Jeff Pollack

of emailing back and forth. He had just seen the Laurel Canyon doc that we had done and really liked it. And I sort of said, well, hey, have you ever thought about producing a doc? Would you like to do that? And he goes, well, that would be fun. Who would you want to do? So, as music guys do we we went back and forth saying what would you want

to do? Here's a short list. The thing Rick said to me was I'd want to do something somebody well known, but tell stories about that person that aren't widely known, you know. So um we decided to We both agreed on Paul McCartney and I said, you know, he's never gonna do it. I mean, this is like just you know, Aaron Rodgers pass with the clock running out. It's just nice.

It's not gonna happen. But you know, let's approach him with and and this was Rick's idea, was really focusing on Paul the musician, not a Beatles documentary, something really about the bass player, you know, the arranger, the piano player, the you know, the drummer, and uh, with his third solo album coming out, we said, let's let's ask him. So we ended up reaching out to Scott Roger, his manager, and you know, we didn't hear back for a little bit.

And then did you have a pre existing relationship with Paul or did Rick have a pre existing relationship with Paul? Of course you know Scott Roger, but was this the first time around the merry go round with Paul. Well, I interviewed Paul in nine, but he wouldn't know me from Adam, So yeah, there was nothing there. And Rick had had met maybe a lunch or something with Paul,

but he certainly weren't friends. They were not friends. Okay, So continuing the narrative, you contact Scott Roger, McCartney's manager, and and so um Scott says, well, look, I'll run it by Paul, but you know, he's got a lot going on, and I you know, this is sort of the process you realize, Bob, when you're making an impossible request that's never going to be a yes. So then I get the email back from me says Paul wants to talk to Rick. So they end up having a

phone conversation. And I get a two word email back from Rick which says he's in And so I'm saying to myself, now, what this is COVID And oh, by the way, he's in America on August fift and and he can only do it then. And I looked at the calendar, Bob, and it was three weeks away. So of course all the planning that you would ordinarily do on something like this, and the months it would take to prepare have gone out the window. So we sort of four walled a barn in in the Hampton's were

Paul has this place. I didn't even go because of COVID. We had like three people on the set and we brought everything in. We had the tapes shipped over from Abbey Road, which is sort of the first time they'd ever left Abbey Road, and that's why if you see the series, you can see Paul listening like he hasn't heard it in a long time. And that's in fact the case. Like, okay, just to be technical here, did they ship the actual tapes or were they digital copies? Oh?

They were digital copies. Copies yeah, and so um. And of course Rick being a producer and went through all of them and had all these incredible questions for him. So we shot for fifteen hours, um, and amazingly we were able to do all the post production on it and get it to Hulu. So, I mean literally everything takes so long these days, and we went from him saying yes to being on Hulu in eleven months. Okay, let's start back at the beginning. You talked to Rick.

You say, hey, Paul, you call Scott Roger. Paul speaks to Rick. Well, we both know there are a lot of other things. How did you make the deal with Hulu? And how where did the money come from? They pay a hundred percent? What happened? Really good questions. So Rick has a deal with Film forty five, which is a film production company who has a deal with Endeavor Content. So Endeavor Content said, okay, will fund the shoot, and

it wasn't inexpensive because of COVID Bob. I mean, it was just like we had to do everything in an incredibly short period of time and then uh, once we had some trailers cut, uh, Endeavor Content could go out and sell it. So they basically fronted it for us. And then how did it end up at Hulu? Well, Hulu was very keen on the idea, and of course

Disney had already made the deal for the Peter Jackson film. Uh, so I think they really liked the idea of having uh, you know, a real place with you know, McCartney and you know, three months before the uh the Beatles film came out. So I just I just think, you know, Disney kind of doubled down on the Beatles and McCartney. So lucky for us. Okay, So they fronted the money. Can I ask how much money it was to do the thing lock Stock and Barrel, I can't share that,

but but it was not inexpensive, Okay. So in the deal with Hulu, were you in the block or did you retain certain rights that would ultimately put you in the block. Oh, we were in the black and um, you know it's um, definitely. I mean it was something that was it was extraordinary because so little was being made during COVID. I think it was really a sigh of relief for everybody that there could be something brand

new that was fresh. So it worked out. Okay, so it's been It's on Hulu now because we bean and if you will say, if you have a subscription to Hulu, you can watch it. Would we anticipate it would be on other platforms available in other distribution outlets at some point in the future, you know. I I don't know the length of the deal. I know it's on Disney Plus outside the US because there isn't the Hulu brand outside the US, but um, you know, streamers essentially licensed it.

Like our Sinatra doc which originally was on HBO in All or Nothing at All, is now on Netflix, so you can actually watch it on Netflix. So it's a good question, Bob. I think it's a you know, there's a there's a term, you know, uh, multi year term and then and then it devolves to to somebody else depending on the deal. So what does McCartney say about the finished product? I think he really liked it. I think he heard from a lot of people that it

was surprising that it was. You know, it just felt different than a lot of the standard docks being shot in black and white, being intimate, um, being leisurely, like somebody was in the studio. You've been in enough studios to know that the pacing in a studio is slower, and this was slower. You know, this was Rick Rubin in the studio asking questions and um, it really was, um, a very good experience. And I think that that Paul came off so humbly, you know, he really came off

great and uh um you know. So you know, we were lucky that he said yes, I'm proud of it. With such a brief period three weeks before production, did Rick feel that if he had to do it over again, he would have done it differently, had enough time prepared. I mean, it was great, but what went through his mind, Well, he did an extraordinary a he he's an extraordinary amount of prep for it, as you might imagine Bob Lack he would do for you know, doing him the Chili

Peppers album or something like that. So he went through all the songs that he wanted to ask about and not all of them were obvious ones. You know, he didn't ask, you know, if you're if you're asking about tomorrow, never knows you know, you're you're You're not necessarily asking questions about the biggest hits. But he had a very good sense for each song. We shared song ideas, we shared ideas, but you know, very much of the creative vision was Rix. To give credit here, Rick, Rick really

had an idea of what he wanted to do. He was obviously he knew everything about the Beatles, and he was very intrigued, mostly about the choices that the band or Paul made at a particular question. He was very curious, like, well, why would you decide to do that instead of this? And I think as of you or it was really interesting to watch that. So you have a Grand Slam with Paul McCartney. Are their plans to do more? I don't think so. Um, you know, you never say no,

but I don't think there's anything coming. I think we all felt that, you know, we captured particular period for Paul in a in a new way, which was great. I guess I'm asking do you have any more plans you and Rick to do more with different interview subjects. Good question. He is a very busy guy, and I'm pretty busy myself. We've talked about it, but there's nothing specific at this point. Okay, now, ten years ago, you switch from radio consultancy to this music doc world. What

was going through your head? Why did you make that switch? You know, Bobby, I was always a music guy. I mean I was, even though I was in radio. I wasn't a guy who considered himself a radio guy. I was a music guy. I got into radio in college because I loved music. The idea of playing music for other people that I thought was great and might engage other people was something that I really liked, and it was.

It was one of those non commercial um college stations where we played jazz and classical music and we played a little bit of rock, and I swore that I had never worked at a radio station. I would play anything commercial like Elton John. And then, of course two years later, I am but so much for that. But I I enjoyed that so much, and I was able to get a part time job. I was in Denver and I went to University of Denver, and I worked

at a commercial station. It would have been sort of like the cam Et of Denver, and I worked there part time and then I got the Overnight show. And there was one profound thing that happened to me during that experience, which I've always thought about, is I saw sort of the legendary DJ and Denver. His name was Bill Ashford. He was sort of like the Bert Mitchell read or that kind of person that really is Scott

Muti of Denver. And what year are we in? This is in the seventies, early seventies, and I, uh, well, mid mid seventies. And at this point, um, I saw this guy kind of discarded, like he didn't fit in with the times. So he was replaced. And he was a great music guy, and I was saying to myself, I guess I better think about playing music other people want to hear rather than just what I want to hear.

And that was a very big step for me. So Elton John was on the radio, Bob there he was, and I love great guy, but it wasn't what I wanted to play. John culture, That's where I came from. But so I worked my way up and worked for commercial stations. Okay, let's I want to get to all that. But first, what closed the transition ten years ago. It's a good question because I had worked in the nineties. I had started and worked on thirty to forty films

as a music supervisor. I was lucky enough to be the guy people called who would once in a while get one of his music choices in there, because it was always you know, the director's daughter or the producer's brother or everybody. Of course, we're experts on music. So the idea you can actually get a song into a movie that you thought actually might work, uh was. It

was nice to have happened. So I worked on a bunch of UM films, some of which you actually even have heard of, and and I noticed how interesting it was as I observed what producers did and everything else and the storytelling involved. It reminded me of my early days in radio, which is all about storytelling. It's about putting music together and storytelling. And I was lucky because I met Frank Marshall on a UM some event we did.

And it turns out that Frank, who was obviously a very well known producer, worked with Spielberg and still does for all those years. And you know your audience would know him from the born Identity films and the Jurassic UH films and everything else, but that his father was a professional musician. His father, Jack Marshall, played with Chet Baker and Sinatra and everything else. And Frank always loved music, and I said, why don't we do some music docs?

I said, you don't get paid much, but it's sure is fun. And so we ended up coming together and tackling the most difficult one to begin with, which which was Sinatra. So we worked several years on that. I and you know, it's a learning process, and I learned that I have kind of a knack for doing this

and I really love doing it. And it's you know, it's UM having the relationships to be able to talk to the estates and talk to the people and have them trust you and believe that you're not going to just make a film that UM is going to trivialize or or or do things that are gossipy. I'm not a gossip guy, I said. If you want to traffic and gossip, then i'm your Then I'm not your guy.

If you want to talk about music and songwriting and arranging, you know, I mean, like our Johnny Cash film, we did it does deal with his drug issues, but only as it relates to his touring and his music. I I just that's not the stuff I'm interested in, you know. Okay, so you do the SATRU uh doc. At what point do you push radio aside? It was happening. I sort

of evolved. I went from radio to still working with radio and doing uh the music supervision and was working with with Tom Preston who you know, and Judy and van at at MTV and I worked with them for a long time as a consultant and as a music I and obviously music went away, so I, you know, I shifted my responsibilities and then I worked for Spotify for a lot of years. I was always interested in sort of the new platform that would expose music. I've

always been very curious about that. And radio became less of a priority for me. I just didn't enjoy it as much. It didn't get me excited like it was when I was a program director. When I was a program director in Philadelphia, it was so exciting and creative, and we had a lot of competitors, you know, and you had to be really good to get people to listen Deer station. And suddenly when I could buy my competitor. Uh,

then the it wasn't as challenging. You know, when when the when the when the ownership rules changed, you know. So okay, let's go back to the beginning. You're from l A, right. What did your parents do for a living? My both my parents are from the Midwest. I was born here. I don't have anybody in entertainment in the family at all, you know. Um, I have two brothers and two sisters. My father was a corporate lawyer, and my mom was uh, you know, a um, a wife

and a mom and a brilliant woman who inspired me greatly. Um. And if there are five kids, where are you in the hierarchy? I'm fourth out of five? And what did the other four do these days? Why did their lives play out? My oldest brother is retired and he was in the vending business. Uh whatever that is. I'm not sure what it was, still don't know what is. But um,

my sister is a psychologist. My brother was a Supreme Court justice in Hawaii, in the state of Hawaii, so he was a judge and he just retired from the bench. And because of forcible retire they have age limits there. I wish they had him here for our for our country. Uh and um, and my youngest sister teaches at the in northern California. So what what kind of kid will you growing up? Growing up? Were you the kind of kid who was alone? We remember the group? We are

leader of the group. What we like? I had a lot of behavioral issues. Let us say I had gotten a lot of trouble. My father was going to send me to military school in Vancouver. I can tell you. I mean I think on Victoria Island. That's how far away that that guy won me away. So but my mother wouldn't let him do it. Thanks to her, she thought it would kind of break the spirit. But you know, I got in a lot of trouble, but it was nothing really malicious. I just was, you know, like most

kids looking for attention and doing things like that. You could just go a little deeper, you know. What was your bad behavior? Uh? Well? Um? I was chucked out of three schools elementary schools, um and demoted at one of them, another one in junior high. So they just didn't like my behavior. You know, I just wouldn't listen to anybody. I I'm not very good with authority, so I I probably learned that from Jim Morrison. I just had a big problem with the Actually, one of the

schools actually made you repeat a year. They wanted to humiliate me, so they I was I think I was in eighth grade and they made me go to a seventh grade home room. And as a kid, that is so embarrassing and humiliating. So but yeah, what happens in the high school, Well you start to figure it out.

You start to figure it out. In around eleventh grade, I figured, okay, so I can do these fun things I want to do and start I started a club called the Lizard Legion in high school, inspired by Jim Morrison, and and signed up two people without them knowing what the club was about. I mean, those are the kinds of things that I figured out how to do. Okay, I'm interested. So what was the Lizard Legion and what

was your goal? And what how how did it play out? We? Uh, we're protesting the eating of iguanas as a delicacy in South America. And I mean the whole thing, Bob was just me spoofing the administration and trying to get them to um and I gotta I gotta a sponsor. Who was a teacher and all that. The administration thought it was a political organization. I thought it was some sort of leftist organization, and it was it was me figuring out how to work the system finally, rather than them

throwing me out. I was kind of challenging them with a bit of humor wrapped up in the whole thing. You know. It was just like, you know, okay, this is a public or private school. Public, it's a Grand Grant high school, and uh in North Hollywood. Okay, this is what I'm interested in. You know, you're a relatively saw spoken guy, but you have all these relationships and you work those relationships. What are the roots of that activity in that skill? Well, I work hard. I like

to all that. Um. I'm not always calling people for favors. I think that you know in in um, I think to call and and tell somebody that you like their record or that hey, you like the show or something. Um. You know, there's there's you know, this is a relationship built on people. And if you're always calling just asking for favors or something, Hey can I do a film

about this guy? Or can I do this? You know, my relationships have always been too I'd like to think somebody could say, hey, do you mind if I send you a copy of this record and tell me what you think or what you think of this single, or you know, would you come to the show and listen? You know, I mean it's I I think it's it's um. I value those relationships. I don't burn them. I don't um um. If something is a secret, it's a secret.

And um, you know you and I probably are you know, have access to a lot of people sharing stuff with us. That's uh block and that's also confidential. And I think you really have to honor those relationships. You have the incentive to start the Lizard Legion. You ultimately had your own radio consultancy with multiple employees where owners depending on how you defined it, dot entrepreneurship, that ability to start things. Where do you think that came from? I think my father.

He didn't like the word no very much, and I don't like it either. And it people will tell you who know me, well is doesn't Jeff ever give up? But you know, if I've had no, then I'll say, well, maybe there's another way to do it. And I saw that in my home, where my father would talk about somebody said, well, we can't really move put the kitchen. Uh. We kept at the oven there in the kitchen because it won't fit there. And he said, well, what if we tried this or try that? He was always it's

like what if? And I think the thing that has driven my entire life without me able to to articulate it, but I can now, is the worst somebody can say to you is no. So if that's the case, Bob, you've got to go for it. You've got to try. You've got to do something that you know. And that's the thing with McCartney. I knew he wouldn't say yes. It was impossible, you know, like and then he did. And once in a while, something you'll get a yes

if you if if you give it a shot. And you know, I have two kids here, and I hope that they've learned that from me, that you know, you really have to give it a go. I mean, the idea of me leaving Philadelphia. When I left Philly to start a consultancy, I had no I idea about being a consultant. I don't even know what that was. I just had a few people call me up after the success in Philadelphia, said Hey, I don't know what you

did there? Every can you do it for me? And I said to my parents, like, I guess that's a job. I don't know. I mean, you know, I'll move back home and I'll start a company and then and then you work hard and realized that you can make something of it. Okay. So was there music in the household? Did you grow up with music in the sixties in l A. I mean, that's a privilege. So how connected

were you to music before you went away to college. Well, I grew up with classical music, so, um, yeah, my parents weren't into jazz, even though my mom loved Elavizgerald, but she um, but classical we went as a kid. So we would go all the time to the Philharmonic. We'd go to the Hollyway Bowl. We we we you know, and they had these concerts for young people. So my knowledge of classical music is pretty significant based on just

growing up with it, you know. Um. And instead of my mother saying don't be in a rock band, what I was in in high school, she she was excited because it was music for her. It was you know, she didn't worry about whether it was you know, classico or something that she would personally like. She liked the fact that I was, you know, in a band. Okay, did you take piano lessons or you just pick up the guitar when you saw the Beatles on TV. I took piano lessons, and that I, um, like most people,

aspired to be in a band. Uh. And I wasn't a particularly good singer, and I was a decent piano player, which is what I ended up being in a band. But certainly would not give Bruce horns By any stage fright from me appearing on stage with him. So at what point did you say this is not a future or do you always know playing wasn't a future? You know? When I went to college in Colorado and I was still in a band, and I had a band in college, and then I started working at the college radio station,

I said, well, wow, this is fun. I can be around music and I don't have to play, and in fact, I get to share what I think is good. So I could play Billy Holiday and then I could play fair Port Convention, and I could play all these things that I loved. And it was a non commercial station. So it's a blessing and we're no ratings. Uh, And so that was really what changed it for me as I realized I could still be around music and uh,

but wouldn't have to necessarily be in a band. Okay, in the sixties, before you went away to Colorado, did you go to a lot of shows by a lot of records. Oh? Yes, I was, you know, I mean I love music and I was heavily influenced by it. Um you know, um growing up in l A. Bob, you go to shows earlier. It's sort of interesting. It is ridiculous if you look at some of the gigs for some of these famous sixties bands where they played. I mean, you could go to high school and it

would be the doors. Jefferson Airplay, a whole list of groups playing because they didn't have any place to play, you know then, and they were just getting going. So if you look at what's really interesting, if you I'm doing a film on Jim Morrison next, and if you do the look at the first six months of nineteen sixty seven before like my Fire really took off. They're playing teen centers, they're playing high schools. And then suddenly in the second half after you know, Sullivan and some

of the other things. Suddenly they're playing these much larger arenas. But I was lucky because I could see a lot of these bands player. I saw the doors played at the Hollywood Bowl. That was my first big show. Wow. So why go to college in Colorado? Well, let me just say that my grades weren't very good. Bob. I would say that the Lizard Legion and other activities led to a less of an academic focus for me. And so I suddenly found that at the end of my

senior year that my grades were pretty bad. And um, the options for this young valley boy weren't great. I was not going to be going to the Ivy League. So I got into University of Denver, but only after they rejected me. And then my father wrote a letter and they put me on parole because they didn't think well the scott obviously with these and these grades were not good, you know. Uh. And then of course i've you know again, like the story I mentioned about, you know,

going from eighth grade to seventh grade home room. Um, when you're on probation, then I made the dean's list. Yeah, well, because they're gonna you don't don't tell me I'm stupid or I can't do it. Don't don't do that to me. So you mean I have to apply myself. Okay, I'll apply myself. So I went to school for three years, fell in love with radio, or at least music on the radio, and never finished. What your parents have to say about not finishing where they were extremely unhappy with that.

They didn't care what I did, but they did not They didn't like the fact because for them, of course, it was very important. And for my mom, who went to college, um, it was an automatic for you know, somebody of her generation to go to college, so she really felt it was super important. Okay, so you left school because he had a job offer. Yes. In fact, I saw a professor of mine pumping gas as a second job, and I said, well, if I got a job, should I just take it? And like Evison, so I

got a full time job doing the overnight show. Okay, did you pitch them? How did you actually get the job? Oh? They they heard me on the college station. And it's much less than it used to be, Bob. But college radio was a great farm club for commercial radio. A lot of people worked there, and you know, if you were in a city and you had a part time job open, where would you go? There weren't a million people around, So you listened to some guy on the

college station. He goes, okay, he's okay, I'll hire him. You know, you remember how much they were paying you? Oh uh, I think it was. I do know. My first full time job, I remember in when I moved into Mexico after working overnight in Denver, I was being paid five a month. I remember that. Okay, so let's get the steps right. You're in your overnights in Denver. Yeah, And when do you quit college and how do you

end up in New Mexico. Well, I couldn't, you know, I mean, I stopped going to class because I couldn't you six nights a week, thirty six hours. You know. I was living with four other roommates. They're all girls, and and I wasn't I didn't have a relationship with any of them. But they were noisy as hell, and I mean, you know, it was a not a good situation. So school just kind of disappeared, and I got a full time job, and then I got off to start

a brand new station in New Mexico. And so the FIS looked good to me because it was way more than what I was getting. I don't know what it was. But okay, well, how did you end up living with four women? Probably cheap? You know. The reason I'm asking is do you have a natural affinity with women? A lot of guys really don't. Well, I really like women and respect women. And um, I grew up in a

house where there weren't any traditional roles. Really. I mean, my father and mother both cooked, they both did the dishes, they both you know, I mean, it wasn't I didn't need to relearn. Uh you know, my mom was brilliant, you know, in terms of the way she was. So I it's not like I had to make a readjustment to kenyes that women were as smart or smarter than men are. So I always, I guess I always got along well with with women. Okay, So where New Mexico

is the station and what plays out there? Albuquerque, New Mexico. Um and uh we. I was there for about two years and then got a job offered to go leave there and go back to the big FM rock station in Denver, which is still their KBP. I that was sort of like the one of the big stations in the West, and so I took that job because I also missed Denver. I really loved Denver, and you know it's I don't need to tell you it's fantastic. Colorado is the best, and I could go back there, and

I don't know. New Mexico was interesting, but it's the desert. So okay, you go back to Colorado. What's the step After Denver? I get hired by a guy calls me up and says, we have this job opening to be a program director. And I had never been a program director before. I was a music director, uh in the lovely city of Fresno. And I said, and I'm from l A, so I know about Fresno. I said, I'm not going to Fresno. He goes, you want to be a program director. I said, yes, You're going to Fresno. Okay,

So off I went. And it was a It was this radio station, UH called Kino FM. And then six months after that, I ended up being promoted to work for a company owned by Bill Drake and Jean Channel called Drake Chanlton. Of course, Bill Drake as you know as the radio pioneer, the guy who Boss Radio and all that came from. And I ended up working for him, and it was impossible not to learn uh from somebody

like that about radio because I really didn't. I was really doing um adopting a lot of the things that he did until I met him. You know, Okay, you go to work for Drake Chanelle and uh so continue, how do you ultimately end up in Philadelphia? Yeah? And and just to say you asked about consulting. The interesting thing about working for Directional it was I was sort of a consultant working for them, traveling to these small markets all over the country. I mean, I wasn't going

to Detroit. I was going to Sall for Louisiana. You know, Hey, here's a guy from Drake Chanale. He's gonna tell us what we can do. So and then I got a job offer to work uh at w MMR in Philadelphia. And I told my parents I never lived in Philly before, And I said, all right, you've asked him what I'm gonna do with my life. They've had three program directors at this station in the last two years. I'll go there, I'll get fired, and then I'll come home and get

a real job. I promise my parents goes Okay, that sounds sensible. Because I said, I'll just be another one of those losers that they hire and get rid of. And I went there and the guy who's when he did the job interview was Metromedia at the time. The guy goes, well, you're pretty young. What makes you think you can do this? And I said, I remember this quote verbatim Bob. I said, it's not how long you play the It's not it's not how long you play

the guitar, it's how you play it. And he goes, oh, okay, So I got the job and we're okay. So you get the job and you're no longer on the air. Correct, no longer on the air. And I didn't miss it. I I you know, I you know it was It felt like it's something that was there. But suddenly I go to a station that has dead last one point two ratings in Philadelphia, barely on the air, and this is the Legacy Great station. There. There's two other rock stations,

uh w Y SP ANDQ. And when I got there, I was just like, l a, oh, this guy doesn't know Philly, he doesn't know anything, blah blah blah. So I come there and uh, Larry Maggot Electric factory, famous promoter. I have a meeting with him. He looks, he kind of rolls his eyes, like, okay, here's the latest in the series of And I said, I'd like to promote

some concerts. He goes, sure, sure, sure, sure. So the week I get there, one guy's got Billy Joel, one guy's Bruce Frinkstein and goes, I'll tell you what, We've got Jehan lu Ponti playing the Tower Theater. And I said I'll take it because it was like, you know, because they were they weren't going to give me anything good, you know, they just so And it was all based on on ratings. So I got there, you know, you had to be again, I was too young to be scared.

I suppose and fired ten people my first week there. Um, I didn't. I didn't like that part of it at all, but I knew with the people I had, I couldn't go forward. I hired a bunch of people. The evening guy, I wasn't sure whether I should keep him or not. He introduced to SO, so, my name is Mark Goodman.

I said, well, Mark, you're gonna have to do better than you're doing man, you know, So I kept him and but it was very interesting because what I realized about the BMMR, and maybe because it was I was an outsider. I realized that people still loved the station. They had great affection for the station. They wanted it to be successful. So I said, okay, I'm going to bring back all the famous DJs. That's the first thing I did, and they go. Michael Tearson's back doing evenings,

Joe Banna Donna. I met Joe Banna Donna, who was the afternoon drive guy. He'd been fired the week before I got there. I said, you are rehired. Okay, I know you've got severance, good for you, but you're now rehired. And I what happened was I changed the station internally, Bob and I. But it was camouflaged by bringing back all the old jocks and bringing back all the heritage of the station. It was and I wasn't doing it really consciously, more than just saying, hey, these people are great.

Let's bring back what's great about the station. But internally, let's change what we're playing. And every time I went to Philly, uh, when I was doing the interview, because well, you know, this is not a rock town, I go really, I said, I'm from California. We've got a bunch of rock stations. I said, I don't care. We're going to

rock the station. And instead of being like this quasi acoustic, you know, boring station, and the station thundered on the you know, it was absolutely rocking, and people go, this guy clearly doesn't understand Philadelphia. You don't get it. It's you don't get it. So the rating was rocketed because of this guy you didn't know anything. It's like literally, you know, instead of you know. But the interesting thing was we didn't strip out the the what mattered. We

didn't strip out the culture. We didn't strip ove. I mean, we still played obscure Springsteen's songs or Graham Parker or you know talking. I mean, it's not like we we just learned to balance those with songs people wanted. It was sort of like, you know, let's let's pull people in with this and then then we can be interesting and do this and we won't lose our character. And so um people really connected with the station. The station just rocketed two and we just clabored the two stations.

Within four months, we had beat both other stations, and then we ended up getting ratings that were almost a seven share in Philly, and I said, it is not going up from here. It is going to go down from here, and everybody's gonna start saying what you do wrong? What did you change? You obviously shifted something and start questioning you. And so I quit when the station went

at was at its height. People go people don't quit when this stage, when you become quote a consultant or work for yourself, whatever it is, you got to leave a losing proposition, and then started you can't leave when you're on top. I said, I'm out of here. So a year and a half later, I moved back to California. Okay, you quit. When did you tell me how you ultimately got what you were talking earlier? It seems like you got the client first and then decided to become a consultant.

How did that play At the very beginning in the genesis of it? Well, I started having calls for to move to First of all, kal O West called me and said, do you want to become program director of the station? I said not really, and the guy was astounded. I said, w MMR is a great station. Why would I leave that station? It's not really. And and because I'm from l A, Bob, it wasn't like I gotta move to l A the big time. I said, yeah,

you mean move home. Yeah, I'll move home. But so I had a So then w P l J New York as you know, Kilos and a station in Rochester, New York called me and said we would like you to work for us and tell us how to do what you did in Philly. You know, I said, okay, I quit. So and they were astounded. They couldn't believe that I quit. Could you make as much money consulting three stations as you had being the program director at MMR, Yes, yes it was. It was not a lot more, but

it was more. So you're consulting three stations. Yeah, I'm sure at the beginning you were heavily involved. What was your magic that ultimately grew your business? Well, I had three stations. When you start out with l A and New York, you get people's attention and and what happened

in Philadelphia really was a very public turnaround. So people noticed it, and so people knew who I was, and uh, they would call you be incoming calls at that point, you know, you'd say, and I remember even turning one down and Providence goes, you're turning me down because you're too tired. I said, I'm full. I can't. So then you start the process. Am I gonna build a company? And you hire other people and that that's what happened. And so you go from that to a hundred period

of you know, like six years. It was crazy. Okay, so you what is the special sauce that you tell these stations? Was every station different? What is the pollock? You know? Plan? Well? Look, I had I had one big competitor who I liked enormously personally, which was Lee Abrams. And uh, he did things a little bit differently because it's a little easier to send out lists and make

everything more um system oriented. Um. I really felt that these stations had to reflect the cities they were in and and and that's what Philly really taught me, because if you went there and listen to the w m R that you have no idea that the guy who was programming the station was from Philip was from Los Angeles, You would have no idea he was as Philly as

can be. It sounded like this guy must have grown up in Jersey or something, and and to be fair, I had great people, so they would tell me when I was off base about something, and I did my homework. You know, I talked to tons of people as the old fashioned walk around everywhere, talk to people, what are you listening to? What do you like? You know, and and not not identify who I was, and you'd hear and understand. Not very scientific, but you know, it's still

kind of worked. So the secret sauce and I thought about this a lot. I was really producing Bob that station more than programming it. The station was. It was exciting and fun and it did weird things. I was able to get some of my weird sense of humor on the air sometimes where people goes, well what did that mean? And I say nothing. I thought it was funny and I put it on the air and some

of the stuff would fall flat. But I mean I remember doing a toast with a steel Ie Span song on who I loved, of course being uncommercial, but I love them. We did a toast for Christmas and I played an acapell a song by them. Because I wasn't afraid that I was going to lose the audience. I just said this would be cool, this would be fun. No, this song doesn't call out this this is but it shows you that if enough is going right, you can break the rules once in a while and still be

kind of interesting. So the secret sauce was let people be themselves. If they needed to help with their playlists and if their way out, yes I'd help them figure that out. But I never wanted to lose the character of the city. I wanted the Rochester station to really reflect that, and I cared a lot. I think that's the reason I was able to work in Europe because very early I worked in Europe and Australia and I

was so conscious of the culture of those countries. I wanted to know who the who the politicians were and what were the cool places to go, and be able to mention things like that in conversations with people so that they saw that, oh, this guy's not I know at all Yank, this guy isn't like America first, this guy actually cares about So I worked in France early on, I worked in England, and in fact that's one of the reasons I worked for MTV International first before MTV,

because they said, well, this guy seems to know Europe really well, which I did. I spent a lot of time there, and I really spent time. I really respect culture. I really think that that's a very important part of understanding people. And so um, I think that's uh something I took from Philadelphia with me throughout. Okay, so you start with three stations, essentially every station that comes thereafter

they're calling you or you ever marketing yourself. Oh after, after I built a company, I definitely would chase the station or and I would love to take a station away from Abrahams if I could. You know, you know, I said, you've got a lot of stations. I'm just gonna steal this went away from you, you know. So uh we never uh. People couldn't understand why I could be so aggressive on the air or with what I

was doing and being polite in person. And just because you're aggressive doesn't mean you have to lose your manners, right, You don't have to be a jerk. So um and and so I think we we we got to a point where we had a lot of stations, and I brought in more people, and then and then the company grew and I started working internationally, which I loved, which was really interesting to me because Okay, before we get there, so it's you. Then you start hiring people who have

really big jobs. Tommy Hodges, yes, he's a program director. What is your pitch to these people to leave the stations come work for you? Um? Well, Tommy was the program director in Boston, and I convinced him to take the l A job, the kale Os job. I really needed a program director because I was suddenly like I moved to l A on something like the program director. I'm not the program director. That's not what I signed up.

We need a program director. So I had met him and really liked him enormously, and I said, would you take this job and go straight? He came out and then he decided not to come. So I waited a couple of weeks, I said, called him over and said any regrets he goes, yeah, I said, good, come now so he can. That's part of being you know, not

giving up on somebody, you know. So he came and then five years after he was at kale O s I said, you know, I said to him, and we did this with with his boss to make sure that he was cool. I said, um, he loved the idea of traveling around and talking to other people, because you know, once you've been at a station for a long time, the idea of traveling and meeting new people and working with other people was very interesting, and and so he joined up uh five years after klaws. How do you

decide what to charge the station? There's a going rate and you do by bye bye. Well there was before I started, and there was um and it would be by market size, so you know, it might be a month in Rochester, it might be three K a month and l A, you know, but then the then it

changed and you know, the more competitors. The guy goes, well, you know, I I do it for two km months, you know, and you know, so it was it was that kind of after that started happening, and especially when the the rolled around, I saw the writing on the wall goes, okay, so you're gonna let these companies get really big by their competitors and eliminate competition. That doesn't sound like fun, because if I don't have to be great to win, then I don't need to hire anybody.

And then I said, okay, that feels like, you know, there's gonna be a timer on how much we're able to do here. Okay, you go from being a guy in Denver to controlling a hundred stations. How does that? You know, you're a guy who grew up in music, you're suddenly meeting your heroes. Well, what did that feel like? And how did what we do take advantage work with that? Well? I think that you he sort of never imagine you're

going to meet these people, Bob. You know, if you grow up admiring whoever it was, UM, and at some point their career and your career converges, and that is mind blowing and you need to always be mindful. I don't think I ever lost the perspective of why people, UM, we're excited to meet you if you're an artist. You know, it was the chair I was sitting in. It wasn't like I was a great guy. Okay, now I happened

to be somebody who was enthusiastic about music. I wasn't interested in, you know, manipulating any kind of relationship so that you know, I could I feel like I was super powerful or anything else. I I didn't like that game. I don't like that aim. It's not what I'm interested in. I like honestly, being able to tell somebody what you think of their record or or that you're going to be supportive. And so that was that was an interesting moment.

But I knew all along those things shift and suddenly if it was radio, and then it was MTV, and then it was Spotify, those gatekeepers. It's a transitory thing, right, and it's uh something that and it's not like radio still isn't super important. It is, but there's so many other platforms doing it that you know, it's something that you you just have to realize that we're your places in the universe. Now, are any of the celebrities real

friends or is it all business friends? I have some real friends, um that I They're not a lot, though, Bob, there's not a lot, because give me one or two people might be real friends. I'd rather not mention them by name, um, if you don't mind. But I do have some people who are interested in how my kids are doing, and they remember my birthday and they like to have dinner even if I can't not in a position to you know, those are real friends. And I

think you learned that. Look, I had Midwest parents, you know, they not common sense into me. A long time ago. I never was nature, I suppose, especially growing up in a city like this. You know, your you know, your next door neighbor's dad writes on a TV show and you So it wasn't you know, it wasn't remarkable. But I think you know, you know, I really respect the job these people do. They put themselves out there, and

I think they recognize that. Um, how I view the process, you know, Okay, Now, certainly at the end of the heyday of rock radio, uh, Jeff McCluskey had his business. Then it was about people can't see my air quotes about owning a record and if you didn't pay him, or it was everybody at this point. Well, I'm just asking you they would keep your record off? To what degree? Did that in fact or did you have to do that your business? I did. It didn't interact with me

at all. That wasn't because you because you were already out or you could do it your way. I could do it my way. And also, people know if you are straight, are not, and they knew that that's the way I was, you know, So you know, it wasn't anything that I wasn't on a power trip and I didn't care about that stuff. Okay, do you ever tell an act this is what you need to do on your record? I think it's the problem is like what

Jimmy Iving said to me once. He said, if if an artist really wants to have my honest opinion, don't hand me and c D and plastic. I mean, that's perfect, but sometimes people are in the beginning of the project as opposed to the end. I think what you can do, Bob is, look, you have really good ears. I have really good ears because we've done it a long time. Okay, we kind of know what the market likes and doesn't like. We can separate are personal opinion from what perhaps the

market opinion might because there's obviously two separate things. But I'll certainly if somebody says, what do you think the lead track ought to be? Or what do you think the single should be? I'm happy to do that. I'm not always right, but you know, if you make an album, you have no clue. I can't tell you how many times people come and here's the single. I go, no, that's not you know, if you're you're involved in making a record, you just cannot I agree totally they have

no sense. But the worst have no idea. They have no idea, and so if you can provide a service when I say a service in opinion and say hey, this is what I think the song should be. I remember being backstage at a K rock concert Um, and the label at the time was talking about moving on from Clocks from Coldplay because it wasn't a hit. I said, you are nuts, give it time. That song is a hit. You know what it's like, they're you know the the you know, if it's not happening, let's move on. And

it's even worse now, right, It's got to happen right now. Okay, So in your tenure as a consultant, tell me a couple of records that you really feel responsible for making successful. By myself, there was none but um helping gosh. Um. That's interesting. It's a lot of years. I probably can remember more from I think just being an early supporter of of bands that ended up being really good, like Dires,

Straits or something where you'd go. I remember the Warner's rep from Boston came to see me in Philadelphia and this was the time, Bob that they had every band had a weird name, fabulous poodles, blah, blah blah blah blah, and most of those bands were mediocre. And so I go into the place where the record people would wait for you until you were done, you know, talking to somebody, and I look around and there's like this librarian. This woman looks like in the library. Because Hi, I'm the

Warner's rep. I go, nice to meet you. What do you got? Well, I got this band, Dire Straits, I said, oh my god, another name which is And then you hear Saltan's swing and you flip out because you haven't heard anything like that. So I'd like to think that there was a number of circumstances along the way where I would have heard something great and supported it early.

I know that I was probably late, like everybody was on never mind, I think I think that was again one of the times when the public was way ahead of the gatekeepers. We were behind, they were ahead. I asked the manager of Nirvana at the time, you remember, Danny Goldberg, well and I and I talked to him a couple of months after. I said, what is happening with this record? He goes, I have no idea, which was the honest way to look at it. It was guess what. Sometimes the public is ahead of you, and

that's that's what happened. Okay, So tell me how you spread into Europe and Australia. Oh, in Australia, I got a call from Brisbane in nineteen it was the early eighties and he goes, hey, we read about you and our radio records. Uh, we can't pay you anything, which is always a good great sales I've I've used that in the future. I can't can't pay you anything, but we'll bring you down here to Australia. And so I said, you know, and of course at that time, what do

you have to lose? Right? So you go down see Koala bears for the first time. It's awesome. And in two years I had five clients there in all the major cities. And I guess it's because you know, you had I had an attitude like, well why not, you know, give it a go. Not everything has to be driven by money, you know. I have faith, have faith that something good can happen. You know you don't do today, Bob, I don't make music documentaries because it's financially rewarding. I

can assure you that there are other ways. Um, but you must have been doing quite well in the heyday of the Consultancy, which ran for a good number of Yes, it did, and I did well, And I'm not complaining. I'm I'm I am grateful, and I think that, you know, the fact that I can do something on a band that I grew up with like The Doors now, like Jim Morrison, is mind blowing to me. And guess what I want to do, Bob is I want to race

that image from Oliver Stone's movie I Am Determined. I sort of have a little mission in my head and about some of these things. And well we'll get a little bit more into that. But once you start making real money, what do you do with it? I but the house, That's pretty much it. And and then I got married and I had less money. So but you know, I I wasn't you know, I was fortunate. Look, I was just a DJ, and I was just a guy

worked at a commercial free station. I look at the fact that I could make a good living doing this and to be around music and to meet staying once in a while, that was cool, right. You gotta be grateful. Absolutely, So how did you get into Europe? Europe? Was um, I'm trying to think. I remember it was the mid

eighties and I started working UM. I did a project for europe One, which was a news outlet, a gigantic national like the BBC kind of of of France, and they were they wanted to start an FM station, So I launched an FM hot a C station and and the thing with France, of course, it's a national signal,

it's not just Paris goes everywhere. And I started working for a French company and I put on the first station in Moscow, you know, several years later, and in Prague, and it was really amazing being in Eastern Europe and uh being part of it. That's really what I felt like.

I was doing something interesting. It wasn't just about up UM radio is for for them, it was what they listened to when they were you know, uh, part of the you know, the Iron Curtain and UM when these stations came out UM and it was really a part of the new freedom that these these countries had an experience, and it was great to be part of that. Okay, now you were in America, were known as an A. O. R.

Guy album rock? Was that what you sold around the world or did you Taylor the playlist for whatever mark I mean, yeah, obviously tailored to a degree, But was that the sound you were putting on these varying stations, you know, I think Australia, Yes, they were pretty much rock stations, heavily dominated by Australian bands, of which there were a lot, and like Hanada, Australia had a rule at the time where I think it was of all the music had to be from Australia. That wasn't the

case in Europe. But in Europe there were no there was no rock. We weren't doing rock there. It was it was pop, it was hot a c um, it was a mixture um. And of course our French network, which we've worked with for a very long time, Skyrock, is a hip hop network. So so it was it was like, I mean, I was known as a rock guy, but as as I mentioned earlier, I I sort of was a I like rock a lot, but I mean

I had other musical interests, you know. Okay, So in radio rock radio there's a couple of very specific schisms. One you mentioned was Nirvana, but really an earlier one will put it eighty one, between eighty and eighty two, we had this free format station in Pasadena, the last free format station in l A. Suddenly Rick Carroll gets involved. It's now the rock of the eighties. It's top forty of what was then considered alternative and breaks, soft sell

Tainted Love and Humanly, Don't You Want Me? And the other rock station certainly came et, didn't go on those new songs, immediately came et, ultimately flipped format. What was it like being in the trenches when all of a sudden this sound came along. Rick was a very talented guy, Rick Carroll, and he kind of ignored what was going on there and recognized that there was a new sound that he could capitalize that wasn't the heavy rock sound.

That there was this sort of pop alternative I guess for a lack of a better term, I hate genre titles, but anyway, um, but he ended up finding that, you know, sort of rock stations wouldn't play the Cure and Depeche Mode. He did, and they had huge audience and he put them. What was interesting is he would put songs in a very quick rotation, but because the music was so different, it was really fresh and and it was one of

the sort of extraordinary stories of the eighties. Was that really um it sounded more like a radio station you'd hear in England, frankly or in Australia. It had that you know, that sensibility fun jocks. I mean, it was really a good experience and he was super smart. Okay, But as I say, traditional A O. R. Did not go on all those songs, and most of those stations ultimately flipped the classic rock you know, they played the older they were behind there a new market, new station

in the market. What was it like being a consultant when all of a sudden this wedge comes in and there hasn't been anything like it for years. Well, we played some of those songs on some of the alternative stations, like we played Human League, and you know you can't. It's like country radio deciding not to play little NASAs. I mean, what are they like idiots. It's it's a hits, It's a gigantic hit and and you can't arbitrarily make judgments like that or you'll go down. You'll go down fast.

It's like the Grammys deciding Casey Musgraves or Brandy Carlisle can't be in a particular category. I mean, like who is living in a seven and these there, man. I mean, that is like ridiculous. And if you talk to any kids and the reason why the kids won't relate to the Grammys, they don't even understand it when you talk about genres, don't even know what you're talking about. They listen, they like it. They either like it or they don't

like it. They like Bowie and they like Jake Cole and they don't they're not They don't say oh my, my son doesn't say, oh Dad, I'm gonna listen to a rock song. Now, they go, I like that song, I don't like it. It's fine, it's cool, it's interesting, you know. And I think that's that kind of mentality

that you're referring to. Bob did exist, and it led to certain stations becoming completely irrelevant because, you know, if you're just playing to the super super core without trying to expand your audience or at least give them something fresh. I mean, don't you want me what a great single

that is. It may not be high art, but it sure is great to listen to, you know, it's sure, and a lot of the Cure songs and everything else, so you know, rock rock did have an internal debate about what is rock, which is hard to believe looking back now, right it's like, what were you guys thinking? What do you like? I remember when they're saying, well as Coldplay rock or is it is like is a song good or not? Is? Do you like it? Does it fit what you're doing? You know? So okay, let's

jump to MTV tell us again. They called you because you had footprint in Europe. Tell us about your history with MTV. Well, I got a call from Tom Preston, who I remained close with today, one of the all time great guys, and he produced me to Bill Rhadi, who was um running an MTV Europe it just started, and I knew a lot about Europe and um um and they thought I could help them with what was

programming music pretty much that was full time music. You know, you would be uh, you know they had and at that time it was a pan European channel, which of course couldn't last forever as long as you didn't have a you know, a German competitor or a French competitor. But as soon as you did, you were in trouble, you know. But I work with them then I started working with the US channels and cmt VH one. So what are you doing for these companies? It would depend

on what era we're talking about it. If it's the music era, I'm helping them figure out, you know, what the music balance should be. And again I think about the trip I went to MTV Russia and they were having trouble with their ratings and I look at the channel. It looks like a British channel. I go, where the Russian acts? Oh, well, you know, we want to play some of the international hits. I go, You're not gonna get anybody to watch this if you don't support your

own acts. Now, it didn't take a genius Bob to figure that out. But for me, you was the most obvious thing because I said, you know, you have a huge music scene here. You've got to support these acts, you know, um, and then play the international ones. That makes sense. So a lot of the initial stuff was common sense. Uh. And I was able to work with a lot of great talented programmers that I'm still friends with today, you know, and they're doing other things, most

of them, but um. So that was the first phase, and then as it got competitive, when we had to switch from a Pan European channel to the local channels, and then suddenly we launched local channels. So suddenly we're up against Viva in Germany and you know and the local you know, the local music channels in each one. So then it's you know, how do we use the MTV programming that the international audience is interested in and

be local enough that people care about you. So that was you know, that was a big balancing act for for a lot of years after that. And what about when you worked in the US, Well, we were obviously UM music and then we launched the what was what came to be known as MTV two. So I was involved with that UM and then it would be music events, UM. You know, I always UM was interest did in new technology UM, and so I learned more and more about

what digital platforms might provide. So that was something that that I spent some time on as well. And that was in the more in the double ohs than the nineties. The nineties was really the transition to UM, you know two programming at MTV that was there to get ratings, you know, it wasn't you know, Okay, So the uh, the centuries change, and this is one of the few cases with MTV where the audience is behind the station. Now they're going on to the MTV Video Music Awards

saying play more videos, etcetera. Tom Preston said to me, you know, we're never gonna play videos. That's an on demand item online. Then of course, you know, he gets kicked up, then he gets fired. That's it in your estimation. Was there any way to save those channels. It's really hard to remain relevant to your target audience and grow. But MTV did it for a really long time. The fact that they could actually and whether it was with you know, Jersey Shore or whatever programming that they did,

they managed to do you know, sixteen and Pregnant. They managed to do it through shows and they were able as long as Tom was there and Judy and Van, as long as the central core of the people and the people they attracted. They really didn't care about yes, the heritage of music, but but but about creating new things. That it was a culture of creativity. That's why so many people who are alumni have gone onto these amazing jobs.

But once that team was gone, once Tom was gone and then Judy and then Van, you know, um, it was very very difficult to attract the kind of talent that would keep uh MTV at the top of their game. So they you know, it's really really difficult to suddenly say, oh, here we are again, were relevant, You should care about us. And I would never count them out because you know, they're just several great ideas away from recapturing the zeitgeist. But you can't. You know, my kids didn't grow up

watching MTV. You know, that wasn't what they did. You know, it was something you know, and they're on TikTok on Instagram, And I think that there was a period of time when really good people were leaving the company and the investment wasn't happening, and really critical time when things were shifting in a huge way and MTV, you know, didn't shift with it. So now now now it's a question of rebooting and they have new people and they're going to have to see if they can come back with

a whole new offering. You know. So how did you end up working for Spotify? And what year was that? Um that was again me being interested in you know, I was on I'm probably like you were probably two of the Americans who are on the early demo from Europe and thinking, oh my god, this is incredible. UM, and I met Daniel through some people, and UM, there was a period of time where they weren't very artist friendly. Let's say that they really, especially when Jimmy took him

to task. I mean, Jimmy was Mr. Artist friendly. So originally they brought me up, you know, brought me into sort of help on the artist relationship side of things on how because you know, look, they're tech guys, so they that wasn't really in their d n A and that was something I could help them with. Okay, So at this point in time, let's leave Deezer as a secondary outfit. It's really nothing much in the US, especially now that are alternatives for high risk. There are three

major players, Apple, Spotify, Amazon. Obviously the record industry wants them all to be doing well because they can play them off each other. How does this all play out? I think that five years from now, UH all three will be with us and successful because they're all doing it differently. Amazon's using their giant, giant footprint to allow you to access their music UH at a less expensive opportunity, and obviously, you know, using Alexa to help drive that, Um,

Apple's doing a solid job. Look, Spotify as the leader, and once you're the leader, and you don't screw up if you continue to do what they do. I think to Daniel's credit, he was always focused on the service and on the U I right, and he wanted it to be easy to use and didn't get distracted. He didn't start saying, Okay, let me invest a lot of money in exclusives. I mean, that was one of the things when I was there, is don't your right. Don't

do exclusives. They don't matter. People don't know. They just don't know, you know. I remember from my radio days. I could be playing a song that was out for six months and people call up it goes, hey, man, I love that new song from you know, fill in the blank. You know, they don't know when it comes out. We in the industry now, but they didn't know. So I think, uh that we'll see all three of them do more bundling. Whether somebody decides to buy Spotify, I

suppose that's possible. Um, but I think that they're going to have to continue to shift. I mean, look, the move to podcasting has been a very important move by them to capture advertising revenue because of the fact that there seems to be somewhat of a heeling on how

much they can make from subscriptions. Um, and they want the price to go down, and the artists want the price to go up right for per stream you know, um, you know, I think that it's um, it's going to be a tumultuous next several years in terms of that that particular struggle. Okay, let's jump to the end. What's the status of radio today? Here's your issue with radio. First of all, there are a lot of really good people trying to do their best and are doing their best.

This is the role of radio today. I think you have Look, I just read a new survey from a couple of days ago which you might have seen, about music discovery and where adults are finding new music, and it was a huge lead for Spotify and streaming services over radio. And I think that, I mean, look, we got all debate what music discovery really is. Is Phoebe Bridgers music discovery the first time you hear her, even

though she's been out for a year. I think that though radios function in the ecosystem is to slam the accelerator down on a record that's already been getting some heat. It is the It is taking a song and making it omni present. That's a different role than in going there first to hear new songs. Now you might say a really good Top forty and Top forty is back stronger than ever. Um, you will hear songs for the

first time. The thing that radio still does well is curate, and that's the thing they should focus in on going forward. They curate. They end up taking a song that has created some heat, whether it's on TikTok or Instagram or just is viral, and if they jump on it, they can you know, set a fire to it. They can be arsonists with with a song. But there are so many other places to hear songs. First. I don't even

think they should worry about that. Okay, how about you know, I hear from radio all the time they say things are better than ever. I talked to people under the age of twenty. They never listen to commercial radio, never ever. Okay, then listen to this series. Yes, that's a different thing. Never ever. So what's gonna happen here. What's going to happen is that, first of all, there's a large amount of people who listen to the radio every week. Those

numbers are true. How long may listen is the issue, because the issue is whether they will be there. The young are not listening to radio like they used to. It just they just aren't. And when the easier it becomes to listen in the car to your own playlist, is what you're gonna do. And the fact that some automobiles no longer have an AM radio, I mean, that's unbelievable. And I I want to listen to the Dodger game and I gotta listen to it on you know, an

HD two channel. You know. So, but there there, they have a significant role. They continue to have a significant role. People. They're not sexy, so people tend to throw them over. But um, if they understand the role. It's still a good business. If you didn't overpay for a station, and you do a good job in your community, you know. I I'm a firm believer that you know, you make a good living with it and you you can be

you know, and it's all about being part of the city. Um. But it is a different role than it used to be. And and attracting younger the younger audience is a significant issue for them, and they will just have to continue doing And look at they're doing all the things they possibly can. I heart with their streaming and you know, um what Odyssey is doing, and Um and Cumulus, So I think, um, and these are these these are smart people just trying to figure out how they can continue

to evolve and attract a younger audience. But they have so many competitors that it's very difficult to see where this ends up for the under thirty crowd, you know, in the next five years. Okay, is rock dead? It's on life support? Is it dead? I mean, when's the last time you heard a great rock album? You know, when is the last time that that any of us got excited that something entered the culture that actually, uh, it is a very you know, the electric guitar has

gravitated the country music. Um, there's hardly any rock bands around. Nobody wants to be considered rock, you know. I mean, if Coldplay is making records with bts, you gotta start saying yourself, Okay, that tells me more about the status of rock than about anything else. You know. So, um, it's a very challenging time. And you know, and how many rock acts are really attracting a large live audience that aren't over fifty None. Yeah, none, except for maybe

twenty one pilots. I mean there's very few bands that can. So there's there are exceptions. But when was the last time there was a great rock album? Are we going back to okay computer? Are we going back to all that you can't leave behind? Are you going back to you know um Bruce's album? Uh from uh the you know the Rising Um It's it's bleak out there. If you want to be in a rock band. Uh. And I'm insistative to this because my son plays rock music.

Keep mentioning your children, how old are your children? And which is your son? The twenty year old? So he plays in a rock band? Yeah, And I don't know what to tell him about. Let's go the other way. There is a business, just like there was a music business before the Beatles. But for those of us who lived through the Beatles the seventies until it imploded at the end of the seventies then resuscitated by MTV, we saw music and the music represented something different than it

does today. Now. People still were working in the business and they're stripping away people of our vintage constantly say oh, it's the same as it ever was. It's not, but I want your take on it. If we're looking at the music out there, you know. And the other thing about it is, yes, music is available everywhere on TikTok. It is about using the music for your own personal expression.

What is going on with the music? Okay, most of the excitement and innovation and danger and unexpected uh emotion and music that resonates in the culture is coming in hip hop. Rock lost that rock used to be. That rock had those attributes, and I think that it's a

huge part of why. When you're not part of the culture and you're just making songs and you're not singing about anything that's particularly important, it gravitates and it moves and it evolves, and if you connect the dots, you suddenly see that Nipsey Hustle and j Cole and Kanye West are the rock stars of today and they're in and it's they're exciting and they're doing things differently and they're challenging you and um and for rock to make

a comeback, it's going to have to understand that. You know, it's not just about the songs. Well, you know, Josh how to say day and now is a very minor thing. Is rock itself just played out? Well? Rock is? It feels like it's sort of a niche format. Now. If you said that me ten years ago, I would I would have believed you. But if you look at the history of the last thirty years, the last twenty five years, uh,

that's what's happening. And is rock played out? We know for certain that it is in a very weak place creatively and in terms of relevance. It used to be when an album came out, it was everywhere. You heard it everywhere. It was like songs in the Key of Life, which was everywhere, or it was you know, it was okay, computer you heard everywhere? Or everything is but there aren't you know, you have to be part of a conversation that's bigger than what rock is doing. Now it seems

like it's a conversation between two people, not the world. Okay, and do you think you know we have the Spotify Top fifty. But in terms of overall reach, the example I always use is listening to Top forty radio in the sixties. I knew every lick of Hello Dolly and Strangers in the night because I had to wait to hear the Beatles songs. They want to miss anything British invasion, whereas today you can talk to an incredible number of people they haven't they've never heard the number one song,

not only oldsters. So this nitrification, is it just going to continue to go this way or is there will there ultimately be hits that everybody gravitates to. Well, you've pinpointed the issue about awards shows, haven't you, Because ultimately

what's a hit to somebody? They don't really care about the awards and they certainly don't care about these categories and genres that are being attached on the confuses people they've stopped watching the award shows because they can just watch the highlights that they want to watch for the artists they already like on YouTube, right they there no one's gonna sit through a three hour show when you can watch, you know, your favorite act for a minute

or two. And so there really isn't a central place, and that's why there is still a role for terrestrial radio to play in their various cities by looking to be the central place that defines what are hits or what is getting played so that people know them, um, because everywhere or you go, everybody has their their own list of what's a hit. Okay, every week on Thursday, you send out an email with five tracks. Check out how do you find those five tracks? There? They can

frequently be in diverse genres. That is for myself. I've all my life, I've pick songs, you know, either for music channels or radio or everything else. So I get to do this now. I get to pick five songs. I don't worry about whether some of them aren't popular at all and never get popular. I don't care. So I so I go through all the Spotify new releases and get it down to about fifteen and then pick five.

And they can be in country, they can be a pop, they can be in hip hop and not making a big statement, they're just making Hey, these are the five songs I like this week. You know I'm not picking up two further appearance on the Grammys, I don't care. Tell us about the creation of the Laurel Canyon movie documentary that was on ultimately dreamed on Cable. Well, we started working on that project um some years ago UM and it was a really great experience because we originally

had been asked to do a film by Epics. Epics really was interested in it, and there of course had been another Lawer Canyon Dock, which um had come out while we were working on our. Okay, so yours was very different. There's was more exhaustive. To what degree do

you think reception was hindered by theirs coming first? I don't think so much now at all, because I think I think initially there was some confusion, but because of the how well, you know, our Laurel Canyon doc didn't we got nominated for some awards and things, and I think that we you know, we also heard from a lot of the artists who were featured on it that

really appreciated how they were depicted. So, you know, we just wanted to do a really good doc and originally was supposed to be one part, and then they said, oh, let's do two parts because it's a lot to cover, and then we had we we sent in it was supposed to be fifty five minutes. We sent in an hour and twenty cut and we got this note back that you will never get another note back in the history of doing music docs, and that will never happen again. I can tell you this. The note back was don't

cut anything. It was like what So they were an amazing partner you. I mean you get to put little feet and of a documentary. Who you know who does that? And so that's why we're able to make it so that, you know, I just got so many notes from artists saying thank you for just saying the way it was. This actually happened this way. And we're lucky enough to to license over a hundred songs from that era, Bob. And you can imagine the songs like California Dream and

Sweet Judy Blue Eyes, on and on and on. You're saying, oh my gosh, but you know it was I mean, I grew was your what was your pitch? Because normally you would have just blown your budget, um times a number just on the songs. Well, we couldn't. They have what's called most Favorite Nations, as you know, and we just said this is what we can pay we we we can't. You can't include all that music and then make exceptions. You can't do it. So fortunately, um and

this is where the relationships come in, Bob. A sort of people said, look, we like what you've done before. We trust that this will be good. We like Allison Elwood, you know, we like your eagle Stock, we like you, we like the people involved. Um And fortunately people really came back to us and said, okay, you sustained our belief in in this. And for me being a Californian and growing up that was my music. You know. Look,

it's we also wanted to make expand the audience. I mean, to me, a big part of doing these projects is can I somehow create new fans. I don't want to just preach to the choir. I saw the new Todd Haynes movie a lot of heat on that, okay, um round Velot Underground it and watched it. I just you know, for me, it was for the super fan, you know. And if you're a super fan, you'll love it. But if you're if you are hoping to make a large your audience for the Velvet Underground, it didn't do it

because it's very, very down a rabbit hole. And and for me, I hope with it. Whether it's Jim Morrison or the monkey Stock we're going to do, or some of the other things, you know, whether it's cash or whatever we do, we would like to say we want to give people a chance to come in and experience

these artists and see why they were so special. That's really a goal of mine with these things that I'm doing, is can I somehow open the door to new people that aren't just super fan Because if you're preaching to the converter, then you're not really making much more than the other ones that might have come before you, if you know what I mean. So you say you have a specific way you want to do the Doors rescued from the Oliver Stone portrayal, how do you plan to

do it? We're gonna bust all those myths. I can tell you that so much stuff that was in that movie didn't happen, and it was There are so many things that uh Jim was like, but when you talked to the living members of the Doors, or you're talking to Bill Siddons or everything else, they don't I didn't even recognize that guy that was in that movie. That

was Oliver's movie. What about the guy who said, come into my room and it's filled with books, Pull down one book, read a passage to me, and I'll tell you what book that is. Where's that guy? He wasn't an movie? Where about the guy who was so loyal to the band, believe it or not. Robbie Krieger, at his brand new book which is coming out this month, said that Jim had no ego. Now think about that, think about the Lizard King. But he never wanted to be Jim Morrison and the Doors. He hated that he

was always the Doors. It was his idea to divide the royalties between the band. You know, he was He never had any money. He didn't even own a house. You know, this guy was really he was like a classic artist. And his poetry is you know, I've seen a lot of his poetry books are are beautiful. This is a guy who did it. Was he a drunk, Yes, he was a drunk, but like a lot of drunks, he also was, you know, an amazingly interesting person. And if you listen to his interviews, you hear a guy

searching for the right word. I've had to look up some of his words because of his vocabulary. This was a very very smart, intelligent man. And so if you said to me, what would you like to accomplish that hasn't be said, is I would like to give a reappraisal of the lead singer of the Doors as to both sides of what he was like, not the guy who got drunk and fell off the stage and oh, by the way, did not light a closet on fire

with his girlfriend, and because that didn't happen. I mean, if you read Robbie's book, he goes down, he lists all the things that never happened. You know, listen, following things did not happen. So and you know, unfortunately that film is left an impression that the alver Stone film of what he was like and what the Doors are like. Now, some positive things came out of it for the Doors because it reignited some interest in them. But if you

remember the family, it's not a guy you recognize. And what can you add to the monkeys, Well, the monkeys are um. I think what's interesting about the monkeys is they were super fun and I think what's a what's really interesting to consider is how close all the other members of the Laurel Canyon scene were with the monkeys. They were their buddies and they didn't judge them on oh you guys are your music isn't great? Or you know what? Everything? They were funny. If you see the

Peter Tork audition for the Monkeys. I don't know if you ever seen that, really a funny guy. And he actually even sat in the chair. He went over and sat in the chair of the director, and you know, I mean, that's that's good. So I'd like to show them how fun they were there since the humor. You know, John Lennon was a big fan because he thought they were sort of like the Marx Brothers. Now, um, you know, but they also had some amazing songwriters right for them.

So I think it's gonna be interesting to sort of visit. I think we still have a lot to work on from there, but they're not gonna be We're not gonna treat him like just this TV thing. I mean, this show is only on for two years. Isn't an amazing I know, it's mind blowing, isn't it. And then all these people who who grew they say, I grew up with the Monkeys. Oh really, how old are you? I'm forty?

Oh right. I watched it on MTV because that was the first time that the Monkeys ended up having that next generation effect was people watching it, and and in in the eighties when they watched it, because they never said and if you watch him today, I have a friend of mine who shows it to his kids and the kids love it. So something, you know, something's pretty

special about that. Okay, Malcolm Gladwell, and I don't agree with a lot of his recent stuff, but ten years ago, when Steve Jobs died, he said Steve Jobs will not be remembered fifty or a hundred years from now. It's certainly looking like he is right. Who of these rock acts survive? We're alive, we know them. You know, Neil Diamond, he can't go on the road because he's sick. Never mind, they're dropping left and right, so we can't see these

Elvis businesses down. Memorabiliac are because the audience is dead. So from our rock era, whose music survives? I mean, I think it's an easier question perhaps when you look at individual songs, you know, but um I think Bowie survives. Um I think Johnny Cash survives. Um I think the Eagles survive because if you look at that crazy five top five hundred in the Rolling Stone, you know, which you and I talked about about, and we know why

people do countdowns. I did him myself, and I was at a radio station count down to get people mad. So they engage. It's the whole trick. But you know, and by the way, Desperado was not on that list, and that song he's going to be listened to hundreds of years from now. It's one of the all time great songs. It's like a someone to watch over me. That's how good it is, you know. Uh so, But it's gonna be interesting to see which bands I think

it's it's it's a it's a tough question. With the Beatles, of course, uh who for me is a timeless group. That Kinks are a timeless group. Um, but will they be in a hundred years? Hard to know whether people will say, are they gonna come all the way back and listen to the music, Let's go your way? What are the songs that will survive. There's a number of Beatles songs, you know. I think that there's a number of Stevie Wonder songs and Paul Simon, um, Bruce um,

you know, Marvin Gay, Uh, Billy Holiday. I can't imagine people won't listen to Strange Fruit a hundred years from now, um Sinatra, um. You know. There's it's really an interesting thing. I remember sitting around table with a band who I'm friendly with and we were talking about what are hundred year songs? And that's a great question. Then I started counting back there's someone to watch over me, and I realized that's five years old, right right? Oh my god.

And it doesn't get any better than that. So, you know, it's that's a much more interesting thing than than to come up with a countdown or or a top whatever, because you know, there are songs that just say a lot about America or about the world at large. Um. You know that a song like Yesterday will never be forgotten, you know. Um. So it's a that is a very interesting exercise and a big one too. It's really hard to have the perspective of will this song last? You know,

well will it? Will it last? And it? And how does it become a standard? How does it become something that becomes part of Well, you know, it's very interesting because all the songs you mentioned are based on melody, whereas today's Spotify Top fifty is all based on rhythm and beats, and will that decrease its longevity? Well, melody will never go away, as the basic thing isn't you know? It's the basic core. I mean, Chuck Berry is somebody who will always be remembered because I sort of think

of him as are our Bach where everything follows. I had a friend of mine say to me once, he said, you know, if you erased all the music that came after Bach and he was still there, it would still happen. And I think the same thing about Chuck Berry. Yeah, it's amazing where it all came from. It all came from him. He started. He's ground zero. So that's what's what's interesting, you know. And I think of you know, we're we're really lucky to live in a time that

has seen so much, so much change. But the songs will be embraced by by generations of people that have melody. They're not going to just you know, will satisfaction survive maybe, but maybe it's but that's more of a beat. It has to have something else, it has to be part of something that you know. And and it's hard to explain Desperado to somebody who doesn't get it because it says so much about America, America that's maybe no longer with us America, of the of as we all, as

Americans look back to our history. Somehow that song managed to do it well, of course you and me both know, never a hit single, Never a hit single. It is the triumph of the live show, every show, and you you know, it's your You can talk to people who don't even really seem to be such music fans. They'll start testifying about Desperado. Yeah, well, you know, Don Don and company wrote a song that that's for the ages.

It's for the ages, and so it's you know, I think the things that remind us of our history that have something to say and also are very simple. You know, Yesterday is incredibly simple song. And and the Beatles actually have several songs. I mean, as much as I love a day and of life, is it really going to be remembered a hundred years from now? Hard to see that. But maybe something like here Comes the Sun is who knows?

I mean, I don't think any of us really know, and there probably aren't that many songs that maybe you choose one is a which is a wonderful song. I don't think anything from You Too survives. I mean this is a separate conversation from that same Abbey Road album Something Survives survives despite the great second side Come Together that survives, and uh, there are a lot of bands it out a specific sound. I mean, some of these people who good friends of mine, but you're not going

to be listening to their music down the road. It's these standards. In any event, Jeff, I think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known here. Thanks so much for taking the time. You know, I think we just hit the high points. There's a lot of deeper stuff I certainly have questions about, but this is as long as we can go today. Thanks so much for having any Bob really appreciated. Until next time, This is Bob Less