and a guy named Gordon Hastings who ran it, called one day and said, you know, can you do what you're doing? And for all other markets? Says, oh, absolutely,

no problem. So so, well there's the TAFT Broadcasting chain. And I'd like to introduce you to Carl Wagner, who runs the operation, runs the radio group because they don't know what to do with their fans, but they see that's the future. Would you meet with them if it? Sure? So, Carl, and I met at the n A B in New Orleans, and he said, I love it. You can't love it. I want you to talk to all of our general managers at our annual manager's meeting, which is coming up

in a couple of weeks. Don't keep this gain. Can you be there? Yeah? So flew to keep his game and TAFT broadcast. It was so funny because again I had long hair and a beard, and these guys were all very preppy, and um so I did the presentation and signed almost all and signed Buffalo, Kansas City, Columbus, Pittsburgh, all in but Cincinnati because they were happy with their top forty direction. Um So anyway, um we went in and uh did most of the TAFT group. And what

really helped me at that pitch was these guys. Again, we're all really preppy, you know, the EAD shirts and uh, short hair. Me and another guy who were the only two guests. They're guy named Ed McLaughlin from ABC. Uh, we're doubles partners in the tennis tournament. And we won and they were laughing at us. You know, McLoughlin is an old guy in this hippie you know, and we kicked their ass and I think that the only thing better would be if I would win the golf tournament,

which it didn't even enter. But that cemented a really good long term relationship. And all four of those more five of those markets. Uh boy again, first book just exploded, and um that's what really when it really took off, because that got a lot of attention, and that's when people started calling and uh saying, hey, can you be in San Francisco tomorrow, Seattle, whatever, And it also started becoming a business with contracts and all that and how

much did you charge? Um, it was usually uh at that time thousands and two thousand a month, and uh, you know I didn't know what to charge if that's

why I'm asked him. Yeah, it's just you know, I had a guitar case in the suitcase, and but I knew this guy kept seeing this guy Ken't Burkhardt, who was scoring a lot of success at AM Radio, and I actually had met him at one of the conventions and I called him up, said, Kent, you got the A M thing down, and you're you know, you've been a group had and you're you know, old in your forties whatever, and I got the FM thing. Maybe we gotta put put things together. He said, great idea, can't

Let's meet in in uh St Paul. So we met literally a couple of days later at KSTP and St. Paul in a conference room and just hammered out a deal. And that's when I, uh, you know, a couple of days later, moved to Atlanta and we started Burkhard Abrams. So he was in Atlanta and CASTP was his station, and I was in Chicago. Okay, so you make a deal fifty fifty partners and what is what did you say?

You hammer out a deal? What elements are in the deal? Well, he would handle all the business side, all the contracts, uh all the front of the travel expenses, um um, all of his contacts and uh, I would go ahead and you know, you sign him up all I'll get him, get him ratings. Okay, So what happened? It was great. Um. He did again did introduce me to a lot of his UH group heads that were otherwise tough to contact, and it was a great relationship and uh we just

really exploded. He got to the point in the mid seventies when it was like, oh no, not another news stations just getting so many and I just really took off and kept going. And you know the rest of the sort of history. When it was his pet comedy stations. Did you have, uh, rock stations, probably about a little over a hundred, and what other stations you have, like a M Top four. He had to you weren't doing

anything with that, Okay. So the funny story is in ninety nine he uh my stations were blowing up disco records. Meanwhile he was consulting w K to You, which went to number one doing disco. So people thought we were fighting and okay, so what was your pitch then? Um, the pitch, which UH did a lot of, was talking about, first of all, identifying the audience. We call them vulnerable

Top forty listeners. These are people who listen to Top forty and there's cums are huge, but really didn't like it when Bread or the Carpenters came on, but loved it when Santana and the Moody Blues came on. So what if we're creating a format that eliminates Bread and the Carpenters and all that stuff, which is you know, fine, it's not us, and really focus on this new generation of artists and change the familiarity factor from song title to artists. So instead of just the hit songs, you'd

hear those, but you'd hear so much depth. And it was called the oh wow factor. So people would hear, well, let's uh Santana, but it's not oh ya coma a again. You know, it's some other cool track that's some moody blues, but it's not Knights in White Satin. And so we had tremendous depth and yet didn't sacrifice familiarity. Of course, we did introduce new artists. What we did is we

really got into him. And because I found a lot of the progressive stations, would you know, add a new record, but play it, you know, infrequently because the morning guy didn't like it. The night guy loved it, so he'd played it a lot. But you know, so we added. So we talked about the audience, the basic nature of the format. Um talked about the importance of image enhancers, which were the special features which enhanced the image of what we were trying to create, which was as commercial

as possible without losing progressive identity. It's real commercial, easy to listen to for those vulnerable top for your listeners, but still had that progressive edge. It was because it was you know, Yes and Jethro Toll and um. But the image enhancers were a big part of it. That was the Beatles, A to Z and uh. That was you know things you still here now which were new

at the time. You know too for Tuesdays midnight album hours will play a whole album, you know, uninterrupted so you can check it out, and um, you know all those things. And so we talked about again the audience, the sort of structure of the format, and then we talked a lot about their market and where the listeners would come from, which is very important because they didn't

want anything syndicated. They wanted it to be you know, adjusted for And we talked about staffing and um, usually a long Q and A where they just have questions and okay, so let's soon a station bought it. How much marketing was necessary, you know, um, really not much. A lot of these stations didn't have much budget. It was either a big am station and there's FM, which they wanted to run cheap, which we were able to do,

or was mom and pop stations. It just so some stations later on, particularly when it started getting ratings and making money a lot of television, but initially it was word of mouth, okay, and uh and little things like we'd fly banners over concerts and stuff like that. Okay, how much Let's say I was one of your stations after I bought it? How much? What would I get from you? Would you call me, would you send a letter?

What would happen? Okay? We would have. First thing we do back then was the program director, who was either the existing guy or somebody we'd help help them find, would come to Atlanta for two to three days, usually over a weekend for an orientation or I just explain everything to him and they asked questions and it's just so when we're done with that three days, as p D is sort of brainwashed, gets it. And then together we'd fly to the market and spend about a week

setting it up. And that would include, you know, just uh, introducing the format obviously, meeting with the staff a lot, meeting with the sales department, going on sales calls if they they wanted that, and um. And after the first week it should be pretty much you know, coming along and then would usually come back uh every six weeks or so, and spent two days. So you were on the road a lot. I was on the road constantly. And when in this picture did you get married? Uh?

Right in the middle of so the fact my wife was a DJ at w q d R, which is where I met her. Hu and you're still together. Yeah, pretty amazing. How many years have been I should know this, U Uh, forty will be forty four years right? Okay? So, uh, many people would say that you killed FM rock radio because you codified it. What's your reaction to that. Well, a couple of things. One, no one person can kill

as big as FM radio. But you know, I think a lot of people thought we went in and change each free form station to this real tight format and uh, you know, get rid of those free form guys. Now our attitude as we had a formula. It was aimed again at the vulnerable top forty listener, recognize that there

are a lot of people really passionate about music. Uh. We just went to the clubs and all that that didn't really want to hear you know, Foreigner or led Zeppelin, and they had their stations, the progressive stations, and it's really not our fault and a lot of those more adventurous progressive stations just uh shot themselves in the foot with lack of discipline or whatever. So our attitude is, you know, we had a style. Everybody knows what it is.

It was the soundtrack of America, got huge ratings, made a lot of people happy. But it wasn't at the expense of anybody else. It was everybody, any station, any person was free to come in and try to do something better. And at the time it was labeled Superstars. Yeah, that was kind of a handle for never on the air, but for the station owners and stuff. And how did somebody come up with a O L do you remember?

You know? Uh, we always called an album rock and I think it might have been Mike Harrison who came up with roblem oriented rock. Mike Harrison now was in the talk field. What was he doing then? Was he? I think he was program director of like kPr I and Sandy. Okay, so you had a trade sheet from you're doing this, yeah, what are there must be competitors?

Early on there were a lot of local people who tried it, and it was usually we know our market better, Uh Van Halen is not big here, or just something ridiculous, uh, and they just you know failed, but later on about nineteen I guess was about eighty. We had consulting competitors. There was Jeff Pollock and John Sebastian and I think a little later on Fred Jacobs mainly, and then there are a lot of sort of second tier guys. So you basically owned the seventies. Yeah, okay, At what point

did you stop working as a radio consolant? Uh? I joined Satellite Music Network, which actually our company started, or co started, And because then I saw the future. I was getting a little burned out on the travel for one thing, but also saw the future of satellites. And this was not satellite radio like XAM, but it was a dozen for ten formats broadcasting from Dallas, beaming up to satellite, then beaming down to local radio stations that would rebroadcast it. And I just thought there was a

lot of potential there. And we started the z rock format, which was unfortunately, um it was too scary for a lot of people. We got a lot of to tell my audience, what is zerock format is? Z rock was a heavy metal, really hard rock. It was you know, we played led Zeppelin and Hendrix, but the real meat of it was Metallica and uh and Motley Crewe and like that. And it was hard in your face. It was really great. It was like a party. It was insane.

And then it started working on their other formats too, and we had about stations, mostly in smaller markets. And make a long story short, ABC Era, Yeah, ABC bought it Cap Cities, No ABC, and they really kind of screwed it up, you know. Okay, wait, how many years if you went there at eight eight, how many years later at ABC buy it about three or four years into it? Okay? And just to be clear, you're beaming down seven or just programming to use real time? Okay?

And where where were all the stations? They were everywhere? Um, you know, I mean the stations were. Where was your headquarters in Dallas? In Dallases? Okay, So let's go back. Uh, disco comes along. What was your viewpoint of that? Ah, excuse me? That was interesting. Disco was about we thought it was a hundred eighty degrees from rock and roll. Whereas rock and roll was about real drummers sweating, disco was about drum machines. Rock and roll was about festival seating, crime,

your way up to the front. Uh, Disco was about you know, a bouncer who if you didn't look right when you let you in. Rock and roll was all about tremendous musicianship and guitars and disco no guitars. Rock was about long hair. Disco was about short, greasy hair, and uh, so we knew it. And then we also had some research just to back up our belief. And just stop here for a second. Where are you at

on research? Because I lovel you're researching in high school, you're researching then, but you're talking about today's radio stations have research which is wrong. Yeah, in street research is what I call it, uh, whereas the more traditional research is heavily flawed. The three research things we got got involved in UM early on in like or so we did. I did hitchhiking studies or I'd wake up in the morning. Couldn't do that now, but back then you could hitchhike

and watch people's uh reaction to the radio. That's one thing I learned real quick was in radio circles talking up a record, you know, up to the vocals was boy, that was good. People hated that. Shut up. So we found a lot of things like that, and so you would get into state, would you tell them you were checking out or were you just observed? Just observed? Then we did a thing called callback cards were at participating

record stores. Whenever anybody bought a record, they fill out a card, put their name, age, phone number, and the record they bought, put it in a box. There would be a drawing it's huff uh, and then we'd collect the cards and call back the people who bought a given a record, and two things we want to find out. Mainly one was okay, you bought the record, you lived with one of the cool songs, and so that really helped us figure out whatever three four or five songs

to play from the album. The other one was to find out if people who bought albums just because we were album rock didn't mean play any album. And then I remember there was one band, Graham Central Station, which was a pretty cool band. But we called the people back who bought it. They didn't listen to us and they never listened, just not our audience. So that was helpful and we um and then uh, there's still a lot of exit polls outside of concerts, again just to

get a feel for the people. But that's the sort of stuff we did. We never what are people doing today? Oh? Now it's he's um, you know formal you know, Manhattan telephone book sized reports on testing songs and focus groups and things like that, where I just find them pretty useful. I think they're one of the problems that radio is so tight. It's like with call call out research, I remembered, because not everybody's okay, yeah, that's where you um, I'm sorry,

not call out, but auditorium testing. That's where you invite jet people into an auditorium, give him a form and you play to this group of people, uh different you know, a couple of seconds of different songs, and people rate it one to five. You know one I hated, five, I love it, and that's all. Then uh uh put together in into a book and I remember it sort

of forced Greed. And when it first came out, uh, because we were playing everything by the Beatles, it said that there were really about forty Beatles songs that really you were, you know, fives and alright, so station would go and play those forty and then they do another research project and say, you know, we're playing forty, some's our competitive let's take it down to twenty see what happens, and then they go down to ten and finally they're

playing Hey Jude, maybe day in the life. Um. So these were your stations, as we said, just like please um and uh. When disco happened, um, we obviously did the callback cards and would find it. People didn't dislike the disco, people didn't dislike rock who bought the discor they hated it. You know, it's just no this this is the beat Man and uh so we decided to take kind of anti disco stance and what it really

meant was reinforcing our rock and roll heritage and all that. Um. And then Steve Doll uh took it a step further at our client was he was he a client? And were you aware of what he was gonna do? Yeah, tell us your viewpoint. Um, he was doing it on the you know. We went into the Loop and Loop was at that time a great state Chicago. Yes, and we had the opportunity to just build it from scratch.

So we every element of that station. We adjusted. The logo you know, looked like graffiti in an underpass in Chicago. The station just had a rock beat to it, you know, and that didn't play James Taylor, but played a lot of you know, Ted Nugent and Heart and all that. Um. But anyway, Steve really caught on with caught onto it, and he started blowing up disco records on the air and people would call him, hey, blow up that Donna

Summer and he'd blow him up. And then, um, it was I think the idea of some any of the White Sox we're having attendence problems, why doesn't he do disco demolition live? And everybody's thought, wow, great idea, Sox game, and of course the rest is history. But it was unbelievable, Um, I mean everything from on TV. There were Bill Veck, who owned the White Sox, um face to face with Steve Doll and you know Bill ember one line. Bill said, you know that was terrible you did this and Steve said,

what are you complaining about? You haven't had that many people in misty parks in UM and thenny Kid kick I got kind of weird because people would send in broken radios. So some asshole, you know, playing his disco here's what I did do in Steven. And then they took the disco demolition on the road and would do it in front of discos. This was even after Steve Dollard blowing up the record, so he kept going, uh no, no,

eventually ran its course. But the station from a two three to a seven to inlay with that is I'm sorry, that's a rating service one one three or so. That's kind of a low share of seven two percent percent of the audience. Um, seven two is huge seven two in Chicago particularly. And then we looked at the diaries, which are the things that people filled out to determine

the ratings, and uh, it was unbelievable. People were putting six am to midnight the Loop because it rocks, and the next person long live the Loop, you know, and it just listened all day because we thought that was almost flukey, that kind of rise, but really hit a nerve with the Blue Collars Chicago. Okay. I also remember there are a couple of things there used to be. This was in Jimmy Carter and I ran and the Hostages, and it seemed like a lot of these rock stations

moved to the right where rock stations historically been left. Yeah, that's true. Um they did, uh you know, I remember there were novelty songs Bom Bom, bomb. That what I was thinking, And uh, yeah, they were not all the DJs, but a lot of them were very pro USA And so how I'm talking about Steve Dhal. How important were the DJs on the air at the Loop and ideally at all stations, but it wasn't always a case but Loop they were critical. They were again the they tied

it all together. They were rock and roll at Kaizak Skid annuals and uh and um Mitch Michael's and just every So what would cause them to get fired? Uh, in the case of Steve Dhal, usually ownership, So they just like, this guy is gonna get us in trouble, He's gonna lose their license. Other than in that end, you know, radio they uh there's a Harry Chapin's song about it. Very few people have a long tenure. What is that really out? Uh yeah, it's funny about radio.

Guys just keep moving to bigger markets and bigger markets and then one day they can't work at all. And then they can't work at all they go into real estate or or someone going to record promotion whatever. But yeah, it's weirdest business. I remember reading uh want ads for DJs and everyone it had not a floater meaning you know,

floating from station to station. But there's a website I think it's called Satisfaction for forty that takes uh, pretty much everybody has been on the air and shows you where they've been, and it's unbelievable. People stay for a year in the twenty stations over ten years. Okay, So then h MTV now listen on the on the record end of it. In seventy nine, records went totally down. Okay, Black Friday at CBS records is that was Black Monday? Can't remember? And uh, they fired all these people. Did

you feel that at the radio stations at all? No, not really. Okay, So then MTV comes along. How does that impact you? Well, we were very much guiding our stations to avoid the MTV inferiority complex because there were some people who said, I'm PP will never last. Others, oh my god, we're fucked um, and I was like, no, you've got like ninety seven percent of America listens. You're to radio, your dominant. Um, they're not gonna go away. Just you know, let them do what they do. You

do what you do as great as you can. And it's just a better experience for everyone. Well, I certainly know in America, I mean in American Los Angeles we ended up getting top forty on the FM, which, kay, you know, the stations of flip format a couple of times and call letters, but they would play basically the MTV hits and only the MTV hits, which we never had that at such tight playlisting on FM. Yeah. I

don't think that's necessarily smart idea. I think station is gonna do what they do and do it great and the in MTV blessom, let them do it, Okay. But there are stations, you know. That's when k Rock became Rock of the eighties. It was a three format station with a week signal from Pasadena before that, okay, and then in Los Angeles where peaked, there were five they o our stations, Okay. They would play things like Soft Cell and Human League and Klos and Kmet would not

play it, and they eventually went on them. So what was your viewpoint about what was going on? Then? Oh, pay a lot of attention to it. And in fact I went to England right around that time and just to see what was going on, and some of the bands were just they weren't gonna happen in America, but the U two's and obviously the Polices, and there were a lot of bands that, hey, we need to pay attention to these guys, and MTV also opened a lot

of you know, the men at works and stuff. So we were careful and we used the callback cards a lot, but we were careful about what we added and just made sure that even though it falls under the MTV slash New Wave banner, that the right for us. And there are a lot of stations that you know, played records that were new waves just to have a new wave category and they weren't really right. That didn't fit well with Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, but there were some

that did, and obviously the you twos and Polices and right. Okay, so MTV is rolling. Uh. A couple of questions, when would you decide to change coal letters when you change the format, Um, it really depended on the station if they were already a rock station, usually keeping what they were if they were going, which a lot of them did, from adult contemporary or beautiful music to rock. We try to do it right in sync with when we were launching the new format. Okay, you also started to become

involved with acts. How did that happen? Well, um, it's uh a couple of ways. One, there's some information and insight I think we had on the American audience that, you know, if they found it helpful. Again, yes, Moody Blues bands like that made the English ones who were in some cases getting bad advice. I remember people telling the Moody Blues kids are dancing, now you gotta make dancer, or telling yes, uh, make short records. Nobody wants to

hear the long stuff anymore. Uh. So I'd come in as a sort of the voice of reality and you know, established and credibility with him. And then um uh Chris Blackwell at Island hired me to just do sort of reports on a lot of their bands, in which I did everything from I think it's freak he goes to Hollywood too. Uh. I think we did some YouTube stuff and all that, and uh, Capital asked us to get

involved with Bob's Seager. So we do these um thorough reports, but very unlike you know the traditional research of hardcore numbers, these sort of painted, living breathing pictures of what people how people perceive the artists. Now you were were not involved in the jeth Row tull Uh. You know, they up famously decided what was gonna be on the radio, what we're gonna be the singles based on research. No, okay, that was the one that but okay, so let's continue.

So now you're on the other thing is you're a big guitarist through all this, right yeah? Yeah, so you could connect with people And did you spend time in the studio with these bands? And you know, because you've got some producing credits, but would you actually give input? Yeah? Absolutely, Like what kind of input? Um? Usually before the fact. Uh. You know, it's like ever with General Giant, the record

wasn't a hit, could have been. Um. I remember playing him Kashmir and not saying, make a song like this, this is the kind of heaviness you need, uh, And um I'd play him a lot of stuff that they hadn't heard. And with Yes that was very deep, particularly

Chris Squire. It was a good friend. We argue for hours about the future of Yes, and with John Anderson too, and they were really in a tough position because they had management and at that time even the label steering and what I thought was the wrong direction and uh, the biggest problem was they had such a fluke smash with nine five that was says, oh, they need to make more records like this. No, let that one Live and Breathe. But there's other, you know, kind of yes

is ms that need to be in the mix. We also had a label, two labels, uh, one called Voyager and one called Cinema. Yeah, those were who were on those anybody successful. Voyager we had Dave Mason and Johnny Winter and on Cinema that was more of an electronic music label. We had one that got a lot of airplay, which was Pete Barton's I don't remember so called in Dreams. The problem with that the label, that's a full time job, and who was running that for you? It was sort

of self run and they were let's go back. So now you sell the satellite distribution company, and where does that leave you. In the early nineties, I went right to UM. Well it was UM sold to ABC. I stood up, stayed around, and then eventually ABC was sold to Cap Cities, And with each reincarnation it became more sterile. And I had heard about satellite radio and the other kind accent and you know, there's nobody to talk to. I mean, they were just like these companies, but you know,

they had no offices nothing. So one day I actually um called a recruiter who I had heard was I was doing business with them finding people. I said, well, uh, I need to be there, and uh. The someone flew out to l A for the and UH talked to them and they said, oh, yeah, you sound like a

perfect candidate. And went to UM Washington to meet with Gary Parsons, who was the telecom guy who was the chairman of the company, and a guy named Lan Levin who was sort of his right hand man, and spent the day and I did the pitch of the century because I really wanted this one, and I got hired. I was actually the first person they hired. Really, what was your pitch? The oh, the pitch was really defining it.

Z Again, we're telecommunications guys whose idea was rock would be rock one rock to rock three country one know and uh and it would be like music just no DJs, no, no, just music audio service. That's what they call it. No, no, you're missing it. They should be amazing radio stations. Uh

give them names, given character personalities. Let's the time is now looking at Terrestra radio to hand and just the industry in general, to hand pick amazing people to do radio for the reason they got into it in the

first place, rather than what it's turned into. And gave me examples of names of formats and what the channel or channels, what the channels might be, and um talked about how we'd go ahead and put it together and how we do boot camps and things like that and re educate people and uh all so you know, provide the company with just this whole attitude this is not an audience or this is a cultural musical broadcasting revolution,

and let's get people excited. Because again they they just come from a different area and they were very uh you know, like telecommunications guys. You know, we get some tape machines and just okay, so what year did you start working for x M? Okay, how long after the pitch did they say? Yes? Next day? Okay, so you're working at x M. X M is slaughtering serious, which launches Leader. Then Howard comes up. What's your viewpoint on Howard?

And then how it played out in satellite radio? Oh god, Um, I went on a rampage to get Howard I said, it's all over. We have sevent in the market now we'll have if we get Howard. We gotta get him, and me and the CEO went up there and talked to Don buck Wald, this agent yep, and met with Howard a bunch of times. And I'm still piste off about this. But the board said, no, was it gonna be a similar deal to what Sirius ended up giving him news, which is less right. It was gonna be

like a hundred million. They end up him a hundred millions for I think for five guaranteed years or four guaranteed years. Right, it was half of that, okay, But we were the early game and done. He wanted to be with us. He thought the other guys were lame. This is before mel Karmson came aboard serious and uh he was ready in the kind of we penciled out the terms and uh again the board and the senior management of x M just thought, uh, you know, not

gonna be worth it. Uh you know, it's we can we can get Oprah for that kind of money and uh no, no, you don't understand. And they're non radio background sort of shine through and I lost that one. And then Uh. Karmason joined Serious. Of course, he and Stern had a great relationship. He brought him board right away. And I was like, okay, so back when Serious was offering double what you were, Okay, Howard didn't go with

you because of the money. No, Howard didn't go because our our board said no. They said no to the half the money. They said no to the idea of Howard. Money wasn't a problem. They were afraid that Howard is going to stink up the station. Howard, he's trouble. Uh didn't he say uh bad things about the FCC commissioner And we don't want to lose their license and uh, you know these guys, there will be another Howard that comes along. And yeah, right, yeah, okay, how did you

get Bob Dylan to do with show on X? Okay, that was a good one. I had a list of people I thought, you know, really would be great and Dylan was right at the top. And tried for a long time to find out who to talk to and talk to the label. They weren't really too helpful. Talk to another guy who kind of manages tours. Finally, a guy named Jeff Rozen. Somebody said, oh he handles Dylan's affairs. So I called Jeff and he said, uh, wow, that's interesting Bob Dylan and next M Bob loves x M.

He has like twelve videos. Oh great, so you mind if I come This is him talking about if I come down and talk to you guys in d C. He was coming down to check us out, see if we weren't you know, okay in retrospect began DC as opposed to New York or l A. Did it hurt x M? No? Okay, And we had a presence in New York at the Lincoln Lincoln Center, the Jazz at Lincoln Center, so we did lots of broadcasts from there, and okay, so Rosen comes down. Rosen comes down, and

he really we hit it off immediately. We're going through old Melody Maker magazines and old billboards and I kept in my office and uh. I took him on the tour like did with with you, and he met you know, the Eddie Kilroys and all the characters, and he met our c EO Hugh Panero, who I was afraid might be a little corporate, but now he was great. He was like, Hey, we're all about music. Bob's you know, God, you know and all that, and he said, this is great.

You know. I spent a couple of hours and he went back to New York. That I met him, I flipped in New York. We had lunch and he said, uh, yeah, you know, I talked to Bob, would really like to do a channel. And as I said, how about a show? You know, why a channel? Do you realize what that would take? You know, I mean that's way too adventure. I'm thinking about, Bob, you can't channel and do you want to hire all these people and all that? And okay, I see your point. A show and uh, make a

long story short. He got together with Bob again. They came up with the idea to do theme time radio hour, and then it went through about we did a conference call every week. Bob was sometimes on those. It was a Jeff Rosen and his sort of team and really pot plotted and planned how we're going to launch it and all this and um. Then the lawyers went through the contracts and it was pretty hard, pretty um harmless,

you know, it wasn't any big surprises. And then finally the contracts were signed to pick a launch date, and again we talked at least every week and then he goes on the air, and it was just amazing how much of the show idea was his or how much? How much input did you have because it was a unique show. Oh no, it was he had total creative control. It's like, you know, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. Okay. Did you end up meeting with him? And what was he like to deal with? Great? He

thought that the radio was cool. He's one of these guys who, you know, like all of us, listen to the fifty thou Wealth stations on his Friends to radio and underneath the covers late at night, and was enamored with the dub l I C in Nashville and you know those kind of stations. And but it was all him, all the the ideas and the themes and all that. And um we helped sort of the publicity of it, which didn't need. It's kind like front page of New York Times and Wall Street Journal And uh was it

a lucrative deal? Yeah? That was great. It was funny for them. Were they making money on it? Oh? Yeah? Okay, So how does it end ultimately? How does it end for you? And how does it end for x M. Basically there's a merger in Serious ends up running the whole thing. Yeah, I was supposed to be a merger

of equals, which is a laugh. Uh. You know it was clear that even though they had less audience and our subscriptions, the next time, uh, when it was announced, you could see the writing on the wall, this is gonna be crazy. And about that time, Randy Michaels and Sam's l called and wondered if I wanted to come up to Chicago hometown and help revolutionize newspapers and uh some of the TV stations who say hell yeah to perfect timing. So that's when I went to Chicago. It

was I guess it was two two thousand nine. What do you think of Serious today since you were the programmer at x M. Well, I'm a big fan of it as a concept, but I think they've gotten very uh traditional. Uh they're more like terrestrial radio with the less commercials and uh so I think, well, again, i'm a fan and a subscriber, I think they've gotten a little corporate. Okay, so you famously go with Randy Michaels. He's radio guys who run the Tribune newspapers. What is

the vision at the time. Okay, the vision of the newspaper side was um, streamlining it. I mean, you know some of these papers had five restaurant reviewers. You know, no wonder they're losing money, streamlining it, updating the look and feel of it. So it's just modernizing a little bit, um,

making sure you know, they were on the right topics. Uh, because I remember, you know, one day, Um, Jimmy Buffett was coming up to Soldier Field, which is a huge you know, sixty thou seats, and that got about half an inch, you know, and there was a change in the cello player at some symphony orcs they got four pages. Um in the White Sox played the Cubs. It was like civil war in Chicago back then, and uh nothing

nothing on the front page. They were talking about the perch infestation in the Chicago River or I think so um, and you know, they just trying to change the attitudes a little bit. Uh. There was one guy who said, you know, nobody does investigation investigative journalism like we do, so just you know, not to be uh you know, jerk about it. I just said, well, you know, sixty minutes,

that's a pretty either, that's not journalism, that's garbage, that's television. Okay, but you kind of face in that world, and there were a lot of people. You took a lot of flak. Oh my god, I'd say about Actually, when I look back, sevent we're kind of an agreement. Um l A Times in Chicago Tribune was a little higher percentage or a lower percentage of that, but generally throughout the company about seventy in agreement. We gotta do something, Let's move forward,

let's stick around another twenty years. Uh, We're like, I don't know where this guy is coming from, and I'll give it a listen in ten percent where this is horrible in terms of dealing with the newspapers themselves, was it only you were You were the king guy on that pretty much? Yeah, okay. Then there's a front page New York Times story and the whole thing blows up. Yes, um, that was about Colonel McCormick, who was the founder of the paper, owner on the paper, and it's heyday, had

a m uh sort of a sacred office. I'm surprised he wasn't like stuffed in the corner there. And then nobody went into um up on the top of Tribune Tower and uh, Randy and a couple other guys actually wasn't involved in it, but Randy of a couple of other guys, uh, decided to have a poker party up there. I went and it was great. Uh, you know, a lot of fun, a lot of people and um. Then one of the guys who was there posted pictures of it in Facebook. Those pictures got around to some of

the real hardcore you know, tribute lifers. And then and the boy they told this car guy in the New York David Car and they created all sorts of problems and yeah, you know frat uh uh it was it uh frat like behavior and the Tribune company and uh, poker parties. Alcohol there wasn't an alcohol but alcohol, and you know hookers or no hookers either. But you know, it blew out of proportion. But then it ended. They blew everybody out. Yeah I um, I was first. Uh

then everybody else followed. I was probably the most visible one there. And uh yeah, they said, this is our opportunity, that the ten percent, this is our opportunity to you know, bring real you know, traditionalists packing into the fault into the leadership, get rid of these these other guys and they were successful. To what degree did that negative publicity

hurt your image, hurt you in further business? Um? You know, I don't know because I didn't really go out and talk to me anybody, but probably didn't help um, even though I claim, you know, innocence, But uh, I'm sure there was enough coverage people would look at put a little asterisk by my name. That just because that's essentially about eight or nine years ago. Yeah, okay, So what's been going on since? Well, UH did a company, uh a news station, information station on digital television and it

was online called Touch Vision. Did that with Wi Good Broadcasting was a big broadcast in Chicago that lasted a couple of years, and they brought us out because they were traditional TV people and our idea was just too bizarre for him. We had no anchors and we had real We were really flashy. It was great. I should send you some some video of it. But it was a little too scary for them. And it was five

very I mean amicable. Uh. Then put together a plan for a company called V like the v so like the peace Sign, and it was gonna be uh five different news information channels but broken into totally new formats. Uh, an African American channel which would be to information what hip hop is to music really not not be et. A comedy channel but not stand up but cultural comedy, condom commercials from Russia and uh, stuff like that. Just bizarreness.

It's so bizarre and culturally strange. It's funny and um, a kid's channel, but one aimed sort of a sixty minutes for ten or thirteen year olds. This is where we might take. It's not pop cultures where we might take I don't know, um, pick up pick a record and instead of talking about the red carpet and all that, we deconstructed and talk about the publicity machine and the promotion behind it and all that so be really for a smart uh nine, ten or thirteen or fourteen year olds.

Then we have a political channel where everybody's full of ship. We're not right, we're not left, it's just uh. And we would do things like MST three thousand, Mr SADS Theater three thousand type presentations of debates, and it would be uh, we sort of model ourselves after the old National lampoon. And then uh, what's the other channel? Um

uh no, I guesaid was it. So anyway, we found an investor and got out of Westport, Connecticut, um and we had the term sheets done, everything done, just they did a year of due diligence and it was really, uh, just ready to go. One day I got a knock on my door at home and it's the FBI. What's this all about? And they said, are you doing business with bart Stock at Signal Lake Media so Adventures? And

I said yeah. I said, well don't and they came in and grolled me for forty five minutes and saying, the guys under investigation for fraud, for lying to the SEC in the Justice Department and un to make you know, a long story short. A couple of weeks later and he's indicted and he's going away for forty years. What year is that for you? This is like last year? Okay? So where does that leave you today? Still looking for money? Or are an organization that could get behind something like this? Okay?

Any thought of retirement? None? Zero? Okay, Financially you're okay? Yeah, okay, So let's go to news and information. What what does go? What do you think about the newspapers at this point in time? It's really the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and a lot of papers that are way down the chain. So what would you advise people who own newspapers, whether it be the big guys, a little guys to day. Well, I think they're still uh,

still valuable. Uh. Certainly increase their you know, digital presence. But I'd say the same thing I've talked to the Tribune about, modernize your look, make sure the content is exactly in sync with with who your audience is, and do a self audit. Really look at every page, every aspect of the paper, and say how can we do it better and in a more contemporary way. So I'd say you can't just go in there and change the look of it, but really audit the thing from where

creative audit and um and uh. I think a lot of changes would come out of that. Okay, but you know, physical papers on life support. So if you have it on the web, what would you change if it's a web page or an app Um, I think I'd make it uh well, some of them are doing a pretty good job of it, but I'd make it more interact of uh and uh, more opportunities to dig deep into a story. You really like, okay, and what do you think about paying for news? You know this week or

last week? Zuckerberg says he's gonna have you know, these news taps whatever. What's your view point on all that? Yeah, I think it's uh, it's best free and ad supported, because I don't think people like to pay. Okay. Now, as a cultural critic, you know, it's very different. And we start with music. It used to be in the heyday, if you made it, certainly everybody in the demo would

know you, and generally speaking, everybody would know you. Today we have these celebrities around TV shows and a small fragment in the audience even knows who they are. Yeah, it's overkill. So what do you think about that landscape, the celebrity landscape? Yes, I think it's sick. Uh, there's

so much celebrity worship. We had a feature on the Touch Vision which would probably have uh on our new channel, Uh, celebrity crimes against humanity, which instead of just embracing these people, really you know, if they're deserve embracing, fine, but if they don't really call them out okay, and then we have a very divided country. What's your view went on that. Politically, Yeah, it's uh, I think it's gonna stay that way for a while. Uh. It is so divided, I mean it's uh,

I've really never seen anything like it. Uh. This division has happened in the past, but it's magnified by the Internet and bloggers and and all these different sources. Uh. So I think it's again it's it's been this way, but never this extreme and never so magnified. I mean it's it's unbelievable. People are like un facebooking people because you're a Trump fan or vice versa. Okay, so let's start with the Republicans. If they want to maintain control,

what would your advice be to them? The Republicans, I would uh, well, I'd get behind Trump, just rally behind him and get him in there, because I don't think the Democrats putting up anybody. Okay, so let's sum. You're a consultant to the Democrats, what would you tell them? Oh, uh, get off this ultra progressive thing, get back to the middle a little more. I think the you know, I mean there are people who think they're communists, and it's

a lot of that self inflicted. So I would definitely get back to the middle and find somebody really powerful. Uh not not ultra progressive and not milk toast, but you know somebody who can stand up there to Trump. And who might that be? I don't know, that's the big Let's assume if Bloomberg ran, do you think he fits that bill? Probably? Yeah, I haven't heard enough of him. I mean just just a really make a final decision, but somebody like that. Okay, Just do you keep up

on the new music? New music? Um, I'll tell you what. I'm still learning to love. There's so much old music I've been getting into, like early country music, big band. So I really when I listened to stuff, a lot of just going back and rediscovering or discovering stuff from the past. New music that's very selective again like tool, Uh, just kept hearing so much about it. Check this out. So if you're one of those heritage bands, as they say, what would you advise them to do in terms of recordings?

They're all doing well on the road, Yes, I think get back to their their roots. That's a problem I know with Yes, they they lost track of what their roots are and make very push it. Leave take off, take off where you left off and just push it into new directions, um, maintaining your roots and remembering what got you there in the first place. But just i'd love to see like a bad like Paint Floyd take it to the next level, and pretty much every band from that era. So I think it's all about expect

that record. How would you market, how would you let people know? I think you just gotta go nuts on the Internet and social media and ideally ideally in a radio would play it, but you can't rely on that. But so you're really much more focused on the information world than the radio or music world right now. Yeah, pretty much. Although I do think if the opportunity existed to really blow up radio in a big way, you know, jump at that. But I don't. I don't see anybody

doing that. I mean, I list want to buy one of the groups. But the information again, in version is the new rock and roll in my opinion, I think that's for a lot of excitement is in video. Even listening to Lee Abrams, we heard his history in the radio business, the news business. I think we hit all the highlights. Anything that we didn't cover. Uh okay, Lee, thanks so much for doing this. Thank you great. Until next time, it's Bob left se