Chris Kimsey

I've been religiously following you. UM. I never chirp up much, I never step in. I think I've only said one or two things ever, But I really I really respect your love of the music business and your care with the music business as well installing in a lot of people things that they don't know and should know. Thank you, good night, don't brother. Okay, what was the first record

you ever worked on? The first record I ever worked on, UM would have been as an assistant engineer, a tea boy, or as an engineer where how far do you want to go back? All the way to the beginning, all the way to the beginning, right The first record I would have worked on, UM was It would have been a jingle for UM Martini Try a Taste of Martini any time anywhere, that one, which you might not get

in the States. I don't know, but it was. It was for UK TV adverts and at Olympic we did a lot of those sessions from seven am until ten in the morning, the jingle sessions, and that would have been the first session UM I would have worked on. UM. Actually no, I tell a lie. The first session I ever worked on was the day that I arrived at Olympic to start work. I just remembered, so UM I was. I arrived at the studio my first day and the job, and I was told to go up to Studio one,

introduced myself to the engineer, sit down and observe. So I walked into Studio one, introduced myself to the engineer who's still a very good friend of mine. Alan O'Duffy and Anna looked at me, startled, and he said, do you work here? I said yes. He said can you take over? Because the engineer at the assistant engineer that was working with me, he's suddenly turned really sick and he's disappeared, so can you take over? So I didn't tell him that, you know, I just walked in the building.

So I sat down. And because I was familiar with tape machines, my mother and father bought me a tape machine when I was about ten years old, so I knew how to press record, stop, start, rewind, those simple things. And I looked at the tape box and could see what the log was, what people were writing in for the log. And the special only lasted like thirty minutes. Again, it was another jingle session. And at the end of the session and and said thank you very much, Chris.

He said, They said, I haven't seen you before. How long have you worked here? I said, well about forty five minutes now, So that was off to a good start and A has been a dear friend every since. Actually, let's start from the beginning. Where were you? Where did you grow up? M I grew up in Battersea in southwest London, um um and in my school from the age of like eleven through fourteen. My school not said that.

I was really interested in the school plays and theatrical stuff, so having a tape recorder was really handy because I was asked to do the sound for the school plays. Um. Anything to get off doing the actual lessons, but I loved English lit. I loved doing in the sound effects of the plays. And that took me to a really interesting place because the school were they they suggested that I go to a recording studio in in the middle of London, near Tottenham Court Road, which was in a school,

a tiny little studio. It was a four channelvill Texian mixer and a stereo phareograph machine. UM. It was mainly for dialogue, mainly for drama. And I was sent there every second Saturday in the month. And I'm like twelve years old, thirteen years old getting on the tube going up to London. UM. And I met another young student in there who also became a very very dear friend, a gentleman called Ray Staff. And Ray was one of

the best mastering engineers. He just retired about a year ago, but he's his last residence was air mastering, but he was at Columbia Sony in London Whitfield Street, tried and I think he started at Trident actually, and he was one of the best mastering engineers in the UK for sure. UM. And occasionally I have the nerve to the cheek to pull him out of retirements. Sometimes and say, you've got to master this one for me. So it's quite a strange that he and I were because he's from East London,

so it was a very different part of London. So it was quite of wonderful that we met there and then we met in a later life as well when our careers that you know, kind of the following the roads and paths that we did. Okay, were you surprised when you saw the Battersea Power Station on the cover of the Pink Floyd album. Um? Yes, I was surprised by that, but I mean it's such an iconic building. Um it was, you know, it was fantastic to see.

I just want to go to the the thing with Ray because there's another little wonderful at addendum to that story. So the teacher, the music teacher in that school who donated his saturdays to teaching young students, um, the two of us. Um. He was also a musician and he loved his jazz. So one afternoon he said to me, he said, Chris, would you mind staying behind? He said,

I've got a little trio like to record. And we only had like three or four microphones, well four microphones because we had four knobs on the bull text in so so I stayed behind and recalled the Teacher's Little Jazz Ensemble. Well, many many years later I saw his face pop up because, um, his name is Ray Cooper, and I think you know Ray Cooper for the percussionist. Yeah. So, Um, there was a wonderful moment a long time ago where, um, we hadn't seen each other since I was fourteen years old,

and I saw him. There was an event for um, what was the Elton and Bernie album, The Two Rooms? Was it? Yeah, there was a big Yeah, there was a big event for that. U and I attended that event and we kind of, you know, I just kind of looked. We saw each other from a distance and we both started to cry as we walked towards each other. It was unbelievable. Um, And what a wonderful man he was and still is terrific gentleman. Okay, what did your parents do for a living and why did they buy

that tape recorder for you? Well, I'm not sure they bought it, Bob. I think it might have fallen off the back of a lorry, as we say in London. That begs the question of what your parents were doing every day. Well, my my my mother worked as UMM. She was what you would call hr now. She was working in a bank UM and she was part of

the accounts team. And then my father, my father was an under taker French polisher and carpenter, and he had a job at a big department store here called the co op Um repairing stuff that had come in broken or had to be repaired, furniture. But that's where the back of the lorry, you know, gifts would sometimes arrive. Okay, so you grow up exactly the right time the Beatles hit, etcetera. You talked about your theatrical interests as a result of schooling.

To what degree were you interested in the popular music scene. I wasn't that interested in popular music, in fact, where even when I started working at the Olympicum, the kind of band scene didn't interest me at all. I mean I just missed Jimmy Hendrix by about a year. At Olympic. I think Jimmy was there when it first opened with Eddie Eddie Kramer, and I never met Jimmy. I never met Eddie, actually I missed him. Um. And my whole love of music was really it was film scores. It

was musical films. Um and the only two tapes I had for my tape machine were Fates and Artra Songs for Swinging Lovers and Nat King Cole with George Shearing. Um and they were really my two introductions to the sonics of music, of recording. Um and they've stuck with me ever since. I mean, two of my favorite recordings ever. Um So in starting at Olympic um No, let's go back a little bit before. Yeah, so, how does your schooling end? How do you get the job? Little? Okay,

the schooling ends? Um. I left school when I was sixteen and a half. I didn't go on to further education. I didn't go to college. And um I because of my love of recording. In a way, I missed quite a lot of lessons because of that, which I enjoyed missing because I got more involved in recording the music. So in leaving school, I didn't have any path or direction um and, apart from my love of of of music, and so I had odd jobs of like I had

a job driving for Ferrari, not the race. There was your job driving with Ferrari, not not not the racing team. I was picking up spare parts for Ferrari because I passed my license as soon as I could. I passed my driver's license, so I was driving that Tina when I was like seventeen sixty and a half years old. So um um, and I had another job picking up spare parts for another factory. UM. So I was always traveling and then um um. I had two girlfriends at

the time. One girlfriend lived in Barns around the corner for malmn Pick and the other girlfriend lived across the street. And whilst going to Barnes every week to see your girlfriend, I would I would just go into Olympic, into the office. I didn't know what was in there. I had no idea what do we called. Your studio was really m apart from they recorded something and I would go in and just say if you've got your jobs and they said no, no. I go back the next week and

same thing. Well after the third week, they sort of got fed up with me said okay, what's your name, what's your phone number? So I gave him that information um and then took up another driving job. And then I suddenly got a call for an interview with Keith Grant and went to the studio met Keith, who built Olympic studios who designed it and one of the best

recording engineers ever. And Keith showed me around and I was in total or I mean it was it was four track, just moving into eight track and to see that equipment and the console, the Olympic console, and he took me to see the studios terrific and he said, well, I've got some technical questions for you. So I thought, I was ship, here we go. I'm gonna this is not going to happen. And he said, how do you wire a thirteen and plug? You know the words? How

do you you know wire a main sac? Well I knew that that was simple and actually built my own little radio at home as well. So um, and that was it. That was the end of the test. So I thought, okay, well, wonderful to meet you. And they just said, well, well, you know, we've got a lot of other people were talking to and went home a week pass nothing, and then after that I thought, well I better look around for another job. So a girlfriend across the street, her brother had a company that were

supermarket fitting. So you traveled around the UK fitting out supermarkets and the the overtime was really good. It was it was driving, which I like it's again. So I was about to start that on a Monday morning, but fortunately Olympic called on the Friday before that Monday and said, hey, Chris, can you come in Monday morning and start for eleven pounds a week? Um, and that was it. Okay, how long did you work, Jingles? How did you go from

t boy to assist hto engineer? What was going on there? Um? Pretty quickly? Um, from te boy to tape operator because I had all the skills and knowledge really. Um. The great thing about Keith Grant was that he could see he was a people person, and I think in meeting with me, he knew there was someone there that would really um, would really lock in with other musicians and other engineers. There was a spirit that he, you know, knew was inside me and the love of music as well.

So UM. I was an assistant engineer for maybe three three years, which at the time seemed like an eternity because another engineer, another assistant engineer, was doing sessions UM and Keith said, he said, the longer you can stick it, you know, being a taper on different types of sessions, you'll learned so much UM. And that became so true because um so I spent maybe a year and a half, maybe two years assisting Keith on a lot of the film music UM, the Thomas Crown Affair, the original one

with Windbles of My Mind, michel Le gram Um. I was assistant on that UM, the Italian Job by Quincy Jones, the assistant on that UM, a lot of Jesus Christ Superstar, assisted on some of that UM, a lot of really good large session UM orchestral sessions UM. And as an assistant you had to set the whole room up UM. You know, if it if it was a fifty or sixty piece orchestra, you would have someone else to help you.

But generally it was the assistant engineer's job to set up the whole room so that when the producer or the engineer walked in at like ten am, they could almost just sit down and push the faders up in

press record um. UM. That taught me a great lesson actually, which I know still reflect upon today, is that I'm always prepared for anything on the session UM, and to the point where I'll prepare before the artist, before the band, before anyone arrives, because I like to kind of like to take the studio out of the recording process so that the musicians are there to create UM and you enjoy themselves really to you know, to give a great performance. UM.

And I'll never forget that from Keith. So after about a year and a half, two years of working on those sessions, I was then asked if i'd like to work the evening sessions, which was the you know, the and the rock and roll music UM. And they said, well, we're gonna put you on a Glenn John's session. Now I've never met Glenn's. I didn't know who he was. And the other assistants had worked with Glenn, and they said, you better be really careful. Was Glenn suffer snow falls? Um?

And um just beyond your guard. So I studied what he wanted, what he needed and the first session he walked in seven pm. Everything was ready to go and he loved it. And then he asked me to be on future sessions. Well, future sessions were things like the Eagles, Steve Miller band, Um Delaney and Bonnie Joe Cocker, UM, Joan Arber Trading UM, look kind of the Eric Clapton, the Kreme de La Krem of that time and period. UM. And then the first time I met the Stones was

with Glynn. Okay, wait wait before you go, before you go back that you're working with Glenn, what did what did you learn from him? Specifically? Um? I learned UM I learned are the professionalism in terms of how to inspire and get musicians to deliver U without without them really knowing that they were being kind of you know that was happening to them. U. Encouragement um uh. You know, encouragement come come in different forms. It can um. It can also come in the form of like someone say,

well that's a part of crap. You know you can do better, um, which you know it's true. UM. So people take that on boarding and then they lift up their games. So UM. And Glenn just had a great finesse UM and style about his approach to being an engineer producer because he was one of the first freelance engineers term producer UM. And the reason he worked at Olympic a lot was because well, not only did it sound amazing there, but abbey Road wouldn't not let engineers

in from outside. If you were an abbey Road engineer, you couldn't work there. And Glenn had grown up working in IBC Studios, which I think it might have still been going, but you know, his career had moved on and he found this wonderful temple of sound that he loves. So. Um, So I learned a lot from Glenn and we're still really very good friends today. Um. I mean, you know, Glenn's a no bullshit guy, um and doesn't suffer any fools. Um. I'm not sure I'm quite as hard nosed as that,

but um, I've got my ways. So um, it was. It was a wonderful education between So. Then you say you were talking about how your metap Stones. Yeah, that, though, was was an interesting session. The first session so it was brown Sugar, the early days of Brown Sugar. Wait wait, wait, wait, before we get to brown Sugar, you were involved and you were involved and leeds up when three correct? Yes, I was the assistant on that. Yeah. Yeah, I did a lot of sessions with Andy Johns as well. I

was flip flopping between the two brothers. So um, two very different styles of producing and recording. Um, both you know, getting incredible results. Um. So Andy I worked with ten years after who I later worked with myself. Um um oh gosh, um more of the heavy m West Bruce and Lang Um Spooky Tooth, Humble Pie, um who else with Andy? I can't remember much else with Andy actually, but quite a lot. You know, people are very interested and leads up in three because of course it was

a left turn concerning what came. It had come before any stories, any inside because people you know, whover that stuff up. Yeah. Well I knew the first album obviously because that was recorded Olympic. I wasn't there at the time, but I was in the building, so I knew of the album. And and also that's the album that Glim made with Jimmy so um um led Zeppelin to um Classic and then let's have been three there was. I mean it was a little bit of a missmash in

terms of it. Eddie Kramer doing some engineering, Andy John's doing some engineering um um. So but for me that experience have been with them, I've never been impressed by rock and roll stars. I mean the only person that I've ever been kind of not impressed. That's like not the right word. I've um. I'm very easy going in meeting musicians, um. But the only person I've ever been nervous of meeting with Sean Connery. UM. So UM. In working with Zeppelin, it was it was another band, UM,

and you know, fantastic to work with. UM. I actually heard the squeak on the bass drum, and since I've been loving you, there's a squeaky bass drum which never got old, and I cherished the thought that it's still there. UM. UM. Working with Jimmy, actually I could you know, I could see Um a genius. But they were all so in tune with each other. And the fact that Jimmy's background, Jimmy's background, you know, came from session in a session musician. UM.

Same with John Paul Jones. So, UM, that was an exciting thing to happen that you've got basically the session musicians who get together from you know, one of the biggest bands in rock and roll. So let's go back to Brown Sugar. Okay, So the session for Round Sugar seven PM. I've got the whole room set up. I've never worked with the Stones before. Glynn gave me the line up, set it all up. UM. Stew had arrived to you know, put the amps up and set them

up in Stuart. UM. I didn't realize that Stew was in the band at that time, I thought he was there, you know, the roadie UM UM and seven o'clock, no one arrived. Seven thirty eight o'clock, no and arrived. So I just sat there waiting and about quarter past eight, UM two people walked into the recording area. Now the control room is quite away from the entry to the recording area, so I see these two characters come in. I did not think they were to do with the band.

I thought, then they look a bit shifty. I'm not sure. So I called security and said that there's two guys have just walked in. I don't think they're supposed to be here. It turned out to be Bill and Charlie UM. So that was my first introduction to them, which was great. And then Glenn followed him behind UM and everything was fine after that. UM and then UM and working with

Jimmy Miller was an inspiration. UM. I learned a lot about the feel of a record, the feel of a band playing together, because I'm all, you know, this is all I'm like a big sponge taking all this information in because coming from the love of of U film scores, musical scores, freights and Archer nat King Cole coming from that area of music. This is very very different, very different, but just as powerful, UM and just as illustrating. So UM. So in starting assisting on the Brown Sugar Sorry that

the Sticky Fingers album, that was it the Sticky Fingers album. UM. Some of those tracks have been recorded in the States, some mixed house at Star Groves, UM, some in the Olympic m I kind of I got the impression that Glenn um Glim was kind of interested still in the sessions,

but not much with the band. And I didn't realize that he you know, he'd been working with the band from day one, you know, from before they even got signed, so he had a long tenure with them, and and that the next thing, you know, after after they finished working with Glenn, then they worked with Keith Harvard on Black and Blue. And Keith Harvard was an Olympic engineer, so we were good friends. Keith also worked with Zeppelin, I mean a lot of Zepplin stuff. UM, we were

very close. And then I think it was on that album, on the Sticky Fingers album that UM I ended up doing overdubs with Mick, but did vocal overdubs with Mick. I recorded the saxophone on Brown Sugar with Bobby Bobby Keys Um and I think at that that moment in time, Stut and Glenn, who were very very close they had been for years, I think they kind of had a little chat thinking about in the future who might work

with the Stones, okay, and what they decide. Well, what happened was later a few years, some years later, after Black and Blue and what else came after that. It's only rock and roll, like, um, I was. I just got back from the States doing Peeda Frampton's Frampton Comes to Live album. Um And I arrived home and just got in the front door and about to unpack my suitcase and the phone rings and it's Stey and Stuart.

He said, Chris, what you're doing? And I said, oh great, Stu just got home, gonna I'm back and check out for you know, a few weeks. He said, no, you're not. He said, don't unpack, You're coming to Paris on Monday. You're doing the next Stones album. And that was some girls, Okay, let's go back. So you work on Sticky Fingers. Do you end up working with Frampton? Okay? Um. I was the assistant on a French artist called Johnny Halliday, and Johnny Holliday was the that the French elvis huge, huge

in France. Um, if you're with Johnny you can't go out anywhere you get mobbed. I mean he was a serious star, bless him. And I was the assistant on one of the albums that he was making, the Olympic and on on the second day, the staff engineer never turned up because he didn't like the French. So there's Johnny and the producer and the band turning up with no engineer. So they said to the management, well who can we use um And a few names were mentioned.

They said, well, we really like Chris. We've only worked with him one day, but we really like him. Can we use Chris? So that was kind of my launching pad. That was my first session in the hot seat, as it were. UM. And that session, the band that Lee had a Johnny's producer had assembled was Gary Wright, Hugh McCracken, Ringo Star, Klaus Worman, Peter Frampton. Um. You know, it was a dream session, UM for Johnny and for me.

So I got to work with those musicians at a very early age and UM, and that kind of started my friendship with Peter. I'd know him, Peter and Humble Pie UM and UM from the Johnny sessions we became really really good friends. UM. We used to hang out a lot together. We both I discovered a love of two things in that time of Tamila Motown music and the Scar music as well. UM. I actually used to go to a Scar club down in a surbiton um

Chessington actually um about ten miles out of London. I said, loves of ska music and Pete and I would you know, we start for you know, ages listening to Stevie Wonder listening to Tamla Motown UM and kind of you know, get so excited about the drum sound, the vocal everything about it um UM. And so that was a really introduction to a lot of key musicians that I went on to work with later. I worked with Gary Wright

later on with Spooky Tooth. As I said Peter, UM, so that was that was a big break for me actually, UM and I went on to produce I think six albums with Johnny Halliday in my career UM and some big big records UM Live at the Park, the Prince UM two. I think to live albums or three live albums, and to studio albums, and we were really really good friends, really good friends. Apart from the music, we we just really enjoyed each other's company. Um So, I missed him

a lot. At one point, you leave staff at Olempic and go independent. What are the decisions in there? Um? I can't remember which year it was, but I was becoming as a an engineer, as becoming, you know, I had so much work I would obviously I would always do Olympic because of the Olympic staff engineer. But then opportunities came along with bands who wanted to do it at other studios. So I decided I would leave Olympic as a staff engineer and become freelance, which I did.

Um and then then I discovered the joy of you know, working in other studios, other environments, which I loved doing. Um So. I used to work a lot at Basing Street Studios, which was Island Records that became PSALM years later. UM I used to work at Rack Studios. UM I worked at a place in Kent called Escape Studios with a band called Marmalade and Jeff Beck lived around the corner, so Jeff was always popping in UM and then Alvin Lee Halving had his own studio in his house at

Hook and Manner. I worked there, um, and then working with Johnny. I was in Paris a lot, doing sessions with Johnny in Paris as well. UM, so became almost like a gypsy, which I really enjoyed. You know, I'm only like my early mid twenties now m seventy one, um, and really moving around quite a lot. And then of course Paris with the Stones, which was I mean collectively maybe seven years of my life working with them and

doing you know, the three albums. Um, actually not seven years of my life in Paris, but we would have spent collectively maybe two two and a half years making those albums in Paris. Okay, let's go back a chapter three. Frampton announces he's leaving Humble Pie just before the PM breaks pick. Then he puts out four solo albums before he has the live album. First album. I just love that with you know by your side, when to change, unbelievable.

That was one of my favorite. That's the first album that I worked with Peter on and um he very kindly gave me an associate producer credit, which I didn't didn't understand what a producer credit was at that time, but it certainly helped. Um um Um. You know he was very nervous making that album, very excited but nervous because he was solo that the songs on the album. And I remember getting Jim Price and Jim Horn to

do the horns on on the Stones song that he covered. Um, and that that version I can't remember which song is it. Do remember what jumping Jack JUMPI Jack fashicles is Yeah, ba ba ba ba, but yeah, um that version is still one of my favorite versions of a Stone song actually. Um. And there was a lot of magical moments on that album that I could talk about forever. There was one where we recorded over another day. We recorded it in the stairwell at Olympic. Um. Um, you can hear a

seven four seven flying across about I think two minutes. Um. It's that, you know, we couldn't get rid of it obviously. Um. And it was only when you had like one one jone bell jet every half an hour, not every three minutes. So um um that that was a beautiful moment. Um. And Peter's guitar sound as well. Um, that's when I discovered quite a unique way of recording his little Ampeg amplifier with two microphones, one at the front and one at the back. Um. And yeah, that that was just

the absolute, um wonderful journey with Peter. And then and then after that was what was it? Well before we get I know that the album. Before we get to that, you mentioned I M pig. Tell me about since we're here, tell me about your feelings of the sounds of different amps, different microphones, different boards. How deep into that are you? You have favorites, things that don't work. Um. I do remember when the SSL desk came out that a lot of people were either you know, excited about it. A

lot of people didn't like it. They didn't like the sound of it. Um. I made some great records on the SSL desks. Although I'm um, I use any piece of equipment to get what I want from it rather than expecting it to do something. UM that the Nave console has a terrific sound. I mean every console has a sound to me. UM. The Olympic console, the nine console and the console which were built at Olympic for Olympic by Olympics. They were two of the best sounding

consoles UM I've ever heard. They musicality was really impressive. The same with the NAVE, but the controls are very different and you have to know how to add or subtract um the EQ that you're using on those. The problem with the SSL was you only had to turn the game NB just even on, and you had three dB barking at you. So you have to be very very careful, and I think a lot of engineers, lot producers overcooked the records and they started to sound a

bit skinny and thin. Um. But the advantages of the SSL soon became that with you know, with with lots of multi track happening, with for the eight track happening, you could alternate the faders, so that was pretty handy rather than um all hands on deck. Although I was never a fan of faulty eight track recording, I'm still

not UM. I still apply my discipline and my creative discipline in recording as if were an eight track or a sixteen track, or maybe a twenty four track, because it's so much easy to mix anything when you've only got to deal with sixteen faders or twenty four the most you know, when you've got like forty eight seventy two, it's um it's yeah, it's okay, but it's it's not fun. It's not it's not a performance mix um everything. It

becomes very linearized and very controlled. And a lot of records that I like, and a lot of records that a lot of people love. You know, we all talk about their um the great sounds and the recording some of the sixties, seventies, and eighties, and they're they're they're full of what people would say today, well they are. They're full of mishaps, mistakes, They're they're full of you know, some tuning problems, some timing issues. But that's what makes

the record human. That's what makes it possible to listen to it again and again and again. When you know, when I hear records that have all been quantized and they're all just snapped to a grid um, that music goes in, you know, in one ear, and you know, after about two or three plays, it's like, Okay, don't really even to hear that anymore because I'm not getting

anything from it. Okay. In terms of ems and Mike's UM, well, growing up in studios in the in the sixties and seventies, I mean, all you had was you just had you sixty seventhsmen sixty sevenths you forty sevens A KG four one fours m A k G D thirties, which is

the best past Dr Mike ever. Um so um, you were really you didn't know that these microphones were but well as good until many years later and you kind of figured out, well, that's why that sounds so good, because you've got that beautiful valve microphone going into a tape machine and analog tape. Um. So um, they're my favorite microphones, but I must say that Sure also on

the top of my list. Some time ago I was invited by Sure with Eddie Kramer to beta test the k S M forty four, which is Sure's kind of version of a U eighty seven but a fraction of the cost um and Eddie and I spent a good year or maybe two years in beta testing different versions and helping them get it right. So only I think

it was three years ago. Two years ago I had a master class at Kingston University UM and as part of the session UM I picked out four microphones and we had a blind shootout test with myself and the students as to what microphones sounded best and on the selection of instruments, not just one instrument. And this was a semi classical recording, so it was an electric guitar. There's nothing electrical, it's all it was. Remember it was piano, celestue,

acoustic guitar, violin um, clarinet, um. And I was so amazed. I mean I really couldn't believe it that the Shore beat are you eighty seven? It beat a four one four everything we put up, but there was one other I can't remember the other one one was but um they were old new versions of old microphones with this shure O case forty four and the Shore one. Every time it was like surreal. So I think sure for doing that. And amps and outboard gear, guitar amps yeah, um,

oh gosh wow, I think small old fenders. There's too many now, I mean I don't have any. I like the amps that the guitar player gets a great sound and he knows the the fire. I mean, I'm not working with musicians who don't have an app that they love and they know how to play and get a

result from um so um. Usually I'm working with people that have got terrific amplifiers, UM an out ball gear That's an interesting question because I'm in the middle of building a new studio at Olympic now when we've got We've got a nineteen seventy one leave console that's been completely restored. I've got eight of the sorry twelve of the original Olympic nineteen sixty six and nine Mike and EQS, Mike pres and EQUS, so we've got that covered. And I was looking at our balls stuff and there's so

much out there now. But really all I need is a couple of compressors, maybe a notch filter, an echo plate. That would be great, UM, because everything else is you know, it's unplug ins. UM. You know I I don't have a problem, UM with digital at all, although I do know that some of the most enjoyable records to work on and to mix and to live with have been

recorded on analog and then put into pro tools. UM. I did this on two of the master classes that I was talking about, where UM, the the university has a twenty four track student and I'll only teach a UNI where they have analog tape machines because that's where it all comes from for me. UM. Talking about the discipline. UM, wonderful times with the students and the musicians. Because these musicians are young musicians, they actually haven't recorded on analog before,

so to give them that experience was quite fascinating. UM. In terms of like, um, where you can't tell me now that you want to over another xylophone because we've only got one track left, so I'm gonna have to bounce down the violins and the viola onto one track. They go, yeah, but we can change it. They can't. We say no, that's it. It's and at first they've very nervous, and then two hours later they can completely

forget about it. Yeah, because it's done. And and that's another thing about you know, making great records, is that um, with all the options in digital world now, where people aren't committing to a balance UM, it's um. I think that makes for very strange sounding records. And the beauty of bouncing something down isn't really a restriction because you're committing to it and you're building your sound around that sound, rather than trying to build a sound collectively from a

hundred tracks or whatever you've got. And in terms of electronics, studio amps make a difference what speakers you listen to, what speakers you mix on UM speakers. Yeah, that's a wonderful question. Um um I I I like PMC speakers. I'm sitting in front of a pair now, I of Proact. I've got three bears of pro Act. I traveled all around the world with pro Rex. There might go to little speaker with a Bryson amplifier. UM. I've also um

um amphion speaker. UM. I was introduced to them maybe five years ago, I think when they when they first appeared in the UK, and I was working with a artist from Norway. UM great blues guitar player called Um Area Linton. UM. I think that's happened outside the last day. We can't remember. Area An Area knew the the the the guy who made these speakers. So this they sent them over for me to listen to, and I didn't

get on with them. But then four years later I was doing a show with a p I UH and they had the new versions of the speakers, and they blew me away. I mean I preferred those two putting anything I heard that day because I could listen to them for hours and hours and not get fatigued. Not that I listened allowed volume um anymore. Um but they were just really beautiful to listen to. And I like a speaker where I can close my eyes and not think of the speaker or know what a speaker it is.

You know some speakers, I go, that's a JB L. That don't like that, that that's a Genelect Jenna lets are great, but they've got their own sound, so if you know that, you can work with them. Every speaker's got its own identity. Um. Although a speaker, like a product, is so flat, it doesn't have an identity, but people don't. Some people don't like that, so you have to work

harder to get a good mix out of that. Which brings me back to the Yamaha, the black NS ten that we all used to use, um and a p over the over the twitter that was Bobby clear Mountain's discovery, an antissue paper over the tweeter. Um and um, and sure they you had to really work hard to get something to sound good on those shitty little speakers. But once you've got it sounded great, it would translate everywhere. UM. So I'm very I'm always not sure of speakers when

someone says to me, it's the best sounding speakers. Okay, So you play something UM that you've mixed or recorded and you know, sure it's gonna sound big good because it's already good. But if you're working on that speaking from scratch, it's a different you know, I think it's a different Kettler Fish. You mentioned the brace and the amplifier. Are you someone who uh you know different the amplify amplifier types, different brands are not as specific on that,

not so specific, but I do. I've worked. I've been working a lot with you know, dsp amplifiers built into speakers, and I find that my ears I get fatigued a lot quicker than I do with as if I'm using a analog amplithia UM with speakers on the end of it UM. So I don't know if that's my age

or it's just my brain. Let's just while we're on this topic, let's just go to the digital analog in terms of okay, you know they have now playback at a much higher resolution even then c D, whether you're okay, And then we have this analog revolution with vinyl, with things cut digitally whereas opposed to something that was originally cut analog. What are your feelings about all this well it it seems to me that it's all going to

end up on digits anyway. Even if you record it on analog, you mix it on analog, it's going to get into digits. I need to be on you know, to be on streaming on Apple Spotify, or if if you're making a vinyl record only, you're still okay, you'll have the stereo, you have the stereo mixtape to take to have the mastering done for your vinyl. But there's not any other situations. I don't think where you're going to use that stereo tape to create an analog master

for an analog source like a vinyl record. So um, I think that's a very limited, very niche market. Well, we're an agreement on that, But the question would become, if we're going with digital or vinyl, where do you come down on that argument? Can I just stay with analog? You could stay with the analog. But but you're saying we're living in a digital world unlike when we grew up. Music is a portable one of the you know, I think you know, the sound has affected what music we get.

You know, we have the compression wars, the loudness wars, and then of course we have Spotify equing everything. And this is all affected. If you go back through the stereo revolution of the sixties and seventies, people had great systems, people mix for that. Now people are listening on earbuds, we have beats with you know, push base. So I

agree we're really living in a digital world. And as you stated earlier, analog you know, is a minor factor, but it punches above its weight in terms of inc You know, we have this a lot of society, not only in music. We're constantly reading about vinyl, even though you and me know it's a very small part of the marketplace. We also know that the average person doesn't have the playback equipment of a quality that they could

even tell the difference. But if you have a typical this point three thousand dollar system and it's the it starts as digital, what do you prefer the end digital product or the analog product? Or is it subtle? Do you hear a difference? Now? I can hear if a record has been recorded on analog tight and then put into digital and release as opposed to a digital digital. I could actually hear that um and also I can feel it as well. Uh, I kind of it resonates

in my mind and my body in a different way. Um, I am. That's funny you mentioned that because I feel my example was, you know, the early days of c D s. I put and I got I never want to have any clipping, any distortion. I got plenty of power. Yeah, And I got the A C D C back in black c D and I crank it. My ears are bleeding, Okay. Then I put on the vinyl LP and your ears didn't lead. You know, it's like in the whole house shakes and you feel some people might say you're hearing

the distortion, but it's night and day. It is night and day. I totally agree with you. And if I have so many c DS that I never played anymore, now I've got thousands upon thousands my vinyl which I've got about six thousands. I played them every day. I mean, you know, there's always something out on the turntable. But the CDs, it's only the you know, the quick availability of them. Um that uh yeah, and um so I'm not sure where alive with this one. I mean, I

just love the sound of analog. I know it's going to end up in the digital format. Somehow, because no one's going to be listening to analog real to real. No one's gonna be listening to cassettes. No one's going to be listening to a analog tape that goes straight onto vinyl. But um, I think if you can keep analog in the chain somewhere, you know, you're preserving some some part of that magic, some part of that thing that you and I hear and love so much. Um.

So let's be black and black, black and white. If it's digitally from beginning to end, Does it make any sense to put it on a vinyl record? No, I don't think it does. Now you might as well be split on the CD. Um. Yeah, yeah, you know, I find it's to finish it makes more sense. Yeah, because in fact, put it on vinyl, you're gonna have to roll off everything below fifty sides, so and to say at the top end as well. So it's yeah, that's not working at all. I recently I do a lot

of mastering as well. But mastering I would never pertain to be the mastering engineer like Bob Ludwig or my friend Ray stuff. But I do do a lot of mastering to help UM people who you know who have kind of would I say, problem albums um or need some real lifts, something different in it. And I do things like I'll add rever to the whole mix in the chorus. Because the mixes flat, the mixesn't happening. They don't have the money to go and remix it or it, but I can help it by doing that. So UM,

I love doing the mastering. And and I actually mastered something a few months ago that was from cassette and it sounded amazing. I mean it really did sound warm and beautiful and of that moment um. You know, there was a bit of hiss, but you can you can get rid of that easy enough. UM. And it was just sound enjoyable to listen to again and again and again.

I really have to thing about analog tape. I can listen to any recorded performance UM that's been recorded the originally an analog, even if it's gone into digital later, and it pleased me a lot more than listening to something that's digital digital digital. Okay, when do you start mixing records as supposed to just recording them? Um? When did I start just mixing records? UM? I don't think there's many records that I've only mixed. Actually I think

generally i've I've always recorded and then mixed everything. Um. It was the opposite way round where Um, I do remember fondly um when it must have been. It was Missed You with the Stones, and i'd mixed the album. Um and Earl McGrath, who was the president of the Stones label at that time, lovely man not with us anymore, but true gentleman, his best man at my at my wedding, um um and um sorry not the best man he

was at the wedding. And a he had this um young kid at the power station that was just started to mix people's records who he's really a champion him and his name was Bob clear Mounting. So there was an The first time I heard that someone else was going to mix my recording, I got really piste off and I was really like, well, what the fun's going

on there? And then a one the full thing happened. Um. A few months after that record came out, after Miss You came out, I was working in Los Angeles and I was driving down pc H as you would do, maybe not now, but then you could. And I remember it fundly. I'd have rented Mustang and I had the hood down. I was blasting the radio and Miss You came on and I'm listening to it. I'm going, ship man, Bob is a genius. This sounds freaking awesome. This is fantastic,

really really excited. And and then um, the difference between Bob's mix and my mix was is that Bobby's mix was the edited version and my mix was the unedited version. So my mix had the sax solo at the end, and all of a sudden, the sax solo came on and I went, oh, ship this isn't Bobby's mix, It's

my mix. And that at that point I dropped all, you know, kind of hostility to was anyone who had to remix something that I would recorded, because I figured out as long as i'd recorded it and got the groove and the sound and got it in the pocket from the you know, from the get go, it would you had to be stupid to fuck it up in

mixing it, in remixing it. And I've always stuck by that, although I won't stick by that now with Dolby Atmos mixing, because I've had some experience with that which we might get too later. I don't know, I definitely do want to get to that. But but reversing the question, what was the first record or when did you start not only recording the records but also mixing them. Um, well, thee the Fountain albums that would have been would have

been one period, that would have been one set of records. Um. I'm actually looking at my cv nows um. I had to print it out because I appear on seventy seven albums. I think it was something ridiculous. Um um okay, so killing Joke, Love like Blood, night Time, Brider than the Thousand Sons, recorded them, mixed all of that, although although some years later and brighter in the Thousand Sons, the record company got Julian, the Australian mixer Julian. What's Julian's

last name? Um? M hm uh and Julian was a very good mixer, but kind of flavor of the month when the album came out. So and then many years later my mixes were released um on another version and it was just nice to see that the fans appreciated my mixes as much as Julian's mixes. UM Marillion Um Diesel part West, Johnny Halliday, the Proclaimers Bill Wyman ten years after UM I recently recently remixed the Spacing Time for Chrystalist Records because it's the fourtieth anniversary of that album.

UM And that album was a real special special experience for me and Alvin as well in terms of it was kind of Alvin. It was there almost like their Sergeant Pepper. It was the first album that they used string arrangements on UM and Alvin and I were like sonic fairies. We would really we wanted to push the boundaries of of sound. Um So in in mixing the album again forty years later, um So it was recorded in seventy nine, I think I think it was UM and it was on sixteen track so um it was

in pro tools. You know, the analog had been dumped into protols. UM And There's two ways that one can mix an album or even produce some recording an album. One is you record it faithfully, honestly of what you're hearing in the studio. There's nothing much to do with it other than capture an incredible performance, you know, instilling that in the musicians great rhythm section, or get the band to a level where they're performing at their best and you press the re call back with the write

microphones to right console and you get it. Then there's the one where UM, you capture that same those same ingredients, but knowingly that when you mix it, you're gonna mess with it, You're going to really experiment with it. UM. And that's what I discovered in remixing the Space in Time album because UM, I loaded the multi track in the sixteen track and we didn't even use all sixteen tracks either, so it wasn't as if there was a a pilet of information there. But what we did, what

Alvin and I did with those mixes was unbelievable. I couldn't. It took me. It took me about three days to mix each song to try and figure out what the hell I'd done because they just sounded so good. UM. And we only had a e M T echo plate, two compressors. UM. We had the Olympic console, which thankfully Eddie Cramer did a clone e q U of the same desk that I recorded on the HLS Cramer e Q and also a pie a limitter because we have

PIO limits there. UM, the echo plate, tape delay. Anna Leslie now that Leslie I used to great extent because I was I think I'm really right in saying that when I mixed, I'd love to change the world. It was the Leslie that gave it the identical, identifiable sound um that you know, added to the atmosphere of the record. UH created that you know, that great song that hit um and other Leslie sounds had not been heard really

as prominent as that before. So um it was a real challenge and quite wonderful to go back um um. I could actually I got into a position where I could almost remember how I was mixing it um because mixes them were a performance, you know, they weren't all um on the computer, so you could nudge this little bit there, that little bit there. It really was like you'd start from zero and then you'd end up at plus eight or somewhere in riding the faders um um,

and and even arranging the mix on the go. Of course, the other way to do that would be to mix it in sections and edited together as well, which I did with the LP. So um that was it was a really good journey to go back um um you know, um test my knowledge of how I made that sound, and I look forward to sharing that with students as well. Actually it was really good. Okay, let's stay on that point. Remixing professionals learned how to get the most out of digital.

Record companies wanted to milk the audience for more money, so they were constantly equeuing records remastering them on digital. But then it became an issue remix. There's this guy, Steven Wilson did Jo throw tall, a lot of other things. He literally remixes to sound exactly like the original, only cleaner. Yeah, I know Stephen, I know Stephen, and in fact he's I mean that's a real task because he's remixing something

we know. He wasn't there any original sessions. He's got no notes, he's got a multi check, he doesn't know what solo was used, what vocal was used. I mean, it's a month's worth of detective work before he can even in, you know, at the leaves sting of mixing it. Um. So yeah, that's um. I wouldn't have the patients to do that, Okay. So in any event, they sound Donna called to the originals, but cleaner you go to the Beatles remixes and not good with Giles but I find

it's offensive. These are classic records one of the other, and I'm worried that the remixes will take over from the originals as time goes on. Well, the only take over if that that's the only thing is available. UM and And I totally agree with you about I really I've had some big wars and problems with with record companies remastering a record I've recalled him mixed produced um and.

It's gone from label to label to label over the last thirty years, and each time it ends up with the new label they remastering, It's like, we got it right the first time, Why are you fucking with it again? One big problem for me was when UM, I think this was about five years ago, UM them Some Girls was reissued and remastered UM and UM. I wasn't sent anything to approve it. Um. The only time I got to hear it was when I bought it or downloaded it, and I was terrified at what I heard. I mean,

I was really in shock. It was terrible. It had been compressed to death. It was that whole a loudness war thing, and it didn't even it didn't sound like the same record that I made I mean, it's hard to believe that remastering can screw screw something up so much, but it can. So I complained to The Stones, to the management, um, and I just got a reply back saying, well, it's got a five star review. You know it's okay. And then three months later I looked on Amazon and

everyone was saying this is atrocious. I want my money back. It's a load of crap. And every review was the same. So you know, I stick with my original statement. UM. So yeah, remastering. There's only been a few remasterings that I've really enjoyed. Mom was the Peter Tosh album that I did, and that was we mastered. Um. Um Abbey Road that did sound really really good. Um. And Jimmy Cliff album Um Special that we master sounding good, but Old Merillian sounding good too. Um. It's um yeah. Mainly

the Stones is quite it's quite atrocious. Okay, go back to space in time the ten years after album. What is your goal in remixing it? If I know the original, Well, how will I hear the remix? What might be different? Um? A little bit like what you said about Steve Wilson is that there's a there's more clarity, especially on the drum sound um and the vocal sound um. Trying to get the guitar sounds the same as the album that

was a Allen's as well, um um. But definitely the drums because um, we would have mixed those songs maybe well definitely like to maybe three mixes a day. I mean, we didn't spend a lot of time that one does or or went on to do in mixing. Um. So the drums, I think, of anything, will possibly suffer because the drums were recorded on either two tracks or three tracks um um. So it was quite limited at the time with what you could do with that if you

really wanted to mess with it. So um, there's definitely a lot more clarity all around, I think. Um. And also there were a couple of tracks on the album the original mixes why I always felt that the vocals were a little bit too low. UM. So I did push those up a tiny bit, but I respected and I think any anyone who has asked to remix anything. I mean, I was fortunate because I recorded the original, so you know, at least I had a clue, well

the big clue of course of me. So um. But in sending something an album that to a mixer who's not been involved with it at all, who doesn't even really know the music, but it's just been asked to remix it was the label, you know, the copyrights running out, and they want to you know, remix it to reissue it.

I think that's really dangerous and I think the major record companies, if they're going to continue doing that, they should actually form like a consultium of of producers and mixes from that period who, you know, at least have some consultation with whoever they're farming it out to to mix, you know, to make sure there's respect to the original record. Okay, let's go back to Frampton. He puts out the first record most people have no idea who Free Empton is,

makes some impact, then forms the band Camel. Not as good as a first record, but very good. You talk about Tamla Motown. There's a great cover of I Believe When I Fall in Love with You will Be Forever Ward album. Something's happening, artistic and commercial disappointment. Fourth album when many people have given up, an incredible home run Fampton and Yeah, and then all of a sudden there's

the Comes Alive double album, explain what happened there. Um. Well, the live versions are faster than the album the studio versions, so there's a you know, obviously there's that incredible injection of adrenaline on the live performance. Um um. And also I think with I think with a lot of artists, then when you're a solo artists coming from a rock and roll band to go out on your own and make a solo album, UM, it takes maybe a year or two for you to really know the songs that

you're performing. Um. And they obviously changed quite a lot from the recording in the studio to what they actually go out on the road and sound like. Um. Just in terms of you might have the same musicians that you use in the in the study video recording, and when you go on the road, you've got the group musicians that you're playing with year in, year out, so

it's it's more honed down um um UM. I think when Peter went out on the road and did that huge slog around which you know, the Fampton comes a live album came from where when they went out and did that, um, just put the pro tools so it didn't stop. It's okay, just screen up, um. When Um, when Peter went out on the road and slogged around for for ages doing those performances. Um, two things happened. I think one was that the band were really really

tight and Peter had his act down. And Peter had also moved away from this musician songwriter didn't really think of himself as a singer, but say uh, and I think it was always holding himself back from the singing. But when he got front of stage in fact of the audience, that's changed all of a sudden, you know, he broke through that barrier, um and just put his heart on the line and his voice on the line,

and it connected with people. Um. The most wonderful thing in mixing that album was that you could actually you could just push up the four two or four. There would have been two I think maybe three audience mix and just from listening to the audience was like, you know, you would get the adrenaline as well. And they weren't huge gigs, whether they were like the film or East. They were you know, pretty small rooms per se um. But wow, what sound and what a joy to mix.

I mean, um, you know, there was a lot of stories about all a lot of stuff has been replaced. We never replaced anything except for a piece of world It's Them where the words of the lead had come out. And there was one other thing, a technical break where something was missing, and we replaced that. But that was it, and we definitely didn't double up on the audience either. Um you know, it was what it was. And there's a great story about that album, which I'm sure you

may have heard. But um so d Anthony, Peter's manager at the time, said okay, you know we're going to do a single album. That's it. Let's get it finished, and were presented to the label. Um and so finished mixing the first album as it were, Jerry Muss came down to the studio, listened to it all back. He's sitting there. After we played side one, side to he said, where's the rest? We were what do you mean? He said, what is it? Where's all the where's the rest of

the concert? Where the other songs? They said, it's got to be a double album, so we had to go back in and mix the rest of the album. So, um yeah, d you got that one really wrong. Um so yeah, that was and after that, you know, Peter's life changed dramatically. I mean the the start and that he had to endure and he wasn't really prepared for it either. I mean it really it really hit him by surprise. Um, and his manager didn't help us, as

he has told me. Um, did you have any idea Frampton Comes Alive was going to be the phenomenon that it was? No? Not as big as it was, No way, I did feel that it was. It was at the time, maybe one of the best live sounding records ever, because I've heard a lot of you know, live albums at the time, and nothing seemed to come close to it

sonically or as an experience as well. Um, it was almost like the whole songs on this kind of I know, UM, this plateau, this air, they were like floating around, but they were so positive sounding, and that was the audience. How did you feel when Peter did not use you on the next album, Mom and You and it was a disaster? Well he did use me on that album. Oh I didn't know. I thought you just came back

and they returned to form the one after that. Tell me your experience of arming you were it was a disaster and it wasn't. I think I came Did I come back? Under force I might have with D. I don't know. D was a very vicarious manager, not a very nice person actually, um and UM. I think I came back more out of support of Peter, But I was pretty bitter at the time because I've been promised, you know, to be part of Peter's career. If it was successful, I would get a percentage, you know, a

producer percentage. I never received any of that. D D threatened actually to UM. Yeah, he he made some comments that if I ever approached Peter for any money or anything like that, I'd never work in New York City again, which is a young twenty four year old terrified the ship out of me, um and and it was very difficult for me to go back and work with Peter. Um and I'm in you because of that, um And that actually in going back and working and I'm in you.

UM after that, I don't think we worked together after that, but I think you worked one more time, Oh yeah on Churchill. Yeah yeah, not not. But also we're you saying the album where I should be, Where I should be? Yeah, okay, So but after where I should Be, it was still not a very good you know, not very good atmosphere all around really um, still with D you know, in control. UM and this this kind of relationship with Peter where UM, I felt like, hey, come on, step up to the plate.

You know, it's like I've paid my jewes with you. Um and UM and not realizing that he was being completely you know, ripped off by D, that his life was a mess UM and D was also part of that UM. And so after that it was almost like my friendship, my love for that man, you know, stopped and it really really hurt me in a lot of ways, as I'm sure he did Peter. And then many years later we got back together. We took all the ghosts at the closet, UM, and we kind of made up,

hugged and it was back to the music again. It was fantastic. You know, he's a genius. I love him to bits and he's been such a good friend you know since we did all that so um, and he was a part of my career and my whole you know success story. Really, so I can't you know, I can't knock him for that. I never knocked him for anything. It was just it was just sad that you know, he wasn't really guided and advised right yeah to um to look after himself, to support himself and to support

his friends around him. Um. So, but that happens okay. You talked about the producer's percentage on the Frampton albums. At what point did you start getting a producer's uh percentage? And this was in the development I mean this is varied from zero to five cent for a long time. The standard was for who negotiated your deals and and how or did you do it yourself? And when did you start getting a percentage? Oh? No, I didn't do it myself. I had a couple of managers at the time.

One was Rick Aliberti, American manager at would Stop Now. Another one was Mims scala Um out of London. Um. They were two oh Satha Jeffrey as well at one time in London. UM. And I think um um, I think the first voti the first valty check with the first producer agreement was with Johnnie Halliday. UM and boy was that a good yeah, good one to have um.

And it was respect from both sides, so that was wonderful. Um. And then Marillion, kidding joke actually got a contract with Peter Tosh, which was amazing um and Jimmy Cliff psychedelic first Um. Um what else? Um, there's a band in the Australia that I produced with Noise Works. We were quite big um so um yeah, yeah, you get a percentage of the Stones records. No, no, I did get I did at one time. I got half of a penny, half of the US penny and I kind of cashed

it in, um because well that's my next question. Did you sell it back to them and all your royalties do you still own or did you cash those? Now? I keep I still don't know my royalties. But a long time ago, UM, I just got into such a bitter place with the Stones for not being offered or given a worldy apart from that half of any um, I just wanted to get rid of the kind of

I don't know. I just wanted to get rid of that feeling, um that I hadn't been kind of respected or I was respected, but I didn't feel as if I was really part of the team as it were. I think they, you know, they realized the new I brought a lot to the table for them in terms of sound and production, you know, capturing it and keeping it going when time was really hard for them, like tattoo you when they weren't talking to each other, um, and and there was no one really there, you know,

fighting for me. I mean I was, you know, just in love with my profession what I did, and um, it was only you know, after the fact, you know, you sit back and go, well, hey, those guys are getting three percent, they're getting a percentage, and they're doing bugger all. I've done twice as much more than they've ever done, and I'm not getting anything. So but I learned to kind of, you know, just ditch all that and forget about it, because that's not That's not what

it's about. It's about making the music. And if you live with that bitterness and that contempt around you, you're a miserable person. And a lot of books that I've read by producer engineers, that's that's the basis of the book. Um um um. I am going to write a book. My book will be nothing like that. I mean, I've got so many great, great funny stories about every album I've ever made. I think that are really just fun to talk about and to rediscover. Okay, other than investments,

does enough money come in from royalties to live on UM. No, no, definitely not not with streaming UM and UM, I mean I I started my own little digital label earlier this year because during COVID, I I did, you know, I've always been a little bit of a writer, So I did in writing with Robert Hart Gary Granger some years ago, maybe ten years ago, which we never came out. And then during Lockdown there was a musician who got in

touch with me. Funny enough, he was a fan of Peters UM and that's how he found me on my website and I kind of nurtured him and helped him in songwriting, and then he got to the point where I went, who I really like where this is going out lyrically? UM. So we kind of joined together and we would co write you know, the songs, UM. And then we actually we made about and this is just the two he's he's programming and playing everything. I'm adding some stuff over here. But it's the type of album

I've never made before. UM. But I did enjoy doing it because you know, I couldn't go to a studio, so I had to do something keep it in so UM and then UM, you know, we've actually finished about four albums and so a very good friend of mine, Robin Miller said, rob is that she said, just do your own digital little label, do it with a wall. So I set it all up and it was very lucky to come up with the name Undercover Music, so there's a bit of a link to the Stones, which

was cool. Um, and then started releasing stuff on that and then I was I just found how hard it is to be a musician out there today, because unless you've got some kind of link to someone who's got such a huge social network presence, it's like you might as well be basking. I mean, it is really tough. I mean I think I've got something like two thousand

Facebook followers, so of course they were all alerted. But even so, the streaming income is just, you know, it's quite sad, and I kind of thinking, I was thinking, wow, if I've just you know, there's been a thousand streams today that could have related to maybe like back in the day, like maybe four hundred singles sales, you know, physical sales. So um it sets them my wondering about stuff.

But um um, but I do think that the musicians do have a better chance of getting their stuff out there now there's so many more platforms, but how they get it noticed and picked up is another thing. Um. And you know, I'm not a Twitter, I'm not on Instagram, I'm not I'm not in that. I have a young student from Kingston University who said, I'll do all that for you, so he does it for me. Bet him. But it's still, you know, it's very low key compared

to everything else that's going on. But but the satisfaction of doing it and getting it out there is much. You know, it's bigger and better than anything. Um. And I enjoy doing the videos. I enjoyed doing the the artwork for the covers because I always do a digital booklet upload um. And then and then the last album I released was my wife's album, which we discovered in Lockdown because she made some recordings back in nineteen seventies

seven and seventy nine. UM and I put those together and put that album out and one of the tracks on there with with Alvin and Mick Ralph's Salving the Mick Ralph's Um. The rest of the album is with musicians from a band called Carrillo Frank Carrillo at the time a long View Farm. We recalled it a long View farm UM and I also discovered six thousand and thirty five minute meter slides as I was really keen photographer, so used a lot of those photos from the sessions UM.

And we also had a track where UM, Christie and Keith did a duet together. UM. We were in Compass Point working on Undercover and Keith wanted to do it. Did this version of UM, Let's Go Steady Again, which was Sam cook it back in the day. And and Keith, you know new Christie's was singer because he'd heard the thing before and and he said, you get your wife in,

she's got a sing on this, and as she did. UM. And it was a wonderful moment actually of Keith when I approached his management and said, look, Christie's putting the album out, we'd love to include that duet on it. It's been you know, it's on bootleg, it's been out there on YouTube. At first management said no, and then two weeks they did. Keith piped in and said yep,

you could use it. So that that was a wonderful thing that he did for her really, quite specially now mentioning her engineers not to mention everybody on that side of the desk or afraid where they're going to get their next gig, and they tend to work around the clock, and it's hard to have relationships and hard to maintain relationships. How many times have you been married, And you've been married to this lady for a long time, how do

you sustain that doing all your work? Tend to be well not now people work during the day, but in the old days were working at night. And do you have any children? How did you maintain a family life? Well, we've been married forty one years, but um, that's a success story. Yeah, yeah, that's a platinum album there. And I've only been married once. We have two children, a son and a daughter. Um, and we're a very happy family,

very happy. And um, I was blessed because the woman that I married it was my biggest fan, um and is still my biggest fan today. And of course I'm a huge fan of hers as well. I mean, we did meet in the studio. We met at Hook and Alvin the studio because she was staying with Alvin and Susanne at the time doing some vocals on some Mick Ralph's stuff, and so of course I fell in love

with her voice as well. Um. And then she's from Minnesota, but she she was living in England a long long time ago, and that's never never moved back to Minnesota. UM and so UM, yeah, it's been it still is an incredible journey with the woman that I met all that time ago. And and what's really special about it is actually is that all the bands that I've ever worked through, UM, they know and love her as well, you know, they there's a respect for both of us there.

I'm very fortunate in so much as every every band of musician I think I've ever worked with, UM, there's never been a really ugly falling out moment. I mean, I'm not that type of person. I mean, you know, the whole thing with the business side is a little bit different sometimes UM, as I discussed earlier. But even so, you get through those moments and you're still you know, when you see friends, even if I was to see Mick or Keith in the street, you know, it's still

a good feeling. It's a good vibe. But I actually bumped into Do and event last week because they were Olympic doing some interviews for their new album, and it was so it was as if I just saw them about two weeks ago. I mean that's it's nice guys anyway, they really are um, um, you know, really sort of the earth guys and uh, and just a lot of love and respect of what we do. That's the main thing. Okay, let's talk about the stone to come back from recording

and finishing for him. It comes alive. You get the call for some girls, you end up working for them for you know, for your stuff comes out, like for fourteen or fifteen years. So what was the experience working with the starts? UM? Well, I was actually I was. I was surprised how little um they were coming into the control. In fact, Charlie never came into the control, when Bill hardly came into the control and mc keith

well occasionally come into control. And but after I set up in Paris, um, you know, like the first week and got a sound together UM and had things as I wanted it, and um, they came in to listen for one playback and then they just looked at each other kind of like nodded. I didn't say really anything to me, UM, And then I just kept recording UM and logging everything, and you know, I talked to them about sounds. You know, guitar sounds sometime or parts or whatever,

but not a lot. But it was really keeping my eye on the ball to make sure everything was going down when it should go down, or or if I felt that a track was really not happening, you know, I'd say, guys, I think you should change and try something else now. Um. But um it was. It was a really like a big football team in a way, um, because it was only as strong as you know, the whole team on the pitch really um and some girls. Was a really interesting period because because of keith situation

with the Canadian um um. You know he might have gone to prison um so and he was still using at the time as well, So there was a there was interesting shift of power. I realized now where Mick was was, you know, could have in control a lot more.

But but incredibly supportive to Keith. Incredibly supportive. You know, he wasn't stripping him down that you know, he because Keith would disappear for a couple of hours to the bathroom, um, you know, in the middle of a session and then come back, or you know I did see him might nod off a few times with the guitar sound, so um,

so Mick was incredibly supportive. And then then kind of Keith suddenly woke up from it all and but that the thought that that might be the last Stones or the last recording with Jaggon and Richards for quite some time him. I think that really gave the album a special energy um which and being in Paris was wonderful as well. It's a great city for them to work in. And the studio um was it was very basic, but in a great year my t G one two three four five console um which is a great sounding old

console um and that helped a lot. That is the sound of those records act. Okay, now there are all these stories about the Stones. They right in the studio, they might excavate something from years before. How did the songs ultimately come to be on some girls? Uh? Well some girls all the songs with it in the studio pretty much. That's why I took about a year to recall. So what's what's that actually like? Never mind the cost, Well, the cost wasn't that bad because make had done a

deal with the studio. He got the cheapest studio in Patio Marconi. There were three rooms and he picked the cheapest one. Um, until it got to the point where, UM, where he thought it would be better if we moved into the NIV room because there was a more expensive need room. But I loved the sound of the ear my console. The control room in the ear my room was tiny. You couldn't get more than four people in there. Um, and I quite like that too, So UM, I really

stuck up to stay in that studio. And Keith loved the sound in that studio too, so we didn't move. We stayed in the cheaper studio. So I don't think the cost was that, you know, was what It wasn't anything like, you know, two thousand bucks a day. It was more like that two hundred bucks a day, and

it's really cheap. So but it was a situation where, um, you know, Michael Keith would come in with a song that you know, the basics of a song, a bit of a verse riff and a chorus riff, and then you know, just played them through with the other members of the band, played them through and through and through and try different fields, different grooves on them, different tempos, until you know you'd find one that's all of a sudden everybody went, oh, that's it. Let's stick with that

that way, that's the way to do it. Um. Um. It took a lot of you know, a lot of logging from my point of view, to log every song, every song title, every take um. Um. So but it was a long process. It was a really long process. Um Um. I think we must have been there for some Girls Gosh, I think we might have been there for that four months, maybe five months. It was a long time. Um. But in doing that, you know, not only did we recalled some Girls album, but we recorded

a lot of tattoo you as well. Um. You know a lot of tracks from that period um ended up on other albums. Okay, So are you keeping the tape machine running the whole time or only when they're doing takes? Oh no, there's no discussion of are we doing a take? They're just performing and I'm recording. There's there's never no one ever says, okay, let's do one. No, that didn't happen. No, It's just you keep your eye on the ball. You

get a feel for what's happening in the room. Um, and you have to kind of really be connected with it and second guess it so that you know that Okay, somebody's gonna happen. Make sure we're running UM and you get it. So, if you're recording everything, you know, tape is big and expensive. Do you ever say, well, there's nothing on this real I'm gonna record over it. Um. Yeah, maybe a little bit, but it wasn't very often that

there was nothing on it UM. And I was running at fifteen i p s. So you know that that's a lot of minutes. It's not like thirty ips. We've only got eighteen minutes. It's more than that. So but we did. Yeah, I think we must have elected about four hundred ls of tape UM, which was which was quite interesting when you'd have to ship it all to New York to work and do some overdubs. Obviously you wouldn't ship the whole four hundred rills, but it was

definitely like eight riels that you chip over UM. So there's a big trunk of tape coming over to the States for sure. Okay, at the time, Miss You was seen as a disco song playing to disco. What was going on? How did that get created? Well? Um? Bill loved UM. He loved the club scene in Paris regimes. Glad of remember the name of the club. There was

a club called Regimes that he would go to. Um and you know it was it was it was at the good time of what I called disco before I think before it became digitized, and it was musicians playing a lot of it. Um and um, I know that I fondly remember that Bill Um. You know, that whole baseline was Bill's invention and that was really that was the driving force of the song really. Um. So that was a great you know, it was a great moment for Bill um. And yeah I missed Bill. I mean

I missed him in the Stones ex it um. So yeah that that record was one of the type and it wasn't like a cheesy disco song either. Yeah. Yeah, and um when whenever whenever, Mick you know, adds a bit of narrative in the song, like talking like he did it just exactly. It just adds, you know, this wonderful imagery to it without a picture, and that's what he does. So well, that's what you know, that's always what I loved about his his lyrics and his performance

as well. I mean, working with Miking the studio is working. It's like watching a prize fight about on the microphone because he you know, he'll he'll do his warm up exercises. He makes sure he's fit before he sings you know, one word um, because he has the pair and the energy to keep going. And also he's dancing all the time he's singing, you know, until it's time to be on mike, and then he's right in front of the

microphone on it. Um. Yeah, kind of the opposite the key Keith let's straight all over the room singing so um. It's quite funny. The two of them is lovely. Okay. My favorite other other than Issue on that album is rarely mentioned when the Whip comes down, but the track that constantly you know, goes on there's Waiting for a Friend. But forget that Shattered. How did Shattered come back? Yeah? I think that's the first because at that period, I

remember Keith getting two guitar pedals. Um. So I remember that the guitar amps. Everyone was playing through boogie the fires which were really loud, I mean really loud um, and I would have to go down and turn them down sometimes because um, the way I set did up was like in a semi circle, and and I put a small p a up so people could hear mixing to get an idea of you know, where the vocal was and the melody, rather than news headphones which worked to treat but if the guitar has got too loud

and you couldn't hear the p a um. So. But Keith got two pedals at that time. One was an m XR phaser and the other one was the m x R analog delay, and that's what's on Shattered and it was that that whole kind of you know, he was kind of messing around with that riff, and then the pedal came along and we said, oh, let's try the pedal on this, and he went, wow, I let

you know. And I think in a sense it took him back to maybe like um um, the Everly Brothers sound or something you know of his favorite you know, records in his past that because he was he would give you the most amazing mixtapes, mainly of reggae, a lot of reggae stuff or Hank Williams, you know, a mixture of reggae, Hank Williams Everly Brother's buddy Holly. And he was always giving me mixed mixtapes, which is fantastic. Um, I kind of could hear that from the Shattered riff? Um?

Uh yeah, because it's quite It's a very different song in every way in its arrangement and mixed vocals on it. Uh yeah, it's um but it was a song that's um. I mean it always you know Jagger Richards, but um, some are more Richards than Jagger, some are more jagged than Richards. Um. And that to me was more of a Keith song. We're mixed singing on the top. Okay, I made a mistake waiting on a friend is on

Tattoo You. Tattoo You, of course has the iconic start me up, but you were saying it was a fraud experience as the Dagon Richards had issues. So tell me about the making of Tattoo You. Um. Well, UM, I can't remember now what the circumstances were. More likely that Mick had dona solo album or he was getting into

being a film producer. Um. But Mick and Keith were not on talking terms, not on good terms at all, and it came to the point where they needed an album and Prince Rupert Lowenstein, who was the manager at the time, approached me and said, Chris, you know of any tracks that might be around that we could use to put out. And I said, well, yeah, I know,

because I still got like a photographic memory. I knew a lot of tracks that I'd recorded on the Emotional Rescue and some girls that hadn't been released and hadn't been used. So UM, I said, if I know of that, there's six or seven that I know of. I said, I'm pretty sure there'll be some others in the vaults. So UM, I spent three months going through all of their all of their tapes and kind of put together

a selection of songs to send them to listen to. UM. And it took a while to get the feedback, but UM, over a period of time it came back that we honed it down to you know the songs that are on Tattoo today. Um. The only thing I had to do really was to get Mick to finished vocals because on a lot of them the vocals weren't complete. Um, there were vocals, but lyrically they might not be complete, or is just repeating the same verse because he hadn't

written the verse or whatever. So UM, Mick did take It took a while to get him to complete the vocals and and we ended up doing most of the vocals in the strangest situation. Um. We had the rolling Stones mobile in Paris and I remember it being winter for sure, um. And for some reason, UM, he chose to do them in a warehouse next to a like a train depot station where they washed all the trains on the edge of the periphery. So we're at in

the middle of nowhere doing vocals in the stones mobile. Um. Anyway, we finished all the vocals, we got those done, um. And then Charlie had the idea to put sunny ronnings on neighbors um and got that finished. Yeah. And then but I think I can safely say if if if it hadn't been for me knowing where the things were and knowing what was there, um and putting it all together, it wouldn't have happened. Well. The funny thing is, but that I'm an agreement that is considered to be the

last great phenomenal album. It's gotten a lot of respect forty years. Hence it's kind of interesting it is. I mean, it's got a lot of and what I love about the album is that you don't get the impression that it's songs from different albums. It's he It sounds like a purpose written album, which in a way always bugged me. I think you know, he, you know, Meet never likes to go back anytime, so you know, it was it was it was a bit of a chance to get it, get it, you know, for him to to finish it

in that way. So, but it is. Um. I wish I could remember whose genius idea it was to have the fast side and the slow side, because that really adds to the album. I mean, it's that's a it's almost like a concept album in that way. It really adds to it. Um. And also it's a buzz for me because I get to play on one song. I

get to play on Heaven as well. Um. It was, you know, a moment of waiting for the rest of the band to come and there's me, Mick, Um and Charlie and no one else, and so I just walked out and start playing the electric piano with Mick while he's you know, putting down Heaven. How did you know how to play the piano to take lessons as a kid, I taught myself. Yeah, what age twelve? And you did

you ever play in bands? No? I never played in bands. No, but I you know, I've played on some records, not many, and I've written quite a few songs as well. Um so yeah, okay, so start me Up. That was sitting down the floor from the Some Girls album. Yeah, because that that song had been around in black and Blue time as a reggae song. I mean, Keith, that was Keith's song. That it was, it was, you know, I found out in Uncovering Everything that it started life as

a reggae song. But the day that we recorded it in Paris as the version that we all know and love today, quite a remarkable thing happened because it wasn't very often. In fact, I can't think of another occasion where you would recalled a song with the Stones and that was the master. So because you know, it was a big, big lead up to getting a final master. As I discussed earlier about different arrangements, different dempo's, different styles. So this day we actually nail miss You, that's the

day we'll recalled miss You. And then Keith launched him to start me Up, but with a completely different rhythm, not reggae at all, and it's the rhythm that we're here today and that song, the version the Master of Startup was recorded the same day as Miss You. Um. It was never known that to happen before. Um and so um. They did come in and listen to it, and Keith said to me, he said, he said, no, I don't like it. It reminds me of sorry I've heard on the radio he raised it. Of course I

didn't raise it. I wouldn't raised anything. Um and um. Um. There's been a few times when I've been to a live concert and they will start with that song and Keith plays the wrong card, and I'm sure he doesn't because he knows I'm in the audience. I think he always wanted the reggae song to be the one. But whatever, Um, it's a fantastic song to start an album with. Okay, needle to say seventy eight some girls huge tour. There

are tours, but undercover is a disappointment. But all of a sudden everything's rolled up for Wheels, which I think is quite good. Tell me about the recording of Steel Wheels, Well, Um, I've been invited back to to recording produced the band the Game because I think previously that Steve Steve Dinnyway did dirty work, um, which um, I purposefully stayed away from because after Undercover, the relationships on that album refraying. I mean my actually one of my greatest achievements is

the mix of Undercover. I loved the mix of Undercover of the night. If you heard the actual multi track is nothing like what year it was. I had this whole vision in my head of how to mix that song UM and create it. And when I did it, Micke and Keith heard it separately because they wouldn't come in the room at the same time. UM and UM, and they both said to me on the separate occasion and said, great, mixed the rest of the album like that, And it was like, well, no, you can't. That's you

can't do that with the rest of the songs. Although too much blood was a little bit right. So anyway, so UM not wanted to get involved in dirty work. UM UM. Steel Wheels came along and UM we had a discussion that instead of going in the studio and writing everything in the studio, that Micke and Keith should get together, and actually right before we went in the studio,

so that happened. They went to Barbados to Eddie Grant's studio and hung out there for I think a month um um you know, writing the bones of the songs that we're going to be on steel Wheels, um and um. I was actually working in Monsterrat at the time with Anderson Wait for Buford Now um. So it was great because I would go over to see them in Barbados to see how they were doing at the weekend, and then come back and work with Anderson Wait for Boofing

and Out. And after a couple of visits, I figured out that they needed some new blood in there. Um. And there was a young keyboard player who was working on the Anderson Wait for Booth and Now album called Matt Clifford. Matt was like John Anderson's programmer um and helped John, you know, make all the demos. So I took Matt over with me and introduced him to Mick and Keith. Uh. Mick instantly got on with Matt, loved him to bits. Keith wasn't a short um and um.

So Matt would go over at weekends, um, you know, to to help them with piano barts or just you know, to get a bit more of a vibe going on. And so I remember the first weekend that Matt went over, I called him up, quite nervous, you know, saying how's it going, what's been happening, what's been happening? He said, he said what he said, I've been here twenty four hours and he said, we've met Prince so and so, Lady so and so. We haven't been to the studio yet.

I've been socializing with Mick. So, Um, they were after a good start. Um, and Matt's been a true friend to make ever since. Actually, I mean he's really stayed the course with them. But yeah, so it's nice to, you know, put people together. I enjoy doing that a lot. I mean I do put a lot of people together. I enjoy it. So so the album, okay, so the album. Yeah. So it was quite interesting going to Monteret because, um, although I love the studio, I love the island. I

loved everything. I was a bit nervous about the Stones going there, knowing that they thrive on the city life, you know, their social life, Um is part always part of making a record in a way, So to be on an island for a month or six weeks or whatever, and then it was I wasn't sure I was going

to pan out. It was a total opposite. It was amazing. Um. First of all, Bill, I think I just married Mandy young Mandy, so he was only too happy to be away from the paparazzi because they never got on the island, so that was a plus for him. Keith was with Patty um. Um. So the family everyone had their own little villa and the families rule with them. Um. And it was Keith who said, right, we're not working weekends. Um,

We're just working Monday through Friday weekends off barbecue and swimming. Um. And that's what happened. And there was a terrific work ethic as well. We started like midday work until about seven o'clock, stopped for dinner and then go back in, but only go back in for a few hours, you know, not too two or three in the morning. Um. And we got so much work done. It was absolutely a dream. UM. And I already had a I've always been working on

every Stones album. I've always in my mind, in my head, I have kind of a vision of the sound, the sonic sound that I want for the band. There some girls album. Um, the Desk helped me with that No End. I mean it gave it that bite, that punk, that that kind of aggressive and electric kind of almost firework sound about it. Um. Undercover an emotional rescue. Emotional rescue led on from that, UM, but a bit more toned down because the songs were a bit more toned down.

Still some great sounding songs, and Undercover was just a big challenge and I had to pull something out of the bag when undercover with the night. So when it got to come in when I got the invitation to Steel Wheels, I already had it in my mind that I wanted Steel Wheels to sound very cinematic, not like a rough and dirty Stones album, but very polished, for want of a better word, but a very you know, a very wide sounding record. UM. And the songs that

they wrote for that album gave me that opportunity. UM. You know, there's a lot of backing vocals and a lot of horns, you know, as becausion. It's it's for them. It's a big production. But it doesn't sound like a ton of people. But it sounds it sounds expensive in one way. It's got a nice kind of sheen about it all. UM. And the reason I did that, it's because I was looking ahead to the next album, and the next album I wanted to do. I wanted to

make it sound like Exile on Main Street. I was already planning ahead, but I never got the opportunity to do the next album because they changed labels, they changed producers. Um, and that was that. But that was my kind of focus on steel Will's. You know, the amazing thing is they're playing Slipping Away pretty much every night on this tour. Christie, I mean Christie was a big Christie. We used to sit at Key's house and I mean Keith would play that song over and over and over again and he

never finished it. And I remember Christie sitting with him one night and and really kind of you know, I know, just like pushing him, saying, Keith, you've got to finish that. You've got to finish that. And then he came up with the bridge on the song and it got finished. So that's a yeah, that's a beautiful song, really beautiful song. And his vocals love you on that song too, absolutely. So how does it really end with you? In the start? Um?

It ends um in a good place because so we're still really good friends with them all um, more so with Ronnie. I mean Ronnie went on to work with some solo stuff from Ronnie Um, which is great. Um. Ronnie has been a great supporter of the Olympic Cinema and studio. But he did some great artwork for me there, Charlie. I missed so much Charlie. I mean, yeah, Charlie. I just have so many wonderful memories of Charlie Um making the albums. And there's a good friend as a lovely man. Um. Bill,

We're always in touch. Still love Bill and Keith. I don't see enough of because you know it's in the States nearly all the time. So um, it's very fleeting when I see Keith. But still great Mick. I haven't seen for ages um so um. But yeah, it's all very Yeah, it's all good. There's no well, I mean you do Steel Wheels, which is a real comeback tours, unbelievably successful. They just don't call you for the next record. Is that how it goes down? Yeah? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, Yeah.

I think I think Mike had already, you know, because because the businessman of the band, so he decided that, you know, change of label, because I think they went with Virgin then um um um Don you know connected with Virgin. Don's wife was connected with Virgins, so you know, kept it all in the Virgin house as it were. Um and yeah, I went to see them when Don was in l A working with them, which was which was interesting different, but they were enjoying himself, so you know,

what the hell? Okay? You know you mentioned that. I got to ask what what was don style different from yours? Um? What was done style different from my? Um? What? Don was definitely in awe of working with the band. You know, he was amazed that he was there working and producing the Holding Stones. I was never amazed I was working with him. I was just amazed when we finished an album that was great. Okay, you mentioned McK Ralph's a couple of times you work with bad Company. Tell me

about that. Yeah, wow, Um that was on the Burning Sky record which we recorded that set out Errville in France. Um. You know, the BGS did a documentary recently and they said the Shot tour was a dump? What was it really like? Yeah? It wasn't that impressed if I got to say, yeah, it was. Yeah. It was nothing like Long Review Farm. It was nothing like Umu Ridge Farm. It was nothing like um um oh, what's the one in rock Field? It was nothing like rock Field equipment.

It was pretty basic. Yeah, it wasn't yeah, Um, it wasn't that technically, it wasn't that together at all. I agree, Um and um that album, Um, that was. It was quite a difficult album actually, Um. I think Paul at the time wasn't very happy. Um. I seem to remember a lot of yeah, a lot of uncomfortable moments. Um. Mick was always a gentleman and always trying to, you know, keep things calmed down. Um and um I remember fondly

with Mick. We actually on a Saturday night we'd have a disco for the local is just um, just to get them involved. Um. Um but um, I mean I went on to work with Paul again with the Law with Kenny Jones. Um, that was really fun because Paul, Paul reminds me a lot of Mick in terms of his professionalism in performing a vocal. I mean, Paul is one of the most gifted singers. Um that well, I'm very fortunate to work with a lot of gifted singers.

So um, but Paul has that just incredible voice and it comes from a very special place his voice and he's singing so and he's still got it he's still got it completely. Yeah, so it was always you know, to record him was just a dream as well. It was a bit like recalling Sinatra. Um, he's got that tone and that that delivery. And you know, I was very good friends with Simon. I haven't seen sim of ages, but um. It was nice because a lot of the bands that I worked, but you did become really well.

Obviously you become very close to them for a while. So for maybe four or five months, that's all you see as those people. Um, and then then you you go off and do other things. Sometimes you work together again with him. I mean, it's quite interested in my career that I've worked with Peter Fampton and the Stones as many times. I think I've done seven albums with both of them, which is quite strange. I've never never

thought of that until someone mentioned it to me. Um. Um. And then my relationship with Merillium, which was really good too. That was a great relationship and kidding jokes still so um. But Paul yeah, I mean a wonderful voice. And I knew of Paul Free because of Andy Johns. Was Andy Johns would recorded the Free albums and that's when I met This is interesting. That's so when Backstreet Crawler came along podcast yeah know, but the replacement football Cosso was

was Stuffy Walden and interest emailing was Snuffy yesterday. No wait, okay, because Stuffy and I have really dear friends because I produced Snuffy's first band called Stray Dog. They were signed to Manticore Records, to E L P S label, and Snuffy at the time was a hell raising text and you know, blues guitar player with a powerhouse trio in London.

Um and made the album. I think they made another album, but then the band imploded and and I was sure that Snuffy wouldn't live to see the other side of twenty five years old. And then and then many years later, I was I was living in Manhattan and I'm watching the TV one night and thirty something comes on and I'm going like, wow, I love the music on this is really nice. So wait for the end credits and then it says music by um was it W G W G Walden? And I said to Christie, I said, ship,

that can't be the same Snuff. He can't still be around anyway. It was him, and I tracked him down and um we we saw a lot of each other. About four years ago he was in London a lot. In fact, I invited him to perform at Olympic because I was doing before COVID, I was doing live music

Olympic once a month. Um to like a small it's just a small forty five seater room, and I put on these wonderful evenings with with really really different artists, I mean from all different areas of music, mainly unsigned artists or new emerging artists or you know, kind of legendary artists. And Staffie is one of those. So um. I had Charlie Door on another night as well, and David Noffler. But but Snuffy and I really connected in a big, big way. And Snuffy said the most wonderful

thing said Chris. He said, I want you to produce my next album. I said to me, your next album, he said, I'm I'm really winding down from the TV music is said, I want to make an album again. So um, we're you know, hopefully we're going to be doing something in the new year. That begs a question you talked to earlier about Frank Sinatra movie soundtrack. Did you come to love the sound of the music you were making or are you still at home playing the

soundtracks and coruners of your No. I've come to love the sound of the music that I'm making, um and I'm incredibly proud of it. And I think one thing that I've always um, I've never been an engineer or a producer who puts a stamp of my sound on a record. I like to think, you know, I bring the best of any artists out of them. Um. But what I'm doing more now actually is um I love doing arrangements, like horn arrangements or string arrangements. I'm going back to that part of my sonic ear um um.

And also I'm doing a lot more um um orchestral semi classical acoustic work. Um not jazz yet, I haven't fallen into that area, but um more acoustic work. UM. So what I'm saying is not kind of you know, rock and roll anymore. Um More. I still love blues, but it's like how many blues records can you make in here? Um? So I'm searching for something new. I'm

always searching for something new. So I've been working with a young artist called James Passing recently, who who I've done one song with him and the reviews have been like James Taylor meets Bert back IRAQ, which is like, okay, I'll settle for that one. I like that. But the the guy's got a great voice and he you know, he's got the James Taylor style. But the way I raised the track was you know, quite orchestral as it were.

So UM, I'm I'm leaning more towards that now. But I'm doing that mainly because I've been really since I've been working with Olympic Studios. UM. I met the new owners about twelve years ago by an accident. UM where is my wife? Actually she wanted our thirtieth anniversary there, so she tracked down the new owners, who nobody knew who they were. UM and UM. They asked me to to join in, and they wanted to keep the great

Olympic sound in the cinema. So I was like consultant and designed the sound for the cinemas there, in choosing speaker systems that no other cinema has, and we were the first cinema to have Dolby atmos, so a very you know. UM. At that point in my life and career, I was totally absorbed with AMOS, became really good friends with um the Oscar winning Paul Massey, U film mixer who did Bohemian Rhapsody. Paul also, i mean does all of Ridley Scott's films he's doing you know, he did

Marsha and he's doing just finished Gucci. Now we're great friends. Um. He spends half his life here, all those in the States, and but we see a lot of each other. Um. And at one time we were going to build a Dolby Atmos mixing film score set in Olympic and so Paul and I Paul educated me a lot about the mixing technique, the consoles. We went to Paris to look at some new build atmos cinema UM sound stages there. Um, that didn't happen because we turned it around and we're

building the studio there. But um, it introduced me to atmos at the very kind of you know, at the start of it. Um. And if a film it's like an album. If a film is mixed well in Dolby Atmos, it sounds amazing, you know. If it's mixed poorly, it can sound like gimmicky. Um it can. Yeah, it's just like a record in my mind. So Gravity was the first film that we showed at Olympic in atmosph course

the atmosphe and that is absolutely incredible. So for the last ten years I've been living with ATMOS, well eight years living with ATMOS, and then the whole thing with Atmos music comes along, um and I find myself involved with the speaker company PMC, who um Um, I've become very good friends with he. Whereas who's like the consultant for PMC and getting their stuff out of there. He used to work with Steve Lipson, um, you know, who's also an old friends. So it's always, you know, this

close network of friends and people you know. Um. And in listening to ATMOS music mixes, I discovered you know, we were talking about the analog digital situation earlier. Well, the terrible thing that's happening, I think, um, is that record companies are now pushing stems out to mixes to mix everything in ATMOS because Apple the demanding Atmos um um,

So stems are going out to mixes. The stems are usually got all the compression, all the EQ and everything that originated from what they mix the stereo track as sent to them to mixing ATMOS. Now ATMOS the dynamic range of ATMOS is huge. That's why it sounds like it does in a cinema because there is no compression.

So when you're given compressed files to mixing atmos, it already makes your mix sounds like eight times smaller than anything else which doesn't have compression, because you're limiting the headroom in it. UM. And I'm really frustrated with this because RELD companies don't understand that they're pumping out all these stems to people. Mixes are coming back. They're in atmos, but they sound that ship. Um. You know they have no dynamic range. Um. There's a whole issue with me

with reverb in atmos mixes. Um engineers are putting reverb upon reverb on vocals and that in atmos you have to be in a really good room to know what it's going to fold down to. And that's the other issue is that people are mixing in the atmos and then when it's actually folded down into spatial sound, into into by normals sounding the headphones, it can sound like crap. And the other issue is is that the if you mix the stereo file stereo mixed file that's been compressed

for stereo like they all are. Um, if you mix that with an al with a song that's been mixed in ATMOS on your album, the ATMOS song will sound eight eight times quieter than the stereo co best file because you can't compress metadata, which is what ATMOS music is. UM. So there's I mean, I think atmos is an incredible thing. It's great in cinemas, Um, it's great. UM. I believe it's going to be incredibly successful in cars because then

you've got a captive audience. You can put eight speakers in the car, you put them over your head, um, and it will sound great in a car. Um. But for the whole thing with you know which Apple are pushing now with the the spatial music in headphones, it's like it's like what you were saying earlier about when you hear a remix of the Beatles and doesn't even sound like the Beatles, and it's like the same thing that happening in spatial It's like, what's the point of

doing it for headphones? So, I mean, you know who wants I don't know. If you're in a room in an environment where you're totally you know, you're totally covered with sound. That's one thing when you've got a pair of headphones in, you know, and things coming out the back of your neck, the back of your head, It's like, that's that's not a very good experience. I don't think so. I'm really pushing to get ATMOS music played in sin miles because cinemas have atmos or an auditoriums that also

have ATMOS. There's there's a whole you know, there's a whole new way to get ATMOS music to people, apart from earbats. Okay, a couple of things. The remixes are beyond defensive. There are songs where the vocal is so far down it's just really crazy forgetting the fact that we've had so many failed formats quad you know, s A, C, D, etcetera. If we start a new with new records, is there a future in mixing those for headphones? And is the

learning curve too steep for engineers? What do you think? Now? Don't think the only curve is too steep, But it goes back to think of that. Okay, if you're recording from scratch and I'm doing this, actually I'm I'm recording music for atmos. But my my game plan is that. Um, I want to be called all real instruments. I don't and the recording these synthpads um and he at eates, it's all real instruments. So it's it's in that term. It's classical. Now this sound, um, and I've done this

already that just putting that into a Dolby atmosphere is amazing. Um. You know, acoustic guitar, marimba, violin's, clarinet, piano. Because sonically it works. I mean it's like listening to a Frank Sinatra album or the George Shearing album. It really works well. Um. When um, when it changes for me is when it becomes all programmed music, which okay, UM, I'm not a big fan of program music, so it's not fair for

me to diss that music. But um, if it's written for Dolby and conceived before it's on a stereophile, then it's great. It can down terrific um. So I think there will be music. There is music being written for atmos, for Dolby atmos um um. But my fear, of my worry is that it could it could go down the toilet because the record companies are jumping on the bandmag and of the gimmick of it, um And most of it is a gimmick. In my mind. The whole headphone

thing is a gimmick. Um. If you if you experience it in an auditory in a I mean, you know, no one can hear Dolby Atmos like we can in a recording studio. You know, it's like, but you can hear in the cinema. You can hear it in an environment where you know that speaker capability is in there.

So that kind of makes sense to me. Um And one of the best Atmos mixes I've heard is Rocketman Elton John, I mean, and that was mixed by um or Andy I can't going to be his name now, but it was mixed by one of the original engineers. It wasn't farmed out to someone. It sounds incredible. I'm hearing stuff that I've never heard before. The placement of it is beautiful. Um And then I hear other stuff, which is just I heard Marvin Gaye, what's going on exactly?

That's the worst. I mean, that really turned me off. Well, Well, I mean, you know, I've got the stems for that at home. I could do a better mixed up for sure. So I'm actually digging of you know, getting an ATMOS system and starting off on headphones because you can start off mixing your headphones. You don't need the studio. And the great thing about Dolby is they're helping engineers and producers.

So you know, I could mix something at home in atmost all my headphones and take it to Dolby play in there in there at my studio and go, oh, actually, you know that vocals too high in relationship to the speakers over your head and stuff like that. And once you get that together that you can set a template up at home. So you get a template going and it's easier to you know, to mix at home without the expense of all the speakers. Um So. But then the other issue is folding it down into by noural.

That's that's a problem that's hasn't really been sorted out. I've I've heard mixes where, um, I know the mix really well and say, for instance, like a guitar, it's coming out over your head, over the top speakers, and when it gets folded down from atmost into seven point one, um, the guitar, sorry, the guitars on the left side, the guitar suddenly coming out over your head, so the fold down doesn't happen. The software seems to estimate where it

should be. Um, So there's got to be some engineering where you know, it knows exactly where it should be if you're doing it hard left or hard right, rather than simulating where it should be. But I think the format could be really really interesting. But it is really interesting. I've heard a lot of stuff, but it's still in its early days, of of of of being treated with respect. Um. Yeah,

it's quite amazing, um. Bruce Bruce, Bruce Bochnick has actually the storm um for at most it's as incredible, I mean amazing. And it's so simple. I mean that compeable in night tracks, ain't that? Um, Well, there's a long history. He made it in five point one. He's been through so many iterations. I think, you know, not to put him down. But it's not like he came from stereo

and went there. They've done a lot of versions in between. Okay, but you know what I'm saying about having the respect for the music, and they understand exactly that's so important, you know, he could I just have to ask you about one more band. I remember going to k Rock Acoustic Christmas in two and there's ten bands. The headliner is Duran. Duran. Half an hour, all of a sudden they come out and play this song called Ordinary World. I got it immediately. This was before the band the

album was released. There are two tracks on that album like that that and come Undone. How did you get involved? How did you make those records? They haven't done anything quite at that level since so and they were seen as you know eighty six. The fact that all of a sudden they had this incredible material which was very successful, was astounding. Well, I Um, I was always a fan of Dround Around. I loved A Round Around ever since

they appeared on the scene. As it were, because of my friendship with Peter Rudge, who was to a manager for the Stones for a long time. UM. Peter introduced me to the band because he was managing the band at that time and asked me if I'd like to have produced them. I said, well, I'd love to produced Rounder and I love them, so I got together with him. But it wasn't the Dround Around. It was um So

Um Rodgers, the drummer had left the band. Um and the guitar player had left the band, so when I met them, it was Sterling who was the drummer in the band, and Warren Um the guitar player who played with Missing was it Missing Person? Yeah? I think he played with Zappa as well. Warren was a tour of the False I mean, he was such a great guitar player and a good songwriter, and sonically his sounds were like, you know, so different to what I've ever heard before.

So it was a strange album for me experienced wise, because there were two brand new members in the band. So it would have been it would have been good if they had come along maybe like eight months later, um, because you know, then they really were integrated into the band. So UM, I did the album before the one you're talking about, Ordinary World. I did the album before that, so I was like the Um. I was like the opening act for the next album. But we did record

some amazing songs in the album that I did. There's one sort called Antarctica, another one called Serious, and those two songs were much more. They weren't kind of pop rock songs. They were you know, almost ballads, you know, they were. They were beautiful, laid back around songs, and the course the record company didn't want that. They wanted all the you know, up tempo stuff, which was a shame because that wasn't that wasn't the good stuff on

the album. That was the weaker material of anything. UM. But in working with them, durround Um, Nick and Simon and John we became again. We're still great friends to this day, I mean really good friends. And considering it was an album that was one of their poorest performing UM, it's you know, it's always good to see them UM. And I'm just so happy that you know, they're still doing it UM. And you know, they signed up with BMG now they got you know, new label, UM and

they're doing things and and Nick is incredible. Nick's always looking for, you know, something new sonically and musically and in collaborations as well. He's a very smart man. Give me you were a picture of what's going on in the music business today. There's two pictures I'm seeing. There's one is I'm very futunate that I'm still working and involved with a lot of young talent, young musicians, some incredible musicians as well. Really really um just playing instruments

all day long, writing all day long. UM. COVID has been a nightmare for them, but it's been a nightmare for all musicians, but the good ones, you know, that's what they know and love. So I'm still surrounded by that, and people are still sending the emails to work with them and help them on stuff. So that's you know,

that's fantastic. And I love to share, you know, my fifty four years of knowledge and making them, recording great albums with them and to to help them get to you know, what they want to achieve and what they want to hear um UM. So that's one great picture and you know, and they can get it out there,

they can easily release it. Then then it's up to them to you know, do the social network thing um, you know, which is that's another job in its in its own, but you know, so it is possible for an unknown artist if they really die hards, if they're going to perform live as well, they can get it

out there. So that's good. And then I also see UM, I see labels like BMG who are supporting you know, the vintage, the older acts um and helping them preserve their heritage, preserve their catalog UM and you know, keeping them going into the future as well without you know, crazy deals where they're you know, forever paying back the money. UM. So I'm kind of encouraged by the business at the moment.

Um Um. I'm not going to get into the streaming thing because that's another area that's um um in a sense I don't know enough about. But I know it's you know, it's not given the artists back their jews, you know, which they're really owned at all. It's it's a fragment of um of what they should be getting. And that's the deal done with the record companies and the streaming companies. You know. I understand the business of it,

but I don't respect it at all. Okay, now, as it's transition from big studio to small studio, a lot of people of an older vintage are complaining there's not enough money to do it right. At best, you can you know, cut the basics in a big studio. Do you think the ship has already sailed and you can work with the new technology and make is big or you lamenting just not enough money to make the record? Um. I think there is the money to make the record, um.

But the money should be there only if the musician, the band, the artist is ready to go into a studio. You know, I've made records where I've done a whole album in three days. So um, if anyone's that good, they can easily raise the money to go in with a band or whatever to make an album in three days of high quality if they're of the high quality as well. So I um, there's yeah, okay, there's there's no money coming from the majors for for new artists

in that respect. Um. It's more it's turned out that the A and R, that the publishers are becoming the A and R people, and they're the ones who are giving money to the artists, the unknown artists because they're you know, they're signing their their publishing and bedding on that. So I think that's where the money is coming in from.

But there's also money coming in from fans. Um. You know, quite a few records have been made have made, have been funded by the fans by well pledges no longer around, but you know, um of that type of funding. Um. And I think that's really good too because the then the fan base is involved in the making of the record and Meridian we're really one of the first man's to start that, and they've done so much from it.

I mean, if anyone wants to look at a template a how to do it, we're really in a shining an example. I mean the fact that you know a band that was dropped that was you know, the change of seeing a change of everything all of a sudden. They're playing at the Albert hall Um, you know, and they're they're making great records still and setting out. But

you've got to go on the road as well. That's that's the other I think a lot of music now, a lot of music is connected, um with It's always been connected with fashion, but even more so fashion orientated music made in bedrooms. I'm sick of hearing that old story. I mean, I've been making records where someone sent me the vocal on the guitar recording an iPhone and it sounds great. I've actually done backing vocals on the night

phone and put them into a track. So it's more about what you get down on tape as its well what you get down rather than where you do it. Although I do still believe and I know that if you're a group of musicians or you want to create something so special with a group of musicians, even if you're a solo artist, you have to do it in

a recording studio, in a in a real professional recording studio. Um, so you capture that moment um, Yeah, in that way, and something special happens when you when a group of musicians getting the room and played together, as opposed to I'm doing the drums at home, I'm doing the guitar in someone else's room. I'm doing you know, putting it all together from different rooms all over the world or different parts of whatever country you're in. Um, that's that's painful.

Christs has been hotterly fantastic. I got so many more questions. We gotta leave shore for now. Maybe we'll go another deeper another time. You know, I'd love to b I was just blown away, you know, when you hit the mic running. You were just unbelievably great. The stories you were telling, amplifying all the issues. I can't thank you enough for doing Bob. It's really been it's really been a pleasure to told you because I've yeah, I've known you for a long time, so it's great to see

you and to talk to you. And yeah, i'd love to come back and do a part two and talk about lots of other stuff. It's okay, this has been great until next time. This is Bob left stuff.