Ethiopia Habtemariam

have a feeling why that is? I mean, Steve Stout says it's a universal language and it's the only music people can make without instruments, and therefore it spread throughout the world. I think that's a part of it. I also think that hip hop is a part of a culture and a lifestyle. Music and fashion really crossed, you know, the cross section is there, and I think around the world you can see kids dressed the same, they listen to the same kinds of music. And I think hip

hop has infused every area. Um. Yeah, And I think it's a form of expression that just you know, kids relate to. And where do you think it might be going. I just had this conversation on Sunday. Um. I think that people want music with more substance. I think that kids are really emotional. And I was talking to my god daughter about this, who's sixteen, who I don't think

it's really expressive. And she lives in Atlanta, and I talked to her all the time, And when I'm talking to her from l A, she doesn't really open up to me that much. But when I go her social media, I can tell what's going on with her by the lyrics that she's posting. Right, So, kids rely on music to really connect to what they're going through or what they're feeling. And I think that um, they want more substantial music that can represent what they're going through and

what they're feeling. And I think that you know, we're seeing all of us are going through a lot. And do you think that pretends I mean, hip hop is going through varying phase. It was a sound of the inner city that it was literally the sound of the streets we have the riots in Then at the end of the MTV era, it was about boats and babes, etcetera. Uh, do you think it's going to in the era of Ferguson and me too? You think it's going to be

grittier and more honest definitely. But I think look hip hop is they're different forms of hip hop that exists, is just it's just about what's the most popular at the time. I mean, I think we can look at Spotify today, we see how huge Post Malone's record is, and I think you can see that Post is influenced by a lot of different kinds of music and his hooks are very melodic, um, and you can tell that he's also you know, influenced by country music as well,

and he relates to a lot of different kids. UM. But I do think what's gonna come up more is

more substantial lyrics. You look at j Cole's record, which cut through in such a big way, and I wasn't really surprised by it because I think a lot of us were having the conversation around it's not just being one kind of hip hop that represented where the culture was us And I think Jay Cole did the perfect record that really um represented what the commercial sound was from a production standpoint, but also lyrically touched on every

aspect of where the culture is now. Like there's a little bit too much of one representation of the culture where it can kind of feel like it's a little um comedic in some ways and in other ways, you're like kids are doing drugs and they're only talking about certain aspects of you know, money or etcetera. Because they're really just trying to hide what they really feel. They don't know how to express the emotions that they're dealing with. And I think that he really touched on that with

this record, um without without feeling too preachy. But the previous record was kind of a disappointment, right record financially I didn't think so it was pretty Yeah. I know, Jay Cole has been extremely SUCCESSU. I mean, you know, I'm not gonna lie. I'm I'm a big Ja Cole supporter. I signed him when I was at Universal Publishing when he released his second mixtape, The warm Up, before he

you know, put out his first album, etcetera. And he's one of the most authentic, realist artists that's been operating and marching to the beat of his own drum and it's been incredible to see. But he's been successful with every record. Okay, so you're from Hotlanta. Okay, why is Atlanta an epicenter of hip hop music? Urban music? I wouldn't even just say urban music Okay, So I'm from Atlanta. All right, I'm first generation Ethiopian American. My parents are

from Ethiopia, hence the name Ethiopia. Okay, let's go back there. You've been living for almost forty years with the name Ethiopia. Why why am I having years? Okay? Well, I didn't want to go exactly exactly. You know, has that been a good thing or a bad thing? Okay? So, early years, elementary years, I was in Tuskegee, Alabama. My dad had been the dean of the Vest School there since I was a kid. And during the early eighties that's when

you saw all the commercials about the famine in Ethiopia. Right, so you know I'm there. My name is Ethiopia tragic. It was extremely tough for me. So anyone that knows me from Tuskegee, Alabama actually knows me by my middle name, which is haywan Um. And that was because I took it upon myself to change the name while in school, like oh no, I'm not gonna I'm not going through this.

You're gonna know me as haywan so Um. Then we moved to Atlanta the summer before my sixth grade year and go to sixth grade Ralph Bunch Middle School in Southwest Atlanta. Who's in my class a group by the name of Criss Cross, and they weren't discovered yet. They got discovered that year. But one of the members of the group, Christmas the lighter skin one with the braids, was one of my really close friends. And they get discovered and become the biggest group in music at the time,

and it was crazy, you know what I mean. So Criss Cross happens and it's like right in my backyard, which was fascinating. No, I didn't, but I definitely, you know, I was like super proud of of of them, of him, of what was happening in the scene at the time. And that's when I think I got to see firsthand what was happening in the community. So it was like Jermaine Duprie so so deaf. You saw ABC in Dallas Austin start his you know, kind of run, and to me as a kid, it felt like the biggest thing

in the world. I mean, I remembered when Criss Cross was on tour with Michael Jackson. That was crazy, you know what I mean. It was it was let's go back your parents from Etho or from Ethiopia. How did they end up coming to America? My father, UM, came on scholarship to the University of Colorado. UM, then went back to Ethiopia, married my mother. They went to Canada, had my older brother, and then my father went to get his pH d at u C. Berkeley. My mother went to u C. Davis and UM, yeah, so they

came for education. My father was you know, my father didn't really come from much. He was like the one kid out of eight kids to get chosen to go to school. And my mom, on the other hand, came from a very well off family. My grandfather was the first pilot in Ethiopia. UM and um. You know, my dad is ten years older than my mom and um. Yeah, they fell in love and they're still married. They're still So how many kid children in your family? Three? And

where are you in the hierarchy. I'm in the middle. Yeah, but I'm special because I'm the special because I'm the only girl. So we'll talk about that later. So you you moved from Alabama, you moved to Atlanta, and if you go on line, there was a moment where there was a school presentation that changed the course of your history. Right. So, freshman in high school, there's a career planning class that was a prerequisite, right, And you know I loved music.

For me, being this, you know, young kid with the name whatever, I just felt awkward growing up as a lot of people do. Music was how I connected and how I felt like I've related to a lot of other people. Right. So I was always the girl that was like writing down all the lyrics. I was a writer myself. I would journal, et cetera. I loved music. I lived in breathe music. I tried to sing. I sang in talent shows. That didn't really work for me

because I'm toning up, you know that whole thing. But um, freshman year in high school, I'm taking this class, the career planning class. And my teacher asked me what I want to do when you had to pick three different things, and everything was music related. But I only knew about music production or what I would read about in the fanzines. I think I said publicity. Um, And at the time she had a woman that Shaunty DAWs, who was the head of promotions for La Face Records at the time,

come and speak in our class. And this woman was the coolest, most confident, strong black woman I had ever seen. And she was just, you know, fly to me. I grew up loving like TLC and Aaliyah and like the Fuji's and you know, um that was like my thing is. So I'm saying this woman and she works in promotions, I have no idea what it is. So i go up to her at the end of class and I'm like, can I shadow you for a day? And She's like, okay,

if your parents are okay with it. I asked my parents and she let me come shadow her on the day that her assistant was outsick. So I was answering phones, et cetera, right, and and I was good at it. So she said, as you know, I could come up during the summer as long as my parents were okay with them. My parents were like, we need to meet her. And she actually was from my neighborhood. And so she came to my house and met my parents and they gave my blessed, gave gave the blessing and them I

interned that summer. And this was like the heyday of the Face was a full record label. I mean, they had they were with Ariston, but they had an and our department, a production department, and marketing department, the video depart I mean they were a full fledged record label and Buckhead Atlanta and at the time they had Outcast TLC Tony Braxton. These were huge artists. Um that summer I got to go to like the Outcast Southern Play Realistic Cookout. I'll never forget it because I got to

invite my eight friends. Right, I was like the coolest person ever. And my older brother who was a freshman in college at the time, took me and was like the chaperone and we were doing everything from like stuffing bags whatever. But the work we were doing was just it was incredible to be around it. I remember seeing Biggie Smalls there, Buster Rans there, and this was when Puff was about to start building the you know bad Boy.

I remember the Craig the Big Mac tape. It was promoting Craig Mac and Biggie's Malls at the same time. So I was around that as a kid at fourteen. It was it was yeah, it was. It was really incredible, and Outcast to me was, you know, my favorite hip hop group. They were UM produced by a production team called Organized Noise that was also from Southwest Atlanta, who I just had such a high regard for and I

loved their you know, their musical talent and gift. And before I could drive, I would have my father drive me on Sundays by their studio because I knew where it was. I'm like, Daddy, can we drive? You know? But because to me it was amazing to know that the music that was touching the world in my eyes was like happening right out of my neighborhood. So it gave me this sense of hope that I could be

a part of that in some way. We'll take a quick break and come back with more of my conversation with Ethiopia to Marry Him recording to the Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. This podcast is brought to you by tune In, which brings together all the live, sports, music, news and podcasts you love, original, live and on demanded audio, all in one place. Go to tune in dot com slash left sense to download and listen. Okay, let's get

back to my conversation with Ethiopia. Have to marry him in front of a live audience at my Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara, California. Okay, you know, traditionally, growing up with immigrant parents can be difficult. They're strict, they come from a different background. Did you experience any of that, yes, But also so I never got a chance to go back to Ethiopia until I was older, until I was

like maybe twenty three. And I didn't know why, because my father is the dean at this, you know, university. I'm like, we're pretty well off, you know, I'm thinking we are, but we're really not. We should be giving my dad's position. Um. But it wasn't until I went back home that I realized my father was taking care of a lot of people, a lot of family members. We have a huge family there, but here we did not.

I didn't know many family members. When my friends would have family reunions and things, I couldn't relate to that experience at all because I only knew my two aunts on my father's side and my you know, my aunts and uncles on my mom's side. But we had a huge family, and my father was taking care of everyone, not only on his side of the family, but also

my mother side of the family. They were really all one family back in Ethiopia, and so my father worked so much that he wasn't, you know, as tough on me because he was just working all the time. But also I was a really good kid, like I didn't want to every disappoint my father or my parents at all. And my mom she was probably stricter on me as

mothers would be. Right, Um, but she got sick when I was in high school and with us, yeah, she got sick when I was in high school, and um, she wasn't at present, So you know, I really had a lot of freedom. And so what are your siblings doing today? My older brother is still in Atlanta. He works at the Fox Theater there running production on that side. And then my little brother, um, graduated from the University of Georgia. He actually took this year off to help

my father. My father got diagnosed with Parkinson's in November, so he's had to retire. My little brother is there helping him, you know, deal with stepping down from being at the university, et cetera. My little brother is like an angel. He's brilliant, but also like this amazing, amazing kid man. But okay, so your parents have a big insistence on education because your father, Yes, so when I was. You know, when I was younger, my father would like, go to Boston. We'd go visit like M I T

and Harvard or whatever. My father wanted me to either be a lawyer or be a scientist, et cetera. Um, And I thought for a second mate about being a lawyer. But once I got introduced to music, that was all she wrote. That was it. Um. But I won't lie. It wasn't It wasn't that easy. So when I, you know, I go through high school, I graduate, and and and so I in turned out LA Face and I just get into the music community there. There's so much happening.

And then I found out about this internship program. I got a paid internship when I was sixteen at Electoral Records, the satellite office there in Atlanta. UM. I graduated at seventeen, I get hired as an assistant at LA Face in the production department, which wasn't really sexy, but I was making a check and then I could still help out in marketing and promotions or whatever. Um. So I did that, but my father was like, no, you have to go to college. I'm like, just give me a year that like,

let me just see how this goes. It might turn into something, and he was pretty supportive of that. My mom not so much. But she had gone to Ethiopia to go visit the family that first year, so she didn't really like get to um told me back then, you know what I mean. So my dad was coming back and forth from Alabama, and I was just working, and I really just worked my butt off. I did everything. I would babysit to make extra money, and that led

to other opportunities. I ended up working opportunities. Okay, So I babysitting for the woman named Lronda Sutton who started l A Read's publishing company, hit Co Music Publishing. Okay, she started it, and it was in the LaFace office. She was fabulous. She would walk past my cubicle and she would say things to me, like you're gonna work. You're gonna work for me. One day. I like how you answer phones. I was like, okay, that's good, you know.

And so she was a single mother there and needed help, and so I was working as assistant. I would leave, I would babysit for her until she was able to come home, and then at night I'd be in the clubs doing whatever. So when LaRonda left, hit coach. She went to Edmunds Music Publishing in Los Angeles, and she told me I'd make a great I'd be a great music publisher. She knew my taste. I would play her records, etcetera.

And she was the one that offered me an opportunity to work in publishing at Emmon's Music Publishing, and that's how I got the job there. Okay, So you never do go to college, never do go to college, and any regrets there? Okay? No, However, I don't think it's for you. I don't think that's the route for everyone. And I do think education is important as long as you know your interests and like the things that you

want to learn about. I think I'm in a at a at a point in my life where there are other things that I'm interested in that I would want to like go back to school to learn about. But no regrets. Okay. So you're in Atlanta, you're working in La Face, You're starting as an assistant answering phones, what's the next step up the ladder. At the same time that I was doing that, I was helping out in marketing.

I was helping out in the promotions department, and I was doing a lot, and I wanted a full time job in marketing. I wanted to be in marketing. The general manager there at the time, though, was like, you know, you need to go to college. We're not gonna hire you full time. You need to go to college. And I was like, you know what, my father isn't even making me go to college. And I had the support of all the executives there, etcetera. And I remember, do

you guys remember the Impact Music Convention? Yeah, so I remember, Yeah, I wrote, I wrote the g M a proposal and I said, I sent it to him and I said, this is why I L Facial sponsored me going to the Impact Music Convention UM and so they paid for my travel and my registration to go to the convention.

And he was like, when you come back, you have to make a decision if you're going to go to school, you know, or if you're just going to continue on here working part time, but I'm not hiring you full time. And I came back and I was like, I quit. I didn't have a job in place, by the way, I didn't know what I was gonna do, but I just felt like they didn't really value me. And I wasn't gonna be forced, you know, into being a scenario. I had to stay a part time. I was doing

a lot for the company at the time. Um oh, I remember when I was I met a guy named Doug Brown. Doug Brown was partners with Johnny Wright. They were managing Left Eye as a as a solo artist at the time, and I was like the only person that was like nice to him because LA didn't know who Johnny Wright was and who Dug Brown was, and they were like, who the hell are these people managing Left Eye. I was a nice person to him, So

I got introduced to in Sync through that relationship. I quit and started working with in syncing their charity organization, like helping them put their charity like organization together celebrity basketball games parties. My goal was to like infuse the cool urban scene in Atlanta to what InSync was doing.

But this was like right at the beginning. So I would get like Germaine dupri and people like that to come playing their games and stuff, and I just made extra money doing that until I could figure out what I was gonna do next. And what did you figure out you wanted to do. That's when Lo Rhonda offered me the job of music publishing. And how long after you quit was that that was probably a year and a half. Okay, that was in Atlanta. That was in Atlanta,

and at the time, my father was very supportive. I remember the sky Tell two A pagers. I told my dad, I said, Daddy, if I'm gonna make it, you have to buy me a sky Tell tway pager. You have to have one in order to be in the music business. So he bought me a sky Tell two A pager. He bought me a Fox a fax machine that I had in my bedroom and I had like I always had, like the latest computer because my father had him from work and I would I would just work from my

from my bedroom. Your father actually was very supportive, was yeah, okay, so you work in publishing. What do you learn immediately? Work publishing? Right, because I didn't know. I didn't know what publishing was when I took the job. So I was a song plugger. Basically, etmus Music Publishing was baby Face and Tracy Etmun's publishing company. It was administered through

m I and UM. They had about ten writers signed to them at the time, and when I got there, the job was to really build morale amongst the writers into help shop their songs. But it was a tough situation because I think a lot of the writers were under the impression that they would be writing with baby Face and that was not the case. He didn't he didn't deal with them at all. So it was a little tough and I tried my best. I did. I

were put together writing camps. This is like really like, you know, two thousand, two thousand and one, putting together a lot of writing camps, etcetera with them. Um and I would go to New York and shop records, you know, And I knew I wanted to be in New York because that's where it was all happening and in the industry at the time. Um I will say this happened

so I I because my relationship with in Sinc. They were working on their last album at the time, and um I was able to get a track placed on their last album with some producers that were actually signed to Universal Publishing, and one of them had worked with one of my writers at Edmonds And it was a huge deal because these producers hadn't really been that active on the Universal side, and um I got this placement

for Instinct. It was a really big deal. And I remember Tom Sturgions, who was at Universal Publishing at the time, wanted to know how that happened because he couldn't believe these producers got to cut on this sinc. And I got the call from Universal because he wanted to meet with me and they offered me a job. That's yeah, that's when. That's when I first got a job. I had only been at Edmunds though for maybe eight months, and I was like, I'm still learning what publishing is.

I can't leave. I don't I'm not ready for this, but thank you, you know. And I was loyal to the opportunity that I had an MS. I stayed there for two years. Then an opportunity came about in New York at Universal Publishing. I got hired there as a creative manager like a year and a half later. Being a single woman now moving to New York. It was I mean, I was making no money. I think I was probably making forty five dollars a year. Um, it

was hard. It was extremely hard. I remember time was walking out of that building at like it's raining, the wind is blowing, and like literally just crying because it was tough and I was broke. I had to take the ferry across Jersey. You know. It was tough. It was really really tough, but I made it work. And um, the first first person I sawned was Joe Button. He had this track called Pump It Up that was exploding

at the time. I also found that, like, there weren't a lot of fans of the publishing company at the time when I got there, Like Kedar Massenburg was there. He was a bit of an asshole. Uh. He remember him saying, seeing these are people I would read about two. So I was like excited when I was seeing him in the hallway and Kadar was like, oh, yeah, you work for the publishing company. Yeah, fuck them, And I'm

like what you know what I mean? Like that, that was my introduction to some of the people because they just didn't support what we were doing at the publishing company. So it was um. I learned a lot during those first couple of years, and uh I went back to Atlanta a lot too, though, because the music scene was always happening there because of my relationships that I had when I was coming up and I was young when

I got the job in Publishing Ludicrous. Ludicrous had been a DJ on the radio and on air, part personality when I got the job. He's huge now. He left E M I Publishing and came and signed with me at Universal, which was a big deal at the time. And from that David supported me and signing new things that I wanted to develop to develop. So that was his producer Polodon, who went on to have like huge

hits with Pussycat Dolls, Um Fergie, et cetera. I signed a writer named Carry Hilton who records was like Timberland, like the way I are. She wrote records for Ussher, Sierra, etcetera. But these were I signed them before they all had these hits. How did you find them? They were in Atlanta. I knew Polo from my younger years in Atlanta being on the scene. He was an artist, an aspiring hip hop artist and had started producing music and when I when I heard his beat, so I was like, okay,

these are great. So when I signed Ludicrous, I immediately signed him after that because I had the trust of David. He was like, you brought in this huge deal. You know, I had the the leeway to sign new and developing things too. And it ended up actually Polo had a hit on on Ludicrous, and then Carrie started having hits, etcetera. And I just started building my roster from there. And how did you end up in l A the mostown gig? So you in New York told the mostown gig? Yes, okay,

so you're working in publishing. You foresee the that your career is going to be in publishing. I did. Actually I dibbled and dabbled in an R. So I signed an artist named Sierra to a publishing deal. Um. She had a lot of success with her first record, and she was making she was supposed to make her second album, and she didn't have a great relationship with the label, UM because her A R guy that was there wasn't there anymore. And so because I'm her publisher, she wants

me to A and R the record. I've never done an R before. I was like, all right, we're gonna give this a go. And that's how I learned a R. Like working with her and doing the second album, I knew Barry Weiss through that dynamic, and we had a lot of success with the second album, and um yeah, because I remember we came out the same day once Definding was putting out her solo record, and we beat her like we came in number one. We had a lot of you know, And that's how I got my

introduction into A and R. Were you making now? I've been promoted because I had some success. I think I was probably a senior actor or something like that at the time. Um, So I did A and R and I liked it. It It was a lot had a lot of respect for an R. Like as a publisher you really feel like you're at the ground level because you're working with creators and songwriters and you really know what's next. Before I thought always before labels, did you know? Um?

And in some cases you do because you have a lot more time to develop and nurture things, whereas at a label it can be really difficult. You just have to know how to manage your roster and manage your time in order to do both right. Um. But as a publisher you definitely have more time to nurture and develop talent overall. And um, when I got into A and R, I love the process of helping to make a body of work and helping an artist see their full vision come to life. So how many years were

in New York at Universal Publishing. I've just I just segued from being in a dual role between Universal Publishing and the label because I was made an e v P of Urban Co head of the creative department probably five years ago, six years ago, I can't keep track of the time. That probably about six years ago, and I segued out of the publishing company like a year ago. So what is the dream for you personally? Ship? Um? The dream for me personally, you know, to find balance,

right to like joy. I love what I do in music, and you know, growing as a music executive as you move up the corporate ladder, you see yourself kind of getting sometimes away from the process, the creative process that you loved and enjoyed it. For me, it's about having a better balance between both because that creative process is actually what fuels me, you know what I mean. Like I love making the records, connecting with the talent, etcetera. And so just having more of a balance of that.

This is all a part of my life. Um so yeah, okay, but is there time for romance? Yeah? There is, Okay, make time for that. Yeah, I mean I was I was engaged, so I was engaged five years ago and I called it off. He wasn't the right one, And was that he in the music business. Yes, okay, let's leave it there. Let's leave it there. So at least he understood your lifestyle. Yeah, okay. So is now as we keep creeping in your biological imperative? Is new? Clock

is ticking louder? Does that bother you? If you didn't have children? Would that be? Okay? What type of citizen? No? The point is you're a very powerful, strong executive, your role model for people. The question can you do it all? Yeah? I do think you can do it all for me. It's I've never looked at it like I couldn't. You know. I'll be honest with you. I never looked at it like I couldn't. I'm I was a helpless romantic. I'm like, I never believed that I couldn't have it all. You know,

I don't really subscribe to those thoughts or ideas. Yes, I can't have it all. I just has to be with the right person. Okay, so said By the way, he's stud I'm like, right, he's stunding my dad. We'll take a quick break and come back with more of my conversation with Ethiopia, have to Marry Him? Recording it the music media stummit in Santa Barbara, California. This week

I'm speaking with the president of Motown Records. Two weeks ago, I had Moby from the l A Times Festival Books, and last week we heard Brazilian legend Gilberto Joe, who welcomed me into a video in the hills of Rio de Janeiro. Be the first to hear next week's episode by subscribing to the podcast on tune in, Apple Podcast or your podcast player of choice. Check out the first

twenty interviews, and please rate and review the podcast. Okay, let's get back to my conversation with Ethiopia, have to Marry Him in front of a live audience at my music media summit in Santa Barbara, California. Being a powerful black woman in society and uh, there's a lot of attention paid attention to you know, pointed at you. And do you feel responsibility to be a role model? I I have to live my life for me, yes, I do.

But but I feel a responsibility to myself first. Um, and I can't really get too caught up in that, but I of course I'm aware that people look up to me, because I know that there were people that I looked up to. But you quickly learn that you can't, you know, idolize people, or you can't think that people won't make mistakes. And so I just want to be comfortable with the decisions that I make from my life. And I've gotten to a place where I'm like, i

gotta do what's right for me. And do you feel any responsibility with your position and power to impact other parts of the culture. Definitely, and what does that look like? Um? For me, it's about how I relate to the artists and talent that I deal with their times when they can be going through through certain things in their life where I think the artists have the biggest platforms to

really affect change um. And so I know the conversations that I have in the background, or if I'm helping them through situations in their own life to get them to a place that they that they can create art that I know will affect people. UM. So you find you're actually leading the act as opposed to the act

leading you. It depends on the scenario or or the In certain situations, it may have been the writer like there have been times I've been in sessions where artists maybe I know that they're emotionally in a certain place in their lives and and they don't have a good translator. So it's my job to identify the right people to have in the room to help bring that out of them and then to translate what what I know will

come out and connect to other people. And that's that's a gift, you know what I mean, And it's worked in a lot of ways. And then also you know, I have I have this writer named Sebastian cole right, thirty five year old black man from Birmingham, Alabama. I figned him when he was like, you know, living out of his car and Los Angeles, drove to l A to pursue his dreams, etcetera. He went on to write like the Alestia Carra hits like you know here, Scarcy,

you're beautiful, etcetera, etcetera. To me, that feels like my contribution to the culture as well, because I know that someone like him would not have normally gotten an opportunity to get the kind of deal that he got in that belief early on, I mean, I signed him way before there was the smashes, etceteran. So I feel very privileged because I'm able to provide those opportunities for people that I know have the gift and then helping them get to a place where they can create music that

will touch people. Um So, whether it was a Sebastian or it was you know, these writers from Atlanta and the rock city who went on to be huge pop songwriters. You know, that's a gift for me because I know that normally they wouldn't get those shots. And to what degree do you feel racism in the music industry? Okay, so I'll be honest about it, because I have to be Racism wasn't something that I had thought about in

the industry for a long time. When you put your head down and just do the work and you're working so much, it wasn't something that I had thought about. So it wasn't until I got the Motown gig that it came up for me. Now, when I was pursuing my career in music, I read every trade magazine and and you know, there were the people I looked up to.

It was an artist, it was other executives that I you know, so there were a lot of women of color that were in senior roles on the A and R side, across all the labels, right in the publishing companies, etcetera. And Um, I never looked at it like there being an issue before. When I got the job at Motown, I was originally hired as an s VP of n R Motown was UH moved under Island def jam Um,

and I remember the switch. I remember the conversations changing where people were pointing out to me the lack of black executives in the music business, and have you noticed the change, etcetera. And I started noticing that there was a change. You know, there was a lot of conversation around the role at death sham Um and I hadn't really thought about it in that way before because I was I wasn't a person who thought about like because I was a woman, or because I was black, I

wouldn't ever make it. And this is from me as a kid. I never thought about those things. And it may have been because I was in Atlanta where I was surrounded around a lot of success, a lot of huge success, but around people that looked like me, so I never thought it would be an issue. I moved to New York still didn't think it was an issue, and then I noticed that there was a change. Also, Urban music got to a place where we were making as much money, right, So I choose to take the

Motown to do be in this dual role. I became a very successful music publisher and then having success doing A and R as well. I also managed Carry Hilton. She went from being a songwriter to an artist. I helped her get her deal and then managed her and addition to being a publisher, right, so I got to grow and see a lot as a creative executive and I became very powerful in the business. But then I

took this role at Motown and things were changing. You could have a number one urban record and it didn't equit to anything, right, So the power base changed and it became a real issue for the lack of black executives in the business. You just saw like a complete shift happening, and it wasn't really spoken about. You just felt it, and there were a group of a group of people that would talk about it a lot um.

And I had to educate myself. I had mentors and I still have a mentor in my life, Clearance Avon, that just educated me on the history of the business and things that had happened before UM and looking at what was happening, you know, at the time, and what is what's happening currently. But I do feel a real responsibility for making sure I create opportunities for people that look like me. I remember, you know, at one point, UM renegotiating with my deal at Universal Publishing and Jay

Brown Right Nations. So when I respect UM and admire, I'm having hits after hits after hits, and it's so it's Polo having hits. Ester Dean, my songwright, you know, Esterdin is one of my songwriters. She's having a lot of hits. And he said to me, he said, he has them take urban out of your title. Because I was like the head. He's like, have them take urban out of your title. You know, all your writers are writing all the pop hits. And I was like, shit, okay,

I didn't really think about that. And then I remember speaking to another friend of mine and he was like, well, if you do that, will there'll be a responsibility at these companies for them to hire people that look like you. I was like, you know what, yeah, you're right. So I kept it in my title. It's not something that I run away from. UM, I'm I'm proud of the culture that I come from. You know, I'm clearly ether up in American but I grew up in the South

and you know, all black neighborhood, etcetera. But my experiences and and things that I went through as a kid are very similar to what a lot of other people went through. Doesn't but but my culture and what I lived and breathe is I'm I'm fining to represent that, and I'm fining to give opportunities for talent that also

come from that same culture as well. And I think it's important that had to have people inside of the companies that can relate to it on that level, not just look at it through a computer screen or through their phones and say, oh, I'm urban because I'm watching your culture, you know what I mean, but not really having understood it or lived it or breathed it. And I think that there's a responsibility to these companies to know the difference UM and have people in there that

actually like are from it. And what about being a woman in the music industry and a woman in society, especially in the light of the me too uh movement in the last eight months or so. UM, I mean, you know, it's kind of similar in that let's start from have you personally, not that we need details, had bad experiences. I have had bad experiences, not a lot

of them. I've had situations more with you know, sometimes with like aggressive talent or aggressive there's been this weird thing that might happen with talent where there they feel like you're there's you know what I mean, like because you're a woman, or you might be nurturing, etcetera. They get they get those lines blurred or whatever, and then you have to check them. But I've always been a

person that's been about checking them. Even when, like there was a time I was doing street promotions and I would come across situations dealing with promoters or etcetera. I had no problem checking them. Let's just to be clear, because I'm a male and we're on the other side of the fence, give me an illustration of what checking somebody would be like. UM, I'm gonna tell I'm gonna

tell you a story. I'm gonna tell you a story about when I was at LA Face and in addition of being a production assistant, I was also doing promotions and produce, street promotions, etcetera. And I remember going to North Carolina or South Carolina or something with some of my girlfriends that were helping me for this party that we were doing, and we had to deal with the promoter and he had his friends so they we have

a successful event. They decided to show up to our hotel room and a few of my friends had been drinking. We had ordered room service. So I'm the person that knew to just like grab one of the knobs and put it under the pillow just in case anything gets crazy, right, Just That's just how I was. But and I think the guys thought it was gonna be a another kind of situation. I'm like the one that like, get up, get the funk out of here, you know what I mean, Like,

how dare you even try? This? Was like a you know, it was one of those situations where I work for the Face Records. I'm here too, you know, as someone that's working on this event. How dare you try us? And they really felt like, because my friends were there and they were you know, being social, that it could

be something more. And the I think the moment you allow the lines to get a little blurred, people feel like they can really test you and take it there, and you just can't be afraid to speak up and say, I'm not going to allow that to happen. And I've had other extreme situations as I've gotten older, where you've had to just deal with it in the immediate and no, not to let things even get to the point where

they could get blurred. Has the opposite been true ever, where you say, well, the lines may be blurred, but this will work to my advantage career wise. So I don't want to cross the line, but I'm willing to ride with it. No, like just letting people get away with things because it's gonna work for my career. It's interesting culturally, I think this is you know, it's it's very illustrative. I think, I mean, I don't know the way you're saying white women seem to you know, it

seems like the strong black woman. The image is like they're shutting it down, and uh, I mean, well, and I'll tell you it's for me. It was really about respect. It was really about respect because I respect myself within my career and I want you want, I want you to respect me as an executive first, like I never wanted it. I would never want them to think it

could be anything else. You know. Um, I will tell you there was a time with a producer that I worked with where I think he felt because we worked very closely with him, he felt like the relationship was more than what it was. And I was like, are

you fucking delusional? You know what I mean? And it's really because it can become an intimate dynamic when you're you know, if they get to call you at three in the morning and you're making yourself available to talk through a concept or idea, but you don't have any romantic feelings for them, It's not anything like that. It's a part of the r of being an n R or making records, etceter Or you go through that, you know what I mean. But this fool lost his mind,

like in the moment you're in a relationship. It's like he couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle me being in a relationship. He felt like I whatever. And I was like, are you out of your mind? Um? And he was. And then that went I mean, are you one of a kind or your friends as strong as you are? Listen, I'm not gonna try and come off as like I'm a super strong person all the time. That's not my truth. That's not my truth. Um, I do think I'm one

of a kind. Okay, And uh, you know, if if you look at what happened in Ferguson and now that everyone has a phone in their camera, we see all these racial elements and then we have Kanye saying George Bush doesn't like black people, and now he's cozying up to Trump. Okay, I guess these are two questions. You might mix the answers together. But is there an inherent injustice?

Because African American culture is ruling the culture, so it's kind of ironic that it's not getting the respect economically and culturally in terms of equality. Right, So what's the question? Question is, first, do you personally feel that injustice of being a black person in America? And are you taking any steps or contamable in any steps to rectify that? Yes? And what might they look like? Yes? Yes, I do feel the injustices that exist. Um, what steps in my taking?

I mean if you look at it as a white person, we're listening to iced tea and we'll you know, fuck the police, etcetera, n w A and all of a sudden, the Rodney King think happens. Holy shit, everything in the records was true. Okay, so there's a catch shop. And I still believe there's an education that the white people need that. So I have friends that are white, that are Asian, etcetera. And I find myself, you know, I have one of my closest friends as a white woman

who only dates black or Latino man. Right, and as this conversation and the incidents that have happened over the past, I say, it's been five years, etcetera. UM, having to educate her about what that would mean. I'm like, if you have a kid, you're gonna have a black son, So let's talk about what that experience will be like

and what how you'll have to handle that as a mother. UM. And I feel like it's my responsibility to really educate the people that I'm around and not and and to not do it, to not make them feel like they can't talk to me about it, you know what I mean? If I can be the person to try and be a bridge and educate the people that I know do have good hearts but don't really understand, because I think that we're all out of place racism is real, but I'm I also know I'm I'm an empathy and I

learned that about myself pretty early on. I know about humanity and I connect to human beings. That's who I am. That's how I connect to music. That's how I know

we're really all the same. Um. If I have the opportunity to get you to understand who I am, who my people are, and I can connect with you because I really do have compassion for other people, no matter what your races, no matter what you're going I'm like one of those people that cry at a commercial if I feel like if I see someone i'm I really

do feel it. UM. I want to be that bridge to educate them, and to be honest with you, I'm trying to find other ways to make a difference, you know, because it's not just the typical tweet something or post something and say it's this. How do you really um? I think you know, it's about kids feeling like they can communicate amongst each other and educate them without them

feeling isolated. I'm trying to find the right way to go about it, honestly, But I do think and how I carry myself on an everyday basis, how how I dial with my coworkers, how I operate could be an example. Okay, you talked about having mentors. Are you now a mentor yourself to certain individuals? Yeah? I am. Um. You know, there was a point at the publishing company where my whole urban department it was all women, but a diverse group of women of you know, white women, there was

an Asian woman whatever. And it wasn't by design. It wasn't because I was like, I'm gonna have a department of all women. These are just really dope people. And I looked up one day and they were. It was all women. I had other people at other publishing companies coming to me and saying like, how did you you know? Like you have a whole squad. I was like. The one person said to me, like, you guys are the pink ladies. You should have jackets. I was like, Okay,

you're a fucking asshole, but you're actually right. It would actually look dope if we showed up like that, right. But because I didn't even notice that they were all women and they were really doping this you know several years ago. Um, and and all of those those women I mentor and other young women reach out to me all the time. One of the things I pride myself

and is helping to develop other executives. So when I was coming up, one of the things I noticed, I don't think a lot of people talk about this, is that you come across people that don't want to help other people, or people that feel um intimidated because they may be getting older, etcetera. That this young person coming up is gonna take my job. They operate from an

insecure place. And I was like, I'm never going to be that person ever, ever, ever, because I experienced it myself, and so I made it a point to you know, I've I've kind of been known as a person that will grow people from assistance etcetera into being you know, vice president's etcetera. And so I'm proud that I've been able to do that and help other people get opportunities

at other companies. I'm proud of that. For those of us who live through the sixties, music played a big part in terms of the at the I'm called the revolution. We can debate the effect of the revolution, but certainly the Vietnam War was stopped in music helped, so there was the invasion of Iraq in the beginning of the century, and everyone said, where's the protest music? And there wasn't any protest music. Now, in light of all if Trump and all this craziness, people are saying, where is the

protest music? But in reality that's a white perspective. The white people, the white acts are really not making protest music. But run the Jewels are a million African American acts. What is it going to take for one of those songs to become any anthem? I think it has to be a great song. Do you think we haven't found these songs yet? I don't. I don't know if we have. I don't know if we've come across. I don't know if we have the music yet that's can connect to

all people. Also, you know, the people of influence that can really create the music that can you know, connect all of us. I don't think that they've gone there yet. I think that we need music that really relates to what we're all experiencing and we haven't seen or experience like the talent that's created that that can be the right vessel for it. And when you have people like a Kanye doing the Crazy Ship that he's doing. Um, I think it. Um, He's confused a lot of people.

He's confused a lot of artists about where to stand. And you know, I agree with you. We are missing out on the protest music. We're all we're missing out on the music that really speaks to what's happening in this country. And I don't know why it's not. I don't know why it's not being created, you know what I mean. I don't know why people aren't being honest in their music and not really expressing themselves in that

way and really making an effort to do it. I think that there's some people that are, but not not the big superstars that we need to If we focus on Kanye forgetting what he's done, you know who knows when this wire is a podcast? But where is what is Kanye's place in African American culture? He's considered to be one of the greats, one of the most influential

artists of our time, and you agree with that. So when he comes out and he says things that are pro Trump and he does some crazy stuff, do you think it's an incredible art experienced mind fucking the culture to get people to think or do you believe that he's just lost his mind. He has the right to be approach Trump. I also think that he has the responsibility to be well informed. And I also think that the ego is a powerful, powerful thing, and I think

that he's aware of his power. I think that sometimes he's operating from his ego and he's playing with us. He's playing with the people that really connected him and that are his fans. And I think that, um, it almost feels like the person that has like the up it's that's kind of like playing with everyone, but he doesn't really understand how much it could affect everybody. I mean, I know people that were really like distraught over the things that he said. And I don't think he's well informed.

So to say you're operating out of love, but to not at least when you talk about being pro Trump, but not to also say that he's not operated out of love when he's you know, insinuated or or created people to operate from a place of hate. Yet a lot of times it is really kind of crazy, not when you're kind it was let's talk about the music. One thing we know students of the game, all of the breakthroughs in new marketing, new exposure have come from

the urban side. Okay, so we've had SoundCloud, we've had mixed tapes. Is this something that came up from the ground or is this something you helped make happen and what you have observed has happened. No, it's it came from the round. I mean, mix tapes have always existed. People operated from that place, and and um, when streaming came about, it really just created an opportunity for us to see what was already happening on the ground level.

When SoundCloud and streaming came about, you got to see what was happening on the ground level already with my mix tapes, that Pith, etcetera. Urban music never went away. What happened was how do you really monetize the music? Because kids were always listening to hip hop and urban music, we just couldn't figure figure out how to make the money from it. So so we had my mix tapes,

We had that pif etcetera. Soundfoul came about. Then it was like, oh, you know, these these artists are popping off. It's a great form of research. Then then we worked out our deals with Spotify, Apple Music, etcetera. And we got to see how dominant the genre was or the culture was, and um, it changed everything. I mean I lived it from being in a role at you know, at Motown where urban music well, I mean it was tough. It's shipped for me. I went through a very hard

time there to then see the complete shift happen. And it's a complete focus on urban music and culture. Now. It's because they get to see the full value, because they see the money coming in now. Well, I mean it's just interesting because while the heritage tracks and the white acts kept complaining they weren't making any money from recorded music, the urban acts went in and fill the void and now own. And they also they knew how to roll up the sleeves and do the work right.

Like they had to operate on a ground level. They had to do the mom and pop circuit. They had to get out there and get on the road, sell music, you know from their trunks or whatever, or you know, make their hoodies and T shirts on their own and sell them while they were doing the shows. They did the groundwork. And to be honest with you, it really is a hip hop lifestyle. Um. You know, I've had this conversation with R. And b artists where I feel like they don't have the same work ethic as some

of these hip hop artists. Well, they'll go and do everything whatever it takes. They call it the hustle, right, they do it all and they just don't stop. And I think that you have to have that ability, um, and and you gotta have that work ethic in order to make it. Doesn't mean that you have to put out music the same way that they do. You just have to be able to work that hard and do whatever it takes. And that's where you get to see innovation and strategy in different ways to go about putting

out records. People talk to me a lot about you know, so I did this deal with Quality Control, right, um, And we've put out a lot of records with them, And one of the things that we did in our deal with them is we included a distribution element to the deal through Caroline Distribution. And that was on purpose so that they could go bake things that they're used to baking without having the red tape that a major

label kind of has. There certain rules and regulations that we have so we can make money off of the things we put put out. But if you have things just on a distribution level, you don't have those same um rules and regulations that get in the way of

you putting things out a certain way. But I put that in the deal because we have Caroline distributions so that they still freedom to do what they did to do what they do when for things they're to be very specific, if they're on Modetown as opposed to Caroline, what would they be unable to do? Um, put out certain videos on World Star hip Hop, or put out videos on World Star hip Hop, or put out mix

tapes on that Piff or my mixtapes. And that's really just because of us not having worked out the deals with them yet to get paid properly. But if it's a distribution deal, um, we don't have to worry about that as much as they deal with that. Let's say you're a star or superstar. You know, the obvious one being Drake. He is now reinvented what a release is. He had the mixtape March eight, fourteen months ago. If

you're a superstar, do you need an album? I mean, Kanye has been dropping these singles, who knows whether they're joker real, But is a at the label what are you telling the superstars to do. I would want to hear an album from Drake because we're used to hearing albums from him. But he could put out several singles before releasing the full but the full body of work, you know what I mean. It just depends on who the artist is. It's a different strategy for each act.

It really is. Let's go be very specific. Is the album dead? Well, if you look at the uh, if you look at the Spotify top fifty, which is consumption, Okay, we know that it's a lot of singles. And let's say the Weekend comes out, It'll put out his album and four of the top ten will be weekend tracks, okay, but then they'll fall off okay, and there'll be one track to the next track. We know that people, the customer demands a body of work. If you like something,

you want to be able to hear more. What I always do if I an act is new to me, I'll go on Spotify, see what has the most streams, and I'll say I'll play that next. So I definitely wants stuff to be there. But if you go back, you know, before the turn of the century, the game was okay, put out an album in the marketplace, I

go single to single, you know, I go fight. But the problem then, and the problem has been exacerbated now in the window when you're not in the marketplace, other people will come and fill that hole and you might be forgotten. So is it better just to be able to release product on a regular basis? I believe it is. I think you can do it all if you're a creator. So let's say Drake is making an album, he puts out several singles, leads into an album, and then he

wants to go and drop other singles after that. He should be able to do that. I think streaming allows us an opportunity to put out music the way that we see fit without there being any fucking rules or regulations to to how we go about it. I think that it's so different now. But when you mentioned Drake before as a fan, you're used to getting full bodies of work from him, and people have bought into that

idea and they believe in him in that way. So let's let's say, you know, it's it's it's our responsibility to create new superstars. Right. People want to know what it is you stand for, what do you represent? Etcetera. You have to have a body of work or several songs in order to really represent what that is, and it's gonna take time to get there. You gotta put out a lot of music to really convince people to buy in to who you are, what you stand for, etcetera.

And to want to be in business with that artist, to want to like go to the show, to want to watch your performance on the award show, to like buy your merch etcetera. But it's our job to come up with ways to make sure we're telling your full story and getting people to buy into that artist. But to what degree is the label behind in time of the artists? Because what do we know? The label makes their money off recorded music and they have an antiquated concept.

The more tracks we put out, the more money we can make. Now in today's you know, a lot of these albums you go on Spotify. But I don't think not because I don't think that I don't We don't operate from a place of telling them you have to do it this way though you know what I mean, like that you have that you have to put it

out this way. I like to work with artists that are self aware enough and know what they what they want to say or put out in the market, and we can help support that and come out with ways to do it. Or if they if they come and play you records and then we talk about a strategy that makes sense for them. But the idea of dictating to an artist what they do and how they go about it doesn't really exist anymore. We can present ideas to them, but you want them to be self aware

enough to know what they want to do. What's a full expression? So the artists assigned to you, they've had some success, they come with the record. You don't think the record is up to your standards? Will you say so? And will you refuse to put it out? No, I'll let them bump their heads and fail and let them learn their lesson. The speaking of failures, talking UH to Chris Rue, manager of Logic, and he was saying, how failure is not the disaster that it once was then

in the streaming era. If you fail, you can come back and agree. And why do you think that is? Because it's really I think overall is about your resilience, right, and so if you keep putting music out, people will catch on eventually, you know, and I think that people have such a short attention span. If something was successful and you come right back with the next project and it is great, you actually have the opportunity to remind people that it's about the music, that it's about how

great the music is. And that's what streaming has allowed us to really see that it's about how great the music really is. So you really the failure is really in if you give up, if you just decide that I can't take it. I can't take the opinions of you know, anyone saying that my album was a flop, et cetera. Then you just like go into the pression somewhere and don't create great music. You gotta keep going, and I think hip hop as a culture has has

been operating from that place. And let's say you signed a new ract, what would you tell them to do to get themselves down? Good question, Okay, because I have a few new acts that we're working on um. In addition to the music that they're making right well, I'm

also talking about the distribution of set music. They have to speak to their fans and the like, whatever the messaging is in their music, they have to speak to their fans build their fan base and know what it is about them that will make people connect to them and build off of that. I also feel like it's really important to be on the road and develop a touring fan base in addition to putting out music or

being on social media. I think oftentimes we've come across artists that might have an incredible social media following and then don't know how to connect to people in real life um. And I think the live show element is a huge part of this, and I think that we need more artists and know how to do that, So

I would definitely get them to focus on that. I think more now than ever, we have to make sure we're developing artists that can put together great shows um and knowing knowing how to connect with their fans at the same time. And also, you know, we talk about the fashion element that kind of feeds into music as well, like building that out if that if that's right for the artist, So it just depends it's specific to each artist.

And how about in terms of raw distribution, do you have a new act, would you say to be on SoundCloud first? Would you say to put out a mixtape before you go? Depends on who the artist is. It depends on who the artist is. And the funny thing about what a mix tape is now so crazy what we call things EP, mixtape, project, It all has these labels. It's music at the end of the day, so we really just try to title it's something that fits in the scheme of whatever the the artist is ultimately trying

to get to. Let's say we're building to an album, or there's an overall theme for several projects they're putting out. Will come up with that as opposed to calling it a mix tape. We put out mix tapes and they're really albums and make money on them and they've been successful as if their albums, you know what I mean. So it just depends on how you want to And also in the hip hop world, there's very much a culture online. Something comes out, people know and it immediately

runs up the Spotify chart. Radio tends to be months behind. How important is terrestrial radio in the hip hop world? It's the end goal, that's it. It used to be the place for a discovery, but for us now it's like it's just another, you know, another thing to mention on the hot sheet of all the things that you've achieved, but it's the end goal. You know, once you've put a record out, had a lot of success, etcetera, and then it goes to radio, it's just another like another marker.

I hope you're enjoying this episode of the Bob Left Sets Podcast. If you want to hear sound bites or check out videos and photos of our guests, go to at tune in on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Now more of Ethiopia Hab to Maria, recorded in front of a live audience of the Music Media Summit in Santa Barbara on The Bob Left Sets Podcast. Okay, questions for Ethiopia. Razor here, Jim has, Mike's Jake, thanks for coming here.

Today's quite inspiring. I think, um two things. One comment I want to make to you, Bob, which you've never brought up, is Spotify doesn't actually have an album chart, and I think if they had an album chart, maybe we'd know what albums are doing well. Because I just tried to look it up and it doesn't exist. So I think that's the biggest problem is that you can't really talk about albums in reference to Spotify because yeah,

tracks come out and then they go down. Because that's the process is one single at a time, so maybe we should be pushing them to have an album chart and then maybe would make a difference. Um um um.

The other thing is, uh, I'm wondering these days, as president of a major label or division of a major label, let's say, or major for what it is, how much are you looking at um these bands like The Logics and um um uh these other acts that are kind of doing it on their own first and then coming in with a label, or are you starting right from scratch with bands that have you you found talent, but they have no footprint whatsoever. It's a balance of both

for sure. If if there's something that has no following or you like there's nothing going on with them at all, if they at least know exactly what they want to say, who they are as artists, I'm willing to invest in that if I think the music is incredible, because then I can help develop and cultivate that. And I've done that right. But you're definitely you definitely want to be a part of you know, things that are moving or being created and if you can help amplify it on

the global level. I think what Logic is done, It's been incredible UM, but I'm definitely still about development and finding things that are that are great and unique and different. How often do you as a label experience the chance the robber paradigm where you want an act in the access No, I want to do it myself. I mean it's come up a lot. It's come up a lot recently.

I have to be completely honest about that. And so the idea is, you know, what can we offer them and how do we really show what the difference will be if we're involved in their careers or not? Right? And I think that it comes down to the people at the company's It comes down to really showing them the difference and money that they'll be making. I also think it's important to show on a global level what you add to UM to an artist in their overall career.

It's been a real education process. It's come up a lot where artists have no idea about the global aspects. We talk about urban music or hip hop culture being huge is huge around the world, but a lot of the acts don't travel around the world. They don't go

really penetrate the markets the way that they should. And so that's been something that I've been working on because I want to show people the difference and not only you know, show money you can make in the market, but how you can really increase yourselves, how you can go get big branding deals, how you can really amplify your overall career if you travel um And there are a lot of artists who don't see it because they're either just caught up in the perception of what they

see on social media and a little bit of money that they're making on the road and they feel like they're popular. That's not real fucking success. Like I think for a lot of these younger kids, they feel like the popularity is what they see on social media. They're hot for the minute. They can go to these parties and they can make a little bit of money on the road and they're in the cool crowd. But you're not really making real money. You haven't achieved real success yet.

And I think it's important to educate them. We went through an exercise when we were like, let's put real numbers in front of them. But is it affecting royalty rates as you're trying to move these acts? Are you is the label giving up a higher percentage? No, it's just educating them on the more money they can be making and how their sales can be. I mean, I went through it. We we just went through this with me Goes honestly, Um, you know, we've had a very

successful album with them with Culture too. I mean, you know, I'll be honest about it. Getting them to go to Europe for their European promo run was a real fight, but it was an education process for them because they had been with three hundred where they didn't know anything about it. Their last record wasn't fully supported. They didn't know.

They would just go collect checks to do shows over there, but they didn't know about really going to the market, really supporting the record, really doing the shows and how to really connect with the fans there and what that would lead to. They love fashion. Let's go spen a real week in Paris. Let's put a dinner together where we're sitting with these designers and its planning sees that really connect to a bigger thing, you know, like things

that can help grow their careers. And that's the add of value that we can bring to them because then

they'll have a longer career. It as some more sales for us, you know, Okay, over here, would love to hear a story a time when you were in a room with a contemporary, a hot contemporary artist, and they met an iconic artist, maybe someone from the earlier days, something from the city, where you were in that room and you got to see the interaction and I'd love to know what your takeaway was and what the takeaway

was for each of the artists. M hmm. Well, okay, I've been in the room where we introduce people to Barry Gordy and the you know, the reverence that people have for Mr Gorty is really you know, it's incredible because people don't know what he's like, you you know, they have no idea and he's he's pretty charismatic. His memory is incredible. So and I this wouldn't be an artist, but I'm thinking about um the guys some QC and we introduced them to Mr Gordy in the office and

what that meant for them. So Quality Control is the label out of Atlanta that has me goes in Yahti and um. As I was trying to redevelop Motown. One of my goals was to use Motown as a platform for other black entrepreneurs that were developing their own companies and so QC was one of them, and I did my deal with them three and a half years ago and Mr Gordy was at the office one day. Steve Brenna and I were meeting with him and the guys

some QC were there. This is before things popped off for them, and we had them meet and the level of inspiration, you know, they just look like little kids, you know, meeting there. You know the person they looked up to the most. It just and and he named So. The funny thing is, as they're talking, I knew this, but we never talked about it before. Mr Gordy tells them that he called his A and R meetings the quality control meetings, and like it was the big aha

moment for them. They're like, oh, this is meant to be, Like this is everything is aligned And even though we weren't having success, Yeah, I think we all knew, like it's gonna come, that's gonna happen, and that was That

was a pretty cool moment that happened a few years ago. Okay, get a Mike, writer's next, But I have a Mike, so I'm gonna ask I was going to ask the question that you just kind of brought up, which was, you know, when you go and visit When you go and visit Disney, no one's ever said louder gym before.

Right when you go and visit Disney, you know, there's they try to instill Walt Disney into you right when you're at on the and the app in the new especially the new Apple campus, like there's you know, quotes from Steve Jobs on the walls, like is it is Verry Gordy important to Mr Gordy? I guess he is it important to your culture that you're building too? You know, remember what was absolutely definitely one of the things that

we've done. So when I first met him, go to Mr Gorty's house, Um, he has a ton of footage from all you know, from all his and our meetings from back when they would have picnics, etcetera. With the Motown family. He had a ton of He recorded everything, but wasn't doing anything with it. And so I told

Steve about it. Long story shore, you know, we convinced Mr Gorty to do to allow us to do a Motown documentary using all of this footage that he has, which is something that I think a lot of people tried to do but we've been able to achieve it.

So it's something that will come out next year. But in the motivation behind it was to one remind people the a foundation of how Motown was created, but also the foundation of like music right like it's about great songs, it's about work ethic, it's about people coming together, and for him it was also about love, you know. Um, and also too, we connected the dots between a lot of other people that have been influenced by motown over the over time. So okay, Mark, First of all, this

has been a great conversation. I just want you to know that I've got two daughters and I think it would be amazing if they could go into the business and and and just following your footsteps because I and if I had sons, i'd say the same thing. But I appreciate that. Really it's been very inspirational. Um. My question though, is do you find it in today's marketplace?

Do you find it more challenging to develop a brand new artist or to help with the comeback of and already established artist who's coming back from very disappointing album, both commercially or whether it's commercially or or critically or both. It's tough with you know, trying to have a the comeback for an artist that's been established and it's been around for like, let's say, ten years, it's tough. It's tough if they haven't taken the time to really educate

themselves on the new way of operating. I know artists that were huge ten years ago that really haven't caught onto the way streaming is working like that, don't really have Spotify or Apple Music on their phones. I'm like, what are you doing? How do you even know? But they they're artists who don't really you know what I mean, And they were they were huge ten years ago. So it's really tough, um and they can't they can't really adjust to the new marketplace. They can't really adjust to

the way things are operating now. And you know, you can lead them down the role, but if if they're not willing to change the way that they operately, it also really comes down to change. How willing are you to change? Some people get stuck in their ways. Can Stevie Wonder have another hit? What would how will you make that happen? I don't know, Bob, but I'll take the challenge. Well, is it about inspiring him? You know,

you have a long time Steve. Stevie has um, He's been writing music, He's had music for I mean every We've tried for years to try and get into music out of Stevie. I pray it happens. We will all do everything we can to uh and in a hip hop world, and we've seen in the last year all the pop acts have failed in the marketplace, Miley Cyrus, Katie Perry, Taylor, Taylor Swift. If someone is in the urbans field and it's more of a ballad or an

R and B thing than hip hop, can it work? Yes, But it's not even about it being just about hip hop. I think it ultimately comes down so the great how great the song is, you know what I mean when we talk about Katie or Miley, etcetera. They can all come back with great, great songs, and we need music. We need them to come back, and we need them

to come back with substantial music that can connect. I think we also need, you know, outside of these new hip hop artists are hip hop artists in general to talk about the times and things that are happening without sounding preachy. We need our pop artists to create great music that can connect to all people as well. I grew up loving pop music also, you know what I mean. And so you want you want to see that happen. Okay, over here, there was someone with a Mike Okay, Hi

Ethiopia First, I'm seconding what Mark said. Just total respect on every level for you. So and thank you also for definitely handling up Bob's challenging questions about race and gender. So just round of applause for that, I hope. I okay, So if you don't push the edges, you'll never know where they are. UM. Question about representing and promoting female artists, and uh, I know you've worked with Erica, but I do. But I also noticed your roster has more men and

wondered if you could address that. Do you see a day when it'll be more balanced? Are there particular challenges in promoting women? Why is it that there are less women at the top? Uh? Women artists? That's all I want is more female artists. Um. And in my career before as a publisher, I worked with more female talent. Thank you for noting that my roster is more men because it's something. When people ask me what I'm looking for, I'm like, I want a female I want I want

a female artist. I want UM. I don't know why it's so hard to find great new female talent. I don't know what the problem is. I've been looking. I've been I've been completely honest with you. I've been looking. I've been trying to find UM great female X to sign for me. I want. I want them to be artists that write their own music as well UM and

are pretty self aware. I think that I've come across a lot of talent that might have the right aesthetic, but not have you know, the substance or the feeler, or they don't really know who they are. And I'm not I'm not really trying to subscribe to any of that. UM. I don't think that that really cuts through. And I've seen I've seen a lot of female artists get distracted or confused by perception or celebrity, etcetera. And you have to really be a beast at it. You see the

best of the best in the marketplace, the superstars. They really are incredibly intelligent, have an incredible work ethic, and um work their asses off right and know when to listen. I know who they know who like who on their team are the people to listen to who when they need better people on their team? And I just think it's it's it's hard to find that now. Okay, so the next question here, But if anyone has anyone they want to bring something, please let me know because I

am actively looking for new female at Mr Borrow. Um Hi, I just want to echo at the other folks set and when and when you find the right man, he will be a very lucky man. So um I believe that. Um No, in all seriousness, you know you talked about well one thing Stevie, so I run Live Nation Japan. Um, we're talking to c A. Stevie Wonder is still worth fifty to sixty thousand tickets in that market and we're probably, I hope we're gonna do to say tom Arenas with

them in twenty nineteen. And wow, Um, that's like a dream come true for me to get to work with Stevie. Can't have a hit again. I'm sorry you can't have a hit again and you should come. Um yeah, you mentioned that the trouble of getting me goes to Europe, right, Um, what's happening in Asia right now is there's been this e d M revolution, which is still kind of happening. Japan is the most mature of the Eastern markets, and hip hop is all the rage there. However, these acts

can't really sell many hard tickets yet. UM. The biggest acts I'm not going to name, UM are worth about three thousand tickets. UM. Live Nation and Insomniac. I came from. Insomniac took an investment in the Rolling Loud Festival, which clearly you know all about will be there in Miami, the premier hip hop festival in the world. Right there's fifty sixty thousand people. Every hot hip hop artist plays it. We're trying to bring it to Asia. UM. We had

dates on hold. UM, We're gonna do it in multiple countries. UM. The artists weren't reasonable with their fees. UM. They were not. They were not. UM, and I think that's going to be a challenge. So I guess my question to you is, how how do you see the Asian market for hip hop? You know, I'm kind of like the Asian flag waiver at this conference. Um, because it is the panacea for

all of this. There's huge opportunity there, and it's disturbing to hear that everyone's coming back asking for a ton of money because again, I know, the mentality is to just hit a lip to just get a big check as opposed to thinking about really penetrating the market and the opportunity that exists there. And so it's again it's the education process. And I think that you know, sometimes your job is to be a translator, and um, it's about having the right people on the team that can

really translate for them. Why it makes sense. You know a lot of times at my company when it comes to some of the hip hop, the bigger hip hop acts that we have, I end up having to do everything because I can be a translator in some ways to get them to do things. But if there's if if anything is pertaining to me goes and then coming to come into the market, let me okay. But but I'll tell you I've heard about I've heard about certain

huge acts that have never come to Japan. Huge some of our biggest superstars here have not have not gone there, and I just think it's a a lack of understanding. Yeah, but I think that there would be an opportunity to get a few of the big managers together and to really walk them through it and educate them. And I think that would be the right next step. Okay, anybody else with a Mike there? Yeah, I got a quick

question for you. Um, there's no doubt the urban and hip hop rap side have have had such a direct pulse to the consumer more so than any other format. Right, it's it's it's mind bogging. I watched it with my own kids. Do you ever sit around and go, wow, I can't believe these other formats have not figured this out. Like when you said what you guys have been able to figure out and go, it's amazing they haven't figured that out, you know, from a strategic standpoint, right you

and like other genres of music. Yeah, when you sit another show like I can't believe that, you know, when you're sitting your strategy of media with other forms, you know, and they go they can't believe they have not figured this out. Right, And I'm not trying to get you know, the secret recipe at the best chocolate chip cookie, right, but you know what you know you said, like, I can't believe rock or whatever it is, they have not figured out this one thing to connect. Here's the thing.

I also I believe that's always just a matter of time. I'm not one of those people that's like, oh, this genre of music is dead or whatever. I think that that's all bullshit. I think that it's only a matter of time before music is music and reinvests itself, right, So, so I think that you just don't give up on it and you figure out what is connecting. I even think that when you think think about campaigns for artists,

like what is it that will connect the dots? And I think that as you think about other genres kind of have to dig deeper to figure out how to really make Speaking of that, is this country urban crossover? Is this a blip on the radar screen or a new trends? It's a new trend and I think it's real because we're looking at kids that might have come up listening to country music and also like like the

the fusion of the different genres, that's a real thing. Well, it's very interesting because I said, I think people are graziers. They know more things, and it's interesting. What it's seen is the most right wing of formats their audience has fans too. You see what's happening with Cain Brown, which has been amazing, right, but he's mixed kids singing country music and it's real, it's authentic to him. I think the other thing is like the bullshit meter is real, right,

you can't you can't fool kids. I've never been one of those people that believe like you dictate what's next, and you tell people what's next, they connect to what's real and authentic. And I think that we're seeing a lot more that pop up where people are um inspired by a lot of different kinds of music. They can infuse them and they create great music from that, and then it ends up cutting through and then we think it's like the biggest thing in the world. It's like, no,

someone just did what was real for them. Now, it's also interesting, you said earlier, or they're looking for female artists who are writers. Does this pretend the end of the record with fifteen writers. I wouldn't say that. I just know specifically for me when I when I when I've worked with artists who know who they are and know what they want to say, I feel like it goes further. So That's what I'm looking for. But as a publisher, do you think it's good, bad, or irrelevant

that there's so many writers on these records. Yeah, I mean definitely, because your your shares are getting cut down. When you have that many writers on one song, it's you're getting nothing really, you know what I mean, Like you might have two or three four cool, but when you have that many writers on, you're not really making ship, you know what I mean, You're really not You're really not.

I mean, you know for hip hop records, who I'll say this, there are a lot of people on these songs because you're seeing a lot of producers work together. Producers work together on tracks, but they end up with, you know, not a lot of percentage on their records. And again that's an education process. People don't really understand what it means. And at this point in time to what is it a hackney thing or is it still valid to have a guest appearance to boost a career.

You don't have to have it, you don't have to have it, But does it still work if you want to do that way? Definitely? Okay, any else in the back there, Marty, good afternoon, and um I do bleed orange being a Clemson guy. But for those of you who have never been to Athens, Georgia. You have to go. It's an amazing experience. UM, great rich music history and Atlanta and Athens are something to hold. So for you, anybody who's down in the Southeast to highly recommend go

check it out. UM. I think I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but i think you said something earlier about UM. Today, failure means giving up. So in the spirit of technology and connectibility and the fact that we're all connected. When you are evaluating an artist, do you consider an artist's resiliency UM with respect to their evaluation of talent? Is that something that you feel like you have to throw into the blender when you're That's a huge part of it,

huge part of how resilient you are. I mean, I've learned that in my own life and in my own career. But I've seen many examples of if you are resilient, if you can just push through, it will make all the difference. Eventually it connects. And you know, at this point, I've been in the business about twenty years now, right, and I've seen people that just never gave up, people that some people doubt it and never thought would ever

make it, or ever have a hit. There some people who should give up, right And you know, I think people who should give up are the peop that are only motivated by the fucking fame. That's the truth. If you don't, if you're not really motivated by your love and passion for the music, you can tell the difference,

you know what I mean. And also if you're only motivated by the money, if you're only motivated by the money and you don't operate with any level of ethics in this business, I want you out this ship too, you know what I mean? Like that, because you're really kind of, um, disrespecting our world. Because you have to have a respect for the music. I think that we've suffered from a lot of people that don't have a respect for music and the gift of music. And I have a huge regard for it. So I want to

see more people in it that do as well. And I think that, um, everything is coming full circle. But yes, resiliency is a big part of this. You've been utterly fat. Okay, I don't want to wear it out. Okay you I'll let you be the wrangler here, Jim. Okay, great talk, Thank you very much. I'm a bloody foreigner. I arrived in this country three years ago and I wasn't aware, and I didn't even understand structural racism. Coming here was

mind blowing to see how that works. I mean, you're talking to a room that is almost exclusively white right now. Then I went into the Black Panther movie on the day came out because I was so stoked by the soundtrack. I got into that theater and I was almost exclusively the only white person in that movie, which was a revelation. That movie was amazing and a celebration in itself. Now, how do you see now it crossed like one point two billion dollars on the box office. How do you

how do you foresee ripple effects of that movie? What did it do? It created opportunities for other movies to be created around black culture, et cetera. But also I think it brought together a lot of people in the sense so for me one of them. I mean I could talk about Black Panther all day because I told my parents I was like, Wakanda was supposed to be Ethiopia. They sucked it up anyway, But um, I think that what they created with that piece of art is what

I I thought would happen with music. I thought that there would be an artist that would create a great song or a great body of work that would connect people in the same way. And I think that Black Panther the film really brought together all people, you know what I mean, all kinds of people, all ethnicities, and allowed people to connect and respect, you know, our culture.

And it was based in love. When you want to Kanye wants to talk about love, that film felt like it was based in love and the idea of bringing bringing people together in that way. Um. I thought music, I thought there would be a musical artist or someone that would create our that would connect people, but it ended up being that film that that did it. And um, I think it's the beginning of seeing other art forms that can bring all people together without making people feel alienated.

Because you may have been in a theater with with all black people, but I was in Westwood at I Pick and I was like the only Black person in there with a bunch of white people, and I was I was happy about it because I got to see other cultures watching the film too, appreciating it. So and one more question, Jim Hey, I was interested in the the correlation as you see. But you know, ticket sales and visiting markets and and you said about not being big because you have a following, but we all know

what global success means. And you know back in the nineties, uh, it was of course a different world. But to actually make I'm from Sweden, so so to to get the great artists of I was working on face records and law and all these records, bringing these artists in and

to have a presence. I think it's still as important, but it's it's so hard to connect with the audience and get the ticket sales now, as the gentleman from Live Nation told us, because there is no presence and there's his song song song songs, so what as a you know, your motime, But it's do you know what what does the Universal do to promote these acts in foreign countries and how do they support bringing them over these days? I have no clue. And it's like I

think it's really connected. Yeah, I mean I think I touched on it a little bit before because the global global marketing and supporting our acts around the world is like a huge priority for US um and I can tell you we come up with campaigns and plans that are about each territory. And you know, we have marketing people that really talk about what's happening in each territory and I hold them responsible for making sure they know how to impact that artists in each territory. And it's

not the same campaign for each artists. You know, I expect them to know what will penetrate which artists is the right person to collaborate with the local artists. They're like, they have to know the touch and field of each X. But the global aspect of it all is very important us and we work with each territory to come up with the plans for our X. I'll tell you at the top of this year. And we do this like two or three times a year. We go around the world.

I went to Sweden, I went to France. I went to London with Steve and our head of international and we presented all our top priorities for the year and we talked about the plans for each of those X and you know, in each office, we went to Spotify offices, et cetera, and we talked about what our rollout and they came to us with ideas and I mean, it's a huge priority for us huge Ethiopia, You're incredibly charismatic.

As I say, I think you're gonna have to check man on a regular basis because they're drawn to you. But this has really been fabulous. I opening. I'm sure everyone's agreeing with me that we've learned so much here today. Thanks so much, Thank you for having than that wraps up this week's episode of The Bob Left Sets podcast with executive extraordinaire Ethiopia Have to Marry Him President of Motown Records, Recorded live in Santa Barbara only a month ago.

She's a force of nature. Look out for her in the future. Until next time, I'm Bob Left. Sez can think of me reads don't know me? Exact must be out, don't se