John Boyle

so much for having me. Yes, so we've done this before. We've done it to E d M Biz. We did it on the Summit series Ship. But going back, okay, you went to u c l A. Was your first gig doing snow Core and those other concert promotions. None of the first gig was booking shows at u c l A. And then I was in a band. You were in a band. I didn't know that. Um it was Leonard Skettern meets Guns and Roses. No wonder you love those? Of course I do. And what did you do?

You were the singer, know I was the drummer. You were the drummer, really and as the manager. Okay, although they always say the drummer is the business guy, so it makes sense yourself. So we did. We did quite well actually, and and then during college I started booking. We did quite well. How far did you get? Well? I mean we like tore it up and down. We toward the west, we toward the Western US and colleges. We were a college party band, really, so what was

a gig worth? Um? Not? It was worth a really good time on some parties. And that's kind of what it was about. I mean, what was it a grand fifte? No? No, we were getting up to like five grand shows. Okay, that's pretty good in case this uh business thing doesn't work out. Okay, so you did that and then you did shows it U c l A yeah, no, no. And then then that led to uh, ESPN launched the X Games and I got to book that initially, and then there was the US Open, a surfing, and then

there was just all these lifestyle events. I as you know, I'm from Lake Tahoe. Um, I grew up on skis. I was a competitive ski racer, as you know. We'll talk about this, I'm sure, and uh, and I fell into the surf skate snow scene at U c l A. I didn't really know. I grew up in Tahoe. I really didn't know what anything was anything as a blue collar kid. And then um, and then all of a sudden, the surf skate snow thing blows up. I find myself working with offspring and this is what this is like?

Um and uh and uh and yes nine two and then and then Kevin Lyman, you know, shortly thereafter launches the Warp Tour and so how were you involved with the Warp Tour? Well, well, as I was doing my shows, UM, I needed a real producer to produce them because I was just a kid, and Kevin came in and produced them. Um. And then when Kevin started the Warp Tour, he invited me to be his sponsorship and marketing guy, which I did.

Simultaneous to that, I got a phone call from Irving as Often and Steve Backer a Giant Record saying whatever it is you do, can you do for us? And you can do your side hustle, you do your other hustle on the side, um, which was at the time Warp Tour. And then and then um and then I moved from Giant Records to Virgin Records and launched Snow Corps. And then it's kind of been a you know, okay, but then you then you turned into a manager and

you managed Exhibit. Yes I did. I managed Exhibit. I managed Alien amp Farm, I managed quite a few rock bands. I spent a couple of years of sanctuary. I was there law before it was what you were at, the same guys running it, but you're doing that, and then it all came to a stop and you went for an m b A. It did everything kind of slowed down. Um. I was immune to the napster um wall that everybody

hit UM until a couple of years later. And then yeah, and then I stopped and I went back and got a a dual MBA from Colombia and the Hospital of Business at Berkeley. Um. Okay. So when you got that NBA, did you think you were going to come back to the music business. I kind of thought I wouldn't come back to the music business. But as um al Pacino or Marco Corleone says in The Godfather three, the more you try to get out, they pull you right back in.

And I got pulled right back in by another Italian named Pasquale Rotella. Right, so you helped pasqual with his deal with Live Nation. I was. I was very fortunate to help Pascal off this deal. Okay, So without making this whole podcast about you, that this is about you, I don't know what we're talking about. What is the status of the electronic music world today? Well, I think the status UM is for Insomniac is incredibly healthy. UM. You know, I think their saturation in the festival business

at large in North America and in Europe. UM. But the Juggernauts thrive and survive, right, UM, Why don't you just for our audience in case they're not including, just say what Insomniac does. UM. Insomniac runs the largest dance music festivals in the world around the world, and they are UM well Electric Daisy Carnival E d C in Vegas, the flagship version in Vegas does forty thousand people a day. It's the largest single weekend festival and certainly in North America,

maybe the world, I'm not quite sure. UM. And we've we've launched it UM in Brazil, Mexico, India, the UK, Japan. There's a big another Asian announcement coming. UM it's you know, it's it's been, it's it's been incredible being a part of this and so and I'm a rock guy. You know that. I know that. I know that. But we all you know our hip to what's coming down the pike, did you? Um? Although Pasqual I ran it him the other day and he told me you're getting into hip

hop too. Now yeah, no, no, so Insomniac is getting into hip hop. I mean, look, Pasqual is a genius. He's an absolute genius. He's a visionary. He is the number one, like he's the authority and dance music on the entire planet. And when he pulled me back in so to speak, five and a half years ago, I really didn't know what I was in for. Um and I couldn't be more grateful. Now you give good answers, um.

But you know, if you Pasqual has been in the business since like the early nineties for people, don't you know it's like the ten thousand hours thing, Wide Awake, since that's the company logo, Wide Awake since ninety three, right, And it's funny you sit with all those guys, you have stories, but you know, when it was the rave culture et cetera. But obviously there's been a peak, let's call it five four or five years ago, we still have that same peak. No, I I don't. I don't

think there was a peak. I think there was a plateau about two years ago. UM. And so where I really think the opportunity is now as in Asia. UM. I've been spending a lot of my time in Asia, South America, a lot of opportunity. But you got political instability, you've got currency challenges, you've got all it's still third world. That's why you need an NBA or ASIA. UM. Asia is where, by the way, we can talk about this,

like the music business across the board. Asia's the opportunity. Okay, but can we stop talking about me and talking about just a couple more questions. What is driving attendees at this point to electronic music festivals. Well, I think it's I don't think. I know it's it's the element of community, um.

And it's also the element of being accepted. Um. You know, other music festivals, UM, you kind of have to fit into a certain you know, just a certain style or certain niche right at at at dance music festivals and insomniac festivals in particular, you can be you and you are accepted and welcomed and that's it's it's it's really a beautiful thing. I mean like I feel like i've I've been a part of making the world a better

place for the last few years. And that's the hard thing to say, coming from dance music with all the negative press that it gets, but it's true. You let me ask you, what was your experience when you came to E d C. Well, they have to go back. I went to Hard Halloween the first time. Eric Kurtz, wh's a guy with Bill Silva now part of the

Live Nation Empire. He says, you have to come, you have to come, And it was USC where the now there's a big dorm, but there was a big open space and the funniest thing was running Two people said, we were at the football game at USC. You're not gonna believe what's going on and go. I was there, Okay. So it was a separate culture and it was fascinating going to E d C. I was just talking about it last night. The single thing that made the biggest

impression was the helicopter ride there. I know, I knew we were gonna get to the helicopter is for those who don't know, you know, because it's electronic music festival. You go, they got the pulsing lights and everything at the helicopter station. Then they weigh you, which is not encourage you. And it's an inherently frightening experience because not the company we used, but the other company that flies out of Vegas are the ones who crashed at the

Grand Canyon. So they walked the you know, helicopter to the takeoffs face and they go and on the way there, you were talking over the headphones and it was totally calm. When I left at like four thirty in the morning, I was with the guy from Live Nation Mexico and a guy from Brazil, and you're with the George from Ossessa in Mexico and Fernando from from Brazil. First of all, in Brazil, he was talking about how many bodyguards he

had and height. They passed out because it was so you know, early in the morning and late at night, depending on how you want to see it. They passed out within like fifteen minutes. It was just me and the pilot and what happened was nothing happens fast in the music business, or does it happen fast and for or thirty in the morning. So I'm bs and with a pilot while we're waiting to get who's gonna go on the ride with us? And he says he was

in the military. I'm feeling incredibly calm. The guy flew helicopters in the military. What could be better? But we talked long enough. He didn't fly helicopters in the military. Wasn't until he got out. He only been flying for two years. What I know about helicopters is if the rotator stops going, if the rotor stuff going, it just plunges. People tell me otherwise, whatever, So if there's a funk up, you die, whereas with a plane there's a good fighting chance.

So inherently there's some anxiety. Well, and I mean Bill Graham died exactly, and the uh Stevie Ray Vaughan died, and the CIA um the CIA exact died. I forget his name, but right, there's so many people, you know, the helicopter accidents. But going to the e d C itself, one thing they do not gonna you know, stroke you on insomniac. Once you get in, you don't have to pay anything else. Every other festival is nickel and dime me you. And then they had a spot where you

could get your phones charged. And it's almost like that old song too many Fish in the seat, Short ones, tall ones, big ones, small ones. All kinds of people were out and it was accepted and there was a lot of money spent that was unnecessary. What I mean by that. There were timed explosions at certain hours and fireworks and it made you feel like you were at something special. Of course, it's it's like, you know, the funny thing is, we live in a society where everything

gets pressed. So theoretically, if you want to Google, you can find out about anything. But because there's so much information, their secret worlds, and when you're at when you're out in the desert at this racetrack outside of Vegas, you really feel like everybody should come once just to see what the funk is going on here, because they really don't have any idea, and especially that all Coachella Lollapalooza,

they always cover them. Although The New York Times didn't send somebody to coach Hell at this point because they felt they weren't last year, they felt they weren't breaking any new ground musically, So there's a there's not as much news about these things. They used to with their experiences, and the millennials are about experiences. You have to go just see what's going on. Well, no, and uh, thank

you for coming. When you did come, it was I mean, like a d C is the biggest production on the planet. You saw it firsthand. There is, I've seen them all. There is no bigger production. And by the way, I see the cost structure that goes behind it, like it's the biggest production on the planet. Well, the funny thing is, you know you're at the race track and you see that many trailers. You know, you know it's a really

big operation. Not to mention the fact I've been to Indianapolis Motor Speedway, but I've never been to like a NASCAR track. Whenever you see the banks and it was there who talking we were hanging I was talking to afro Jack because everybody's hanging out is an interesting situation, right, everybody's there. No bit to your point, it's a two mile track, right, So the NASCAR tracks run between one and two miles. It's a two mile track. I mean it's a huge footprint. Um and you know what, it's

really a beautiful show. Hey, it's left stets. I thank you for your time. Thanks for listening to my inaugural podcast. Remember to subscribe on tune in, iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, but now it's time to switch gears, as promise. Thank god, let's stop talking about me. That's time for you to quiz me. All right. You know, I'm just gonna get a little crazy. The key is not to leave anything in the green room, so we do no preparation. I don't know what it sounds like.

I'm doing a TV show now. I don't know I'm gonna be hit with, but go for it. So let's be clear. I begged Bob. So. Bob and I first met in n at the what was then known as the Aspen Artist Development con Correct it's now known as Aspen Live, and Bob writes about this every single fucking year. It's a big part of your life, right, you know, so much of my social life is based on that, you know people. For those who don't know, you can google it Aspen Live. It's the antithesis of usual music festival.

There's no bands and it is an Aspen and to go skiing. And some people think it's a circle jerk, but the converse happens. Because there's no bands. You go skiing, you really get to know people. That's how I know John. And the key point we were in the Buffalo Club and he asked for John is like the Tumbler and the cat Skills and he's asking for predictions. I don't even know what that means, but whatever, he's the guy who makes every who makes everything happen. I mean the

straw that stirs the drink. That's that's something. In addition, that's what Reggie Jackson said when he was at the Yankees. But I don't want to mix the metaphors here. At the Cats Skills and most of those hotels are closed, they had a guy who ran around called the Tumbler,

who always made activities spontaneously. So you set up an asked for predictions, and you had given me ship before that, and I said, and I said, within twelve minutes Geffen Record, twelve minutes, twelve months Geffen Records would close, which it did. But that was one thing. But that's how we met well. And I didn't know you at the time, and and um, I look at I look at Bob as like my older brother from another mother. He's not enough to be

my dad. Um, he would be my older brother. And I don't have an older brothers or any brothers at all. Um um and uh and And we were both part of that first Aspen conference, right, very involved, absolutely right. And I think I hosted, I was the MC of the dinner or something. And and I think I called you, and I've I've admitted to this. Um. I think I called you the annoying bald guy. It was that or worse. It was definitely a put out. I've blocked it from

my memory, but I remember the insult. So I apologize to you for probably the hundredth time here. Well, you know, I've had a lot of psychotherapy at this point. You know, people think that I'm a guy who's very honest, and when you were in the music business, you are very honest. You're in the music business long enough, you know there's the surface and the layer beneath the surface, and people think if you're intense on the surface, you ust to

be a real motherfucker underneath. But I am who I am, So therefore people may be thrown off guarded first, but then they realized, you know, there's no artifice underneath it. So ultimately you know this is me. Yeah, and you know, um, I think so. So Bob and I have have um we've we've done some interviews together a couple of times, a few different things. And what I usually tell everybody out of the gate is this guy has one badass

motherfucking skier, like he fucking rips. And by the way, this is coming from a guy who grew up in Tahoe and was the Junior olympiad. So Bob is a really um not that you I did win all the ski races in the first few years, but you are really really good. And I think that was something that brought us together. Absolutely our roots in the mountains. Our roots are in the mountains. So all right, so let's let's talk about you. Connecticut, right right. I grew up

a Connecticut in the suburbs Afield, Connecticut. That's fifty miles from New York City. Why that's important is that's New York media, New York Radio, New York television. At the time, it was rare for someone to commute to New York from Fairfield. But now it's more common, but my mother was a real cultural vulture. We were constantly going in to see plays, musicals. We would go with school. But staying with what I said earlier, we had the three

networks plus three independent stations. The only place that had more independent television stations West Los Angeles with four, and of course we had multiple A M radio stations, certainly seventy seven. We had Cousin Brucy, who's now on the

satellite again. I was a big Cousin Brucy fan. And we had Scott Muni number one in the nation, the Scott Munich Show, who flipped over to FM Okay and FM Underground radio started in San Francisco in nineteen sixty seven, one could say nineteen sixty six with Tom Donahue, and started in New York in nineteen seventy seven WO R F M, and it had all at Scott Muny who eventually went to w n e W. But I was there, being in the New York radio market, we could get

all those stations, so I heard all those records. So what was the what was the moment? What was the moment you knew that music was your calling or did you not know because you went and got a you you went, you're an attorney. Many people don't know that I am an attorney. But we're getting ahead of the story. You know, generations are changing and people are rewriting history. Okay, people say that, oh, the Beatles filled a vacuum after JFK got shot like everybody else my age. I certainly

remember where I was when JFK got shot. I was at the bowling Alley. Okay, we were watching it on TV. But the Beatles were just a revolution in sound. It was. They didn't start to play the record so right after Christmas because radio stations locked their playlists over Christmas. It was within twenty four hours. Okay, everybody started to grow the here immediately, everybody got a guitar at that time. Before that was folk music. We haven't had hooting any

shows on television. And I had learned to play a nylon string guitar, but it wasn't until after the Beatles that I got an electric guitar. It was you never talked about this, Well, here we have it, and I was a shifty guitar player. Let me be very clear. I mean it's funny because you listen to the radio and they play some of these records. Some of these songs are incredibly easy to play, like Gloria It's three uh. Van Morrison's song made uh popular in America. My Shadows

of the Night um and uh um. Dirty Water that was another easy one. But I had my friend Mark and my Mark. My friend Mark, remember he traded his I got an e S three thirty five and we're playing in his bedroom one day and he said, well, let's change keys, and that's when I knew I was done. I was also embarrassed. I was with a guy who still plays in bands, and they were gonna get gigs,

and I felt like I was not good enough. But I subsequently got a very I worked for a summer and I bought an expensive acoustic guitar, which my mother put in the crawl space and has some mold on it now Gibbs I still have it. They say they'd fix it at Gibbs Back whatever the gifts, you know, they said they would fix it. And it was really good, and I played a little bit first year of college, but college was so disorienting. After living in the suburbs,

I went to college in Vermont. I did not play after that university, No, I went to Middlebury College, which is a half hour from so going to college. Um, I I could have gone to Middlebury Columbia. I didn't go to Columbia primarily because a guy had been on a summer program with wanted to rule with me, and I didn't want to ruin with them, and I know I would get out of it. So if I go to Middlebury, I don't have to worry about it. The

middle Berries were really the skiing kicked in right. No, no, um, if you want to talk skiing for a minute, I grew up, as I said, connected when you still used to snow in Connecticut. And my friend Bobby Hickey used to ski and he let me try his skis, and I convinced myself convinced my parents to buy me skis. It was the skis bindings and polls for ten dollars. And we used to ski in Bobby Hicky's backyard with a vertical drop of maybe twenty five Then then you

walk back up. Of course, you walk back up and you have the floodlight you see at night whatever. And in the days of flannel line jeans, So in sixth grade, Mr Conley, he showed a thirty minute promotional video from Mount Snow and I could, which is a large ski area in southern Vermont. I've been there. You've been there, must have been like for work. It was it say, if you can ski in the East, there's no reasons, so it certainly isn't. But it's a large skier in Vermont.

I want to put Mount Snow down. But we went. My family got hooked, and then we rented a house in Vermont, and then we bought a house in Manchester, Vermont, and I was skiing thirty five to fifty days a year before I went to Middlebury. Yes, I went to It was either both Dartmouth and Middlebury have their own ski areas, but Dartmouth has a lower altitude and is in New Hampshire. And when I applied to college, Dartmouth was not scheduled to go co ed for a number

of years. And I went to Middlebury it was it's still very beautiful campus and they have their own ski area and I could go skiing every day, which I did. The funny thing is of everything that happened to me in college, okay, the one thing I did in college was ski That's the one thing I still do forget what of courses I took. The people are hong with whatever. So I did get something out of college. And then I lived in Utah for a couple of minutes, starving

on the free style UH ski circuit. I mean the first year I was in It's funny. I'm talking about skiing as the post to what I might have happened in college. First year I was in Vermont was one of the great years. Ever. By the way, you're where you're you're wearing a veil vest, So you know it's funny because when I lived in Utah, you pooh pooed veil.

A good friend of mine was this guy who Scott brooks Bank, who was the winner of the UH Freestyle Championship, and he had a house in Utah and my friend lived there, so is there all the time. And he come came from veil. I said, veil, it's flat. They actually have one very steep bump run called high Line, which he trained on. But I used to pooh pooh veil.

Then I got involved with my girlfriend twelve years ago, and since the seventies they have a condo in the closest building to the listed veil and I'm getting Knowlted. Now I don't poop poo veil so much. But after grad the next three years I was in college, it was very bad snow years before many skier he has had um snow guns. And I went to live in Utah. I got a job at the gold Mine. Yes, I got a job right out of college. You moved to Utah. I mean, let's be very clear. It was a totally

different world from today. There was a middle class. Nobody I know went straight after college. If there were recruiters on campus, I certainly didn't meet with them. And I signed up for the l s a T because my father wanted me to take it. And my friends knocked on the door the night before said you're not gonna take that, are you. Let's go to Montreal, so we did. I didn't take it. So I went to Yes, of

course to do what Ski. No. We it was just to do something for that day, Okay, But I didn't take the l s a T. And going to Middlebury Middlebury. Now Middlebury has got in subtraction because they had a big protest there last spring. But before that people would say Middlebury is at some place in Connecticut. No one knew Middlebury College except in ski areas. It's because it's the best college with a ski area. Okay, it's a dart miss is a thing unto itself. But everywhere you go,

every skied the people from Middlebury. And I lined up a job at the gold Miner's daughter. Best job you can get being a waiter. You never have to work when the lifts are open. And I got it because I went to Middlebury. But I came to l A. I worked in a sporting goods store. Uh, it no longer exists as Hollywood and Highland and Star sporting goods

and all the stars. Just coming out of conversation, this was just with Jack Nicholson, just before he went to film One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and he was so cool, and I worked different months. The guy wanted to give me the store. I was waiting to quick to go back to Utah. Then to a freak accident, I broke my leg. I went skiing. It's snow summit. I mean, this is a ridiculous story. Should snow summits?

Just for those people don't know, these are ski areas in a very high altitude within two hours of l A the car I went in literally burned up, and and the only skis I had were very long skis and short skis, and I took the short skis, feeling that no one would have a ski rack, but the bindings would not get tight enough. The bindings came off at ten ft in mid air and I landed and my leg was broken, and so I missed my job in Utah. I took the l s A t and I end up getting a job at Snowburg. To the

place still exists. Alton Snowburg are now connected the right next to each other, little Cotwood Canyon, and at some place called the bird Feeder, which is right by the tram, where you sell hot talks, and I would curry favor with people by giving them large ice cream cones. I did not know that at the time Snowbourg was the

epicenter of freestyle skiing. Everybody would come and then I mean, what happened was I was waiting for the tram very late in the season and I missed then ski till the end of January because I broke my leg in the beginning of November. And these guys, this guy ran into said, oh, all the freestyles were going to Mammoth and they came in for ice cream cones, which they would every day, and you get big scoops, big scoops huge and they said, yes, we're going to uh Mammoth

for a month. And they said, come to this frat house. We're gonna have a meeting on the University of Utah campus. And I went there on a snowy night where they were playing physical graffiti, and uh, I gave him my fifty bucks. They went to bang the bumps at Heavenly Valley. If you really know, skiing the barrel in Heavenly Valley is a big thing. Nobody had any money, said. They used acetone to peel off the tickets for people's wickets

and then use those tickets, and um, I got. I stayed up all night the night before I went to Reno, where I had to go to the Hard Ski Factory, exchanged some skis and listening to physical Graffiti, and I got stopped for speeding because that was after they lowered the speed limit. There didn't used to be a speed limit in Nevada. That was fifteen dollars. I was really really scrape and I went to the Heart Ski Factory and got some new skis and then drove to Mammoth.

It's a really beautiful drive. People have no idea that you think of mountains as being condo in Utah, as they say, But if you drive from Reno the back road, uh the tackside of Yosemite, it's beautiful. And I got to Mammoth a little early. The gig was we were gonna meet at the stop side a nude. I didn't even really know these people, and I drove up the access road and that was the first time I heard tangled up in Blue by uh Bob Dylan, and I

met these guys at the stop side. I didn't think I could stay, didn't have enough money, and I called my parents deciding whether I could stay, and I got the thirty five dollar so I could stay on two dollars and thirty cents a day. There was a spring pass and thirty cents a day. Okay, it was a spring pass you could buy for fifty bucks and everybody. I still have contact with those people. That was the best month of our lives. Literally in the right about

still regular. That's how I really I got back into led Up and listen to the physical graffiti every day. I was really into them in the beginning, but ten years gone, which I loved, and then I decided I would compete on the freestyle circuit. So we can go back. We can go back to to your history because I want to go back there. But can we not agree that led Zeppelin is the greatest band that ever walked the face of the earth. I'm would as you say

something different than we used saying college. Somebody said to be in college, name a better record than Who's Next? Now you might be able to namber led Zeppelin is a unique thing. What I say, people say, when you go to a desert island, what would you take? I said, I take Joni Mitchell, Blue and a C d C Back in Black, So certainly leads up. One is great, although I pretty much stop. Although I certainly have all the records I thought presence was. You know, the records

after physical Graffiti were a disappointment. But those records are great. I mean one too, or well one see like right when I see you know your time is gonna come? You know, lion cheating hurting. I say that to myself when I ski that and and uh little feats easy to slip, but Just to go back to your earlier question,

my mother was a culture vulture in our family. My father used to always say, well, we don't have the big house because it's the house that we moved into six months after I was born, and my mother only sold it ten years ago. And uh, but there was an unlimited amount of money for cultural expeditions. If I want to go to the movies, my mother really she would go to these jew uh Judith Chris movie weekends. There was always money for movies. There was always money

for concerts. She would hit me to something. She said, oh Country Joe in the Fish, I see their new haven, and I would get tickets. So yes, I was very into it before you know. Uh, he knew very early on this was part of you, right. And as I say, you know, if I go on about this, we don't have time to go on. You know, there's a lot

of important history elements. Okay. Certainly, when I got to college, I had more records than anybody else, and therefore I curried favor with all the upper classmen, and I had two radio shows. But then when my generation took over, they were jealous and I got demoted. I could be on once every other week, and I said, forget it. So then I taught right. And then I taught a course about you know, in Middlebury they have the four

one four system. You take one course intensively in the winter, and I convince the administration to let me teach a story about rock music, and um, there's a lot of elements that come together here. I was in You had to take an English course that was the one required course other than your major, and I never did this again. I called the professor and asked him whether I could

do something creative. I did, and I got an A. In Middlebury, nobody got an A. And I called my mother from the pay phone and I said, I'm gonna be a writer, and she laughed, okay. So I felt like, okay, I graduate from college either I'm gonna move to school. Absolutely, I graduated from college. That's the first first couple of weeks of college. But then, just to be very clear, I mean, you know, I took the creative writing course. This is two and the guy wrote c stories unsuccessfully

and you go to Middlebury's small school. There was only one creative writing teacher, and he said my stories needed a twist. I said, a twist do you ever hear the new journalism, which is already old? At Twist, I would read in class it was like spring time for Hitler because he had all of these people who were you know, prep school kids whatever. So I felt when I was in college. When I graduated, I would either, um, go try to get a job with Rolling Stone in

San Francisco, or try to pursue the ski thing. But I was so burned out on writing that I pursued the ski thing. Yeah, but it serves you well because I mean, you've got this passion right, and it's part of your life. And by the way, how important has skiing been in your career? I mean, Okay, there's a song on the Run with the Pack album called simple Man by Bad Company, and it's an incredible record. He goes, freedom is the only thing meads and damn to me.

And when you are out skiing, it's one of the few things you can do with total freedom. You get out in your car, you drive a hundred miles an hour, You're gonna get stopped. Okay, ski slope you can do whatever you want. You can kill yourself, hopefully you won't, okay. And the other great thing about skiing is when you ski, you can't think about anything else you'll fall. You can think about something on the lift, but once you ski requires totally being in the moment the sensation. The only

sensation I found better than the skiing is sex. And you can ski whenever you want. It can't necessarily get laid whatever you want, so I don't want, you know. It's one of these things skis and skis like music now, which is unfortunate when I they're both mature. When I started skiing in the sixties, they were still developing new ski resources. There were all these great technological revolutions. The big revolution in skiing years ago was the high speed lift.

Now it's about it's a more of a middle to upper class sport, and the same ski areas exist. It's the same thing. In music. It used to be a renegade business. You would go to concerts in the sixties. The sound was terrible and people couldn't play. Wasn't until the mid seventies of the sound was good. Now most of the concerts are done by either Live Nation or a g there's three major labels. There's not the renegade spirit what we saw in the last twenty years in

the internet sphere was that renegade. There was always something new that's been consolidated too, So that's unfortunate, but it's it's exciting to be at something when it's being developed, just like snowboarding, although snowboarding is now going downhill because it's reached the peak. I agree, I agree. I think we're gonna I think skiing will come back in a in a little bit in the conversation, but where we need to get to is, Okay, you go to Mammoth,

you've done Park City. You go to Mammoth to get your law degree, and then you end up in the music business. No. No, let's be very clear. I always wanted to be in the music business, and I knew at the time it's changed. At this point, there were six major labels. Three of them were run by lawyers. My father is a real estate appraiser. I have no connections. I figure, if I go to law school, it will help me get a start in the music business. I went to law school. It was so boring and terrible.

Is this after Mammoth? Yes, because I got the world's worst Okay, just to go back the first year I'm in Utah. Let's be very clear, this is it's Snowbird. And the second year I go back to Snowbird and I choke on the freestyle circuit. Okay, Then there's a new rival one that I'm competing in. Then I get the world's worst case of my the nucleosis. And I applied to law school and I didn't think I would go, and then I was so down on and I went and it was terrible. I was going to drop out.

But it was literally the world's where. You know, people are one thing that bothers me about society in general, and certainly the music business people are always rewriting history. But I say, it was the worst year in the history of snow in the West Coast. And it was seventy seventy. There was no snow, and so I called to telling people, hey, you know, should I come to Utah?

Said don't come, we're leaving. There's no snow. But then it happened again two thousand and eleven, two thousand and twelve, and they started writing about seventy seven. So I went to law school in l A. And I fell in with someone moment. It was my first big romance that carried me through law school. You've written about this too, right, So since you go to law school, I'm gonna pass the bar. I mean, I'm not someone to go three

years for law school and not take the bar. So one of the reason you want to live in l A. Because that's the epicenter of the music business. So I used to go to the wreck store. I would do all my studying, Like the first three days of Sunset no no, I certainly went to Tower on Sunset. I went to a place which was called Grammy and Granny on Gaily Avenue, and there was also in Westwood, Okay. They had all the promo records, expensive promo records to

forty nine. You get other things for dollar ninety nine. There's so many records I bought that I took a chance on Carlabanas debut album to this day, one of my favorite albums. I bought as a promo. The first Alan Parsons project record brought us a promo. So many things so I bought. I mean, I was a regular customer. They would save records like you know the Eagles long run comes out, They'd save a they had the promo. So I was heavily invested in going two shows. That

was my passion. Living in l A. Law school was secondary. So when I graduated from law school, you take the bar in July, but you don't find the results till the week before Thanksgiving. And certainly if I didn't pass the bar, I was going to take it again. But in the interim I got a job because I wasn't gonna try to get my real my dream job in the music business. I got a job with an entertainment lawyer whose work was primarily in the movie business. Yes,

Sam Pearl Motter. He is famous for one thing. If he's famous, primarily he broke here the deal for the George Foreman grill. But he represented a lot of people, and I was the only guy wanted. He made more money from the George Foreman of course, of course, and he uh um. At the time. He represented people who had had songs on the Bad Girls album from Donna Summer because of a legal issue, she'd left her management,

her publishing, everything, and I worked on those royalties. In addition, they had songs in major movies, and I negotiated those deals. Then I hated, I passed the ball are and I quit, and I said I'm going out to be a manager, and then I starved and he called me back in because he'd gotten a really big client at the time, Cannon Films and were the biggest independent film company of the early eighties, and uh work with that, And then I got a job working with this guy, Charles Band.

Charles is still around. He's basically in the horror genre and at the time we had multiple divisions. He started the first independent video cassette company, which were horror movies. He made movies, we had video games, the Halloween and Texas Chainsaword video games. We also made records. He put to me more in her first movie, Parasite in three D, and we made a deal with her husband, Freddie Moore, who had one of the hip bands. It was a big scene in the late seventies. Do Wa've seen in

l A. He had a band called the Cats. They were then called the New Cats Ultimate they were called Boy Boy next Door and we made a record with them, produced by Mark Goldenberg from the Cree Tones, and I hung with Freddie into me every day for a year. The funny thing I was driving my girlfriend coming home from Hamilton's two weeks ago. We were going on Sam Santa Monica Boulevard, and I said, oh, that's where I used to work on Fairfax. And then the next block

is this Mexican place, Los Tacos. We used to go there every day and Freddy would put a quarter of the jukebox and it would be he's so shy physical and I forget the third track because he was a rocker who had a thing for the pop stuff. And then to me went to make Blame It in Rio, and a lot of things happened. Let me let me

tell this story. Though we made the record, the record came out, and then Freddie did not tell me that he was invited Clive Davis to the gig, and I felt squeezed out, which I was what do you have to know about musicians is they're desperate. They only have one chance. They will fuck over anybody to get where they want. And you have to understand it's rational because if you're a manager, you can always get another act. If you're a musician, you have one shot. So I

felt fucked over by the band and Freddie. He ultimately made it go. It's by one chance, but then Clive passed anyway, and then Charles called me out karma, big believer in that not necessarily instant, although it's instant in this case. So uh. Then Charlie called me up and said, did you see this article in the newspaper about this band that throws meat into the audience? And I said, yeah, band called Wasp. This is says I want to put

that band in one of our movies. We've made a previous movie, Metal Storm in three D, which followed Jaws three D into the movie theater. So we're making I knew how to make a movie back when the for you know, uh, video cams, etcetera. I literally know how to do it, particularly in three D, whichuse me. I said, it's specifically in three D. Well, we knew how to do that too. But this movie we're making called Rage War.

It started the guy who ended up being bull at night Court and I became very tight with the band band Wasp, and they said, we sell out the country Club. At the time, the country Club was the big club out in Recita, held about a thousand people. I think it's still there, but if they don't, I don't don't book gigs anymore, though well they don't. They definitely don't do a thousand people, right, But in any of that, I went on a Sunday night, they were like nine

people there. So I maintained my relationship with Blackie, who is wasp and he's kept saying, oh, and I had this relationship with guy Rod Smallwood. It goes in one ear, went out out another, and then he calls me one day. There's like three months later, he goes king Rod small would come in and meet you. To this day, Rod Smallwood is manager of Iron Maiden, and I said sure, because a fucking idiot, there's so many layers in the music business. You learned. I thought Rod Smallwood wanted to

meet me. He didn't want to meet me. I had thirty five millimeter film of an unsigned band that didn't exist in so what he ultimately after he listened to my horse ship for thirty minutes, he said he wanted to borrow one of the video cassettes. At the time, the standard was three quarter inch video. He said, I was number two at the company. There were two of these, only one in the building. It just couldn't disappear. So I basically said, finally, I say, okay, okay, you can

take it. It just has to come back today even doesn't come back to there and lose my job did come back. He went and made a five hundred grand cash deal for WASP because Iron Maiden was the biggest worldwide band on the capital. And then the next day black It calls me, goes, are you a lawyer? Yeah, I'm a lawyer, went like five or six times because I really need to know. So you know, was I have a bar card? Okay, And I showed him the

bar card. When he came in, he goes, I need you to represent me, and my deal was saying it was the management company. So I negotiate that deal. Going back a step, when we mastered the Freddie Moore record, there was a funk up. In addition, my boss wrote a bad check. I ended up becoming very close with the mastering company, and to this day, this guy, Stephen Markinson, is one of the top castering engineers in the world.

So in any event twenty or thirty years now exactly so at the time you would have to book mastering weeks in advance. But Stephen was a good friend of mine, and at the time this guy at um Sterling Sound was the guy who meant it, who mastered all the metal and they sent it to him and it came back fucked up, and I asked Stephen for a favor and he cut it. But then you have to cut refs and it takes you can only cut. They had two lazy get two at a time. They're doing because

that's and the band is now Antsie. So they go to the Rainbow where you went every night, and I said I would bring the rest. I bring the rest, and Rod Smallwood is there and he's all pushed out of shape. He can be an intense guy. What are you doing with the rest? Bla blah blah blah blah, and explained the story and he goes, you shouldn't be a lawyer, you should be a manager. When my partner comes back to town, I'm gonna make a deal. These are still the guys who manage Iron Maiden. Just just

to be clear. It was Sanctuary Music and then they ran out of money. They were kept alive by Ralph Simon at Zomba. Then they came back and then they went public. Everybody invested. They took all their money out. They did well, then it crashed. The assets were sold to Universal, but that was all after my too. By the way, I was there for a few years. Right before they went. I was part of the crash. It was like, is that's a whole another podcast? Um? So

they did. About two months later, Andy Taylor did come. We did make a deal. They bought this house that um Chauncey Gardner you know I'm talking about. But who was the actor Peter Sellers. He had bought it and just gotten married, but he died before we could move in there. It was just above the rainbow. They put me so um they put You know, they had a lot of cash. This is not the way the music business normally runs. But forty grand in one bank account,

anty granted another bank account. And I remember them leaving there, go to the airport and they could only be in American ninety days at the time without paying taxes. They go, you have any cash this? And I said, sure, how much? He thinks if we even going to the airport, do you have any company cash? Well, you know, I got all this money in the bank. You know what, because you're gonna need cash. And they whipped out d dollars cash and I said, what am I going to do?

And he goes, I put it in my front pocket. The irony being is you need that cash because when you're working with the rock band, it's got all these hangars on believers who do work. None of them have a dollar, none of them have a credit card, and they would have to Like I remember we had a rent a skeleton. You need a thousand dollar deposits and you'd whip off a thousand dollars. So I ran the US office and I had to be the heavy first and foremost. They could only be in American ninety days

a piece. And there were things like we had a rich deal and they had to fund the videos, and we were making a video and the video this the first video was for forty five grand, the second was for seventy grand. And I had a lot of cash. I was about seventeen grand in and I called up to get a check from Capital for twenty grand. They say, we only write checks on Thursday. This is Monday, and I said, I need to check this week, too bad, We gotta write We only write checks on Thursday. And

I called Rod, who was in the Bahamas. He goes, that's why I hired you. You have to do the work. So I had to call Capital. I said, either you write me the check or I'll billy you for the money. I'm already in needless just say I got the check. But this comes up later. Then when you deal with any band, forget this pop thing where everybody's moldible. But back when they used to have real bands, you know

when that ended basically the early nineties. Um, they have like a ten year plan even though they're nobody's they know what song is gonna be, a single, etcetera. So Blackie wanted to produce the album himself. Capital wouldn't let them, so they had this guy, Mike Varney, who was famous for finding all the hot new rock guitars produce it. The mix was terrible, okay, so I told Blackie it needed to be remixed. He said he would only remix it if Carter said otherwise. Carter was the A and

R guy is now deceased at Capital. He's famous for two things. He wrote the lyrics to Incense and Peppermints, and he engineered. He was the executive producer on Tina Turner's Comeback. He deserves all the credit. So I bring the cassette into Carter. I play it for him. It's over and he says, uh, I passed on this band three times, do whatever you want. It's like it was signed above me, so I'm freaked out. But in the interim Black he played it for some other people and

he realized it needs to be remixed. I got this guy Dwayne Baron, who had a huge hit with Quiet Ryan. He rescued the record. But if you remember MTV, they would go through these phases of what they played and they swift to shifted to a non metal phase and Dwayne rescued another track. We had a great video too. I said this should be the single because I cared about the music. To make a long story very short, as you have, I got fired for standing up to

the band. Rod Smallwood's famously said, which if you put it in today's context, your head will spin like Reagan in the Exorcist. What difference does it make it the first album is unsuccessful and right, and then I got fired. I you know I had I had a ton of money because you can't spend a dollar when you have a job like that, and just to get to the key point we're actually at. Then I couldn't get another job because everybody told me this this big heavy guy

wielding bower. Okay, but this. I worked on a couple of movies because people I had hired they you know, some music, super right. And then I went to see a job counselor and my shrink said to do it, and she gave me this workbook from What Color Is Your Parachute? The famous job seeking book. Yeah, like one of the greatest books ever written. Right and still right.

The guy recently died Bowls and uh I wrote essays and I got back in touch with the fact I love to write, Okay, And I wrote and I said something to magazines when the rejections came back, and said, wait a second, Wait a second, this is just like the music business. You have to know these people. Then I was eating in a hamburger at Flaky Jake's doesn't exist anymore. It was the corner of Pico in Sepulvidame. Okay, and I'm reading Billboard. It was one of its terrible phases.

It got better with this guy, Timothy White, than he died. It got worse again, and I'm reading to go this is terrible. I could do a better job than this. And I knew, because I was constantly rewriting the UH bios that the publicity people had that. I said, I could actually do this. So I went on and woke up. My girlfriend said you should do this, you should do this,

and I knew there was a computer. I didn't have a computer at the time, and I thought about it for a week, and then I went out and charged up five end worth the computer equipment on a credit card I had gotten from being a lawyer, and I started this newsletter in the fall of eighty six. I said, three thousand copies to three times from a directory I got, got the addresses from the Yellow Pages of rock Uh, this from the album network, which also no longer exists.

I think it's I think it's important to add this is the beginning of the right here and right now exactly. This is it. And I was really doing it. I was really doing it just to get into the job in the music business. I didn't think it would be successful. The irony was at the time. It came out every two weeks religiously. It was all analysis and business tips. I'm writing so much now, covering a lot of ground,

but every it was not like radio tips. It would be like here's the situation, here's how we analyze it. The head of every label subscribed. They all wanted to meet me. I thought people on the way up would subscribe. Fewer of those people because they were drinking the kool aid. The top guy can have a different perspective. So I did that for four years, always looking for other opportunity. This was via facts, no, no, no, it was via regular mail. I occasionally said a post stamp, you got it,

and it was a lot of effort. I didn't get it until right so. UM. What happened was I ran on the money. My ex wife moved out. It was really bad. I crashed really hard. I have a theory that everybody loses like ten years of their lives, and that was my ten years. And in the interim, the Internet happened and I had a free subscription to a

O L. It's funny. I saw this guy just last night, Jeff Gold, who was the big end up in general manager of Warner Brothers UM and he gave it to me when uh, people weren't really I got a job writing for the Pulse mag is Zene, which was the arm of Tower Records. It was like Rolling Stone came out once a month and they paid me three times when anybody else paid And they printed my address. Once all these people were calling me and email and sending me letters, and then some woman in college said can

I email you? And I knew I had this a O L subscription, so I fired that up. Then there was a famous board on a O L called the Velvet Rope about the music business and early right Julie Gordon. Okay. I started to participate on that, and then I started my own because they kept moving that whatever. But I got very heavily into the Internet. From thousand, I was

in every nook and creative became a big expert. Just to go two steps further, we were going to the Aspen conference and in it was the first time the contact list had email addresses. Friends of mine worked in the book business for in the house. There's a famous book about David Geffen called The Operator, and I had it a weekend before anybody else. I wrote about it, sent it to all to my Aspen list. Response was great.

I had a little directory. The album network all suddenly was having a directory with email addresses from some of their subscribers, and I could cross reference some of my subscribers, and I sent it and as my first experience with virality, okay. As I remember hearing from all these people like uh, Jefferson Holt, who used to be the manager of rari um okay, and he said he got And I said, you're not a subscriber, how do you got? I got

it from Mark Williams, famous an our god. And I think this is where I got in on it too. I think it's it just it went viral. Mark Williams wasn't a subscribe either, So then I stopped charging for subscriptions. I stopped sending it by email, and if you were from an Aspen person who were already a subscriber, you got it. If you're in the circle. If you're in the circle, you email me to get it. I did

not automate it until two thousand and five. The advantage to that was I was on the bleeding edge of all this stuff that people take for granted. And I'm not saying this is necessarily good stuff, but I'm talking about the hate and all this other But what he also did is you you built incredible credibility process, like you became authentic and credible as a voice, and and and and no disrespect to Julie, but that velvet rope thing was not right. I mean, well, let's just to

go back there. The velvet rope was, you know, really a vicious thing. She left, oh a O. L went somewhere else. And the guy who hosted this, this guy Craig Anderton, electronic musician, worked at Gibson until about a month ago, and a very nice guy. He said, I'll host one for you, right, and we did it. What I didn't realize at the time was this is sound kind of pompous. I would write definitively. People would be too intimidated to respond. So I did that. It became

really important, really fast. Right. So I did that for like two years and was also burned out. But once what happened was when I went online in the year two thousand. That's when the whole Napster thing happened. And since I was a lawyer, I understood the legal stuff on naster. I was the expert on Napster. They would call me everybody from Hillary Rose and who was head of the uh R, I double a everybody. I got right in the thick of exactly about political stuff. You know,

she was everybody hated her in real life. She was basically uh an okay person but um that that that's what happened, and there are many details because I thought that it was copyright infringement, but I thought that the labels would establish that and then that have naptrical legal which was not the case. So certainly by the fall of two thous they went to shut it down. I became the expert on the other side all of what was going on with the Internet that they could not battle.

I guess there's one last question maybe here, Why the funk are you doing this? Lot's an interesting question. Now there's this guy, David Dorn who's a big, big wigged Apple Music. Now it was two thousand five. He tracked me down about doing this podcast for Rhino and I did it all the way to remember this, all the way to the end of two thousand nine. That podcast was about talking about records and I could use any label, etcetera.

And there was a very it's like anything else. You know, I got email for years after it stopped people would want to hear that again. Okay, so I'm gonna give you the real, real, real, real story. Yeah yeah. So in any event, David moved on and that ended. Okay, podcast went down, and then then what came back up, and everybody has a podcast and Howard Stern is giving them ship. Everybody can broadcast, etcetera. And it's like, I don't want to write a novel. That's not what I do.

My thing is immediate. People say write a book, Say I'm gonna take a year or two to write a book. It's gonna reach a tenth of the people that I normally reach. That's not what I'm gonna do. And the podcast, you know, it's like Peter Teel says, you know, you go where everybody else isn't. But in the full two years ago, I lost my two big paying gigs you know, nothing lasts forever, and one the company you know, literally went. Both companies went in a different direction. But both stories

are a little complicated. But I lost them both in a week and I'd saved a lot of money. But it's through me. Okay, It's just like two years ago, it was, you know, so um this is I had a column in Variety and I had the uh these potu these uh Spotify playlists I was doing for Rhino, and I know totally redid their thing. And Variety is a much deeper story, but it came to a close and uh, I hate to admit it. It's like, you know, a breakup for me. It takes a long time for

me to recover from these. It's hard to get over. And also I'll also admit, since I turned sixty really fucked me up. You know everybody's saying, you know, no, just they say sixties to do fifty or new forty. That's worship sixty and sixty. Okay, it might live a little bit longer. The problem with turning sixty is a lot of it's a it's a visceral thing. It's not something you contemplate until it comes up in your brain.

Um is that? A lot of it's bullshit, like when I see hype, like I'm reading the newspaper now and they have they talk about acts, and they talk about what was just said. They're just hyping it. Okay, we don't know. I'll find out. I'll go on Rotten Tomatoes a day it comes out and find out whether it's worth seeing. I don't have to follow the promotion for

a year in advance, so what is really important? And then you get to a spot where it goes It doesn't make any difference because at first you want to be remembered. Then you realize nobody's gonna be remembered. Young people today have no idea how big Johnny Carson was, and the Beatles continue to be big, but there are a lot of bands from the seventies who were huge already been forgotten. So it frees you up to do

different things. Okay. Then I got an email from I was, okay, I do a certain number of personal appearances, certain number of podcasts myself. And I was on the Recode podcast and I knew I killed and I killed, and uh, some guy tracked me down. This craziest Railey guy had the fourth big third biggest YouTube channel if you discount Vivo, and he wanted to do a podcast, and I liked that he was young. Okay, and I said, well, maybe

I'll take a flyer. Then Irving as Off said, well, a big radio chain was interested, so a big radio chain. We were at paper was gonna do with the big radio chain, okay. And then the guy who is head of tune In track me down and he said well, and I said, you literally have to get on it right away. I mean, I'm literally the contracts are going back and forth. So I liked once again that he was from the New World, and part of me believes I'm too late. But I listened to a lot of podcasts,

and many people are bad. It's astounding how many people are truly bad. And then there are people who followings are bad. Because I was brought up in a family where they told me I was a ship hit. My mother would literally say, well, who are you? Why would why would? Why did they listen to you? So I realized, well, if I'm good on these other things, I need to

give it a shot. And also I realized there are a lot of people I do want to talk to, which has a different flavor from writing right, and as you have access to exactly like I'm gonna talk to Nathan Hubbard who ran ticket Master and is in the ticketing sphere that is not known how much you write, it's not something that you can converse. And there are a lot of other people. I mean, I haven't locked these people in, not that they won't lock him. So I don't want to drop the names. There are a

lot of creative people. You're gonna get them all, dude. But as I say, I like to get someone's story, I don't want to just hear the hype, and I don't think there's anybody better. That's my skill. To my detriment, I know everybody's story that you've heard about me. Most people you never hear about me. It's like it's just a newsletter, that's it. So I love to get people's stories.

So I look forward to that the podcast. Well, I just want to share one story with you two thousand and two as your uh as your letter is blowing up. You know, I'm still a relatively young man at that time. I was so inspired that I thought I would try to do the same thing, and I never really was able to pull it off. I didn't know this, soho did you send stuff? No? I didn't send stuff. You know what I did is I would go out. I

was on Sunset Strip every night, as you know. I'd go out to come home after many drinks and partying, and I would try to write something and I could never do it in the way that you did it. So you were such an inspiration to me, and to this day I wish that I had tried to follow through with this. But Bob, thank you for letting me help tell your story. My goal is to make your life more interesting. That's what I'm trying to do here on my new podcast on tune in. I want to

give you information and entertain you simultaneously. In a world full of clutter, I hope to rise above. We love insight. You can email me at Bob at left sets dot com and let us know what you think and suggestions. We're open to all ideas. I hope you enjoyed this inaugural podcast. Be sure to subscribe at tune in, iTunes or your podcast player of choice. Don't know so Dolphas Drum