Jason Flom

he became and it wasn't. I mean, I just know for those who don't know, there's a huge section on Jason's father in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers that tells a lot of his story. Now, he ultimately got into a mergers and acquisitions and other things. So when you're growing up, what was the status of his career? Right? So this, the chapter about my dad and Outliers is called the Three Lessons of Joe Flam, and I can talk about him.

We spend the whole pocast talking about him because he was my hero and my role model and everything and my mentor, etcetera. So are my most important mentor. But The amazing thing about my dad is that he was the son of immigrants who spoke no English. They spoke Yiddish. He grew up so poor that in Brooklyn in those days, you could your first month's rent was free if you would move into an apartment. So they would move every

month for a period of years. Apparently they moved every month, just my dad and his sister, Flow and their parents. And yeah, my sister's name was Flow Flam, which is kind of funny, but it's true. So anyway, um so, yeah, he went to City College at night. Well what did the father do for a living? He was a labor organizer, but he's unemployed most of the time. And I think his mother was like an unemployed seamstress or something. Um so, uh so, may I went to City College at night,

but you can graduate. Because World War two broke out, so he went to the army. And when he got out of the army, he would letter to Harvard Law School and he said, I don't have any money and I don't have a college degree, but I'm the best thing since sliced bread, and if you let me, and

you won't regret it. And they gave him a full scholarship, and then he went on to become of course, you know, some people say the greatest lawyer of the twenties century, certainly the greatest corporate lawyer of the twentieth century by anybody's estimation. So you're growing up, what's the status of his career. So the first time I realized that he was, you know, sort of a big mucketing muck was when the New York Times we used to get New York

Times delivered. I still do. I like the actual paper. I read the paper too. It's study when you read it online, you missed certain stuff. So my dad showed up on the front page of the New York Times and I saw his picture on. So he didn't tell you it was gonna be just the I'm not sure if he knew, because it wasn't a picture of him. It was a picture of him, you know, with doing something. But um, I remember saying to that day I got dad, I don't know why this occurred to me. I was

like that are we rich? And he was like, no, I don't know what you mean whatever, because you know, I mean, we lived nicely, but it wasn't like Limos, and you know, we flew coach and it wasn't like you know, I mean, I'm not listen. I know I'm privileged. I know I was born. The spoon wasn't silvery, yeah, but it turned silver while was growing up. And I was a child of private schools and etcetera. But um, the you know, I had less allowance than my friends

and things like that. I think my parents were pretty careful to keep And my dad told my brother and I that he was gonna give all his money to charity. So he's like, whatever I make because going away. So you guys better go make your own. And are you the older brother, younger brother? I'm a younger brother, And where's your older brother today? My older Brother's a great story because my older brother was born almost two and

a half months early and almost didn't survive. They didn't know how to deal with that so well back then, and he, uh famously, the doctor came out and said to my mother, your son's gonna live, but he's never going to go to college or anything like that. And so he had severe learning disabilities and physical problems and coordination problems, and uh so when it came time to go to school, there were no schools for kids like him because he wasn't technically in any of the categories.

He wasn't so messed up that he could go to the school for what they used to call retarded kids back then, right, but we don't call them that, but uh, And he couldn't go to regular school. So my mom, who had no background an education, started school, um called the Gateway School, and my brother was the first student. And now he's got his PhD and psychometrics and so the school is still the best school of its kind. What is psychometrics, it's the psychology of statistics. So basically

he's fine, He's fine. Yeah, he's fine. I mean, he had very difficult childhood because it was different than other kids, and it was something that's really still bothers me to this day, the fact that he was picked on and was bullied, um and um. And there was nothing I could do about it. But there are a lot of people who grew up in that situation and it affects the family because it affects them because all the attention is paid to the child with difficulty. Did you feel

that growing up? No, not at all. I didn't feel that way. Um. You know, there was you know, my family was odd. I mean, my dad was at the office almost all the time, you know, because he was building his you know, his legacy and um. And I thought that was normal. And my mom was a lovely woman, but she didn't know how to show love. She had no idea like there was And I didn't even realize

is it until she was gone. And my sister, who not around anymore, but my sister and my half sister, told me that my mom had never you know, hugged us or played with us, or read us a story or even touched us, or never said I love you like she couldn't do it. Even if I would say it to her, she couldn't say it back. Well, we didn't say that. My mother didn't say it. You know, on some level, it's children of that era. Although my mother, I think probably shouldn't have had children, would have been

a career woman in a different era. And as the result, it messes you up as an adult because you don't know how to say those things. But I didn't know what I was missing. You knew what you were missing. No, I didn't know it either. I no idea. I thought it was just normal. I did it didn't occur to me until until well until my sister told me, which was probably ten years ago. And then I've learned in

various forms of therapy what that meant. And so just to get the story straight, so I understand your half sister is your mother was married before she was married to your father. My mother was married to one of the guys who cracked the Japanese code in World War two, um, and then they were divorced, which was not a common thing,

very uncommon. And then she became a decorator, and my dad, who was penniless, was in had gotten a job as an associate and a law firm that had no clients, UM called Scadding Arps Slate mart eventually became Scadin Art Slate Martin flamm I was known as Scadding Um and so they had four partners in one associated and no clients. Actually his first client was a guy named Coutzy beg Desh, but that's a different story. But he was in a

horrendous car accident. He was in He was a passenger in a tax He had a stop later and an off duty cop plowed into it. It was drunk or fell asleep plot into the taxi. The driver was killed. My dad ended up in the hospital for quite some time, and when he got his insurance check, he decided to decorate his apartment and he hired my mother. And that's why I'm here. Wow. Okay, So you grow up in that family even though your father is not around that.

But because he's working, is there a lot of pressure to do well in school. So my dad said to me, do whatever you want to do, try to be the best data, but just make the world a better place. He says, that's the meaning of success. And I wanted to be a success in his eyes. And so that stuck with me to this day. And I say it when I give my speeches, I I quote him on that because I think it's a really powerful quote. I've

told my kids out of course. He told my brother as well, and I've tried to live up to that. Um So the pressure really was um No, there wasn't that much pressure in terms of that. I mean, I was the best student in school until eighth grade. You know. Bear in mind my dad was a legitimate genius and my mom graduated Cornell when she was eighteen. So she said, that's a crazy story. She graduated Cornell. She got buried in divorce. It's like she was thirty years ahead of herself. Yeah,

she was. She was an interesting moment with my mom. So obviously very very you know, very smart and so um the jeans were great. But so what happened in eighth grade? In eighth grade, a friend of mine said to me, um, hey, um uh, you know, I want to come by the house, tod, I said, craty goes want me to bring some reefer. I was like, I had no idea what that was, but I didn't want to admit that I didn't know what it was. I

was like, okay, So he brought it over. He brought some reefer which we used to call it, and we smoked whatever, some joints or something. And I remember we were listening to The Who and the record was warped, right, you know. It's like, I still it's weird that I remember that all these years later. But so I found you know, it was around this time. It took a little while longer than that, but it was around nine

or tenth grade that I found out I wasn't. I was almost good enough to make the sports teams, right. I was like the last I went to Fieldston. So I was like, you know, I have very quick hands and slow feet, but slow feet are no good in team sports, right, You can't. You can't make the soccer team. You can't make the football team. You can't make the basketball team because if you're slow, usually can't jump. So

I was like, well this sucks. I'm a monster ping punk player, you know, like I can I could people up at sports where you don't need to run. You know, I'm very good snowboarder, as you know, but anyway, so um, but you can't run. So I couldn't make the sports teams. So I decided I would play guitar and smoke weed. And so then my grades took up, and then I found gambling, and then things okay, well let's break this down a little bit. You find these things, your grades

to go downhill. You're going to fields, and does anybody raise their hand and say, hey, we've seen a dramatic change, and Jay sin or do your parents freak out? I think it was eighth or ninth grade. I was in the they divided the math class. I think they still do this. So they divided the kids up in the math classes from the smartest to the least smart. I'm

gonna be publicly correct, right. So there were six math classes because it's about twenty kids in the grade, and I was in the top class, and I was the only one. The first day of class. The teacher's name was Mr Spooner, and Mr Spooner gave us a test. He didn't even say hello. He was not a very nice man. Um. You know, he was one of these guys. I don't care if the door was locked, You're still late, you know. I mean that he was that guy. So

he gave us a test the first day school. I was the only one that got forty out of forty right, except for Tracy Bernstein on the makeup test, and I'm still pissed at her about that. But anyway, so if I was the only one, and there were kids in that class to end up getting full scholarships to Harvard Medical School, one kid, Paul Quintas, actually went to work for NASA and he didn't get forty right. So I was I was the smartest kid in the smartest class

in a very good school. And by the end of the school year, I was getting five out of forty right or seven? I mean, I was the worst kid in the class, and nobody fucking noticed it. And I smelled like weed all the time, I mean noticed it. I thought, that's why you send your kids to private school. Back then it was a little different though you could no one could get it. And it's funny, you know.

James Deaner went to the school that that I went to, about about ten years younger than me, and he said they were still talking my my, miss my misdeeds because I was such a druggy. I was a mess. So how did you get into playing the guitar? My mom bought me a guitar. I guess I asked her too. When I was about that age, like thirteen, I remember going to Why to take lessons. Then I had to play first like Feeling Groovy and the ultimately conky tunk women.

And then the next thing was I think from my fifteenth birthday she bought me an s g standard and then I started a band and I played in the band. I wrote songs and you know, and it it went very well with the weed and the whole lifestyle. Okay, was this a dream like you were gonna make it and we're just hanging out? Oh no, no, I was gonna make it. I was to make it. I had this side, my eyes on the prize, and you know, and that and that leads into the story. You know

what happened after the end of high school. Right, let's talk on the for a second. You're playing in the band. How much are you working? How much you rehearsing? We rehearsing a lot and gigging very little, you know, it's usually the paradigm. Yeah, And were you more into it than everybody else? Yeah? Probably, I mean they we we rehearsed a lot. The other guitar player was a guy named Jeff Burston. He was the adopted son of Ellen Burston. And we used to rehearse at her home in Rockland County,

which was a trip. How did you get there? There's gonna take a somebody at a car and I mean that's so, you know, we it was, but they had a whole set up there. We rehearsed there. We were even rehearsed like sometimes when my parents would go away. Um, we had we had a we had a housekeeper. Her name was Carmen. We used to call her the Black Tornado. She was ultimately I think she was ultimately shot by her lover or her husband who found her with her

lover or something like that. But anyway, she would but my parents would go away. She'd move all the furniture. We'd move all the furniture out. We would, that's right, we'd move all the furnture out of the living room, and the whole band would come. Our partment was on seven nights to Madison, and we would have the band and all our friends staying over for the whole weekend. And it was just like a crazy fucking scene and

we would rehearse people. Then we were on the sixth floor and people in the street would be looking up, you know, because we were playing so loud. But I don't know what the hell how we got away with this. But and then when we would leave the housekeeper, we'd go out to dinner on Sunday or lunch, whatever it was, and they would come back and everything was back the way it was. By herself, she would move all this stuff.

It was madness, incredible. Yea graduate from high school, you know, you went to college, didn't go to n y U. So I graduated from high school and I don't want to go to college. Now you can imagine that was not a popular choice in my Just to be clear, you were going to go to college, you to do what you're gonna become a rock star. Become a rock star. And so my dad came to my room one day and he says, I got a deal for you know. First of all, I wasn't even sure he knew where

my room was, right, but he did. He's probably clear. I mean, I'm just interested. Okay, he's working twelve hours a day during the weeks. He working the weekends too. He's working more than twelve hours a day. Um, I mean, it's gadden. Even now, people work way more than especially when you're on your way up, they work a hundred hours a week. But a um, you know, but he was working a lot, and he would come home for dinner under threat of extreme violence from my mother and

then go back to the office. But um, but we had great times together. And I don't I don't fault to it all for that. Maybe it's I don't know why, but it's just it's fine. So, um, he has a deal for you. It comes to my room, he says, I got a deal for you. I go. What he says, Um, you have a year to become a rock star. Otherwise you got to go to school. I'm like, great, Dad, you gotta deal me, thinking that, you know, because what

I lacked in talent I made up for in hutzpah. Right, So I was like, I don't even need a whole fucking anymore. Right I had my My song was being played on the They had a show called Prisoners of Rock on w n W, which is a big rock station, work and I got played a couple of times on there. I figured I'm almost the home. I'm almost there, right, So um So, anyway, um this is what year seventy nine. So he goes back to tell my mom about this deal he made, and my mom, who had never cursed

in her life until this point, apparently said bullshit. If he lives in by the house, he's got to work or go to school. So now my dad, arguably the greatest negotiator of the twentieth century, had to come back to my room and undo the deally he had just made with his fucked up son, which me so. So he went and made a few phone calls. He called Arthur Lyman and said, Arthur, what should I do? Arthur

was a famous litigator. He was a guy who actually litigated the case in the Attica Uprising and everything else, great civil rights icon as well. And Arthur said, let me call some He called Steve Ross, apparently right because he was Steve's lawyer, and then he, uh somehow or other, I ended up having a meeting for those people don't know.

He ran Warner Communications. Steve Ross at the time, right, he was a legendary figure and he uh so, So Steve arranged for me to go have an interview with a guy named David Horowitz who was the head of the Warner Music Division in those days. Right, this is all unbeknownst to you, or he's telling you what he do. I knew nothing. So one day I was told to go report to David Horrowitz his office at seventy five

Rocket Feller Plaza. I didn't know who he was, and and I smoked two joints and I walked in, slumped down in the chair, and he goes, you're going to work at Atlantic Records. And I was like, huh, all right, now, it's interesting because they sent me to Atlantic Wreckers. It

was July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine. They handed me some double sided tape, a staple gun, a bunch of posters, Zeppelin posters and other posters, and they sent me out to go to the record stores and put up posters in these we were I was I think my title was assistant trainee field merchant. Now what's odd is that until this time, it had never even occurred to me that that well, that they could be. The record companies were a thing like. I didn't know where I thought

records came from. And Atlantic was my favorite label because going back in time, here's a crazy story for you. When I was fifteen, my dad came home one day with a box of records. I was an avid record collector, but I probably had a hundred and five records at this point, and he came up with a box of

records from Atlantic. And I found out later that the story was that am It had called Im at urn Agin right, the legendary founder of Atlantic Records, at least for a time, I'm the greatest record man in his time, of all time, and m It had called my dad unbeknownst to me, and said, Joe, I have a problem and my lawyers can't figure out what to do. I hear you're the best can you help me? And my dad said, I don't take individual cases. I worked from corporations,

but what's your problem? And apparently I'm had told him what the problem was. That my dad told him what to tell his lawyers to go do, and he did and it worked. So he called my dad and said, Joe, I gotta do something for you. Says at to send my kids some records. He would have known. They came in boxes right right, and that box Bob had goats Head Soup, James Gang Bang, ROBERTA Flak killing Me, softly, bad company. I think it was straight shooter. I mean

it was fucking incredible. Quality control in those days was ridiculous. It was a few that I didn't want. I think it was gonna read the Franklin Record and the ire was like, get the funk out of here, this Atlantic record, So that A became debt like etched into my brain because I spent so much time watching them goats Head Soup how many times? And I lost to that record,

So that was the only different I used to. I had a You remember the sterias that came into They were like a little suitcase right how the record player and the speakers folded it on top, so I had a orange for Mica table and I would stick my face and straight down on the table and put one speaker on each side of my head and play Heartbreaker over and over again just to hear the intro, right, because it was the most New York City Yeah right, But what was really it was really about the musical

intro that had a great stone. Sorry, can't you hear the music? And Winter? I don't know. So in any event, you get this gig, you're not going to school or my head of the story. No, So I'm one. I have a year to become a rock star, right, But now I get this gig at Atlantic, and I forgot all about being a rock star. But at the same time, the Verset van Halen record came out, and I'll never forget because we had taken some sort of llucinogenic. We were at my my friend's house and and um, and

I was not a big guy. I didn't do a lot of stuff, so it was really you know, And I happened to walk into his room fully out of my mind, and he had just dropped the needle on the first Van Halen record, heard eruption, and I said, fuck it, this is ridiculous. There's no point I might. I might as well try to dunk a basketball. It's not one my three inch vertical jewish leap. It's not going to happen. So I said, okay, so it's around. All this was sort of happening concurrently, but nonetheless I

was still trying. In the beginning, I had to. They gave me a tiny little office because they just had an extra one, and I had a little couch and I had Around this time, I discovered a CDC. Discovered them. I discovered that they existed, right. I found Dirty Deeds Do Under Cheap in the hallways, someone's throwing it out, and I took it home because it looked cool, and

I started listening to it. And then I found out that a C d C had like four albums, and I was like, holy sh it, this is the greatest thing. It was almost as if someone had said it's almost as if I, like Errol Smith, had been in a time capsule, and all of a sudden, I had like everything from Dream onto Rocks right, And I was like, oh my god. It was a revelation. So I spent all my time and I had an s g standard,

just like Congus. And one day I had it in the office with me, right because sometimes I have my guitar in the office, and I don't think I've ever sewn this story in public. But so the head of publicity, who knew how much I of d c DC comes to me one day and she says her name was Simo Do and Semo says, Jason a C d C is gonna be in the building for them. They had just started happening at Highway to Hell was their first hit, and it had just gone gold apparently, and she says,

they're gonna be here. They're getting the gold album. So I was like, holy ship, where they gonna be. She goes, I think they're going to the thirtieth floor. Now, we were on the second floor um Atlantic Records headquarters. So I said, fucking I'm going up to the thirties floor, which was corporate, right. So I up to the thirty five hair like I had tons of hair back then, right, like tons, And of course they're not letting me in. So then I decided I'd wait on the second floor

to see if they showed up. And I'm standing there in the reception area and they come toodling out of the elevator, you know, all of them about five too, right, and I am having an out of body experience, right, I haven't met rock stars before. So they come walking on there. Forgot Phil Rudd, the drummer, had taken They apparently give him a cake and it was in a box. It was in a long, flat box. I don't know why he took it. Maybe it's said a C D

C on who the hell knows. So he comes in and he walks and he puts it on their SETFACEA he goes our our a pizza delivery, Go, we're gonna pay for these? I got I'm doing this sounds like a Southern ax. I'm trying to do Australian. But anyway, so I was like, oh my god, it's the coolest things ever happened. And so I see Bond walking and Bond fucking Scott right, So I follow him and I found with the homewa like, go, Bond, I got to

talk to you man, like it's so cool. Like I just always wondered, you know, what the what you would sound like because the way you sing and the way you talk, like how do you talk? And he goes, yeah, well thanks, I'm saying a lot this. You know, He's holding his nose and he goes, yeah, come to think about my He says, I got cocaine. Nos, no cocaine. You got any I was like, I was like, no, but I got some weed in my office. You know, you want to come to my office. He was like, yeah, mate,

you know whatever. So it comes to my office. I've got my guitar, I've got my fucking demo tape in the office, which I hand to him, of course, and I still used to I was still like, it's still a little distant dream there. That was my original thought. When I got to work at Atlantic. I was like, holy shit, if I get a job doing you or I could sign myself. I actually had that thought. So, you know, Bond leaves and they go into the conference room,

and I figured I've had my moment. And an hour later, I'm walking down the hallway and I see Angus Bond and Malcolm knock on this door of this guy named Raphael Santana, who was our dancing music guy. Did none of it made any sense to me, but I started was just staying out of the way at this point, and I walked by it here and going there's Jason, and there's Jason in there, and I'm like, are you

looking for me? And then Marco that this is a gool right here I tell you about gets on his office double tape and I was like, then, then, fucking next thing I know, Angus and Malcolm come tootling down to my fucking tiny little office when Angus plops himself down the couch, picks up the guitar and starts playing.

Now I've got a fucking poster of Angus on the wall, the power Rage poster, and he's sitting in front of it playing a fucking s G standard, and you can imagine my brain is exploding, right, and I'll never forget. I said to him. I go, ang It's like, oh, you know, I was asked a couple of questions and I was like, you know, you're so fucking cool, You're so great at guitar, and you're so young, Like when did you take it up plane? When you take up

plane seriously? And he goes, I never took it up seriously. And I'm like, ship right, right, right right, And that's in keeping because there's that great quote from Angus. Where's but he said what he said, Um, I'm sick and tired of hearing people telling us that we made eleven records and they all sound the same. We've actually made twelve. So anyway, so I said, I figured I might as well push my luck, because that's me, as you know. And so I asked him if he'd give me a

guitar lesson, and he dad. He told me to play Kicked in the Teeth. He told me to play you know that riff and kicks and alright, he did that riff raff and it was it was crazy, and then that became you know, then I was Now I was completely obsessed, and I ended up getting my first gold record UM for for Highway to Hell, because I designed. I wandered into the head of advertising office one day. It was who was like a deity to me. It was a vice president for advertising. Name was George Salavich.

I go, George, I got an idea, goes, what kid, what do you want to go? We should do an ad for Highway to Hell. The Highway to Hell is paved with gold, and we could have like a gold highway in Hell at the end and congratulate a CDC because Erroosmith had done these ads. You remember that famous Toys Built a Last ad. Actually I don't, Oh my god, it was the coolest thing when I was a kid. It so Errol Smith had done an ad. They took an elephant and he's two and his two fronts are

they called feet elephants? Yeah, they're not paused, his two front feet whatever they pads. What we're on. We're balanced on Tonka trucks. And it just said toys built to last, Arrowsmith Double Platinum toys in the attic, and I was like, that's the And they did a number of these. They were incredible. They that rocks. One was amazing. It was a glassful of diamonds and vodka being poured on it. There was one fordraw the line where it was a woman was gorgeous. Of course, woman in like a leo.

It's hard with the tights and she was standing on a tight rope that she was painting and and bending over and holding an arrow Smith umbrella and it just said Arrowsmith draws the line or whatever like no, I said no, I said platinum in the line of duty a right. So anyway, so so I said, George, we gotta do this add so he says, no, we don't have money for these type of things, you know. So I said ship. But then when it went platinum, he calls me in his office and I look and he

has the mock up from the art department. The highway hell is paved with platinum. I have the original mock up in my house, signed by all the A C. D C guys, and I end up getting a gold record for that. So the point being at the end of my year, because I was on the year trainee program and at the end of the year, I had to go to school, but they asked me to stay and so I ended up going to n y U. Uh, you know, technically full time although I was rarely seen

on campus and working full time in Atlantic Um. You know, I was making four dollars an hour, but I didn't care. I thought it was a great at job in the world. Okay, couple of things. Was your father this aggressive? Uh? In terms of what, well, you see an opportunity and you seize it. You gave Bob Scott your demo tape. I would be too uptight to do that, I said, Oh, people must have been given a demo tape. All the time, I gotta be cool. You know, I don't have to

push it. Where did you learn to push it? I don't know. I mean, look, my dad's the guy who wrote a letter to Harvard Law School, right. I mean, so, you know there's that great saying. I think it's Wayne Gretzky that said you missed a hundred percent of the shots you don't take, right, And I've always felt that way.

I mean, I don't, uh, I've I've developed this thing over the years, you know, the times when I haven't done that, and then you sit around kicking yourself for somewhere between days and weeks, right, And then I decided, any time I do that, I'm give myself a non moving violation, right. I kind of invented this phrase, I think. So I don't want those. I don't want nine moving violations.

I'd rather deal with rejection than regret. So, you know, so to me, whether or not it's meeting a girl out and about or you know, just and you know obviously you can't be too aggressive there, but you know, you you know you could still go up and ask someone to talk to you. Okay, So when someone rejects you or things don't work out. How do you metabolize that? Just keep it moving like just okay. So if you failed, come right back up to bad. Yeah, what are you

gonna do if you fail? You fail? I mean you can't take it personally. And and the and this thing that people do, this thing is much shorter, though it doesn't last as long as if you know, you ever see those ads or whatever that only the girl. There was a girl on the subway on Tuesday. And I mean, like you see that. There used to be a thing like in the Village Voice. That's ridiculous, by the way. You know how I first became aware of you, not to flip the script or anything, but the first time

I heard about you the left sets letter. So this is in probably or so, and the left sets letter was like mimiograph or whatever you used to do xerox, I don't know what the funk he used to do and stapled and sent out and I would see it on people's desk and I didn't know. I think I saw it on Twin Jerram's desk, and he was on the Twin Jerram was a legendary um um in a lot of ways, but he had been the various times that had a promotion ahead of A and R had

a publicity Atlantic Records. Um, just that we could do a whole podcast about him and his stories. It's sucking incredible. And uh, I saw it on his desk and I picked it up and I started reading it. And you had done a whole thing about Tory Amos's lips, right. So, and this is when I had signed Tory Amos and um, the first record had stiffed right was why can't Tory right?

And the second one was of course little Earthquakes and it was just starting to happen, and she had made that phenomenal video that that groundbreaking video for Silent all these years, and Bob had written and talking about you in the third person. Bob had uh pretty much a diet tribe about the way her lips moved and the thing. And I was like, this guy's nuts. But I like, and I think I might have reached out to you back then. So that's the first time I became aware.

But let's go back. So now you're going to n y U full time and you're working full time. How does that play out? So technically I was still a part time employee, but I was working like thirty five hours a week at four dalls. Now I think I might have gotten raised a four fifty by now. And there was a whole controversy about that. I mean it was like I had to get to tell the story how you're putting up posters and they think you're a spy. Oh well no, that was when I first came in there,

so they have signed me. There was a guy named Philip van Pool who was the field merchandiser and I was assigned as a trainee to him. Now, all he knew and he was a kid from the streets whatever and and from Baltimore I think, And all he knew was that corporate had said you're to take this kid around and whatever you're doing stopped doing it right, Like, whatever it is, don't do it around this kid. I don't know why that. No, no, that corporate had sent

me to him. His immediate bosses were the two heads of sales, sal You Toronto and Nick Maria, who were Carrot of the eighth order. Right, the names are perfect, like if you had to cast these guys as themselves, you'd name them that. So anyway, so um so, yeah, they had told him clean up your fucking act whatever you're doing. So he took me the first day to fourteen record stars. I remember it was July thirty one,

nineteen seventy nine. We are trapesing all over Manhattan, carrying these rolls of posters and staple ones and double side of tape and all this ship and climbing around on ladders, and I remember at one point, I know, I said, hey, do you want to stop? And Smoking's like, no, man, I can't do that. You know, We're we got too much work. And I was like, can we stopping at lunch? He was like, we got ten minutes, man, let's get some pizza. I was like, pizza, it's a hundred degrees like.

But that was my first day and I went home and I was like, wow, this is unbelievable, Like I don't know how I'm gonna make this work. And then the next day I came in with a case of like that, you know, a few joints whatever, and I was like, come on, let's go smoke. And I don't think we ever did more than three displays in the day after that. It was it was ridiculous. We became friends. Okay, so now you're going to school and you're working in Atlantic,

what's the next move? So then I decided, you know, I found out that of these guys, at various times, I was delivering the mail or doing other things, and I started to see these A and R guys right to deliver the mail to the office, and none of

them looked particularly adept to me. Um, and they weren't actually you know, Atlantic, I think Ahmed had signed all the hits or whatever it was, or Phil Carson or somebody, and uh, you know, so I was like, fuck, you know, it seems to me that I'm if I could be half good at this, I'd be three quarters better than the rest of these guys. You know, that was actually my calculus. So I decided I need to get a

job doing an R. Well, that was tricky. So what happened was sort of a miracle of the zebras did everythode of the Zebra story. So Zebra was So here's how I found my way into the A and R department. And I think, for for people who may be listening that want to make it in the music business, we're starting to make the music because this story is probably gonna be helpful. So I decided that I would study because rock was my ship, right, And there was a

magazine back then, which you'll remember called Album Network. Of course, an album Network was the bible of rock radio. And on the cover they would print that here's the four biggest gainers, here's the four top new releases years to four, whatever the funk it was. There were sixteen albums on the cover, and then inside there would be comments from all different programmers and different things that were going on

and whatever the well was. And in the back of the magazine they printed the playlist of all hundred and ninety rock stations in the country at the time. That's how many of there were. And they were very small, but my eyes were and it was really small, and plus I was smoking, we know, would just sit there and stare at these things. And I said, you know what if one if I can find and they would have the name of the radio station, the phone number,

the name of the program director of music. Right, I said, if I can find one of these stations is playing an act it's not already signed, maybe that could be a break for me. You know. So that's interesting. You came up with that by yourself, Yeah, because that was Doug Morris this big thing to do research, etcetera. Ultimately, yeah, but he didn't even know me at that time. Like,

you know, it's just funny. There's a parallel there. Okay, so you're looking for an unsigned act in the back of album network, right, And then I would call the radio station and pretend that I was somebody who's called they should take even though I was from Atlantic Racers. I wasn't going to tell him mom the fucking I didn't even have an office anymore. I had like a desk in whatever. And you know, half the time they

wouldn't take my call. On another half of the time they would say, oh that Sacks already signed r C A. Would you know who are? You would waste my time? And I would be that So, as fate would have it, W B A B In Long Island was playing an act called The Lines. So I called up and I got the program director, Bob Buckman, who's still in the business, on the phone, and I said, Bob, what's with the Lines? He says, that's nothing. I put it on as a favorite to somebody. It's really nothing you need to be

concerned with. So you hadn't even heard it. No, there was no way to hear it back then. So I said, well, and again, in an act of exactly what you were talking about a few minutes ago, I said to him, well, if you were me, who would you sign? Now, this was a ridiculous thing to say. I sign my fucking name half the time, right because I was too blitzed. So he says, he says, let me tell you about Zebra. I go, what Zebra? He goes, it's the most requested

band at the radio station. I said, oh, you mean the most requested local band. He goes, genius. Hold on a second. I thought that was funny because my dad used to call me janius ironically since he actually was one. But anyway, so um, So he goes and gets the log because I used to actually track the request because kids would all the radio stations back there didn't have a lot of other ways of hearing their favorite song, especially if it wasn't out, but they would call on

request everything. And so he comes back and he says, in the last quarter of the year, six percent of all the requests we came in were for zero. Number two was number two, Three and four I remember were some combination of AZZI, A C, D c and led Zeppelin, I don't know in which order. And I said, holy sh it, how do I get ahold of this? And he goes, hold on, I'll call the guys on the other phone. So there's no conference calling back then either,

So he calls them. They lived in New Orleans and the singer's name was Randy Jackson, not the Randy Jackson that you know from TV or Journey or whatever. So he calls Randy. Now, these guys have been playing clubs for nine years, and they had given up on getting a record deal. But now they would play in New York in the summer because it was too hot in New Orleans, and then they would go back to New Orleans in the winter and they and they were one of the big band in both markets. They sounded a

lot like led Zeppelin. And so the next day I get to my desk and there's a FedEx package on my desk. Now FedEx was relatively do but so I was very excited. It was glowing and I think it had an album in it. But I nowhere to play an album. So I went to one of the A R guys office as a guy name was a Zis cox Sell. He was on. It's nephew, and he's one of the guys whose job I wanted. So anyway, I said to him, you were about to hear the next big thing, and he says, really, did you listen to it?

How's this? I said, no, no no, I'm just telling you right, And so he puts the record on. I can't even hear because I'm too excited, And at the end of it, he says, this is no good. It's no It's gave me five reasons why it was no good. So I go back to my desk and I'm calling Randy to tell him it's no good. And I'm halfway through dialing and I said to the assistant secretary whatever. He was sitting in front of me, Mary was her name. Eric Conroy said, Mary, how does this make any sense? I'm

calling this guy to tell him his ship is no good. Meanwhile, he's the number one guy on the radio stage, number one band a race, and it's selling out all these what he goes doesn't make his sense to me either, So I call him. Obviously, Randy, listen, this guy said no good for all these different reasons. But I'm gonna give it to Doug Morris and see what he says. So Doug was the President Atlantic at the time. So

I made a cassette of it. I wrapped it up in a piece of paper and put a rubber band, and I went to Doug's assistance, you know, desk, and I put it on top of this other wall, all of cassettes that he was never gonna listen to that other people were hoping he would listen to. And as again, destiny, fate, serendipity,

whatever you want to call it, kis met synchronicity. He happens to pull a few of these things off her desk to take on his drive home to Long Island, where he lived, and he's listening to Zebra in the car. Who's behind the Door was a song. He decides he doesn't like it, and he pops it out of the take deck and it's playing on the fucking radio. Because he lived in Long Island and everybody lived a long and listen to W B A B. So the thing

He's like, what the so? So the DJ at the end of the song says, that's the most requested song in the history of W B a B. Zebra Who's behind the Door? Now the perfect guy to hear that was Doug Morris. Because Doug is the guy who taught every one of the music business how to do research. So he built a huge one of the most important careers in the history music on research, largely, I mean so and other things. So he comes in the next day. They were allowing me by now to sit in the

A and R meetings. And because I would do research, somebody would say, I like this spanned from Iowa called Mackinaw and I'd say, they said, Jason called some of the stores, there are the clubs, and find anybody likes this group. So we're sitting in this meeting and somebody's talking about something and Doug goes, wait a minute, what's zebra? And I'm sitting there, you know, having like I don't. I'm I'm stunned. And he goes, this is genius and I was like huh. And he goes, fly these kids

up here on a meeting. So that's how it all started, and it was a crazy process from there too. But the great thing was that the man had built up so much that when the record came out, it was like it was literally midnight. Man. His kids all cut school, they came records came out on Mondays in those days, and the kids all cut school and we went to the store and they were pulling them out of the boxes before the guy could even stamp the price on them.

And they were buying two or three copies at once, and it became a big out of the box smash in these two markets. And and and all of a sudden, they were like, Hey, this kid must know what he's doing. Let's give them a job doing and R and I was like, thank you. And that's how it started. Okay, how long after you started Atlantic did that transition take place. It's only a couple of years. I was in college. Okay, so how long did you go to college? For? Two years?

In change? And how did college end? My dad said to me, you're better I had two records on the charts, and he said, you're better off doing one thing right than two things wrong. And I was like, thanks dad, I'm out of here. And by the way, here's a

platinum twisted sister record. I actually gave him the platinum that was that was the first platinum than a C D C, which I you know, it was a totally different thing because it was for an ad I designed, but um, I gave him the first platinum Twisted Sister, which would stay Hungry, on the condition that he hanged in his office and hung in his office for his entire life. Really, and what was the other record that was successful? Zebra was the first one, but you said

there were two projects? Was one of them Zebra? How far did Zebra go? That went gold? And then my friend? Then the second record? Unfortunately Jack Douglas was the producer, and Jack was a mess, and he he was really losing it. John Lennon had been his best friend and John had been killed and he was going through a terrible period and he really it was. And by the way, making the Zebra record was an insane, insane experience too, because Jack was all ready in this you know state,

and now I had gone. You know what happened was you hired Jack because he did all the legendary Aerosmith records. So yeah, what happened was Doug had gotten cold feet at a certain point and I would come home at night and say, Dad, I don't understand what do I do? How do I go back to this? And to give me advice how to approach him every day and say something different but finally I decided, I gotta get this off the dime. So I went and I gotta called

Jack Douglas. He just won the Grammy for Double Fantasie. I figured, if I can get the biggest producer in the world to agree to do this, then maybe I can get this group to finally get signed. And I got him. I convinced his manager to get him to come to a show with me. I remember, I rented like a tiny little car. Was the only thing I could get, like a hand done. I drove him to

Long Island and he agreed to produce the record. I wanted him because you're right, because he had done the greatest Aero sprint albums and the band loved the John Lennon album, so it was perfect. Well, we didn't realize is that Jack was now like three sheets to the wind. He was he was just so devastated and twisted up by by the horrible, untimely death of his best friend

and hero, John Lennon. And you know, he would book a session for Tuesday and show up on Thursday and not call anyone, and the band would sleep in the studio and meanwhile it was record planned and we were just getting built and building build, and the prices are going up and up and up, and I'll never forget. One day, Doug comes to my office. Now, the budget for the albums a hundred and thirty thousand, which back then was a lot, right because Jack was getting fifty

five thousand, so it sounds like nothing. These people get fifty track right right back then it was a lot. So Doug comes to my office one day, slams the door shut and starts banging his fists on the table. And Doug's an intimidating guy. You know they've given me an office by now, um I remember my first whatever, tiny office. And he's like, what the fund is going on with this thing? The records over budget already, there's

not even any tracks. What he's screaming, and he know his neck with the bald ducks, muscles are budging out of his neck and stuff. And I'm sitting He goes, you call this Jack Douglas, motherfucker, and you tell him get his ship together right fucking now. And he leaves my office and I'm sitting there, going, Okay, let's process this. I just got out of high school. I'm gonna call it Jack Douglas and go listen, Jack, you know what you're dealing with your like, he says, And I remember

that the unbelievable story. So finally the records that were almost two hundred and thirty thousand dollars spent and they're mixing, and I was at the record plan on the tenth floor and we're in the studio and Jack was hearing noises that didn't exist right. So he had three track boards strunk strunk together. There were there were shrimp talking and and and whales barking and things in the tracks that you know, no one could hear except him. But

we had all these things funking. And in those days there was no automation. So everyone's got their hands on the boards and I don't know what I'm doing, but everyone's doing something. And the manager of the record Plank I me. Mitch comes in the studio and says Jack. It was ten to four on a Tuesday, and he goes, Jack, you're done. I've had it with your bullshit. You're out of here. The fucking Record Atlantic pulled the plug, the

records canceled, get the funk out of my studio. Because he'd had it right and so, and I'm sitting here watching this hero of mine being screamed at by the genleman of the record plan. And I'm also watching my career go up and smoke right because Atlantics pulling the plug on the only record I'm ever going to sign. And so Jack goes, give me ten more minutes to

finish the album. I need ten fucking minutes. And I'm like, you imagine, like in a fig POC match, right, My head's going back, and what am I supposed to do? So the guy says, You've got ten minutes to finish this album. Obviously ridiculous, And so they barricaded the door, like Jack literally barricaded the door. There were two doors to the studio, but there was a step that you would walk in and you'd go up a step, and people who were in the studio back then, I'll remember,

and this is a legendary studio too. This is where Stephen wrote the lyrics to some of the aerospace songs on the walls. So we barricaded the studio with an eight track machine or wherever it was a multi track machine that door, and then there were was a ROADI or two roadies holding the other door. Shut, and that's how we finished the record. I mean it went on like that all day, with banging on the door, and

but the record came out and nothing really happened. No, it exploded because all the kids have been waiting for the record to be released, so it exploded out of the gate. It was number one selling record and in like record town and all these different stores, and then everyone's running around the hallways thinking I know what the funk I'm doing. It was awesome. Hi, everyone ob left sex here. I just wanted to take a moment and

thank you for listening to my podcast. I'm humbled by the initial response of the podcast, and I've been able to line up some excellent guests in future episodes. I can't wait to share those and hear the podcast evolved. I think you're in for a treat, so be sure to subscribe, leave reviews. Tell your Friend's gonna be a big year. Now more with Jason Flong. So tell the Twisted Sister Story. So Twisted Sisters story, which has been, uh, you know, a subject of some um you know debate

in your and your letter. Phil Carson has a different view. I've heard of your viewpoint, but I thought you. You know, it's just tell the story through your eyes. The only thing we're arguing about his semantics. What happened is not in dispute right. What happened was Randy from Zebra says to be one day Flom Twisted Sister is the greatest live band in the world. He goes, we can't touch him, and neither can anyone else. And I was like, I

gotta go see this now. I had bought one of their records when I was in high school, a disco bad I bought. I think it was shoot him down or I'll never go up now. And so I knew about the band, but it didn't occur to me as something that, you know, whatever. So Wednesday night nid Hudson Civic Center in Poughkeepsie, two hours north of New York City, Twist the Sister's headlining and opening a Zebra and d

C Star. I thought it was odds, but has a record deal with Sister, doesn't three thousand kids on a Wednesday night at six bucks Ahead, I go up there. That allowed me to stand on the stage. D comes out, the band come did plighted applause for d C Star and Zebra, and then they come out, and the places on fire, right, and and the kids are roaring, and d comes out and he goes, all right, New York fucking city or Pokeepsie ever he says. He goes, we

just got back from fucking England. We're sick and fucking tired. Here in those line me, motherfucker's telling us how bloody good we are. He goes, what do you New York motherfuckers have to say? And three thousand kids I swear about throw their fists in the air and go twisted, fucking sister. And I was like, I'm done right, right, I don't care who cares what they do after that

doesn't matter, because Doug had now taught me right. Doug had taught me that your opinion is secondary to the public opinion, right, which he taught half of the music business. And Monty of course became Monte Davery became the greatest. They took his advice and turned it into the number one label in the world. So they they performed. It was phenomenal because they had done thousands of shows by now they were great. And I got back to the city. Every rode back with JJ. I got back to the city.

I think I got two hours of sleep, and I walked into the Doug's office in the morning on two hours of sleep and three kinds of God knows what, and I said to him, I found religion last night. And he goes, what the are you talking about? You know how there's that dichotomy when somebody's wide away your half asleep. I go, Twisted Sister, He just get the funk out of my office and by the way go home. He looked like shit, and I was like, Huh, that

didn't go the way I planned, you know. So I kept coming back to him, uh, every day with another story. But I didn't realize that Twisted Sister was considered a joke by the entire music industry at this point, which would made no sense to me. The next night, I went to South Jersey to see him, which is to

give people who don't know the area an idea. Two hundred and something miles away and there were thirty seven hundred kids at the Fountain Casino and I was like, this comes with instructions, right, So I said, but I would go back to him every day, and every day he'd thrown me out of his office, and it finally, um it finally hit a low point um when and this and the record was selling like crazy. They did independent record on secret records, and at one point w

p LJ in New York City started playing it. And I remember going to Dave Glue, who was the general manager of I would go everybody for advice. I couldn't figure it out why everybody hated them so much. And then Christmas one particular year, we have a meeting of the in our department. Now, this was the worst year Atlantic had had in a long time, which had followed the best year right the previous year they had five

the top ten records. They had Genesis and Stevie Nicks and Foreigner and the Rolling Stones and Yes, and this year none of the big axe made records and we didn't break anything, and it was a disaster. So Doug gave us a raw Ross. Speci was greated to ship and he says, everybody together though in our department, we're going to sink or swim or a team or this without whatever. He says. But Jason, if I ever hear the name Twisted Sister again, you will never work another

day at this record company. And I was like, hmm, that was pretty straightforward. Um, So I didn't know what to do next. But shortly thereafter I saw a guy named Phil Carson in the hallway. Now he didn't know me, but I knew he was because he was a legend already. He was a generation ahead of me. He had signed from what I understood, a C D C. I think, maybe yes, Um, I mean like crazy shit, you know, like some off the way, And I knew he was ahead of the English company. So I went up to

Mr Carson, I handed him to Cassette. I handed him a whole sheets and sheets of information about the sales and the tickets and the things and the whatever and the sucking. And then, um, I don't know how long ago, maybe a month later, he calls me up one morning from England and he says, I saw a twisted sister last night. They're the best thing I've seen since a C D. And I'm gonna sign him. And I said, what are you gonna do about America? And he says, don't worry, I'll get some to put it out now.

I find out later that he apparently took the whole thing that I had painstakingly put together and given to him and through in the garbage because he didn't know who I was. But then it was a coincidence, another great coincidence, because my life is synchronicity and coincidence and serendipity. And they happened to be opening the show that he was at. May have been foreign or I don't know who, and he saw them as a result of that, and he saw the vision. And then two Doug's everlasting credit.

You know, the first record came out. It's called you Can't Stop Rock and Roll and it sold a hundred thousand copies in America. Now you can imagine it came out. Could you make a lower priority than the right? He had to put it out as a favor to fill, but I still wasn't allowed to mention it. But I was calling all the local reps and everybody else, and which I also wasn't allowed to do. I'll get in trouble at least once a week for that and uh.

And the record sold a hundred thousand on fumes. And then when day Doug calls me his off and he says, you were right, and we're going to make a big thing out of this band. And then Doug had the vision to hire Tom Wormon to get Marty calling there to direct those what became some of the most dilegendary

videos of all time. Yeah, the first ones I think that had um, you know, had talking, you know, I had like movies Janor Meyer and all that thing, and you know, what do you want to do with your life? So dog really masterminded. And that album sold six million copies, so you know, so anyway it's been you know, it was an amazing thing to be a part of. UM. And uh, unfortunately they crashed and burned on the next record. They didn't want to use Tom Worman again, which I

never understood. As little as I did understand back then, it didn't make sense to me that you wouldn't dance with who brought you to the dance. Um, But it went horribly wrong, and um, the next album didn't sell anything, and ultimately they broke up. So, okay, what were some of your successes and failures after that? Well, so then came a girl named Fiona. She just not called talk to me. There was a half a hit, so all of a sudden, I was basically three for three. But

then I started getting messed up. You know, Um, this was a time of great excess in the music industry and it caught up to me and I ended up going to rehab. Doug. Doug pretty much forced me to go to rehab, which again I mean, I owe my life as a result because I don't think i'd be here, and um, you know, I went not knowing what the

fact we have wasn't a big thing back. I remember telling my mom was going to rehab, and she was wondering if I was gonna come out like with wearing a smock and a banging and tambourine at the port authority, you know what I mean. Like she was like with sandals on a one piece of hair eaging off the back of my head, you know. So it was not part of the vernacular, you know, or the culture. But I went and I came out and I was a

little woozy. But all of a sudden, like White Line had made an album while I was in the studio and it came out doing nothing, and then one radio station broke that album, a station called k j j O in Minneapolis started playing it and exploded off that station that I signed skid Row an escape club around that time, and Tori Amos of course, which was you know, looking back, one of my proudest signings and also one that's had a lot of meaning in my life in

a lot of very odd and interesting ways. And then eventually they made me the head of the n ART Department and around Okay, did you have any failures? Of course, I don't remember all of them, a lot of them. I mean, everybody does. Nobody got nobody bouts four hundred. Um so it's like baseball if you about in the Hall of Fame and nobody remembers the misses as long as you have big hits. So um so they made me the head of the n R Department, and then

we went on this crazy role. Um. A guy named Tom Caroline who was in the Ark I brought me Stone Tumble Pilots and I jumped on a plane right away. Um. This is when Danny Goldberg could first come in, and we roped him in because he had the old cred. You know. Um, I'm not sure you know how he really felt about the music, but he went and sold it real good. And um so we signed Stone Tumble

of Pilots. And around that time was Hoodie and the Blowfish, and I remember going to see Jewel when she was had like five people in a coffee shop in San Diego and with a cappuccino machine. And I went back two months later and there were three hundred people there and silent, you know, just staring at her like she was a you know, a combination of a ghost and a god. I mean it was it was beautiful. Um. And so we had this this amazing string of successes. Um.

I'm leaving some out. But and and it's worth noting that I'd signed Sabotage actually before I went to rehab, because we know how that ended up. But they end up with tuxedos playing Christmas music and calling himself Trans Siberian Orchestra. But that's a different story. But okay, so he tell us how it evolves into Lava. So what happened was I believe that they Um, the perception was that music was changing. And this you'll remember this, this Caroline,

the sound was like all the rage all aside. Everybody wanted to sign Super Chunk and all these type of bands, right and uh, and so they hired a guy named Jay Farris, who was in from that scene. You had a company called Mammoth Records. I didn't I didn't know why would they would do that, but they did. And then they decided to move me aside and let him run the an our apartment. So they gave me the opportunity to restart at CO Records. And I didn't want to do that. It sounded I said to Doug, it

sounds old to me. You know, can I can I name the thing myself? You said sure. So I came up with the name lava because it's hot. Also I was thinking about, you know, great forces of nature, like the Atlantic, and of course lava is hot and it flows and it destroys everything that's path and it sounds like love. And you wanted a short name back then because c ds were coming in and you know, you couldn't see a long name. So so I started Lava.

And I think they said, okay, but they gave you a good deal or that, you know, they gave me a terrible deal. And they gave me They sent me up to fail. I mean they I didn't know it at the time, but they gave me three ability to hire three people, very small budget, no acts and um and I had no idea what the funk I was doing. I don't know how to start a business. So I think that's nineties five or six. And uh, I wouldn't asked for advice from anybody I could think of, um

who had had this experience. UM and uh. You know there's that great saying fake until you make it right. And so I hired a women and Valerie DeLong. She was like my right hand and we um we started off and we started off good. I mean one of the first acts I signed was that when McCain it was brought to me by Kim Stevens UM who was a promotion guy at at Atlantic who had an air for talent. He had brought me Collective Soul earlier. He had also brought in seven Mary three, which I didn't

sign because I couldn't stand them. But they had to hit anyway, um ironically on Mammoth and uh. And then Jill Sabiel had a half a hit, and Sieve had a half a hit, and Biff Naked had a half a hit, and then things got hot. Then Sugar Ray came along right and had fly and that exploded. And then then I then the same guy, Kim Stevens brought me Matchbox twenty which was called tap at the Secret back then, and I remember, because this is the lesson

in this too. He sent me four songs. I listened to my call and I was like, I'm not sure. He goes listen at three am again. I listened at three am again. It was the only one on that four song and became a hit. Said let's go see these guys. I went out. I think we went to Tallahassee or somewhere, and it was not what you see today, trust me. I mean they were not. I don't even think they were in tune. They had two different guitar players. Back then, nobody was paying attention to them. There wasn't

in a stage. But I was like, there's something special about this guy was Rob Thomas guy. So we signed them, and of course we know what happened next. And it's funny. I remember even on the first record, because I always have like the last minute. I'm always wondering if we picked the right first single. I remember sitting in my office with Rob going back and forth where it was Real World or Long Day for the first single. But then you know in this magic and all this these lessons.

Right after Long Day was a big hit at rock radio, sold whatever, maybe a hundred thousand records, and then a radio station down south who liked them a lot in Birmingham actually started playing Push. So I called the record stores and it was blowing the doors off, and the guy from the station told us that was the only thing that he was getting a request for any one cared about real world or any of the songs. So I went to the band manager, I said, this is

the next single. They're like, oh no, and I was like no, that Doug Morris thing was in my head right, So obviously that became their career song. And then he's had so many other amazing songs since then. And then a guy named Andy carp Young and our guy who work for me brought me kid Rock and uh and that was in some ways the most fun kid Rock had made records. And was you know, he'd been around the mill already. So kid rock Um had had three albums,

all stiffs. The first he had signed he was signed to Jive when he was seventeen. His first single was a song about eating pussy called Yodeling in the Valley, and do you remember that it's really funny yodeling in the valley, Yeah, Yeah, Yodling in the Valley, A Delicious Break from Potatoes and anyway, so um that had made a tiny ripple, and then he had two albums on a on a company I think it was called Continuum, and they went bankrupt. One was the poly Fuse Method

or whatever, so he was damaged goods. But Andy comes to see me. Kid Rocks manager had given him a CD. I think it's out by Southwest, he says, I think that's something here. I go, all right, so go see him. So he goes to Cleveland to go see him. He comes back. I said, how's the show? He goes, I

don't know. He goes, you know, there's only forty people there, but he comes out of a coffin to start the show and there's a little person on stage cursing and rapping, and I was like, I think I better go see this for myself. So I went to I went to Detroit and saw him at the State Theater and it was it was awesome. But then we had a meeting. He told me to meet him in the basement of some disco club whatever to thirty in the morning. So

I did, and it was quite a strange scene. And I said to him, what do you want to do. Are you a rap or you a rock? What do you? What's your thing? And he was like, don't worry, I'll make some songs and i'll show you what I'm doing. And I said, do you want me to pay form? He said no, which is a very kid rock thing to say. So he sent me two songs. Somebody's got to feel this, and I got one for you, and then I got one for you. He name checked me.

I don't even remember that, but there's a verse, Hey Flam, you want to hit money for you? So I didn't know that they were sentually demo. I was on Hollywood Boulevard when I put those two things on and I called him up and I said, I'll give you whatever you want and he said I want. I think it was three hundred thousand and whatever number of points and

I said deal. We shook hands over the phone, and then his manager at the time, I think, went and shopped my deal and he started getting calls to Who's ever Lasting Credit Rock started getting calls from other labels, and he was like, I don't need you now. I needed you then, and he didn't hold me up when they offered it more money. The same was true with Matchbox. By the way, Hollywood Records offered to triple our offer

and Bob said, no, I'm signing with with Lava. And that was a very good decision, and for kid Rock was an even better decision because that was the hardest project to break, and that's why it was the most fun. And also because he was such an outrageous character and you know, just such a such an unbelievably brilliant performer. You know. Okay, so how did you break kid Rock? So he went and made this album, Devil without a Cause. I thought it was one of the greatest albums of

all time. It is, and everyone else hated it. With the exception of Lee Drink, Angelica Cobb and Andy Carpy and our guy, everybody fucking hated it. His peers thought very little of him. Radio hate couldn't be less interested. Press thought he was a joke, this white rapper with a fade or whatever, and uh, you know, um, um MTV couldn't be less interested. And Atlantic, the company that I was, you know, partnered with, um they hated it.

Um they hated We did a showcase in New York, Bob, the first Kid Rocks showcase in New York was the greatest thing ever. We and we rent out at s I R. We sent out the invitation. It just was a sheet of paper and it was very the lettering, everything was perfect, but it just said hydraulic bonds, cursing midgets, pim pimp suits, coffins and then it just said kid Rock s I R. Seven PM. That's all that said. And that was the wrong order, but those were the

right things. And we rented a pony from a children's party place for two because Joe Cie, who was then, I could say because that's what they referred to him, but he was alive. That's side. I don't know what to do their political correctness time. So we rented this pony. He didn't want to get on it. He thought it was a horse, but it was a pony. And we paid two hundrellars for the pony, and then we had to pay two hundreds to s I R. To read the bribe. I got to let him in the usually

that farm animals in there. So Josie rode on stage on a pony and did the rap for Cowboy Um while waving a six shooter and wearing a cowboy hat. And we had Christmas lights drung around and we called it electric pimp suit whatever. And it was a full kid rock arena show like you would see today in S I R. And all of Atlantic was there and I was just as proud as I could be. And the next day they I find out they all thought

it sucked. I was like, sucked, are you guys? I just like watching guns and Roses in the studio, you out of your mind as the greatest thing ever. So ayay, we were really up against it. And how it broke was that as it was going nowhere, and Lee Drink had written even written a letter to Howard Stern and said, you know about this? He said, no, Lee wrote a letter. He was a product manager, he was a young guy

and who ultimately became kid Rocks manager. And he wrote a letter to Howard Stern because we thought if we can get him on Howard, and you know kid Rock was always with strippers and things. It was very Howard type of guy. So if we could get him on on Howard, we thought, you know, maybe that'll be a you know, a tipping point whatever. So so Drink wrote a letter to Howard and said, dear Howard, you don't know me. But I'm Kid Rocks product manager, and I

have the following offer for you. If you'll play this record on the radio just once and then tell me honestly that you don't like it, I'll set myself on fire. He says, I'll take all the necessary safety precautions and you can film it if you want. But that's my offer to you. And they didn't respond, so whatever. But you know, and and and Rock and Drake had been an Israeli paratrooper, so you know he was pretty serious. But anyway, but we were trying everything. It's my point.

So one day I took Louis Largent from MTV golfing and Louis was one of the senior programming guys there and we had a great day. How long after the record come out, it was months and months it was dead. So I took Louis golfing. This goes back to something my father told me. It was that one of the keys to success in businesses being friendly. So I took I took Louis golfing at Hudson National Golf Club, great golf course. We had a great day. He was a

good golfer. We're getting my tahoe to drive home La Tahoe with the stocks stereo, which was very good, and in my car I controlled the volume, right, So I turned this fucking thing up to eleven and I played five songs and he had already heard the record and rejected it. And after the fifth song he turns to me and he is, this guy's going to save the world, and I said, I know, but it's much more important for you to know, and he goes Flom, You're going to touch them all on this one. And then he

went back to MTV. I introduced him to rock. They ended up staying all night cleaning out a hotel any bar, but he went back and said we're going. He made a stand and he said we're gonna break this guy, and they did like a fashionably Loud was a big thing MTV Beach House. We got him on all these shows. They started playing I'm the bull Got in light rotation and um, you know the next thing, you know, along comes Bob with the Bob and the rest is history. Okay,

so none of those videos were made at that point. No, I'm the bull Got had been made because I was putting real money into it, because I believe him. We spent a hundred thousand, I think on it. It was a real video. It was a great video. So when it started to turn, what did everybody say over Atlantic?

How much? And of course we took out an ad when it went platinum, which was just the middle his middle finger from zero zero zero Commas zero zero zero, right, And it ran directly opposite the Christian radio charts and Billboard. People don't remember that. And then when it hit ten million, we just moved it over and at a zero and it was just like, hey, you know what like this is?

And we did it right and it was fun and it was awesome, and uh, you know, I'll tell you actually a touching moment, which was that because he don't happen often enough in the business. But he became a superstar the day of the MTV Awards. You remember that, right, So the MTV Awards was a big show back then. It's a bigger show on cable TV. And I was

determined to get him on. And so MTV had said he was breaking, but he wasn't broken, and they had already booked Limp Biscuit and they were like, we don't need another rap rock thing, right, And I said all right, So me and Rock huddled and we decided we would reach out. He would reach out to run DMC and I would reach out to Steven Tyler. And because anyway, he's the you know, do you think about it, he's sort of the offspring of those two you know, movements

or whatever sounds. So we put together this idea that he would perform with Run d n C and Run DMC and Aerosmith. And then I called them TV and I said, you can have your limp biscuit if you want, or you can have run the m Cero Smith and Kid Rock and they said, yeah, we'll take We'll take the door number two. And so it's funny because that's

the day he became a superstar. And it's interesting when you watch it back and you see them if I remember right, yeah, I think Fred has a very unhappy face on as Zero Smith comes walking marching down the aisle,

Stephen and Joe come marching down the aisle. Um you know, because they kicked in the doors, right It started with it started with Bob with the Bob and then it went in to run DMC and then and then Steven and Joel kicked in the doors playing walk This Way and they performed Walked This Way with Kid Rock, and that's the night he became a superstar. So the touching part of the story is we had a party for him that night and some basement of some place downtown

and a lot of the bands came. I think Corn came and different people came, and it was pretty It was a good party. It was a good record company party. And about going close to two o'clock in the morning and watch them like, what the funk am I doing here? I don't drink, I don't do drugs. Unmarried, there's no

upside in me staying here any longer. Right, So I go up to Kid Rock and I said, uh, listen, you know, congratulations, Um, you know, just austome him job tonight, you know, the usual thing, right, And I walk away. We hug and I walk away and he goes, hey flom When I turnaround and he goes, uh, listen, I know it's been a long night, and I don't know. I don't mean to bring this up at a time it tasty goes, but um, thank you, And I was like, I think I'll remember that for a long time, and

I did, and I do because it doesn't last. You know, like my next question, with all this talent tends to come to an end. So what do we learn about talent? Well, I mean, you know there's that great book that John Seabrook wrote right about the what's it called this song? The Song Machine. Yeah, I was talking about some more about songwriters. But it's always fascinated me that artists have

a shelf life. Um. Actors, don't. You know a lot of actors can act until they're and even stay popular until they're in there you know late late, you know, later years, um. But they have a peak period of creativity and it burns so hot that maybe it just burns out, and you know, they can still perform live like that. You know theory about that in order to be successful artists, you have to be fucked up, and you have a fantasy that if you're successful it will

solve your issues. And then when you become successful and you partake of all the goodies and you realize you're still the same fund up guy, you lose the motivation. You can't do it anymore. But not all of them are fucked up. All of them are fucked up. Come on, they need they have a hole inside them that has to be filled by external validation, and they can never really be filled. But there's a few, and you can name a few that never went off the rails seemingly right,

never never went crazy. No, no, But I'm not trying to say they necessarily do drugs or you know, or on the verge of death. They just lose that incredible drive. Yeah, that's listen, that that's legit. But they but but but that loss only manifests itself in one way, which is their seeming inability to be able to make great records and exactly they can still perform. But I was more int listed in is being the business guy. Whether you're the manager, the A and R guy, or the label.

There comes a point where you're God and then all of a sudden, the talent turns against you and your ship. I'm sure I know you've had that happen a number of times in your career. Oh yeah, what what what's what's your insight on that? Forget there? Forget there artistic abilities? But you have a personal relationship, You live and die in the trenches and then your persona on gratta. So the people I most admired in the music business Amdertic and David Geffen Doug those are the three that come

to mind. They all told me the same thing. They said, they're all going to turn on you, and I was like, no, I don't think so. I mean, I don't want to believe that. I can't believe that. And this was at the time too. I remember when Kid Rock would sometimes introduce me as, hey, this is my dad. I mean he was half joking, but we had that type of relationship. We talked all the time. We did everything together. We plotted and schemed and did you know we created this

thing from a whole cloth, right. It was his music, don't get me wrong. And it's always about the talent, because there's nothing any of us can do without the talent. But we did a lot together, and um, you know, we're really close personally, and uh, you know, but they all gave me these amazing stories. I mean, the armed Bobby Darren's story comes to mind, you know, or any of them where it's just so it's so weird. Well,

I don't know the story. So Ammed told me that he uh, I think he discovered Bobby Darren and the lobby like they had a little like a little office above Patsy's restaurant back then, and Bobby used to just show up and sit and wait around, hoping to get an audience with herb Abrams and I think it was and Armed found him when they'd say a kid, can you play the piano? And he played the piano and arm and end up writing some of those records. I

think he maybe even written, Um. I don't know if he wrote Split Splash, but he wrote some of the great Bobby Darren records. And he mentored him, and Bobby gave a speech at the Grammys and called him and said, you know he said on stage. Apparently I haven't seen the speech, but I'm told me that said the most

moving things about him and everything else. And he goes on it becomes a big star and Mary's both don't even are a fabian or something right, and um the movie star at the time, and m it says one day he gets called to l A and goes to see him, and Bobby's got these two managers who I'm described as having these like nice manicures, these fancy suits, and they're driving around l A and this nice car

and they were driving past the Capital Tower. He said, and managers said to Bobby in front of them, it can you imagine if you were with a real record company like that, how big you would be. I mean, you would be the biggest star in the world in stera, etcetera. And Bobby bit and left him turned on him, and you know, I forgot all about everything you had done and this is his career, you know, tanked and whatever. But it didn't have to tank what it did. But

it's a shame. I mean, I've learned not to take it personally anyway, because I now realized that for the most part, it's true. And it may have something to do with the other theory of yours. I don't know, um, but I don't you know, I don't lose sleepover it anymore, like for what you know, Like I'm I'm happy for

their success. Um, I hope they're happy for mine. And um, you know, I'm I'm very fucking lucky to be able to play a part in this amazing thing called the music business and to be able to make a living doing what I love. So what the fuck? Okay jumping about? You know you're at Lava, they cash you out, Uh, you have a lot of money, then you become a head of Uh Virgin tell the Story is of Katy

Perry and thirty Seconds to Mars. So yeah. After a few number of other hits at Lava, Simple Plan, Transparian Orchestra, Bras became a big thing. The Uncle Cracker, Um, et cetera. There was others, Um the Cores right, Hugh jack Um, and we sold almost a hundred million records in eight years from my standing start. It was really fun. And anyway, they bought me out and they made me the chairman

of Atlantic, which was an amazing experience. It was short lived because of course, you know, everyone knows the or and I didn't get along, and it is what it is. I got fired over a poem I wrote, I don't remember that, but that's true. And then um, roses are reddish, violets are bluish our stocks in the toilet. But at least we're both Jewish. So um, yeah, that wasn't It didn't work out so well, but anyway, um, but it

was funny. So I got hired to run Virgin and it was so fun, so much fun because Virgin had been so cold for so long. The culture was fucked, everything was fucked, and uh, you know. It was great because the day that the I'd signed my contract but nobody knew it yet, and sitting in my den, uh, and I had this idea. At the time, the hottest movie in the country was a four year old Virgin, So I decided I would take a picture as him

and use that as my announcement. So I ran the ad Jason flamm is the forty four year old version. And it was lucky I was forty four because forty four is a funny number. Forty five not funny, forty three not funny, forty two definitely not funny, forty four funny. So that really set the tone for the new company that I wanted to build. I hired great people. I heard Jeff kempl Um, who was my CEO I hardly drank to be president. I hired Angelica cob back from

the old days, who was now at Columbia. Angelica. Um. It was funny because actually the first this is a story that's not well known, but uh, the day after I got my job, there's a Tuesday. I called a guy named Steve Tramposh and I said he was a guy who used to follow me around at clubs with a stack of research. He was a research just so laser focused. But I've never had anything for him to do. So I called him up. I thought maybe he wants to be a research guy. So he comes in and uh,

I said, what you've been up to? He says, I've been managing a band. I go, no kidding? What band? He says, A band called Red Jumpsuit Apparatus. I said, oh, let me here. So he puts it on and he's playing that song, phase down and halfway through, and I said, I'm signing that. He says, you can't. I said why not? He because you can't. He says, because we're signing a record deal with Capital tomorrow. I go tomorrow. What do you mean to more? He goes tomorrow. I said tomorrow.

What are you talking about? He says, no, we have execution copies. I said, get the band on the phone. Got the band on the phone. I said, I'm flying these guys up to New York tomorrow. I got I think it was Kevin from the Warp Tour. Didn't somebody somebody at the Warp too. I think it might have been Kevin, But anyway, I don't want to misspeak. But I got him to call up and say, listen, if feel uh, I feel signed with farm and really increase

your chances of getting on the tour. And the warp tour was the thing to be on those days, right, and I really I lined it up and they flew up the next day. I took him to dinner and we literally, because it was a sister company of ours, we got the document that's from internally, we got it sent. We scratched out the name Capital Road in virgin and

they signed the deal. And it was funny because I got a call the next day from my boss was Alan Leavy was the head of the whole thing, my immediate boss, with David Muttons who was for all on and Alan called, He goes, what the fun did you do? I go, what did I do? I signed a ban? He goes no, and he's and he's going crazy that and he was ahead of cap Capital. He goes, he's going crazy. He said, what do you you stole the band? I said, Look, I'm sorry, I said, I I'm sorry.

I thought you wanted me to come in. I thought you wanted me to win, like I thought you me to turn this dump around. I said, if you want me to come in second on stuff. You better tell me now, I said, I didn't mean to steal the band from but he had it and I wanted it, and if my grandmother would have had it, I would have stolen it from her. You know what am I gonna do? So anyway, and they had a platinum record out of the box. It blew up. So that was

a great way to start. And then, um, you know, then Angelica calls me one day or says to me, you know, you should meet this girl Katie Perrys. Who's Katie Perry? She said she's signed to Columbia. I think they're gonna drop her. I think she's the star. I met Katie at the Polo Lounge when she walked in and sat down, and I went, this girl's a star,

like this is no question about it. And as soon as I started talking to her, like the story matches everything, Like she's got the background, the thing, and I couldn't wait to hear the music. I heard the music, I

loved it and ultimately signed her. Um and uh, you know, sort of serendipitously, you know, she showed up that I invited her to our Grammy party because this was we just signed her at the beginning of the year and I invite her the the Grammy Party and she walked in with Dr Luke, So I was like, oh my god, you guys areach other. Oh yeah, we're friends. I said, well,

you're gonna work together. And I had known Luke because I gave him his first break in the business when he was a guitar player side and I've actually signed him to a record deal UM, and I thought, this is gonna be great. And I really forced that UM collaboration to happen because it was some resistance from people UM, but it was and of course Luke's always driven a

hard bargain, but we made it happen. And of course that became really a lynch pin and her well, the lynch pin her success, and so with that combination was just magical. I couldn't have known that. And then of course I Kissed a girl came out and just became

this monster. And it's funny because I've had two hits what songs called I Kiss because Jill Sobiel, who I signed it was the first artist I signed at Lava the first time UM, and it was with Atlantic, had a song called I kissed the girl with Fabby in the video and it wasn't it wasn't a hit like this, but it was a hit. So and then uh, thirty

seconds to Mars. So here's the funny thing. So when you take over a new record company, UM, I hadn't had this experience before, but because when I came into Atlantic, I was already Atlantic. But so I I get the job at Virgin and I a box of CDs arrived at my house and I'm like, what am I supposed to do with this? Like, how are you supposed to digest that much music and make any sort of informed

decision about what to do with these different arts? So you talk to people, you ask, you listen, you schmooze whatever, and everyone's like this thirty seconds of warch you gotta get rid of it. It's a vanity project for an actor. It's just another dog Star or whatever the hell it is. And they had an album that flopped and the new album isn't doing anything, and I was like, I guess I should probably drop it. But they happened to be on tour with Audio Slave and they were playing at

Madison Square Garden, so I said I should go. So I went and the show was incredible, and I went to dinner with them afterwards, and I was sitting with Jared and he told me that he had just turned down a starring or co starring role in new Cline Eastwood movie. And I was like, what, I go, We'll come again, and he goes, yeah. I said, why did you do that? He goes, because I I had too, he says, I. I got a call from Clinton and he says, you know, kid, what are you doing? And

I said, I can't do it. I'm on tour with my band. And they were playing clubs back then. I mean, they got the autos lator, but mostly they're playing a little clubs and you know he uh, it wasn't well received by Mr Eastwood. Um, and I said, that's the most rock and roll thing I've heard in a long time. And I'm gonna make you a star. I gonna break your band. And so I gave them money to make a video, and uh, I called them TV. They made

the video. I call I call them TV. As they were making the video and I said, I'm gonna make a video with thirty seconds to Mars, and you guys are gonna play it in a rotation that I deem appropriate, or I'm going to stage a hunger strike in your lobby. I said, I'm going to bring an espresso machine because I can't live without caffeine. But I'm gonna sit there a cross legged until you play it the way you're

supposed to. And the good news was he made that remarkable video for The Kill where he sort of you know, took to the plot line from the Shining and you know, everything he does is remarkable. It just doesn't even make any sense. He's one of those people like Jamie Fox, who like everything they do is fucking perfect and it's almost unbelievable. And so uh so, yeah, we ended up breaking the band and um, having really a great run with them. Okay, so Virgin, your job bands is a

long business thing having nothing to do with you. And you start over with Universal and you sign lord. Can you fill us in on that? Yeah? So I left there they preached my contract, um, and I left, and um, you know, I partnered up with Monty and Avery because I had had a friendly Yeah, I had a friendly arriving with him over these Monty I used to speak four times a year and we would compare notes every time I was breaking something, seemed like he was breaking something,

and vice versa. I remember Monty was a promotion guy for Daniel Glass at s p K, So I thought it wasn't I'm always breaking something and they're always breaking Something's get together and break something. So we did, and we always had a mutual respect and so, um, you know, not too long after I got there, Well, jesse Ja came first, of course, But um, and it hasn't all

been you know, line and roses. We're obviously talking about the good parts of my career, but there have been a lot of frustrating and things and setbacks and etcetera. But um, a woman named Natalia roma Chefski who was a she worked at at a jingle place. She was like a music supervisor or something like that, and she and I had been friends and she would send me music time to time, and she sent me an email which I now have framed and autocraft and dedicated by Lord.

And the email the subject line was hot shit and then it just said unsigned New Zealand female listen and that soundclad link and on the bottom she wrote, I'm not sure if this is your type of thing, but I thought you should check it out. So I put this fucking thing on Bob and it was Royals and you know, I think love Club and and I called her up and I go, what the fund did I just listened to? And she goes, I don't know. She said, somebody just sent it to me. I thought I'd send

it to you. I said, how do we find her? So found her address on Facebook. I emailed Lord and she wrote me back and next thing I know him on the phone with her parents, and I think she may have been on the call and her manager, and I said, you know, I think your daughter's gonna win Grammys, and um, you know, we did the deal and I got there just in time. You know, she had two hundred soundclown plays when I did you fly to New Zealand though a little while after that. Yeah, I went

to her first gig. I think it was her first gig she had ever done with the original material. And it was awesome. By the way, there was seventy people there, but she was Lord. So the deal was made before you flew to New Zealand. Yeah, the deal was made. And it was funny too, because when I was in New Zealand, I got an email from Sean Parker I have a long history with and Seawan emailed Lucian Grange and copied me and he said, hey, you know, I just came across this girl lord. I think you guys

should check it out. And I wrote him back and said, she's sitting right next to me at a cafe in

Auckland right now. It is a great moment, you know, so um so yeah, but she was she was like I think she sprang from the womb, like fully formed, because she was on stage, confident, um, you know, just doing her thing and the was those songs like you know, they say there's three things that children can become geniuses at, which is music, math and chess, and you know, she created a work of absolute genius when she was fourteen

years old. I mean, it's just it always amazed me about her because it's like, if she's a young teenager in New Zealand, there's at least an argument that says she really couldn't have experienced hardly anything, but it seemed like she knew everything exactly. The explanation is that she read a thousand books by the time she was twelve, but still, it's it's just a remarkable piece of work. And then weren't her parents reluctant they wanted her to

stay in school? Yeah, one of them was, and uh, I was was in favor of her becoming a lawyer, and I said, you know what, I come from a family of lawyers, and I promise you there's enough lawyers and your daughter has a real chance to win Grammy's. And of course, um, you know, Joel Little did that beautiful, beautiful album, and um and I remember when she called me up and told me the title of it was going to be Pure Heroine and I almost I almost fell down. I mean, it is, it is so that

title is batshit fucking crazy. I mean it's so good, right, and the black cover and the white right, it's perfect. It's like some ziggy stardust type of perfection. And I don't want to compare to David Bowie because whatever, but I mean, you know, and he's not even here anywhere, But that was one of my favorite albums of all time because it was perfect. But it's out. That album is perfect and even the title is pure Heroin with an e onion and Lord has an onion? Get the

funk out of here. Where did that what depths of your soul did that spring from? Because it's amazing. Okay, So you sent me a video where you actually spoke in Canada at a large convention center six thousand people. And in the speech you gave, you talked about being depressed. Can you tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,

I went through a you know, I was. First of all, it was such a thrill to open for Tony Robbins in Canada's the speech that I sent you, And um, I'm hoping to do more with We're work with him because he's a force of nature. But that's beside the point. Um. So I spoke about the fact that about seven or eight years ago, I hit a low point when a lot of things sort of happened at once and um, and it spiraled me into a state of depression. And and those things, I mean, both of my parents died

relatively close to each other. I had recently been separated. You know, I was missing my kids and my dogs and my life. And I had a terrible professional experience, the worst one I've ever had. I had fallen in love and then had my heartbroken. You remember that nonsense and um and so uh, you know, and then I was angry at myself for being depressed, because you know, I work at the Innocence Project, right and I deal with people every day who had, you know, spent decades

in prison for the crimes they didn't commit. And then I'm sitting there going, how what right do I have to feel this way? And so I was just really in a very low place, you know, and I wasn't sure I was ever going to get out of it, and so how did you get out of it? You know? I had this feeling at the time, Bob that I said this on stage that everything good that had ever happened to me was everything good that was ever gonna

happen to me. There were gonna be no more hit records, There's gonna be no more women that were going to be attracted to me, there was gonna be no more love in my life. Everything. So I was in l A and uh, two things happened. When was a friend of mine named Hannah Schmider. She says to me, boy, you're a fucking mess. And I said, yeah, I'm a fucking mess. I's here for the Brampton. She said, you gotta go see Jessica. I go, who's Jessica. She said

she's an intuitive. I said, I don't know what that is, but I'm going and uh, I went to see this uh, this woman named Jessica Rannick. Uh and she are any kay? And she turned my whole shit around. I mean, like in one session she told me why I was feeling it the way I was. What did you learn that session? Well, she told me why I was feeling the way I was feeling, what had happened, and what to do about it? And just very quickly what what did she say to do?

Why were you feeling that way? Well? She was the first one that explained to me. And I had wasted a lot of time going to shrinks, you know, ever since my it she had fallen apart, or even before that, every since I knew it was falling apart, and UM had really hadn't made any progress. And she was the first one that explained to me that the reason I was feeling I was feeling I had a lot to do with the fact that I got no love from my mother, you know, which is again when I met

what was me whatever? People have real problems, right, but still I was the first time anyone had made that connection it really, it just clicked something off in my brain. She also said to me, just just to be clear, did your mother acknowledge your success? Yeah? In letters? She could write letters, and she was she was a great letter writer, but she couldn't say it. So, um it was.

It was a weird thing. Okay. So the second thing she said, so I'll never forget, she says to me, Um, I was, I was, you know, moaning about this lost love which I thought it was, which was actually a dysfunctional mess. And I said, you know, I don't think I'm not charming enough, I'm not attractive enough. I don't think any more. And she goes, how about if I make a list of five million beautiful women that would drop what they're doing right now to marry your sorry

fucking ass. And I was like, because she curses like that, And I was like really, She's like yeah. I was like, huh, I don't know. But it actually sort of like I was like, Wow, she believes it. Maybe I should believe it too. No shrink is ever going to talk to you like that. So it was a combination of things she said and and and things she did and just the way she spoke to me and the way she cut through the bullshit, you know, and she did and then um, and it's it's funny because you're in the

studio with us today. But anyway, it's a coincidence. It's not like we follow each other around all day. But but I we've we've been close over the years, and I've sent so many people. I'm sure some man of the people listening to this podcast have been to see her because I've sent so many people to see her over the years with remarkable results. Um. And another thing happened at the same time, too, which is that I think it was Don Passman told me to call Rabbi Mark.

So I went to see Rabbi Mark. Who is Rabbi Mark. He's a life coach and is he actually a rabbi? Yeah, but he's had a crazy life story. He was in jail and he's had hits taken out on him by loan sharks and all sorts of crazy things. We did a walk and talk for an hour and he's counseled some legendary people in music industry and he Uh, we did a walk and talk for an hour and he says to me, here's what you're gonna do, go home, look in the mirror and say the following words out loud.

I'm important and I matter, and then start acting like it, he says, because you're not. He goes, you're letting everybody and everything push you around, and that's not who you are. And start, you know, start behaving in a way like you matter. And and I did, and it helped, you know, it all helped. And I, like I said to you earlier, we're talking on when I went to see Jessica, I walked in feeling like a zero. And I didn't come out feeling like a hero, but I felt I came

out feeling like a seven. And then the my energy really changed and things started really Okay, You've had this peripatetic, incredibly successful career in the music business and the thirty or forty years you have left personally, what would you

like to achieve? Um? Well, you know, as you know, my overriding passion, obsession whatever for the last twenty five years has been reforming the criminal justice system, a limiting mandatory sentencing, decriminalizing weed, and most importantly, getting people out of prison that don't belong there. I mean, that's really

and and that has you know been. I mean, I've been at the Innocence Project on the founding board member of the Inncence Project that I've been working on that just for people who maybe out of the loop, explain what the Innocence Project is. So, the Innocence Project is an organization that utilizes DNA to prove innocence in cases in which people have been convicted of heinous violent crimes. Um. It doesn't always prove innocence, by the way, supin as

it proves guilt, but we're able to re examine cases. Uh. And we know now that the incidents of wrongful convictions in this country are astoundingly high. There have been so many executions of people who are innocent and um and it it just it touches me in a way. I mean, I've always been a very empathetic person. I've always wanted to help the helpless, um, whether that's a person and

animal or whatever. And I could never think of anything worse than being locked up in our gulag system and these violent, dark, terrible places of these prisons that we have here for something you didn't do. And so um, so it's been my mission to help get these people out that are actually innocent and then to help them once they do get out, because it's the second punishment when you get out and you have you know, you've missed twenty years, Right, what do you do? How's your

resume looking? How do you use a phone? How do you don't even know what an ATM card is? How do you get a license? Like? It's a it's a you know, it's a Really it's an unbelievable thing for people to go through, and it happens, like I said, way too often. So so that's been my h that's been my thing, and that's what I want to and that's what I'm That's not what I want to do. Is what I'm going to keep doing until my last breath. Okay, So that is very soul fulfilling, not incredibly lucrative at

this point in time, business making money, business status? How important to you? Yeah, it's it's not lucrative at all. It's actually the opposite. But it's fine. I mean, it doesn't matter. Um no, I'm really it's funny. Uh. You know Ron Burkele who's the legendary um supermarket supermarket king but entrepreneur in hundred a hundred companies. He go into something. It's it's at breakfast one this morning. But Ron uh Ron said something interesting to me. I reminded him of

this today. He said to me, you know, guys like you, successful guys typically after they get divorced take about three years to make back all the money they gave away in the divorce. And now it's funny because I see what he was talking about. I mean, I am in I'm in such heavy work mode, and I'm feeling more creative and inspired than I have in memory. And I'm much more interested in that than doing you know, well, I want to build businesses. I want to continue to

work in the music industry. Of course, I'm having this wonderful success with Greti van Fleet right now, which is just the most fun and um, and you know, I want to create new things and I want to make a lot of fucking money so I can give it away. Okay, So at this point in time, how much of your day is filled with philanthropy and how much time with business. I spend a lot of time on philanthropy. I have no idea what the percentages, but it's a lot and um.

But it actually, you know, it's good too. I mean artists are attracted to me sometimes because of the fact that they know about me from that work, you know, so it really works together, UM. And you know, of course I launched my podcast I don't know whatever it was four seasons ago, a year, a year and a half ago, and that's been, you know, a real joy for me. And what are you telling the audience exactly

what the podcast is? So I have a podcast called Wrongful Conviction UM, and on the podcast, I interview each week a man or woman who was wrongly convicted and sentenced to decades or life in prison, or even sentenced to death and ultimately exonerated and proven actually innocent. And you know, some of them served thirty or more years in prison for something they did not do and again

and some of them were sentenced to death. And sometimes I go inside prisons as well, inside maximum security prisons to interview people who I have evidence are innocent, but for whom the justice system is not working, and so to help bring attention to their cases. We recently had one of our people that was on the show exonerated UM in Kansas City after twenty three years, which was such a wonderful feeling. And called me from the courthouse steps.

So you know, it's an incredibly rewarding process. The things you pick up from the people themselves who are so graceful and so kind and so optimistic and they lack bitterness, and I don't understand it. I asked every one of them, and I've heard them all explained it in different ways. But you know, it's amazing because it puts so much gratitude in my attitude. I mean, the idea that I'm able to help them. And it's funny, Bob, because now

it's like when you walked in today. I was on the phone with a guy who's in a maximum security prison in Virginia whose case I've been working on for a year and it's gonna be featured. You know, my phone rings a lot with calls like that, and I've was recently, um know, very very lucky to get um clemency for three people actually last week who were serving life in prison through just hard work and connecting the dots. And that's outside of the Innocence Project, because I take

on cases on my own sometimes too. Obviously there's only so much a person, one person can do. But I heard about a case in this particular situation, not a guy who was innocent, but it got named Travian Blount, who had been sentenced to six life terms plus a hundred and eighteen years in prison. He was fifteen years old and he participated in a robbery. No one was shot. One person got hit, but they weren't seriously hurt, and not by him. And it was the robbery of a party.

He shouldn't have been there, he shouldn't have participated. He did carry a gun, he didn't have any prior arrest though, it was fifteen fucking years old. And this has gotten national news because it's so outrageous that it's just unbelievable and so um he was one of the people who I was able to help. Um convinced the powers that

be should be freed, and he was granted clemency last week. So, if we could do two things in America or the criminal justice system to move things in the direction that you're mentioning, we're in a innocent people are not incarcerated, what would those be. That's a great question. I mean,

there are so many problems I think we need. One of the first changes we need is mandatory videotaping of interrogations um, because there's so many false confessions, and it's important for people who are listening to know that when you go on a jury, you need to have a more informed and educated and skeptical view. I'm not a person who doesn't believe of injustice system. I'm I always

say I'm not soft on crime, I'm tough on injustice. Um, I'm not an anarchist by any means, but you need to know that just because somebody confess, or just because the police officers saying this, or just because of prosecutorcy this, or just because a quote unquote expert is saying X, Y or Z doesn't mean it's true. And you have an obligation to be there for your fellow human being and really dive into it and make an informed decision whether it's guilty or innocent. You better try your best

to get it right. And I think a lot of people like I used to have a view that if the authority figures up there saying something, it must be true, and if somebody confess, it must be that they're guilty. But how the funk do we not videotape interrogations? How do you because what happens is Bob and they're only there are twenty five states now that have managed with video tape interrogation, twenty five that don't, and only one that's just for just for by edification. Does it breakdown

on red and blue? Uh? I don't know. No, I don't think so, because New York only recently passed it. Um it didn't have it for all these years. I mean so, And you know what happens is they they'll go, you go in that little room, and I had to detective them. I'm retired. Any TV detective on my show and YPD detective on my show recently who said, if I got you in that room, you weren't leaving until you confessed, And I was like, and then, you know

they can lie. First of all, anyone's listening. If you get arrested, you know what you should say nothing. You should say I want a lawyer, and stop talking, because once they get you in that room, they can lie all they want. They go, Bob, listen, man, we got your fingerprints on the murder weapon. We have a videotape of you at the place we got your co conspirit or in the other rooms saying you did it. You better come clean. Man. Because it's the best way out

for you. You know you're gonna get we're gonna be nice to you if you confess, and they there's so many cases people have been on my show who've been beaten in those rooms and then they bring you out of the room. They had a whole protocol called the Red method that is designed. It's a it's a psychological technique that's designed to elicit confessions, whether the person is guilty or innocent, and it works. And sometimes violence, actual

violence is employed. Sometimes it's psychological violence. But either way, you get so trapped in that room that you see no way out other than to tell them what they want to hear. And many of these people like Johnny and Cape who was on my show, who was convicted of that notorious murder in New York State where the tourists were there going to the US Open and a gang of kids got on the subway to rob them and the mother was being pushed around and the son

came to her aid and was stabbed to death. Johnny was convicted of that murder even though they knew he wasn't there, and he was tortured in the police station. Um he was he was beaten, he had hair pull out of his head, and at one point a cop who was a notorious cop who was also involved in the Central Part five case said to him, Um, we're gonna kill you and dump your body in the alley, and no one's gonna know about it unless you signed this piece of paper. So he says, you know, people

say to me, why would I confess? I say, why wouldn't I confess? I've seen what they're capable of? Right, And he was a guy's eighteen years old that's never been in trouble with dancer. D you imagine yourself that situation. So nancwer tap of interrogation, and I think that we

must have prosecutorial accountability. There's a story about an exonarian named Robert Jones has been on my podcast, who served twenty three years in prison, and he not only did they know he was innocent, but in his case, it was a crime spree that continued after he was arrested with exactly the same m O, which led to a very violent crime spree, which led to the homicide detective

who had originally arrested him going to the prosecutor. As he was being held in jail, and saying, listen, man, I've been doing this for thirty years and I never said this before, but I arrested the wrong guy. It's not him, and the prosecutors said, I don't care, And so this guy was uh. It took four years for him to get to trial. He was held in jail for four years, and they framed him so egregiously. And now he has filed suit today against the New Orleans

Prosecutor's office for uh. He's shown he able to show forty five individual cases, including his own, of prosecutorial misconduct, of withholding exculpatory evidence, of lying, of cheating, of gaming the system of doing such egregious things that led to innocent people, many of whom were sentenced to death. You know, Like so yeah, I mean, and I could we could go on with this all day, but I mean, we gotta.

We have to abolish the death penalty. I mean, here in California they just passed a horrendous death penalty speed up referendum, Like, what's beat up? What the funk are you talking about? Speed it up? Well, you know, I just remember, you know, I come from a background where you know, what is the real truth? I remember your Jewel at the nineties Atlanta Olympics. I was convinced that guy was guilty. He wasn't. So there are plenty of people who are really not guilty and conventional wisdom, but

our society has turned it large. I mean, I'm a child of the sixties, love, peace and happiness, where now it's I've got mine, screw you. So ultimately going. But moving from this very important work back to the business sphere. In your thirty five odd your career, what are the changes that you've seen in entertainment i e. Music that I don't mean like a delineation of what literally happened.

We all know about MTV and Napster, but in terms of what music means, the society, where the acts come from, where it all leads. How do you assess today as opposed to earlier in your career. Well, I'm hoping that music will, um, you know, take a turn towards the activism side, um, which is obviously such a big part of my life, and that people will artists will start creating um, you know, the modern day equivalent of Ohio or Masters of War or some of the great protest songs.

And there have been some mostly from now. It's coming from the hip hop side, but I think rock is going to make a comeback and I'm excited. So told me why. You have Greta Van Fleet, which is the most successful rock band of the last twelve months. But they made it to number one Active Rock, but it hasn't permeated the culture at large. What do you think is going on there? Oh, yeah, it's it's I think I think you have to disagree with you there. I

think it's definitely permeating the culture at large. I have every day, including on the way over here at somebody tell me that they're they're fifteen sixty year old kids who don't listen to anything like this are jamming out to Greta Van Fleet. It's it's you know, it's gone viral and we're just scratching the surface now. But it's been at the top of the iTunes charts forever. The streaming numbers are catching up, the ticket sales are insane. So what does it take to make it as big

as a hip hop track? Oh? I think that they're gonna you know, they're gonna, of right, They've already written at least one song that I think is going to really catch the you know, a very different segment of the audience and propel them to much greater heights. I think it's all happening the way it's supposed to, you know, like it shouldn't. They shouldn't be overnight successes, but they

are actually if you think about it. But yeah, it's it's a it's a great slow build that's going to get to a place where they're going to be headlining arenas in twelve to eighteen months, and and the record sales will catch up accordingly. So you believe we're poised for a rock comeback. Were pois for a rock comeback? You know. I've recently established the movement called the Church of Rock and Roll, which I'm very excited about. And it's a lifestyle brand wrapped up in a movement which

stands for all the things I believe in. You know, our first commandment is be kind to yourself, to other people, to animals in the earth. Um. And that's UM and it flows out her from there. It's all about personal freedom and expression and UM and being you know, being

the best version of you and and helping other people. Right. Um. It's the opposite of objectivism, so to speak and um and I uh and it feels like this is going to be I mean, this is this is to me my next and my really my biggest act because I believe this is going to become transformative and um, and

I'm really excited. I'm I'm talking to some of the most amazing people in the world, some of the top business people with expertise that I couldn't begin to approach, who are all excited about building, building this into a you know, I want I wanted to be the counterculture Margaritaville. You know that's my idea. And I'm not gonna get into all the details now, but you're gonna see it emerging and it's really exciting and fun. Jason, You've been wonderful.

We've only scratched the surface. Thanks so much for appearing. Thank you, and please don't forget to follow me on Instagram at it's Jason Flam because that's where I post my best stuff. And also, how do they find your podcast? The podcast is Wrongful Conviction. It's available everywhere iTunes, Pandora, Spotify, um, It's available on every everywhere. Also tune in. Thanks so much, Jason. Until next time, It's Bob Left Set. We've got a wonderful time here with Jason Flower Bob here. I want

to thank everyone for listening to this episode. If you heard something in this episode or a previous episode that piqued your interests, go ahead and email your comments to be at Bob at left sets dot com. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the stories we covered, and there's sure to be more exciting ones to come. Tune in next week for more edification and information. Until next time, it's Bob Left Set