Bryan Fogel

I get hooked. This is at the end of the year, long before the Oscar run up, and if you haven't seen the movie, the movie is really phenomenal. But my first question is you won the Oscar four months ago. Are you still on a high? March Aapel May. Yeah, got, that's as great. What was it mall in March April May? Yeah, four months? Um, yeah, I think I think I'm still

on a high. Overall. Um, it's a it's a surreal experience to to go through that, and especially the lead up to the Oscars and um, it's exciting and also an overwhelming sense of pressure. Um. And so I think it took me probably a couple of months just to decompress from that and but yeah, it was a spectacular experience. It was like being on tour of the rock band.

I've mentioned a friend of mine used to work with you to management and they would go on the road for two years and would take her a year to decompress. I I I can see that. I mean I was. The film came out in August of of last year, so almost almost a year ago, and the press started in July, and I was essentially on a an eight month NonStop press and promotional tour. UM. And so when it ended essentially after the Oscars, it was kind of like a all right, now what um? And that was?

That was really a sum ride. And where do you keep the oscar? Um? The Oscars? Just sitting in a hallway the first the first month, UM, I wouldn't let it leave my side. I would I would bring it to the kitchen, it would come on the bedside table. And then and then when I would leave the house, I was so paranoid, UM that I would like put it in like a shoe bag in the trunk of my car UM, or just carry it kind of like

inexplicably in a like a shoulder bag. UM. And now it seems to kind of have a semi permanent home, and I've put in a really great security system with all sorts of cameras. Really really, let's say hypothetically it did get stolen, can you get a replacement I have? I really have no idea because like they number them, so I have like Oscar number four thousand, I think one thirty six, so I guess that's four thousand, one

six Oscars in ninety years something like that. And UM, you know they they like didn't give Netflix one, so it would be Oscar only went to myself and my producing UH partner that the Academy recognized, Dan Coogan. So I don't really know what what protocol is. UM. I do feel like I already need to bring it back for a polishing, though it starts to age. So now that you've first thing, UH, Kobe Bryant was rejected for admission just recently to the Academy. Have you tried to

get in? UM? While I I haven't heard, I think they announced UM and UH, you know each of the UH it's all through the various branches that decide. So I was automatically eligible and considered because I won the Oscar. But apparently it's not it's not given. Um so, UM, I guess I'm gonna hear sometime the next couple of weeks or something. UM, I hope the branch let me in.

It's it's by branch. So the so the doc branch, these members and I and I've been told there's like thirty or forty on the committee basically decide who they allow him to the branch. And I think they allow him maybe five ten people a year. Um. Well, unlike Kobe, you have history in film, so your odds are pretty good, but you never really know. So let's go back. You're from Denver, grew up in Denver, my family is still there, went to school and Boulder. Uh. Let's go back. What

did your father do for a living? Um? Wow, this is great. Nobody has asked me this, uh in an interview. My dad uh retired from law about I guess probably four years ago. And he was a UH. He started as a as a us S or attorneys who was one of the uh youngest U S district attorneys ever. He got a district attorney right out of law school. Um. And this was in Denver. Yeah, and then he was a UH. He was a prosecutor Um, he went into private practice and most of the at least in the

first probably two thirds of his career, was mostly criminal law. UM. And then on the later part of his practice. My dad's seventy five, now, UM, he branched off into all sorts of stuff. UM. But uh, yeah, great, great guy. I got to see him for Father's Day. And why did he retire? UM? I think you know, it was a combination of I think he called it, you know, I think at about seventy And I think also the law practice changed a lot. He was never Um, he

never had a firm. He was in private practice his whole life. He always said, I I didn't want the stress of a firm, didn't want the stress of employees. I mean he I think he found it stressful enough having a paralegal and a secretary and finding good people. UM. And I think, you know, I think the the business changed a lot. UM. And also I think he just uh was was ready to kind of you know, he's involved in all sorts of other things, a lot of charity stuff. He just I think he has ah, he

has a lot of other interests. And your mother, did you work outside the home? Um? Growing up? No, I have an older sister who lives in Denver, married, and I have a younger brother who's an artist. You're the middle kid in New York and in the middle. Okay, so I'm a middle kid too. How much older your older sister and how much younger is your younger brother. My older sister is uh, almost three years older than me, and my younger brother is five years younger than me.

And I and I guess I was kind of the the bully among my family, but not not intentionally. I was like getting bullied in school, so I'd come home and be a terror. But you're using the term bully. How did you bully inside the house? I I don't. I'm not quite sure. I mean you would probably have to ask my brother. So he said you were the bully. Yeah, and there was I remember this was probably fifteen years ago. Uh so you're you're you're a guy connection. How old

are you today? Uh? Okay, so when you're like almost thirty, what happens? Um my? Um uh yeah, it's actually no, it was now. No, it was more like when I was like and uh and I remember I'm home visiting and my brother, um uh had he was very very

upset with me and hurt with me. And he had never never actually talked to me about this, um and he had had like these recollections from from childhood that that essentially that you know that I that I you know, was bullied him and um and I think he was right because I was having a hard time in school. I was always kind of the the little guy getting picked on. And so then I would come home from school after being picked on and and pick on my my younger brother. So do you think playing that role

in school affected your career path of your success? Absolutely? I think uh uh. I had a I had a really stable childhood. From a family perspective. My parents are still married. There was no drama in the home. There was there was none of that stuff that you hear, you know where you know people grow up and have parents that are alcohol or addicts or has divorce and all that stuff. So none of that was um was was present in my home. Um. But uh uh, for whatever reason, I think is as a kid, I grew

up always feeling like an outsider. I was always I was always kind of like the short kid. Uh And um and I think as as I became an adult, especially because cycling, which was a lifelong thing for me. Just UM, it's it's a massochistic sport, like you really have to really like to suffer, and the guys who can suffer the most basically do the best. On top of that and genetic ability, but a lot of it just comes down to how much you're willing to suffer.

And UM, and I basically done that my whole life, writing and I think UM in Icarus and other things in my life. UM, I don't know when to UM, I don't stop. I just I get something in my mind and I'll just okay. Well it worked out with Charus. Are there are other times when it didn't work out? UM? That's an interesting question. UM. Yeah, there was certainly other times when when it didn't work out. UM. Before Charus, I UM essentially right when I when I turned thirty.

UM I. Prior to that, UH, for several years, I was in stand up comedy. I was um UH, I was acting and writing and and UM I basically wrote UH and starred in UH this play called Utopia and opened it up. I wrote it with a with a friend of mine, Sam Wilson. And there's a whole story behind that. How how how that came together and we opened it up in l A. And it became a pretty substantial hit. So how many years ago was that this? Uh?

It started in two thousand three, and then we played about three shows in l A. I brought it to New York and then it played in New York for three and a half years. Uh, and it was. It was a big hit. We had productions of it running in other cities. UM and I did a book, created a traveling show, UM another show outside of that, UM and you know, and and and I added inadvertently basically trapped myself into this world. I was now essentially the Utopia guy, which I would like him too, being probably

like David Swimmer on Friends, Jason Alexander on Seinfeld. I mean, nobody, nobody saw me outside of essentially basically I was the Gutopia guy. And and and I was. I personally performed as the star of this product and probably six hundred shows. And it was an interesting kind of be careful what you wish for, because um, I was a struggling actor, writer, comedian. Suddenly I basically wrote a role for myself, created the show,

produced the show, and it was now a hit. Now I was trapped in the show and UM, and during this period of time, I realized that I really didn't want to act anymore, and what I wanted to do was was direct and produced because that that, to me, UM was more akin to my personality, which is being able to kind of oversee the bigger picture of it

and what I found. All of a sudden, as I started getting success with the play and I went on on auditions auditions for a short amount of time, I suddenly would kind of go in and being like, wait, I'm the I'm the starring creator of this of this really really you know, success full show, and now all of a sudden, I'm coming in and and auditioning for Dorito's commercial or auditioning for you know, a couple of lines on a TV show, and it and and and I and I didn't like it. So I decided that

I wasn't going to do that anymore. I didn't I had no interest in auditioning, and that I would and that I really wanted to direct because I was directing UM the show, you know, inadvertently as well by producing it, and I was, um, you know, in charge of all the casting, and so when cast members would leave the show and then other cities of the show. So UM, sitting on the other table watching actors audition made me never want to audition again. And so I decided that

I wanted to adapt the play into a movie. And Sam and I basically adapted it into a screenplay, and UM, I wanted to direct it. Held on to direct it, and it took me about five years to get UM what was a million and a half dollars to to make the film and and it was. It was one of the worst experiences of my life. I was supposed to have a twenty six day shoot that turned into a nineteen day shoot. A week into the production, UM,

so we had boarded the entire production. I had found all my locations, and the financier had decided that he was going to try to make this film Non Union in Los Angeles with a cast that included Jennifer love Hewitt and Rita Wilson and Tom Arnold and Peter Stormare and Jamie Lynn Siegler and all these other John Lovitt, there's all these guys in it, and UM and so a week into the production, of course, the the Union came knocking saying, Hey, what what are you guys doing.

And instead of ponying up what would have been a couple hundred thousand dollars more, they took a week out of my shooting schedule. So all of a sudden, I had another basically two weeks to do what was supposed to be done in three weeks. UM. And I was given eight days to do my director's cut. Uh. And under the d g A the Director's guild, Um, you're required. The director is required I think a minimum of six

or eight weeks. And the film was non d g A, which was the lesson that I learned not to make a non union film over again. And I was given eight days and um and then uh, they decided not to sell the film, and they decided that they would release it straight onto on demand. UM. So they put it into theaters on a Sunday at two o'clock in the morning, at two o'clock in the afternoon, uh, to pretend that it was in theaters now. And so of course there was no money ever spent to market the film.

There's no money to promote the film, and the film left me in director's jail. I had invested the last amount of money that I had into the film, and I came out of this experience essentially broke and beaten up, a really really depressed and and I went through a really really hard time and I didn't know, uh if I was going to be able to uh continue to find another place within the entertainment industry to continue to create.

And I started looking at other businesses, and I started getting back into cycling, and cycling for me was essentially my therapy. And and so I was riding my bike a ton, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life and how I was going to pay my bills. UM. I was even thinking about moving back to Colorado, and Lance confessed and multiple tours de France, and it was now basically the beginning of and Any confesses. And I'd been really kind of back

into shape on the bike. And you know, everybody in the sport and anybody Rise always a was wondering did he dope or not? And be you know, I think anybody who's ever been into endurance sports or real a real athlete wonders, Hey, what what would these drugs do for me? What would these pds do for me? And did you believe he was a doper before he confessed, I was on the fence, um because he was like my hero, like uh As, I think he was way

beyond cycling. I mean, he was arguably the biggest athlete on planet Earth and the most well known athlete on planet Earth, much more so than even Lebron James or because he was he was so international. Um So there was that part of me that always believed, no, he couldn't know, he wouldn't. But then as the years went by and you and you realize that everybody else you

know had confessed doping, a big caught for doping. The guy got second place, third place, and then you'd read all these like journals basically going whatever these numbers and his watts per kilo and all this stuff seems unfathomable. But um, I wasn't so shocked that he had doped. But what really caught me about it was the way that they got him, which was they got Lance kind

of like al Capone on tax evasion. They never caught him how the system was supposed to catch him, which is, you know, the guy uh had had managed to this day to pass every single but there was one where he was it was a positive and he explained it away. Yeah, that but that was back way way into in the early part of his career. If I remember, that was

like and they didn't kind of really have the true evidence. Um, but I mean the way that they get him is basically by launching a criminal investigation and all of his teammates now under essentially you know, a criminal testimony, admit to doping in exchange for essentially immunity, and rat Lands out, you know, in the process. And I'm going, wait, wait, wait, should we be mad at Lands or should we be like like looking at this system and going what sort

of fraud is this? And the only way that you can catch an athlete after five tests through launching a criminal investigation and getting all of the teammates who did the same thing as he did Rata Mountain is in exchange for his own uh you know, uh, in exchange for their own immunity. And and so I I started going, wait, there there is a bigger story here that people are not looking at. And that story to me was that the global anti doping system nothing to do with cycling

really just all of sport. Because if you're going the most tested athlete on planet Earth has been managed to has managed for ten fifteen years to get around the system. Well, what about every other athlete on planet Earth and all the sports that they're hardly been doing any testing on.

So so I got this essentially, this idea that I wanted to go on like a super size me journey proved that the anti doping system was a fraud, And inadvertently I was hoping to kind of redeem my hero lance and show that this guy was essentially a needle uh in the global haystack. Uh. And of course what transpired ended up being, you know, a million times crazier and bigger than anything I could have imagined as as I set out. Um, but but that was what what

set me on the journey. And and as I started on this journey, it took me about a year to raise the first bit of money to get going, which was how much ran should your father help you out? Why do you think he had helped me? He had put a little bit of money into the into the movie, and that didn't pay back, and and I didn't. My father is not a wealthy guy. You know, he's done fine, but he's retiring. Um, you know, my my parents are just being they're they're fine, they're not. Well, well, let's

just go back here a little bit. So you go to school, you're the young person of the outcast. What what age do you start riding bicycles. I started riding bikes when I was thirteen years old. Um And what kind of it happened is I had I had been playing soccer in baseball, and I wasn't really good. Um baseball, I was essentially the Jew on the baseball team. And growing up in Denver, uh, there was a lot of anti Semitism, and um I was essentially the Jew um and Uh I was the Jew on the soccer team.

And M and cycling for me is a really it's a very individual sport. There's a lot of you know, there's a lot of team elements and ultimately the guys. You know, once you get on a team, it is a lot of teamwork. But the sport in and of itself is not dependent on this kind of you know, like a baseball team or soccer team. And and it was right about the time that M. Greg Laman won the first tour in and Um I had a friend of mine in middle school and his brother essentially got

into cycling. I was in seventh grade and he got a bike, and I was like, oh, this looks kind of cool, and so, um, I wanted to buy a bike. And I detailed cars all summer. I started up a little car detailing business where people would bring their car over to my parents house in the morning from around the neighborhood. Boar and waxed the car charge him. I don't remember thirty five bucks. And I saved up six hundred dollars to buy my first bike, which was what

it was, a track. It was a purple truck with yellow tape on the handlebars. How many I think at the time, it's probably twelve as twelve speed and and I got on this bike, and I was I was on my way. I mean I I grew up with asthma my whole life, and and the doctor always said, oh, you know, you shouldn't ride a bike. You can't ride a bike. Um, but I got on that bike and and um, it was it was just kind of like my freedom. And I and I started riding every day

after school. I would breaking away. Um yeah, it seemed breaking away. So you're now writing independently what you're saying, I'm gonna get myself in shape to enter competitions. Yeah, it was. I was ski racing in the winters and not well. But but you know, I started ski racing when I guess I was probably about twelve, and that was where in Colorado at Winter Park, which is um

a mountain about ninety minutes from Denver. And um. I started skiing when I was about three years old and decided I wanted to race, and that was also part of the cycling, which was all the guys who were skiing. It was cycling in the summer. It's like both of those sports. If you talked to any real skier, they ride their cyclists, and if you talked to any real cyclists,

their skiers generally. Um and uh. So I had started ski racing basically a year before that and decided that cycling would be a good way to stand shape and um and and it also has got a real kind of solo element to it. And yeah, so I started riding. Okay, So when you you obviously had a bike before that, but now you have a bike that you can actually, let's say, compete with. At what point did you enter after getting the bike the competitive system pretty much right away,

like within within within like the next year. So the first kind of summer I got into it that I got really into it. And there was these races in Colorado called the red Zinger Mini Classics, um like red

Zinger t Special Seasons, which are from Colorado exactly. And and they were also at the time sponsoring, um the Bigger Bike Race which I can't remember, within these the Course Classic Colorado, Yeah, and that Tour Colforado was in recent years, but it was it was a course Classic, and Michael Eisner was developing, was promoting all those races and I've got to know him over the last year.

Awesome guy. And UM, so the Course Classic was going on, and the red Zinger Mini Classic was kind of like you know what the kids were doing in and during the summer, basically I think it was every other week there was another red Zinger Mini class They were two day races like on Saturday Sunday, three stages, a time trial, a road race, and like a criterion or circuit race.

And I started doing those when I was I think I was thirteen when I did my first one, and I and then every year, how well did you do in that? So I was I was basically the guy who was um better than but never uh never one. So asthma was a huge thing for me. And what would happen is is I would start the race, I'd

have to have my asthma attack. I'd have an asthma attack, and then I would taken in Hailer and this set and the other, and then after the asthma attack, I would recover and then I'd spend the entire race catching back on. And then we was there like a preventive Wait, you can't use well, that was the thing at the time. What I was using was this nebulizer solution, which is like this machine. I mean you look like you know, uh, Frankenstein or something and puffing on this machine and there's

there's never you know, solution coming out of it. And so I would so I'd take this nebulizer solution like in the parking lot you had. I'd find someplace to like plug it in outside the race. I mean, I remember this, and that would dilate my lungs and hopefully I wouldn't have the asthma attack. But most of the time I would have the asthma attack and then I'd

spend the whole race catching back on. But if it was a mountain stage, it was a climbing stage, because I was always kind of like the you know, I've got a climber's build. Um eventually knock off every almost everybody and finish like fifth or six. But I never one. Um. But just so I know, if one isn't asthmatic, is that a band drug? Well, and that's a whole other thing which is which is interesting. So like this whole thing with Chris Froom. If the guys won, I think,

what has he won? Four Tour de Frances Now, uh, you know he's under this whole investigation for using uh Salm Salma beauty role, which is the drug which totally changed my life. So um, I guess probably about when I was twenty years ago or something, a drug by the name of advert came on the market which is Flew Coast, I mean, and sal Salma beautiful. And this drug essentially stops you from having asthma, prevents asthma just

flat out. So you just take I take a puff of this every morning, just one like it's like a discus. And in my mind right now I don't have asthma. I haven't had an asthma attack in twenty years. But if I stopped taking this drug in twenty four hours from now, I will be reminded that I have asthma. So it's crazy. I mean, this drug completely stops asthma, but if you take too much of it or whatever

what they're saying Froom did. Uh, it's it's a band substance. Um. But I had this drug been on the market when I was growing up and when I was racing, who knows. I mean, my life might have been very different. Okay, so you're racing an age race all through high school, race all through high school, and then, um, my first year in college, how did you decide to go to Boulder? Well, I went to Boulder. Um, I had gotten into Middlebury.

Goes you went to Middlebury. So I almost went to Middlebury. Uh, right, because I was looking at basically a place that I could basically ride my bike and ski and I went and like visited, and I was like, Wow, this is really cold and and and the mountains are nowhere as big and beautiful as Colorado. The cycling doesn't look anywhere

as good as Boulder. I was like, you know, I think I'll I think I'll stay home and I think My parents also were kind of going like, wow, Middlebury is gonna cost a lot of money, and you got Boulder in your backyard. And I loved Boulder, um, and it looked like you know, and I had been going up there cycling. I wanted to stay you know, close to skiing. I loved Vale and all the mountains, and so I decided to go to Boulder and and I

was easing. Uh, and I got sponsored by a team in Canada, and um, when I was nineteen at the time, eighteen, and I'm in this horrific bike crash and I lose uh seven wow yeah, and um and all of these are every single one of them are basically um, I had to have root canals. So I had to have eight eight root canals. Um. You know, they didn't lose. The mir shattered and the teeth died, and I basically spent like two years with like plastic teeth in my mouth.

Is they're doing root canals and it's wonders for your dating life. Yeah, it was just it was it was really bad. And what it and what it did was it made me like essentially not want to raise a bike anymore, because you have to be fearless. And so now I'm basically back on the bike. And and when you're racing, you know, you're you're within you know, an inch of the other guy's wheel, and I'm going weight. I don't want to basically lose all my teeth again.

So suddenly I'm I'm writing, you know, defensively instead of offensively. And and I and I kind of realized that this was not essentially the career that I wanted for myself. Um, it's just such a brutal sport and very few people ever make any a living in it. Unlike the you know, NBA, where there's whatever it is, eight players in the NBA and the guy who's making the least amount of money is still making like seven hundred thousand a million a

year or something like that. In cycling, basically nobody is making any money other than Lance Armstrong, you know, right, And uh, and I said, huh, maybe this is not the the career path for me. We take a quick break and come back with more of my conversation with Oscar winning filmmaker Brian Fogel recorded live that the two in studios in Venice, California. Most of the time I talked to musicians like Shirley Manson of Garbage or industry

executives like Motown President Ethiopia have to marry him. But sometimes we go off the beaten path with our guests like Tony Hawk and this week I'm speaking with Brian Fogel, the mastermind behind the documentary Icarus. Whether you come for the music, the tech business, or otherwise, be the first year next week's episode by subscribing to The Mob Left That's Podcast. I'm tune in Apple Podcast for your podcast player of choice. While you're there, be sure to rate

and review the podcast. Okay, let's get back to my conversation with Brian Foegl. Why don't you stop competing? Do you stopped riding your bike? Are you still continuing to ride your bike? No, I kept riding and um and I took a so I kept riding through through college, but it just really became like a hobby. And in the back of my mind, I was always going to race again, but but I didn't and um, and then I moved out to Los Angeles. Before you go, So,

you're in college, are you studying acting entertainment things? No, I was. I was studying sociology and psychology. And the reason why is UM basically like the entire football team was sociology majors. And I didn't view myself as like going into like a graduate program. I didn't see myself

as being a doctor or a lawyer. I had always kind of been entrepreneurial and UM, and I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I knew that I wasn't going to be a scientist or or something that required like a real graduate degree, so UM, so I studied those two things and UM. And after college I moved to Aspen. But before you moved to Aspen, now you're in college, are you still the runt or do you fit and in college? Now I'm starting to fit in. And then you moved to ask me to

be a ski bum Um Yeah. Essentially moved to Aspen UM after college with the idea that I would UM ski and UM ride my bike and UM and I had UH started up a little business with a friend of mine where we were essentially UM having computers manufactured UM and UH and selling them through through the classified ads at the time, where you know, like kind of like what Dell was doing, but you know, on a micro cause him level where we would advertise essentially, you know,

build a computer and you know we put ads and classified and so I could be anywhere to do that. And uh, and I had a company and I was like at the time, and I had like a company that I was contracting through in Los Angele, US and and so I was I was doing that, went to Aspen and had come out to l A, Los Angeles a few times and loved it. And just like the weather, I just um kind of fell in love with the city and and decided that I would So how long

were you ask him? A little bit less than a year. Okay, so you come to l A, you like the weather, you have the computer business. At what point do you say, hmm, I want to go into the entertainment business. So I guess I'm probably at the time. And um, this was actually nineteen Uh it was and and I'm I'm living in Beverly Holes area, uh and and I'm working out at this this gym called Crunch on Sunset in West Hollywood. And I meet this and I meet this girl. Uh.

We date for a short amount of time. And my whole life, I was always doing um voices accents like like when I was a kid, I would leave, um, like my parents had a phone, a phone recording device, you know, if an answering machine, which nobody uses anymore, and I guess I would. I would leave what would probably be considered like, you know, unacceptable accents on the machine, just pretending to be someone you know, like whatever, you know, like hi, you just reached the phogol if I am

late leaving message, you know that kind of stuff. But um, and so I was always doing voices and impressions, and this girl was like, you know, you know, have you ever thought about doing comedy? You should, you should do comedy. You're missing your calling. What what are you doing in Los Angeles selling computers? You should be a stand up comedian. And I go, huh, maybe I should, And I decided

to take a stand up comedy class. It was a class at the the Prov and the class was like a six weeks class or something like that, once a week, and at the end of a class, basically you hustle all your friends to come to the improv and your friends have to buy drinks and everything, but the show is free and they get to witness basically the stand up comedian class basically performing at like five o'clock on a on a on a Tuesday at the improv kind of thing. So I do this like six week class.

I get up there, uh you know, and do my whatever. It was five minutes, ten minutes, I don't remember. And I thought, Wow, I really like this. I want to be a comedian. And how did you go over um that evening? I went over really well because it was it was a warm room. There were there were a lot of friends that I had convinced to come to watch me. And I was ah, I was doing like like prop comedy where I just like it was really bad. It was really bad, and uh, it's like, go, hey,

I'm gonna go do comedy. And so I started doing like open mics at the at the comedy Store and the laugh Factory, and you know, in that world is kind of dark. You're basically like standing in line all day to like go on for like a three minute spot um, you know, whenever they do their open mic nights. Um. And I did that for probably about a year and a half two years, and I and it's like, I don't think this is for me because the life is too hard or success is too hard. Why do you

decide to say this isn't for you. You know, I was doing a lot of like improv classes too, and my personal experience was in the clubs. Um, there's just all these like comedians like fighting for a couple of minutes on stage, and it was kind of like a dark underbelly um behind like you know, you get on stage and all of a sudden, your whole job is to be funny. But like the the guys who were trying to get up, and it was just it was

it's a it's a really strange world. And anybody who's who's went through this, and I'm sure any any comedian this went through this would would would say this as well. Um and uh, I just found it just kind of like dark and depressing. And and here I was basically like standing on a sidewalk for for eight hours trying to get like a three minute spot, you know, to go up at the comedy store. And I'm like this

just this just isn't isn't great. And so I decided that I wanted to you know, get into acting and take acting classes and so were continuing to support yourself building computers. No, so I had um, I got I had gotten out of the computer business, and I'd like sold my clients to this, to the company that that was building the PCs, and uh and I had a little bit of money, like like tucked away, and so I decided that while I was essentially acting, that I

was going to be a day trader in stocks. And uh. So I was like, you know, twenty four years old, and we're gonna beat and the UH and and tech stocks. If you remember, at this time, we're going crazy like Cisco, Microsoft, Oracle. I mean you couldn't lose. I mean, you know, and and and all these stocks were going through the roof. But then there were all these like um tech companies.

I remember it was like I two I t w O and j D s U and broad Calm and all these and and they were just you know, going through the roof. And so I start going into stocks just you know, I'm taking acting classes, I'm doing comedy and improvlem. So I'm trying to find a way into the business. But I'm basically gonna, you know, make pay my bills through day trading. And this was working great

for about about a year. And uh and so I had uh and I had never taken a class in it or anything, but I mean, you really couldn't lose. I'm just And then I realized that there's option trading, which is which is essentially the kiss of death, which you know, basically you can just buy, uh own the stock for a fraction of a stock price, so you can buy like a thousand shares when you could have

only really afforded to buy, you know, fifty shares. But when you lose, you basically lose like you like you had a thousand shares. You get wiped out really quick, but you can make big gains. So I was trading options. I mean it was, it was going really really well.

And then this was and the whole tech market crashed and overnight the stocks went from like I don't know, two dollars a share to like two dollars to share, and I was in options and I got wiped out and it was it was and suddenly I was back to Okay, Now, how am I actually gonna gonna support myself as as a as an actor? Um? So so I start up this, uh this showcase company. Um. And the concept was I had been trying to break into acting and and and in in Los Angeles, and these

things are still going on. They have all these like cold reading workshops and acting workshops and and and there's scam operations. You go in, you pay fifty bucks and you read for like some like casting director's assistant or some manager's assistant or some agents assistant, and the laboratiz that like, you know whatever, some legitimate you know, agency manager. But it's not even it's like it's a it's a

total scam. And so um, so I'm doing these cold reading workshops and these agent workshops, trying to get an agent, trying to get seen, and I'm realizing that this is a scam. And I decided that I'm gonna put together essentially this this showcase that's not going to be a scam, that I'm going to bring in legitimate industry people and I'm going to have the work critiqued, because that was

essentially what I was missing from all these workshops. You do these workshops and you'd go, Okay, well what did you think of me? And are you actually gonna call me in for a meeting or do you want to represent me? And and times out of a hundred, you would just do this thing and leave with this big question mark in your mind, but you'd be fifty bucks, you know, poor. So I just scided I'm gonna put together this um this actor's showcase, and I rent a theater.

I started advertising in backstage West and lo and behold, there's a real need in the marketplace for this. So I start together these showcases where essentially, you know, uh, I put up like twelve five minute scenes and I would direct all the scenes. I I team be actors together. I'd give them material out of plays or something that that I had written, basically just to see how it would go over. Uh. And I would and I would team everybody up and they would go work on on

their scenes, come back and rehearse. And then I'd put together this showcase and I had four wall a theater. I'd bring in a light guy, a sound guy, you know, put basic furniture on the stage, and bring in all these agents and managers and casting directors. But they would actually critique the work. So so the actors myself included, would come out of this and go, hey, you like me, you didn't like me? Actually want to take a meeting

with me? You you want to you know whatever. And so I started doing this and about two years into it, UM and I was holding these showcases probably every other month. Uh, I was paying my bills, you know, it was it was just it was enough to get by. Plus plus I was actually getting on stage and working and getting my work critiqued. UM and I meet this guy who had come in to do the showcase with me, and we decided that we're going to write a ten minutes

scene for for the showcase. And we come up with this concept for the scene then, and the scene is basically going to be an a Jewish guy and a Christian guy and they're at a Jewish singles mixer, and we went, well, why are they each there? And we decided that essentially, the Christian guy was at the Jewish singles mixer because he wanted to meet and marry a Jewish girl so they never have to make another decision

in his life. And and the Jewish guy was at the was at the singles mixer because his mother had forced him to be there. But what he really wanted to do was, you know, run off with an Asian and this was the worst thing in the world. And that the Christian guy had been basically convinced the Jewish guy to teach him how to pretend to be a Jew so that he could basically marry a Jewish goal so he never had to make another decision. So we put up this this ten minute scene at the showcase

and it went crazy and people were laughing. And I had never heard a reaction to this, and anything that I had done, from stand up comedy to all the acting classes plays nothing, and and Sam and I go, hey, we're we maybe we're onto something. And so we performed the scene over the like the next four or five months and start thinking, hey, do do we turn this into like, try to write this as a TV pilot, We try to write this as a movie. And theater is what made sense to me because I said, oh, hey,

this is we could do this. We can put put on a play. And so we spend the next year writing essentially this ten minute scene into a full length play. And and when we're done writing this play, I had been introduced to Elliott Gould and um and I had been introduced to him through Frankie Blonde's producer Yeah, who passed away a few years ago. And Frank had had run Paramount and he had run MGM. He was kind of like a legend and and Frank read the play

loved it. He said, I think maybe Elliott would like this. He gives it to Elliott, and Elliott likes it, and I go and meet with Elliot Gould at like five o'clock in the morning at Nate Nows. And this was the craziest thing because Elliott, um, I wonder if if his day to this day probably still does this. I mean, like he would like to go to Nate now so like five in the morning because there was nobody there and he wouldn't get hassled, but he wanted to be

at Nate Now's I remember. We go to meet Elliott and it's literally like five in the morning, five thirty in the morning. And and the day before he had like called us and you know, call her. I d on the on the phone, it shows up Elliott Gold. I'm like, oh my god, like Gold to calling you know what? That's a the phone. He's like Hi. He's like Hi, this is Elia Gould And I'm like hey Elliott. He's like, you want to have breakfast with me? I'm like, yeah,

what time? He's like, how's five in the morning. Get they That was I'm like five in the morning. He goes, yeah, they opened it five for five thirty. I'm like, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, there's really a part of me that's gonna go, you know. And I remember I go, you know how It's like, how's like maybe seven in the morning. He's like, you know, I really like to go like five in the morning. I'm like, okay, fine, five in the morning. And when this is gonna be nuts.

So go and sit down with Elia Gould and m and he agrees that the whole basically kind of like host this reading workshop of this play like Elia could presents um. It turns out that he that he that what he had really connected to in the play um was basically the play has kind of had like all this um uh circumcision elements in it, and and Elliott was not in favor of circumcision and uh, and he just and he really thought that that was that was

great in the play. And so he hosts this this uh, this reading and we bring out like a couple hundred people over a couple of nights to try to back this play. We need like eighty dollars to do it, and a few hundred people show up and we're trying to get everybody whatever, donate a couple of hundred bucks, five hundred bucks, whatever, and not no one is willing

to essentially finance this play. And um, uh, so we decided to rack up my credit cards and my parents loaned me a little bit of money but not much. Is just really just going for it, and uh put together a whole production and open opened up the play in in Los Angeles and it became a hit theater at the Coast Playhouse in West Hollywood on sam Oka Boulevard.

It opened up in um, I think it was May third or something, two thousand thirteen, and the l A Times gave us like a rave and suddenly, you know, you could not get a ticket to this show for for six months. I mean they were just lined up. How many performances a week? We were doing five shows a week and the theater was ninety nine set. But what we had done is we had turned it into

like a hundred and twenties theater. We had stacked in all these chairs into there, totally against fire code, but you know, we we were selling the seats and uh and within about a month and a half, two months, I had recouped the play, and suddenly I was making a living essentially as an actor uh in in my own play that was producing and um and that went on for the next five years before the uh the movie. Did you have any money in the bank? Was this

lucrative in any way? UM, I'd done, I've done okay, Like when the show was in New York, I was doing pretty well, but New York is very expensive. UM. And then I had UM had like this traveling production of it were um. Originally it was Sam and I the guy that I wrote the show with, and then it was just me doing another thing. And that had sustained me for a while. That and speaking engagement. So I'd get all these um, basically speaking engagements. I'd get

called into this fundraiser, that fundraiser and Jewish fundraisers. I assume, yeah mostly, And how did you get those gigs through through an agency, through an agent? And what would they be worth? Back then they're pretty good, like okay, and then what would you rap be what? What? What would they get for their money? UM? You know they'd get me. I mean, what would you do? You had this note?

So I would outside go in and basically UM I had, you know, they usually wanted me to do like forty five minutes or an hour, and so I I'd go in and basically and UM I crafted like a power point multimedia kind of comedy UM where I'd include kind of bits of material UM from the play UM, but I would tell stories and and just you know, crazy stories about like my parents, UH took a trip years

ago to China and UH they went. It was through their synagogue and they and the trip was going to be a Kosher trip through China, even though even though um, even though my parents UH are not super religious, but

the synagogue was a Kosher trip to China. And my parents were telling the story about basically how the rabbi had like a torah on like a total long that he's totaling through the streets of China because anytime they would like encounter like on kosher food, I guess the Rabbi would like open up the Torah, read some sort of read some sort of prayer, and then and then any dish that you know, silverware, flatwear plates, anything that they encountered that was like on kosher, the Rabbi could

immediately like turn it into kosher, you know, by pulling my whipping out the torah, and uh so I I had photos like this was like, you know, part of the what I would do is speaking. I had photos of like my parents like basically this roaming pack of old Jews through China. And I mean the photos are ridiculous because what their entire trip was was basically searching for Chinese Jews. When my parents, wherever you go, you gotta go the synagogue, right so wherever, and that's my thing.

But my parents, wherever they go, they basically have to find the Jew anywhere anywhere in the world. They basically play, you know, find the Jew and and so so here they are in China, basically just roaming through China and and like one of the things they did they went to this this this this town I'm trying to remember the name of it, uh Nanking or something like this. It's basically a town in China where apparently Jews lived and Jews had settled this town and the town essentially prospered.

And then you know, and there's a Jewish cemetery in China. And this was worth and my parents estimation, like a twelve hour train trip to China in the middle of a winter to go find like a Jewish cemetery in China. But to me, this was just comedy. I mean, this was just pure insanity. And so, you know, so I would go into these, like, you know whatever speaking engagement that these fundraisers tell, These tell these funny stories, um, you know, my upbringing and growing up and uh, and

that was essentially sustaining a living for me. You're listening to my conversation with Oscar winning documentary and Brian Fogel, recorded live at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. I hope you're enjoying this episode of the Bob left Sex Podcast. If you want to see videos, photos, and sound bites from Brian and the rest of my guests is they joined me in the studio, visit at tune In on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Now more of my

conversation with Brian Fogel. I'm the Bob left Sets Podcast. How many of those gigs, uh speaking engagements do you think you did? M hmm? Probably over maybe four years, five years. I probably did maybe on ard of them. Okay, very good, you know, high number. So then it stopped because you no longer want to do it or it plays itself out. I can't played itself out, and I didn't want to do it. Um. It was really UM.

I was very focused on getting the film made. And so one can still see the film, right, Yeah, are you happy with the film? Mixed? Uh? Not? You know that I wasn't able to to do what I wanted to do creatively. UM. I had come into the production with like a hundred and fifteen hundred sixteen page shooting script and then I was forced to cut out of it a week into the shoot. So we literally shot like an eighty five page script. Um. And there is

nothing in the film that we didn't shoot. There's nothing on the cutting room floor, literally nothing. They're not even a single scene nothing um and UM. So you know it's I think for what it was, there's it's fun, there's good laughs, but it's not. Um, it's not the film that I wanted to make, not not by long. Okay, So that film goes to v O D when um, two thousand and I think it was October something like that, two thousand twelve. And so at what point do you

start riding your bike again? I was really starting to ride. I mean before it went to v O D. The film had already been finished, So it had been had been finished for I don't know ten months, eleven months, and they were trying to figure out what they were

going to do with it, um and um. So I was already going, um, this was not leading to other work, you know, it wasn't It wasn't leading to really any opportunity these despite the film having a pretty big cast in it, And so I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And and so that was you know, two thousand twelve, really all of two thousand really all of two thousand thirteen and two thousand thirteen is when I probably really started spending a lot

of time on the bike. Again basically you're lost mentally, you don't know where you're going, and you're obviously a fan of the scene. The bike scene does a light you have a lightbulb moment, Yeah, I mean the the I think it was a combination. I was I was looking at other businesses, but I didn't want to be in another business. I mean, my my my life since as you know, I'm twenty four years old, twenty three

years old, has been in entertainment and I don't. I didn't know anything else other than how to basically create and make things. And so I really, um, I didn't want to go into anything else. I wanted to to continue making film. I wanted to continue um in in in that world. Um and uh so you know I grasped onto this, this idea um of kind of a supersize me movie. Did it come to you just that quickly, like you're on your bike one day and all of

a sudden, you go, fuck, it's supersized me on a bike? Um? It was? It was. It was a process. I was. I was riding bikes a lot with a with a guy by the name of Tim Comerford. You might know who he is, Timmy c. He's the bass player for Rage Against the Machine. It was a bass player, an audio slave. Now he's in Profits of Rage. He's had

an amazing career. And uh, Timmy and I were out riding a ton and and we were always, you know, I was we were always talking about Lance and he knows Lance and and the whole thing that you know, Lance had confessed and just philosophically about it. And you know, through our conversations, I was, you know, trying to figure out what what I wanted to do, and I grasped onto this idea of basically showing that the anti doping

system is a fraud. And I remember one day we're out on the bike and I'm thinking like, hey, I'm gonna like go hire somebody like an athlete to go do this. And Timmy's like, dude, just dope yourself, Man, you got dope yourself. I'm like, yeah, you're right. He said, yeah, Man, just dope yourself. You do the drugs, you do it, you do it. I'm like, yeah, Timmy, you're right. You're right,

that's what I should do. And UH, and so you know, the idea essentially was was was born that I was gonna basically ride my bike, take a lot of drugs and prove that the system was a fraud. Now when was that epiphany? Now was UM probably middle of two

thousand thirteen. And then it took me another year to get the first UM three or fifty thousand to start shooting and UM and then that year I had developed essentially like a treatment and like a proof of concept, and UH went in and started essentially talking to producers about you know, like this is the idea and um, you know, and everybody kind of loved the idea. Essentially it supersized me in the world of sports, um with you know, not only for those people who don't know.

Supersize me is the famous movie where he eats Morgan Spurlock, who's now gotten caught up in the me too movement himself. He eats McDonald's for a month and he's assessed by a doctor and sees the biological effects exactly and essentially and supersize me. Basically it's McDonald's for a month, which you can imagine that is not healthy for you. But you know, he basically just turns into almost like a dying man on on camera. Is all that he's eating

is basically supersize me meals from McDonald's. And the takeaway is, you know, just the destroyer of how bad fast food is for you and uh and you know, in in my version of it, it was really going to be, um, A what do these drugs do? B Are they good for you? Are they bad for you? But the bigger takeaway was a do they make you? Know? Do they make you champion? Can you win if you were cheating?

Which was always kind of an idea in the back of my mind, which is all the years I was racing and all the years that I was writing Bike, I was always wondering had I done this, would have I been great? Could have I won? And on the and the bigger part of it, which I thought was going to be the more compelling narrative, was to show that the global anti doping system essentially was a fraud, didn't work and that lover hate Lance Armstrong, the guy was a needle in the overall haystack of of cheating

and corruption and sport. And that was what I hope to to show. And that and that concept UM was essentially what what got kind of this initial investment and from where I don't want to say name, but what kind of an individual was a company? It was a friend and um could that friend afford to lose? Three yes? And um and uh it was it was really what had happened is I had UM as. I had teamed up UM with another producer who I don't want to mention on the film and UH and he was going

to come in and produce and uh. And very early on before we actually picked up cameras um UH, we got into creative differences he was looking at Icarus in the film, and I had named a Icarus from day one before I ever picked up a camera. And you're thinking, was my thinking was, is that this the story of Icarus.

A myth of Icarus is basically a Chris is the on of of Datalus, and he wants to basically fly, and his father says, great, you can fly, and he builds the wax wings and he says, hey, you can, you can. You can fly. Just don't get too close to the sun or your wings are gonna burn and you're gonna plummet to your death. And to me, that

was the story of Lance Armstrong. It was the story of of any athlete that had essentially been caught cheating, which is them hadn't been actually caught for for taking drugs, even though they were they were taking drugs. They had been caught because they they of their own egos. They had been caught because somebody else had rated him out. They had been caught, you know, for for other various reasons. But it also was the metaphor for me of of anything in life, which is the idea that that you

can anything that you pushed too far. Um has an adversary effect. Hopefully that will be the effect for the current US had been rustration. But um, but that is essentially the myth of Icarus that you can you can fly as long as you're not an asshole. And just going back to this point, because all during the victories of Lands, Greg Laman is saying it's impossible because it's about oxygen processing and he has that process and Lamps doesn't, and he, you know, he got in trouble with his

bike manufacturer, et cetera. What was your view point on Laman who turned out to be right? Of course, my you know, here's the thing that you know, Laman won

three tours. He he could have won five tours, but he got shot by his I think brother in law hunting and then he basically e p O rethropoe eaton, which is increases red blood cell mass became started being used by essentially the peloton al all the guys who are writing, and Gallinda rain Spaniard Uh comes into cycling and all of a sudden he is he is a mutant,

and Lamand is suddenly slow. He goes from being the greatest writer in the world to just being a guy in the pack and Lamand realizes that essentially that all these guys essentially are taking e p O drugs, and instead of himself choosing to use e p O, he essentially decides to retire from the sport and then you know, has a bitter bitter taste in his mouth. Um. I don't know the whole relationship obviously between Lance and Lamand. But on the other hand, I mean, the guy did

win three tours, he could have won five. Um, he had a decision to make that. You know, hey, either either you know, either either go with the flow or you know or don't. He decided not to go with the flow, which was everybody starts taking the history. But as you're getting into the process, is he a hero or zero? When a book? Well, as a kid, he was my hero. Um, I don't. I don't. I don't know him personally, so I don't. I don't know how to comment on it. Um. I've gotten to know Lance

pretty well. Now, Um, what's your at this late date, what's you're feeling? Once? Um, I was riding bikes with him all last weekend and nasmen and Um, you know, he's he's complicated. But I love him or hate him? I mean the guy won seven Tour de Frances. He did, he won them? And uh. And when you talk to

all of and this was interesting. When I was making the original movie, I was talking to many of the guys that they're raced against him, and every single one of them, and I spoke to I said, did Lance win seven tours? And I said, and they would? Every single one of them said yes. I said did he win the fairly? And they said yes. I said, could

have you beaten Lance? And they said no. So when his entire peer group of everybody who raced against him during those seven Tour de France victories believes that he essentially won those tours, you got a question, this idea of wiping somebody else as somebody out of the history books, because when you do that with Lance, well why don't you go back to and wipe out Miguel into Rains victories? Why don't you wipe out every single tour victory from arguably who knows? When you know? Uh? And so you

know it was a it was a selective persecution. Yes, the guy had lied, Yes the guy had covered up the line million times, but it's not like the tours before him were one cleanly. And it's not like the tours after him were one cleanly. So especially essentially he got you know, those seven tours stripped from him, um

for for for complicated reasons. Uh. More of I think kind of a uh a moral efficacy to show that this behavior isn't going to be tolerated, You're not going to be able to lie and get away with it, rather than kind of a scientific reality of whether or not whether you know everybody else was doing it. Um. So,

it's it's it's a very complicated um situation. But I do have, you know, a lot of respect for him in the sense of the guy was single minded in his pursuit of a victory and love them or hate him, you know, I think the majority of athletes to get to that level, um have to be completely single minded in their focus, and he's certainly and he certainly was when it all costs and um and that's and that's

what he did. And Okay, So getting back to your narrative, you have this person who's gonna produce the move and you have creative differences. Yeah, and so what happens after that you part ways? So um So I realized that that I'm basically going into what I assessed was another Utopia movie situation where I wasn't going to be able to uh, to do what I wanted to do. Was that guy attached to the money, Well, what had happens. He wasn't giving the money, but my investor was attached

to him being attached. And that was my investor's confidence to put in the money because because this guy was was involved, and and this guy was seeing the film as basically like how you shoot a feature, how many shoot days you're gonna do, Who's going to be your crew,

your insurance or this year that? And I'm thinking to myself, no, no, no, this is this is me with a cameraman and another guy, and we're just gonna shoot, and we're gonna shoot, and we're gonna shoot, and we're gonna shoot and we're gonna shoot. And I have no idea where this going. But I don't need a crew on sliders and and drones and and you know, and twenty people on a set. I'm

just gonna go shoot every day. And and so I realized that this was not how I wanted to make it, and it wasn't anywhere what I envisioned in the film. And I realized this because I's in a conversation with a guy and it goes, so, wait, so you're gonna take drugs and you're gonna get super big, and I'll buffed out. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm I'm like a cyclist. Man, I'm going to turn into a toothpick

and I'm just gonna go up the mountains faster. And so he had like a whole different idea of what of what this was gonna be like he he imagined me turning into the Hulk, and I basically imagine myself turning into a toothpick and flying up the mountains, you know. So uh, there were all these things and and um, and I realized, and I'm like this, I don't want to make the movie under this. Um, under this notion.

Shall I go back to my friend? And I said, look, um, I want to take I want to take your money, and I really want to do this, but I can't work under under this. I went through I went through really bad situations and I just need to be free to create. I need to be able to to just go do this, to go make this film. And uh, and he basically said, go for it. I trust you,

I believe in you, go go do this. And so I set out essentially on on my own with with a cameraman UM and then I would hire other people for the first year of the production. And at the end of the first year, after I had shot a year, I put together this h It was like a twenty five minute piece with at the time a guy who was editing on the film, T J. ROADI and uh

Uh we put together this twenty five minute piece. And and I had brought in an amazing writer to help me by the name of Mark Monroe uh and kind of a consulting editor Doug Blush. And these two guys UM New Dan Cogan, who's Impact Partners and Impact Finances doc they're one of the very few companies that actually financed documentary truly Finances. UM and Mark Doug see this twenty five minute piece that I did, they said, I, I think this is great. Let us get this to Dan.

They get it to Dan, and the next day I literally get a call. Dan calls me goes, this is this is amazing. What do you need? How do we help you? We want to be a part of this, And that basically started the next three years of this film's journey, and you're living off the money that's part of the budget. Yes, during the time that I was making the film. Okay, so you decide to dope, when how do you actually get the dope? And how long do you take it? How do you feel when you're

taking it? Um, So I decided to tell me again, how do I get the drugs? So I get the drugs. This this is an interesting thing. So what we consider basically as doping is the same thing that's basically being sold as anti aging. So in the sport world, this is doping. In the in the medical science world, this is this is the fountain of you. But there's that guy who's like sixty five years old and every magazine who's buff who saw cybergenic? Right, Yeah, I mean it's

basically the same thing. I mean, what they're doing is they're selling testosterone, h G H, thyroid d H E, A vitamin injections I V you know, vitamins and you know, and so so what I realized was almost all of this stuff you could get with the prescription if I found basically an anti aging doctor. So, um, I find this guy in in Veil, Colorado, Scott Brandt's he's in the film a little bit, and I tell Scott what I want to do, and he's like, sure, great, I'll

prescribe you. He's not worried about any ethical issues. Well no, because I mean he's prescribing me legal you know. Basically, Now, I'm a guy who has low testosterone human growth hormone deficiency will. I mean, all guys essentially after they're like twenty five, have low testosterone. We all have human growth hone deficiency because our bodies basically stopped making growth hormone

after we stop growing. So every human on planet Earth once you're about eighteen or nineteen has a growth hormone deficiency. So that's what they prescribe under you know, low testosterone growth deficiency. Um. Basically, all of our thyroids generally start slowing down as our as our ability to process fats, which is why as you get older it's harder to lose weight. So you have a you know, whatever, a

slow thyroid or whatever is. You can take thyroid. You can take all these things under you know, essentially just under the auspices of aging. So he prescribes me all this stuff. Um. But the one thing that that is that is harder to get is is e p o orthropoeten And uh uh, I don't want to say how I got that, but I got it. And so just in theory, how does someone someone has to get it on the black market or it's available and you have to get the right kind of prescription. Either either you

can you can get on the black market. You can get it out of China and Taiwan in all these places if you know where, if you know where to go, and basically what what you know you can do is you you order a couple of them and hope that one of them makes to you, make it to you. Okay, so do you start to say, well, you know I got him, it's Wednesday, and start taking all of it, or did you start with one and add another one?

Well I had uh that was the whole thing, so you know, um uh Gregory Rachenkov, Um, you know I had met him. Okay, let me go back to the movie. Okay, you get the doctor in Veil and then you go to the doctor U. C. L A who says he's in and then he's out. Yeah, I mean then the Don Catlin was essentially out before I ever rolled a camera. Uh. He had referred me to Gregory, and I had started talking to Gregory essentially in February, which was right during

the Socy Olympics. Lo and Behold. Uh. So Don Catlin had decided not to be in the film before I ever started shooting. Um, and he had referred me to Gregory before I ever had, before I had ever started. Okay, so you did not even though you had the prescription, you didn't take anything until you spoke with Gregory. That's right, I had. I had come up with the plan, and the plan was we were starting. I started shooting about April. The first race in Europe, this Hote route, which I did,

was in August. So the plan was I was going to train clean, which I documented and shot hundreds of hours of footage. It's all basically sitting on hard drives because none of it really made it made its way into the movie. Very a very little bit of it

made its way into the film. I was going to train clean and then Gregor and I had a plan that basically starting in mid December January, the beginning of is when I would go on my doping program, and that would give me enough time to basically build the protocol, figure out my wash out period, which is you know, when you'll test clean, when you'll test positive. They're testing. Well, that was so that the race basically says they're going

to test, and to my knowledge, they never tested. And so as I as I saw that after the first year, I realized that in order to have any sort of um legitimacy to this, that I have to basically create and document my own process. And so in this and as I started doping, I got really religious about it. Um you know, like showing on camera, here's here's the newspaper, here's today's day, and my entire freezer was basically filled

with like frozen uh, piss samples, frozen urine samples. Okay, but going back, so in terms of it, I'm just worrying what physical effect did you feel when you started to take this drug? These drugs, it's incredibly subtle. So you know, there's this idea of oh my god, you're gonna turn into Superman. That's not it at all. Nothing takes the place of training, nothing takes the place of

a hard work. What what these drugs do, or hormones do is essentially help your body recover so that you can train just as hard the next day and over day after day, week after week, month after month. Because your body is recovering and you're able to do that same effort day in and day out, you become you know, fitter and stronger and faster. Uh So that is the

the overall result. But none of that takes the place of the training and all they so, and I didn't feel It's not like I started taking all this stuff and it suddenly felt like Superman. It was more like I was taking all this stuff and and you know, on a day and day out basis, I was recovering. Um and uh like the growth hormone. Whenever I would um, whenever I would take growth hormone, UM, my girlfriend at the time should go did you take h g H today? And I'd be like, why do you say that? And

she goes out when you smell like a baby? Um. So, and all of a sudden, that makes sense because the scent that we're responding to in puppies and babies is basically that they're making tons of growth hormone and that's what baby scent is, that's what puppy scent is. So apparently when I was taking growth hormone, I was. I smelled like a baby or a puppy. Very very very exciting for all your listeners, but um forgetting you know, the training, etcetera, and your everyday life when you were

taking this this regiment, did you literally feel any different? Well? Um, my libido was great? Uh it really it really helps you know, I mean, which is an obvious thing which in men, your your sex drive and everything is is essentially how much does sastro and you have? And that's why as you age, you know you're you're you're not as fierce. I guess and so so I was, and you know, I felt like I generally was like you know nineteen twenty again, um where you know, like, yeah,

I mean that that that that was? That was an interesting idea. Um. I also, I guess, was smelling like a baby. But did you feel okay or did you wake up and go? I felt I felt I felt great. I felt great. So what about going other than because you mentioned with the derivative of all the where all this comes from, are you now a believer in anti aging with these drugs? I don't. I don't take uh.

I stopped taking everything other than other than I've still taken like a very small dose of testosterone UM to to maintain kind of a like a healthy level, because my my testosterone was actually low, legitimate legitimately low. If I go off of it, it's like it's legitimately on the low side. So I take like a very small, a small amount, like you know, like um, once a week,

I'll take I'll take a small amount um. Other than that, I don't take any of this stuff because the h G H. The thing is is if you're taking h g H long term, what they say is that your

forehead starts growing, that your actual bones start growing. And so like Gregory and and guys um, Gregory was always able to like look at guys and go he took too much HD eight, which is like if you look like a lot of these football players are big wrestlers and stuff, you've got these huge heads, well, you know, apparently that's kind of a side effect of h g H, which is your your jaw on your forehead keep growing.

So you basically turned to neanderthal um. So I, you know, it was like, you know, I I don't want to you know, side out. I don't take any h G H anymore. UM, the E p O, which is increasing your blood red blood cell mass. There's no reason for me to take that either, because why do I need to you know, I'm not I'm not competing in racing. I don't need that oxygen carrying capacity um. UM. So yeah, I mean, my my experience with it is that, um,

the public perception is very different than the reality. Um. And the only thing that I've that but I but the H G H certainly helped in recovery. That that is without questions. Okay, so before you find before Gregory, let's all the information of his history. What is the end of the movie going to be? When the end of the movie was hopefully going to be that I had beat the test, you know, the Gregory which you

know you believe and everything that he goes. You know, you beat the test, and and the takeaway was woe if you could do this? What does this mean? You know clearly clearly the system has got a lot of

a lot of flaws in it. Um. But at the same time I did that race the second year, I didn't do as well as I wanted to do, and I was and I was really questioning my my thesis at the time, and um, but you know, Gregory was under investigation, and I had spent that that year while I was doping and racing, I was also interviewing all of the guys who were investigating Russia and investigating Gregory, and none of them had any idea that I was working with Gregory. None of them had any idea I

was doping. And that was how I was able to get those interviews where all these guys are essentially talking candidly, not realizing that that not only did I know the guy, but that I was, you know, working with him and doping. So what point does the bell go off in your head? Wait a second, I have another story here that I'm

gonna tell. UM, I would I would consider it more like a ping that had been you know, had been ping ping, you know, for for about a year, where where clearly there was, um, there was an elephant in the room, but I didn't know if it was gonna turn into a wooly mammoth or whether it would just

you know, kind of just go away and leave. Because I didn't know what this investigation was going to find, and I certainly didn't know how deeply into what level Gregory was involved because during that year and a half I was working with before UM the film takes his turn, he hadn't disclosed that to me. I mean, he had kind of hinted that he was, you know, but he

had never disclosed this. UM. So, so I had I had believed, um that there was a bigger story, and I was working on that, on that on that story, I was, you know, I was, I was making sure that I had that foot in the door. But I also had made a very conscious decision that if I became Gregory's like investigator UM or if I became you know, basically the guy who was going to go try to try to do this, that that I would lose what my what my premise was that I wouldn't be able

to execute my plan. And to me at the time, UM my my thesis, and also working with Gregory, this incredible character was going to be enough to make for an interesting and hopefully entertaining film. UM And and so as as that story progressed, UM, the real turning point to me was of course November where where WADA, the World Anti Doping Agency, releases that its findings of this of this investigation and it's a three report, but it

is focused only on athletics track and field UH. And that was because WADA, which is in the pocket of the i o C, the Olympics UH, their mandate was

only that they could investigate track and field. So even though Richard McLaren and Dick Pound and Go the Younger had uncovered all this other evidence across other sports, the report, the three page report, everything else was redacted out of that report that didn't have to do with track and field because WADA was still trying to essentially sweep this

under the carpet with with the ioc UM. But this report was damning enough that Gregory was forced to resign from the lab, the laboratory was suspended, and Russia was banned from international competition and all athletics and track and field. And and that basically UM followed with with Putin on state television because now this was a pretty big scandal, UM coming out and essentially saying that not only is Russia have nothing to do with this, and we deny

this entire report and everything in this report. But if anything in this report is true, UM, it will be the individuals that will be held accountable and punishment will be absolute. And that was Gregory's death sentence. That was that was it right there. And and so I'm watching this unfold in the news media while I'm while I'm skyping with Gregory, and um, we're about six days into it, and I'm thinking, and I'm trying to convince Gregory to let me come to Moscow. I'm like, hey, I want

to I want to come. You know, this is now unfolding, and now I'm going, whoa, this is? This is the story. And Gregory's like, no, no, no, no, no, no no, do not come to Moscow. And and uh and there we are, and just as that is in the film. Uh. He reaches a point about six seven days in where he realizes that they're going to kill him, that they're planning his suicide. And I said, hey, let me I want to come to Rush. He's like no, no, no, no no no, I need to get out. I need to escape.

And I'm like when when do you want When do you want to go? And he goes tomorrow. I said, I said tomorrow. He goes, hees, yeah, I need a ticket, buy me a ticket. I need to get a ticket. And and the conversation was literally happening. I think probably ten o'clock at night, you know, my time, and I go online. I find him a ticket. I'm like, okay, there's a flight tomorrow with like you know, like literally twelve hours after that, I'm like, there's a flight tomorrow.

This this is like good, okay, book it. And I booked the ticket and I go, oh my god, this guy is coming. And and we didn't know if he was going to get through you know, immigration, if you if Russia had put a hold onto visa, but um, he had a US visa because he had been lecturing in the United States UM on anti doping, and the head of the US Anti Doping Agency, Travis Tiger, had given Gregory the visa to come lecture in the United States on anti doping even though he was the anti

anti doping Lab director. And Russia, because it was seven days after this whole report just hadn't got around it. You know, it was so fast that they hadn't put a stop on his on his on his visa, They hadn't put it into you know, into interpoll to stop him from traveling, and so he was miraculously able to get out. He arrives in Los Angeles and about a month later, right about Christmas, I realized that this is

essentially this a scandal on a magnet. That's that's unfathomable, um and that and that the evidence he has essentially changes all of Olympic history. We'll pause here for a brief moment and get right back to Brian Fogel. Many of you already know that I'm a writer, but for those who think I'm just the host of this podcast, check out my archived and left sets dot com in addition to reading my commentary on music tech in the world at large. Will be the first to find out

where we're publish a new podcast. Go to left sets dot com and sign up for the news letter. Now more with Academy Award winning filmmaker Brian Fogel, recorded at the tune In Studios in Venice, California. Now, do you think deep inside when he was working with you, he had an urge to get this story heard or it just happened by accident. You've been asked that question so many times, and I think it was it was a

combination of things. We we developed a really big trust between us and and the trust was was a friendship that I think crossed any boundaries of a of a of documentary film. And and I think it was because at the time I was the subject and he was the advisor. And then it flips and he becomes the subject and I become his advisor and protector and and so we we had this trust and and and he liked that it was devious. He saw me as kind of devious. He saw me as a guy who was

out there to kind of buck the system. H Gregory loved Armstrong Lance, huge fan, and like the idea that I was going to show that you know, that Lance was just one of of of you know, of so many and and he liked that I as an athlete because he is an athlete. And and in his mind he had justified which is kind of like maybe like a Russian thing. He basically went, oh, Brian's an amateur athlete,

so it's okay. Even though even though you know, even though everything he's doing was against all water code, he kind of decided that because I wasn't like basically a Russian professional athlete, that this was not going to be a big deal, which is kind of insane to think, but that is, uh, that's what happened. And and there was never a dime of money exchanged ever. H But at this late date, he's still in hiding, right, Yeah, and his family is still in Russia, that's right. And

his family safe from what I've heard. Yes, Okay, So now this all happens, at what point do you say, not only do I have a different film here, but this is gonna be a big story and I'm gonna I'm gonna make Hay with his film. Well, um, I knew that it was a really big story right at the end of you know, right as this was happening, the question really became between me and my my producing team, Dan Cogan, David Fialco, Jim Schwartz, Um was how are

we going to get this story out? How are we going to see to it that this that that his evidence could be proven as true? How were we going to protect him? And how were we going to manage this crisis? And and you know, and I truly had his life in my hand. Um, you know, we went to using burner phones, We took our edit offline, we moved our production offices four times, we moved Gregory's location

four times. I mean, it became a cat mouse games as the stakes were increasing and UM, and we brought on a crisis manager, Mike Citric, very very well known guy. The New work Times last week had a huge front cover Sunday story on him, and and he's considered the fixer. He's a guy that like every guy like even Trump. Trump went to him in his bankruptcies, Kobe Bryant went to him with when he was Michael Jackson went to him.

Most recently, Harvey Weinstein went to him, and Mike Citric basically dismissed him as a client once he realized, you

know how bad this was. UM. But so we bring on Citric and and what we were trying to figure out was how we were going to get him, uh the right lawyer, and how we were going to bring this story public and UM and all these elements, you know, between the FBI getting involved, between Nikita Kamaia of his friend who was running Russata dying, we realized we were out of time, and we made a decision that we were going to go to the New York Times and UH,

Mike and Sally Hoffmeister his his partner, UM basically called Dean back and say the editor the editor of the New York Times and say, um, we have the Moscow Lab director and he'd like to talk. Would you like

to come out to Los Angeles? And the next day Rebecca Ruiz and Michael Sartz come to Los Angeles and myself, Dan Cogan and Gregory Rachenkov sit for three days with The New York Times and we had prepared this dossier, this like three page three uh, you know, three ring binder of essentially, you know, one of the greatest gifts ever given to the New York Times. It was it was here it is, guys, here is the biggest scandal in the history of sports, wrapped up in a bow

in a silver box. You know that we've already engraved n y T and uh. And we sat there for three days and we presented everything, Gregory presented everything. Um, and they ran the story front page the following week, huge story, you know, with a whole fold out, and then the following day with another front page with a fold out and uh. And then the whole chain of events continued to to transpire that ultimately lead to Russia being banned from the Olympics. So you make the movie

and the movie premieres at Sundance. Yeah. So it premieres uh in January of last year, January at Sundance, and and I did not feel like the film was finished. My creative team didn't feel like the film was finished. We the story was still unfolding. Uh. And yet you know, when Sundance calls, you have six weeks to finish your film. UH, And anybody who's made a film knows that that is not a lot of time. And so all of a sudden you're in this crazy race to getting your sound mixed,

on getting everything. Then, but we went into Sundance with with a film. You know, I think everybody saw it, Sundance loved it, and uh, but in my mind, it was not It was not where it needed to be because the story was was was was was still unfolding. UM. And Netflix acquires it, and Lisa Nishimura and Adam Deldeo incredible partners, and and in essentially the negotiations, the first

conversation is basically, uh, films not finished. And they agree and they allow me and my team basically the next five months to continue to work on the film to complete it. And we finished the film basically about this time last year, and then it aired premiered on Netflix in August following like Sundance London and a f I Dock and a bunch of festivals that had opened, and you're happy with the finished product. There's nothing in that film that that that I don't want, and there's nothing

in that film that I would want to put in. Okay, So when it comes out, I mean, maybe it's an Olympic year. But it took, like it seemed from the outside, it took a while for the story to build in public consciousness. Did you feel that it did? Um? It was. It was certainly building in the sense that the New

York Times story, the following stories, the investigation. Um. But I think as as kind of as big as the story was in the global press and certainly seeing it in papers all over the world, um, I think a film, um. And certainly, you know, Netflix being a hundred ninety countries, a million homes all of a sudden, Watching something on a television is very different than reading something in a newspaper.

So okay, if we're reading about let's say, the immigrants crisis, is a separation going on between families right now, we can read about that in a paper and go, oh my god, that's terrible, or we might see a clip of that on CNN and go, oh my god, that is that is horrendous, But in the hands of the right creative team, and you craft that into into a narrative, which what we did with Icarus with music and sound and graphics and visual effects and animation and everything that

is in that film. I think, um, it has the power uh to to really resonate. And I think that when the film came out, Um Gregory um became somebody not you know, a deviant on the pages of the New York Times who had orchestrated this doping plot, but became human and you see him for who he is as this lovable, incredible character that basically is is is complicated, but you know, but fully redeemable and and wants to

come forward with the truth and tell the truth. You see that the size and scope of the scandal in a in a visual way of what this really was in the Denial of Russia. And I think that those elements um resonated and set off kind of a whole other um cascading um uh you know, domino effect. Because in the in the film as it sits right now, it says that Russia is going to the Winter Olympics and in August, and when we finished the film this

time last year, that was true. But the film and what it's set off in the media, and then the work of Gregory's legal team and the work of the pr team behind the film was able to keep this story in the media, keep showing how big this fraud was and forced the Olympics to take action, which they didn't want to do. They did not want to write. Now from your perspective, though, because we live in a world where there are so many media messages, it's hard

to break through. And you were at the epicenter. But did you feel as the months went by from August to the Olympics, could you feel the film having a greater attention in the world at large? Of course, and um, and it was a combination of the film being seen and and people like you and everybody you know that that the word of mouth And what I've found in the last year of this is has everybody's seen the film?

I mean Lance Armstrong included, you know, they see the film and then they go tell every one of their friends that, oh my god, you have to see this, Oh my god, you have to see this or people have seen the film two times, three times, four times. I was, I was, um, you know last week, you know, and this happens to me all the time I met somebody, he goes. So I saw the film because a friend of mine told me I had to see it. And then um, I made my kids watch it, and then

we watched again with the entire family. And then we like, I mean, and the and we just amazing things in the film. You know, when you have Putin's denial, extrapolate that to every other thing he says relevant of doping, and when you see the scratches in the bottles from

them previously being open, it's like better than any fiction movie. Yeah, and there it is, and and and I think that you know what what happened is as you see this film and in the edit after Sundance, of course Trump had come into office, there was evidence that the election was hacked, and of course all the denials of truth and fake news and stuff. But we made a very conscious decision creatively that we weren't going to go there.

We weren't going to get into the election. We weren't going to but we wanted to leave people with it and I think and I think we succeeded in this that we wanted to leave people with a Okay, if Russia was capable of this, is there any doubt that they could do that? And also if Putin lies about this, is there any doubt as to what else he's willing

to lie about? And then and and hopefully mirror what has been the continuing effect of of um, you know, the the ongoing scandal and what's you know going on in the Mueller investigation, etcetera. So we we wanted to to have that resonate, which is the themes of of orwell and double think and that narrative which is which is truly unfolding on a daily basis um in this

country and and certainly you know has been in Russia. UM. So that was kind of a very conscious decision that we made in creative process to leave those events out, but to hopefully leave the viewer with this feeling of angst um and kind of a pit in their stomach of how corrupt uh uh it's not only sport is but but the geopolitical process behind it. Well, you've certainly achieved your goal, and you really truly made a classic film, even though it's stated a specific time, the lessons will

live for many decades beyond that. And the obvious question, and I'm surely not the first one to ask you this either, is now what UM? You know they up into the Oscar Race UM the Academy Awards. You know, I didn't have time to to focus on what I

was going to do next. But but I've had a lot of UM things in in the Zeyecheist UM and so there's there's a narrative feature that I'm attached to that I can't quite discuss yet to direct it, and it's an extraordinary script on a on a true story that is as as resonant and and politically relevant as Hicarus UM. There's a couple of unscripted doc series that I'm working on developing that that I hope to be soon, you know, going out with UM. And there's a couple

of doc projects that I'm looking to produce UM. So I'm I'm kind of I I have a lot of ideas and things that I want to do, and and you know, with with all the creative process, it all takes time to to come together. So it doesn't it's not like a an overnight thing, even if other people want to work with you. Um, but I but I have um projects right now that I'm passionate about that. I'm that I'm working to get off the ground. Now. I'm sure it wasn't your goal in making this film.

Certainly hearing you for the last hour to win an Oscar, But in this particular case you did, okay, And on some level that's a pinnacle of you know, pure appreciation winning the Oscar. But in this particular case, it's for a film that's not evanescent. It's not something Oh, it's a life trifle. Okay. Does having been to the mountaintop, is it easy to then go back and say I'm gonna make another film or is there somewhat a feeling

I've done that I need a new challenge. Well, I think that's um it's an interesting question because, uh, this is kind of the second time of my life on a different level where I've felt like I kind of went to the mountaintop and and when I had this play and it went to New York and then became a big success, and um, I said to myself, well, how am I going to top this? How do I and I didn't want to go do Gutopia too. I

didn't want to. Like I, I was like, well, anything I do is not going to you know, is not going to have this same thing. And I and I kind of became trapped in it in a way because I think that's that idea of having this whatever is as as a musician whatever you have this iconic album you know, um, you know, and and how you're going

to top that? And it's and it's why you know, Roger Waters is still playing The Wall after all these years and Dark Side of the Moon because it's well, hey, you keep putting out new music, but it's not The Wall, it's not Dark Side of the Moon, it's not led Zeppelin to you know, it's just how you're going to top that? UM. And and so then to have this UM with Icarus on on a whole other level, on a on a global level. But the recognition of the of the Oscar which UM was just the most humbling

of moments in my life. I just I still can't believe it. I that that that that we this team one one and and going on that journey and going on that stage alongside Dan and Jim and David and that was that was I don't. I don't know how you ever topped that, So I don't. I don't think I look at how to essentially top it. I think I look at how I can kind of move forward like creatively and do things um that I'm passionate about.

So for me, UM, it's why I'm looking to um take a leap back into directing UM scripted feature because it won't be compared to Icarus, so it'll be it'll be another challenge for me to to use you know, those my my creative um uh skills or or mind to craft something hopefully of of relevance. And and and also if I'm producing in the documentary space, which is what I'm which is what I'm looking to start to do, UM, the films can live independently and not be judged against Chorus.

So I know that if I go and immediately go direct another doc feature, no matter what it is, it will immediately be compared to Icarus, and it'll be like, well it's it's not Icarus. Well, well it can't be because I'll never be able to replicate that story or that journey. So I need to take a step back and and go find another creative outlet and and continue, you know, in the dock space um in uh in a little bit of a little bit of a hands

off sense. Uh and but I I uh, I'm just kind of taking it a day at a time and try not to put much pressure on myself, um and uh and hopefully that the next journey will be successful or if it's not, all I'll go back to director's jail and then figure out how to how to start a kill. You have a long history of picking yourself up. I mean, the process may be painful, but you've always seemed to find the next thing, whether it be you know, going to become a comedian, doing the showcases, doing the

one man show, you know, etcetera. So in any event, this has been wonderful, very insightful. I think we've gotten a three D picture far beyond the movie and far beyond other things that I've read, that people get to understand who you truly are, where you came from. So this has really been great, really edifying and interesting, and I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks Bob as Uh, You're a fantastic interviewer, because in all the interviews that that

I've given around this and there's been a lot. I found myself talking about things that I've I've not spoken about in in any interview that I've done well. That certainly puts a smile on my face. And I was also anxious with something that has gotten so much attention. So I think we covered the basics and also the pnumbra. Thanks again, Thanks Bob. That wraps up this week's episode of the Bob Left Sets podcast, recorded live at the two In Studios in Venice, California. I hope you enjoyed

this conversation with Oscar winning filmmaker Ryan Fogel. I certainly did. I saw the movie. You should bial it up on Netflix. Hanging in There. It takes a wild twist, some of which we've covered. Your eyes will bug out and a orderately be Abob bike racing. Lit'll be about America and Russia and the world it later. It's a riveting story and I can't wait to see what he does next. Until that time, email me comments questions negative things that

Bob and left sets dot Com. Until next time, I'm Bob left Sets out to do me try