Dayna Frank

Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstets podcast. My guest today is Dana Frank, President and CEO of First Avenue, also president of the board of NIVA, the National Independent Venue Association. So Dan and tell me about this new legislation about ticketing, the Fans First Act.

Thanks, Bob, I'm excited to be here.

We have introduced at the end of twenty twenty three the Fans First Act, led by Senators Cornyn and Kloeshar with Senators Luhn, Welsh.

Wicker and Blackburn.

It's a real, no nonsense, no brainer ticketing legislation that you know, attempts to get tickets into the hands of real fans at fair prices and to cut down on some of the predatory and deceptive practices and has some transparent measures that everyone seems to like, like all in pricing and reinforces the Bots Act, and is one step of the puzzle that will go a long way towards really protecting our fans and making sure that people who want to go to the concerts actually get the tickets.

You say, one piece of the puzzle. What might the other pieces be?

Oh, there's a number of different legislative solutions, you know, in terms of ticketing, and you know, everyone after Taylor Swift last year, seems to think they're an expert in ticketing, and so a lot of folks had their own, you know, solutions, you know. So this is what we think is a bipartisan kind of no brainer, first.

Piece of the puzzle.

So tell me about some of the elements in the act, right.

So first, we have all in pricing with itemization, which is important I think in our industry and with the artist groups, so that fans know, yes, what is the total price they're going to pay for the ticket, but also what are the fees and you know, what's the face value and what's the artist charging for the tickets.

We have.

An opt in solution so when people buy on the secondary market that they can opt in to receive communications from the artists and from the ticket sellers directly. So in terms of canceled shows or moved times. You know, it's a huge problem where we're hosting a show, we don't know sometimes forty to fifty percent of the ticket buyers who are actually coming to the show, so we have no way of communicating any kind of changes in

Okay, let's try to drill a little deeper. So in terms of deceptive advertising, let's say your tickets are on ticket Master. Just to make it simple, when you Google frequently, that's not the first hit you get something from a broker or something. So how would this legislation address that if at all?

Yep, Yeah, So it has a ban on using IP either venue or artist or promoter IP in organic search and advertising and promotion. So you know, if sometimes you'll Google and you'll see the venue or the official website. Sometimes it comes down even on like the second page of Google and so the first six, seven and eight

Let's talk very practically. So now I'm searching for tickets, will I see the authorized reseller first? Or is it just that the other ones it will be clearer that their secondary market? What will I actually see if I'm a relatively unsophisticated buyer.

So you will still see the Google ad words the purchased words first, and so that might be a secondary seller. However, if you know, I don't want to presume that everybody has their SEO optimization down, but the first or second should be the official seller below that adds the purchase ads.

Okay, tell us a little bit more about secondaries not being able to use primary ip.

Yeah, so things like like I said, those Facebook groups, or things like using the venue name to advertise or the artist's name to advertise you know, we have to allow for them to actually advertise what it is they're selling, right, they have to be able to use that name. But in terms of like advertising and promotions, that would.

Not be allowable.

Can you give me an example.

Yeah, you know, if they're sending out an email blast in the header, it's like buy all of your first avenue tickets here, right, So what would be allowable is like a ligne listing and a description of the actual product, but not the use of that IP in overall marketing and promotions.

Okay, Now you talked about enforcement, about the previous Botch Act enforcement there and what would be different today.

Right, So you know what when we first started thinking about legislative solutions for ticketing issues, what we heard really clearly is there has to be pretty stiff monetary penalties because anyone from state ags to official you know, government officials, without financial penalties, there's very little motivation or resources to go after a perpetrator. So we have in the bill, it's believed, don't quote me on this, I believe it's one thousand dollars a day up to ten thousand dollars

Okay, It's one thing to have the law on the books, it's another thing to have it enforced. You know, in terms of crime, usually ticketing is far from the top. So what would ensure that law enforcement would actually act on this?

That is a great question.

I think it's going to be the loud voice of our industry having this law and having the financial penalties and having you know, also in the law there's a website that anyone can go to report the violations and really making.

Sure that it is enforced.

But that's certainly been an issue with every piece of ticketing legislation that's passed.

Okay, so what is the status of the bill down.

Yep, So we introduced at the end of December. Excited to get it introduced. Timing wise, it was like right before the recess. So we're actively securing co sponsors. We have a number of whom in the hopper and are you know, really excited by the momentum and hopefully we'll be able to introduce the new co sponsor soon. And there's also a piece of legislation in the House called the Ticket Act that has the similar provisions of the Fans First Act. And also, I forgot to mention spec

But it's when.

Somebody has posted a ticket for sale that doesn't actually exist yet, right they're posted before the actual on sale or in seats that don't exist, et cetera. So this would actually make the practice of spec tickets illegal. It would allow for a concierge service, which would allow for a consumer, if they can't get online at you know, Tuesday at ten am, to be able to come out quote unquote hire a broker such to go and secure

Okay, let's go back. You know you're very familiar with the legislative process. Many people are not. Let's go back to the beginning and with Klobatar, who's your state senator, Minnesota? How did this legislation come to be?

So we started seeing after reopening, I would end of twenty twenty one, really beginning of twenty twenty two, amongst the NEVA folks that are drop rates just weren't really recovering.

Wait with just a little bit slower because there's a lot of things going on. Tell us about NIVA.

Sure So, NIVA as the National Independent Venue Association, we came together late March early April after the COVID shutdowns had completely you know, ended our business and our ability to generate any revenue whatsoever, and we banded together both for knowledge sharing and community and trauma bonding as people would say, but also to pass legislation that would allow us the resources to ensure that we're able to reopen

That's the qualifications.

Okay, how did you end up being the president of the board.

That is a great question.

I maybe because no one else wanted to do it. I was the one that was really passionate about a federal bill and kind of led the charge on the advocacy effort. And because advocacy really was the first, second, and third priority, you know, realizing that there would be no venues in which to have an association if we didn't get this bill passed. The four other folks that were on the board elected me president.

Okay, let's go back. You're sitting at home, lockdown, there are no shows. Tell me about the genesis of Neva and your role in it.

So it was actually Reverend Moose and Marauder that called folks together on a town hall I think the first. The first one was actually a conference call. I don't even know if anyone knew what Zoom was yet, and it was I believe, a end of February, first week of March, to just hear from from folks in Europe what they were seeing and really kind of give a

Now to what deg we Was there an organization prior to this amongst the independents?

Oh, there was no organization.

I think, you know, people they would talk about with very you know, with guards up.

You know.

I kind of made it a habit whenever I traveled, I would always reach out to the independent promoter, the club owner in town, just to get a tour and just to try to learn from them and see what they're doing. And I feel like I was always greeted with a little bit of like, are you coming into my city?

What do you want to talk to me for?

And so there was certainly a lot of we knew about each other, but I don't think there was a lot of you know, knowledge sharing or real kind of deep community amongst them.

And that changed real fast.

Okay, so now everybody's on a zoom. How do you organize and how do you set an agenda.

Very messily. Those early meetings were they were pretty frantic, pretty desperate, and the way it came together it really self organized. And I think when you're in a situation that is, you know a little bit like war, a little bit like there's no alternative. It really people really wanted to help and there wasn't a whole lot of you know, arguments or dissension dissensions. It really was like, Okay, we need to do this.

Who's going to do it? Great, you're going to do it. And also, you.

Know, again kudos to Rever Moose who was our early executive director and how real from World Cafe.

Why don't you tell people who he is?

He has a marketing firm out of New York called Marauder, and he was he brought Independent Venue Week across from the UK, and so he was the just again the perfect person to really gather everybody because he didn't have a venue so wasn't seen, you know, as a competitor, but also was already in communication with all the independent venues in town due to independent Venueek.

Okay, so now everybody's talking, how do you set the agenda?

So really it's centered around we need to get this bill passed. Okay, what do we need to do to get a bill passed?

Well, well, a little bit slower. So I mean, I remember being on the email thread and basically it's about getting money to the venues and the people who worked there. But how did you decide you were going to have legislation, How did you decide what was going to be in the legislation, How did you decide who's going to be the first mover.

So we weren't even thinking legislation at the beginning. We were just thinking, Okay, there's going to be another Care's bill. We want to get in that Cares bill because we had read the first Cares bill and saw, oh wait, there's a separate provision for restaurants.

So that's how we knew it was possible.

We're like, if they're doing something for restaurants, they can do something for venues because we don't have takeout. You know, they went down thirty forty percent, we were down to zero percent. So we're like, we need something in that bill. Okay, how do you get something in a bill? You got to hire a lobbyist. So I called around to the folks.

I knew who might be well, wha, wha, wha, whoa a little bit slower. How did you become the point person?

I think I was. I that's a really good question.

Maybe just because I was super passionate and you know, making a lot of the calls and had a vision and was determined to really get this thing done, and so just I think de facto fell into that role of quarterback.

Oh okay, So basically everybody did they say, Dana, you go, or all all of a sudden, everybody's doing different stuff and they said, well, Dana's doing stuff, let's fall behind her.

I think at that time, no one really knew what to do.

So when somebody came, you know, with a plan and with Okay, this is what we're going to do, it really you know again, like I said, everybody was really willing to contribute and willing to contribute where they were

On the ground.

The really main commitment was to get your local congress person and your senator invested in our cause and.

Wanting to help us.

So how did you end up hiring a lobbyist?

We got very early financial support from ce tickets. We had nothing, right, We had a lot of people and a lot of people with time and willingness to work, but we had no resources whatsoever. So we got some early financial support. There were about six of us that gathered as the you know, kind of de facto selection or search committee.

We each kind of reached out to people that we knew.

I mean, you know, at the beginning, I can't really kind of overstate how how frantic and how hard everyone worked and what just kind of a.

Desperate time it was.

But it was like, okay, we need a federal lobbyist. I called to the you know, kind of bigger promoters that I thought might be doing something in DC. No one had a federal lobbyist. So I was like, wait, I don't know anyone in DC. I'm from Minnesota.

What am I going to do?

And I'm like, wait, then, I'm thirty club And so I happened to have been sitting next to Audrey Fixschaeffer at a dinner a few nights a few months before and just sent her a Facebook message saying, Hey, you're

Tell us about Casey and his firm.

Mm. Her firm is.

No, No, So they're a huge, you know top I don't know that much about law firms, but a top firm and really became invested in our cause.

And I think how.

Pastora law firm lobbying firm, Well.

The the lobbyists are are lawyers, so it's a law firm that also has us.

So all the lobbyists are lawyers.

I might be overstating that, but I believe most of the major lobbying firms are law firms.

Okay, and so this law firm they're representing NIVA. How many other clients do they have?

Oh?

Oh a hundreds? But thank god the conflict check checked out. So that was very fortunate for us.

And so then what kind of an agreement do you make with the lobbying firm?

Yeah, yeah, So we had a monthly retainer and they got to work immediately, I think from our first call, you know, really guiding the strategy and setting out how we were going to tell our stories. I I'll never forget. You know, they did a lobbying one oh one for NIVA members, like how to talk to your member of Congress, you know, because most folks had never been involved in

So, okay, how do you talk to a congress person, you know, like a real person.

It would it's pretty surprising.

And sharing our stories and I was going to say fortunately, but really it's unfortunately. You know, we had kind of the most authentic SOB story of all sab stories. You know, during the pandemic, people were cashing out there for one case, they were.

Remortgaging their houses.

They were doing everything imaginable and anything they could to just try to hang on one more month, two more months. So you know, those were the stories that we told. And on top of that the impact that we have in our communities, and we were, you know, really fortunate that we had built. You know, almost every independent venue has built really strong, deep rooted community relationships. So you know, I was on a call with a congress person from rural or yeah, the valley in California, and so it

Okay, you go to the lobbying firm, we hear all the time that the lobbying firm writes the legislation. Is that what happened?

I think the staffers wrote the the staffers wrote the legislation, but.

The lobbying firm of the staffers for the elected officials.

The Senate officials. Yeah, yeah, the Senate staffers.

Okay, so you have lobbying one on one from the lobby firm you hire, and do they tell everybody in NEEDA to talk to their people? Do they say what the agenda is?

Right?

So we organized into a precinct captain system. So the folks that initially had said they were interested in lobbying the we all joined on. I think we were talking three times a week. We were in constant communication, and so there was one kind of leader for every state or district. So we had like you know, Northern California and Southern California, and those folks were responsible for coordinating

That's how we organized.

Okay, Okay, very practically. You have these precinct captains. You then want to hit every member of Congress and you want to tell them what story. You just want to say, give me money or do you go over there with an agenda? We needed x y Q.

YEP.

I believe we hit ninety five percent of members of Congress. I think we even had a representative from Guam. So we you know, our motto is no stone left unturned, because it's you know, easy to sit here in twenty twenty four and look back and say, oh, of course we were going to get.

The bill we had.

There was no assurances whatsoever that we were going to get anything, and so we left literally no stone unturned. If there was anyone to talk to, we would talk to them. I think one one of our members actually found out the running route of her senator and put up yard signs along the running route to get his attention. And so, yeah, we went in and the kind of a gender or strategy we followed was, you know, tell

Okay, so you go when you hit all these congress people, are you just telling a story or do you say we want X?

We always had an ask that was rule rule number one is you know, you go and you tell your story, but there's always an end with will you sign our letter? Will you co sponsor our legislation? Will you if you've already co sponsored, will you call to people and help convince them to co sponsor? You know, always leaving with a tangible way that somebody can help us.

How does it turn from a want hiring the lobbying firm to an actual piece of legislation. When you're saying will you sign our legislation, we're just legislation come from.

Yeah, it was actually the senators we sent out you know again along with like there's there's so many industry partners, and thank you again to everyone.

Everyone.

I feel like listening to this probably helped in some way. So we just again, we first sent a letter just saying, hey, in Congress, we need help.

We're totally shut down.

The only thing that's going to get us through is you to you know, doing a dear colleague letter. So we had I think forty nine senators send a letter to leadership saying, hey, leadership, you should take these guys seriously. And then there was a bill that was introduced by Senators Bennett and Young called the Restart Act that would help businesses disproportionately disadvantaged. So you know, our you know, our thought process was that PPP helped all businesses equally. Well,

So we love that.

So we're like, okay, this is we're going to advocate for this bill. So we had all the NIVA members sent emails out to their email lists, you know, saying hey, you can email your senators this way, and along with some industry partners that also sent emails out to their email list, we ended up getting two point two million emails into Congress.

It was just an.

Unreal level of support from our customers and concert goers. And so when those emails started flooding into the offices, all of a sudden, we started getting a lot of attention, and Senators Corny and clobush Are actually said okay, I think it's time for your own bill, and so we didn't again this it was our dream of all dreams, but it was generated by them.

Okay, how does it work with the Senate visa VI the House?

Oh?

Great question. So it has to pass both houses.

I'm trying to remember my what was the Schoolhouse rock? How a bill becomes a law. So the bill has to pass both houses. So we introduced in the Senate first, and then we had a House companion that was the same bill, and so when they both passed, then it goes to the President's office.

Okay, sometimes the bills are different and there has to be some kind of reconciliation. That was not a factor here.

So we actually didn't We didn't pass as a standalone bill. We passed as part of the package. So the package passed the Senate and then I believe it passed the House, but the inclusion was similar. And I'm having to really stretch into my memory. So yeah, it was end of December that it ended up. The package ended up going.

Through December of twenty twenty.

Right, did you get what you wanted?

App? I mean we're still in business right as The ultimate test and how successful this legislation was is that, you know, we had very few NIVA members closed for financial purposes and folks are still around to reopen and to fight another day.

Okay, just to drill down, what did first Avenue get from PPP and what did you get from Save our Stages?

I don't remember the exact numbers. I think amongst our six venues we got around ten million I believe from the Save our Stages grants.

Well, let me ask you a different way. You have venues, they have operating costs, you have employees. What did PPP cover.

Oh, PPP covered maybe a month, maybe maybe two months of our operating expenses, Like it was very insubstantial.

Then when you got save our State ages, what personage did it cover that or did it just allow you to keep the doors open so to speak.

Yeah, it was able to cover our expenses.

You know, going back, we were closed eighteen months and it allowed us to reopen and rehire. You know, rehiring and reopening is you know, ungodly amounts of expenses. We didn't have any employees, right, you have to go through all of the onboarding process, all the rehiring process, all the cleaning processes, the new filters, some other like you know,

Okay, So between PPP and Save our Stages, the people lose money, break even or make money.

Well, the way the formula worked is you were only allowed to spend your spend the money on operating expenses. There's no way to quote unquote make money.

You know, you have.

To show the SBA the receipts of what you spent your money on. So I mean, unless there's no you know, ethical or realistic way to just kind of pocket money.

Right.

In fact, fifty percent of people are still closing out there, save our stages grants.

So how hard was it to actually get the money in your account?

Fucking impossible.

I mean it was, you know, we pad that bill passed and end of December twenty twenty. Some people might remember this, there was you know, Trump wasn't going to sign the bill. There was maybe three days of just absolute you know, heart stopping, continued panic, and then then he ended up signing it and it became law. So we were thinking, okay, SBA, will you know, get the website up maybe mid February at the latest. Well, March came along and they still you know, didn't have a website.

The website crashed.

There was a sentiment amongst the industry, including the performing arts folks and the museums, that there wasn't going to be enough money in the bill. So we went back to Congress and got more money added. And so then when it finally opened the end of April, the approval process, because the restrictions were so stringent, you know, you had to prove that you sold tickets, you had to prove that you had a PA, you had to prove your

Wow. So is there anybody who ultimately got left out. And there are other people where the steps were so onerous they just gave up or couldn't figure it out.

You know a lot of folks we heard actually applied, or some folks that should say, applied for the Restaurant Revitalization Act. There you had to have I think thirty three percent food. So some folks opted to just to just go for the Restaurant Act. And so, you know, I think in terms of folks getting left out, I think it was moral industries like the gyms. I think maybe they felt left out or I'm trying to remember

Okay, so let's jump forward. You talked about the drop rates going down. Explain for those who are not sophisticated what drop rates are, right.

So, a drop count is how we measure what percentage of ticket buyers actually show up, scan their tickets and enter the venue. So it's really important, especially to clubs and theaters who make their money on the ancillar raising people in the venue, buying beer and spending money in the venue. So if you sell a ticket to somebody that doesn't show up, that's effectively lost revenue for us. So before COVID, you know, we had a no show rate of maybe five percent, four or five percent. Well,

Did you do when you notice these bad numbers?

Yeah, so first, you know, we just went I think I think I went to Casey and just said, hey, we're seeing this.

This is a huge problem for us. What do you is there? You know, what can we do legislatively about it?

Because we started, you know, discussing amongst ourselves and realizing that these tickets are sitting on the secondary market, and so you know, if you sell a ticket to a broker, well sometimes they're more invested in selling if they buy twenty tickets, they're more invested in selling five tickets for you know, five hundred dollars versus twenty tickets for two hundred dollars and so that's you know, it again works out all fine and well for the brokers, but for

Okay, what can we do about this?

Because you know, you don't not everything can be a crisis, but this, this has the potential to be another oncoming crisis.

Okay, once again, you have the Senate in the House. Is this an independent bill or is this part of another bill?

Right now, it's an independent bill. We're working hard to get co sponsors in the Senate. There is a House bill that is a different bill that's called the Ticket Act, that has some of the similar provisions like all in pricing and banning spect tickets and predatory deceptive practices. You know, we think the Fans First Act has much stricter penalties and the language within each of those categories goes further

Okay, what is CO sponsoring AD?

What is it at right now?

No?

What does it do for the bill?

Oh?

It shows that we have momentum that we have you know, people and politicians I should say that believe in this and that we'll vote for it, and that are invested in it, and just goes to show general support.

Okay, you know this is Washington, d C. We read every day in the paper. People say one thing publicly and another thing privately. How hard is it to get someone to go on the record say hey, yeah, I'll do that.

How hard is it?

It's not easy.

It's definitely not easy. I think that you know, as independent venues and our partners and the fix the TIXT coalitionion which includes you know, the performing arts and the bigger venues and independent ticket sellers and you know folks throughout the industry, I think we have an important voice, and we have an important story, and I do think that we have the right bill.

You know, we.

Started with the goal of you know, trying to cap resale at you know, ten percent above face or you know, trying to do some more protective measures and realizing the political and feasibility of it. I think we have the bill right now that is passable, that is a no brainer. Like I said, it's an important first piece of the puzzle. I don't believe comprehensive ticketing legislation has ever even gotten

Okay, is the lobbyist the person who's always into the nitty gritty with the elected officials or do you or other individuals from the organization actually get into the trenches too.

So the lobbyists are definitely you know, again, they're most knowledgeable in terms of like bill language and how to phrase what we want in the legal terms that make a bill effective. Certainly, myself and Stephen Parker, the executive director of NIVA, and the other advocacy committee leadership can talk in the nitty gritty. I think, however, our voice is probably most effective as business owners and effective constituents.

So do you personally talk to Amy Klobitchaw.

Whenever? I am so lucky?

Absolutely, I think she's the best.

Why is she the best? And when you do, how often would you talk to him? What would be the agenda? Like, hey, good seeing Amy, Let's talk about the weather, or you get down into what you're looking for.

You know, I think she's the best because she absolutely fights for what she believes in and she doesn't give up until she gets it done.

And you know, there's a reason why I think she is.

The most effective legislator, right And she just really cares. And you know, throughout the same of our stages process and throughout COVID, like she really cared about our industry, She cared about my employees, she cared about making sure we were reopen, and she, you know, again, like us, left no stone unturned and did every thing possible to make sure that that bill is passed.

Let me recap in the last twelve months. How many times have you spoken have been one on one with Amy Klobitchar.

Oh, less than a handful. No, We're not like having dinner or drinks.

Leavis spearheading this bill. Not everybody has the same agenda. What did the brokers in the secondary market have to say?

Right?

So, you know, I do think it's important that before we even started this effort, we put together the Fix the TIXX Coalition, which has thirty members you know, from throughout the industry, from the Recording Academy and the artist groups that have you know, as important, if not a more important voice in this than we do, you know, to the TONDO and to the performing our groups, independent ticket sellers, like I said, and so I think it's

Okay, do the secondaries have their own lobbyists and relationship with elected officials?

Oh? Absolutely, absolutely, very strong ones.

So when you're having this bill, are they literally part of the mix or are they just going behind the scenes to the people who are supporting them saying, hey, we don't want this.

You know, I'm not entirely sure. I know that they're running a public campaign. I forgot what their alliance is called. But you know, again, we think that we have the right bill. We have a very compromise kind of no brainer solution that would bring transparency and some you know, clarity to our customers. And like I said, what we started out with like on a fire and brimstone of you know, of the secondary market. We compromise in order

Okay, people think ticketing is easy, but it's very complicated. I've had my own interaction with the government and even people who were there dedicated to this, I'm stunned with they don't understand it. So Congress people, do they understand ticketing.

It's interesting to me how many, especially staffers that we talked to, that have their own experience their ticket buyers. Right there are customers, you know, they're going to shows, and.

So they have a really good.

Knowledge of it from the customer side, which sometimes you know, promoters and venues.

Sometimes we don't even have.

That perspective of it as far as like the intricacies of the market. Some some do, and most of you know, everyone we've talked to especially is very smart and as soon as we explain it, they get it immediately.

Okay, you went undercover to the broker conference. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, So I was able to use a friends a friend's name and credit card and walk around the floor of the conference and was just totally in shock at the tools that they have in order to access our tickets, like on precedented, unimaginable ways to get their hands on our tickets. As much as we try to, you know, put ticket limits and put zip code restrictions and put all non transferability anything we try to do, there's a workaround.

Yeah, you can, you can.

We can get you a thousand different credit card numbers and you don't even need don't worry any zip code you.

Want, don't even worry about it.

Their inventory management solutions are way more sophisticated than what we have, right, Like, they can manage all your inventory effectively, you know, hide the inventory and post it based on how many people are buying in the pricing algorithms, based on what the pricing is across all the different secondary markets. They have tools that allow that instantly access all of the pre sale pass codes in one place, and that can ping are the ticketing companies to actually get pretty

And then on the right.

Side, it's okay, here's all the different their pre Selle passwords, here's when they go on sale. You've been set up to buy automatically with your you know, ghost browsers, with your virtual credit cards.

It's just it's just insane.

So it became instantly illuminating, you know, why we were having these drop count issues, and why fans were so frustrated when they were unable to access tickets, and why they're paying so much more, you know, in for their tickets that are actually going to those of us responsible for making shows happen.

Is this a winnable war by the ticket company.

By the ticketing companies, the dato It's an ongoing battle between the secondary market brokers and the ticketing companies whatever it might be Ticketmaster access see.

You know, is this going to go on forever? Or is there any way that they can have enough technology to put a dent this?

I mean, certainly after walking that floor, it became clear that we need a legislative solution because any tech that we can come up with, you know, they can instantly combat.

Because they don't have the stress or the.

Financial strain of actually having to put on shows. They can put one hundred percent of their resources into just getting our tickets right. So you know, again the you know, in Minneapolis, we have we're doing eleven hundred, twelve hundred shows a year, We're servicing customers, we have a busy, stressful business to then you know, try to also go above and beyond, and you know, we do the very best we can while still actually having you know, having

Right.

I think there's very kind of There are problems that are becoming more and more apparent that are customer facing and not just industry facing.

So you're focusing on legislation to solve this problem. Do you believe technology can solve the problem?

You know, I am not smart enough about the technological aspects. I certainly hope, so all of you smart tech people listening to the podcast please also another important part of the puzzle.

Right, Okay, you go to this convention. I'm just interested, Hey, how many people are there? B You're an attractive young woman. Do they say what she doing here? Or are there are a lot of women there?

I was definitely one of the only one of the only women in the room.

I was.

I thought I was gonna get called out immediately, because certainly it was a lot of bros.

It was a lot of bros. So there were maybe.

Eight hundred or so, and it seems to be mostly about the trade floor and about you know, they had like maybe one or two panels a day right at nivacn which I'll give a small plug for everybody to come to the NIVA conference in New Orleans in early June. But you know, it's about learning, it's about bettering your business. We have, you know, dozens and dozens of panels throughout the entire day that they had, you know, maybe two panels a day, and seemed to be mostly about networking

Okay, just to be clear, let's say you have a show. To make the numbers easy, we'll call it one thousand tickets and we'll say the ticket was twenty dollars and use your example, and people spend eighty dollars on the secondary market. Do you find that, no matter how well the show is doing, it's one thing that the show's going clean. If it's selling out Okay, tickets are hard to get, but let's just assume the show is doing

Absolutely?

I mean last I checked, every single one of our shows was listed on secondary market. So even the ones at the smaller capacity rooms, you know that maybe were under half sold. So and without a doubt because of the way that the advertisements are working that most people from what I've I believe I read a stat that forty percent of people buy their tickets by just clicking the first link in Google right. And so as a independent venue like we don't have the resources to outdid

Now, I believe you said previously that the brokers are so sophisticated they can even replicate your website.

Yeah, for a while, I'm not sure if it's still up, but for a while there was a website called First Avenue Boxofice dot com. Well that wasn't us. The branding, the I want to say, the logo. That's another thing that the fans first act. You know, you couldn't you can't use logos, you can't use photos of the venue, you can't do anything to try to represent yourself as

Okay, let's just go a little bit more into ticketing. When you look deeply, frequently everybody has dirty hands. You have the customer who's complaining, and then you say, when you want to do something what we used to call paperless or tie it to their phone whatever. They're pissed off because they can't buy multiple tickets and scalp them themselves. So what about locking tickets down to individuals? Is that something that you can do want to do or is that ship sailed?

I mean in terms of a knowing who's in the room, that would be incredibly helpful. You know, sometimes you have emergency situations, you have bands that are giving us, you know, stocker lists that they don't want let in. It would be incredible to have the information for everybody in the room in terms of trying to get people in the door quickly. That probably you know, there's a there's a

I guess what I'm saying is, do you view customer secondary market scalping is an issue you want to address.

You know, we're mostly concerned with industrial level scalpers. You know, if somebody bought a ticket, they intended to go to the show, they couldn't find a babysitter, and they want to make an extra ten bucks off that ticket. I don't know if anyone. I certainly don't have an issue with that. You know, we're at NIVA really concerned though about you know, again the industrial level scalpers that are using these really sophisticated tools to build customers kind of.

On mass you have seven venues. How many different ticketing companies do you use?

We use one venu.

We have a great partner and access at our six venues. We do promote shows in outside rooms and so you know, we'll use the ticketing system that those rooms use.

Let's say you own first avenue. So traditional only a ticketing company would pay the venue for an exclusive and that's where a lot of the fee comes from. So if you're with access, how do you negotiate the fee.

That was negotiated under very.

Want? I think we negotiate our contract in twenty twenty, so very kind of stressful terms. But again, I think everybody looks for different things in their partners, right, Like some folks that are maybe more consumed, more concerned.

With with brokers will go for.

Some solutions that allow for like a waitlist or you know, that don't allow people to resell. Some people want the the reach and the kind of broad marketplace the ticketmaster has. Some people want to go with whoever the dominant seller in their market is to try to again get in front of more eyes. We really and liked the team at Access. Love Steph Streeter, I love Brian and felt like they were the best. They're the best partner for our business.

Okay, but a lot of the shows you do, the club shows are the ones that get the most attention. For fees. It's one thing if you have one hundred dollars ticket in the fee is fifteen dollars. It's another thing if you have a twenty dollars ticket and the fees are fifteen dollars.

I don't think it's first avenue we have fifteen dollars fees on twenty dollars tickets.

I will go. I will go and check that right after.

I'm not saying that you have specific but I you know, in terms of markets all over the US, this happens on a regular basis, right, And so.

Again, like the fees is negotiated between the promoter of the venue and their ticketing provider. And so I'm not privy to how people necessarily set their fees, but certainly, you know, it's key factor. I would say, when people pick up a ticketing partner.

Okay, So let's say first avenue, you own the building. Let's say for a sake of discussion, the ticket is twenty dollars. Every shows a little bit different. What would be the average fee on that.

Ticket, probably four dollars?

Okay, so very low. Okay. So club business, if you go back before your time, frequently was supported by the record companies. The record companies would buy tickets, they would put small bands on the road. That's pretty much evaporated. So therefore a lot of clubs went out of business. So what is the status of small venues today economically?

Oh, it's hard, it's difficult. You know, the bands are amazing. I feel like there is a kind of proliferation of club level bands and do to streaming, folks have kind of easier discovery tools potentially in finding bands. But the economics of a club is just I mean, I don't think it's ever been harder, or even at First Avenue, I want to say, our costs are up thirty percent from pre pandemic. You know, everything's gone up due to inflation.

Want them to have a good experience.

You don't want them to feel like somebody described a club they went into that they that have felt like a money tornado, Like when you walked in the door, they just you know, they were picking you up and spinning around trying to get every dollar out of your pocket. You know, we don't want to We don't want to do that. But the the strains on running and probably you know any small business these days are pretty intense.

So what's the overall margin?

I mean, we try to hit six percent profit margin.

That's our goal.

Wow, that's really low. What about merch? Do you take a percentage of merch?

We vary based on the rooms. You know, merch is negotiated as a deal point between the bookers and the agents when they're working out the deal.

Okay, because there is blowback, especially from smaller acts saying, hey, we're there, we're struggling. Why don't we get one hundred percent of the merch? What would you say to them?

Yeah, I mean I.

Hear that, and I you know, the counter argument to that is, you know, there's areas in the venue that are reserved. There are expenses that go along with processing merch. Like I said, it's a deal point, and we'd like

There have been all these stories in the media about younger generations consuming less alcohol. To what degree has that affected your business To what we do you see it?

We see it hugely. I think I was on a panel. I was on a music biz panel and kind of throughout that point when I thought was kind of like a throw away point and actually get it ended up getting picked up by by Billboard and had some TikTok memes. So we're seeing it especially in our younger audience. You know, the older audience, they're still drinking to show to two beers, two drinks per person, but the younger audience, you know, the bars are just anemic these days, and so there's

Beer ten bucks on a drink.

The other theory is that, you know, this generation, they spent their formative kind of drinking education years in COVID, and so they might not even they don't necessarily.

Know what they drink. They don't know what they like to drink. They don't know the.

Structure the systems of going up to a bar and ordering, and that might be a little bit overwhelming, and so they just choose to not engage at all. Obviously, there's a mental health or a wellness which is beyond important, and.

Not drinking seems to.

I would say that it's great for your mental health and wellness, but not everyone seems to agree these days. So there's a number of different factors that I think going into effect of seeing our numbers at maybe half some some shows half two a third of what they would have been pre pandemic, you.

Just own that or do you think of some other way to make up the revenue?

You have to make up the revenue.

I mean, if you don't make up the revenue, you're not going to be in business, right, So, you know, a lot of folks are I think after after the Billboard article came out, I got every single NA option under the sun reaching out, So certainly, you know, increasing the NA.

Options non alcoholic sorry, yes.

Not alcoholics, so non alcoholic beers, non alcoholic cocktails, root beer, et cetera. So also we're you know, advertising more like drink specials to make it easy to order at the bar, like okay, here's the here's the drink of the night. You don't need to think about what you're ordering, you don't need to stress out about it. Here, here's two options that you choose from. And so trying a very you know, a varied degree.

How did you end up owning and running First Avenue.

So my father was part of was best friends with the founder named Alan finger Hut. They were they would actually went to elementary school together, so they were best friends in nineteen seventy when Alan inherited a bunch of money and thought it would be a great idea to open a rock club. And so my dad came from a very you know, working class. His parents owned a

Then. Okay, so when you were growing up, was your father just the accountant for the club or was it like, hey, you can get into the club whenever you want, and you went all the time and took your friends.

Yeah, sorry, I said that, long story. I did not grow up, as you know, the daughter of a rock club owner. Certainly not how my kids are growing up right where it's a cold, snowy day, let's take a

Pick me up.

Okay, you go to college in New York. People have no idea how sophisticated Minnesota is, although I will say, as cold as it is in the winter, that's how fucking hot it is in the summer. But what do people not understand about Minnesota.

First of all, it is thirty five degrees today in January, and it feels like a fucking miracle. So it's not always cold in the winter people. What don't people understand? I mean, it is heaven on Earth. I think there's no better place in the world than Minnesota in like June July. So what the winter gives us? Yes, yes, it is cold. It is usually exceptionally cold, but it gives us a heartiness and an optimism and a real sense of gratitude because then the summer comes and it's

To what degree do those two things affect music business, both cold in the winter and wanting to be outside in the summer.

So it's interesting we you know, looked at our capacity sold. You know, shows in January and Minnesota do exceptionally well, there's not there's not a lot of them, but the shows that we do have actually end up being you know, ten or fifteen percent sold above where our shows the rest of the year are. Like I said, I think having the inevitability of winter and having the experience of such extreme cold gives people a sense of joy and

So you end up leaving New York going to Los Angeles. How was that?

The weather was great? The weather was fucking phenomenal, you know. I I went to NYU and I graduated right around September eleventh, and there weren't in jobs.

And my friend most of my friends had gone to film school and.

They were moving to LA So I moved to LA and had, you know, met some really wonderful friends.

I met. My wife had a.

Really beautiful experience, but personally, I'm just being thrilled to be back in Minnesota.

Okay, your wife is in the film business, which is really concentrated in LA. How do you manage this?

Yeah?

She you know, I commuted for almost a decade. I would take the Red Eye out on Sunday and then come back on the seven fifty Thursday night flight. And so now we're in Minnesota. She's actually commuting. Her job works out of New York, so she's going to New York every other week. And maybe it's a secret to a happy marriage. You know, we've been together maybe sixteen years and are probably happier than ever before.

How'd you meet her?

We were set up old school?

Really was it instant romance?

It took a few dates.

I was just out of a relationship and she was newly sober, so we had a few months to figure all that out.

And what is it like being an out powerful business woman today is to what degree is their homophobia that you encounter?

I'm really lucky.

I mean I think going from you know, n Yu to the film industry to Minneapolis, have not encountered so much homophobia and and feel like, you know, again, maybe stepping into a family business and stepping into a thriving business and having such a great team. I feel very fortunate to have not experienced really that much negative negative impacts due to gender sexuality.

What about sexism, It's certainly there.

It's certainly there. I remember, you know, a fair amount. I'm I like to, you know, make relationships and reach out, and certainly there have been a few missing, mistaken outreaches. But you know, at least nothing outright that I that I can recall, which I again feel like I have to just express how grateful I am because I know that's not a lot of people's experiences.

Okay, so your father has this stroke. Are you coming back to Minneapolis to run the club reluctantly? Or are you saying this is what I want to do, or you say, well i'll manage it for a month. What what goes for your head?

I was just stepping in to make sure, you know, nothing got messed up while he was sick. And really my thought process was, okay, there's you know, two big companies.

I wonder who I'm going to.

Sell this to because I was pretty happy in my career and I just met my wife and pretty settled, and so I was like, okay, I wonder you know which liven sure e g. I wonder this will this will be fun. Who's who's going to be the highest better? And again, like I said, I just stepped to the main room and kind of the impact of what First Avenue is, what it means, the legacy that it carries,

And you have a sibling too, right, yep?

I have an older sister. She's not involved. She's in Hood River.

Organ okay, and to what degree she involved? Financially?

I own one hundred percent.

Okay. So this is a sophisticated business. People think, oh, yeah, you sell tickets, you open the door, you make money. So your father is out of the picture for a while. You're there how do you come up to speed and what mistakes do you make?

Oh, every mistake, every mistake under the book. I was lucky that my dad ended up recovering within a few months, and so I really got, you know, to learn under him and to watch him manage. But in terms of I also I am not a talent buyer, and that I think is the hardest job in the world, and really the quarterback of the music club world. So I again was so lucky to step in the most incredible team at First Avenue, Nate and Sonya and Ashley just.

Really really incredible, incredible folks.

So how long does a concert buyer last at First Avenue?

How long?

Like how long are they in the venue?

How long before they move on?

Hopefully never the concert buyers? I mean, the thing about Minnesota is people we call it a boomerang state because people who grew up here, even if they leave, like like me, they tend to come back. And once people move here, they tend to not leave.

Because it's it's.

So amazing, as I've talked about before, and so we have our customers, you know, from the time that they first discover live music. I'm fourteen fifteen, We do you know the rock and roll Playhouse for kids? You know music, So we try to get them at age two, right, we'll.

Tell us about the rock and roll of playhouse.

Oh it's really amazing, you know, working with the Brooken Bulf folks. But so it's Saturday or Sunday mornings a theme, so Taylor Swift for kids or you know my son.

I have a nine year old son.

He's obsessed with Green Day, Like it's all all he listens to, all he ever wants to play. It's just his the beal and end all of his musical experience right now. So we did the you know rock and roll Playhouse plays Green Day and it was all punk music and kids showing up in mohawks. It was the most fun. And really kids just get to come and run around. I think our theory is, well, they can't do any they can't do much worse damage than drunk people can do, so this won't be that big of

Not just something you do, not just you know, not just something.

To avoid your everyday life, but really like as kind of the heart and soul of what makes life worth living. So the earlier that we can introduce kids to that experience and have them see the joy and the positivity and all the amazing things that live music can do for your soul and for your well being, the better.

So let's say, first avenue to make the numbers work, how many dates do you want a year?

Yeah, so in the different venues, you know, we have different KPIs you try to hit.

I think first.

Avenue tell people what that is key performance indicators, so you know, metrics, metrics.

That we try to hit.

So we have you know, the seven Street End Tree, which is our two hundred and fifty cap room. You know, we want to do three hundred and twenty days. We want to effectively. I think last year maybe we did three hundred and sixty days, So we want to be open almost every day. The main room, which is fifteen

That's fifteen fifty.

We want to do maybe one hundred and eighty one hundred and ninety shows a year. We have a Palace Theater which is twenty three hundred. It's a ga floor and a seated balcony. You know, maybe we're trying to do sixty shows a year there. So we vary it based on the room.

So you come to Minnesota, you have one venue, how do you end up with seven venues?

It turns out.

Running a venue is really hard and a lot of people don't like to do it. So, you know, I stepped in in two thousand and nine. We had first avenue in the seventh Street Entry, and we were booking

Their career and their fan base. So, you know, we started.

Doing shows at rooms around town, and we were doing a whole lot at this this venue called the Turf Club. So you know, the economics of the business. If you don't oh, if you don't have the inside, it's pretty hard to make it work. So we just met with the owner and he said, you know what, I got two bars, and my wife says, that's one too many. So we bought the Turf Club and then we uh the cityct polishly came to us and wanted to open the or renovate the Palace. Theater had been dark for

And well and.

With the full way to the community of mind. So that's how that's how we grew and then were developing an amphitheater. Will start construction soon hopefully, and so that'll be an eighty two hundred boutique urban amphitheater right on the Mississippi River in a neighborhood called North Minneapolis. It's

Okay, you're the operator to what degree in these cases do you own the facility?

We own all the buildings. We have one lease, but we owned the properties for the others.

Okay, and Jerry Michaelson as your partner in one theater. Where did the money come for the rest of the places.

It came from loans and it came from you know, we I am fortunate in that, you know, money is not my as an owners, my motivator, and so I put all profits and all revenue kind of back back into the companies.

Okay, you talk about building an amphitheater. Generally speaking, amphitheaters are controlled by Live Nation and even people in markets where they or not have had hard times. So how do you plan to compete?

That is a.

Great question, all the more reason to come back on your podcast in three years and I can give you the update.

Okay, then let's flip the story over. You like to be the Minnesota partner for all these acts that used to mean, well, you know, you played them in the club, you played them in the Excel Center. That doesn't really happen anymore, right.

No, no, it doesn't.

And I think maybe we're the you know, fortunate or not fortunate to not have that kind of arena backdrop. You know, we kind of started with Fresh Eyes a decade or so ago, but certainly, you know, listening to your podcasts and knowing the history of the industry, that that has been an impact for sure.

And you're an independent there in the Minneapolis area. If they don't go with you, what's your competition.

Live Nation and the other We have other independent venues in town also, but Live Nation has competing venues at most levels.

And so how do you end up getting the talent as opposed to Live Nation.

I think a combination of ky, you're going to make me reveal all my secrets.

I don't know if I can do that.

No, you know, no way, you don't say anything you don't want to say. But is it because you're more localized, or you have a better sales bitch, or the numbers are better? Generally? What gets you the talent?

Like I said, I'm not a talent buyer, But I do think that we have the best team of anyone anywhere in the country. I mean, I just can't say enough amazing things about you know, everyone who works at First Avenue works there because they really care, you know, because they love the place and they want to see it succeed and they want to do the very best they can for the mission. And I also think we you know, we have the best rooms without a doubt.

Be a part of it.

They see what we've built here, They see the job that we do. They see that, you know, they know everything is going to be one hundred percent taking care of all eyes dotted, all teas cross. They want to play the best rooms. We just put in, you know, the brand new state of the art sound system, the first L two installation in the country. We have, you know, the best facilities, and we go out of our way to create the best experiences for bands and for artists and for customers.

Okay, as one goes north in Minnesota becomes more rural, there is Dluth. You go up north, you know there are other things. Do you want to expand do you do shows there? Or are you Minneapolis Saint Paul focused?

Right, we do a couple of shows in Duluth.

I think, you know, we will try to service the artists wherever they want to play. We kind of we view our responsibility as making sure that the artist has the best experience and plays the right room in the right city at the right town. And so we have done shows in Duluth. We've done shows, like I said, at outdoor venues, at other folks venues. It's not you know, in the plans right now to build our own venue. But like I said, like we want to service the bands.

So if I'm coming to Minneapolis and I can sell out First Avenue and I want to play more in your area, how many places.

Can I play larger than First Avenue or No?

No, Like I come, I can sell out First Avenue Minneapolis, I say, Dana, I'd like to play more in the Minnesota area. Do you say, well, you know, after you sell a thousand tickets, maybe de Luthen that's it. Or are there are other markets in Minnesota that you can play.

Many? Yeah, the Twin Cities are the major metropolitan area. There is a five thousand capacity Amphitheater, you know, maybe an hour north. There's Rochester that has the Mayo that they've got room down there. There's Mankato. So there's other like tertiary markets that people can play in Minnesota.

And that Amphitheater is that a Live Nation.

Amphitheater, No, that's a man at Amphtheater.

Okay, so you don't do the buying, what do you do?

I do the kind of management, oversight, business operations, new venues, the amphitheaters is taking up you know, a large majority of my time, but also kind of staff management, and again like the financial side of things.

Okay, everything's different post COVID. But how often are you showing up at these venues and at these shows?

Oh? I try to get to four venues a week, or you know, I try to go out two nights a week more, you know, in this in the busier months.

And does every employee know you?

Most do?

I'm trying to think sometimes, you know, if we have a new employee or we have about four hundred employees. So I don't want to say every single one, but I like to talk to the employees. I like to introduce myself, so I try to make sure that that I meet them.

Are you working seven days a week?

Yeah?

Of course we have all right.

That's why I'm asking. And you know, there's a great line at Katzenberg at Disney. If you don't come in on Saturday, don't even think about coming in on Sunday. But so when do you start and when do you finish. I mean, is this typical all day all the time?

You know, I am available all day all the time. I try to eat dinner with my kids every night, so I try to you know, be home from you know, six to eight. That's kind of my window. It's my favorite time of the entire day. It's it's when I am you know, my most happiest and just you know again seeing them getting filled.

In on their day.

So but yeah, I'll work from eight am to you know, midnight sometimes.

So what is the future? You're the head of the of Diva. What is the future of the small venue in the music business?

You know, I'm super excited. I also, you know, want to say I stepped down as board president a few months ago. Andre Perry is the new board president. We have a great executive director. I'm super excited about the group purchasing organization that we're rolling out. I think that the future of the small club is always gonna, you know, lay in the networking communications, in the community of talking to other folks and seeing how other people are operating

Now, the boomers were the first ones who really started to go to clubs regularly, the blow up of rock and roll, et cetera. Now is there going into the sunset. It feels confident about the audience and the acts.

I think I.

Feel confident in club's abilities to adapt to what customers want. I think that's a really great question because we know that your generations, they're more you know, focused on the social media elements and sometimes on like the more.

Flashier show. Is that that's the right.

Word, or like the kind of once in a lifetime experiences. But I have absolute faith in the power of music and the power of a song and that live music experience to totally transform somebody's life and to transform not only just their like daily experience, but in you know,

And if you do twelve hundred shows a year or how many are unprofitable.

Oh man, more than I would care to admit in a public podcast. But like I said, we're we're We do shows for a lot of different reasons, right, Like we all know Minneapolis went through a really hard couple of years. It's still going through an exceptionally challenging time. I like to keep our clubs open. I think, you know, giving folks hours to work. I know downtown Minneapolis is safer when we're open. We want to generate that economic

And how big is your private business private events?

Yeah, not anything.

Really not No, We're we're but we're we're doing a lot of you know, bands and ticketed events are our priority, and so they're always going to have They're always gonna have first priority on our calendar. They're always going to be who we want to cater to.

And then what would you tell to young women if they wanted to get into this business?

You know, I do a lot of informational interviews and mostly with young women, and I would say, you know, my advice is always you've got to work really hard. Nothing just comes to you. You know, it's fun, but it's also don't underestimate the time it takes and the sacrifices, and you know the fact that like if you want to work nine to five and you know, go to the gym over lunch, and that this might not be

And you talked about when you first came back to Minneapolis, when your father was ill about gussing it all up to sell to live Nation or age. How long do you plan to do this? Would you ever sell? Do you see your kids running the business?

You know, my kids, if they want to, it would be nice for them to have the option. I have a lot of fun and I absolutely love, love, love what I do, and I'm really proud of what we built, and i love my team, and so you know, we're just really again, we're enjoying what we do. We're enjoying our impact on the community. We're enjoying seeing these bands. And you know, my favorite thing in the entire world is,

Two best shows since you've been an owner.

Two best shows?

Oh, I'm gonna have to plead the fifth.

Okay, just talk about one or two highlights?

Okay, perfect, that's that's a great that's a great question. You know, we had the Pretenders and the Entry in September. That was a bucket list once in a lifetime, just holy shit. I can't believe I am here right now moment. I think, you know, Lizzo came up through First Avenue and so seeing the rise of Lizzo's career.

From you know, when we promoted.

Her album release show to I don't know, one hundred people or whatever, and then you know, watching her sill out the main room to then come into the palace and seeing a true superstar in the making that was that was a real joy to behold as well.

You are so warm and open and smiling. If we're there settling a show, are you ever a hard ass? Or is this who you are twenty four or seven?

Well, maybe there's.

A reason I'm not a talent buyer, right, I'm not settling that show. I'm buying you a drink and asking about how your kids are.

Okay, Dana, I know that you got to go back keeping Minnesodah's Live Entertainment Business. Live has been wonderful talking to you, and I know that this is just the middle for you. There's so much left to do. I want to thank you for talking to my audience.

Thank you so much for having me, and I'm glad to hear it. I feel like I'm just just getting started to.

Okay, till next time. This is Bob left sets