Hayes Carll

and flew home. And UM, I was fortunate to be had I'd been on the road for a couple of months, so I was in decent shape financially and um, and you know, nobody knew how long this was gonna go on. So we thought we were okay and just try to do some fundraising and help people out. UM. But then as it continued, you know, it started to hit me. The way I make my living, or had made my living for the most part for twenty years, was gone, and we didn't know when it was gonna come back.

So we started doing a lot of people did and doing live streams. I had done that years before on Facebook. I used to do a showdown in Austin at a place called the Saxon Pub and I would we would stream it on Facebook. We just never thought to monetize it. I thought, how cool is this The people in Ireland or Ireland are watching my show, or people in Idaho or wherever. I was reaching all these people, and that

was significant to me. And I knew there was something there, but I just never thought to put a tip jar up. And um so when the pandemic came, I had some experience with that and and and so now with the ability to for people to support you, um we were up and running. And uh so I started doing them and and uh I was afraid that, you know, every week, I just thought this isn't sustainable because it was people were being very generous and and but at a certain point,

I thought the bottom was gonna fall out. So I started working two. Um. I made it a priority to show my appreciation and decided that I wanted my show and then supporting my show to be the last thing that they took out of the budget, you know, the sort of discretionary income. So my wife's a musician as well, and she was doing shows and she was sending postcards to people, um who had supported her, and so I started doing the same. And then I started making a

new postcard every week. And then I started um uh adding set lists and and um and doing two three four hour shows, and I started taking requests and asking people to tell me stories about their life and what was going on or about my music. And over a period of about a year and a half, I did uh sixty five shows or something and built up a community um and uh it felt like a family. I just got much closer to my audience in a way

that than I ever had before. And that was really uh significant for me, not just emotionally, uh not just financially during that time to keep us alive, but but and like everybody else, we were isolated and kind of quarantined and and too even if I couldn't see people, to know, there was five thousand people every Tuesday at six pm tuning in and I was sending on postcards and they were sending me request and there was there was a relationship there in a connection and it was

really incredible and kind of made me rethink my my career, which had always just been about touring, touring, touring, grinding on the road, and uh so, um it gave me a really good chance to reset and an opportunity to connect with my fans and kind of re prioritized and figure out what was important to me. Okay, let's start with the actual live stream. The first time you did it, How did you make people aware that you were doing it? Well, I did a couple of things that prepared me for

the pandemic. I had a Patreon page going. This is probably five years ago, and I had I had sort of hit a a point in life where I was struggling creatively and and it had been four or five years in between records, and so I got Patreon really just to have an outlet for music because I was starting to feel pressure on myself too. Um, my creative flow was blocked and and so I just wanted a way, a a pressure way to release music and songs that I thought were cool and working producers that I thought

were interesting. Um, that didn't affect my career in my life, And so I started Patreon and then I started doing the live stream, and I combined the two. Well, well, well, let's stay with Patreon then, since you started there. Yeah, so when you first started Patreon. How did you drive people to Patreon? Just social media? Basically, I I just went on. I made the banners of all my pages, you know, an image, and only most people didn't know what it was at the time. I didn't know what

it was. My my manager at the time, uh, Mike Crowley. I brought this idea to me, and um, it seemed interesting, so we we set it up and I just tried to figure out what I was gonna do, which was okay. We got a lot of things going on here. You say Mike Crowley was your manager, which would imply he's not your manager anymore. Correct. What happened there? We just we had a really good run, um uh for close to fifteen years, and you know, I just reached a time where it was it was time for us to

move on, and so we did. We're still friends and uh no ill will of any kind. Just uh. I have a lot of gratitude for him. And do you have a manager now? I do? I do? UM, I had I got a second manager after Mike, and then um we split up during the pandemic and uh now I work with Holly Lohman with Red Light Management. How

did you get hooked up there. Uh, she works with some people I know, and UM, a lot of folks, my my wife, my attorney, UM, and just a lot of people in the business who knew I was looking and needed help. UM recommended her. Her name just kept coming up. So I I just cold called her and said, uh, you know, let's meet for lunch and and talk it over. And so we we hit it off and she had room for me, and and so we've been at it for uh, you know, almost a year now. Okay, Now,

red Light is a unique business model. I won't go into all the depth at this point in time, but they're managers to have individual acts, but they all work together. Do you find any benefit having your manager part of a larger organization in this case red Light. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think there's still things I'm waiting to see, you know, how much they pay off. But I know that she can see what's happening with with a lot of other acts, and she's in close contact with a

lot of other managers. UM. And and I think some things as basic as they send out a memo saying you know this, these people are looking for a song for a commercial, or here's a here's an opening opportunity or you know supports lot or that might be good or um. So it's it's similar to you know, if you're with a booking agency, some things are going to come across the table that may not have been aimed at you, but but you and benefit from them. So

you made people aware of Patreon. On social media? What platforms are you on? Which ones work? And how active are you? I am on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and I guess I'm on Twitch, although I don't know how I'm smile. But if you're on Twitch, begs a question are you a gamer? And I'm not? No, okay, but you're on Twitch, so yeah, go into those three platforms

and how you're using, etcetera. I have gone back and forth over the years from being very involved to uh not touching them from a month and it's it's it's a struggle. I think a lot of musicians and a lot of people period, but I seem to have this conversation all the time with folks. Uh, it's this love hate relationship like where we know it's essential or we feel like it's essential. We feel like we're missing out

if we're not posting everything. We do all the time and building this rapport and forming people I don't even know. I struggle with how essential it really is. Um. But but most of the time I think it's incredibly important and something that I need to do. But I also don't like doing it and I'm really uncomfortable doing it. Um it's all my insecurities come out with it. Here's here's what I'm thinking. Do you like me? Here's the thing I'm gonna do. Are you gonna respond to it?

And and then I'm looking at other people's reactions and it's hard not to compare and say, well this this person has way more followers, or this person is funnier than I am, and I find that it can lead to uh kind of unhealthy um thing for me. And and um it's also time consuming. So um I my my wife the last couple of months has been helping me out um with it, and it's been a godsend because I now I just pick it up if I want to look at the new is or something. But

I don't have to. It's a full time job, you know. It's it's it's I want to be writing songs, you know, are living life. So you mentioned your insecurities said, those may feed your creativity, but what are your insecurity since you mentioned them, well, my insecurities point, um, yeah, I've got them all. It's uh, it's a constant work. I mean insecurities about my my talents, my my my voice, my looks, my physique, my career, my um, you know,

the job as a parent. Um Uh, there's there's a lot of a lot of self doubt and uncertainty and healthy amount is healthy. Um. But well, I guess the question would be, you know, we live in an era where people boast, and especially on social media institum am being the prime example of that. To what degree does that self confidence and people do you think help them

or hurt them? Musicians? I'm speaking of the self confidence people we you know, we all know we forget the raw level who someone really is in terms of evidencing themselves in public. A lot of people demonstrate an incredible self confidence. And if you have insecurities, you know, I find this myself. I have insecurities and then all these people got they're all telling me I have the great and they're beating me down. And then every once while, I can you know detach and said, well, I've met

a lot of people. This has got more to do with that person than me, and it's just bluster. But should I evidence more self confidence? So to become a public figure and musician, that requires a certain amount of belief in yourself and self confidence. So did you feel that, Hey, man, I've got something to deliver, I'm entitled or is it?

Have you been tentative along? I've been pretty tentative. I mean, there there are times, just like in life with my my personality in real life, there are times where I'm incredibly confident and um, and there are times where I'm crippling, crippling, lee insecure, and there's times where I have a pretty good balance. Um. And you know that's probably been reflected

in my social media. UM. I just I find the I am expected to be or I feel like I'm expected to be confident or I need to be confident to put stuff out there, and that feels like a disconnect sometimes because I want to. Um, I work really hard at being connected with myself and not getting disconnected, and there feels like a major disconnect sometimes when I say, hey, here's this great thing going on, and I may not be in a great place that day. It's not reflective

of my actual life. It's reflective of one part of my career or or one moment in my life. And and so that's a that's just a thing that I've battle with is is uh. It does not feel seamless like here, here's where I am in life, and then here's why I'm on social media. Um. That that bothers me. That, Um, I feel like I have to to put out some sort of something. I don't know, maybe I take it all too seriously, but it's this is great. No, you're

you're being honest like you are in your music. And that's why it resonates, which begs the question using that term again, what works on social media? What gets a reaction? Well, you know, I find that when I am honest, that tends to work when I tell uh some part of my story in a real way, because I can post, hey, I here's something cool I did and crickets and I can say here's a struggle I had, and I get

a response. And so that's been informative to me. Doesn't make it necessarily easier to put that out there, but I have I have learned that I think people want connection and and that you know, asked about the pandemic that that was. That was my big takeaway was people wanted connection, They wanted something authentic and and I think I spent many years feeling like I needed to be something that I wasn't because there I needed to be a front man, I needed to be a rock singer,

I needed to be a drunk and whatever. And and it's really hard to just be what you are, whatever it is in that moment, to be vulnerable and and when you're in the public eye. And so yeah, that's that's I guess the struggle. Okay, so which of these platforms you mentioned Twitter? You mentioned Facebook and Instagram for your audience, which one has the largest audience in terms of when you actually say something as opposed to the number of followers, It says probably Facebook still um, with

Instagram being second and Twitter as a distant third for me. Okay, so let's go back. You decide to go on Patreon. There's a way to spur your creativity. You put out the message. Two things, one how many people actually bite and the nature of Patreon is their different tiers. What

were the different tiers you established? I think my initial so I've had two sort of runs with Patreon, and the first time I did it for a couple of years and I had three four folks on there, and my tears went from a dollar to a hundred dollars And essentially I just told them you're going to get a song a month and then here's a few extra things. I wasn't all that creative with it, but I just tried to figure out some way to make it worth their while financially. But the money. I wasn't looking at

it to live off the money. I was looking at it to get money to pay producers so that I could go. I worked. My first one was with John Levinthal and then I went work to Charlie Sexton or just different people um um uh that I just really wanted to play music with. And and so that's what it was. I wasn't really profiting off of it. It was just giving me the opportunity to to pay people

that I wanted to work with. Okay, so if someone signed up for a hundred dollars, what they get, you know, I don't even remember what I was offering back then. I'll just skip real quick to where it is now. Well, well, let's let's hold that for a second. Okay, So you start, you're doing it for creative purposes. People are paying monthly to what degree? And I think it's inherent. You're seeing whether the numbers are staying steady, going up, going down?

And to what degree did you feel you had to service people to a degree in order to make sure they stayed on? Yeah? I, Uh, the numbers were pretty consistent as long as I was consistent. But then I stopped being consistent, and then people express frustration and say, you know, what are we paying for? You're not really delivering. And so I felt like I was taking my best fans and and rather than making them closer to me, that I was making them regret trusting me. And I

didn't like that. So, and I had just made a new record using a lot of the songs, you know, different recordings, but a lot of the songs that I had written and recorded initially on Patreon um and so I decided to shut it down and so I could pay attention and focus on the on the record, and uh, that's what so I gave it. It was about two years that I went with it, and it was it

was wonderful to get to make music. But then it felt like a job, started to feel like a full time job, and I was I had a pretty busy life at that point. Decided to put it away for a minute, but you restarted it. What was the motivation of restarting? What's different or the same about it now? Yeah, So that was another another result of the pandemic UM and I was fortunate that even though I had shut it down, I still had I don't know, three hundred

or so of my the followers were still there. And so I just put it back out and said, Okay, I'm gonna start charging uh per month again, and I reworked the tears and UM and then I got like around seven hundred patrons, and I think people were feeling, you know, like they wanted to help out. They knew musicians were in a tight spot. So so I got more significantly more than I had the first time around, and I expanded it all the way up to a thousand dollar level UM. And so you'd asked, what the

what you get? I think at like a five dollar level, I send you a signed set list from a show of your choice, or UM, you can get a v I P meet and greet at a show. Um, at the hundred dollar level, I'll do a cameo, I'll sing you know, a personalized song for you or something, all the way up to a thousand, which after a year, i'll do a I'll do a concert at your house like a you know, acoustic show or um, I'll send people guitars and signed lyrics and and uh, all my

vinyl and basically anything I can think of. I just try and make it worth people's while to to support me. So if you've done any live shows, of course, the pandemic has continued, and how many people will pay a thousand dollars on long Well, I currently have two people who who do that, and UM, I'm very grateful for them. So if you've done the live shows yet, yeah, I did one. I did one of them. What was that experience? Like?

I was cool? It's um Uh, it's just a very generous guy who, um, who loves music and is financially in a position to to support stuff that he loves. So it's um, he supports me through through Patreon and then every single live stream I would do, he would support me through that and and so uh and you know sometimes it's uh, I spent a long time kind of being too close to my fans and then sometimes you know, keep really keeping a distance because it it

didn't feel um, I was just trying to establish some boundaries. Um. And but Patreon has has been good for me and that um uh. You know, the people that are on there or in my experience of been solid folks who just want to support something that they appreciate, and so I keep the guidelines. There. You have the two people paying a thousand dollars. You know, you mentioned your insecurities past. You know, if you put up a date and you go to a club that's an established business, you play,

you get paid, assuming people come. When someone sends you a thousand dollars a month, do you have any guilt? But you just say, this is a business. Obviously they can afford it, and I'm giving something back. It's transactions. Yeah, If I have any guilt, it's maybe maybe sometimes I just feel like I'm not doing enough, But I also have to realize that I do. I have a lot going on in my life and uh, and if they're not happy, they can, you know, they can let me know,

and I try to. I try to reach out and stay in contact and just make sure folks are doing doing well. Um, I lucked out and I found a woman to help me out with this stuff. Before I had a manager. Um finding my last manager and and help me keep it all together. They're organized, Otherwise I'd be lost, um fulfilling all this stuff. So UM, No, I don't feel guilty. It's ah. Um. I do a thing, they appreciate it and and they support me, and I

appreciate them for that. So the people, let's you know, the steady three people on Patreon, that's the result of them being so close to you online and limited in numbers supposed to a big like a big act. Do you actually know them and interact with them? Uh? Some of them? I mean, and I know a few of them just because they're friends, are supported and then I know a few of them, Um, through meet and greets and stuff. They'll come to the show and you start

to recognize names. You know, there's some people who are active. There's a lot of people who sign up and I think don't ever read my emails because they just want to support me. They don't actually want to listen to everything I have to say. Um. And I know that to be true because I support a lot of people on Patreon and and I. You know, there's a certain percentage that I just delete because I don't have the time to to go through it all. But um, um,

and that's fine. I appreciate them just wanting to support it. Okay, So how many people do you support on Patreon? I currently have six people that I, uh support and with those big names that the average person recognizes or they're

more personal friends. Yeah, I'm not sure who. I mean, what one is Amanda Palmer, who's the biggest act on there, and and I And that's more educational for me, um, just trying to study, you know, how she got to where she's at and and um, and how she engages with her audience, which is I don't know how many

thousands of people, but it's it's pretty impressive. Uh. And then the other ones Joe Pug who's a great songwriter and has a great podcast called The Working Songwriter, Will kimbro It's a great fantastic musician, guitar player places and the Harris and Binding crowd a bunch of people. Um. And then Travis Lynnville who is also in my band sometimes but he's a fantastic singer songwriter and um so maybe not a lot of household names, but if you're

in the music business, names folks might know. Okay, So let's go to the live show. So you start these live shows, You've done sixty during the pandemic. Let's start with the beginning, because I'm sure there's an arc to you know, you put the word out. How many people show up and they're free I assume correct, But you're encouraged to tip. So how do you sell the tips? Into what degree does that work? You generate tips? At first,

I didn't try and sell it at all. I just put it up there and people were again, everybody just really wanted to help out, and that was amazing and overwhelming. Really just it felt like all of the work that I had done in the past twenty years to try and be you know, to not only make the art and do a good job, but but just try and be decent and and somewhat connected with my fans. Uh it felt like it was I was, you know, reaping

the rewards of that and and that harvest. Um uh So initially people just gave very generously and um but again I just thought the bottom was gonna gonna fall out at some point, So, UM, I started finding ways to encourage folks. Um, it's like I said, the postcard I would I would, just to be clear, that's virtual

or physical postcards. These are physical postcards. So every week I would design a postcard through Vista print, print off two fifty or five hundred of them, um, and it would be just you know, my wife would take a picture of me in the living room, right, take a picture of my dog, or or just just some of them were funny something, you know, someones Matthew McConaughey's body with my face on it. Um, you know, just whatever I could do to um to change it up. And

and so I'll give that out. And then I how did you get everybody's addressed? And who actually addressed the envelopes? Was at all computerized? No? It was, Um, I got the addresses on PayPal. If you tip using PayPal, your are address automatically shows up and on Venmo. I just I made a point of letting people know if you use Vinmo and you want a postcard, type your address in the comments and I'm after you tip. So, just just to be very clear, if someone were to tip

you via PayPal, you have instant access to their address. Yeah, okay, so you have all those addressed. Now you're telling me about addressing the postcard. Yeah, so then I would I would my show the last two hours, but it would take all week because I would I would, you know, find a postcard, do the show, get it all set up, and uh and again this is on my laptop or my iPad. It's not high quality tech at this point. And uh. Then I would go through and and address everyone,

and I would try and write them. You know, I look back now, and it was like I was. I was trying really hard to let him know I cared. So I would write a paragraph of thank you, thank you, but it took it would take weeks and and and there were times uhum where there's a lot going on and would back up. So, um, I told you that I um uh found this uh woman, there's a there's

a manager here in town. I'm Tracy Thomas um. And Tracy had hired a woman to work for right as the pandemic hit, and so she moved here and all of a sudden didn't have work much work to do, and so Tracy let me hire let's let's just go back where is here. Where are you now? I'm sorry, Nashville. I'm in Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah, so she hired this person and uh so then let me um higher as well.

And so then things really got a lot better because because um she would address all the stuff and and moderate the shows and let people know what was what Okay, So generally speaking, how many people would come to a show, and how much money could you make in tips my first show, there's probably people, maybe two thousand. It was. It was it started off really well, and I was

probably averaging a show something like that. Um. And then I started doing the postcards and then uh, and that went on for a while, and I think I've maybe got as high as for grand or something, um, which was incredible. I mean against sitting here at my computer and I was having dinner at my own table by eight pm, uh, you know, and and just watching money come in. UM. And so the thing that really made a shift was or give it a boost was I

started including the set list. I would hand draw a set list and print copies off and sign it and I said, if you, if you contribute thirty dollars and more, I will I'll send you this as well. And then so then people started contributing in greater amounts and um uh and then I do lyrics each week I do lyrics. So I started trying to get a package of nice things to make it worth your while and uh and it just increased and grew, and we gave a lot of money a charity. Um uh. So every week we

would connect with the charity. My son's is a magician, among other things, and he started sending them videos of himself doing magic, and that became part of the show. My wife would comes thing with us, um um, the dogs would be here, and it just became very personal. And all these people felt like they were in our house and they knew my family and they knew what

I uh did. And then, like I said, I started taking requests and and just people would come and tell me their stories of loss or of struggle or of joy or how they met at my show and got married or how their father loved me. And it passed away and and it just was it felt like this place for people to come and connect. And the more that happens, the money went up. And um, I mean by the end, if I went back and average that it probably came out to four or five grand the

show on average. Wow, that's great. And since you did sixty five, did you consistently get the same number of viewers? No? It uh, it fluctuated a bit, um and sometime around after I've been at it about a year, things were starting to drop off, and finally I put it away for a while because I didn't want to be the

last one at the party. It was it was uh, consistently around seven or eight hundred, and then it got it was like five hundred, six hundred, and then by the end it was starting to get to round three or four hundred and and um, which is still incredible, But live work was starting to come back as well, and so I thought, um, it might be time to get out there and start tourning in. But I see you did one with your wife on Valentine's today. Yeah,

what was the motivation there? Into what degreer? Are you still doing these live streams? I've done two this year. I did one on my birthday. Um. I got COVID on New Year's Day and I was supposed to go to Colorado for a festival and I couldn't, so I, um, I just thought I'll celebrate here at my house and that ended up being my best one ever. So I got paid more for that than I would have to fly to Colorado and do the festival. So it's it's been a real eye opening, kind of game changing thing.

And the Valentine's Day one, Um, we just hadn't done a show in a while, and we we do a lot of songs together and and and I've got a lot of love songs and and uh, and we have fun doing it. So we we just thought why not. We're here. I'm not working much right now on the road. Okay, So you said when we started to discuss all this that having had this experience, your eyes were opened and

you've reevaluated a little bit going forward. So do you think you'll just go back into your ole routine primarily working on the road, or will be different now? Well, I'm trying, like a lot of people, I think, to figure out what lesson I've learned here and then to apply it and not just fall back into what I

was doing, because what I was doing wasn't ultimately fulfilling me. Um, And so I'm trying to find a balance, Like I still enjoy performing for people, and and sometimes I enjoy the travel and and um uh, but the grind of it, that being away from home. You know, I have a home I like, and and and um I live in a town and I enjoy and and uh uh. It's it's hard. It's harder and harder as I get older to to just go out there and you know, stay at the holiday and express with a bunch of guys,

no matter how much I like them. And so I'm just trying to find a balance. And and that's that's a bunch of things. That's maybe a little less touring, but but I still enjoy getting out there, but mixing in live streams, making songwriting and publishing and recording a bigger part of my income and and work well work and then hopefully income. Um And I'm just more interested in in the working on my craft and being an

artist than I am being a road dog. And um that that feels like a more balanced life for me right now. And that's what I'm looking for. Okay. Prior to the pandemic, how many days a year were you doing? Well? My early days, I I would do over two hundred annually. Um. And in the last five years, it was you know, it was down to probably a hundred or so. Okay, let's go back to the beginning. Where did you grow up?

I was born in Houston, Texas in nineteen seventy six, and I grew up about twenty miles north in a suburb planning community called the Woodlands, Texas. And what was that like being in that planning community. Well, when I moved there, there was twelve people. I think now there's a hundred and twenty thousand, So it was it was just a pine forest at first. And he literally watched it get built out and the neighborhoods get built out, and the schools get bigger, and it was great in

a lot of ways. Um, but it was also, you know, mostly white, conservative spot. And and you know, there was there was a lot of golf courses in golf course crossings. And as a teenager, I mean, like a lot of people, you feel sort of constricted by your hometown. And and I was into Carolac and Dylan and Willie Nelson and and and so I was like, I don't know where those guys live, but it's it's clearly not here. So I had a really strong desire to to go find

that out. And so I spent a lot of my years just really excited or anxious to to to go travel and and uh get a little more life experience. Okay, So what did your parents do for a living? My parents were both attorneys. And how many kids in the family. Uh, there's two. I'm the oldest. I have a brother's nine years younger than I am, who's also an attorney. And how good were you in school? And were you popular

not popular? What kind of kids were you? I was somebody who wanted to be popular and wasn't, which is being unpopular spine if you're okay with it, and I wasn't. I struggled. Uh. Um, so I guess I was on the cusp. I I played sports, not not great, but enough to to be around on the team for as long as I could. Um. Uh. I didn't date until my senior year in high school. And I got my first kiss when I was eighteen. Um and UM, I don't know. Just struggled to find my identity and who

I was. UM. And I got into theater, which became a really important thing for me that that opened me up to a lot of different Uh. You know, I went from being in a locker room with fifty guys talking about a certain same thing to being in a room with with a much more diverse and uh interesting to me crowd. And how well did you do in school? I started off okay, I barely, I barely got out and I greet I went to college and graduated last in my class in college. So I ended up being

about as bad as well. Let's go a little bit slower. So you're in school, when do you get infected by music? And when do you pick up an instrument? And to what degree your parents push you or to what degree is that just spontaneous generation from your friends? Yeah? I know my parents didn't push me at all. Um and uh, I I just grew up listening to country music. I knew that was Some of my earliest memories are listening to the Blue Eyes Crying in the rain in the

back seat of the car. And and um, so I loved country, I loved fifties rock and roll, sixties rock and roll, and a real I had a couple of moments that I absolutely remember that were life changing for me. Uh. One was we would we would occasionally attend the Unitarian Church. My parents weren't big churchgoers, but we would occasionally go

to the Interian church, and they weren't known for their choir. Uh, So rather than have a choir, they would have acts come by and one day it would be somebody reading Dante's Inferno. And one day it was a folk trio and they came in and sang Dylan songs. And I was fourteen and they sang A hard rain is Gonna fall blowing in the wind. And I went home that

day and I told my parents don't wanted guitar. Um. You know, like probably thousands of other people who discovered Dylan, and uh, because it was I knew I loved music, but I didn't know that something about that, the power. It just opened me up to the power of song. Um and changed my life. So we're the type of person playing in your bedroom or seeking other out, other people out to play. Did you play live when you were in high school? What was going on there? Yeah?

I did not play live when I was in high school. Um. I played in my bedroom mostly, and then you know, with my friends around at parties and stuff. You know, the one thing I had going I couldn't really sing. I didn't think, and I barely new guitar. But I

could remember all the lyrics to all the songs. And there are there are all these guys who could play Stairway to Heaven our love song on the guitar, but that's all they could do, and nobody, you know, at a party, people want to be a part of the don't want just sit there and watch you play the same guitar nerds stuff over and over. So that was my secret weapon was I can see you every country song that you want to hear, and so that's kind

of what I did. Um, but it was just it was just for fun of people's houses or you know, sitting around drinking beer. Okay, so you talked about where you grew up being conservative, but if your parents were going to the Unitarian Church, I don't think there's a conservative goes to the Unitarian. So that would seem to indicate that your parents themselves were liberal. Yeah, yeah, that's

that's safe to say. Okay, So you graduate from high school and you go to college, where and what your experience? What do you do before you graduate? Last I went to college, I was looking for a small liberal arts school, uh that didn't have a Greek then. Um, that was that was my criteria and I ended up going to Hendricks College in Conway, Arkansas. UM claim to fame being that Roger wenton, Bill's brother went there for a year, and Mary Steam Virgin went there for a year. Um

both of them left for different reasons. Uh and um uh. So I went there. I didn't know, you know, it was just sort of expected, you're gonna go to college. Just just one stop for a second. Yeah, he's is your middle name? We always haze. When you started to play music, you were Haz. Yeah, No, I was. My

name is Joshua Hayes Carl. And in high school I was josh And I never liked that name and I never liked who I was in a way are Every year I would come back to school saying, this is the year that I'm gonna be cool and I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna be different somehow. And then I realized is you can't reset these people who have known you in their whole lives. And so that never worked out like I hoped it would. And then with college, I had this opportunity to to really reset, and so I went.

I told people my name was Hayes. Um, my dad's Lloyd Hayes Carl the third, so it's a family name and I didn't feel like that big of a a thing, um, and I I just took that chance to start fresh. So how many people were going to the college, and what was your experience in college? And it was hundred folks, it was. It was a very small liberal arts school, and um, my experience was that I was a terrible student who didn't know how to manage this time, and

it made college not great. There was I remember my first day there was this British politics professor and he gave me some advice that I wish I had listened to. He said, he said, I was drunk every day in college and I got a four point oh. And the way I did it was I came straight home and I did my work and then I went out and I had a hell of a time and I flipped that and to poor results. You know, I just put off everything until last minute and tried to have a

hell of a time. But it's hard to relax and enjoy yourself when you know you've got an exam that you're not prepared for. So it was I don't know, it was a great experience, and I probably found myself in college, but I I regret not being as present for it and and uh not being a better student. You obviously weren't focusing on academics, were you, you know, playing music where you're hanging with the girls, You're getting drunk.

What was going on? Yeah, all the above, Um, uh, it was it was, Um, I try to take advantage of all that. Um and uh, you know, being away from home. I failed health my first semester because you know, I just it was the classes at eight in the morning,

and I just wouldn't no intention I'm going that early. Um. Yeah, I just tried to make friends and and uh and kind of find my new identity and and I kept playing music and started to write some songs and earnest and and um figure out how I could play them perfect folks. Okay, so what point does this trip start to become You want to be a professional musician somewhere

somewhere in college? I mean there. I live in a dry county, so there was nowhere to play music, um, except for these kind of coffeehouse things that we would do, these little shows. Uh. But I I think I had known for a long time it's what I wanted to do another idea that I could, that I could that there was you know, I thought you either have to

be on MTV. UM. I didn't know how. I didn't know how you go about being a singer songwriter, but I knew that I loved it and I had a passion for it and that I would always regret if I didn't try to do it. So I just kind of floated through college with the idea that I was going to get out and then go try it somewhere. Okay, a couple of questions for those of us who grew

up on the coasts. You know, though Bill Clinton was from Arkansas, since you've traveled the country, if not the world at this point and seeing everything is Arkansas state of mind like everywhere else are completely different. Uh, I

think it's uh. I remember coming in, you know, I always used to say Texas is the one place, like the place where people are the most proud of themselves of anywhere in the world, regardless of you know, they haven't necessarily done anything to earn it, but there's just this pride and and being from Texas and and uh I remember getting to Arkansas and kind of wagging around I'm meeting some folks from Texas, and hey, we're we're Texans, and I thought we were connecting and and they stopped

me real quickly said, we don't do that around here. And and I realized. I started to realize, not only is it obnoxious, but uh, um, you know, our Kansans had a lot of pride about where they were from. And uh and and just like I found that everywhere in the country has something to offer and um uh you know most folks appreciate that and and and um. So so okay, so you graduate from college, you're going

to be a singer songwriter. What are your parents the attorneys to have to say to what degree did they support you? And what are your initial moves? Well, they supported me by uh, just emotionally encouraging me. Like I got very lucky in that. You know, they never they were not the type of folks who were super concerned or at least outwardly with you know, how are you going to make a living? They just let me do what I wanted to do, and so that that was

a blessing. So I got out of college, I went in detasseled corn in Iowa for the summer um with some friends uh. And then moved down to Crystal Beach, Texas. UM on the ball of a peninsula, which is this very remote beach. It used to be the cheapest beach in America. It probably still is. And um and so uh, I'm I started hanging out in bars down there and um with the idea that I was just gonna live by the water and write songs. And uh that's how

I got to start. But my parents, I remember telling him I wanted to be a singer songwriter and my mom said, can you sing? Uh? You know, it was very surprising to them. Um. And she also said, you know, I grew up in this planning community and and I said, I want to be a country singer. And she said, well, you can't be a country singer, like what are you gonna sing about? How they ran out of towels at the country club and uh, you know, so she told me I had to be a folk singer, um sitting

down and play. But um. Anyway, so they were they were supportive, and they're good natured about it. And and I think they were probably very skeptical that anything was gonna happen, but they gave me room to to find out what I wanted to do. And to what degree did they financially support you? And while you were down there at the beach plane in bars, what are you

living on? Uh, let's see, financially supporting? Well, the they didn't give me money but uh um um, but they were there if I needed them, which you know is reassuring. And I didn't need them. Um. I was fortunate to get by. I lived pretty cheaply and and um uh and I had jobs. I was doing landscaping or or uh. I was a bartending and waiting tables and it was a medical test patients and I man did anything I could to scrape together some money and then I would Uh.

There was a bar used to hang out at uh called Bob's Sports Bar and world famous grill, and uh. I went up to the owner one day and I said, can I set up in the corner and uh play music? You don't have to pay me, I just you know, I'll put a tip jar out and he said sure. So I got a four hour gig and uh that

started working for me. I started getting other shows up and down to this remote beach, planned for two people, ten people or whatever, and um um but I started making fifty bucks a night, you know, a hundred bucks a night, um on a good night. And and back then, I mean I didn't have a bank account. It's all cash, so you know, I wouldn't paying taxes and and and uh, I wasn't making much money, but I didn't have much to spend it on. And we're playing covers or originals.

It was all covers. So that's where my my memory of lyrics came in handy because I could whether I knew the song or not. Uh, musically, I mean I could. I usually figured out with a capeo and my limited knowledge of chords. Um, but I could always remember the lyrics. And so people would come in and they would request Jimmy Buffett or Paul Simon or Steve Miller or John Prine or Chris Christopperson or Willie Nelson, whatever it was I could. I could usually pull something out that would

satisfy them. Okay, so what's the next step? How do you start writing songs? And how do you move up the ladder? So to speak? So I really got lucky in I mean I was writing songs through college and then and then continue to at the beach, and I was waiting tables in Galveston Island, which is uh, you

take a ferry across the bay to the island. And and one night after work, I was ah going out with some co workers to a bar and the bar was closed, and so I'm walking back to my car and I hear music coming down an alley and I take a left down this alley with another one of those moments that completely changed the course of my life. Um, and I followed the music and walk into this bar and there's somebody on stage playing guitar and singing. And there's a shrine to Towns van Zant on one wall

and another shrine to Lightning Hopkins on another wall. And it's a place called the Old Quarter Acoustic Cafe. And the original Old Quarter was in Houston and it was a bar um that Town's VanZant recorded an iconic live record at. And this offshoot was owned by his former bass player again named Rex Bell. And uh, it was an open mic night. So I asked the rec like, can you can I get up there? And he said sure.

So when out grabbed my car, my to my car and got my guitar, came back in and got on stage, played a loud love It song and that became my second home. UM. I started at tending bar there, hanging out doing open mics and um and so I've been playing covers six nights a week down on the Peninsula, but this was a place where I could play my

own songs and and Rex started letting me open for people. UM. And there was a touring circuit, which I didn't know was a thing, and all these singer songwriters, uh Willis, Allen Ramsey and Steve Fromholtz and Shake Russell and Dana Cooper and sisters Morales and Ray Wiley Hubbard and all these folks will come through and they had careers like they did this for a living, but playing their own music, and people would buy ticket stuff to see it, which was just uh incredible to me. And I started to

get into open for the open for these people. UM and a few of them started taking me on the road two open shows in Houston or San Antonio or Dallas or Austin. And so that's when things really started kicking into gear. Was was other musicians kind of showing me the ropes and taking me out, get me started. And how do you end up making a record. Well, one of those musicians was Lisa Morales. She had a band called Sisters Morales, and UH, I had some songs together and and I was going to just make a

a record. I had no idea how I was going to do in somebody's garage probably and it would have

been a disaster and I probably wouldn't be here today. UM. But Lisa stepped in and offered to produce the record, and I said yes, And so we went to Willie Nelson's studio and put Analysis, Texas, and she got a great crew of players and we made a made a record, and UM, I sent it to a guy named Brad Turcott who had a upstart label called UH Compadre Records, and he didn't he had done a couple of compilations, but he didn't have any actual acts artists, and UM I sent it to him and he he signed me

to a licensing deal. So UM, another really good stroke of luck, because I had no idea how to get a record out there, and so all of a sudden, now I had a record that was professionally produced, and I had a record label UM that didn't have any other artists but UM, and the guy was younger than Brad was probably younger than I was. I think he was twenty three and he was in law school and

running a record label. Um but uh, but he did a great job of it, and and it showed me here's what a publicist is, here's uh, here's your first tour. He got me an agent and and um uh, here's a radio promoter and all these things that I had no idea about any of this. I was just you know, a cover singer in a bar and then but you know who was writing songs on the side. So, um, this really opened up my world. Okay, so you paid for all that yourself or he paid. I paid for

the record. I took out a loan, a line of credit. So I made the record and then I licensed it to him, and then he paid for everything after that. So we had a seven year licensing deal and which was also he paid for the publicity, etcetera. Yeah. Yeah, So what was the ultimate reception of that record? We sold fifty six copies the first week. I still remember that number. Um, and uh, you know, it didn't do

a ton, but it got me all those elements. The radio and the publicity, got me on the radar a little bit, got me out of state touring UM and helped me start to build up a little bit of an audience around Texas. UM. UM, there were certain clubs where I could go and make money now doing my own songs, which before that had not been a reality. So what's the next step with the next album. Well, I met Mike Crowley, who I told you about UM

and be my first manager. I Well, I went and made a second record, paid for the second record on my own as well, UM, and took it to Brad and asked if you wanted to to put it out and he passed. And so I was a free agent and I was looking around it at different labels that there were a couple of labels who were offering me deals. But I grew up reading all the books about how musicians get screwed and how you can sell a million records and end up owing your label money and all

these kind of things. Uh. And I always was determined, like I never thought I would actually have a shot. But I told myself, if I do have a shot, I'm gonna sink or swim on my own. Like I didn't want to be dependent on somebody else too too, or let them have control of my career or be able to sink my career. If I wasn't gonna succeed, it was gonna because I wasn't very good, or because I didn't work hard enough, not because somebody else put me on the shelf or didn't promote in the way

that you know need to be done. So I met up with Mike Crowley and we formed our own label, and I put out my second records called Little Rock, and it got on the radio. There's a radio station in Dallas called h y I, and one of the songs on there became kind of a hit, uh for you know, a regional hit, and overnight my crowds went from twenty people too. And it was the power of the radio. H was in full effect. And we ended up selling copies of that record, um, which for you know,

independent artists run as the label was, was a success. Okay, how did it get on the radio if you were an independent artist? Oh? We hired a radio promoter, same deal, just kind of Americana radio promoter. And okay, so this record forts quite a lot as an independent. Then how do you make a deal with Lost Highway? A woman named Kim Boie did an r for Lost Highway, and

she she came out to his show. I don't remember where when, but I think it was in Nashville, and and we met and and at some point she just reached out and said that they were interested in and signing me. And I remember looking at the roster and seeing Willie Nelson and uh Elvis Costello and Ryan Adams and Lucinda Williams and Van Morrison. It was this fantastic roster um and a part of me thought, this is

a no brainer. But then there was the other part of me that had just created a successful record label, I mean, you know, relatively successful record label. And I always remember this quote from John Prine. He's he said with when he started Old Boy Records. He said, I sell a third of the records that I used to sell, and I make three times the money. And that always stuck with me. And I was hesitant to let go

of this thing and be with somebody else. But the roster was incredible, and the people that worked for the company, we're all incredible, and so I just took a leap of faith and and I thought this, this is I think, a really great opportunity, and they'll either drop me after a couple of records and hopefully my career will be bigger and I can go back to doing on my own, or it will be a success and everybody will be happy,

kind of a mix of both. Actually, uh Um. I put out my the first record with him is called Trouble in Mind and its I don't know what the numbers are now, it's probably it's over a hundred thousand copies and that's my most successful record, um to date, and and uh it did pretty well. And then I put out a second one called Came a Yo Yo, and it probably did eighty or ninety um and it was fine. I've I've I've since recouped, which my wife tells me is unusual to recoup from a major label.

Um uh. But the things started slowing down there and I uh uh, they weren't signing new acts, and I think Luke Lewis was um Um, who had been really supportive, was was moving on and and so they had the rights to another record. But he told me it's like, if you want to get out of here, you can, and and uh you probably it might be a good idea because uh, it just seemed like things weren't going to be there very long. So uh so I jumped out and that was the end of it. But it

was a really really positive experience. They never asked me do anything I didn't want to do, and they were They spent a bunch of money promoting my stuff and and and raised my visibility to a point that it would not have gotten to without him. Okay, you meeting of the record independently, and then you made another one. The last one was for Dual Tone. How did you

decide to go with the company again? Well, I did, Uh yeah, I did a record with thirty Tigers UM called Lovers and Levers, and then UM Mike and I parted ways and I worked with another manager named Griff Morris, and uh, my career was kind of it had taken a dip. You know, It's been five years in between records, and I wasn't touring as much, and my the that Lovers and Levers record was a pretty somber affair. I

love it. I made it with Joe Henry and I'm really proud of that record, but it was very different than what I put up before. And I think a lot of my fans between the laps or between the time that had had had happened between records and the tone of that record, A lot of people who had come out to drink and shout and dance and fight and make out and holler and sing along, it wasn't really the thing for them, and so I lost a

lot of fans. And uh so I think, uh, the idea of when I was working with Griff was, we need we need some energy here, we need to kick start things again, and so trying to build up a team with a good record, label, publisher, things like that became the priority. And and so we met with dualtone and I really liked what they had to say and ended up working together. Okay, so at this late date, you've been in the game twenty years, do you feel

you're inside or outside? I mean, the business is completely change starting the turn of the century, and you know there are these acts that you know, dominate Spotify, and then there are all these acts that either used to have success or independent from the start. Who were about me? Is there a scene or you just one guy who's grinding it out? Is there a scene? You know? Early

on it was it was there was a scene in Texas. Uh, just an incredible audience down there that just music is part of the culture and life in a way like unlike I've seen anywhere else. Um And so that that was a big boost for me. And then the Americana scene really if if there, I mean, I don't even know what the scene is, but the UM I met a lot of kind of like minded artists and and everything from Canadian songwriters like fred Eagle Smith or Cory Blonde to um uh you know folks in the States

Shovels and Rope or Jason Nesbo or um. You know, there were there were there were people that I toured with and all ninety seven's and just different bands that that uh I connected with and and um I felt it was similar to what I was trying to do. They were songwriters who had a roots sensibility of country and rock, and so that all kind of fell into

the umbrella of Americana. I guess, well, what would you say the state of Americana is today, because certainly it was a new thing, you know, at the turn of the century, and everybody's talking about it and now everyone thinks it's is genre. But other than Jason is Bill, you don't hear that much about the act and I'm not talking that's not happening, but it doesn't float to the general as we say mainstream media. Yeah, I think

the state is pretty good. I mean, first of all, I have no idea, like, no one has ever come up with a definition of Americana that I can remember or feel like, you know, it makes any sense. So it's a pretty catch all thing. But you know, lately I feel like whether it's Jason or the Turnpike, Troubadours or um Sturgill Simpson or um, I don't know, there's there's a long list of folks that are m Yeah, I don't know if they would label themselves as any

of these things. But American or or the the the off the beaten path, non mainstream music world certainly embraced

them and call them their own. And and those people are doing big business and and it may not be something that uh, I mean, I guess all relative, but um, you know, people are playing arenas and and and um, selling out stuff left and right, and and uh it may not be mains like totally mainstream popular culture, but there is absolutely an audience out there, uh, in the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands for or millions for some of these folks, and and uh and yeah,

Brandy Carlisle would be one of those people. And again like where I don't want to label people that they may not want to be labeled with that, but but these are like non traditional A lot of these people are doing this without major labels. A lot of them are doing it um independently and and uh just completely in their own style. So we are you in that hierarchy?

And what do you want? I mean back in the major label era, there are all these songwriters like you mentioned, you know Towns, Vian Sand and other people, uh who had were icons in Texas, but once you got outside the borders of Texas, you have to be paying attention to know who they are. Are you someone and says well this is what I do or I want more? Or are you somewhat depressed because you feel like you missed the target? Where are you at on your career

right now? Yeah, it's trying to figure that out. Um. I'm kind of at a point where I'm trying to do the work the best I can and and sort of accept where the chips fall. And that doesn't mean I'm not working hard. Um Uh, my goal is to to take care of my family and to do work that I'm proud of. Um, I can't worry too much about the numbers or where my careers are comparing its somebody else's career. It's that's uh, that is not a good head space for me, and it's not what makes

me happy. I finally realized, like if if I sold another uh, you know, twenty thousand tickets this year on the road, uh, you know, there would there would be it would be great to be able to afford the buses or or or you know, travel a little better, but the overhead goes up and and like with each stage, UM, I guess what I'm realizing is there's no finish line. There's no oh now now everything is good and they're

never will be. You know. Garth Brooks is you know, he's he's sold more records than Elvis, and he's still trying to figure out, uh like at a certain point, who who can you compete with? And and so I just it sounds try it, I guess, but I'm really interested in doing work that will last, and work that I can be proud of. And um, and I have faith and again come out of the pandemic. It's something

that I know there's an audience out there. It may not be as big as I once had hoped it would be, but I also realized I don't need it to be um hard. I'm a singer songwriter. I don't need to be rocking in front of ten thousand people. I'm actually quite uncomfortable doing that. UM. I like to be able to to connect with my audience and and UM,

for me, that's a more intimate way. So I mean, I can still tear about hoky talk and and rock out, but uh um, at the end of the day of what I think I do best is write songs and connect to people in a in au from the stage in an intimate way. Okay, let's use the classic example Bruce Springsteen. He's been around for a while, different era. Okay, delivers a record and the manager says not done. He

goes right dancing in the dark. Now, that album Born in the USA was more upbeat, certainly Nebraska that came before it, but some of the other work. But you know, across the catalog he had, he had uppers and downers. You ever sit there and say, I've been doing this a long time. I know what the market is. Let me write something that I believe will resonate with the market. Yeah, I don't know how to do that. Just let's go back in chapter. How do you do it? In terms

of songwriting? Well, I used to just be observation and inspiration. And you know, I thought I mentioned Carolac and Dylan. You know, I thought the key to me a songwriters you just take a bunch of pills and drink heavily and and live a wildlife and and every once in a while lightning strikes and you just write it down and and you're just in a channel for it. And then that's it. And you either have that ability or you don't. And um, I mean they're there's there's something

to that, but uh, it's not sustainable. It's not a craft. And um So for years I sort of did did things that way, um, and then it sort of dried up and I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what I was writing about. I didn't know myself. And so these days I'm much more interested in the craft of it and annoying myself and working through something. And um, I'll tell you a quick ancdote if I can't. Uh, well, nothing to do is quick, but I'll try to make

it so. Um. There's a There was a legendary songwriter named Guy Clark, who, when I was twenty four, let me come over to his house and write a song with him. And this is to me. It was an icon and somebody I really looked up to. And he was very deliberate. He had a basement downstairs where he built guitars, and he wrote these songs on graph paper and every letter, every square had a letter in it

for the song. And we worked on something and got it started, and I went home and finished it up, and I sent him a tape or something with it, and he called me up and said, you need to change this to that and this here that there these very minute details, and I remember thinking, uh, this is unnecessary, this is not this, it doesn't matter, um, And it was not at all the way that I wrote. I did not revise and edit and draft and spend time

with it. I tried to catch lightning in a bottle and if it didn't work, there was nothing there, and if it did, that's what it was. Now. I look back at that guy, and it's really trying to beat myself up. But I'm embarrassed by that, um, because now I am I'm not saying I'm a guy Clark's level as a writer, but that is much more high. Right now. I'm intentional and I deliberate, and songs every one, small

sometime will come out in a day. I wrote one today, um, which was nice and rare to finish a song in a day. But these days I'll put weeks and months of time into something to make sure it's right. I can't let it go anymore. I used to just throw it out and go it's good enough, and now there's something that's changed where I can't. That doesn't work for me. It has to be able to stand up and and um. So that's that's the process for me now. Okay, but

let's go back to the real beginning. Do you say, hey, I want to make a record, therefore I'm gonna write songs, or you're writing songs and all of a sudden you realize you have an album, or or do you say I need life, more life experience, I'm gonna wait until I got more to write about. We're gonna work every day and write a song. What's the process? Well, the inspiration was just first of all songwriters, they articulated what I felt, and to me, it was the most magical

thing and the coolest job I could imagine. It was it was it was it was magic, um to be able to articulate the human experience and describe it and and make you feel these things. And so I just I was drawn to it, and I wanted to be able to do that um uh and and in any creative form really, but I have attention issues, So I figured I'll never be a novelist because I can't focus that long. But a song three minutes, maybe I could. Maybe there's hope there. Um. And I just did it

from my own self. Again, I never had any I didn't know how you become a professional anything to do with the music business. So it was it was not my world growing up, It was not my world in college. UM. So I was just doing it because I had a dream for it, passion for it, and and so I just wrote to wrote to write and um. And then

I started getting gigs. Then I really kind of kicked it up a gear because it was I started getting open for people in front of real audiences, and I thought, I gotta have something to say here, um, or I can just play covers or if I want to have any kind of career in my own. Okay, so you wrote a song this morning. Was it because you said, Okay, I'm gonna write a song, I went to my room and worked on it, or you all of a sudden had an inspiration? Do you do this every day? Try

to write a song? Well, I try to put some time in every day. I don't succeed, um usually, but you know today I had a co write. Uh. Guy named Driver Williams plays guitar with Eric Church. He has a uh he lives here in town. And and um, we've had pretty successful run the last year or two of writing songs. So um we got together and and uh I wrote one that I quite like. So it was it was a prearranged deal. To what degree do you like working with others supposed to doing it alone? Well,

it's I used to write everything by myself. And then I had a couple uh folks like Guy Clark and right Wiley Hubbard who who who showed me about co writing and um uh and then I started relying on it more and more as I sort of lost my own inspiration, I started relying on other people for theirs, and then I became kind of an editor of songs rather than a creator of songs. And uh now it's kind of come to where I I feel like I

can write on my own. I'm doing a lot more of that these days, UM, but also enjoying writing with other people. They're times where it's a drag, but there's a there's a real magic that happens when you you know, you get into a flow and you each have a kind of role that you're playing. And sometimes I'm just helping them edit, and sometimes they're helping they're just editing me, and and or sometimes it's completely even, but it's it's it's uh, that chemistry when it works is really cool.

And and I end up both songs that I never would have come up with my own, and and and can use other people's talents. And I learned a lot too from that. UM. You know, there's no songwriting school. I didn't go to one. UM, So to to get to sit with with really creative, talented people and watch their process, always learn something. And what happens to these songs? Are they for you or you try to get them covered?

They used to all be for me, um, because I was the most important thing to me was being the artist and and now I'm I'm just as happy for other people to go out and do the work and make the money so for me. So um, it's a bit of both. I'm always writing for myself, but uh, I mean that's always in my mind. Um. But in the last couple of years, I've really uh leaned into just writing to write and and doing these co writes

and living here. I moved to Nashville. Was in Austin for twelve years, and I've been in Nashville for a few years now, and and um there's you know, the whole uh ecosystem and the music industry's country music is here, and and um, so you can write a song and it can be and somebody's you know, some of you me listening to it that day, and and it can be get cut that week, and which is it doesn't happen often to me, but but the possibility is there.

And so that that's that's a fun muscle I've been working out lately, is is just to write the best song I can and not think about, uh, you know, can I do it? And it's something too about my my stuff. I relied on my personality and my delivery to get a song across and rather than crafting the song to be something that anybody could sing. And so that's that's something that's important to me too, is I want to write a song and not have to be able to wink at the audience or deliver it a

certain way. I want to write it towards bulletproof, so anybody can pick it up and sing it and people can go, that's a hell of a song. It doesn't have to be my unique delivery, uh to to to land it that that it could be a standard. Everything could give it up. No, do you have the same motivation you have now then you did at the beginning? Uh? Yeah, yeah, in a way. I mean, I'm I'm probably a little

more sorted and I don't have the same fire. I mean, when you're in your twenties and you're just trying to make a mark and and do something and find yourself, that was that was an energy that I will never be able to recap. Sure, But uh but yeah, I'm I have a lot of work to do and a lot of things that I'm excited about still, and I've i am still in love with the act of creating a song, where they're creating something out of nothing. So you have a son. How many times have you been married?

And now you're married to Alison? Give me the run there. I had my son in two thousand three. His name is Eli. Uh and um, I'm married. I've been married twice. So my first wife is Eli's mom and we were married for nine years I think, um, and we got divorced h seven years ago. And uh Alison and I got married, uh three and a half, it'll be three years in May. Where's your son today? My son is in Austin. Uh. Uh he's just graduated high school and in his uh about to go to college. So how

did you meet Allison? How do you end up marrying it? She has an autistic son with her previous husband, Steve Earle, And what how often is the child with you? And how does that affect your everyday life? I met Allison in two thousand three, I think, uh. We had some mutual friends. I was just starting to come to town and she um actually sang on my second record in two thousand four and uh and we were friendly um for years, but I didn't see much of her and UM,

and we just I invited her to a show. I was up in New York, um and invited her to a show and and she couldn't make the show, but we met up for uh a drink and and UM you know, much to our surprise, uh connected UM and yes, she has a son named John Henry who UM is eleven and is level three autism. He's nonverbal and UM her she just released her second book, which is titled A Dreamy Talks to Me and it's uh it's about

about John Henry in life with him and UM. Right now, John Henry is in New York with his dad UM for the school year, and then he spends the summers with us and Alison. Uh. When John hery was diagnosed, sort of quit touring so that she could be there full time with him and and uh Steve UM continue to tour R and um. Uh they split up shortly

after the diagnosis and so now we we split time essentially. UM. And is she going back on the road with the status of her career, She's gonna go out her her sister's uh wonderful artists and Shelby Lynn and UM they're gonna go and do a few dates in April, Um, just a week, I think. Um, but that's that's it. She's trying to slow down. You know, she's put she's put out eleven records and two books, and um, is

is um trying to to slow down? UM. I don't know how much luck she's having with it, but UM, so there won't be a lot of touring this year, but they do have some dates, which the two of them together is really something special. So what is it you're trying to say in your songs? What is it you want to get across that would make it that someone needs to listen to your music? Well, I don't.

I don't look at it that way anymore. I mean, when I was younger, it was what I was trying to say, was I was trying to put words to whatever I was feeling. Um, And I'm not sure, UM, I'm not sure how important that was. You know, felt incredibly important. But uh, these days I don't. I UM, I sit down with a song and try to or an idea and try to find what it has to tell me and then flesh it out and coax it in and into the uh, polished it as best I

can to to where it says something. So uh, you know, today we wrote a song about addiction, about somebody who dies and and the person that's left behind, how angry they are, and and all the emotions, the sadness and the anger and then ultimately the forgiveness. And that's interesting to me. And I didn't think about it. I wasn't thinking about it two days ago. It wasn't I didn't

think I need to write a song about addiction. But there's a lot of addiction in my life surrounding me these days, and and and um it's been on my mind. And so then it just came up, um in in the in the room, we started writing about it. So I'm interested in finding those ideas and then and then fleshing them out. But I don't walk around thinking I

need to tell the world this or that. Um. I I have some ideas from my own stuff that I'm I feel like I'm scratching the the surface of kind of finding my voice in a in a new way or a point of view. Um, But right now it's it's, uh, I'm not there yet, and and those those things kind of change and take time. So I'm just trying to be patient until I find something I really am passionate about saying. So you talk about going out with your band, that inherently adds costs. So it's just the same guys,

what have they been doing? And you could save a lot of money going out alone. But would that just be a different thing? Well, I do both. Um. I started out solo and UM and this year I'll next month I'll do probably seven shows solo and then I'll go out and do thirty in a row with the band. Uh. Yeah, it's I mean, that's the That's one of the things about doing this is is figuring out how can you how do you best deliver it? First of all, UM, And I'm still not sure if I'm better as solo

artist or with a band or with a sideman. UM. But there are some um career opportunities that that I don't get as a solo artist that I would with a band. So I can go play two nights at Green Hall in Texas and do you know fift people and and um uh you know, I have a really successful weekend at a dance hall. But if I have

the band, but I can't do the same thing solo. UM. But then you know, like you said, A lot of that, A lot of that profit is eaten up by salaries and hotel rooms and per deems and all that stuff. And um, so I'm always trying to trying to find a line of where I can do what I need financially and um, but keep the band. I like having that element. I like being a solo artist, like like going out by myself and playing a listing room, and I like getting the band together and tearing but a

dance hall. It's uh, I enjoy being able to do both. Um. I think I would get bored if I can only do one thing and it's just the same guys each time. Oh it's changed over the years, but right now I've got a pretty uh consistent abandoned career. And what they do to get through the pandemic, well, um, everything from Patreon to teaching online music lessons to um, you know, government assistance too. I helped out in the beginning where I could, Um, one of them became a substitute teacher.

That's uh, you know, everybody's hustling. Okay, So let's say someone is unfamiliar with your work, what are the two songs they should listen to that you think would really depict where you're coming from that they need to hear. Oh boy, Um, Well, I'm gonna go with my most recent record. I've got two songs on there that I think, UH show at least part of the range. And their two songs I'm really proud of I've got the title track is called you Get It All and um, which

is just uh sort of introspective love song. But but I feel like it's got all the elements that that I'm drawn too in songs, the word play and and and a little bit of levity and um uh and a country feel. Um. It's it's I think it's well written, if I do say so myself. And then um, the other one off this record that I think it's it's one of the things I'm most proud of that I've

ever done. Uh is a song I sent to you called help Me Remember, and that uh is just one of my Uh It's just one of the things I'm most proud of. I worked really hard on it with with the Josh Morning Star, UM great songwriter, and and we really brought it home. I think, yeah, I know

what it's about. Could you tell if those people were unfamiliar with what it's about well, help me remembers about dementia, Alzheimer's people struggling with that, and and U and about the having a witness to your life um, which is ah,

sometimes I think about a lot um. So it's uh, it's it's a song written from the perspective of someone suffering dementia and and sort of losing the thread to their own story and asking their spouse to help fill in the blanks about who they were and what their life was, what they were about, what their life was like. So what do you mean about having a witness? Well, I mean I was thinking about the idea of not

remembering who you were. You know, your partner, your friends, your children, those are people who saw you through your life. They knew what you were about. They knew your actions, they knew whether you were where you were good and where you struggled. They knew, um, what you aspired to. And it's heartbreaking to think about losing that self knowledge,

but people do. And so the idea of having a witness to your life is is exactly that somebody who was there for your life and can tell you this is what you were about, this is the kind of person you were. You were. This is the kind of parent you were, it's kind of spouse, it's the kind of citizen. Um that that just really struck me. My grandfather suffered from dementia just a little bit before he passed, and he had too things that happened that really stood

out to me. One I was riding in his pickup truck in Waco, Texas, and he pulled up to the stoplight and he turned around to me and asked me where we were and I had no idea, and that was his hometown. I didn't live there, and I was fourteen, and he looked scared, and you know, this was a drive he had made ten thousand times he and he was lost. And then there was another time. My grandfather was a really loving, sweet man, and there was one day where he was not being either of those things.

And I remember my my dad pulled me aside. He said, don't remember your grandfather this way. Yeah, this is not who he is. And I guess that's what I mean is m My dad was a witness, you know, my grandmother was a witness. And as my grandfather was starting to struggle with knowing who he was and where he was, the idea of having people who did know that and could remind you. Uh. It seemed like a very powerful

one and an important thing to have. Well, Hayes, I think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known. Thanks for being so honest and open. You're a real thinker, and you're giving very insightful the answer. So thanks so much for doing this well. Thank you, Bob. I'm i'm I really appreciate your newsletter and and you give me and I can think about every years. Thank you til next time. This is Bob Left Sense