Derek Shulman

How did that come together? It came together actually from my son at who um has been bugging me since he was born actually about uh, he's uh in his mid thirties. Uh, not having seen his father actually be uh person on the stage and having seen me on the other side of the business, and knowing that I was a musician before I was I joined the dark side of the business, as it were. And in the last few years he's been seeing videos of me back

in the day forty plus years ago. And he said, why, and it's bizarre that the fan base that we had has grown exponentially. Um, you know it was it was kind of a smallish, cultish fan base, but it's grown exponentially on the internet. And he said, you should really do a a reunion of some kind. I said, Noah, his name is Noah. Uh, that's not going to happen. Here's I've been all far. I thought, you do do that kind of stuff. But he said, so you've got

a lot of fans, let's try this out. And I said, go for it if you want to, and in fact he got. He put the word out to the to the fan base out there, and he had hundreds of people sending their versions of proclamation. And he convinced me finally to sing a line or two and the other guys in the band who were alive, which general they are except for our our drummer who passed away at First Bubber quite a few years ago, to to include our own little piece in the in the video. So

we did that. He put it together, my brother Ray mixed the audio, and now I put this video up and in in fact, Proud Magazine got involved and said this, this is great. We love this and and now it's

got a lot of views. And uh, it's kind of interesting that that my band which I left and we we broke up forty years ago, it's probably more um well known if you like it, and more sort of uh have have a bigger base when we did when we were going at at the time, so it's it's kind of bizarre, but it was his idea and he put it together. And my brother Ray, who does a lot of audio stuff for a lot of other bands five point one mixes, he did the the audio mixes,

which which was damned difficult by the way. So I just said, yes, sounds like a good idea. So I'm not gonna take any credit for it. Okay, why do you think your audience is so large and larger than it was forty years ago? Lots of lots of answers to that question. I think that um that it's gonna sound rite and it's gonna sound uh, I hope not pretentious. But I think the music held up it was it was music which was authentic. It was music that m

I we did for ourselves. Rather than following a lead or following another band and saying, let's play like this, we were a band that put our own selves together and put a band, put our backgrounds and our loves of what kind of music influences together and became gentle giant. I mean, obviously I came from a I started being in a band in the mid sixties when I was at school, so we we went through a lot of

a lot of things. But I think that I think that the music held up and has held up because it's um I hate to use the word that it sounds like a pretentious word, but it's not. It has has It really does have authenticity and and it doesn't sound like anyone else. We did never try to sound

like anyone else. Of course, we all had influences personally of what we loved, and we draw dragged in those influences into the band, and the band those influences were started to a part if you like, and became gentle giant okay uh today, and I know everybody hates being labeled general giant was certainly seen as prog rock. Prog rock has a bad name in general. In addition, rock is not dominating the church. Is this a past say style? Were? Is there room for prague rock in today's world? Bob?

You know what, We never considered ourselves trag or or or rock, yes, but prague. No. We just did what we did, and luckily and thankfully we did. We were We put our band together at a time when there was no titling there was no chiron saying this is a kind of band you are. We were just a band that put our music again, are our influences and are who we were together? And um we made music that we enjoyed, and we pushed ourselves musically, uh, personally

for each other. Um. And then we when we pushed ourselves musically for each other, we took it on stage and hopefully one or two people would show up and pay money, and we make a living for it. So being labeled as a progue rock band, I don't think we ever considered what we were. We were rocked because we had we enjoyed rocking. We are our backgrounds. My backgrounds certainly is in R and B and blues and everything else, and my brothers was in classical etcetera, etcetera.

But as far as being uh relevant today, it for me it doesn't really matter. I don't care. But obviously the way I've seen it, uh and the way that what's transpired on the internet, it seemsonally it seems to be um a little more relevant today than it used

to be actually in a strange way. And because it's interesting to see the the who sent in the music two for this video which you mentioned, and I would say three cores, if not seven eighths of the people that sent in their musical pieces who were were people who are are under thirty. So we're not talking about all farce going back and saying, you know, trying to pick up the guitars and they're authritis getting in the

way of them playing their their instruments. It was young people listening to the music we made and enjoying it and and and enjoying it for a reason. And I guess the reason was because it was relevant to them. So I don't know if it's answering a question or giving you an answer, but um, past I I don't think so. I think that if it's it's the it's the same as it It's the same as great jazz, it's a great it's the same as great um dance music, is the same as great musical, great classical music. It

stands the test of time. And I think from what I see, I hope that our music has that stood

the test of time. Um, which for me is kind of bizarre because I, as you know, I joined the dark side of the business issue as we just as you just introduced me to uh, and the interesting thing that I've discovered and no, and really it's very very interesting to me because, as you know, we've talked over the years about what this businesses and who we are and how we are how we get along in this crazy world of ours, and right now it's the craziest time, um,

having done most things in the business. If you like, what people come back to, and this is me personally, what people will come back to for me is the music. It's not about the business. It's not about record sales. It's not about who's bigger who's not. It's not about you know, all the other means of hearing, the streaming and this that, the other tiktoks and and it's etcetera. It's about the music. And when people talk to me, it's not about bon Jovi or or or or slip

Not or Pantera or whatever. It's about what I did when I was a musician. And that's very heartening for me. Actually. Okay, so how did you decide to give up being a musician and go to the side. Well, that's another story again because as I explained to you prior, um the General Giant. We started the General Giant in but I started my first group and when I was at school in nineteen sixty six. Uh, and that was an incredible period, I have to say. Uh. My first group was a

group called Sigma Dupre and the Big Sound. I was at school, my brother was at school. My older brother was a school teacher. We put a band together and we we loved R and B and blues and everything else like most of the other classic rock bands of today did. And we went on the road. And even though we were I was at school, we went on the road and worked nine days a week, literally getting a fan base and eventually having a couple of very

big hits. Um. Those hits became uh, We're We're good for us in certain respects, but became a millstone around our next because we were expected to be a pop band and stay in the same groove. So I decided, we decided, I'll give you a long story and if if, if it's too long, if it's too long, keep going.

So um in nine, when we broke the first band uf um, it was a decision that we were studied by the fact that we were a pop band and that and that really stopped his uh, you know, doing something new and when we were playing to a an audience who are eating scampionships, you know, and waiting for the hits. That really kind of got to me more than anyone. So I said, we don't want to do this anymore. Thankfully, we had a manager. And this is

back in the day when managers believed in musicians. M We had a manager that undertook to UH finance a new project that we said we want to put together UM. And his name was Jerry Braun and I give him full credit for this. Uh. He put money into our pocket for weekly monthly salaries because he believed in us as musicians. So we found three other musicians This is myself and my two our other brothers who we want

who we wanted to do something again new. We didn't know what it was, but it was wasn't going to be what we were. We wanted to be the antithesis of this pop thing which we got out of UM and other bands were doing at the very same time that I mentioned, UH, you know, bands like the Move, the Idol, Race, Moody Blues, Oh boy, there's that. So at that period of time, the mid sixties to the latest to the late sixties and the seventies, all in England. It was an incredible time and just I can't, I

can't describe how amazing it was. And then from the in the mid early mid seventies, everything's changed, but it was in UK where it was. It was so element and so obvious. Anyway, so we became gentle giant. We took about six six months in rehearsals and we found this keyboard player called Carrie men Here who was a recent graduate of the Royal Academy of Music in composition actually, and Gary Green, who was a real blues player. I mean he was you know, we came in whiled away at.

In fact, he was the very first we we we we interviewed wed I don't know how many guitarists, maybe thirty five, forty, and he was the very first one that said can I tune up? So he got he got a kind of a gold star next to his name, and we went to a couple of drubbers. But the bottom line is so we we spent about six or nine months recording, rehearsing and writing and putting this band together and putting our first and then going into the studio and I think November of nine seventy with Tony

Visconti as this group called Gentle Giant. Uh. And it was really an amalgam of different kinds of music, a different kind of influences that we came from and and and our new found friends slash um band members. That became what Gentle Giant became. And it was a really kind of the birth of a realization. If you like, that's the first song of a song called Giant, and that was where we were, and that was the first, um the first recording of the ten year tenor career

of a bigger Gentle Giant. Yes, but we're leading up to the question, how did you decide to pack it in as a musician? Oh, yes, you did say that well as a musician in UM so was all, wow, was this amazing? And then we went through his again. Bands go through this bands bands, and I think everyone goes through a seven generations of band. If you like, you're born, you're born, you're an ada lesson you come, you become a young adult, you become an adult, become

middle aged, you become older, and you become old. We became a little old towards the late seventies and I just felt it creatively and even um the passion of going out in front of the crowd. And I remembered the last tour, the idea of going out and playing the songs and recording. It was a whole It was a whole sort of cycle of things. You record, you rehearse,

your tour, your record, your rehearse, you tour. And and as I said, that's what I brought up, my my prior, a gentle giant life if you like, because I've done it for fifteen years. And I remembered that we were touring the USA again and playing Peoria or Wayne Wayne Indiana or fourt Way Indiana should they say. And then in these kind of places held no no, um, no

sort of excitement for me. And when something feels like a job, and it felt like we are going out on a job, it really kind of feels like it's time to stop. And I would say this to anyone, no matter what your job is. And I know most people cannot do this, but the fact, the fact that a creative person would go out and say, oh God, we have to tour again, and okay, we have to

get together in Buffalo and play the Buffalo gig. You know, it was like, do we have to Yes, I guess we have to do it because we have to make a living. But when when you feel that way in the creative world, that's the time to stop because you're not being creative. You're not you're not using any passion. It's it's like clocking in and clocking out. And that's I kind of knew it, and I think some of

the other members knew that. It was like, Okay, it feels like we're doing the same thing over and over again unless we did something completely different, which I don't think we were able to do. Other bands of our ill like Yes and Genesis, were they were able to take their music into a pop direction. We never could. So we felt like a job. And when it feels like a job, we said that's it. Time to stop, and we did. Okay, Well, was everybody on the same page.

How long did it take to come to this conclusion? As you say, you've been doing it fifteen years and you're only thirty years old. Um, yeah, Two or three

of the band came to the same conclusion. A couple of the other guys were not of the same opinion, but nevertheless, it was you know what, what I didn't want to do, and what what I never want to do, and what I think my brothers I never want to do, and perhaps that the other guys in the band want to do and wanted to do has become a parody of who you were and who you are and to rehash the same things that you're doing over and over again.

So you know, it was a chapter. It was a fantastic chapter, and they all are pieces of life, but it was not something I wanted to go out and do the same thing. And when if you again, when it feels like a job, when it feels like you're clocking in and clocking out in the creative world, for me, you know, for me, it didn't work and I had to stop. When you did stop, did you already have it in your mind what you were going to do next? Or you just said I can't do this anymore, Bob,

I had no clue. I had absolutely no clue. I knew I didn't want to do that any I mean, I knew I didn't want to do the circus of touring and this and that the other that I knew I had the opportunity to to record, to be a producer, that didn't tackle my fancy either. I mean, I enjoyed being in the studio and working with the guys, but that really had no interest for me either. To be locked into a room twenty seven which had no darkness. So for a year or so I had no clue.

I was lost, to tell you the truth. And then a friend of mine, well, just to stay there. Since you were on the road to earn a living for did you have enough money to not work for a year? Believe it a lot, Thankfully I did. It's it's great to say this, but we were lucky, I guess lucky in the respect that um I took on the mantel halfway through the seventies of becoming the Sequaisi manager uh and and and the guy that understood what it took on the other side of the defense, as well as

being part of the band. In retrospect um, it's a mistake. It was a mistake because you lose on one side because you're not you're you're in the band, so you can't give a real objective viewpoint on that big a manager. At the same time you're in the band, so you can't give your attributes to being creative However, what it did was give set me up for what I did next in in a in a way that I think, um,

did you know? Did me? Okay? So I was able to make sure that the band had enough money again because I was looking after the bunnies coming in for the group, that we all shared it equally and I knew where it was as opposed to going in other people's pockets. So yes, I was able to get along and not work per se if you like, for a year or so and wonder what the hell I was gonna do. However, you know, after a year and a half or whatever it was gonna get it was gonna

get haired. So thankfully, um, So to answer you a question that that's exactly what it was. But I got a call from a friend um in New York who I knew from UK. He was a head of PolyGram International, who worked for Prisonless Records, who he was sign two back in the day, and he said, have you ever thought about joining you know, a record company? And that was like an asthma to me. You know, what are

you talking about? That's the enemy. But in certain respects um as you as you as you put it, so so uh you know clinically, Um, I had to make a living. So I thought, well, you know, let me let me see, let me give it a shot. So I went up to New York. I was living in California at the time, which I hated by the way. Um, and went up to New York and got offered a job as a promotion man of all things and an artist development, but promotion primarily. Um, but that's a grind

being a radio promotion person. Well, the reason I was hired, to tell you the truth, was because the guy who was who hired me, Jerry Jassy, and operated to him. Um, he what the reason? Why are they? And this is again getting back to the prior lifetime if you like, It was because two of my biggest fans are the biggest fans of the group, were Lee Abrams and Jeff Pollock.

And Lee Abrams, of course, as you probably know, was a consultant to one of the biggest radio station consultants, and he was a big fan and and and Jeff had had another consultancy for radio. And I guess Jerry thought, boy, I think if Derek can get to him, then then we're all set. Well, of course that didn't work, but nevertheless, I think that's why I got the gig um. But thankfully, I said, very quickly into something which I enjoyed more,

was amusing. But that's the reason, to tell you the truth, the reason why I got the gig in the first place. Okay, so then it transmogrifies into the music. What does that look like? Well, it was. It was interesting because having been on the road and been a musician, I knew a lot of the musicians and bands and everything else. So a lot of people, managers and managers especially, would come in and go to the A and R department. At that time, PolyGram was kind of a bit of

a mess. It was like it was they were still trying to put Phillips and and and Seamens together to make a real company. And in certain respects it was kind of like a free for all and it was there was no real sort of top down leadership. It was more for me inside, and there was a group of us saying, let's let's let's make this company. Let's do something interesting here. And there was there was already

a cattle. It was already a few bands in the in the in the roster like kiss like uh def Leppard, etcetera. There were just bubbling under and Um I was again Jerry Brown, who was my manager at at for Gentle Giant, UM came in with my very first A and R thing, if you like, was he came with a new Ura Heat record. He didn't go to the A and R department. He went came to me said, Derek, do you think you can uh, you know you can convince and anyone that's worth putting out. I said, let me hear it.

And they had a couple of songs on the album, uh It's One song was called That's the Way that It Is and the other song was called on the Rebound, And I said, I think this could do well, And in fact I helped them get a deal with the fact that song became a decent science kit and put them on the road again to being a a band that was kind of meaningful in the US and sold quite a lot of records. So that maybe think about segging into the A and R world, which I did

very quickly. Said since then, so I started promotion but effectively went into A and R virtually straight away. I mean the six months a year I was in A and R. But I still retained my you know, my radio, people with friends and everything else. So you know, I was able to do all these things at the same time,

knowing the bands and musicians and everything else. The one thing that one, the one thing I just remembered was as is that the bands and the artists of the managers who came and would remember me from the road because I was. I was on the road until a year or two ago prior to that, and they knew that they couldn't say, well, you don't know what it's like to do this, or here we are doing this because I, yes, I I didn't know what it's like. I knew it was like to sleep in a van.

I knew there was like to live in a to to fly in concorde. I knew it was like to sleep on the floor before a gig. So the one thing I had going for me, and I think those managers and musicians appreciated the fact that I didn't come from a world where where I was just hanging out backstage wishing I was on the stage. Um, so I think I could relate to the managers and artists in a way that most other people couldn't. Okay, so how did that lead to after You're Rye Heap what came next?

I believe it or not, bon Jovin, So tell us the story of bon Jovi. Well, that was a that was the first literally the first signing as a quote A and R man that I had, And in fact it's the man. The attorney of bon Jovi at the time was a guy based in Philadelphia. And I've heard a song on w A p P called Runaway. You know, that was running at the same time as as as I. You know, I was listening to that and and I heard this song run Away, and that's the point, that's

that sounds great. And somebody introduced me to whoever it was John Boovi, who was totally bon Jovi's second cousin, who was at the power station he recorded. A guy called Arthur Man. He was an attorney, and he said, you've heard I've heard, You've heard you like this song Runaway. Can I bring us the demos? And he said, I said sure, by all means. So he brought four demos to me and he said John is great. Um, he's putting a band together, um and um. I listened to

the demos and I said they sound pretty good. But I really like runaway. I'd like to meet John. And so I did, and he was. He was like, no, not too many other people I've met in my life. This is prior to him putting his band together. He's still putting the band together. Um. I think that Dave Sabo we just left, and I think Richie was just coming in. Um. But John I met, and UM, I've never seen anyone as young been so focused and driven. I mean, we're talking about someone who, uh it was

very It was a novice. He's still working at the power station, sweeping forward, so he said, which he wasn't. By the way, Um, there's a lot of bubbles to birst here. So uh, first away he was he was. He was as a synecure. He was, he was. He was playing around with the board when told he was looking, etcetera, etcetera. But nevertheless, Um, he got his job from his second cousin. John was was one of the most driven people I've

ever met in my life, even as a kid. Um. And he said, I want you to meet my mom and dad. So I went to Seaville, New Jersey and met his mom and dad. Uh, and I did, and I said, and they said look, if you're interested in working with John, please take care of them. That's and they really did. And And why do you think he wanted you to meet his parents? Because I think he believed in me, and I think he wanted to make

sure his parents felt the same way. And and and you know, I believed in in John as a personality, as a person that was completely driven to be the b He already believed he was going to be bigger than Elvis. And that was after one song Runaway. And anyone who has that confidence and you look at someone whose eye, you look at someone in the eye and say, are they bullshitting me or not? He was not bullshitting me.

I knew that instinctively. I know that. And he wanted to be the biggest And I thought, if he wasn't that bad and he's that driven, I wanted to be part of this um. So he was. He putting the band together, and then a couple of showcases for me and and the department. You know, one of one or two of them weren't that great, but you can see that John was. John had an appeal obviously for girls. I mean, he's a good looking kid with with hair to the Max and Richie Sambora came in as was

a great double act for him. You you always have the yin yang on stage, so Richard became the sort of yang of John's ying. Uh, and we we signed to a deal. Okay, How hard was it to convince the label? If at all? Not that hard? Well, not that hard. I mean, I don't think there was. It was a raw ra let's go for its going to be massive, but I I felt it was and I stuck with them, and I knew it possibly could be. Okay, were you bidding against anybody else or was problem? No?

I think there was interest in in Atlantic, some kind of interest, but really not really anyone. And I don't one thing I've never done in my life actually to tell you what is go bit against it. I never would build a bit against anyone else. If that goes on, I'm out. I don't do that. That's not what I do, because then you're in a situation where your dad if

you do, adapt if you don't. And the bottom line is you if you're bidding, people are gonna look at you with a microscope and say, see I told you so. That would never have worked for me, And and thankfully. Most of the bands you've took you discussed that. I can talk about other ones, and some of them are big, big stiffs, but I won't talk about those. But they've been generally bands that have been overlooked or under later or whatever it is that no one really else is interested.

And I saw their potential and you know it, having come from my musical background, if you like, I've been lucky enough to you know, on the scale of for success in the failure. There's been plenty of failures, but success is of weight a little more, and I've been able to make a living. Okay, So you signed bon Jovie.

What's the next step in terms of making music? Putting the album together and then having going into the studio with with Um, with Tony and and uh lads Quinn who was the engineer, and putting the first album together with Runaway as the first single, and it did fairly well. But the most important thing, I think at the same

time was getting Doc McGee involved. And that's another story itself, doc Uh, and I know that there's lots of history and lots of history written and rewritten and everything else. Doc what came into my office at the very same time that I was looking at bon Jovi as as a potential signing, and he was. He was managing Pat Travers at the time and trying to get the band

of the labeled interest in Pat Travers. But I saw Doc and again I saw someone who went to each office and worked every office like they were the main company, like they were they were running the company. As a boy, this guy is a smart dude. He's he's he goes into every office and makes everyone feel like they had their kingship. And so he came into my office and he said, yeah, Pat Travis, And I said, Doc, you know, Pat's great, But I mean, what who else you're working with?

I think it was some R and B artists. I've thought this artist called bon Jovi and he's about to make a record, I want you to meet him. And at the same time, there was a couple of other managers who were sniffing around, David krebs and and John Share. But I wanted Doctor meeting because I saw how he was working every office and making them feel like they were they were running the company. And that was important

for me. If I was party, party, party to do party to this whole thing, it's a very bizarre thing. And I'm telling you that the truth, the sort of truth of what's happened, what happens in what what happened back in the day of how you had to work inside as well as outside. I had John meet with with Doc and it was love at first sight or first first meeting, and they came to a deal. He had to meet the parents as well, and Doc man.

It was the first manager a bon Jovi and the first thing he did was say, do the album, but get your ass on the road because right now you look like a little girl with with with with you know, your purple type leather pants on. So he put them on the road with the rat and Scorpions and god

knows what else is. And and to tell you the truth, he was fantastic and he put them on the road with bands that he want that he wanted and we wanted John and bon Jovi to be the band that with a rock with the great pop music and to learn how to work that audience. So he was very instrumental in in making Bone over the what they became. Okay, so you make the first record you have runaway, you re release in a better fashion now talk. The second record.

The second record was was a sophomore kind of flop, if you like, in certain respects because they had to read. They had to write new songs. That you know, John and the band had written some of the songs probably over like the last ten years, so they had to write some new songs. And we had to decide who we would record and and produce it. Lance Quinn, who had worked at the power station. Uh, he was there and on the first record, he said, let's record it

in Philadelphia. So we did. And to tell you the truth, it was a bit of a disaster. Um, it was really very the atmosphere was awful. Of songs were not quite as good as the first album. And um it was it was an okay album, but it you know, but it was not a great album. And and but nevertheless it did okay. It was seventy degrees Paralyite, which I never agreed with the title. It was an awful title.

The you know, the boiling point of I don't know was John the boiling point of of of stone or something? I don't know. Actually, to tell you the truth, it was not my idea. Again, it was neither. It was like John's John the vision, but the the recording was a terrible process. And in fact I had a kind of firelands and that was a process process it itself. UM, and and get it finished by by Tony actually um and Tony Tony by Tony Bongiovi to mix it Um who didn't want to do it, but he did because

he got point. But it was it was not a very pleasant experience, Um. But it did the trick in fact, in that he kept him out there and John and Doc kept him out there working. It wasn't a stiff it was. It was an okay second album. It was a software kind of slumpy record, but he kept him out there. And then and then we reassembled if you if you were talking about bon Jovi's career, okay, we

we reassembled ourselves again after the touring. And I you know, I got to know um, Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock from from listening to a couple of albums and Bob I was a fan of My health grew again goes back to fans and groups and musicianship and everything else. And they were they I think they just don't love a boy and Honeymoon Sweet, and I listened to those records, and I thought, boy, they have a great sound, and also the choruses and everything else were fantastic and everything else.

At the same time, John and Doc and the band knew that to go to the next level they needed to have number one, a great producer, Number two songs that would cut through the midst of the cut through the world of rock radio and ao R radio or whatever that meant. At the same time, MTV was was the the big the big knocker in the house. Um so I another story. So um I said, boy, you know John, would you you would you think? What do you think about getting someone to write songs with you?

And John being the pragmatist that he is and being the driven person that they would do most things to make sure he got there. He sa fine, who are you thinking? Are you thinking about? And I said, well, I got introduced to this guy, Desmond Child by paulse Alie and Jean Simmons who did who? And I had learned like the year before they wrote Lick It Up. And I said, that's our kiss song, that's and I and and and Paula. Jean said, you remember Desmond Child rouge.

I said, yes, we were on Capitol together. Anyway, these stories intertwined. This is great. So I said, this guy, Desmond Child apparently is really good because kiss you know, Paul and Jean have told me that he's a great songwriter. Why didn't you guys get together? And he said, fine,

no problem, let's let's introduce me. So that we did, and they got together and they wrote songs together, and I think, so I'll just say the rest is history because I wrote Living on a Prayer, you give love a bad name, bad medicine, you know, etcetera, etcetera, and bon Jovi and they went into the studio in Vancouver with Bruce Fairburne and Bob Rock and Mike Fraser being on tape off and they built the following despite the fact that they were still, you know, on the road

with all these other bands supporting it. The one thing that John was never afraid of, the band was never afraid of, was playing. They toured and toured and they that was the key. They didn't they didn't let up. They knew that they had to continue to build their fan base, not just in North America, all over the world. Um. So putting all these elements together, um as soon as the album was done. Okay, the album was in an easy process. And two did you realize what you had?

First question? Easy process? Yes, it was. It was the most It was the easiest process we had. And and and we we knew absolutely when it came when when the album was mastered, absolutely hundred percent knew that this we had it. We had something. This is going to be a big, big, big hit. I knew it. We all knew it. And then what you know, there's a famous story that they had two key in the original covers. Did you worked at the label? What was the story there? Well,

that's true, that's that's the fact. Actually we you know that was there's a lot of that. We had all the all the other people involved in in in the company wanted to be part of this success. So we I don't know who decided that this girl with a pink bikini that ripped off was a great idea for the title cut for the album cover, and we thought, boy, this is not a rock band. This is like I mean, you want Billy's Choaties to go down the tubes, this

is even better. Um So actually John and and John was the one that said, holy ship, we can't do this. At the same time, there's about fifties to sixty thousand units already pressed up in the in the plant. So we held everything and to tell you to be honest, John and Dog said, stop the presses. We have to get a new a new cover. And John and I think Martin Weiss when this this it went into their little studo and John said, let's get it um a

plastic garbage bag and I'm gonna spray. The three went wet on this garbage has put my finger across it. Take a picture of that. That's the cover, and all power to him because it was his idea and we had to change things in the right and midstream, and that became the cover. I thank god it did, because the other one is a disaster or would have been looked at despite the fact that music inside the the LP as it was then it was great, but it would have been viewed viewed like um, something we didn't

want the band to be. So yes that that happened just as it was about to be released. Thankfully, we put the brakes on right over the last second as far as the the visuals were concerned. And I think the first song out was bad name. I believe it was, and then Living on a Prayer was the second our second track of them. Okay, so a little bit slower. What happened you put out the record? Is it react immediately? What's it like being at the belly of the beast

through the roof? I mean it was, it was there were there are times in your life you know there there's we all know there are there are there are peaks and valleys. Uh and and I just remember number one here in this album and knowing I knew that this was it. I knew it. And when you heard it on the radio and you saw it on MTV, we got Wayne uh oh, the videographers Uh anyway, the guy who who does all the best videos to do the video which looked like it was on you know,

he was it was. It was playing in front of twenty thousand people when he was already playing in front of two thousand if if that when he when he was doing it, the video looked amazing. The song went on the radio, it immediately became a gigantic hit immediately, and the album just blew into number one. It was just it was it was like it was like something that you you rarely see it in your lifetime, and

it was. It was a spectacular time for everyone, for the company, for the band, for Dark and everyone else. And to tell you the truth, for me because I believed in him as as someone who wanted this so badly. I knew he had the potential of talent to do what he wanted to do and and to see it through with other people helping him. So you know, again, it was wasn't just John, although John is an incredible

quick learner, and boy does he ever. You know, he's like a sponge who who takes it in and become it becomes him. But he had all these other people behind him to make this probably one of the biggest albums uh rock albums of all time. Okay, now agiven At this time, the A and R people had a piece of the record. Did you have a piece of bon Jovi's records? Yes? I did? Okay, that's great. You still you you still get paid on him? I No, I don't, because I know I don't. I wish I did. Boy,

that was you know. I'm not sure I could be locked down somewhere else, I guess in a cruise ship. No I don't, But at that time, yes I did. I was why did the royalties end because I quit the company? Okay, so it was only long you were there. Okay. At the same time, you're working with Cinderella. How do you get Cinderella? Uh? Cinderella was another man from the Philadelphia area, New Jersey, Philadelphia area. UM. I think it was introduced to me by again the same manager at

the same same agent. But again John Uh you Tom Keefer again, these things input into twined and I can't put his hind lines. It's very mud put time lines in between who said what, when and whatever? But I remembered Uh. And Larry Maser, who was a manager, contacted me and said, boy, you did a great job with bon Jovi. This I've got this band, Cinderella, and I've heard about them because Arthur Man, the the Philadelphia lawyer, said there's got another great band out of the area.

I went down to see Cinderella in a little club. I camera what the club was, and they weren't that good. To tell me the truth, Tom was fantastic. Tom was an incredible front man, and Uh and Jeff I think it was a good guitarist was great. But the other two guys, I but they didn't hold up. I said, Larry, you know you've got someone in the front there. That's great, but you have to replace the other two guys. And I've heard And at the same time he gave me Tom's I don't know how many uh demos he did.

There must have been at least seventy five demos. I mean we're talking about I mean prolific writer. Um. And I listened to the demos and I would say thirty of those were worthy to put on an album. First album. So I said to Larry, put a great band together, and I'll put I'll give you a deal, um. And he found two other players that fitted the mold that I think we're worthwhile for Tom to front, and I did the deal. There was no one else involved. I mean,

it was almost like me doing something side unseen. But I listened to the music that Tom was writing and put put. I signed the band to PolyGram and got Andy John's of all people, to to produce that album, which was a treat in itself to say the least. But that was that was another that's another story, um.

But anyway, that first album, I think it was nice songs. Um. At the same time, then bon Jovis slippery, and what was was was higher charts that came out literally a little time after uh some people and wet and blasted into the charts as well. So I was, you know, I had two of the two of the top five albums that I discovered. I was. I was hosh yet. Okay, A couple of questions. Anyone ever debate the name Cinderella. Did Keifer come with Cinderella? I think it was yeah.

I think it was yeah. I think it was Key forer And and Larry, you know, And I didn't dispute. I think I thought it was fine. I thought you could play around with it, you could play around with the the visuals. I mean we did on thee the first couple of videos. They were funny, they were there were you know, they were kind of like um. In fact, I got John involved in one of the videos. Again, this is the old MTV time when when it was just was breaking a record, was getting on MTV and

getting on the radio, and then you're after the races. Boy, that was the time when the jigsaw puzzle was five pieces, not five thousand. Well put okay, there was never really another Cinderella album. What happened there? So they had, They had nice songs, and they had the follow up, which is that did well to an Accountmber the damn name I wish I could. That was they had two really big, big albums and then um, I left, I left Polygraphs to run actual uh and and they they still continued

their career. John of course he went on too. He went to the New Jersey. Okay, but a couple of questions. They said that Tom lost his voices. That true, that was probably after you were there, Probably that was, yes he did. Yeah, I'm still friends with Tom. Tom's a great guy. I mean, he really is a wonderful guy and a real talent. And and the truth is that we were we we locked onto the MTV hair thing where and Tom Brady was a blueser and then he re loved he loved Louse and the whole sort of

the blues thing. But yes, he said he lost his voice, his um his he had nodules on his his um vocal cords for quite a period of time he was living in Nashville. They told me that he said he was afraid that he wouldn't be able to sing, but he got them back and then he's still in a great voice, which I'm happy about. Were you were you still a PolyGram when they made Newton bon Jovi made New Jersey. I was literally walking out the door when

he was making New Jersey. Okay, from my viewpoint, I love Slippery when wet, but bon Jovi, in my viewpoints, never equaled that. And I bought I even bought New Jersey when it came out. Was disappointed. Do you have any inside it? Once again, do you believe you were the special sauce? What was going on? Boy? But that's if if I thought that, then then uh, you know, if I think that or thought that in any form in any way, you know, then somebody shoot me in

the head for God's sake. Um. No, you know, I was certainly intrinsic, I really was. But everyone it wasn't just me. It was a company, it was Dark, it was it was the agent, it was John himself, it was a band, it was everything. Um. But certainly we had a chemistry together to make Slippery as as big and as good as it was. Uh. When I left, I mean, you know, I left maybe there was a little lack of you know, in intimacy with a label. I don't know, I mean I can't say for sure.

Maybe John was getting a little uh bored. I mean he's working his ass off. I mean they do it. They were, They toured and toured, but I was there when they started it. But I wasn't ready there when they finished. I was my My next step was was well before we get your next step? Uh, when they

would be making these records. Since you were a musician and you have experience, to what degree did you weigh in on the material in the studio not only say yes or thumbs up, her thumbs down, say well, you know, should we change this, should we try this? I actually did uh quite a lot on on some albums, not so much the bunge of the ones, because I was.

I was there in the studio for sure in Vancouver with with I mean Bruce Fairburn there was a great was a great musician, and Bob Rockett himself as a great musician. You know, I'd listened to certain things and they say what do you think? What do you think? I wasn't one of the the pipe up and say I think you should do this, because you know, we had enough talent in the room to to h to know what was best and and uh and say yes or

no to. However, with Cinderella, I was a little more proactive, but in both their live show and as well as writing UM and when they to give you an insight about live when Cinderella first went out, because their record came out and they weren't really a live band yet, and suddenly they became. They were all over MTV, they were all over the radio, and had never done real gigs. They played played a few club shows of Ladelphia, and they went out there and I can't remember who they

went out with, but they weren't very good. And I went back to Larry and went back to the band and said, you have to videotape every damn show and take them back to your back. Take to take them back to the bus and watch these shows and ask yourself, will you pay twenty dollars to see this band? Watch it? You've got to watch this. And I have to say they took it to heart, and they watched themselves and said, boy, I made a mistake there, that that was that that

choreography was awful. I should be doing this instead of that. UM. So you know, they listened, So I said do that. At the same time, you know, I'd sit down with Tom and and in fact, um, okay, a little bit of uh inside which which there's a song called um whatever it was, but I co wrote it, and I to take this. I said, Tom, you've got to do

this because this sounds better. And I co wrote a couple of songs with Tom because I knew that sometimes he'd ramble on a chorus or verse sorry verse at a B section and didn't get to the course quick enough. So I'd worked with him on on a musical level. I said, you know, he tried this, Court's try to stepping up a fourth, etcetera, etcetera, And he was very he was very open to that and loved me being

part of that. So need did you take credit for that? No? Okay, So tell us how you end up going to add co Well, uh, that comes a little story. So you know, during the period of PolyGram, I had bon Jovi had you know, I also at the same time I had another band, Kingdom Come, which went it blasted into the charts, into the top five because I gave Bob Rock his first production. And you know, everyone screams and yells it's alleged Zeppelin. You know, coffee band etcetera, et cetera. Will

you know what? It was perfect first time? And and and the band it was it was all over the radio. And at the same time I was working with Dexis and Tiers of Fears, etcetera, and worked with some other a couple of other bands which were ultimately successful in different fashions. So I guess I was hot shit as they were, you know, at that time. So and I thought, you know what, I'm looking at the people who run these companies, I'd like to try it. I really want

to do something like this. Um and I they PolyGram. They said, we'll give you, We'll give you mercury, We'll give you this to thing. And I've already done eight eight six seven years. I said, I want to try something new. And I got wooed by Geffen, by Irving, by by you know, all the players involved. Okay, did you put it out there or did they find you? No? I I decided that I was going to uh To. I wanted to run a label, you know. I wanted to see what it was like and to put a

team together. Because I put the team together, I've done. I put teams together as a band. I put teams together in working records and and and having the right managers are the right agents. I don't wanted to see if I can put a team together to run a company. So I my my lawyer, Um, yeah, put it. I put it out this and I said, I'm going to resign to PolyGram. They did not want me to resign. They offered me to be a label head of something else.

And I you know, even though it would have maybe a lot of money, I would have kept the points for Bob Joe, the points of Cinderella, etcetera, etcetera. But that for me, and it's this is gonna sound bizarre. I think to a lot of people. It wasn't about the money. It was about the challenge and it was about the passion. So you know, okay, I said, I gave up a couple of points. Okay, let me do something new. It's the same thing as as I talked

to you about when I was on the road. It's time when when it feels like I'm gonna do the same thing with the same people again and like a job and find the next Bongovi or the next syndrome or the next No, let me try something new. So you know, I wanted to try something new and just to run a label was something new. So I got offered, uh, you know, to run a couple of companies. But I met was Steve Ross and Warner Music. A couple of times I met was Armored and Dog first and then

Steve Ross, and he was the one. He was one guy that I was no suppressed by. And the reason and the stories are are I can give you hundreds of stories about why and what and everything else. And that was yet the coffin. You know, they somebody around to having dinners with hookers and dog knows what else. That wasn't what I was. It wasn't who I was. It was like, come on, I want to run something, which is something for me. They didn't know who I was.

But Steve Ross sat with me and he just come back from the Bahamas, I think, and we talked and he said he asked me what I did, what I wanted to do. And they're very kind of like easy going fashion. And again these are little little vignettes I have in my head. We had a basket of little uh raphia, you know, knickknacks, you know, like you buy for a dollar in the Bahamas, you know, and I said, those are cool. Where you get there? He said, I just came back to the harbors for a meeting. He said,

you want one, just a little dollar thing. The fact that you just gave me this little dollar knickknack and he was it just it got to me. I thought, well, that's he didn't offer me. You know the play, you know, the private jet to this. Yeah, he said, you want

this little dollar knicknack. And obviously you have worn in music at that time, you had you know, you had Warners, you had Electra, you had Atlantic, you know, dog and Armored and uh and and but that incident and and his vision of having entrepreneurs in the company, somebody who could do something without being told what to do, and could make his company a profit if you like, and do also do well personally financially. It was his. It was his m O. But I love the way that

he presented what it was. Of course, with more of these was spectacular company at that time. But that incident in particular was one which I walked away. I thought, now he didn't have to do that. He could have said I'll fly you to so and so, I'll do this and not the other. But he gave me this little knickknack and I walked away. I thought, well, you know that that kind of did it for me. And so I said, I'd like to resurrect this this uh this company that has been dormant at Co Records, and

and um it's a short fine. I mean, let's go for it. Uh. Dog was a little if you're about that, but that's neither hit nor there. Doug was if he wait, wait, wait that comes up. WoT Doug was if he because Doug was iffy because he saw this guy come into this company that had that had all these successes of PolyGram and at the time Atlantic was it was was kind of like in there, they were kind of in

a low period. And I believe I think that potentially possibly he thought I was coming in as a replacement. That was so far from my my, so far far from my my uh my thought process it was it was beyond belief. But I believe that he was a little threatened by by coming in to being a head of at CO alongside Atlantic Records. So um, so he was a little iffy about me taking on at CO company and putting a team together, etcetera, etcetera. But you know.

That's that's another story which I can uh embellish, but we got along ultimately, you know, uh in the way that I guess one should. Okay, so you're now an AVCO. You have the Rembrandt, you have a hit, you have Piantera. So what's it like they're running your own company? The first okay, the first uh two or three years fantastic, amazing. Um. You know, I was given free rein um the first year.

Obviously you had to build a team, and I kind of stole the best people from PolyGram because they were kind of like going through there there there's some maculations of being bought or wherever. Um. I got a really good team together. Um. I was lucky enough to have, you know, have a couple of pretty decent size hit

straight away, um, Pantera being one. And in fact, the funny story about Pantera was, I was going to sign into PolyGram, but I knew that I was leaving, and so I said to the attorney at the time, who's no longer with us, can you wait until I'm whispered in his ear? Um, And I signed them to to told COO and and Pantera was was a huge hit out of the box and Dog and this is a story about dog. Actually, UM, he didn't know the Pantera was. He thought it was some kind of hip hop, he

really did. He thought it was some kind of like is it is this a new dr Grey Um production? And of course it wasn't. But it was great for the first two or three years. Then UM in the fourth start of the fourth fifth year and wherever it was, I started losing. I realized I started losing perspective of what I was in it for. I came into meetings and I had my general manager. The company became bigger. We we we were just a rock lay we we.

I took on the mantle of of Ruthless Records. Of all things we did, we had this a couple of very big hits on Ruthless Um, which is a hip hop as you know, Ruthless Records, so Jerry Hella and it was some pop records. And I remember one thing in the particular again these little points of career, career development and why you did things ways and do things. I was sitting in my general manager's office and UM, I heard the song um on the radio. UM. It's

called Sincerely Yours by um Uh. I'm black and sorry, I'm it's a long day today. But I since, I said, I said to Harold Harry Palmer, Harry, what I like the song? What is this? I've heard it before and it looks at me like I was joking, I said. He said, it's hards It's no, it's it's it'sn't top number one. That was a turning point for me, you know. And I went home and I thought, boy, I've lost perspective of who I am. I was wearing a suit, you know, and I and I thought, I just lost

I'm losing I'm losing Derek. I'm losing Derek Shulman as as as someone who loves music, loves being involved in the music business. And the last couple of years we're not that good. I didn't like it, and I decided to um, I decided to or quit. They didn't want go wait wait wait wait wait? Are we were writing history? Didn't Doug sort of push you? He was He was an appreciate, big time big When I was in Russia, absolutely he offered me co chairman because he wanted Sylvia

own in there as well. Buddy, I was. I was up there at the same time. Now, I've not read writing history. Um, there's a lot of intrigue going on because time Warner was was involved. But Dog was certainly, uh, very much afraid that I was, you know, doing getting in his way. He's taken he's taken a lot of he's taken a lot of power away from Bob Bargado and that team there. Um, but it kind of drifted away. Yes, he certainly wanted me a way out of there, but nevertheless,

I had a contract that I had a company. However, at the same so it was so he we we met when I came back from Russia, and when it when I was out of the country. Um, he tried to do have a coup, but it didn't quite work. So I came back and he said, well you could eat chair can you can eat co chairman? You've got X number of points and everything else. As a dog, I'm out of here. They kept me there for another year and a half actually, so I said, no, I

don't want to do this. It was the same thing as I did when I said, you asked me about leaving Gentle Giant. No, it was it was it was not the money. I didn't want to do it. I'm over see you later. So no, yes, dog was certainly it's dog was certainly trying to get rid of this this guy who maybe you know on the on the prowl to get his job. But nevertheless, um when he offered need to be the co chair of the with Sylvia and and and get lots of points and lots of money and x x x, and I said, no,

I'm out of here. My my attorney with apeshot at me. So what are you talking about? So I'm done, I'm resigning. They wouldn't let me go for a year and a half because I had a contract, so I had to literally thing there and work with Irving on on some things. Uh. But it was really kind of like a sidecure, you know. I was not allowed to go anywhere. It's like an NBA, I feel like. But I had to be a part of the Water group music group. So you asked me how it was the first three or three and a

half years, for four years or great? Last two we're awful? And you were working with Irving on what with giant thing? Yeah? Giant? Yeah, we we did. We did something together on a giant. I put some records together. But it was really I was really working through a contract, but I was with Warner Music effectively. Okay, so your contract runs out? Then what then? Um? I took a time out, UM six months and you know again you you decide, you know

what what is it you want to do? I mean running, running a big corporation and being looking at myself in the mirror with a suit and listening to something on the radio that I didn't didn't even know belong to us, regot to me, and I tore a suit off myself and put put shorts and T shirt back on and said, the hell, I gotta get back to big Derrek again. Um. And about six months into not sure again what to do.

Thankfully I had enough to live on and we were not financially strapped, and I was living in New York, my wife and I had two kids in school and everything else. Um. I got a call from an old friend, um Case Vessels at road Run Records, and he said, what are you doing? Not much? I'm deciding what to do? He said, would you mind? Um we meet And because I you know, I've got this label in in so Ho we were doing. We've got a couple of good metal acts. But I'd love to see the company become

a big label. Okay, let me see what you've got. So I I met with CASA and new case from from Europe. Over the years, I knew him when he worked for our c A and and I met with him, and I saw him so the people in the office, and at a time, he was he was trying to build a label, uh, kind of an old purpose label. He had a dance label, he had a hip hop label.

He had this and that and the other. But I looked inside of the company, there's all these kids with like tattoos and and uh and piercings and god as well, this is a rock label. That's the case. You're you're you're doing something. You're spending money on all these other things, and you've got kids in there and who love type of negative or or or um, you know, fear factory, and you're trying to break this's hip hop stuff and and salt and pepper also or some some other thing

from another dance label. Or you have to get rid of things of focus on what you do best. So yeah, and I don't think he understood that he had a brand. So I kind of h for a year. I kind of consulted under the Radar and became the consultant to get rid of some of the stuff that chaff from the wheat. And then it became president of road Runner Records UM. And I really enjoyed that because it was to focus on what that was and what it could be. Was was a lot of fun because it was an

independent label. It wasn't run by a board of directors. We went whereas you know, Time Warner and that whole situation there was became a nignment when it was war in music group. It was great when it became Time Warner,

which again is another story entirely. That's when the dog thing and Markota were and Fuchs and everything else became became a best But this is the whole thing, a new independent company that was run by this guy at Case Vessel as he wanted it be to be a big powerful label, but to keep it's uh, it's um to keep whatever he had. I don't think he even knew what he had, because his love was more a Wagner than than a cold chamber or and or you know, slipknot.

He hated that stuff. But I saw what he had in the company and the people who were who he tired, and I said, this is what you got to do. Focus on what you do best. So I became president of road Runner and it was a great time. How did you signed slip Not or was slip Not already signed? No slip and I was a signed. What I did was was again number one, move away from the stuff that he he thought could make a popular company popular and focus on what was best. And the people there

were great, They were fantastic. They were really passionate people, passionately because it would work twenty four hours to seven to get the rock stuff gone. Um. I think the biggest breakthrough, yes it was was number one getting cole Chamber and Fear Factory to a different level. Uh. There were bands that had already been signed by Monty Connor, you know, and it was a great A and R guy,

and there's some very good people in there. But I brought in a guy called Dave A Lonco from Marcia as a head of promotion because promotions still mait meant something in those days radio promotion. Um. And and then I think that Monty and myself brought in Monty brought in a slip Knot together with me, But I knew when I saw Slip Not play, he said, what do you think? I thought. I looked at them and I felt the same way as they did with pan Terra.

I knew they had him. They were never going to be on MTV, they were never gonna be on on the radio, but boy they could play the fans all over the damn world. They were. They were purely fan based, you know. I said, this is the band we're going to spend all lout the money on. This is a green light band. And of course it went. The first album went to the races, it became huge, and that made the company, I can in serve respects, made the company take a big step into the big mainstream of

rock label, sort of independent rock label. And then the biggest next step if you like, and then probably the probably the worst step and the best step again was uh spreading the the spreading the core from the hardcore metal world into a more kind of um melodic, bigger label. And in that respect, why I signed, why I brought in Dave Lanco as it had a promotion, was to get some of the bands that we had signed on

the radio. For instance, um Uh Fear Factor did a song called cars and they got on the radio, type of negative, got a song on the radio. But we signed. I signed a band called Nickelback. Uh. Ron Berman had brought in several tapes and nickel Back was one of them. And I kept listening to this song UH on the first album and I kept playing and I kept playing. I said, this guy is a great writer. Who who the is it? And Ron saidness, a guy put Chad Kroeber and he's got a brother and it's a band

called Nickelback. And I said, let tell me about them. So he told me about that when we when to see them in Vancouver. UM and they were fantastic writers, and we we signed them and the first album UH was had had the black Again. I'm sorry, I'm lacking

on on tracks and everything else. The first album did very well with that with the first track that we put out, you know Day was able to get tons of airplay, and and then they put together the second album, which is again another milestone in I guess my career. If you're like Silver Side Up with how You Remind Me?

When you hear that song how You Remind Me? I knew as soon as I heard that that was going to be an absolute home run smash, no matter who did it, how how how it was done, and of course Dave got it to the top of the charts

and Nickelback became massive. It made a lot of money for the label, and and it became something of a millstone round cases neck and perhaps mind because unfortunately Case, having just seen been part of a little company that did look very well in a little world, suddenly open up to become a gigantic uh label that took a lot of income, and he wanted more of it. And those kind of albums and those kind of songs come along once every ten years, they don't come along every

damn six minutes. Uh So trying to look for the next one and spending money to do that, it was the wrong direction for the company. And ultimately I it wasn't right for me, It wasn't right for Case and he the company became There was a lot of things that happened to the company and that put me off being part of it because he was going he didn't he did. He made a mistake in Europe by um putting in the company in in a financial scrap in North America, and that stopped me being able to do

what I could do in North America. I said, case, this is not gonna work. So again I said, I can't do this anymore. And and he took he had to sell the company. Uh and you know it a fairly good profit, but certainly not what he was what he should have been worth when it was done. So that was that was the roadrunner world and the road running days, which are great for the most part, really were,

they were fantastic. And since then I've been kind of consulting, uh, you know, various labels and and and dialing about and and doodling and becoming an all fart. Okay, why does everybody hate Nickelback? I I think it's. To tell you this truth, I don't think they do. I think it's a guilty pleasure for most people. But I think that it's it's the it's the incarnation of corporate rock, as we all know and you know what, yes, it is,

but you know, so is a lot. I mean, I think corporate rock is you know, corporate corporate rock is is um is part of what we're doing. Look, corporate rock is everywhere. I mean, I think TikTok and YouTube and everything else's corporate rock. As well, So I think it became the it became the sort of target for for all things that were bad. There were the man if you like, which, which of course it was to a certain degree. But nevertheless, uh, it certainly was not

something that people disliked when they bought it. And they're not a band that people don't didn't didn't not like when they were going. And it's still you know, there's still around, and they still write good songs and and it's it's it's funny because when I was there, they weren't the sort of target of of being the most uncol band of the world. You know. It's the same as bon Jovi's the most uncool guy in the world, you know, so like he cares. You know, uncool doesn't

mean anything, doesn't mean ship. You know. Sorry, I don't believe in cool, were uncool? I believe in and And the first thing is do what you do, do what you do best, and if it works, it works, if it's done done. Okay. Wait, I just got in here that you don't believe in what being uncool or cool? Okay, Okay, Now, while people with this turn of the century, that's when how you remind me came out two thousand one two

was really big. Uh. While all this was going on, we all the crazy you know, all the corporate stuff happened in the nineties with Warner etcetera. But then we

have the disruption of Napster. Everybody's bit about stealing music and everyone's bitching about Nickelback, but they don't realize that hip hop is dominating the internet correct, and hip hop gave it away for free with mixtapes, and hip hop was on SoundCloud, such that if the turn of the decade, when streaming really becomes big with Spotify, suddenly it's all hip hop. Okay. As someone who has made his bones and really understands rock, A, is there a future for rock?

Is there a place for rock today? And be does it have to be adjusted to regain market shure to use a corporate term. Well, is there a market for rock? Yes, of course there is. I mean all these big festivals all over the world which are nonexistent right now. Of course in this say and age, um, they're all headlined by rock bands. However, you know, these are rock bands that made their made their mark in the seventies, So I mean they're gonna be dying soon. Um, so yes,

it's a it's a gigantic marketplace. I don't think the hip hop world and the pop world and the YouTube world and the TikTok world can confill that gap. But certainly as far as a live uh music business is concerned, it's it's it's rock driven, of course it is. But nevertheless, on the on a different level, you'd be surprised. And I I'm surprised and and and I'm surprised that the world of hip hop um is actually a lot more musical and musically musically diverse then most other world, most

out of a business is concerned. And I'll give you a case in point. Um. I just had a gold record presented to me by a band called Ron the Jewels um who who have has a song which is a song called Legend has It which is the least song on Black Panther. They sampled one of gentle giant songs. And that world has gone back to listening to some of the music which was authentic. I guess the seventies Prague music believe it or not common and and the guys and roots, they're all fans of music, rock music

of the seventies and and progressive music. Actually, that's anit very interesting fact. That very is very interesting sidebar that I don't think, no, not, not many people know about. They're the most musically interested and interesting people that are

around actually in some respects. So to ask you the question about rock being a viable of course it is right now, it isn't because it's it's all about live and as far as streaming is concerned, you know, I see that people are piste off that they're not not streaming and and and there, and Spotify is uh dining a legg is becoming this vilified kind of guy. That's bullshit.

I'm sorry, you know, it's it's silly, you know what, you know, because back in the day, I was thinking when I was reading about all the stuff people complaining that he's he's a greedy funk and all that stuff, you know. And I'll go back to the my my beginnings in the in the music business when I first got a deal, and this is I'm gonna take myself all the way back now to sixty seven um as

Simon for in the Big Sounds. We were we had a great following, we were playing our assets off, we played, We played triples and quadruples if you've heard of them. You played an afternoon show, you played an evening show, you played a long nighter, and then you literally do these these shows all over the country, all over all over the UK and in in Europe too, and you became pretty damn good at what you did. You know you if you didn't and you didn't become the band um.

And then we got a record deal and our record our record deal, and our record deal was based on a demo which was sent up to E m I. So E m I invited us up to eat who there to Abbey Road and we had to do a full set on stage at Abbey Road with the producers including George Martin, Nori Paramore, etcetera, etcetera, all the producers

looking at us sitting there like this. We had to do our full charms crossed for those uh in the non video arms crossed, and we did the full set of Simony for the big sound set and low and behold, we gotta set, we gotta deal a record deal. But the record deals one single and that was a record deal, you know, and one single came out. We were fortunate enough to have it hit the lower parts of the top four, so we did another record. But the record deals in those days, they were an album deals. There

were one singles. I don't think that back beatles had a record deal. I think there was a one single deal that Love Me Do. That was it. So I mean back in the day, it was about the singles, and we did singles. So and that's how we built our built our fan based our reputation. The album thing was a whole different animal. That was the seventies. But

the sixties were all about record deals. And even bands like Deep Purple, who was yeah there were Me and Gylan and Roger Glover were in a Bad Episode six. They did singles. You know, you can the idol racer Robert Plant was in the band of Joy. They did singles, you know. So all these bands that that was the day when you did singles and you were lucky to get a deal, And that was that's how you got a deal. You did a whole set in front of these producers and you were lucky to get a deal.

So now I'm looking at these people saying three or four years for an album, etcetera, etcetera. Okay, you know, I understand I did albums too, but you know what it is. What again, I'll quote our our favorite uh, our favorite guy who was sitting in the way up. It is what it is, um, and then that's that's ironic, by the way, I'm sorry, that's a bit of irony for it. You know, UM, it is about the song.

It is about what it is, and and it's today's world and not not not the last years or last last months, or or ten or fifteen twenty years ago. And I do have sometimes a problem in talking to someone of those of those periods that and they have all these golden platinum albums on their walls and saying that's not going to happen anymore. It's over. You will not have those anymore, and they're they're there, there's you know, they're shrugging their shoulders, thinking why because that's that that

was then and this is now. You know, it's it's it's it's a bizarre twist. But the weirdest twist for me is having these hip hop UH musicians marketing back to music which they thought was was relevant and authentic. And I just got a gold record, as I said, from Round the Jewels, UH was you know with Killer Mike and and LP, they're they're huge fans of mine and this bizarre not of what I've done with bon Jovio Pantera, but my as a musician, and that's the

key to it. Well, that brings us full circle literally, starting with the General Giant, ending up with General Giant. Listen, this has been so informative. You tell a great story. Thanks so much for doing this, Derek so much. Are you Bob? It's great to see you again as well. Until next time. This is Bob left side