Ken West

went to art school where all the dysfunctional people. So it's just like uk t um and I soon discovered that I didn't like the idea of producing art and hoping somebody bought it. Didn't feel very good about selling myself. But then I did notice a lot of music came out of art school in those time. That's just generally

how most of the modern movement kind of happened. And I did notice straight away there were some people with incredible talent that couldn't tie their shoelaces, probably because they were so tunnel visioned about what they were producing. Um. Probably the earliest one to come along really was was Nick Cave when We're both one Um and that Gravitator and Ed Cooper from the Saints how did you know

Nick Cave? Uh? I got involved with Ed Cooper, who was the songwriter guitarist for the Saints, because I got invited down by a friend to hear them rehearse, because they were rehearsing for six months for their first shows, the Laughing Clowns, And they had a very strong connection with Nick Cave, so that when they went down to Melbourne, they supported what was then the Boys next Door, and when Poison next Door came up to Sydney, they'd support

the Laughing Clowns Mutual Appreciation Society. Okay, we rassed a chapter there. You would going to art school? Yeah, you said, Okay, I don't want to promote myself. I don't want to be victimized by the public. Was Nick Kieve a friend then became a friend pretty quick because when you're that young, you're working together, there's no real structure anything, no real

management structure around the place. Uh. It just very quickly snowball party to do with amazing person called Keith Glasses started missing link records and started signing all these acts and so as he's running an independent record store and roster. Then I started to move into the factor that I knew how to. I was originally enlightening and then went into producing shows, and then was booking the shows bearing

a mind. In those days, there was no such thing as somebody purchasing the show of this sorts of things. So it was renting halls, it was taking door deals at venues. But I want to go back to the beginning or at school. Yeah, how do you say I'm going to promote a show? I'm gonna how how do you just say I'm gonna go to the jump to the other side and be a business person. Okay, I'll

take it back to the simple thing. UM. At the round at the age of nineteen, the artist Christo came out, you mean the Christal of the guy who does you know umbrellas? And he had wrapped Shelly Beach for years earlier, had just completed running fence UM and similar situation. I suppose he did a talk at what was to become COVID wasn't called co for at the time. UM. Only four people turned up. There's only two of us were interested.

I just kind of had him for two hours and just talked through everything, and he talked in terms of what I needed to do running fence it was going to cost six million dollars and it took me five months to get that money together. You also mentioned that he never used volunteers. He tried to use volunteers, but they were hopeless, so it was easier for him to

find more money than use volunteers. Talked about the tribalism of say, running fence, where you'd end up with ten teams that were kind of competing against each other, all again pre mobile phone, and running in isolation like isolated tribes, and he'd be holding that thing together. And then I pretty much became the cornerstone of understanding of the concept of being about humanity more than making something to hang

in the gallery. That impermanence can be more permanent, uh, And that the the real point of it comes down to is that you can amplify something great a lot easier than something that's not great. And you don't need to be the most aware person to notice that there's something special going on with Nick Cave and he's twenty

one when he's producing very very angry. But I mean, we got to see Kristi and you're very inspired, Okay, yeah, inspired in a way that there's another way of doing things okay, and then does it What what's your thought process to say, Hey, I might want to have a music event which would be kind of like an evanescent event like running fans of the umbrellas or you know, surrounding the lakes the islands in Miami, et cetera. Yeah,

that was already done. So Uh. The point of it was, as I found that if there was a great subculture that was going on, that could be um pulled together to make a bigger statement. Also found that the performances when say, the group Laughing Clowns played with a normal support were pretty shabby. When the Boys next Door played become the birthday party later when they performed with an average kind of opening act, didn't really give it everything

they had. But when you put two competing bands on the one show on an equal bill, the their sets are on fire. Okay, that's something great. But you are an artist, Yeah, how do you literally become a businessman because they had to be a business Okay, but you woke up one day and say the answer is contro promotion. No, no, it was just a natural progression. That line of it is.

As they spent four years in art school, primarily to borrow the equipment because it was an electro media of course, thing that gave us access to lighting, film, sound, very low tech, a lot of it, some high tech. We collaborated with many other things. Were collaborated with the Conservatory of Music with Martin Wesley Smith, who was the just pioneering the electronics division of the of the Conservatory of Music.

We worked on various things outside, such as architecture review and things like that, where the arts end of things, of different parts of it was on a similar path um. And in that process I found that the real art was because I was saying friends at the time, you know, what's the point of art? Now? Warholes killed everything, so

we're starting to repeat ourselves all over again. And I just tried to follow the art, and the art was moving out of the visual arts world into the musical world, and I wanted to be more part of the future art,

not the past art um. And as that grew in that process and the experiments worked, there was the people that are around at that time didn't want to We're in seventy six, you said, seventy seventy nine when I did the first silly show that did not work out very well, and then so tell me about the two. So tell me about the first silly show. It was cheaper to hire a band with a p A than the p A, and the band I hired was shipped.

But I actually put it on because I wanted the band that I was living with at the time to play with a good PA. But it didn't work out. I learned my lesson, didn't I always stop whenever I failed, and then regroup. Sometimes I've stopped for a six months. Sometimes I've stopped for a couple of years. Um stop now for five. I don't have any hunger to go

back to it. There's better being on the outside than the inside at the moment, and I don't have that compulsion to keep doing it because I think the arts moved again now into science. Science you mean tech just

science in general. Two examples what you consider science. There's the scientific process of trying to solve problems in a futuristic sense that is needing the imagination of the artists to get it there, that it needs to have people around with the political and financial strength to make them happen. In the speculative world of it at the moment, there's a lot of failures. And I won't say that all

disruptive technology is good. Disrupted good technology. But I think in terms of you're a young creative person, you're going to drive more to war Woods a bigger picture, uh attitude to life than I'm going to get a band. I'm going to be an artist in paint. It's more the hard end of the stick to go. I want to do something that's important. So to use the old term from the rate stuff and Chuck Yeager, you're all about pushing the envelope. You're supposed to just money. I

prefer to throw out the envelope. Okay, But the point is you're not. The way you're saying is money is important, but that's not the number one driver. It's more about impacting the culture. Well, money could never be important because it's I've only ever seen even in in when living in a squad and not being able to basically have enough money to eat um. It hasn't been about money.

It's a bit the need to do it. Okay. So so I think I've said two things about it in time that the money for in most situations, created process is your tools to achieve your goal. It's not the end results, and if you do a good job in the simplest of terms, someone will send your check. Not nowadays, of course, but that's you can't be. If you're focusing on that aspect of it, you're probably gonna fail just a little bit slower. If let's say I have an endeavor, yeah,

and I certainly hope that it pays off. Should I forget about the money completely. You need to get paid for what you're worth. And if you can put something in structure there that you're going to get paid for what the value of you bring, then that will happen down the path. If you're wanted to get paid on a week by week basis, then you're beholding to somebody. Let's go back to the beginning. You grow up where in Sydney, Yeah, cover matters, and then what do your

parents do for your living? For a living? Father was a paymaster, mother was a chronic epileptic. She worked sometimes, didn't work sometimes. So the intuitive side of it with me was that we ended up about in cabramattic was and father fought World War Two and grew up in Ramwick, went to Sydney Boys High. His brother died in World War two as a Lancaster bomber navigator over France moved to Cabra matter on the basis that if Japan invades next time, we're further away from the very logical at

the time. Okay, how many kids in the family, just my sister and your sister was older, younger, No, she's gone, she's older. She wasn't particularly healthy. And did she pursue what we would call a street life a civilian she became an art teacher? Or really, so, where was the influence for art? How did you know? How did you get it? Was all there is latently in there? Um. I could tell him the father painted the house seven different colors, that there was something going on. Um, But

you know it wasn't. I grew up in the concept of which is some of the things that championed along the way was the skating, was the fact that hot right art, um, the the idea of the of the working class artist more than the I'm going to be an artist, you know, the the when Big Daddy Roth was making his start about cars for those people, I found a lot of things really and in fact, he did the cover for the Birthday Party Junk Guard album, of which he got really angry about because he finally

listened to it and said that how dare you put my art work on this album? Because they told him it was a rockabilly band. Um, good old days. You could hide that, okay. So your parents were fine with you going to art school? No, they hated the idea. They actually hid my sceptance until I quit the Commonwealth Bank after three days and then I said, oh this turned up so I would have never even gone there if I had stayed another week. Okay, And how did you pay for art school? I got a twenty eight

dollar a month living away from home allowance. I worked part time and I lived in a squad. Okay, so now you have it. You put on a gig we'll call a gig because you wanted the band to have the p A. Was that for like your arts? Was there? Was there a show? Did you charge admission? What was admission? I also produced a long form video for the entry and tried to make it installation peace kind of thing based on Kitel products, and called it ken Talent was

ken Tell's Show. I worked under alias is all the time. It was much more fun. Um. The first touring company I set up was Edwards Zimblis and syndicate Briebery Limited Um because I just thought that's better to work that way, and to the point where in nine and January eighty five when brought out Lou Reid and dealt with Eric Kranfeld, who was the Rolling Stones attorney as well as managing Lou, he was convinced that this twenty six year old or whatever it was at the time, that I worked for

Edward Zimbliss. And that was fine until he found out in Australia when he was telling the head of security that he'd had a meeting with Edward and John Miller. The head of security said, you know, he doesn't exist. So it was a good front because I was too young to be me. Okay, so you put on this concert, you made the video, you were having fun where you're

getting any traction? No, No, that's what I started. I had to move out of the friend's house and move home again for six months with my parents accepted de Selm carr Um. Then it just kind of went back into doing shows for people. There's more of an agent position because I knew how to do stuff, and that's when I started creating one off events I didn't like during much. I like one off events. What kind of

events were those? Uh? Um? The first birthday party shows were Birthday Party Love and Clowns Go Betweens at Paris Theater. Um the first time two parents foolishly put five thousand dollars in my bank account to so they get the pension better. Which a week later I was on a flight to London. UM stayed at Nick Squad, Nick Cave

Squat and Paddington in London. That was pretty good. Um. The third floor was stairs with missing so we had to use the ladder up that part and the taps were leaking out the sides a bit, but but it was good. Got a train up to Manchester, stayed on Marquee Smith's floor. I didn't realize he took a lot of speed. That's running away. He was talking all night. And then went to the Hassie Endo to meet UM to see a new Order plays like the sixth of a show. It was a free from members night, so

a new order free for members night. UM. And the weird thing was the connection with Nick kind of opened doors because when well, you're in our you're in our world. You know that's you. He's he we respect him. If he respects you, then you get the time. Um ended up securing the New Order tour by sculling a cocktail with Rob Britain because Bernard had ordered some blue cocktail backstage after the show and Rob said, here's this guy from Australia wants to come to Australia and said, Bernard said,

I thought we were going to South America. He said, well, you're gonna have to choose which one and burn and said we'll scull this cocktail and we'll go to Australia. And I thought he was joking, but then I sculled it and he said, okay, we're going to Australia. And I said the rubbull, can I come past tomorrow we'll work out the deal. He said, don't worry about the deal.

That's factory records. Yeah, that's factory records all the way through, which is kind of how became the Manchester specialist of Manchester Think. So a lot of these things were event driven in that. So the five thousand dollars your parents gave you, you said, I'm gonna use this to put on a show. He said, I gotta live and I told me not to use it for that kind of okay. And so but when you went to the UK, you in the back of your mind said, I want to do a show that the first time the UK yet Okay.

I clearly went there on the basis that they were acts that I wanted to see and I thought people needed to see, and I thought the traditional music industry he wasn't going to do it. Okay, So you secure this deal with New Water, Yeah, and the factories legendarily untogether. How long thereafter they actually show up in Australia Not that long after. It was November toward the fall before that,

and that did really well. Turned up. It was the sound guy didn't get through because he filled out his visa form wrong and the studio engineer was there, not Martin had the other studio engineer was there, did a terrible show at the Capital Theater because he kept saying I was looking for the rewind button. Is he never mixed live great help, totally top end sliced it, but his heads off. UM And then ten shows, so I got from like nine to of the first shows of

New Order in the world. Um came friends that created the process of trying to create the goal for me was to go, if they're in safe hands, if they feel her in safe hand, the money doesn't matter that much. And that was the foundation of what I wanted to go. You're in safe hands. I will back you up on anything. I need to back you up. I can't guarantee you're going to make a lot of money. Okay. So they came to Australia, they did ten gigs. Yeah, you make

money or lose money. Lost thirty dollars. Who's money kind of ours but it was borrowed. Um, So I stopped for a year, moved out of Sydney, moved down to Melbourne, shared a house with business partner of that time, Vivian Lee's. Eventually did the final convince the birthday party to come back to do a show. It's a series of shows that didn't do much more than break even. That was the end of the Birthday Party. Um, it was just hand to mouth. Did other things, but not class things.

Whose money was it? Oh, it's a friend of Vivian's who was a dope dealer environ. Okay, so we didn't want to lose You don't want to lose the money. But he had the money. It didn't really care that much? Okay, so now you're living hand to mouth. He got paid back how much later? Okay? So what happened in that year? How do you end up making the money back? Brought back John Cooper Clark through all the weirdest things to

pay a lot of money. They just cleaned up um single person again a heroin addict but kind of everything. Just to go back to New Order because at this point they're legendary when you bring necessarily, but when you when you bring them to Australia with the advent of their career, anybody, how do you why would people go to see him? Were they playing on the radio? What

would drive tickets? Sale? Us stuy division? And the music is great, the first album was sensational, right so, but they would have to be word of mouth for people to know to go oh yeah. But I had a lot of ways of promoting things as well, Like I did a Hunters and Collectors show at Sydney University Refectory that's sold out at tickets. Instead of announcing the tour of the usual way, I got a stamp made that said New Order on sale date and stamped everybody coming

in with that. So everybody at the event was stamped with the on sale announcement, which meant that the Capital Theater sold out in an hour when it happened, and we added extra days. But because the sound was so bad at the first one I returned, it didn't do very well. I wanted to do two shows, but then they said, we don't like playing the same venue twice.

They just make things up. Okay, remember how much ticket prices were on that first show fifteen dollars ninety Okay, so now you end up, Meggi, you moved to Melbourne, you end up making the money back. You do those shows. What happens after that? Just slowly picked myself up and started doing it again with it. No, you just go through a series of the violent fems. I was. We're going to basis that the it was much more mathematical

than what it sounds. The independent seen and the important record model where you're paying more for an imported vinyl album and a local president on the theory that it's a better quality. You've got to go if they're selling three thousand copies of an album through the independent stores, because I can ask them and they say, we've sold five copies of this Violent Fem's album here on impoard and you go. Most of them are in share houses.

That means it's got a much bigger reach. It's not in the charts, it's not there, but you know that the people are buying that are going to come to the show, and not only just them, but they will drag friends along. Um. If they're a social act that that you want to show off to your friends that they're great, then they will be your spokesperson as well. Plus a good relationship with Double J Radio before it

went to Triple J and became national. Um, there was the beginning of the street press movement that was really championing a lot of these things. That was the beginning of the hunger for information tree Internet that they wanted to consume more and so they consumed everything that was available. Okay, so that was your next big The Violent Fams were your next big thing. Yeah, okay, so the Violent Fams came. How many deeds did you do with them? About and

how they do solid at every date? Um? No few of a thousand people out front. So you meet Bummy Maw and then I took a manic to in America for four months and that's when things ramped up a little bit. Wait, wait, so you went as the tour manager in the States. I wanted somebody with an accent, makes some sound more international. This was when blister in the sun, when it's happening for the violent thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

So it was like a one thousand to two thousand see you know, okay, I guess one of post being Salt Lake City because I swear, okay, a little bit slower, the biggest shower of the American tour at that point in time, and three four whatever it was three for it was Salt Lake City. They saw about three thousand tickets in a big hole because they swear okay, because

it is very Gordon's a Christian okay, Methodist. Okay. Now, when they ask you to be the tour manager, because you've been a promoter before that you immediately say yes or you have to think about it. Well, the deal wasn't great. It was two dollars a week and I had to get my way there. But um I had an experience on road in America and so allowed me to understand America a lot more. That everyone's the same everywhere. If if you take the party to town, you'll find

all the widows. So you finished with violent fams. Then one came back. Then did the Low Read tour that was that successful? No, it covered. But um, I had a falling out with my business partner at the time Vivian and I parted ways. We're also managing a band. There's a kind of an experiment, I suppose in seeing what the pop world was like. But I'm talking because they were credible artists that I wanted to make pop music originally from rup best in an airport and things.

So they were friends all doing operates and philosophies and things like that, so it wasn't the dumb end of the spectrum. Um, but I had falling out, so I didn't time what was it falling out about? Um? I guess the simplest thing to say is that I I was meant to be the creative one and Vivian was meant to be the harder those businessman because who was doing no Masters in economics minash um. And then when somebody like Eric crime felt, I said, if we don't

get the money by this afternoon, we're going home. The rest the money before the first show. No, Vivian um uh imploded and my attitude was um I looked it up and came to the the suite and said, there's two flights out tonight, one at eight and one at ten. Which one do you want? And and you still won't get the money, And then there it went. I didn't mean that were right, but then he said, I never

want to see that guy again. So I had to kind of tell Vivian not to cause trouble, and so I had to take over the tour and do it that way, because in in that hard end of the world, especially with a no a New York heavyweight attorney who's the representing the rolling Stones and things, is that the they're bluff and bravado is if you don't stand up against it, especially when you know that you hadn't told Lou yet. Okay, at the end of the day, did he make his money? Did he get us paid? Yeah? Yeah,

but that was all on no tweaking things. Ok if you tweaked things, but at the end of the day, you lost money, no remain money. Okay, so you know ar made but I made money, like by selling the choir seats behind Lou read in Perth on a fifty fifty cash deal with the manager. Never saw the money. I do deals with the sound and lights crew, saying if you can cut the lights down a bit, I'll give you half the money back. Do you want to double up in rooms, I'll give you half the room.

Did you give them the money back? Yeah? Okay, So the louse ain't been paid in two months. Okay, so the lou Read tour ends. Where does that leave you? Just in a world of start again? And what was that? Well? I was managing the band I'm talking for a while and I managed time Kate Sobrano when the band broke up. Um at the same time ended up starting up a festival in Melbourne called the Melbourne Melbourne Music Show, which ended up being a bicentennial thing for Jen eight at

the Melbourne Showgrounds. And what was the skill there? Um? The scale was kind of weird. They wanted to be ten days long and I wanted to be one weekend. They tried to drag it out to that. We had a big power meeting with everybody at the table, Hugodynsky's and couples and everybody who is anybody at the time, and I was saying, oh yeah, I could get you too,

and I could get this, and I could get that. No, it's with the Victorian government and Irvan Rockman, which doesn't mean anything to you, but I know he had the Rockman Hotel and he used to be the Lord Mayor of Melbourne. He was the chairman of it and said I need to be the chairman of this because my name's Rockman Um. And it was all fun except that the polem. Once I said, none of these people get along. No one's going to give their act to someone else

to do this. So I became the like the talent director of it, and I handled so his works up seminars schools, talking about pretty big numbers, like a thousand people in some of them during the day and at night. Had had the music and I had skating in and all that sort of stuff with it all on like a four hundred thousand dollar budget with a free venue. That was it. I got Nick Cave and got go Betweens down, I've got the Divinyls just generally friends I could ring up and trying to say can you want

to do this? And then they stuffed it up at the end by running out of money and taking two and fifty dollars off the government Health Department to making it a no smoking, no drinking music festival, which of course then stopped the rest of any sales that might have happened. Uh. And that's what I got sick of it and just said, oh, I'm going to do my own thing one day, okay. So it was the government's money the four yeah, yeah, yeah, paid twenty tho dollars okay.

So that that please? And that's just success. No find it right? So are you now intrigued the I want to do festivals. I always wanted to do an event and I don't like the term festival. I like the Chilip Festival, but I don't like rock festivals as such. Um, if it's if it's an event, that it has a wider parameter than being the festival. So that was always the dream. Yet, okay, so you do this thing from Melbourne?

What's your next up? Uh? Then I decided to drop out of managing anybody, moved back to Sydney because I'm still a moment at that point in time, and by then would patch things up with Vivian. And when I'm going back to Sydney is in Melbourne where we should start the touring company again. So it was three reasonably healthy to have a three years break from each other at any rate on that point, because that was tough

enough as it was. And then it just went back to back to back to back, starting with Jesus Marriage I and Parkes returning new Order. Um, Deborah Harry, no smaller things that I'm up john Stone Rose is long the way all that kind of like about six two is a year. They never have a laps, Okay, So you gave up management because it's really unrewarding. Of course if you deal with these people, the ungrateful and you don't make any money to boot, No, it's like a

license to starve. Yeah, okay, getting back to that, I've managed like eight acts of the whole time, and every time I've quit, right, So I don't have a good track record and management in that way. This guy, that's it. I'm out of here. Okay. So were you now known as the alternative promoter? I was alternative promoter the okay? And then who was your competition if any, um, some smaller promoters, people like Tim Pittman, not many, not really, It's like it was more like a we had some

good international agent friends. Um, they understood us. We had we just had supporters and I just want to send their act down with somebody that could trust. It's a long way. And at this point you're making money, yeah, making very good money. Then Billy Bragg was a big winner. Some of the scenes ago Billy Bragg, who have thought he was going to sell out five two thousand theaters in Sydney. He sold that many. Really I have sold that more. Okay, So you continue to do this like

six tours a year until what uh? I was trying to get the festival together because I don't know what I'm taking an event together at any rate based on what I did right in and get rid of the things that were done wrong. We'd had a massive tour of the Violent Firms in nine where they got seven thousand people at one show at Fisherman's Wharf on the Gold Coast, which is pretty out there. We'd do two

nights at Selena's which held two a half thousand. There'd be fus around the corner because they still had a door ticketing situation from a lot of it all hard tickets, so you'd only sell half maybe more in advance. The things I learned from it were that if you'd sell out at two and a half thousand capacity venue License Venue in Sydney, that the main act goes on at midnight, no one turns up to eleven thirty because it's cheaper to drink at the local pub. So that's when I

started to pull the show together. Then Lollapaloosa got announced for for the August and I went our ship. You know, I'm going to have to pull my socks up here and get this going now, otherwise the horse is going to bolt. The Violent Femins were scheduled to come back. I knew they were too big for some of the stages, Like as an act, they were too big for some of the stages. You know, they're fragile because when I put when I put them on, when I wrote at Milwaukee,

it's Summerfest and it was a big stage there. I ended up taking all the furniture out of the house and setting it up on stage, so the couch and the TV and the fridge and wives and friends were just sitting on stage during the show. This is its summer Fest. Summerfest. Yeah, this was That's the legendary like ten d event was I learned a bit of that. I learned a lot of that. Okay, that was when

you were the rude Manager of the Year. But they're from Milwaukee, so I was there for the whole ten days. So in excess with supporting the go goes, um UH had to talk to R. E. M. Because they were thinking that Violet Fans and R. E. M were the two acts at that point in time that we're going somewhere um and I just understood all the sound spill aspects of it, that you could have jazz pointing that way and ballroom dancing or blues pointing the other way.

And it was kind of like the principle of it was, as I said, is that you do the Easter show it's called here or the Royal Agricultural Show and just get rid of the animals and put bands in. And that was pretty much the simplest thing to do. Because those venues were wide elephants um, they were a lot of governments wanting to develop them because it was an

obsolete thing of having a rural show there. So in Melbourne and in fact both sides of the political party were to redevelop the Flemington showgrounds kind of by us upset in the apple cart. The venues were kept um and so no longer shot it was is that then the violent fms just trust me whatever I tell him that I was doing. So I just told him this is what I'm doing. Um. And then because I did get asked to manage them, and I didn't want to manage them because I didn't want to live in America.

Of course, you know how much fun management is, um, and I thought that will stop me from doing other things. So it was working with them as more as a managerial than a promoter role, saying this is what you're doing. Um. It started off as a four or five band bill. I had to explain it just a little bit slower. While the blues announcements, the violent fems sell out business. You then in your mind stake we're going to go

to these agricultural venues. You just put that together. Yeah, and how okay, but there's only one in Sydney to start with. Okay, so the one in Sydney, what would be theoretical capacity? Uh? Well, A beautiful thing about the showgrounds these places is they have no theoretical capacity, um, which is what I've said many times. What I thank God it was me um because we utilize the horn

and Previnion, which had a capacity of six thousand. We utilize some outdoor areas to put some extra stages in, put a big skate ramp, try and find some decent restaurants to put some reasonable food in. UM sorted out to deal with the venue that was I'll take the door, I'll take the merchandise. UM, we'll just pay a flat fee. You take the bar. Let's just do that. Well, how about the restaurants who's gonna They're gonna keep their own money just for sake, they keep the fast food money.

I would run as a kind of a lost basis the quality food a restaurant and said, do you want to come down to a festival, even if it's Laurie's Vegetarian or whatever it could trying to at jar and food in I had clinton walk of a friend who was riding for Rolling Stones set up a chili store because he made good chili. UM and and that was it. There was no backstage and cility structure anything with it. So that the process came about by really going if I can just do the horn and pavilion with a

six band bill and run it longer. Then the pressure won't be all on the violent fans that they've gotten too big or whatever. Okay, and in terms how many people did you need to sell tickets to to break even? Well, they kept changing because band's kept bringing me, until I ended up with twenty one acts and three stages. I go all all right, okay, I can find a spot for you. And but they didn't know what a festival was. I'm signing back to Churn Festival. They didn't know how

a festival work. I didn't know what it was. And the whole principle of the Australian probably the same in a national music scene, is that you don't play Beneathan act that's smaller than you. No, you've fought a hard road to get that spot. And so certain bands would go but they didn't understand three stages, so no big, small medium dang. So I'm going to friends going no, we won't play before that band on the second stage, and I go, but that means you'll be playing against Nirvana.

That doesn't matter, Okay, it mattered. Um So this whole idea that like with Nirvana in there and Stranger, you're the indie played after them if I didn't care where they played. This is before they broke big well thore Nobe one in the world the week. Okay, so your four days earlier there in countries. Okay, So you've had a very fortunate booking the budget for this. Whose money is this now? It's always been my money. Okay, our money.

My money doesn't make it giff in your heart. You say this is gonna work, or you say, yeah, I'm gonna throw it up against the wall. Oh, I knew it would work. I knew it to work. I knew it had sell out. The main problem because the violent firms are already that strong that they could do that. For an actual fact. I used to complain about it because because Nirvana became on the show, because Stephen Pavlovich

is the friend was bringing them out. Um, I said, what they like to play on the show, said, I'll check with them. He said, no, Nevana loved the fems. That would be great. Now they've played the Phoenician Club a few nights before. It was a bit of chaos. Thousand capacity club of Phoenicians. I don't know where the Phoenicians live nowadays, but then right, that's the uh. It was all kind of who cares? Okay, so the dates play. Is it chaos up to the last minute or is

it is it pretty much go according to plan? Well, you find out things you don't organize. I mean, I hadn't had any sleep because I realized I realized they hadn't put up fences, so I had to start putting up fences during the night. Not luckily, I found two people in a tree at about two o'clock in the morning trying to get in for free. And I had gave him the choice of helping me put the fences up or leaving. So you want to put the fences up to keep our friends out so they can't get in,

or we have to leave? And I said yeah, So they chose to put the fences up with me. Um. I got through it. It was fine. The exciting thing was is that ten o'clock in the morning there's two or three thousand people out front. The main horror I had was what happens if they don't turn up till five in the afternoon or six tickets? Had you thought? I sold fifty two tickets the first day with violent Fences and Nirvana on the bill, and I kept adding bands because it was a ten week campaign and I

sent oh well fifty two tickets. I guess they don't know what it is um and still very much. And then eventually as it started to click, uh, then it just started to ramp up. And then when it ramped up to I think the ten days out, it's all like six d and fifty tickets on that day and would have probably gone to thirty thousand if it had had it. Okay, So ultimately it gets dark, everybody shows up, no, no,

At nine am they all turned up. I think, so there're two thousand A yeah, yeah, yeah, but you're worth it. But then by the guy at time, the guy's time to ten thirty, it was it was everyone was there, so just a question of getting everybody in. By midday, everybody was in, okay. Was there an issue of over capacity only with Namana, which I did complain about because I had to stop selling tickets because Navanah got too popular.

If I could have balanced it out more, I could have made more sense of it when you've got one started, So we stopped it at nine and a half when I wanted to go to ten. So i've also which of course then I had to renegotiate the deal because Nirvana confirmed for five thousand dollars um, so I changed that to four dollars ahead, so they got right thirty eight thousand dollars. So because it was unfair the deep, well, that's rock and roll. The deal is never the deal. No,

it was. They were going to do it, but I just thought, okay, well the d please mega success. Yeah, and was it called Big Day Out. It was originally called ken Fest. I booked everybody on ken Fest. I didn't have a name, and then first Artworks ken Fest, Richard Aland was doing Mambo worked with me on and a lot of this stuff. Because a friend of dare,

I thought you weren't a self promoter, huh. I thought it was gonna be ken Fest, right, yeah, But that wasn't That was just the I didn't want to call it something that was obviously going to be wrong later, so it was something that was obviously wrong now, and then eventually had to go with the Big Day Out, the idea that it's mine but um And that was partly to do with the fact that I'm worried that people won't turn up early. So that was the basis

behind that, is to go it's a day out. It's not no something that says it's cool to turn up at eight o'clock and miss most of the things. Um. And that really worked. It worked really well. Um And what can I say it? Um? It all held together. It was madness, it was dangerous. Um. You could drive a truck through the middle of it when Nevada were on no without even having to open your eyes. Wouldn't run over anybody because everybody was either in or trying

to get in. Um. And and that success created a few more problems for me, which were well the mainstream industry, because I've never considered myself part of the music industry for a start. I can't stand the term industry. Always see that and lawyers get practice my music practice. Um. The is that the money people will go, we need one of those. That's the ultimate problem with success. We need a Nevana, we need a festival like this, we

need this. We can't have this scene. So they want somebody else doing a work to build a scene up and then they can cannibalize it after that. So at the same time, Triple J Radio is about to go national, which means that they would be lowering their profile in Sydney, so an actual factor. It was only one off event.

Next time it might not get much profile. And also at the same time, we're a touring company now, we didn't know we might have toured people on the road on a big tour that that would be one act and maybe a support act. But it's a big step up to say, twenty people on the road, um. And

the infrastructure and the trucking and the budgeting um. So I did all the budgets m through in a five percent contingency for theft as I figured, once you get to that point, we're going to steal everything because it's not like the corner Shop anymore. It didn't happen that much, but it started to happen a bit um and you just find that it was organic. But it was almost it was kind of like organic on speed. It was like it was all logical, it was all natural. That's

the way it went. No, you go, I'm trying to put this party together now, and the party is not for the audience. The parties for the band and so so moving into say it was like I really want to get Iggy Pop back out because the tour he did with Frontier was stupid. It was supporting Jimmy Barnes, did some pub shows, went home halfway through it with a nervous breakdown, had a book for eight shows a week. It wasn't fun, so reached out for Eggy to do

this UM. At the same time, we already basically had Sonic Youth ready to go UM and then mc harvey called me and said, don't you don't you think you need a well dressed, good looking band on the show. And I didn't know what he meant, so went, oh, you meant the Bad Seeds you basically you know? He said yeah, he said, oh okay, because they love Diggie. So then this system of no coming back to Nevana likes the violent fems, is that the artist really built

the lineup. They'd say, why didn't gets on, and so they'll bring them for you and then they could hang out with their mates. So that became the cornerstone if this. Everybody knew what everybody was getting paid. There was no big deal. It was like there were some overages for the top acts, rest of them on flat fees. It was a question to keeping the guarantees down. Uh. It just kind of held together on the basis that it was if it works out, well, you will give me

some more money, Okay, A couple of things. So the first year you do the one show. Next it's the following year that you do multiple shows. Yeah, how many shows? The following went to four? Okay, and now it's up and running. Yeah, and you continue to do it for year after year after year, not necessarily every year, as I don't know we're going to do it again. Um. It grew pretty quick. It became the alternative scene kind

of became the mainstream. The record labels gobbled up the independent labels so they could get the main ax cheap without paying them. Don't why buy the app when you can buy the label for the same price and then just not put the other artists out. A bit of a sad moment. Um, no offspring goes off to mainstream land and other people don't, and so it started to fracture a bit already with it. The the the the

strengths of the show. It seemed to be for me was just trying to produce as a bringing of the tribes together, so that I didn't know much difference between techno and metal because it had the same bpm to a lot of extent, so exposed metal bands to techno and as it's exposed techno people to metal people. And they were just talking stuff all day, swapping numbers. No had fear Factory asking later on fear Factory asking Prodigy

how do they get their drum sounds? So it's like this weird integration of what's happening backstage and when you're taking it on the road. Uh, that it's not possible to do that on a one off event, it's not possible to do it on a three day camp out. Is that the interaction of the artists really only happened on their days off. We organized bull games, boats now bowling. It was that that was the thing that and if the bands wanted to play an extra ten nights to

the fans, they could. Okay, But you talked earlier about somebody establishes the paradigm and the vultures come in after. So to what degree were people competing into Why did you not get run off by the usual suspects? Um they didn't know what they're doing? Did they try? I tried? I tried a few times. I tried then, in which I said, was a bit of a mistake because they'd left it too long, so I was surprised about UM.

And it was a really good lineup, but it was the three Michaels, Mac, Michael Dnsky, Michael Copple and they did Alternative Nation, thinking this will work. Great line up except a few problems, like they had the Chili Peppers on who had canceled, but they kept promoting it for two weeks like they were on, switched them with nine inch nails ten days out, UM Flaming Lips and there was a lot of good bands on, but it was out at right out in the western suburbs. It didn't

kind of sound right. It wasn't quite a marketed right. I tried to do it with the Triple M commercial radio station, thinking will alternatives crossed over in the mainstream now, so that'll be fine. They did some ridiculous things like like UM I used to put on the Artwork International Food Fair. They did it as a slight type of by mistake and called it a multinational food Fair, so we're joking about the McDonald's and KFC. UM. It just didn't gell right now? Did it hurt your business? And

it was a failure. I started to wear me down because the checkbooks were starting to come out, and so therefore what was initially a thing of going all we had to do in the initial stages that that was workout. We'd do a full tool prop for the act as if they were touring on their own, which we were well aware of how to do, would work out what

that would do. Then that would be the basis of the fee for the big day out of what we think they'd work at the net and allow them to add a few extra shows so that even if they performed in daylight, they could do their own nighttime show at a thousand capacity pub or or later on at the entertainment center of their big acts. So they've still got their fan base, they could still do their do our show. The record company can buy as many tickets as they want to that they've still got their own

spot in the sun. That also allowed for the other bands to go and see them, so they'd still have the same fun back stage from all the other bands with the day off coming to see them at their shows. Um uh. And then so ninety year that was a bit messy. That was kind of We've had a really ugly, highly successful, very ugly year and where it pushed the envelope a little bit too hard. Had Ministry headlining and Courtney and uh silver chair had just broken, which thanks Owen.

And they played the skate stage because it was great to be on the skate stage little stage at a skate route next to it, and so but that was pandemonium. It was around the time of the pandemonium in the was was considered cool, like you go and do a show downtown l A in a comment park and ten thousand people had turned up and it was chaos. And eventually, you know, as there's the same guy's all it's all fun and a game. Still somebody loses an eye and

that became very precarious. So we had to start pulling back on that mayhem because it was heading to dangerous levels. Okay, now ultimately over this run you break up with Vivian once more. No, No, we just stopped. We just stopped in In We got through. Was really difficult because Stephen Pablovic had decided to do his own festival. He used his contacts because he was supplying some acts, which I

like to be inclusive with everybody. Anybody could bring an act in that to a manage it they'd promoted every act we ever put on a big day out. We put on our own tour manager. Well they had their own tour manager locally, because I didn't want to hear about problems afterwards, and I thought as a touring company we'd automatically like normally I would have been the tour manager and things with it. But everybody was there and so ninety six had ended up very difficult to put

the line up together. Um. I went with the strength of Australian Earnest and Steve and had a great lineup with food fighters and back and oh Beastie Boys and all of sets of stuff that we're going on and that we had an argument over one act and it was over raged against the machine and no one way or the other, um, and we ended up getting raged against the machine and they were on it in a

bit of the Nirvana spot. They're on it like six thirty, which was pretty good fun, especially when the police are got guns in the audience and yelling out the chant lines in fact, you don't do it, I won't do what you tell me, and the police are getting roughed up by the audience and you kind of go, this is getting bad, but it was a phenomenal show. But then I decided that the pressures of doing this, the the money train that's going on, um, it was wearing

away at me emotionally, physically. I had it in my head seven um and I wanted to end that chapter, which Vivian, for a better of worse agreed with it, so we could go back to a nine show and go with the farewell show. I'm not planning to do this again, regardless of what everybody think. I had no intention of doing it again. We were losing the Sydney venue because they were converting it into the Fox Studios.

They were building an Olympic precinct which was two years away. Um. Every council I spoke to said your show is too big, so we had no venue. I said, let's just call it. So I called it. And about a year later we tried another show with Prodigy to try and go more of a dance event. Chancel it because it wasn't really working, and then we had to look at the new show grounds and when all right, no, if I don't do it, somebody else is going to do it. It is when

you're billing. We did the Big Day Out at the Olympics side two years before the Olympics, so they were still building right up until then. So we were pretty much in the concrete jungle of it. Okay, after the Olympics, you continue to do it. Yeah, then it was then it was unstoppable. Okay, At what point is kenn out? I mean, is Vivian out? Um? Lots of times, probably just as many as me um the final out, because we had lots of outs along the way, like let's

not do this. It's like, I don't want to do that. You know, this is not coming together. It's it's it's it's ridiculous having the idea that everything you've earned your entire life has been put back on the table every year because if it goes wrong, you're out, like really out, which is no it can be unlimited. I mean literally every dollar you me was every year. Yeah, if you're honorable, if you pay your debts, you can warm your way

out of things. But if you're honorable, you're gonna pay everything. There's no other financial backers. There was never any other financial backers. In two thousand, Live Nation, which was clear channel did they more for I don't know, offered twenty million dollars for the show, and I said, why would I do that? Um? And then I told Michael Godnsky that about it a year or so later any um in public. He went down and he said, I just

can't do that. I'd have to take the money. So you had the respect thing of saying knocking back the money, But it was more like the control. I couldn't hand control over to if aaseless corporation because I knew it would die if that. For start, everybody has sold well if he's got doubled as soon as the agents knew it was owned by like right, we want twice as much money and you're not going to give any givebacks if it doesn't go. Yeah. So if you're an independent operator,

it's simply think if you're a corporate company. It's a different story to sing a song from McDonald's. It's a bit different to something else, isn't it. Um. So the end crunch really came for the for the Vivian was over it and I was over it, and we didn't have a break. I always wanted to have a break every five or six years, have a fellow year like Glastonbury. But he was set in his mind that if you stopped it once, you'll never be able to bring it

back again. You had your chance once, you can't do it nowadays there's so many competitors and yeah, he's right, and year he's wrong. Um, if it's taken away, yes the void might be filled. And if it's filled that much then we shouldn't bother to bring it back. But

if it isn't, we can. So the crunch came that going from six shows which was called six and out from to getting to the point with the next time around it's the four year straight after death and two thousand and one with it going through a full comonial after trying to book a lineup in September eleven, two thousand and one for the two thousand and to show all the metal bands canceled cowards. Um. Luckily we've got

convinced assertion systems are down to do it. Because the world trade downs went down and all that chaos theory going on. Um, it was just one thing after another that was becoming harder and more expensive and bigger and

everybody demanding more. At the same time. The everybody's starting the sources, apprentices people working with us setting up their own festivals realizing they really can't compete with the Big Day Out in that way, so they created their niche festivals, which meant that everybody they needed I had five stages that needed headliners for there was five different festivals that needed a headliner. So instead you want to be on stage four at the Big Day Out, or you want

to be a headliner on our festival. So we're being chipped away from the underneath. The mainstream wasn't causing any trouble. It was the new upswing that was wearing away at it. Uh, everybody who we said we can't repeat just went to our opposition. Well, you've been on three times, I can't

put you on a fourth time. Great, so the Chemical Brothers in our future festival, or Prodigies over it there, or or you know, Queens of the Stone Age go and play sound way because I've really done a Big Doubt three times, and so you're not delivering the show you'd like to deliver because you don't want to look like you're repeating yourself. At the same time, you're fueling your opposition. The crunch came for two thousand and UM.

The crunch was kind of happening in two thousand and eleven, and we managed to put on probably our strongest show ever, which sold out like six minutes, which was a bit different to fifty two tickets UM with no things like Nick Kave Branham and like on the green stage we see her playing before and no, and that's with Tool and Ramstein and the main stage with Iggy Pop. Before that, it was it was a really really massive line up. But by then people didn't even look at that anymore.

This went there's X amount of bands here and there's X amount of bands there. It's the same thing. It's like when people were buying entertainment by the meter. Um. Vivian was over it. I was over It was the twentieth year. We're trying to get Prince. We kept saying, if Mark Igher was going, you're trying to do a deal with the devil. I was aware of know how difficult it was. Uh are alternatives weren't great. I didn't want to do the show. Even said if we don't

do it now and they'll be doing it again. I was kind of okay with that. He wanted to push it forward. I said, I've got my backpack for Hawaii. Let me know if the shows on or not, And then we ended up settling on Kanye and Sound Garden, who had only recently been there for Splendor. I tried to get watched the Throne, but that was two two hundred and twenty person during party, jay Z and Kanye together that even Beyonce be Cheap wouldn't work for us at any rate, because it was two out there to

start with, and it just wasn't coming together. And and the point of it was, I said it, so if we go on, if we announced and go and say, we're going to have to go through with this, and and he either didn't hear that I didn't want any of that. As soon as it went on sale, he wanted me to come to Melment to cancel it. And we couldn't agree on what to do about that. And that's when we've been departed building. I had to work out what to do with everybody that was left, all

the staff. It's a problem when you hire your friends, you gotta fire with your friends. So foolishly to a certain point went forward, n went out for a dollar no with with his costs covered from where he spent so far. Unhappy or happy with that doesn't matter. Then C three became involved, we talked to the other players. UM I didn't really want to work with the competitors after all his years, not that I considered charge didn't scure anybody competitors. I never worked with Michael Cobble. No

offense Michael, but I never would. He's a bit too corporate for me. UM and that the the C three opportunity was there because of the relationship Lollapalus and a new Perry and who was trusted. And then we went into this weird world of trying to rebuild the Ark, but it didn't come together. It did, for one, it did the two thousand and third and Big Day Out was a really really fantastic lineup which I'm really happily

put together. Houston was incredible from C three. UM we got the right prices, we got the right acts that fell into place pretty well. It did a little bit over break even maybe a little bit more than that. UM No. I did two hundred and thirty thousand people over the six shows, the five shows in New Zealand, so it was two hundred thousand because we didn't do New Zealand that year. We should have, but we didn't.

UM no, that was There was some really difficult acts to get, you know, like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard to get you know. I really had to talk to people about about nurturing it and working out who else was on. It's like a dating game. It's like people, it's like gonna you're you're putting people in a camper van for a long ride, so they're gonna like the people they're going to be in there. Um So that was all consensus and everybody thought that would be great,

that would be that, that would be great. That worked well. Um then um uh no, thanks to Peter minch Uh. He then sold Metallica to sound Wave, which I thought was just totally stupid because he's managing both acts. And then it was Metallica versus the Tili Peppers and kind of nobody won. Like he oversold the event for Unwave to the point where it was excruciating for everybody. Um Our sales, which should have been easily a clean sell out, no, ran a bit short. Sydney sold out right at fifty

five thousand. That was great, and then Sydney unfortunately had the hottest day ever an Australian record at forty seven point five degrees centigrade. I know you double it down too, right, um And then UM, so that was a bit of a ship fight. We nearly lost the show. I didn't know what to do. It's like the occupation health and safety standards nowadays, they don't write up about what to do if it's too hot, but they need to, UM, because it's that's an ongoing, real issue with climate change

and the realities of what we're dealing with. And then so we got through that, that was all fine, and then it just went from all over the shop. Um. Pearl Jam were interested in doing two thousand and fourteen. UM, Charlie James good friends. They were pretty expensive. But then we tried to put a lineup together that might work. Realizing I went, okay, Pearl Jam, A lot of people I know won't want to go because the Pearl Jam. I need to counteract that. How do we counteract that?

That side of it was coming together all right. We had some other great acts were involved in it. We had Kendrick Lamar locked in, we had various other start no Mackael Moore was in there too. It was all looking old and young at the same time. Then, because of the winter Olympics in Russia. They moved the Grammys onto the middle of our tour for one year, which meant six months out before we'd announced, anybody who wanted to go to the Grammys, I couldn't do our show.

So all of the cooler acts trim but they gone yeah, well okay, Drick went no whatever. Um So then the heart got pulled out of it and it didn't and fear bad decisions mine and it just didn't connect, and it was it was already out. And then the final icing on the cake was when the feedback from the Pearl Jam fans said, we're not going to go to the Citty Big day Out. We don't want to go and see him there. So even Pearl Jam was a negative because they fans didn't want to see Pearl Jam

at the big day out. Okay, so pretty simple. When C three came in, did you take some money off the table? No? No, non't no, no, Now it's fifty fifty So was there any eventing on the line all the time? Okay? So you played it out to the end. Other than doing the shows, you didn't get a big pay day selling. No, I paid a million dollars to go home by who I paid. I paid a minut exactly. So in retrospect, you wish you'd take the Live Nation money? Taking what taking the Live Nation money? No, no way,

wouldn't have lasted more than three years. Okay, So it ends are you when it does have this five years out? You're cool with it? What are you saying? And of course, oh when it when it's in, Oh, it's just business when it's the reality, is it it? It had no venues, it didn't own any property. It was it couldn't protect it's venues, even though I wrote contracts up decide they couldn't put other shows in a similar style. I said, you can't put two car shows in the same place.

Why not? You know, like you know the things going on. So when other promoters could use the same venue, I had the same cruise, the same security, the same middle management. It was just too many choices for people to narrow an experience. Okay. So it was business. It was over it probably It surprised me it lasted that long, okay. And would you say the festival business in Australia is healthy now? I don't think the New South Wales government's helping that very much. But I think it's healthy to

a level. It's it's it's healthy if you don't put your head over the fence. Okay, and you know what happens next you get punched. Have you outgrown it or are you still paying attention? And if there were an opportunity you'd get back in now. No, that's a time capsule. Um, there's much more interesting things in life doer than that. Because I said I went into the process more, is it a there's an artistic statement that needed to not lose money. They don't have any to lose, so I

couldn't lose money. It's a much easier way to do business. It's so because your meaning dollars said don't lose money, you're gonna lose it. Um. If you don't have any money to lose, but you have nothing, you got nothing to lose. You have to make money. Okay, but uh, you it was profitable enough over the run that you're set. Okay, I'm fine. I don't have any problems in life. I've done really well. Um. The real point of the issue is I feel like I'm always been more of an

educator than an entertainer. But yeah, but it's easy to educate people if you're entertaining them at the same time. Okay, So for the last five years, you've been on your own personal journey, or I suppose so I called it. I tried the Quentin Tarantino approach, which was which he did before kill Bill, which was to lie on the couch of his stone for a year, um, and then

he got up and did kill Bill. But then after the end of that year, I I thought, I'm going to have to change the story now, so I went into sabbatical no um, and then started to reconnect with what I think is important and not important um Um. I'm working on a more of a textbook, and it's an old term, an educational book in regards to large scyle events. This would be about what the textbook would be about what it's not necessarily how too, it's more like I'm trying to do it in two parts. So

one it's called the Nuts. Now that's called the Bolts. So there's two books. So because and that the bolts part of it is more to do with the the longer history of the process. Okay, but we're talking about music business and we're talking about festival. What you learned are you talking about the world at large both okay, so back to the Ryman Coliseum okay, and the fact that you've got to entertain the poor people that they'll

rise up and kill you. Okay. Now you started at the advent of the alternative era and you wrote it. So going back to what you said earlier about science, is it over? It's it's no more over than fashion's over. It's no more over than visual arts over. But the big bang moments if you look at the simple music hit a stole point until sampling, and then sampling kind of upset the hall Apple card um. And now you're at this weird point where you can put music on

now and you have no idea where it's from timeline. No, it just there's the boxes are. So if you don't know who it is or what it is is, say, have a list't to theirs and it could be from the seventies, it could be from last week. Um. That confuses the arts process. There's the timeline, the natural progression of it. I don't think there's I don't think there's any form of it being over, because it's been consumed

more than ever. But the problem I have with it is that music has a sense as a distraction from working on your computer is not the same as a experiential process of listening to music. And so do you still have a dream? Lots of nightmares? Let's pass but no, no, my nightmares? And when my best ideas got from? But is there something you need to achieve either personally or business wise artistic before you, you know, exit, there's a few things, but I probably I'm still in a personal

explanation of what's important. So I think that what is important? What have you? What have you learned? I've learned youve got to challenge yourself more than your capable of UM. You've got to work everything out in your head before somebody starts telling you you're wrong. You you know, I'm I'm a chess plan or to checkers plan. What does that mean? Okay? Long game? Okay, UM, You've there's a lot of things that need some nurturing that will be there.

But if it's if it's just entertainment, I'm not interested. What are you? What are you most proud of it? In your career? Shaking up the foundations UM, standing up for use, being able to be used, UM, Helping artists to grow in some case survive. Just let let them reach their full potential. Um there's a lot of things, but I don't think in terms of that are kind of you know, I was in a I was in a position I could do something that I did. Well.

You've been wonderful, Ken, you would We could go on forever, but this has been great to hear your history. Until next time, Ken West, thy good.