Andy Grammer

rebellion and optimists. Were you always an optimist? Yeah? I think I was kind of like I think I came out this way. Well, I mean that makes it easier in a business where it's almost impossible to succeed. Impossible, stupid exactly. So do you come from a family of optimists? I do? You know? My My dad as a children's singer. His name is Greg Grammer, unbelievable Grammy nominated child a singer We lost to Mr Rogers compilation album a while back. Um,

and my mother helped him write the songs. So I grew up around um Yeah, a lot like a lot of like good vibes and songwriting. I have to ask, Okay, is Gramm or the original name or did they change that for the act? No real name, real name? Do you have any idea of the derivation of them? Uh? Yeah, I think it's German? Okay. Uh so you were discovered busting Yeah. Man. Well, first I want to say that you are a fascinating figure to me, and I'm a

huge fan of yours. My wife when we was probably ten years ago, my wife was interning at Warner Records, and she's like, Oh, you have to get that. You have to listen to this. I mean, you have to subscribe to the Lessets letter because he's like the he's got the pulse. And so we were both like all right, and we just I've been reading you ever since, and I find you really really interesting and I love the voice of like you have this sense that you just

don't care what anyone else thinks. Is that true? Well? No, you know, yes, but that's true. I Mean there are a couple of things there. There's a Bob Dylan line to live outside the law. You must be honest, you know, and so if you take the money, you're compromised, you know. So if you don't take the money, you can say whatever you say. And at this point I still occasionally get people emailed me a little bit more than occasionally. You don't wanting to do a trade out like hype that,

and I say, you know, I don't do that. And the other thing is people don't understand the game, which is is someone he gives you something and you burn them. That just burns the relationship. You're just done, So you can't do that. But I think this is very similar to the election we have. I'm trying to come from the vision of reality. Frequently, everybody knows reality, but nobody

speaks it, so therefore I'm saying it. And certainly we had all this technological revolution and the music business was scnary in the coal mine, and it's fascinating to watch the television and movie business still wrestling with that after they could look back at the turmoil we went through. So yes, you know, you might be the only critic a critic or now I don't really but I don't

have a big term problem with the term. Yeah, you're one of the only ones that I that I will actually check in on when you say when you say stuff, and I don't always agree with you, but I know that you are coming from a very sincere, honest place, and that's dope. Man. Well that's what that's really great. You know, I said, you know, I may not agree

with you, but I know that's really your opinion. But in a world where that's kind of rare, I congratulate, you know, as I say, that's what the music used to be. Uh. It used to be in the sixties and early seventies in America for getting inherited wealth. In Europe, a musician was as wealthy as anybody in America and therefore what we'd call the rock star lifestyle, which has

not been taken over by bankers and people. It was like, oh yeah, I mean the famous thing was, yeah, we wrecked the hotel room, our road manager shows up with a roll of hundreds and we move on. It's like, uh, And then you know, I'm not necessarily uh in favor of some of this behavior. But there's a famous story. God time goes back and you're young in the mid seventies seventy five, I believe where Neil Young and Steven still has did an album or may run. They had

a tour planned. Neil Young famously to this day goes into his sort of modified Winnebago and Stephen Stills went down first, and Neil Young cinema uh telling me, said, doesn't feel right. I'm not doing it okay, whereas everybody says, oh, I'm working hard, you know, because that's what I'm supposed to do. And I think that's a problem we have

in the music business now. First and foremost of the music business now, people are either very successful, there's not much of the middle class, okay, and a lot of people on the lower end. Bitch. There's two kinds of people that bitch. They're the people who were pissed that they missed out on the glory days of the major labels, etcetera, who probably do to have the talent. And then the

people were the beneficiaries of that. And when we came to the internet, we found out people didn't really want to listen to their music that much. Yeah, okay, so we have these I want to disagree with the middle class. You think there's no middle class. I feel like that these days get you. Wait, wait, wait, wait, let's define middle class. Middle class to me means that you are a musician that gets to make their own music, and

you make enough money to live comfortably. Okay, I mean, I hate to put metrics on it, but I will you that middle class musician. How many tickets does that person sell as they tour? I mean there are people that I think that are middle class that can sell thousand tickets. Thousand tickets is a real is real number. How low would it go when you still consider them to be middle class? I guess it depends. If we're just talking money, then you could sell three hundred. But

if you're a sinc beast, then like your middle class. Okay, I think they're It's kind of it looks like the country at large. We still have a middle class, but it is not the dominant bubble. It's more lower middle class. I do not have a problem with people. The problem becomes that a lot of the people you're referencing who have a have fans, have a career, don't stop complaining that they're not more successful. If the people were saying this is what I do and this is who I am, great,

I mean. On the other end, I did Folk Alliance, which is actually a fascinating organization. This goes back about seven or eight years ago and I'm talking and a guy said, uh, are you gonna tell me? I forget. The term was sort of like a middle class musician. I know, how much do you make in a year? He goes, I grows ten thousand dollars. I think you know, this guy's in his own world. Okay, so you know,

but it used to be very different. Going back from my original point, it used to be the threshold was getting a major your label deal. There were six major companies up in god the nineties when he started getting consolidation. That those companies, unlike today, usually would stay with you, especially Warner Brothers for five records, and therefore you would not only you you got their money, and you also got their publicity and hopefully some radio play such that

people became aware of you. And if it ended, you still had something. I mean, I'm gonna get into dangerous territory. Go there. Anyway. There's this act Amy Man. She had a hit with Till Tuesday on Columbia of Voices carry I love that, Okay. Then she was a critics Darling forever. Okay. When the label money dried up, it turns out there was a limited number of Amy Man fans, not judging the music whatsoever. But she was supported by the system.

Everybody who was involved prior to the Internet. They're still bitching. I think this has killed rock music because they keep telling their fans don't stream, and that's where all that's where all the action is. But I do believe going back. Yes, there are some people who are beneficiaries of that who are complaining they're not making money today. But the truth is not that many people want to listen to their music. But there's also a number of people who say, God,

I want to suck at the major label tent. I wish that I had all this money, which is not how they do it any They don't do that anymore. My question to you is what's the net gain or loss of having a small amount of people they get what you're talking about, or a large amount of people they get uh freaking distribution. Okay, for let's look at

it from the consumer end. Yeah, the turn of the century and Internet, everybody was involved who had success previously said oh, there's gonna be no money in music, no one's gonna make music. Needles say they were totally wrong. The opposite happened. Okay, the barrier to entry is essentially

non existent. You can make a song on garage band today for no money if you have a computer, and you can upload it to a service that will put it on the streaming services, and then you'll spam everybody saying, hey, you gotta listen to my stuff. Okay. So if you are on the consumer end, it is almost the scene is almost incomprehensible because if you go back to where

you started, you have a lot of bullshit. You have the labels saying, you know, this is what bothers me label say everything we put out is great, which is untrue. Sure most of them. If you say this is the one thing, listen to this great, okay, but there are so many things. If I go through the Spotify top fifty, first of all, you go to through the U S Top fifties, mostly hip hop, some pop. Okay. Uh, you might find one or two songs that surprise you. Okay,

maybe exactly. I'm glad you said that. But then you gotta go through all the other genres. You gotta go through country, you gotta go through an electronic. The scene is overwhelming such that, uh, you discover something and you say to yourself, am I the only person who's listening to this. Okay, So we're looking for some community. Uh,

I'll give you an example with the movies. It used to be until about two thousand three, two thousand five, boomers would go out to the movies because that would give him a point of commonality when they hung together. Then all of a sudden, everybody realized we're not making our kind of movies and they stopped going. Now it's television. But even television, you know, you can't talk music when you get together people because no one's listening to the

same thing. And then you get the BS from the media industrial complex saying hip hop, it's hip hop whatever. So if you're not listening to hip hop, you don't count. Okay, and I'm not. I don't want to make it about hip hop. What I want to make it is never in the history recorded music, certainly in my lifetime. Uh has the big been so small? Yes, it used to be. If you had to hit, everybody knew it. They may not like it, Okay, Taylor Swift, you know one of

the biggest acts. You know, if you go back two albums ago, whatever it's called, the average person is aware of. Uh, we are never ever getting back together, but they can't sing any of the other songs, so no one has that reach. So my point once again is is someone cobbles together a living. I have no problem with it. I think that's great, okay, But frequently those people are not happy where they are and they're bitching. And secondly,

as a consumer, we're just overwhelmed. I would agree with the consumer thing that we're overwhelmed and that there's a lot of people that are not being served by this current situation. There's so much attention being left on the table. I know there's a lot of people that like the style of music that I make, and it is my job to try and figure out how the hell do I get to you right now? Because the modes to get there are not as big or similar to what

they've been, So how do you do it? Um? You know, right now, there's like a big push towards what I would think is kind of what I've read you say as well. It's like, I think it's less about trying to take over the world and trying to build your niche, Like everyone has their own niche, so I think it's tripling down on specifically what you do that may not have worked well, you know that artistically, that usually is how you get to something good anyway, is by just

being like, all right, this is my thing. I'm gonna triple down on this. I'm gonna try this, take risks here, um and then see all see the modes that used to be the big win as just another piece. You know. I had a viral video on Facebook this year that was like maybe the driving factor of my career I had.

I went and played on Good Morning America. It was to Today's show awesome, and then then and then right after I went to this classroom was called PS twenty two and I sang my song Don't give Up on Me with a bunch of kids that had learned it, and that thing went insane. And I went on tour and the number one thing I heard was of new fans was like, oh man, I saw your video on Facebook. That's why I'm here. Okay, I'm gonna ask and do you know how many people viewed that video? I think

it's like sixty million. Was it completely viral or did you work it? It started completely viral? And then uh, this company crowd Surf that I work with, then they start like it's kind of honestly, like a label. Once they see they have something, then you start going like whoa, And that was something I knew was viral, and I reached out to every one of my friends. You know, there was this thing that it used to be, like

promoting singles. It's kind of dead now, but in the early stages of when social media was happening, you have artists that would be like, go check out my friend's song. It was like a season where that happened, and then we all fucking hated it. Right, well, that's what I was video. Oh my god, Dave, you don't text me Gangham style, and then everybody tried to have a viral video. The last one was Bouer of the Harlem Shake and people, this is manipulated, and then we don't have that kind

of video anyway. Yeah, they do on TikTok still differ with you, but the full different universe. You go there, yea, he walked in there and around. Well, but this is just like rock band Guitar Hero because certainly Little nas X was boosted and made on TikTok Okay, so now everybody says, oh, it's all about TikTok and they're gonna get and they're gonna burn it out. I'm not saying TikTok the platform will necessarily burn out, but as a vehicle to break records, you know, it's really more about

the participants in the music on that site anyway. So or what we say is what we're saying, which is kind of interesting, is like, you know, I'm good friends with the need to Breathe guys. You don't need to Breathe. No, I don't. They're this band. I had him on my podcast. No he knows who they are, except they sell like nine thousand tickets shows and you're like, slow, what are you talk so fill out red rocks like two nights in a row. Okay, wait, the name of the act.

It's called need to Breathe. Oh, need to Breathe. Yes, I heard it is a need to Breathe ground No, no, no, no, I just need to breathe. And what what he said what was so cool is he's like there was a point where we were like, we don't care about anyone

except the fan that's coming to my show. I don't care about radio, I don't care about anything else except for like, I just want to over deliver for you, and we've done that over and over again, and now we have this huge base and whether people know who we are or not, we don't care. How many acts survived outside of the golden era that you're speaking of, were radio actually, like when when labels mattered more than ever? In radio matter more than ever? Did you even have

a shot is closed? And you don't have need to breathe? Right? Yeah, Well, the fascinating thing, of course, this need to breathe is existing out of the mindset of the media industrial complex. They have no slot to fit that in talking about forgetting even a label hyping it. But the media, the media says, we listened at the we look at the charts, we get our information from the labels. That's all that exists. And your point is well taken that they're all these

other acts. So I'm I'm now like almost ten years into my career. I have a really awesome loyal fan base that like specifically what I do, and I'm like, yes, I definitely have a lot of relationship at radio and put so much energy into that and I will continue to do that. But also, like, man, how do you exist? What? What is the forest? When you leave and go in your own zone and just start creating. Okay, let's let's go a little bit slower. Before you went on the

Today's Show. Yeah, what was your thought? We that song? Um? One of my best friends that I was roommate with for a while, he had a movie that came out. It was a big hit this year, called five ft Apart, and he needed a song and I kept sending them songs and this one worked first movie. How many song the three? Not many, but I'd send him on. He's like, just just to get into the process. Yet, okay, how long after he said he he brought you? You didn't

pitch him? Correct, No, he texted we're like best friends. He texted, I need a song. How long after he said he said, you know there's this other big name artist that they're trying that they want me to use and he's charging Mad Doe. Okay, a song that can beat his song and you don't have to charge me like crazy money. Yet? Okay? How long after he texted you did you start to write? I had written it that week. It was like perfect, So that song you'd

already written. I wrote it that week and then I was like, oh, I just wrote this one, what do you think of this one? And then it worked perfectly and that came out in the movie and reacted gang but a little bit, a little bit slower the song tell me the process of the development of the song. The song called Don't give up on Me, I could really I know that every that now I'm I'm a big enough thing that needs like a lot of feeding. I have, like you know, my band as retainers. There's

all this ship. Everybody's like your band is on retainer, some of some of them arias fifty two weeks a year, yes, versions of that. So that plus just like it's just a big thing now to move my machine forward. So I need like any business. But it's a little bit weird the music business because you're trying to find unicorns. It's like really freaking hard to find it, especially in this day and age. And so I was really feeling

stressed because I can. I'm having me and my manager, we'll have a pretty good gut about like we don't have the magic that we need. You know. There's another story about my second album. We we released the album. I mean, we're we're having an album released party. We're playing everybody of the songs and then we leave. My managers like he's a lot like you just like straightforward.

This can be blunt. Sometimes he's like, we don't have the thing we need, and I know I've written a hundred songs for that album, and then we went and wrote a hundred and one was Honey I'm Good. So like we know, just to slow down. You had the album listening party, and then you did not release that album in that form? No, how long after did you have the final album? But we just needed as soon as we wrote that song, we just added we just how long after that? I wasn't like printed, it was

like get together. How long after that did you write the song? Next day? Okay? Yeah, okay, So this is like you may or may not know this story. Bruce Springsteen manager saying I'm born in the USA, saying we didn't have a hit, and he immediately wrote Dancing in the Dark exactly so, And it's kind of funny because your manager goes like we need it, and you're like, I just wrote a hundred, so I guess I'll write

another one. I hate you, okay, but when you wrote Honey I'm Good, walk us through the process of how you did that. So it was me and my great friend Nolan's pipe and it was just the two of us and we got together, uh and we you know, like most great songs came out in like two hours. But a couple of questions, what percentage of your songs written solo or what percentage with other people? Most of them at this part, at this point are with other people.

And I think the reason that is is once I got really settled in my point of view, I started to see immense value of co writing. Just go a little deeper until you know your point of view. Co writing can be a little dicey because you don't know what you're gonna say, so then words start get thrown

like lines are getting thrown around. Point of view is being thrown around, and if you're not set on what you're here to bring, then it can be you can you know, I have a couple of songs that if when I look back, I'm like, oh, that's not really my point of view necessarily, and I don't really stand behind that. But once you know, you like I know who I am, I know what I'm about, I know what I want to sing about, then it's like, go

get the best melody person you've ever met. Oh my god, get the first the best track guy, and let me help direct this thing and and get myself amplified as great as I can be. Okay, so you're specifically it's just not some guy who's had hits. You're looking for a specific role reality what I And then you learn so now album you know, I'm writing for whatever my next album is. And I've had all these, you know, four albums of being next to some of the most

incredible melody people in the world. You'd be stupid if you don't learn something of that. Oh man, you learn all these sweet tricks about you know. For me, I was just going off of feel. I had no sense that, like, your highest notes should probably be in in the chorus, and if it's not, then you better have a good

freaking reason why it's not. A lot of like rhythmic things of like you should probably have your cadence in your precorus, be a different rhythm than the hook, because that's what makes it pop. Like little tricks that that seem basic. But when they started becoming party repertoire, undeniably,

your songs are just better. You just get better. This was something I learned at the Street Uh Street perform in Santa Monica was this idea that art is kind of subjective when it's a when it's good, everybody responds, No, I mean I go through there's people. You know, there's famous line about William Goldman about the movie business. No one knows anything. But it's funny you said this because I didn't argue with someone who thinks he's a real artist.

When you're a real artist, you know when you create an eleven, you know you cannot do it that often, but when you do it, you know, And I guess what's interesting is now, So there's that I was on the street, and I know when you know I'm playing this song, nobody cares strangers. It's really important. If anybody's listening,

that's a starting musician. Please stop playing for your family, Go play for people that do not care about you, because if you can turn them now, you have something and for the most part, you don't like just by averages, you don't have something that a stranger cares about. And if you're willing to be on the street for four years and find fifteen minutes over four years, that for the most part, every person will care about. Then you have something. Okay, I want to go back to the thread.

So just working our way back. You were with the writing partner and you did, honey, I'm good, just going sub When you work with these third parties, to what degree do you say, uh huh or what do you know? Not my vision? Oh? Actually yeah, people bring in ideas or you're coming up with it on the spot. And for the most part, you know, when you're when you're starting to co write, you're finding the people that work

well with you. So there are really weird pairings that just don't work at all and you leave and you go like that. But since you are the artists, yeah, okay, and you're talking about learning from these people, to what degree is it just vacuuming information in melodically vacuuming? Okay? Early on? Oh my god, why are you doing that? How is that happening? Holy sh it, this is great. That's something I never would have done. Teach me, teach me,

teach me point of view. I'm always a little bit more lyric first, So that is like someone wos say something like I'd never say that, So no, let's try something else. Okay. So uh, honey, I'm good. You need something for the uh, for the album to make it, to have that one track. Was there a motivation in retrospect that you felt at that time that helped create a hit that you don't get just writing every day. No, it just came out. It could have been the third song.

You could have been the third one. The truth is, though, that a lot of people will not write a hundred and one because they just won't, because they don't have the effort. They believe that the people on the other end don't know what a hit is. No, they no, No,

it's it's strictly disciplined. I don't think that the average artist, especially songwriters, is what I preach is that if you write a hundred songs, you're gonna be way better off than if you wrote they're just just to be clear, are we talking about like being on the third three promenade? Are we're just talking about the experience getting your chops up or to you gotta constantly would shed to find you know the gold? Yeah? I think the people stop

way too early. Now. I come from song that's like my that's my sword that I bring. I'm not like extremely good looking. I'm not gonna make a video that people are gonna watch a million times because like, that guy's hot. So I knew that pretty early on. It was like my words are gonna be my thing. So maybe I care more about it than others, but I do think that was There's this saying, oh I was with um, I wrote a song with it. I think it's Red, Uh is it? Who's the country artist that's

like huge red something? Red Atkins? Right? You don't know Thomas Thomas rhet so his dad, Red Atkins. I wrote a song with him, and he wrote a song with the dad. It was great. How did that come to? The song is terrible, but the conversation was unbelievable. How did you get hooked up with him? Someone said he was in town and someone like met up with. My manager was like, yeah, you guys got like nine And I was like, dude, how do you have so many

number ones? And he's like it's usually about one out of every hundred. So it's like, you know, he goes, if you write five songs, you've got five great songs. If you write fifty songs, you've got two great songs. If you write a hundred songs, you've got one that's really good and that seems to be how this goes in my understanding. Okay, just to go back also a little bit slower. How often do you write songs? Every day?

Every day? Pretty much every day that I'm home that I'm not touring, Like today, I'm gonna leave here and gonna I've written three this week? Okay? So do you keep a notebook of phrases and other inspiration you do? Yeah? What kind of notes would you make? Um? Yeah, I have like a it's it's writing and it's to me, concepts are the things that are the hardest to find. So sometimes it's like a line, but more often than not, it's what is? What are we all experiencing? That? It is?

Just needs to be said? And anytime I see that or feel that, I'll just write that. Okay, can you give me two examples? Um for let's see, sure, what are here I got? Oh? I just saw you know this idea. I have an idea that I might try to write today about. You know, I lost my mom ten years ago and so I'm about to have another baby and that's gonna send me through a whole other grief tail spin because it's all how many children do you have. I have one girl right now, I'm about

to have another one. So the idea that around big events, that's when I miss you. That's a good concept. Let's do that. It's right there. Okay, okay, let's go back to the movie song. So you've written this song before you send it to him. Yeah, what is your belief in the song? Do you believe this is a specific winner? Uh? When I initially sent it to my manager, he cried and and said this is amazing, and then we cooled off on it because when you write a bunch sometimes

that's what happens. And uh so I sent it over knowing that it had had a spike in our our caring about it, but at the moment it was a little bit cool. Yeah, okay, how long before you sent it to your friend? Had you written it? Uh? Um? So, I think what happened is I sent it and then

that process took a while. Still so my yes, my manager liked it, and then he said he wanted it, and then it was like over a long period of time, and then probably about a month too later, things started to heat up like, oh my god, I think we're gonna use this and then we wanted to see how it reacted, and then we saw that it started to really react, and that's when it became a single. Okay, this was before or after the movie came out. After the movie okay, so you you sent it to him.

How long after that did the movie come out? Probably at least two or three months. Oh, that's pretty quick. It's fast. It was the end. It was near the end. Okay, so it's in the movie. How do you know it's reacting because you can see it on all the Spotify data, Like immediately it's getting the movie gets released everywhere, and then this song spikes everywhere that it gets released. Now, did your label specifically pitch it to Spotify and say this is a winner, it's gonna be in a movie.

They did, and he said put it in a good playlist. They saw it reacted. Okay, so now it's reacting. Tell me the next thing. It's reacting. Um so now I now I run around the world and do radio promo in different different countries and uh, and then we go on to today's show and so it's reacting. You have any idea how many streams it out on Spotify before you push the button I don't remember exactly, but millions, okay,

but not fifty million, not fifty millions okay. So also, you know, one of the things that's still kind of a silly way to do it, but when you go perform on Today's Show or any of these you know, Good Morning Americas something like that, the ones that are hits,

if they spike somewhere, they always do. So this one we did it, and then we saw immediately it was like the number one on pop and so on the iTunes, which is like an old way to look at it, but it's still just like, right, well, that's that's the demo for the Today Show. Yeah, so you're like, oh, this is this immediately hits or you get a call that like serious, XM just played it without any promo. You get these weird calls, you start to know what

a hit feels like. When you had a couple, you're like, ah, there's things that are outside of me being able to create that just start to happen. Um. And then so once we had that, so the S curve is your label, they said that, Okay, we have something here going back to you know, it's in the movie. It's reacting on Spotify. Then you're going around the world pitching it to radio to what level of success, not you know, discouraging levels

of success. I don't want to go too much further than like, what's when you've done it for as long as I have and you have, you know how hard it is to get the thing that makes people react. When you have the hit and it doesn't go gang as big as anything else, you're frustrated. So how many radio shows, radio stations did you visit? So we went to Mexico City, we went to Paris, we went to uh, Germany and Poland, and it did really well in UM Australia and it smashed in South Africa, and uh it's like,

you know, now we're back to the drawing. Okay, but you're mentioning all these foreign countries. To what degree? Were you working in the US? In the US hard running around two different you know. On Hottie Sea, I have so many relationships. We've had a couple of big successes at pop, but mostly it's been Hotta Sea has been in my format. Okay, when you're on the Today Show, where are you in the radio work? Are you basically starting?

Just starting? So we had the today show hit the iTunes thing goes crazy, and then that day we put up the Facebook thing and that starts to going, okay, tell me the story of PS twenty two. So I didn't know what it was, and I just go in there and I tried to do it. Something about kids singing don't give up on Me is especially impactful. So we started and I started to sing it, and they're really good. If you haven't got a chance see it,

they are amazing. So I just started to cry. So the fourth take is me being able to get through without crying because it's really sweet. Hearing like, I don't know, eight year old singing don't give up on Me, You're like shit. Um, so that thing starts to wait wait who set that up? That was the label? Yeah? And just because I'm interested, were the kids prepared? Did they

know the song? When you show him, this guy he's been doing this for a while and he's had you know, a bunch of other artists do it and they're all good, but for some reason, this one is the one that really like took it off. And then we got to bring them. We did see an n Heroes and we brought them all on stage in New York and it was how many kids. It's like sixty kids. So I thought, okay,

I've seen the videos. So in any event you record it, you see you're crying, so you must know we have something yeah, but not anything like okay, I think we have something like yeah, that's probably get like a hundred thousand views, will be great. So then it's done. How long after do you put it up on the internet. I think like the next day, okay, primarily on Facebook. So Facebook is where it really went nuts. These platforms are so crazy, I know, that's what trying to say.

So I think it's got like three million on YouTube and then it went sixty on because the share thing on Facebook was wild for it. UM. But that was like a big, big, big win. That was my one of my first big wind that didn't have anything to do with UM radio or or standard music videos. Okay, So after you had this giant success, did your label go back and pitch radio? UM? So this is the thing. It didn't do that great radio. But even after you could say, hey, I got sixty yes. So this is

what you're telling me. You're you're telling me that your radio research is telling you this is not a good song. How how loud do I have to scream about this? What are you insane? Who are you talking to? That? A song that when you played on TV everybody gets it, and then when you put a video up on Facebook, everybody buys it. What are you talking about? And they just beat against it? And then we couldn't get it

passed through. Okay. So if it has sixty million views on Facebook, how many uh streams does it now have on Spot? Question? Millions? Okay, So when did all this happen? It's been it happened. I think it's about a year ago. Okay, So let's go back to where we started. This is your outside the traditional system. It's not driven by radio. Well then what do you do? What's your viewpoint? Well, what's cool is and different from me is I've I've

now have it? It is a hit. It's undeniably. It's impacted my business, my bookings, all of the tickets, like everything. That's what I want to know. Yeah, everything gets pushed like a hit. Okay, so you have this success? Is a tour already planned? Tours are no? No, the tour is not planned yet. Okay, And are you turned into don't give up on me to it real quick. Do you book larger rooms because you think, hey, we're gonna get more people, because not necessarily we did. We kept

it pretty similar, but they did. They all did great, okay. And that tour was in what kind of rooms? So it went up to about you know, we hit three thousand in some places, okay, and how many dates? And what about the rest of the world? No, just us, just us? Yeah? And so when did you when of those dates stopped playing? That was we ended in last day? It was like August something, okay, So where does that

leave you? That leads me now getting taking some time for a new baby, which is great, and then just coming up with new music. Okay, And let's go back to you to the original dispoint of discussion, which is, if you're not someone pushed by the machine, and you're not someone on the Spotify top one, a top fifty, whatever and that kind of music, we're talking about both

the audience but primarily the performer the headspace. You have this giant success, okay, but everybody who was part of it was aware of it, but the people outside were completely unaware of it totally. So where does that leave you as an artist emotionally. Well, what's weird is that the life gets really long too. So It's what I found is it wasn't like it just ever went away. It's still doing weird things on the internet. It just like popped up on a hundred iTunes thing again today,

just like keeps it. It's good. It just like keeps going. It hits less longer. They just keep going, you know. It like sink the ship out of everything. It was on America's Top Talent on like the emotional moment, a song like don't give up on Me. I think we'll go for a really long time. It's like broad enough with a big enough message. Okay, but but I'm really interested in your headspace. Okay. In the old days, you would have a top ten hit every it would be

on all the radio stations. You get a little certain amount of TV play. Everyone would sort of be aware of it, and you could say, as the maker or someone involved in the business, we rang the bell. Okay, we maxed it out. We did not ring the bell. Okay, But the question, what do we know? The bell is not as loud as it used to bate totally, So where does this leave you? He said, Hey, listen, these people love me, they watched the video. I'm selling more tickets.

But you know, it's not like I'm getting all this press. It's not like, uh, you know, politicians are calling me up. It's like, uh, are you satisfied? You can't ever be satisfied. That's like, I mean, am I satisfied with? I definitely think that it could have been bigger? Um, But it also to me registered like I'm saying, I've been around hits and so it felt and feels like a hit. Let me put it. The only thing that I don't see is is major radio success. But it still feels

like a hit. So what's weird is like, what you're talking about is that this collective consciousness has been blown apart. So too many different people say there say the collective conscious was ten people. Right now, you blow that apart to four of those people, it was a massive so so to them and to private show people and to everybody else and all the stuff I'm crushing right now. It just means that the bell of the collective conscious is nearly impossible at this point. And are you okay

with that? Yeah? Because that means that I can go into I've now focused more on my niche. I think everybody has to see themselves as your own niche. Are you frustrated that other acts are bigger than you? Good question? Not really, not like h I think what's cool about the niche mindset is it allows you to be a little more like, what am I here to do? I'm not actually competing against you anymore because the chart is

kind of ridiculous. So let me go build my own thing that is so good and so uh create so much of a service to someone that they'd really miss me if I was gone. Okay, you mentioned privates. How many privates do you do? Um? You know, it varies. We usually what's great about those that they let you just like go out on a Saturday, play a gig and then come home be with your family, you know, especially over these seasons of uh baby and stuff. We'll

probably hit like twenty of those years. Okay, and let's say you do that, you fly out on the jet, you come back. How many people do you take uh about? Okay? So it's relevant. I mean traditionally corporate privates pay well, sure, but that's a that's a for one off that's pretty expensive to get out there it's expensive. There's a lot of people you know. To me, the idea of being in DJ's like that sounds great. How the hell do you do that? Oh yeah, I got a three backup singers.

Go to see a comedian who set out this is like the best gig of all time. Maybe you'd come with your own microphone, maybe you have a road man. Honestly, this is what is really difficult for me about getting outside of the country is to provide the show that we know we have to get to Australia. We've done it a couple of times or other place where things are reacting. The cost doesn't make any sense. So to what degree does the cost make it so you don't

even go? It's really hard. So where is it, you know, outside the United States? Where is your career? Man? We we like we played some shows in the Philippines. We do really well there. Australia has been great. We're trying to figure out a way to get over South Africa because you don't give up me was like huge on

the pop stations there. Um. But yeah, there's like so I think anyone probably in most businesses right now is trying to figure out where to spend their time because now all the jobs to some degree have been given back to the artist of like, well, on your social media, you could be the promo for this, you could be

the creative for this. You can like figure it all out yourself, and you're just a little bit overwhelmed of like, Okay, So then if the big bell is what we were all used to go for, if that's not happening, then there's like a thousand mini jobs that we could be doing. Where do we spend our freaking time? And I feel that way a little bit about countries outside of the U S as well. Okay, you mentioned CrowdSurf was the company that helped you tell me when they got involved

in what they did. They've been around since. Um, I think, I'm not exactly sure, but they're you know, they're through the label that's one of the services provides, and they help with like blowing up something that's already that's working. They did it. I don't exactly I know that they are, like they have a lot of different clients and they have they have a good sense of who would like the content that I gave, who would like that video?

So up where they posted it and then you know, they were really good at like going up to different places to get it posted, to get and get it shared. Did you set up were they any other uh, intermediaries? You don't remember exactly which one is now, Okay, So how much have you worked overseas? Um? You know we've done not a ton. You know we had initially we didn't get great love from like Radio one, even on

the big songs. They wouldn't go in London, right, Yeah, So okay, terms of your career, are you all in this is it you're gonna do it till you die? Or if it, you know, started going in a wrong direction and you're playing house concerts, would you say, Um, I'm not someone that even thinks that way, right, Like the guy, Yeah, like the guy that goes to the street and decides that that's a good place to start that you know, it's pretty let's go back. It's tough

to like face. So you grow up where I grew up in New York, New York City, No about our North New York City in the suburbs, what place called Monroe would Bury, Okay, and how many kids in the family. I had an older brother, what's doing he is a therapist. He lives out here too, okay, and he's a therapist back there. Um, no, he's he lives here. He's he's a therapist. And like Whittier. So from the time you're born, your parents, your father's a children's performer and obviously that's

his only job, that's his job. Okay. He was the middle class that we're talking about back then when it was impossible what what kind of family did he come from? That he became a children's performer, not that, but he created him and my mom, you know, they saw a need with my brother. They looked around and when he was like two or something and said, there's not that much good kids music, and so they just started writing

it and creating it. And he was working with a group called the Lime Lighters, which I think used to be friended by a guy named Glenn Yarboro if these names, yes, yes, So that when he when he got out, then my dad jumped in and was doing kind of the tail end what you're also being at the tail end of the of the line Lighters, playing casinos and other things

that weren't super lavish. And so from there it wasn't he was trying to figure out what he wanted to Just go back a little bit further, what kind of situation did he grow up? And he grew up in uh, you know, single mother and no real music around them. Okay, well, then how did he get into music? He got in through his his voices, unbelieving we got way better voice than I do, and he sang in choir and then he I was actually born in Los Angeles because him and my mom tried to do his solo thing here.

Then they tried to do the sole thing in Nashville, and they finally moved to New York and that's where they started to do kids stuff. Okay, did he go to college? Yeah? Where do you go to wreckers? Okay? So how long after Rutgers did he get in the Lime Lighters? That's a good I'm terrible at dates. I would imagine if did he have he didn't have six se us in he I know him saying to me when I turned thirty that he was like, imagine being where you're at and still not having any success and

how hard that would be. And I'm like, yeah, that's okay. So my point, did he have any day jobs between Rutgers and being in the limelighters. I don't think so. Okay, so he's always made it as a musician. Yeah, that was important for me too. How did he meet your mother? They met through the behind faith. I'm so I'm a behig. I don't have you ever heard of the high faith? Well, I remember that people lived next to me in college and seals and cross Yeah totally so. Um, they met

it up like the hot club. He went to Rutgers first and then he went to Beloit College and that's where they met. Okay, that's your mother was Beloit, Wisconsin and Wisconsin. Okay. How does your faith affect your music and outlook today? Um? Yeah, you know it really. I have a song on my last album called Wishy Paine, which is kind of like a cool idea comes from a high quote, which is this idea that you don't

grow without being put through struggle. So when you truly believe that, then it's kind of a grounded optimism because even when things are terrible or happening to you, that if the sense is that they're there to you know, build you into a different person, or to make you stronger, or to add something to your personal arsenal that you didn't have before. Uh, that's a grounded optimism to me. So on my mean greet, we would have everybody come in, about eighty people a night, and I would open and

I'd say, all right, I got the song. I wish your pain is what we're gonna do. I will share my deepest pain in my life, and I'll tell you what it's turned, what it gave to me. I lost my mother at really intense She's my rock, and uh, it gave me an empathy that I just didn't have. So I'm like an optimist. I'm like a puppy. I'll come try to cheer you up no matter what's going on.

But that without having experienced pain is actually obnoxious because somebody who's really going through it, you're telling me to cheer up. I think you need to get away from me. I kind of hate you. And so to be truly crushed and to be this puppy person, to be the quiet guy at the table for two years, just taking in understanding how others could feel this low all the time,

that was really important for me. Now to go around and be this optimist undeniably important piece to give to the guy that's gonna go do what I do, so I share that, and then people would and I'd be like, now, I dare you this is my meet and greet, I dare you to share with me the deepest thing has ever happened to you? That was difficult and what what you got from it? Okay? There eighty people, they are all eighty, go through not all of them, but a lot of them. And it was how long does that take?

An hour? Okay? And you do this for every show? Yeah, And this is more of me understanding, going back to the niche thing of like, oh man, I had never heard anyone do this. This is cool. I want to I want to continue to find reasons or situations like this that only I am doing and I love this, And that's what starts to build your little community out to why you know, there was a lady who came to you know, you're here these super fans, So she came to like twenty of the right and even me,

I'm there, I'm like, I'm not that good. Listen, I'm good. I create a really good experience that you're gonna have a good time. But she didn't share in any of them. And then on the on the last one she shared and she she bought the meat and great for everyone. That's a lot of money over two months, and she goes the deepest issue that happened to me was that my I had a little baby this year and he passed away about two months, and so me and my husband decided that we were gonna do whatever we need

to do to get through it. So we bought twenty of your tickets. And I can't ever seen one. And I was like, oh my god, unbelievable. And she's like, and I've learned so much, and I feel like I have a new family of all the friends that I've made, all the different shows. That's something that I've got. Who is holy shit, who my audience, It's so sweet. My audience are the people that, um, they're the happy friend

in the group. I don't know if you have one, but they are looking for the their like the optimist. They're the ones looking for the good in the situation. A lot of times they're spiritual. They're not necessarily like the hot girl, like the super hot girl that goes to the club and for a little while when you're coming up and you have different like you can see you go. You play these radio shows and you do

different things other people. You're like, Oh, this group of people over here is has this type of fan and my type, my fan is just very sincere and genuine and they love uh yeah, they love to look and the look for the good percentage male female, probably seventy female, but actually some male, honestly, so weirdly wide. And again this was something that for a second there, I'm like, am I not cool? Am I not cool? Because there's literally eight to eighty here and that's what people say.

But what I like to sing about is uh is life. I don't. I'm not singing just about um this like slim teenage area. I sing about my daughter a lot. I sing about life after death a lot. I sing about tons of just like universal life things. And so you know, I opened for a band called Trained for a while and I saw similar with them as well. Was that it's just this huge span, you know. Okay, so to what degree are you are practicing behind um? Pretty pretty intensely? You know? So I was about you.

You don't, uh, there's no drugs, there's no um no alcohol. Uh. You know, I said it on the view one time. It got like a whole thing. I didn't have sex, four marriage, I'm like a pretty and then the bigger thing. Those are like the rules. Just to get into the rules. So you have never had alcohol and you've never done drugs? I definitely I've had alcohol probably like five times. Um, but but my my practice, the way that I am is not that right. So yeah, and how about group worship? Yeah,

so there's uh where it's the happy yamiha. It is the Vihi holiday. Uh in these five days. I gave my daughter some presidents last night. Yes, we have an Yammi out party on Saturday that we're throwing. It's really cool. And uh I in general love creating space for your spirituality. I think it's really important no matter how you do. Now, is your wife a member of the faith? Yeah? Is that how you met her? I met her in music school. Okay, let's punt that for a second. Your mother died when

you were under what circumstances to dress cancer? Is your father found a new part Yes, yes, she's great. And are they married? They're married? Okay? Uh So you are growing up? You a good student? Bad student? Good? Okay? And are you someone who is a member of the group not a member of the group. Leader, follower, um leader. I was like a sports guy, super sports so, which

is kind of cool. I was talking with I just got to go play in the NBA All Star Game this morning, the celebrity events, and Uh, I brought my high school basketball guy and we were just talking about how that, how much that's affected me, how much I bring to business that that like sports thing like when crush kill. I remember when I opened for big acts, I would look out at the crowd and be like, this third of you has to come with me or

I've lost Why am I here? I'm not I'm not just here to like play, I need to amass a lot of you. So I would usually start by running into the crowd up and down, because some all sometimes with opening acts you can just like tune out and like you cannot tune me out. You either like me or hate me. And I'd run up and down, remember Red Rocks, Like running up and down the thing and being out of breath, but being like, Okay, now that I've got your attention, this is my best song. Okay,

Uh do any of the headliners resent that? I don't care? I mean there are stories of people saying, are you getting too much? Response, we're kicking you off the tour. Know what? The John Mayor has the best one. He says the opening act of three complains about the sound. The support tries to funk the headliner in the face, and the headliner says, you can't play louder than my hits. That is about the best description that I've seen. That's

really good. I haven't heard that before. So, okay, you go to public school school, Okay, you graduate from high school. Then what Then? I went to two years of acting at Binghamton, which is state in New York, and I quickly realized that acting is is saying other people's words, which is not what I want to do. I was writing songs in between, and that was what I was like, Yes, I want to write stuff. So then I moved out and went to Northbridge for music business and that was interesting.

I don't know, music business is such an interesting thing to try. And two things, he did you graduate? Okay, that's a very important thing, you know, Daniel Glass, he's got a labeled out class note. And I've told the story many times before in that when he was working at sp K. This was thirty years ago. This is just actually the introduction of Wilson Phillips. They played that weekend, but he said, you need three things to you work at SPK. You have to work have worked retail because

that's where the transaction takes place. And you have to really want to work for s p K. And you have to have graduated from college. So I cornered him after I go, listen, you know, I I graduated from college, but you know so many people in this business legends if not, you know, why do you have to graduate from college? He goes, Oh, it's not about what you learned shows you can complete something. And I found that as being definitive. That's like almost like your point about

a hundred songs pretty of FICI. So what was your experience of music business college? I don't want to trash talk. I think it was unfortunate timing trash talk I hit at the at napster time. I'm in college and you're you're reading, you're telling me how this is going, and everybody who's smart in the room is like, no, no, so what else he got? And and the person to do is teaching is like, I don't know, No one knows, okay, And you're going to college in California. Your father paying

for it? Yes, big deal, man, huge. You graduate from college, then what stay? Immediately go to third three Prominent, got my degree, walked across the stage, got my degree that already had all my stuff in my car, and just took off the cap and went straight to the street. Okay, you would not go onto the street previously I had. I was already doing it. Okay, that's what I want to know. So you come out to North red Jew We're going to be an actor. Now you come out

from music. You're going to music as a school because you know you want to make it as a musician. Yeah, it's like the closest thing I can think of. I get in there and I realize I'm probably not gonna be the guy that's writing contracts, Like, that's not what I'm about. I'm I'm a songwriter. Um, but you're still gonna make me do all this stuff. Okay, I don't remember any of that. They also made me take a UM. I was honestly the most ugly duckling at that school

because I can't. I'm not like a shredder. I'm not going to sit at the piano and while you with my piano skills. My my main skill is finding what's universal to all of us and putting that in a way that's simple enough for you to get beautifully. And that is a weird one when you're trying to get it right, because it just means that you can't hang in jazz class with everybody and you're not like brilliant

with contracts or or like my grades were. Okay, so I know that I always laughed at anyone who went to school with me. It's like that guy, you're giving it to that guy. Okay, that guy, come on. I saw his like recital one classical guitar. It was miserable, he was. I mean, I would go on Tuesday's were the worst day of my life because I'd have to go play Bach on this classic guitar and I would just butcher it, and the teacher would just you could see it on his face. He was so bummed out

with me every time. It was a weird time. I was misunderstood. Okay, did any of those relationships have they maintained and paid? My wife, I met my previous guitar player. Um, I met a bass player who I've worked with a lot. Okay, so a relationship wise, it's probably still worth it. Okay, your wife, what was she doing there? She was doing music. She wanted to do music industry, but for some reason they wouldn't let her in, and so she did a jazz vocal performance. But now she's she's going on to

be like, she's great. She's this awesome songwriter right now crushing shoot sank back up for like Selina Gomez and Kobe Kulay and has two around the world. She graduates from north Ridge. What did she do? She went the route of songwriting as well, and but it happened at the same time as me starting to take off. Its kind of okay. So she didn't have to get a day job, no, okay, And well she did until we were married. And what was her day job? What did she do? She was a nanny for like some dope

casting directors here and stuff. So okay. She's like a mover and a shaker. She's always making something happen. Okay. But the relationship started a north Ridge yeah, okay, So when did you start playing the third three promenade? It had to be probably around twenty some thirty six, about ten years ago, okay, prior to playing the third three promenade had you played out, Yeah, we're anywhere that anybody

would let me. So I would. I mean in high school, I put together there was some website that had all the open mics, and I would just like plot it out very methodically, and I would drive in my mom's mini events as many open mics as possible, and I would drive to New York City. I remember, you know one of my favorite stories is it's called the Sidewalk Cafe and you get down there and the only the only way that you can go as you take a number and that's the number that you perform. And I

got sixty four. That's like four and a half hours that terrible music. So this is what goes back to like discipline, and it's like it's not rocket science. If you're willing to just like take the barrage of four and a half hours of horrible music and then get up and do your best and have it not go good and then do it again, this is what it is. Okay, you play four and a half hours in what's the response. It's just so I'm sixty four. The only people left

their sixty sixty seven. You tell a joke and everybody's like, just play the song, dude, Like enough, we all want to get out of here. But I got enough. I got enough. There two not be afraid of singing to no one anytime I see anybody singing to no one, and that that ship pumps me up. If we're like out somewhere and there's a bar. We were in Florida recently, and we're all like walking down the strip and there's some bar where no one's in there and there's a

guy playing to no one. That is one of the most rebellious, badass moves that I think any musician can do, which is like I'm here no matter what. I'll do this no matter what. And that's what the street was for me. Can't But before we get to the street. Yeah, so you're playing these open mics in high school, you go to Binghamton. Are you still playing? So Binghamton, I'm playing for the drunk bus drop off, which is like they have these literally just school busses that will take

everybody out. They all get bombed, and then they dropped them back off to go back to their dorms, and me and this other guy would set up right by the drunk bus drop off and we were stars from about two a m. To four am. Al was the goal. You're just trying to work, You're just working with your thing. You're like, well, okay, is this working? Is this not working? Is this like terrible? What have I got here? So I was playing loosely bad situations, but but still just

like working on how am I? You know, I always say, how are you actually being of service? Because for the most part, when you start, the service is being given. The attention is being given to the person that's playing, and it takes a lot of work and craft to be able to switch that to where someone's watching you and they're getting from what you're doing, and that just takes hours and hours and hours and hours. Now, okay, when you're playing at the bus stop, guitar case open,

looking for change, yeah, but not hopeful. Okay, but you're going to school for acting? Yeah, so are you an actor or a musician? At that point I kind of already pretty quickly I could tell that I wasn't an actor, but I was there, so I okay, So you go there and when you come to l ah K, to what degree are you playing out? Before you go to the thirst promenade. I'm playing, Uh no one will book me and I have no money, So me and my roommate start booking the downstairs at the Viper Room, which

is I don't have ever been down there. It's about as big as this place exactly, very small, like low bar. So if you put people in there, you've done a great So this was us hustling on my Space finding people that we thought were cool enough and that might bring ten of their friends to come pay the twenty bucks it is to get in the Viper Room. So we're doing that. I have this little amp that's battery powered, so in my head, I'm like, I can take this

anywhere anywhere, playing stage create. It was a great amp, so that was what I would use at the street. And then if I thought that, like there was some gig, I think Frey was playing some charity thing at the Roxy, and I was like, those would be my fans. So when the line get um, I had zero shame. I just like set up outside of the line and I have my guitar and I'm like a mobile dude, just like put it down, start playing my stuff. And that was kind of how it went for a really long time.

So when you're playing outside the Roxy, what's the reaction? You know? Cool? Okay, are people you're giving you money? No? Really, it didn't happen until third year. Fourth year was like, oh, you're like, uh, you're starting to you start to see the switch of your You're really you're you're being able to give a service. And then when you stop, everybody come get the CD. Start like okay a little bit. So you're playing the Viper Room. Okay, you're playing the Roxy.

How long playing roy play outside of the very important? How long before you go to the Thirst Promenade all at the same time? Is this all happening at the exact Okay? So how often were you at the third Promenade while I was so? Probably I was going during college, so that was uh, weekends or whenever, and then once college ended then it was every day every day for how long? You usually Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday long like on Saturday and Sunday because you can they have that's

a whole game in itself. That's there's restrictions when you're allowed to actually be amplified and not amplified. It's kind of useless to not be amplified because people can't hear you and they just walk by. So I think those restrictions are lifted out some somewhere around like five pm on on weekdays and maybe a little bit earlier on Friday. But on Saturday it's all day Saturday Sunday, so I

would get there. You quickly realize that, like, there's great spots, So you want to be in front of McDonald's at two pm. That's the best spot, okay, But there must be somebody else who's figured that out. Yes, So you quickly see that even if you go there, you will get kind of gangstered out of that spot. So you then find the hierarchy and then it's first come, first served, so you get to the highest place you can get to without upsetting the whole dynamic of everything. So for me,

it was Forever twenty one. But to get in front of Forever twenty one at the right time, I meant I had to be there eight am. So I would wake up at seven on a Saturday, pack all the stuff and my mom's many event drive over there and just sit and at that point put all my CDs together until two and just read or hang out or just be okay and you can't leave, and the people below you knew they weren't good enough to take your spot. No,

nobody knows that. The only thing that I knew was there, Like the super High ones, those people have been there for years and years and years, and one of them was a duo um Flamenco guitar thing and they're just really they could be really loud. So if you did set up the rule of sixty ft, they would just set up sixty ft away from you and blow you away. Right,

So then where did the CD come from? The CD was this this small little thing called The World Is Yours that I made for no money with a friend, and it's got too much auto tune on it and I don't really like it. But I sold for a bunch of them. And how many did you sell? How many would you solid day? In the beginning three? Right? You would charge how much ten bucks? Which is a huge difference. I don't know how you do it anymore, to be honest, It might be dead because that's how

you made your money. That was actually how you can make some money. So if you went out there and you made seventy bucks and tips, that was a good day. But if those seventy were ten dollar sales. Now you're like talking, that's great. Now we're like running a little business here. So by the end I would usually the last year and a half of doing it, usually between Thursday, Friday, Saturday and no, no, you know, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, you usually sell two CDs. Really yeah, and did you

did you develop fans? Fans and then those people and then you're selling CDs and you're handing out flyers. Most of the people on the promadade at that point, which I assume similar is it's like foreign It's like you're on tour in one spot. Everybody. Everybody's coming to you. So you're selling CDs and they're you know, they're looking

you up on my Space at that point. And it was also an understand that you can't draw big enough crowd unless you have some sort of a drum So I would tell a drummer, I'll give you whatever I make. This is what business started to really come in because I started learning like, okay, so that's two grand first for Friday, Saturday and Sunday of gross and now you start taking everything away and you see where that actually lands. But well, if you're playing, what are the costs if

you're playing the first three prominent? Well, yeah, if if the cost of the CD, how much does it cost to actually get a CD made? And then how much do you have to pay somebody else to make the big beat that we give you the reach to get everybody there? So usually if I did two thousand and gross, I'd keep about and there were no taxes at that point, so that's not that's not too bad. And how big a crowd would you get? It just depends what the

best training that it was was. It's it's the same now as it was then that you're there for ten hours and you make all your money in twenty minutes over you know, you make the most of your money by getting one big thing of a big crowd. But if you could just go do that, then everybody just go do that. But you can't. You gotta be there all day because you don't know when that's gonna hit, when all the things are gonna be right and then boom, And now you know what they talk about is you

have to close the circle. Because if you can get the circle closed, that's what makes someone go like, oh, what's going on over there? And it becomes like mysterious and interesting. Now you can't see over. So now the crowds get bigger and bigger, and people start stepping on chairs, and it's just a hustle. It's always a hustle. What about going to the bathroom? Uh? Yeah, you you either

go to the bathroom after directly after. What's funny, So every two hours you have to move because there's good spots, and there's a guy with a clipboard who will come and make you move. And so it's funny is at the end, nearing the end of the even hour. So if you started two around three forty five, everybody starts looking at each other like who's gonna make the jump to try to go find the next best spot. There was a whole thing of people paying homeless people to

hold spots. It's a it's a grind. Anytime that you can actually make money somewhere, it's gonna get interesting. You know. Okay, could you ever get to the where you got squeezed out musical chairs there was nowhere to play? Yeah, that happens over when you do it for that long, there's just gonna be times that that happens. It was Honestly, I can't think of a better grad school for the music business. So what was going through your head? What

was the destination? Was there a destination? Not fully, but I just watched a father who and mother for that matter, Like, you do the thing first and then you get help. It doesn't just no one's gonna come give this to you. You create the train that's going and then your brain can't even comprehend how cool it will be or where you're gonna go, you just start doing it. That's what

that's the engine. Just because you're talking about flyers when you're playing the Third three Promenade, the flyers for other gigs, Yeah, the flyers for Oh now I actually can be first of three at the Roxy, which is like I don't have a five people or something that. So now they're letting someone will let me come open for them because they've heard me somehow. And it this point, do you believe you have any fan base or these are mostly foreigners or I don't think I have a fan base yet. Okay,

so you get discovered on the Third Street Promenade. How many years have you been playing there before you get discovered? Probably third year. My manager comes and so tell us the story. He comes and he sees me and he's like, you're good. Uh, but he's definitely questioning, like am I gonna is this where I'm getting my you're playing there? He just approaches, you know, he starts his company with a with a member of my my basketball team. He's in New York and he's moving out here and he's

got this guy, Josh, who was a middle agent. Uh. He gets them together and they start the company and they move out together. And one of the reasons Josh is down to move is because you know, he's got this friend that's in living in Hollywood, and so like cool, it's you know what, let's let's shift it. So then one day Josh goes like, you should go see my friend. He's playing on the street and uh, and Ben came out and we just started really working together. You know.

The first thing, the first thing he says, I'm not sure. No, yeah, first thing is definitely not sure. But he keeps coming out and he's like what he was most attracted to was the fact that I was just always there. He's like, I can work with that. You know, that's a piece that you can work with. As they said, as a manager,

you can't want it more than the act. And we both he's been someone that we both wanted equally and he hadn't had a success like we do now with anybody else, so he really really wanted it and we kind of bumbled our way through it and it was great. Well how long after you met him did you hook up with S Curve? Pretty? I mean, so he came

here three and then year four? All right, keep your head up, and that is what took us to S Curve and got us, you know, all up to get on the radio and we get that song w into movies and that did really great. So that was and and but the first thing that he did with me was he bought me a better rug and a better Uh So that's like, that's when you know you're really doing it with someone that you're like, oh, we're doing this together. I don't think he ever build me back

to the rug. Good. Look do you have paper with him? I mean, you know, that's what's so sweet. We I think we had one to start and I'm sure that's that's over. And he's my brother, he's my blood brother. And has anybody tried to poach you? No, they kind of know. Everybody kind of knows where a team we go together. So what goes through your head? A lot of people can't handle success. You've obviously had a lot of time actually performing, But when it starts to go,

are you getting freaked out? Are you say no, this is exactly what I want. I'm cool. Um No, I'm still just trying to not die because I know how fickle it is and how hard it is to get to a place. So I'm just trying to maximize every possible option in every situation. So what I liked when I tell the story to other people is that I had four years of figuring out fifteen minutes that was actually of service to the to the listener, right, So like, Okay,

this doesn't work. It doesn't work. This little cover of Maroon five works. This like Sunday Morning makes everybody stop. So I got that. Now I gotta find three songs that are my own that do that. So then I went like fifty songs trying to be like Sunday Morning, and one of those was keep your head up. So then when I have this type fifteen that will work on a stranger who's walking by, then when keep your head up came. I had this tight fifteen which was

extremely valuable. To walk into a radio programmer in Iowa that doesn't want to talk to you, doesn't need you, please, could you just get away from me? And I go like, just give me fifteen minutes? And I have this like tested fifteen minute thing. That would the same impulse of someone being like, you know what, dude, here's ten bucks or a CD. That's a very similar impulse to like, you know what, I think I'm putting it in. I

think I'm gonna put it in. And we went to every radio station twice around the whole country, all the hot seas stations, so you know, we put in a lot of work. I've had it like actually get to go in the radio. Everybody always asked like what was it like the first time you heard on the radio. I'm like, I've been to that place like four times. It was in St. Louis. It's not like, oh my god, it's like I know that guy. I've like been to his wife's freaking birthday party. I played for his daughter

who didn't care like this. It is not that exciting, but it's great. It's still great, But there's just like so much effort and and work that goes into getting it to to go. You know. Okay, so at this late date, how's your financial situation. We're doing great, okay. Yeah, And so in terms of twelve months, you have a kid with another on your way the way, I mean

a lot. You're talking about a lot of work. I'd presumed before you had children at all, you were not that available, no, for for the early season before kids, it would have been really hard to do that with kids. Say that, and your wife was understanding. She was really cool. I mean she was a she was a songwriter, and then she would also she did some tours, uh, without me as well. It's a hard line to find. I think that I definitely got lucky. I worked really hard

and put in a lot of effort. In the same way I think anybody that does a business, getting a bit getting distance between you and the ground where the business is like the hardest part. So you might uh. Tony Robbins says a thing about a life cycle. Business as a life cycle. So you're like in the beginning of your business like a baby that is an infant and will die unless you get up every night in the middle of the night and just all of your

resources go to keep this thing alive. And then you slowly go through the other stages of where you can get like a little more relaxed. Yeah, but you said it's a life. It sounds like there's death involved too. I do think there's death. Everything is death. No, no, what is Tony Robbins always says that it goes from uh infant to then there's like a teenager where you think that um that gross is profit, so you act

like wildly, you have no idea what you're doing. Then you have a young adult where you start to put systems into place to like help you actually keep this business going. Then you hit um is like max profit, where you're running it the best you could. And then you go to old age and then you go to like subsidized, and then you're like that did you go to a Tony Robbins course? Yes, I went to a business course. Wait wait, what was the inspiration to go, um? Well?

I think my manager was like, dude, he's doing this business course. I feel like it's probably good idea for us to do this. You know, I remember how expensive it was. It was like ten grand, right, best ten grand? I've ever spent in my life. Okay, how long was the seminar? It was one of those like five day things. And went to England. How many you went to England? How many people were there? Probably thousand, two thousand people.

So did you get any access to Tony Robbins? No, I'm playing his birthday party on Saturday, but I didn't have access to him at that point. Did he make your walk across the hot coals? We didn't. That wasn't cold. This was like a business one where I learned some of the most valuable things, just having not gone to straight business school. One of the best things I ever learned at that place was he put a cricket a cricket scoreboard up on the screen and he goes like,

does anybody know what this means? And we're all I have. I have no idea what a cricket scoreboard is. He goes, like, most people play the game of business like this. I swear to God, it's insane. You never believe it, but that's how this goes. And he goes, how do you even know what to do when you look at this? This is what accounting is. Then he put up a scoreboard of a baseball, and it was like the bottom of the fifth, there's a guy in second and third

you're down by you know what I mean. And I'm like, oh, He's like, this is what your business manager does. Your business manager is not supposed to tell you what to do. They're gonna give you the scoreboard. And then you walk up to the plate and you make the move. You swing for the fences. You're like, ship, we're close. I'm gonna bunt, We're gonna do this. That was so valuable. I'd never heard it put that way before. There was just like four things that were about that big to

me at that point. And what was the status of your career at that point? That was just before before on I'm good, I think, or right after okay, and if you had any continuing education with Tony ron Um no, I mean i've done what we've done two of them, I think. The one the first one we did was something called I think the Day with Destiny should when

to Australia do that. It's just good when you're when you're the one that's the engine of stuff, you gotta like go get psyched up sometimes, you know, I'm not like I don't do what every I've only done two of them, but they were both really, really impactful. So how do you manage the work life balance at this point in time? Man, it's not easy, but the kids help because they don't care so that I mean asked my daughter. She just like commands my attention. So once

I'm home, I'm pretty much home. There are seasons where it's a little bit more hard to do that, but for the most part, right now, Uh, like I said, you put systems into place, and there's a lot of people working that. Hopefully at six pm, don't you don't got to talk to me and uh, what's the goal at this point in time? The goal is to continue to triple down on what makes me unique. So you said,

you know, my jacket says reckless optimist. I think there's a lot of people that would love to hear songs about that that don't know yet. Well, this is kind of an extension to your father's business to some degree, you know. Um, I think the goal and the fun, if you can look at it as as a fun thing, is it's the wild West right now, and people that are uh, I don't know, people that are aggressive and inspired and interested in how to how to work this

new thing. There's like a lot of potential, you know, if you get if you get over like overstimulated with like oh my god, nothing is the same as it was. You can you can just be in depression all day long. But as someone that started as a street performer and is sitting next to you right now, I'm like, this isn't We're gonna be good. Do you consider the road

to be fun or work? No? The more like I would hope anybody if you work this hard at thirty six, most of the things that I'm doing, I'm like, I'm gonna go right with some of the best. I'm like, incredible writers. I get to I get to get into situations, you get a movie what Curious George called me. They're like,

do you want to do the theme song? I'm like, yes, that sounds awesome like my days that the work that I get to do is so fulfilling and interesting and fascinating that it's the work part is uh, just like running a business is hard and the weight that comes with that on your shoulders. But that's what you do that okay, we're talking about it's the wild West in the business and you have your niche are you just riding the pony or you say no, I want to get here and I want to figure out the zigarad

to get there. No, we gotta go away bigger. There's a lot more people that want that, like me, that have no idea who I am and how are you going to reach them? Um. Yeah, I think we're figuring it out. I think by continue to put out music that is that that hopefully no other the other people aren't putting out. Point of view wise, I think that it's a time, especially right now, where hope and optimism is actually like kind of in. I would think more

than other times I've felt it being someone who is myself. Okay, I can feel when it's like in and when it's not in, and I think we're all a little bit freaked out about how everything's going. And someone that brings, you know, with don't give up on me. I've been doing these videos. Well we'll just like roll up on people that are going through it and we'll sing directly

to them, sometimes with kids. And those videos have been going crazy online and everybody's into it, and so just who I am naturally is a good It's a good time for that so I really want to go. Do you believe that these successes in the New world or happy accidents or you can plan them both. You plan the best you can and then you have no It's like music, and this is kind of a dumb question about all ask in anyway, what do you think is the primary driver of your career at this point? Still

still primary song? Okay, I should ask question a little bit different once you have the product the song, what is most important Spotify, radio, Facebook, video, what do you think or really it's a combination of everything. So we're talking about dude, this is so confusing. I think that you do. It's like this weird thing of all of it, which then I'll send you into a tailspan. But also I think that you can't say it's the same for everyone.

So I've had big hits that are like I have a song fresh Eyes that was like not a hit on the radio, it's million plays on Spotify and it is a super it's a hit. So like, I think we have to be careful of what the driver is for this one and then follow where that where it's telling you to go and maximize in that area for each one. Okay, you're a happy optimist. To what degree are you fearful of doing something that might alienate your audience less now than ever? So what was it like before?

Before I was worried that I was, that I was gonna be cheesy. I was really overly worried that, um, I would turn someone off by being just my, my, the true vibe that I am. And the incredible book called This Is Marketing by Seth Godin. Do you know Seth Godin? How do you email with him? Yesterday? God? That guy? Is he gonna come on here? Well? You know he Well he's in New York. I didn't even he is fantastic. He has a book called This Is Marketing,

and and uh he had. I was listening to the audiobook and I get pulling over to write the right notes down. One of them was, Um, you really gotta be okay with telling a large group of the country this is not for you. When you do that, when you fully say this is not for you, who it's for they go, oh, my God, that's my guy. And you're not like denying people. You're just by who you are,

being like, this is who I am. And if if I like concretely say that, then some people inevitably will be like, you know it's not for you, okay, but we live in a you know, complicated error. So just you know, this may not fit with your image. But if you say, would you be fearful of making a political endorsement for fear that it might alienate part of your audience? Um? Yeah, I don't do any as of a high You're not on the line with any political party, so I don't do any police, but I don't like

register as someone. I don't play anything. He's got an offer for a convention, and I was like, you know, based on your faith, faith, okay, but to what degree you're in the show or you're doing press, would you be worried about saying something that might be seen as unpopular? Not a lot, I don't. I don't think about that very much. Okay. Terms of social media, to what degree you personally post on social media? All of them? No? You but you yourself? How much your day has spent, God,

it's a lot, man. Well that's why I'm so. I just came from a two hour session where I, like, you know, figuring out what it is we're gonna post, and then I sit and write all the captions for it, and then that's like the steady stream that I look at and see and we create a person on the payroll or and then uh, and then you mix that in with stuff that just happens that I love, I mean, and my daughter or whatever what else is going on. Then it's just like, throw up, what's the most powerful

platform for your career? I have the most follows on YouTube? Uh, then comes Facebook and then Instagram. There's so much work to be done, good God, and they all need different you know, like again if you get, if you get, you can go down a spiral in your brain where you're like, this is insanity. But for me, what happened was I started to realize that, like, I love what's in my heart getting to your heart, and I genuinely

if that's a caption, I still really like that. So the album have exploded for me this year of like what the goal it used to be? You do all this work to create one thing and then you give it to everybody at one moment, and then everybody likes that one thing, and that doesn't seem to be the most effective way right now to get from what's in me to you. There's like you have to kind of blow it up and be like, it's all of the album.

The whole thing is the album. The album artwork is that makes the questions you do have an album at all? Or just constantly put out material you could do? You know? To me, it's that I wrote a hundred you want to hear some of them, but I got a lot here. What you post on YouTube, some of these originals that are not on the album. Yeah, I think that, you know, that's a good question. We're looking at, you know, what

exactly it looks like moving forward? I don't know. I do think that there's something about a collection of songs can be how you're feeling at that moment, and it's kind of nice to put them all together, but not important. Okay, and you have people working for you posting your words. But do you interact with your fans on social media? Oh yeah, totally. I mean everybody, and we're also addicted to it. I'm on Instagram, on Facebook responding. I have

something called Community, which is the texting service. I was on that really early, and I'll do stuff on Community where I'll be like, uh, check it out. I am playing a show in Minneapolis and there's Duncan Donuts down the street. If you're there in the next twenty five minutes, I'll take a picture and hang with everybody. How I've

proad about eight of those. Those are really fun. And you shut down Dunkan Donuts, and it's like we have videos on all my socials of like, oh my god, oh shit, the people have dunking donuts like you got a lot of this is insane And if you had any bad experience, who's interacting with the po No, especially my group of fans are usually really sweet. Okay, Andy, this is a big thing. You're go on forever. Such an interesting dude to me, this is a really full

circle moment. I've been reading you. You've been someone in my life that has been very like because you you are coming from honesty and truth. Usually that's the that seems like the highest thing for you. Uh, that resonates with me and I have had I remember reading literally reading your letter sitting on the little sidewalk as a street performer. So it is wonderful to have a conversation with you, my friend. Well, I can't see this is audio.

I'm smiling on that note until next time. This is the Bob Left Sets podcast,