Daryl Hall

of Dallas has experience, uh come to the stage. And my first thought was my old friend Todd Rundgren. And because it really is a perfect combination. Um, you know, his his musical history and mine are a sort of very unique and very unique and similar, and and uh it's a great It wound up being a really great show. Uh. He uses my band, and then we do stuff together and stuff separately, and it's all really it's all really working out very well. Now. You're both from the Philly

area in the late sixties. Uh, Todd was from Upper Darby. He had the band Naz were you aware of all that? Did you like that? Did you know Todd back then? I didn't know Todd back in the in the late sixties.

He worked, uh, he was doing that stuff, right, he was in NAZ and what he struck stopped at all those bands, which I was aware of, but I was I was definitely well ensconced in the world of Philly soul, you know, with Gamble and Huff and Tommy Bell and people like that, and and UH and and all the all the radio stations that were involved in that UH, in that UH genre. And so we didn't really know each other, and we met in UH. We really met in New York in the early seventies, appropriately at at

a movie showing of Fantase. And how did Todd end up uh doing the producing the third Holland Oldts album, war Babies. Well, it started with that. You know. I thought I had just moved to New York and I I was experiencing New York. You know, I was really

full of beans. It was like Philadelphia was one experience I had left that and I said, I want to do something completely different and really opened my mind up and and opened my mind to the sound of New York when I said the sound, you know, the the actual street sounds of New York. And I wanted to make a record to write songs that reflected that. And I was aware of Todd's he had just started working with Utopia, and I was I went to see him, uh a bunch of times, really, and I was so

impressed with what he was doing. And also that was what he was in his his role. He was he was, he was he was producing everybody from Alice Cooper to the New York Dolls to god knows who, you know, a million people. And Uh, I said, okay, well, why don't this this on paper sounds good? You know, an ex Philadelphia moved to New York. Obviously he's gonna understand, you know, creative person. And let's try and see what happens. And what war Babies album is the result of what happened?

You know? Well, that was your third album on Atlantic, and it was not commercially successful. Now, you know most people when things are not happening, they sort of break apart from those people. How did you maintain a relationship with Todd? Uh? I have always respected time and and it was just because it wasn't a commercially accessive, accessible or with commercially accepted album that that really wasn't what

my agenda was about with that album. Um, I was naive enough and uh idealistic enough to just say, okay, let's move on. I did that. That was that was an interesting experience, and let's let me use that and and uh incorporate that into whatever the future is. And I never really lost track of Todd over the years, and and uh and so we we've sort of maintained this kind of loose relationship for all those years. Now ultimately you and your partner produced the Hall and Oates

albums together, Daryl Hall and John Oates. Uh what did you learn from working with Todd? Um? I learned what not to do? Don't know? So what shouldn't you do? Try try and be accessible, don't don't be inaccessible for its own sake. Uh, that that is a lesson I learned. Uh It Todds of stubborn, a stubborn guy, and he he has a a version to uh to being easily accepted. And I used to have arguments with him about it. Said, Todd, you know this song, this could work out really well

and a lot of people would like it. He and he did everything he could have like Funk with that idea. You know. Uh, It's just it's his personality and he's in his mellowness and age now he he has accepted the idea that you could be accessible, which is even a better reason for us to be working together on stage. Okay, do you think if someone else had produced War Babies or you've done it yourself, it would have been more commercially viable. It would have been more commercially viable, but

it would have been the same album. Maybe I don't even know if it would have been the same songs. Uh it was. I tend to write for projects, and uh that was written with the idea that I was going to work with Todd in New York and New York environment, and and uh I may have written a completely different set of songs on my own with somebody else or whatever. You know. Tell me about writing for projects, what do you mean there? Well, I I don't write.

I mean I do write randomly, but I tend to not not focus my writing until I know that I'm going to either work with somebody or there's some project that's coming up. Um, and then I write with that in mind. It's sort of like energizes me and I start writing like crazy and you know, coming up with ideas and do this all of a piece, and uh that that tends to come out. I like to keep a momentum going. I recently, i've uh deviated from that.

And I didn't like that because I was doing a lot of false starts because I'm so busy with other things, and I would get all excited about something to do it, and then it would sort of like sit on the shelf, and uh, I don't like doing that. I like working for the project, putting out the project, keeping the enthusiasm going for the project, and taking it through to its completion. So what would be the time window prior to going

into the studio we call an album a project? When would you get excited and then start to compose when I knew I was gonna start doing it, you know, when when it when it started getting scheduled and I knew who I was gonna work with. Uh, And and even in the early stages of the recordings, I would uh, my my mind would be on fire, you know. And that's and I write things right, you know, very spontaneously and quickly. Uh Uh. That's usually the way as worked

for me. Okay, And you say you change the content depending on who you're working with, Yeah, to some degree, I changed the mood. I might change. I won't change the emotional uh source of of the song that that comes from me and my experiences. But as far as production goes and even my the melodies I choose, with the chords I choose, it really has to do a lot with with with with with with the moment, with with what what I'm trying to um with the people

that I'm working with. Really, Okay, let's go back to the beginning. You grow up in the Philly area, in town and the suburbs where I grew up in Pottstown, which is a Chest County and it was it was an industrial town with farms all around it. And I sort of had my feet on both sides. Uh uh. I lived in amidst farm land, a bicycle right away from the deepest neighborhoods that you want to deal with. And uh so I've always been a sort of a rural urban person, you know, a foot in both sides.

And what did your parents do for a living? My mother wore it was a singer and and she was in a band. And she worked also at a radio station, the Pottstown Radio Station. And uh, and my father was around a pattern making department because Potstown was at that time was a very industrial town. And how many kids in the family. I have a sister that's it five years younger than me. And what's your relationship with her? Extremely close? Anything you see visually? Uh, ever is my

collaboration with her? You know, she's a graphic a graphic designer, artist, ah, many many things, and she she sort of controls my visual world. Okay, I'm a little younger than you, and I remember listening to the early sixties radio and knowing some of those tracks, listening to sports and then the Beatles hit and it really took off. What was your experience listening to radio and getting into music. Well, in Philadelphia it's a really unique environment, or it was a

really unique environment, continues to be really to some degree. Uh. And in the when I was a teenager, pop radio was not popular. Uh in Philadelphia people the hip Wi Zi anyway, it wasn't popular with those people. And and if you were cool, you listened to you either listened to soul of music which was everywhere, and that was that was baby food, or even the precursor of that, which was was street corner music, which was the acapella

music and doo wop and early early vocal rock and roll. Uh. And there was a guy named Jerry Blavitt who was a very very influential person to people who cared about music. And I was just a total devu tea of that, and I was just I was sort of a street corner singer and uh um. And that was my beginnings doing that. And then that's closely aligned with the whole soul thing, you know, I mean vocal groups, uh, whether

they be the Temptations or or the Dandeliers. You know, it's it's it's it's just a progression of the same kind of music. But we rejected. The Beatles were not even thought about in Philadelphia until later later period, let's say, around Revolver Stargard Pepper, people started saying, oh, the Beatles have something interesting to offer Philadelphians. Before that, they just looked at him like a bar band. Okay, you say you were street corner singer, You're living in a rural area.

What did that literally look like? Being a Street corner singer. Well, I my parents lived in a rural area, but my all her, all their friends lived in black neighborhood in Philadelphia. I mean sorry in pots Uh so I would I've sort of lived. Sometimes I would sleep at home, but I would, especially in the summertime, I would just be over there on on on Walnut Street in Pottstown. And uh and it was it was. It was music on the streets. That's the best way I could put it.

It was it was an integrated neighborhood. And uh and it was the kind of music I liked, everything from gospel music and church music from the corner churches to uh uh two people playing record players in their houses on the front porches and stuff like that. Okay, you come from a soul influence. What about doo wop or Dion and the Belmonts where it was part of your consciousness? Was that something different? Well? Do Deanna go abouts were way too pop? I mean that that that's uh that

kind of thing. Yes, I do want music. Vocal group man, you know, people just standing around um and and that kind of stuff. Okay, so you're growing up. What kind of kid? Are you? A good student? Bad student? Have a lot of friends out you know, an outsider. I was an outsider. I was a restless, a restless person. Uh, I was you know, I'm a I know you know this, Bob. I'm an avid reader, like a book worm and in the story and and all that kind of thing. And that put me in odds as a child. You know,

I was a good student. Yeah, very good student until I so I got to be a teenager and then I became a very restless and indifferent student. And uh, I was more interested in, uh hanging out than I was uh doing my homework. So at what point did you learn to play musical instrument? I started playing piano at five, and uh, and I played. I took you know, former piano lessons until I was about twelve or thirteen.

And uh then my mother or for some bizarre reason, decided that she wanted me to play the trombone and I and I picked up the trombone. And I pretty much hated the trombone, you know, I mean, what cornball instrument. But I wanted to play the saxophone. But she said something about your mouth shape isn't right for you know,

why didn't I get a saxophone? I don't know, but uh uh, So I stopped the piano lessons and then started playing on my own and writing songs and and becoming you know, learning sort of playing self taught, so you know, self teaching. And then when I when I was I went to tump of University music school so that I resumed my more formal piano studies. And I was actually a piano opera major. And I went there for five years. And but you didn't graduate, right? I

quit a few weeks before in graduation. What was the reason there? I had a choice between having to complete this rigorous UH student teaching program or playing a bar band. And I was in a I thought it was a good bar band, and and my supervisor says, you can't do both. You have to choose your life. Either you're going to do this music education thing or you or you're going to be a rock and roll singer. And I said, okay, you just made my mind by now.

Frequently when someone has as much success as you do, their old college reaches out and gives him an honorary degree or something. Has temple reached out. Yeah I didn't. I didn't bother with it. I've been I've been offered honorary honorary degrees by Berkeley and Temple, and I just I'm not interested. I don't care. Okay. So when you're going to Temple, you're then living in Philly. Oh yeah. I moved to Philadelphia when I was a seventeen and

immediately jumped into the heart of the whole thing. And uh, that was the that was the great thing about being going to Tumpy University where in North Philadelphia, at five blocks from the Uptown Theater and uh and you know, and in the middle of the one of the deepest black neighborhoods in the city. And uh I lived in inhabited that area for five years. And and beyond that, of course, uh and that that really quote of sort

of formed me. You know, I was I was. I mentioned what I was into in Pottstown, but then when I got to Affiliate really just kind of locked in and I immediately met, uh with within a few months, I met Gamble and huff And and Tommy Bell and people like that, and uh so it all it all

started formalizing and and you know, coalescing. Okay, So when you went to Temple on this music program, what did do you think do you think, well, you know, I got to do something now, or I want to do something you know more class to call, probably want to mark time before I become a rock and roller soul star. What was in your mind? Well, No, I was learning

things in school. I learned how to be a ranger and and uh you know, I did a lot of sophicio and you know, I home home my craft, uh formally, but at the same time, I was sitting in the corner, and I was hanging out and making records with the Temp Tones and and uh and and and hanging out with Tommy Bell and people like that. So it was that to me, that was my real education. Was was was was being introduced and and working with with with the early Philadelphia sound. Well, how did you meet tom

Bell and Gamble and Huff. I had a band, We formed a temple called the Temp Talents. It was a vocal group and uh we they used to have just like the Apollo in New York. They used to have talent shows when I believe it was Wednesday nights and uh we uh did did a talent show at the at the Uptown Theater and we won the talent show and the prize was you got to make a record with Kenny and Leon and and uh so they had

this you know, small label, Arctic Records. We went into the sport track studio Virtue Sound Studios and uh uh Frankie Virtue Studio and uh uh and and we made uh we made a record. And uh, this guy Jimmy Bishop, who was a DJ and one of the top DJs in phil in the in w D as in Philadelphia, uh picked us up and started sort of semi managing us. And uh and you know, we had a chart record in w D A S charts, R and B charts and uh. Through that, I can't remember how I met Tommy.

I actually can't remember, but immediately got along with him and I used to go and hang out and he used to have an office at Cameo Parkway. This was before Philadelphia National and H and I used to go and sit there and listen to him play the piano and come up with ideas. And uh so I certainly learned a lot from Tommy Bell. What year are we in? Uh sixty? Okay? The fact that you were white? Did they see color? Were you the only white guy? Was it accepted? Was it integrated in those days. That was

it was, it was integrated. I never I never once had a problem with any of that stuff back in the day, and I never have since then. So you have a dream, you have a record, it's on the chart. What did that feel like? I mean, it's played on the radio. It was wild. I remember I was walking on on Broad Street. Uh. And these kids, they're really cool kids, like you know, it's cool Italian kids. They look like it could have been on American dand Stand

or something. And then and they're walking down the street and they're singing girl and I Love You and they're like harmonizing. And I ran up to him and I said, hey, man, that's my song, and that's my song and they went, oh yeah, I get the funk out of here. You know, So you have that one success, then what about a follow up? Oh? I don't know. I wasn't thinking about follow ups. I My brain wasn't. It's never been there, Bob.

You know, I'm not a commercially oriented person. And the irony is that I've had such success commercially, but I don't really care about that stuff. I don't write for those kind of with with that in mind, Um, I U I we made another record, you know, and and it was called say These Words of Love. He didn't do anything. And then I moved on and the Tempts broke up. And then, uh, like I said, I moved on. Okay, when you moved on, you know, you had the singing groups.

At what point did you form a band? And it was more you know, rock and soul. I never really well, I was in a bar band for a while and that was what I quit the Temple for. And it was called Paling the Profits and they were that was the closest thing to a bar band I was ever in. And uh, I don't know. I didn't really get along with Paler that well, he's a he's a good guy, but I you know, we we bumped heads. So that

didn't last too long. And uh then I started just sort of kicking around and and and using my connections. I started hanging out with uh with in Stigma Sound and doing backup work, doing on the odd keyboard playing and things like that, odds and ends and uh and and sort of hooked up with this guy named John Madera who was his One of his claim to fame was he wrote it at the Hop okay, and you know, and he wrote you Don't on Me with Leslie Gore and one to three with Letty you know, yeah, I

mean that's that's John Madera. You know, he wrote those songs and he had a production of production and publishing company, and I sort of attached myself to that, and he gave me a little money occasionally, and I played, you know, I do sessions for like thirty bucks and stuff like that, and and well I lived in a place it only cost eighty five dollars a month, so it was it wasn't that hard to live and uh and then I uh uh yeah, the end of all that is when

I met John and we decided to play some songs together acoustically and uh and we started playing in coffee houses and places like that. And that's when that Okay, when you met John and you formed men and playing pistically was that because it was the moment the late sixties what was going on? Because that seems to be a little bit of a change from your soul background.

It was a change. I think that uh, meeting John, I was the reason that I got together with him is because he was involved in a scene that I didn't know anything about I knew nothing about bluegrass music or folk music or any of that kind of stuff. It just didn't it wasn't, you know, it was invisible

to me. And uh, I was sort of fascinated by it because I was still a student, you know, and I was trying to expand my mind and I was learning, trying to learn about things that I didn't know that and I did gravitate the bluegrass music because it's it's it's over kind of soul. I mean, bluegrass is very soul for music. And we started I started listening to that. He started turning me onto all that stuff. And that

was really how we form related in our early relationship. Musically, was my natural what did I do, you know, my my background, my soul thing, and and his what I what they call these days Americana, you know, and and mixing those two things together. Okay, you're doing this. It's just one of the many things you're doing or you're saying, wait a second, this is my road to success. Well, at that point we were sort of doing both. I

was still with Gamble and Huff doing stuff. But one day, I mean, I can remember this, I had made a decision and Kenny. He came to He came to me, He said, do you want do you want to work with Philadelphia International? You want to be a songwriter, you want to be an artist? And I I said no, I said, I think I want to move to New York with Oates and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna take what we do and go out of Philadelphia. I just wanted. I wanted to expand outside of Philadelphia. I

don't know why, but I did. And so that was a decision made and we moved to New York and then all that other ship started. Okay, did you let me stay? When you're in Philadelphia? What is your rep is you? Are you known as that guy who's got that voice or you're just one of the people. You know, How were you perceived? Uh? Yeah, I was perceived that way, that that guy, that guy that sings that way. Uh I was. You know, it was a relatively small environment

and community, and uh uh yeah, I got it. I had. I had a reputation for doing what I do. Now, for those on the inside, they know that success is not accidental and usually it's a matter of relationships. Working in religious anybody's working in mand is not successful knows that, so are you relatively a hustler? Connector to what degree? Was John like that? What was going on? I am a person who takes advantage of opportunities whenever I can find them, and if they if if I feel like

they make sense to me. I'm certainly more that way than Oates was. Okay, so you moved to New York, no manager, no band, Where do you live? What's the first step? Well, I did sort of have a manager. Okay, so we'll go back to that. I I did not get along with John Madera. Ultimately we parted company not so well. And he but the one thing that he did for me is he had a temporary he used to lease his publishing out and at the time he at least his publishing publishing out the Chapel Music up

in New York. And I went up there and with him to go to the office one time I don't know why, and met this kid, uh named Tommy Montola, and ah, he was years old and he had an office the size of a telephone booth and uh, I don't know, I'm not even sure if that was his office. But anyway, he said, what's going on, you know, and we we became sort of started talking, became friends, and he heard what I did and he said, basically said, why don't you move to New York City and I'll

manage you? And he was years old. Well I was only twenty two and h and I said, Okay, I can't stand what I'm doing, so let's go for it. And he started pretending to be a manager. And uh.

One thing that happened that chapel, which was very useful, is that this guy named Norm Wiser, who is his boss, hooked hooked me up with a trip and John too too with with a trip to the West Coast and we went to l A and we started auditioning to people, four people, and we uh we wound up with this guy named Errol her mc grath who had a little tiny label called Clean Records, and even he used to be sort of a he had a salad of musicians

and artists and all that. And we played for him and he said, would you like to sign to our label? And we said yes. And then he for whatever his reasons that this is a part behind the scenes that I don't know about. Somehow that parlayed into me auditioning for a Reef Martin and an Amen and Jerry Greenberg U in New York City. And the next thing I knew, Earl gave up his claim to us and I was on Atlantic Records. Well of course, or or all ended

up running Rolling Stones Records, which was through Atlantic. Who knows what the story was there? What year we in? Okay, this this is about n Okay? So was it you and John that are out there? Yeah? This is this is a whole notes story. Tommy makes a deal with Atlantic Records. Tommy didn't have the ability to make that question. He was twenty one years old. No, No, this guy Role McGrath made a deal. He roma grath said, check

these guys out. I sat down to a broken piano and aid for a Reef Marten with with with the flu and and and and am it And they said you're signed, buddy. And that's how it happened. Okay, who made the deal for you? Who? Need you have a lawyer? What? How did that happen? Yeah? I had a lawyer and I can't remember his name. I did have a lawyer. Yes, a lawyer was involved. Okay. Frequently when someone is knocked

around as much as you have. If you have any success, somebody comes out and says, I have paper you know, you know I had a contract those songs of mind that happened to you at all. Yes, John Madera, John

Madera has been living off me for years. He claims made claims of of uh of owning demos that I did on my own and with John and with this, with these guys, this guy named Tommy Sellers, we had this kind of studio band we called Gulliver and he put them out under Hall and Oates Record early days, all on Oates and all that, and he never I never saw a dime at all. And that's that story. But yes, of course that that inevitably happens. Okay, so

you signed with Atlantic, you're making a record. We're along the line, do you have a band or if you ever have a band. Well, we started when we were playing in these tiny places. It was just the two of us, and then we we did add a drummer and and a guy who uh played upright bass, and

and an electric bass. And so by the time we actually had a this beginning of a record deal, we actually had a four piece band, and we we went in the studio with the first album with part of the with those guys to some degree, and also a Reef studio bands, you know, various people that that he liked to use for the Atlantic records. Okay, you moved from Philly to New York and with Tommy's you know, instigation.

What was it like suddenly being in New York And did you ever gain a rep in New York or just Tommy got you to go to the West coast we meet her in McGrath, etcetera. No, we we didn't really move to New York until we had already signed with Atlantic and we're we're in the process of starting to make the first record and and so we we were newcomers in town and uh we were in the Atlantic studios and uh uh like that, I mean that

was we weren't really even playing in New York. We uh, it was mostly just for recording and and then we played. We were playing in Philadelphia, we played a few other places. We weren't really playing a lot a lot at that period of time. Okay, you meet John, you ultimately lived together. You know the nature of these relationships as you kind of grow up with people, then you grow apart you're in you know, buses. How do you maintain a friendship if at all? Or how do you start to argue

over you know, this ends up being over decades. Uh, it's it's it becomes sort of very similar to brothers in my case, in John's case. You know, you get along with your brother. Sometimes you don't get along with your brother. You uh, you know you don't have to be around that person, but yet you know you see him at Christmas time? You know, hey, how you doing? And and that's that's as much as you need to do that kind of stuff. That's that's that's pretty much

describes my relationship with John. Uh. We we have experienced a lot together over the years, and we've experienced a lot separately. And time changes. Time changes things. It changes your relationship. It doesn't change certain things, uh, brothers or brothers, but time does change things. Okay, see him make a record with the wreath. You know who's some of a lot of experience and a lot of success. What was that like? And what you learn from a reef? Everything?

I learned everything from Reef. He he was, he was unbelievable. I I will never stop saying that I, uh, the best thing ever happened to me was was my relationship with Reef. He was a He was to me A Reef and Quincy Jones are the two best producers in modern music. Uh. He could do anything. He could put anything together and make it work and make it real.

His his his musical knowledge was so desparate, it was so all encompassing, h that you couldn't throw anything at him, No artist could throw anything at him that he didn't have the ability to relate to and understand and and and formulate into something coherent and and good. Um. He was a real gentleman. And I had a very close relationship with him for years and years, even after all this stuff went down, Uh, and all the way to

his death. A relationship with Okay, a lot of people say they make the first record even though you had experience in your case, and they're kind of overwhelmed and they let the producers steer them. Was that your experience? Who you have so much experience you could sort of stand up for what you wanted? Well, I I didn't know what I wanted with a Reef and the whole Oats record. I don't even like that record. If you want the truth, Uh, but what I like what a

Reef did to it. That that's the best part. The best part is a Reef of that record. Um um. It was a It was a bunch of songs that we had written while we were in school and all that, and it was sort of a compilation that we decided it was a first album, you know. So I was I was more than happy to have somebody like a Reef directing the show. Now, I'm not usually like that,

and I don't respond so well to autocratic producers. He wasn't that, by the way, but uh, I was very happy that he jumped in and made something out of that record and out of those songs. Okay, what does the label say when the first record is not really successful? They didn't. It was different times. Many they they said, don't worry about hits, just make great music. And that was what Alma said to me, and I always respect him for that. You know. They they believed in developing artists.

So next you make a band in luncheon at what's the different experience there from making the first album? Well, I we that was purpose purpose written. That was written for that project, as I was talking about earlier, and uh uh, it was a really to me, that was a whole of its album. Um, there was a lot of John's John could remat it a lot to that album,

and She's Gone is the ultimate contribution. That is the ultimate Hall of Notts song because it was written by all of notes and uh uh it was really really exquisitely produced album, interestingly produced. Uh. I don't think there's anything like it. It's a bizarre album, but in its own way. Uh. And I'm I'm I continue to be very proud of that album. I think that was a great album and it and it defines whatever. And if you want to talk about Hall and Oates, that's that's

the record to pay attention to. Now. Frequently when someone writes a classic, they know it. And did you know She's Gone was a classic? And how did you feel about the fact that it didn't get traction at that time? I don't think anybody knows they read a classic until after the fact. That's impossible to know. I knew that I were a groups. We wrote a good song. A reef his eyes lit up the first time I played it. I sat down and played that that riff that I

play on the on the piano. I knew there was something good about it, and uh I uh was what's the word I was? I was patient enough to let it, let the cards fall, you know. I mean the first thing that happened was it got covered by a bunch of people. Uh even Lou Rawls covered it, you know. Uh Tavaris had a hint with it, um and and And it wasn't until Sarah smiled at anybody really focused on it as as as a Darrel and Johns song, although on quote underground radio and it got a lot

of play back in those days. Okay, since who owned your publishing at that point, well that's always been a key subject. Uh, I don't even know. I don't even know what. I wasn't paying it. I was stupid, like many people were stupid, and I wasn't paying much attention to my publishing. I didn't even understand publishing back then. When did you learn about publishing? Too late? Too late to who owns your songs? Today? Uh? I owned them

and the other seventy yeah right now? BMG. Okay, just so I know of the publishing such that if you write the song, you get seventy five cents on the dollar. No, I get period yeah, okay. And b MG does not own it, it's just licensed to b MG. Real they owned Okay. So out, let's assume you stop working tomorrow only only owning only you're publishing. Is that enough to have you make ends meet? Oh? Yeah, probably is okay?

So you make the second album, you make the third album, At what point do you realize there's gonna be no future in Atlantic? And how did you end up at our c A. Well, it was it was ah, it was more business. I again, this was more Tommy Matola

talking to people. You know, he talked to us, guy Mike bernick Er and and and I mean I kind of remember these names, uh at our c A and I think they offered us a lot of money to leave, and I think Jerry Greenberg said it's okay, we're not it's not really it's not really clicking yet, and we'll let it go. And I'm not quite sure how that all went down, but that's that's sort of what happened. Well, I don't know to what degree you were conscious, but at the time Our c H did not have a

good reputation for breaking acts. I didn't know ship. All I know is they were giving us you know, Matt All, I was incredibly ignorant, Bob. That's all I can say. Okay, So how did you How did you approach the first album in r C A differently from how you approached the records on Atlantic Um. I can't remember because Chris Bond, uh oh, I was working. We had a guitar player named Christopher Bond, and he was active when they abandoned Legendent record and he said let me produce you and

I said okay. And it was basically he was the band's guitar player and he was very talented guy. And and uh uh, I don't know what else to say about it. I wrote a bunch of songs and there they are. So how did you write? Sarah Small sat down with the piano and wrote it. It was I was in living in an apartment street and uh I basically it was a postcard. I mean Sandy was there. I mean she was in the other room probably when

I wrote it. Well, were you writing it for a project or did you get an inspiration standing in the shower and go I gotta run with this? Oh? Well, I mean I totally inspirational. And then always songs are inspirational. It just happens to be within the project. But yes, I I was reading, I knew that I was writing for that album, and I said, okay, here's a song. I mean it was. It was total inspiration. And so let's assume you're writing for a project. You know, you

could sit in your studio and say it's from the guitar. Well, you could wait for a bull to lightning. What is that experience like? Or there's certain tricks you use try to be inspired, Well tricks, There are no tricks. I I just observe. I observed and opened my heart and and and that's how things happen. And that's as simple as that. It's it's it's it's not it's anti intellectual. Well two things. What happens if hey, what happens? If it's not coming, I walk away. I just move on.

I don't. I don't. I don't be laboring. Okay, do you ever say this isn't working, so let me go to a movie, let me go out for a drive, and maybe that'll loosen me up. Well, yeah, I don't even sit down with the idea that I'm going to do anything. I usually it's an inspiration and I walk over to the guitar, walk over to a keyboard, and and and make something happen. It isn't that I sit there and like a typewriter and say, okay, well this

is working, and this isn't working. It's it's working because I walk over to the keyboard now and one of these projects. Did you ever find that you weren't inspired enough before the recording date hit? No? No, I always I always rest to the occasion. Uh. The results aren't always what I was hoping for or whatever, but but I I rested the occasion. I always do. So how did you meet the Allen sisters? I met Sarah Allen

in Philadelphia? Uh, actually John introduced me to her. Johnny used to like to walk around and he still probably does that, and uh, you know, on the streets and just say a lot of people and uh, Sandy Allen, Sarah Allen, who was living around the corner. Not to my knowledge, she was just out of college. She was a charter she worked for Charter Airlines, and uh, she

was in and out of town, you know. And she came over to the house one day and I met her and I said, no, you know, and we eventually we did something clicked, and uh we wound up living together and uh we trying to remember we didn't live together Philadelphia. We that was right around the time when I was moving to New York and we we shared that apartment on eighty two Street, and her sister lived in Chicago. She was a la kid and uh I

met her around that time. Family stuff, and and we grew very close, all the three of us, and uh and and Joanna moved to uh the East Coast, and we were all sort of hanging out together and it was, uh, it was, it was. It was really quite nice. I mean, uh, like I said, John, I was just a kid, and uh but she was a very eager to learn kid. She was really a talented musician. I have to say, she was really talented. Okay, now you've been married, how did you decide to get married? Is your work? As

things are kind of bouncing off the walls before. So that was that was I look at that as kids stuff, you know, as you know the error I grew up in. You went study and you got married, you know, I mean, this girl, it was it was a school school stuff, and uh, we quickly learned that we weren't going to last you know it was we were just kids, and uh, it lasted like two and a half years or something

like that. How did it end imicably? It did just sort of who and in the fifty decade, five decades fifty years since then, have any contact or never seen her? I haven't seen her in decades. Okay, So how do you end up writing songs with the Allan system? Well it started on the silver album. I had this song you know, it doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter. And uh, I mean Sandy was around. You know when we say Sandy is Sarah? You know? And uh, uh she was

around just as we're there is her birthday? Sandy or Sarah? And how did one day come? The name is Sarah Allen and and she everybody calls her Sandy that knows her any reason, any reason? Why do we know she's been Sandy is says she was a kid. Okay, so you're sitting around continue there, So anyway, I'll use Sandy now because I know that everybody knows who Sarah is.

And uh, and she used to just sit around and well she'd be there, you know, in the house we were I've right in the living room, you know, and uh, she started contributing things, and she's in that song. You know, it doesn't matter anymore. She contributed to the song, and I went, oh, okay, well, she actually has something interesting to say here. And in those days she didn't. It was it was not anything official, and she didn't really

write with me very much in those days. I can't remember when she actually started really collaborating or co writing or throwing lyrics out. I can't remember which song would have been the first one other than that one. Uh. But in the in the late around and well, all those eighties songs is when it really came into fruition and she was really in the middle of all that and and really contributing a lot. Uh. And as far as Joanna goes, Janice the first, the first song I

ever wrote with Janna. She was that at that time, she was living where the parents had no no with the parents. She was living in l A. And Uh. She had the idea of a song called kiss on my list, and it was a first song I ever wrote with her. She's twenty and and I sat down whether to a world or her piano she had in her little living room, and I started playing those chords and and and she started. You know, we we literally

wrote the song together. And I wrote it because she says she wanted to be an artist, and I said, well, let's write a song for you. And I did that song, and I went back to New York and made it. I did a four track demo of it, and that's what you hear. That's the four track demo. Yeah, oh really kissing. Okay, let's go. Let's go back to the silver album. So Sarah Smile as a hit, and in the wake of that, She's Gone is released and as a hit too. What was your experience? Sarah Smile had

an amazing and and somehow appropriate beginning. We were we had released that was the third third single that that r c A released on on the Silver album, and we were in Germany. We were in Germany touring and somebody said, in Ohio on the on the black stations in Ohio, suddenly they're planning Sarah Smile. I think it was it started in Dayton or Acron or somewhere like that, I can't remember. And Uh, it suddenly started spreading all over into all the black stations, and we had it.

We had a hit on R and B radio. Uh and it was like, whoa, this is happening, and it really was word of mouth. It was one of those things that spread like wildfire. And then then uh, then pop radio what I call white radio star at that time, started playing it and it became this giant year. And but it all started in the black community. I mean, uh, Sarah Smile was was generated from that world, which again I find to be appropriate to the song and to

my career in life. So that's successful. She's gone as successful. How does that change your confidence and outlook? Well, I figured we had some figure, we had some ability to to stick around for a while. I mean, I didn't have any master plan, but I thought, okay, well it's working. Something's working. Now we can go out and tour. You know, now we can play we have songs to play for people that they want to hear. And it was, um, it was the beginning, you know, it was the beginning.

It validated what I was doing, and that's encouraging. Validation is really an important thing because it makes you more confident what you're doing. Okay, so that record, how does the bigger than both of the album come together? That was another Cris Bond record and we did it, and we decided, well, he was living in California and we decided to go out there and do it. Uh and it was uh yeah, that's what I'm That's all I

could say. It was a California record, and the musicians, the sidemen that we're on it were a lot of the l A players. Okay, so how did your right, rich girl? Okay, let's we'll backtrack a little bit and I'm back at street. UM in my apartment, same keyboard, I wrote Sarah smile on UM. Sandy had a old boyfriend came over from uh Ohio and uh he was

you know, this was a mid seventies, early seventies. Everybody was high as motherfucker, you know, and he was Let's see, I think it's I think his father had a fast food chain or something like that. I'm not even I'm a little vague on all that. But anyway, he in my in my perception, he was a rich He was a rich guy. You know, he came from a rich he came from a rich family. And uh so he he left and uh, he was acting kind of strange.

I mean, he was a good guy, but I it gave me, gave me the inspiration, and I sat down as he left. I went, he's a rich guy and he's gone too far because he knows it. Don't bad it anyway, And I wrote it about rich guy and then I U I said, no, that doesn't sound right. I can't write a song called rich Guy, So I changed the Rich Girl. Did you know as you were writing it how successful it would be? Uh? No, no, definitely not. So you cut it in l A. You got a finished version. You still have no idea how

successful would be. I think it's the rare person and in my entire career, and I've had a lot of sucking success, you know, commercially, I never was sure. Everything is a surprise. Everything is surprised. Sometimes songs that I thought we're gonna be hits were zero, and sometimes I thought songs okay, whatever, but became it. It's you never know, man, you can't tell. And a lot of that has to do with things that are out of my control, has to do with the fucking Paola and you know, record

business in a level ship, Okay. I vividly remember hearing Rich Girl the first time and having to go by the album, which was great. Needles to say that becomes an iconic hit. How does life change for you? Uh, it didn't really change. It was just more the same. Uh, you cant understand something. Two. Tommy Montola was a very controlling human being. I think anybody that knows anything about Tommy Montola's history, he liked to keep things under his control.

He didn't like things to get out of control. He didn't like things to get too high or too low. Uh. And you were sort of in a bubble, uh, asked Mariah Carey. Uh, you were in a bubble if you were controlled by Tommy Montola. And Uh, it wasn't conducive to highs and you know, major major highs or realizing where you were what you were doing. All I knew that I was a road musician. I was out playing on the road and then I was in the studio writing songs. At what point, if any, did you start

to see some money about five years ago? Really? What changed five years ago? Which what change was? I got it. I got the right manager for the first time in my life. And Jonathan Wilson, he was a PR guy and now he's your manager. How did that come together? Well? He was PR guy, and I realized that we had a rap war and and and an understanding of each other. And he had an instinct an instinct, and I ran with it and UH made it, made a major decision in my life and John's life, and uh and and

never looked back. And I've never been felt more justified in doing it. And what is John done differently from the people before? Let me let my instincts drive the bus. Okay, so you have this major success, Just one thing, one ly come there which always sticks out for me? Earth shoes Chicago Blues. Was that yours? Or was that John's? No, it's mine? So what I mean earth shoes for a big deal that. Remember, you know a lot of people

write songs. They don't like to put specific names. And you remember where that came from, if at all, it's a long time ago specific names to what you put earth shoes in the song? Oh earth shoes? Well, I couldn't think of I was thinking of all the different things, uh that that you could uh, all the opposites that you could think of it. It didn't matter, because you just have to follow your instincts. Do what you want, be what you are. You know, do you believe in

hot cars, leather bars? And movie stars. Do you believe in earth shoes? Chicago Blues? What do you know? It's it's yeah, like that. I wrote that song. By the way, John didn't read that song. Okay, if the credits are such that, I didn't want to make an assumption. Okay, you're incredibly hot, then you get cold. Do you feel that you're getting cold and nothing seems to be working? No, I don't. I felt that first of all, the late seventies were a bizarre time. They were a bizarre time

societally and a bizarre time musically. And I was caught in the crossfire. Uh I was. I look at that as as as as au opened up an opportunity to me, and uh I uh that's when I that's when I started working with Robert Fripp and uh and and did those albums that I did with with him, and and started being more involved with in that world. And uh that opened my whole, that whole that expanded my life to be quite a degree and allowed and allowed me

to get to the next stage. It was a transitional period. How did you meet Fripp and what you learned from Frip? I learned that you could have douce that my my sense of uh spontaneity and and and and and let anything's happen uh uh quickly and on the spot. And I that there are there were people that could roll with that and and and and and expand upon it, and you could have that kind of interaction creatively. Uh. Robert is like that. We we we created that ship

out of nowhere. I mean, I I just came up. He would just play a guitar riff, and I would start seeing whatever came into my mind. And uh and a lot of those songs are like that. I mean some songs are more structured than that, but a lot of it did come that way. And uh we my the Sacred Songs album happened. We made that album in about six weeks start to finish, and u uh and and the Exposure album, which I did the whole album when you know, saying all that wrote wrote us, saying

almost all the songs. Um that that didn't take much longer. I'm thinking about it. Um. But it's that sense of spontaneity that I and and and and freedom, freedom and joy and all those things. That's that's what I got from working with Robert. Okay, how did you end up working with David Foster was that your choice are foisted upon you. It was sort of foisted David that we were his second project. He was again, he was a kid.

He was twenty two. Uh, and he had I forget who he had done first, was an earth Wind of Fire. Maybe it was earth Word Fire, which is a hell of the beginning. Uh, or maybe it was the Sons of Champlain. I don't know whatever I'm battling. Um I I wouldn't call it foisted because he was suggested and uh, I thought that he was interesting and I met him and and and he had a very strong personality as you can imagine, and uh he was he had very strong opinions musically. But yeah, he was a kid, so

he was unformed. And uh we uh we. We went to California and we made a couple of records. Okay, as I say, these records are not really big successes, like bigger than both of us. And the next thing I know, you're playing clubs and you put out a live album. I certainly went to the rocks you to see you from the inside. There's no understanding that, wow, this is going in the wrong direction. We need a hit.

I don't know if it was that we ever said it's going in the wrong direction, But I think that the idea that we needed to hit, especially in the early eighties or ninety or whatever, was certainly on, you know, in our minds. Uh uh. If it wasn't my mind, it was, it was certainly in Matola's mind. Uh And uh, yeah, like that, I mean, but then I don't know. I wrote a bunch of songs, then they became his. Okay,

So how do you end up producing yourself? And whose idea is it to cover you've lost that love and feeling. I thought that the key, I thought that the key to some kind of success was for me to produce the well I go, I have to include John in this, for me and John to produce the album ourselves, because I just felt that nobody really understood what we were doing other than ourselves. And uh that came especially after

working with David, who is a very talented guy. We all knew that, and but he had his own opinions and and he didn't necessarily see music the same way as I did. Uh. So that was that was the important step, is producing ourselves. And uh uh And as far as who you also love feel we had we had done the whole album and we felt that we needed something else to a round out the album. And I happened to be in the Mud Club in New York.

That was one of those days when everybody went to mud club and uh and and they played in the room they were playing you lost that love of feeling, and I thought to myself, that's an interesting thing, you know what to duo. Maybe we should just like sing do a modern version of that song. Uh. And that's and we the next we were in the Electric Ladies studios and I think it was like the next day.

We went in there and we cut it. And we cut that song in about three hours and U there it is, so tell me the story if you make my dreams. Uh, well, there's not a whole lot of story other than I was sitting in my apartment in h in the village and uh and I I came up with that. I had a my working instrument of those days was a c a Yamaha CEP thirty and I mentioned that because of the distinct sound of it,

and it's that honky kind of strange, unique sound. And I just started playing that riff at where I didn't, you know, and uh, I started singing something over it, and uh uh there was you know, I and I you make my dreams. And I thought to myself that that's that's lame. You make my dreams come true. And and I realized that I tried to think around it and outthink myself, and I want to no that, let's just stick with the original thought. It's it's it's directed.

It is what it is. You make my dreams come true. And then I beside I was going to offset that with a slightly more flower flower um h verse lyric. And if you listen to those lyrics, there a lot more high blown than you make my dreams come true? Right, So, now you have unbelievable success with this album. You have three hits. That's gotta feel good. And what do you think about going into the next record. We were really in a whirlwind at that point. We were we were

on the road, we were experiencing immediate success. We were all over the world. Uh we were. If we weren't all over the world, we were in the studio making the next record. It was a very active time and with not a whole lot of time to reflect or understand what was going on around us? Uh? The old, the old cliche I of the hurricane. Uh was pretty much the way to describe. Okay, I can't go for that,

Oh can do. What's the story there? I we were doing the privatized album right yeah, and and uh I was. It was sort of after hours and I I had this cord crappy little organ and uh and I started I turned on and I had and I had a thing called the rolling COMPUVERYTHM, which is the most rudimentary

drum machine that ever was built. And uh, I pressed rock and roll one boom Dick Dick boom, you know that beat, and I started playing boom but at on on the organ and uh and then I started playing in the right hand in it, and uh, I said, wait a minute, I think I have something here, and uh I I I John was packing. He was He was still there and he was packing his guitar. I said, you know, John, come in plug it, just play play exactly what I say to you. Play bump bump up

bump bomb right here. He was right there, Okay, bompopo bomb and he played exactly what I dictated to him. And I had a track that was it. That was the track. And then I went in the in the room, in the vote, in the in the control room, and said give me a microphone and I started saying, Hey, that right, and I started doing that and that was That is literally how the song was created. And then

how did the ultimate lyrics come together through my frustration? Okay, so in the midst of all this, MTV launches and you make videos. This is in the rudimentary era of videos at first private eyes, etcetera. But also suddenly which we learn, MTV makes people bigger than ever. So what was your experience with m DV like it not like and then you end up having a long career there. Well,

I had a love hate relationship with it. I I was there, as you said, I was there from the the beginning, like the first bloody day, and uh, nobody really knew what they had and they didn't really know what they were doing that they didn't have they had no scripting, the VJs. Uh, they would just give Marth Quinn or you know who, you know, you name it

two hours, just go here's here's play this. When that's a bat Pat Benatar, play this would played that you know and you and just talk, and I have to hand it to these well, they were like radio DJs. They would just talk and uh, very early on they asked me to do it, and both both on my own and with John uh to to be VJs and we would just do anything just to pass the time. I mean, I remember one time I had t bone on their cooking cooking eggs or something in between songs.

I mean, it was it was all kinds of It was anything goes. It really was anything goes, and that was great. It was like the early days of television when you hear about Sid Caesar and you know, and uh, you know those days. It reminds me a lot of that. It was nobody really had any rules. So they didn't because it was a brand new thing. So uh, it was a really heady time, really a really fun time.

But then you had to deal with the videos and the videos where you know, these extravaganza is generally done by cokeheads that did commercials, you know, uh, and and they were all always overblown and they were always ridiculous and they always had nothing to do with the song. And that was the part it didn't like. So there it is okay, but now everybody over the all over the world. Not only knows your songs, they know what you look like. And you could you feel that change

anywhere you when people knew who you were? And was that, you know, inhibiting or it was it wasn't was it inhibiting? You know? I mean I had already experienced that to some degree, but it actually my my big commercial success came simultaneously with that. So I can't differentiate. I don't know. All I know is that I was you know, yeah, it was Darryl Romania. I mean people, which you know I was. I couldn't go to Christmas shopping or do anything.

I mean I I was chased down the streets and you know it was like the Beatles, you know that that's bullshit, you know it was. It was that that kind of stuff, screaming girls and uh uh it was. It was weird. I got to say it was weird. So you have a long run of success album after album with hits. Did you just feel you would come up with hits or do you go into the studio and you say you start your project, Man, I gotta I gotta equal I gotta have something like that on

the album. No, I have never in my I thought that way, because that is the death of anything, death of creativity. I at the back of my mind, I always tried to do my best, and I realized what what I what I was doing. But I wasn't writing songs with the idea they were gonna be hints. I write the best song I can think of to express the emotion that's going on in my head in my heart. Uh. And that's that's that doesn't get any farther than that, really,

I mean, that's that's how the songs get written. So at the peak of your success you end up going to air a staff. How does that come together? Oh? Again, that was the machinations of Tommy. Uh I I didn't care where I was one of the truth and and you know again more than I have to say, and being insulated and isolated. Uh h and uh, I guess I don't know. Clide Clide, Jesus Clive not client. Uh. Clive Davids said he wanted us badly. I don't know, you know he and and he he basically gave us

a pitch to go there. And I guess it worked. Worked for Alan Grubbin and Tommy Mattola and nothing to do with me. Clive has a great, great, a big reputation for meddling with the music. Did he meddle with your music? Yes? He tried it? Did it didn't? My My experience with with Clive didn't really turn out very well. Uh, because I I don't like being told what to do by anybody. And I mean, I don't want to put Clive down, you know, but yes, he was a middler,

and he and just what he thinks. His instincts are not necessarily what's best for the artist. And uh, you know I had I had one memorable meeting where I walked out of the basically walked out of the meeting when he tried to get me to sing a song called I've Got a New Blue Suit. So you know, it's a bad experience all around. Clive is middling and you have no hits. What's going through your brain? What's next? I don't know. Uh, I can't even remember what was

going on. Then, you know what I I don't know. I was I was starting to think about making some solo records, and uh and and and moving into that direction for a while. And uh, I've always spent a lot of time in England, especially in London, and I decided I had a house at that time. I well, I had boadhouse, and I decided to move to England. So I moved to England and made a couple of records basically out of there. And uh, I'm very proud

of it. That's what I'm promoting right now. That's I'm I'm promoting the uh excerpts from the from those albums. And uh, I looked at that as it was. That was that was a lot of fun. The early nineties were great. Okay, so things keep moving on MTV changes, it becomes hip hop, you know, grunge, etcetera. Very slick videos. You make those albums when you come up for air.

What does the world look like to you? Uh? It was it when I came up for air out of my good time in London, it started going like, Okay, now I gotta figure out what I'm really gonna do. And uh, I I will say that the second half of the nineties, I was I was looking for direction, I was looking for something. I was looking for whatever U Matola had left. I mean that was that. We go back to that in that nine is when we parted company, just to be very specific. He ended up

going from the management side to the label. Is that what rupture the relationship ors is something totally separate. It was a little a combination of both. He he he left me for Mariah and uh and I say it that way because that's what it was like. And uh and uh and then at the same time he managed to Uh, well, there's book has been written about it that he got into managed to get into the position of the head of it, of the sony and uh. Uh so we didn't really have That's when our relationship

changed completely. And uh uh uh and I moved on and I and I went up with with somebody who used to work in the mental organization, and and and he was also my tour manager and he started managing me for quite a while until until Jonathan came on the scene. Okay, so prior to Mariah coming on the scene, and based on what you just said, can we say that you were number one in Tommy's book, that you

trumped everything and he was thinking about you, etcetera. Oh, without a doubt, without even in shadow of a doubt. I mean he had other artists, uh, and I feel bad for those other artists. If you want the truth. I mean one of my somebody who I think is one of the great overlooked artists as August Arnell with Kid Creole in the Coconuts. He was he was managing August, but he christ he you know, he had had a

clue what to do. It lost. Yeah, And and even though Aggy had great success in Europe outside the United States, Tommy didn't know what to do with him. He was busy, busy with me basically, and you part ways. Is that the end of the relationship or do you have any contact with him thereafter? Through today? Not through today so much? Uh? We we we were in contact for many many years after all that. Uh now nowadays we're not really so much in contact. So you come back to the States,

it's the nineties, you're looking for direction. Pick up from there. I'm thinking I did. I did my solo albums, two solo albums. I did an album called Marigold Sky with John. Decided to try a record with John, and then uh then I'm did oh I did to do It for Love album which with with John that was in England. Uh and uh then we did other things. We we did We did a Christmas album and I mean, you know, this all kind of runs together. Uh, it was just

kind of random. I don't know. We we we didn't really have a focus direction either as Hall and Oates or as solo artists. It was sort of in between. It was the beginning of that is the beginning of of us going in two different directions and uh uh, but but still doing the occasional project and doing and and uh and playing live. That was when we sort of became a live band for real and started playing everywhere. And was that driven by a need to be on

stage or a need for money? Both? You gotta make money. You gotta you have to support a band, and you have to support yourself. Uh. You know, I'm like anybody you have a job, and uh uh as far as need to do, I do. I need it. I I've been doing in my whole life. So I don't know if you call that a need or not. But I do live to perform. I love to perform. I'm I'm a performing animal. Okay. At what point in this story do you get into construction projects? Ah, that's that's a

parallel story. I've been doing that forever. I grew up in a in a in a strange family of there were either musicians and or people who worked in Like my grandfather was a stonemason and brick layer. When I say brick layer, he wasn't. He built houses, He built chimneys. He was, he was. He was a specialist. And uh, I used to live on construction sites. My father built the house that I grew up in. Um. I I've always been around people who work with their hands, and

carpenters and and and and and and specialists. And I grew up in Chester County, which is uh, you know, and in the midst of the eighteenth century basically, uh, that's you know. My family houses are those kind of houses, you know, antique structures, and uh, I've always had a love of history. And let me thank the first. The first house I renovated was that one I told you about that I would pay eighty five dollars a month for it was a late eighteenth century house row house

in Philadelphia that was completely destroyed. And I went in there and started renovating and painting and doing everything and fix that house up to live in. And then the second one. I've done so many houses, it's just over the years, uh uh I've done many many historic houses, and I really like doing it. I know how to organize it, I know how to I understand the history of it. I understand how things, how things work. I understand construction. I understand all those things, and I really

enjoy it. It's sort of an avocation. The house that I'm doing this in right now is the house that I completely renovated from scratch, Hies House. Okay, so they're always existing houses. You never want to build from scratch. Oh No. The house that I did the Life of Darrell's House show, and I did, I took two houses down in in uh in uh, near Hartford, Connecticut, and moved them to Dutchess County, New York, uh from the and and then and built them from below the foundation up.

So I reconstructed those houses out of uh, you know, out of the original materials. Okay, it's let's just say, this is what you like to do. Are you always looking for a project? How do you find the house? Well? I'm always sort of in a projects. I don't think there's been much time that I haven't been under construction or in a situation where this construction going on under my under my direction. But as I say, what do

you decide? How do you find the projects to work on? Well, a lot of in in well just about all the cases I was there were houses that I want up living in for at least a while. Okay, so you say you really know how to do it. Let's say we find a classic house seventeen hundreds eighteen hundreds in need to repair. Walk me through the steps of bringing it up to your standards. Well, it depends what it needs. I mean, let's let's talk about the worst case scenario.

What what might that be? That might be something that needs foundational work, needs detail work. Uh need you know to what degree can you do with your friends? To what degree you need to outside contract stuff like? Okay? Sure? Uh, well, I mean you need specialists because that's the whole thing. That's one of the things I like about it is that that all these people are artisans and they do things. I like to do things in a in a way

that we're done originally. I don't like to bring things in unless I have to, uh that are that are that are modern additions to it? For example, this house and I'm in I had foundational issues the wall over by the not this room, and then the other side of the house was starting to cave in around where the chimney stack is and I had to shore that up. I had to use I beams and I had uh re restructure the wall to uh to shore up the foundation. Uh some I had had columns. I had to uh

you know that weren't there before. Um, Well, there you go. That's that's how you fix it. You're need to say, you're a working musician. To what degree are you supervising all this? Well, it depends on the project. I was very much supervising the Flinthill project because it was I was there as to do with proximity this house. It's

been taken me forever to do. It started when I had the TV show and I was that's when this this house that I'm sitting and started that project and I'm now just finishing it because I've been working so much that I couldn't be around physically, and so it's taken years to uh uh to to bring to completion. Um. But I find that you have to use good g C. You have to have a sympathetic GC, somebody who really

understands antique architecture. And I have an architect who is my friend as well as uh she's an amazing uh uh. She has an amazing ability to work with an antique projects and uh and I trust her. I trust her. She doesn't she does the heavy lifting literally uh and uh you know does does the drawings and all that. But but you know, it's it's all about my decision making. Anybody's involved with construction know that it's done by individuals

and it's never perfect. To what degree have this Has this been your experience and to what degree do you let things go? To what degree do you make them do it over? Now? Well, towards the end of one era of this project that I'm in, uh, I had a GC walk off the job. He was a jerk. He basically I I turned him onto some people and instead of any any any left me for those people. And you know, that's one of those kind of and

so I was stuck. I was stuck without a g C. I was stuck with that and uh uh and I was in the middle of it was a very difficult at the time. I was not getting along with my with my wife and and uh, I don't want to get into that, but uh, I had to hire an architect and I hired a g C from the area that I really wasn't that familiar with, and uh and in a construction company to to sort of keep the

project going. And they acted like they knew what they were doing, but they didn't know what they were doing. And then I wound up having to go on the road to pay for all this and uh uh. Anyway, long story short, that's when they started doing funked up things and I came back and said, what is this? And I did make them rip things out. I'm still in the process of some of the things of undoing some of them at work. So that happens, so you enjoy it. But when the process is done and you

sell it, are you in the black or the red? Uh? Depends depends on the time. Uh depends on the real estate time. Right now, I would be in the right now, I would be in the in the black because it's a good time for real estate. But if I like the Flynn Hill project, it was sort of a financial disaster because I was doing it all. It was my my major one, my my big work, right and uh, magnus opus and and and uh and I completed it. When right when the real estate when when everything fell

to pieces when when nothing was worth anything. So that wasn't such a great result, but but the project itself was was amazing. So how many houses you own right now? Oh? Well, I this one that I didn't. I have a studio house that's about a couple of miles away, and I have a family house in London. Okay, So tell me about the genesis of life from Darrell's house. I just had And it was an idea, a simple, simple idea that I could bring the world into my into me

as opposed to me going to the world. And at the time, the Internet wasn't being used for entertainment in any way. It was being used for communication and information, uh and things like that and commercialization. But nobody even really had anything that resembled an entertainment show, at least nothing important, especially not a music show. So I decided I was going to do a music show, and I got somebody to fund it, which is super important changed my life, and uh, we started doing it. We just

did it. It was it was all very real, and uh, I said, you know, no audience, Let's just get it in a room and with people and show show the world what it's like to be in the inter sanctum of of you know, musical creativity and interaction and uh.

And one of my first guests with Smokey Robinson, I called in my cards, you know, I called in my I was just on the phone with people, and Smokey unbelievably came up to Duchess County, you know, which is not that closed anywhere, and U he came up and it was amazing, and uh, that was one of the first shows. But and it just went from there and people really responded to it, and I'm so happy. It made me so happy. It's it's the happiest I've ever been is doing is doing these these shows and that

in that series. It fulfilled me. It defined me really, It's it shows people what I do, what I'm like, what I'm like as a person, what I and what I do in life, what I'm good at. And uh, yeah, so I got some new shows coming. Okay, that's giving my next question. So you know you put them out of the web series. As you say, the buzz was unbelievable and you were way ahead of everybody else. Then ultimately you've gotta deal for television. So what's the status

of it now? Well, you know, everything changes now I don't. I have I have regained the funding, and so that's an important part. This is not an easy show to do financially. And uh uh. But having said that, how to put it out I'm not sure because everything changes, I mean, how do I want to put it out now? I mean I've been toying with the idea of of just going on YouTube and putting it out that way, you know, because YouTube is now a channel, a channel

into itself. Uh, maybe do a combination of I don't know. I haven't found I don't know where it's spot is going to be, but it's going to be somewhere obviously. But but the thing is that it is international show and whatever I do will be I want to do something that makes it easier for everybody around the world to watch it. So I may use regular terrestrial television, I might use some streaming service. I might use YouTube I don't. I don't know yet, or a combination thereof.

So how many shows you plan to do? But to start with six? Next one season and then um, let's see, now, how expensive is it to do a show? Well, it costs money, but it's not the production. The production is relatively well, you know, it's a little bit of money, but it's the clearances and all that stuff. You know,

there's a lot of money. You have to pay a lot of people, you know, you know, artists and publishers, and you know, there's a lot a lot involved in it, a lot of legal things and a lot of machinations. And it was hard to get going in the beginning because there was a lot of people who didn't understand what I was doing, and they thought that I was trying you know, they were some people thought that I was like Napster Jr. You know, back in those days, that I was trying to steal from the artist, not

enhance the artists career. So I had a lot of of of resistance to getting this stuff started. But I will say that my manager and me figuring it out how to do it and at this late day, because you've done so many At first you call in your cards, how do you select guests? Now? Well, I still call in cards. Um. I have some feelers out right now that that are interesting ones. Um. But a lot of

it comes down to scheduling. Most artists have lives and they work and then they're on the road and they're not in this necessarily in anywhere near upstate New York, you know. So there's a lot of that that that that that's actually one of the biggest factors in trying to get people to figure out how they're going to actually be able to do the show. Most people say, yes, that's the funny thing, not funny and it's the happy thing. Uh. People say yes, you man, I love that show. I

watch it all the time. And I said, Okay, when can you do it? Well, you know, I'm doing a tour that maybe next year, you know that kind of thing. So will it be done in the same space, with same format, with cooking, etcetera. I think, so, I'm going to incorporate this house, which is different than the old house, and I do it in my club, So I think I'm probably going to do the music in the club and the food and conversation and dinner here in this house,

which is only a couple of miles away. Now, people always talk about owning a club and owning a bar, but it is a business and it's an incredible headache. So how did you decide to own the club and how much of your in putting hands on attention, does it need? Well, Luckily I have a partner and he

has another club. He has a club in the West Coast, and uh so he's and his his his club is a version of the kind of club that I have, and so he understands that it started with a lot of his bringing his his cook in and things like that. So I had a lot of help in getting it going. I make the creative decisions. I have a lot to do with the food. Uh I. Uh, you know, we figured out as far as the booking goes and things

like that. Um, and I leave the actual nuts and bolts financing and and those those that area to my partner, who uh, like I said, has plenty of experience in this. Uh. I will say that we managed to somehow survive the pandemic, which was really not easy. So prior to the pandemic, is this just a labor of love or can you

make any money? Well, it's it's it's sort of a it's a generator, you know, it's it's it's it's I have people from all of the world come and play there, and people from all the world actually come there, So it's become a it's become a physical shrine to whatever is the Darrel's House kind of thing and uh uh and it's it is a labor of love. I love clubs. I love the idea of clubs. Clubs are where all the good stuff happens, uh, the best music and U I uh. And it's also the place that that I

do my show out of. You know, it's it's it's it's a home for me. It's the home home of the show. Uh. So it's uh, you know, it provides a lot of it. There's a lot of the generates out of it. Okay, just to be clear, where the original episodes were shot from live from Darrel's House. That

is not the club. That's the house you used to own, right, Yeah, that's the that's the Flint Hill house that I created from scratch and you ultimately sold that when in in in about twenty you know, I don't know, I'll say something. We're in that area, maybe I don't know. Okay, needless to say, we're all getting older by the minute, and no one gets out of here alive. You know, do you feel that at all that you know there's a limited time left and you want to accomplish or you

just want to ride. What what's your perspective on aging and you know the grim Reaper. Well, my perspective is that at this time of life, it is time to not pull punches. Do whatever it is that makes that fulfills for me. I'll say me do whatever it takes to fulfill myself. What I do it, now, do it, don't funk around. You want to do something, go do it if you can do it, uh because right that much of a future come on, you know. I mean,

I'm gonna do it until I can't do it. And uh, I have a I'm very lucky that I have a pretty good jeans. My mother's ninety eight and my father was ninety six when he died, and that wasn't his fault. Uh So, Um, I think I have some time left, you know, and and but I'm gonna do my best to take advantage of that time. That's what else gotta say. Needless to say, you started a long time ago when music really drove the culture. He had a hit, everybody

in the world knew it. Today, we live in a very broad culture where a number one hit reaches fewer people than ever before. In addition, there scenes that don't seem to stream that well, but do incredible live business. Do you keep up on hit music or you just say I'm doing what I'm doing. That's just something different. Um, I don't keep up with anything. I don't try to. I use I I listen to music randomly. I'm not a great audience, although I'm a very heartfelt audience. What

I like something. I'm really a lucky person because that what you talked about, I experienced. I had a hit. The whole world knew about it. It was that I I benefited from that. I I made my bones on that and and I used that for what I do now, which is very tribal. And I I can relate to tribalism very well. I mean, I like having my people and and playing to the people that give a shit about me. And uh that's yeah, I mean it. It's worked out very well in my favor. I think, I

feel okay. We both came of age in the sixties. Fifties were sort of somnambulance. Sixties come along, you know, the boomers take over. There's a war of the generations, the Vietnam War. Needless say, it's radically different. What do you think about today's environment? Well, we live in a dysfunctional, crashing and burning world. It's that's a whole other podcast if you want the truth. I mean, I don't even

know what to say. I'm I'm I'm a I see this horrible, horrible disparity between mindsets and uh, that's that's uncrossable. And I don't see things getting better. I'm a historian, maybe an amateurist story, but I'm an a storian. And uh and and I we were I see parallels. Man, We're headed to the dark ages. Good luck. Well, we've believed in the sixties that use could save the world. Does music have a role or have times changed or it never had that power? I think that there was.

There was a time where music actually did have a lot of power. It really did. Uh, Beatles come to mind, you know, I mean you know, I mean it was it was changing things. It was, it was, it was, it was. It drove a social movement, I think in in in the late sixties. Uh. Now, does music have any thing, any power? No, but it can't because of what you said before, Because you can't have a hit and everybody in the world hears it. So you have

your tribe and that's it. You know, it's it's it's never going to have that kind of ability to move people. It can't possibly. And what about legacy? Do you care if you're remembered? You care if your songs last? Uh? Well, I'll take the John Lennon thing and says who gives a ship after him dead? You know, I mean, do I care? No? I caring is a funny word. Uh. I mean, I'm proud of what I've done, and uh

that's that's all I can say about it. You know, I mean people could once it leaves me, it belongs to the world. I think that's a perfect note to end on. Darryl. I want to thank you for taking the times, very insightful, great to learn things I didn't know. Thanks again, sure man, we could do it until next time. This is Bob left Sex