Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftstets Podcast. My guest today is a Lindas Cigara of Hooray for the riff Raff. Alinda is Hooray for the riff Raff. Basically you and a roving cast of characters or is it a band?
It's both. It's definitely my project, it's my songwriting, but I really, you know, I'm in it for the band feeling. I'm in it for the family of the band. So even though it is a rotating cast of characters throughout the years, I definitely get attached to the bands of certain records.
Okay, So presently, how many members in the band.
Altogether? There's four of us, sometimes five when I'm lucky.
Okay, let's start with the four. How long have the same four been together? Uh?
They joined for this record, So we've been all playing together since February.
Okay, so every record might be a new band.
Yeah, I think. You know, for a while I was rolling with the same crew of people. But then with moving around, you know, and also just like life changes that the transition of late twenties into early thirties into pandemic times was very interesting with having band members. So everyone goes through like huge life changes. So I would love to hold onto this band as long as possible. I'd love to continue playing with them for next record too.
Okay, let's break this down. Tell me about the transition from twenties to thirties.
Well, people start having kids. I'm not, but you know, sometimes your drummer does, or a bassist or you know, people start just having different lifestyles. So I thought that was a really interesting time to be a semi hustling touring musician in a van.
Okay, since not everybody is familiar with you, how old.
Are you today, I'm thirty seven.
Oh, you look so much younger. So you say, you know, I'm older than you are, And I find every decade, especially as you get older, it's really quite a transition. Have you find a straight evolution or can you sympathize and identify with them going from their twenties to their thirties.
Oh, I can definitely sympathize. I feel like, you know, my transitions have been artistic for sure. I feel like I don't really have this urge to start a family per se in the typical sense of the word. But I definitely feel like I'm looking for more stability. I'm looking for more Also when it comes to creating art, I'm looking for something that feels more fresh to me, or I guess realer. I'm trying to get to this root feeling of making something that feels very true to me.
So I guess that's my That's the track that I'm on as I get older.
When you say about having a family that is something, just go a little deeper on that.
Well, I've always wanted a family in a certain sense since I was a kid. I grew up feeling very out of place, very a bit like an alien, like I was drop. I grew up in the Bronx. I'm from a Puerto Rican family, and I was interested in things that weren't necessarily what is typical like at the time for a kid like me, and I felt very
out of place. So I went to music, to going to live shows, and then eventually to making a band because I wanted to feel like I was a part of something and I had people to depend on and people that I was getting vulnerable with.
You know.
I just didn't want to go through this life alone. And I never felt that urge to become a mother or to you know, to get married or something. So songwriting and creating a band is a way that I put those It's a place for those feelings.
I think, let's go back to growing up in the Bronx. You know, the Box has been through a lot of transitions in the seventies and eighties, or a lot of movies about the South Bronx. Tell us about growing up in the Bronx. It was.
It was a very friendly neighborhood for me to grow up in. I feel really lucky. It was pretty old school. Everybody talked to each other, a lot of older people and families, a lot of working class people, a lot of like union talk. It felt Now that I look back, it feels very special. It feels like something I don't really see that much anymore, you know, as in terms
of neighborhood and neighbors communicating with each other. But at the same time, I felt like it was horribly boring and all I wanted to do was be in the Lower east Side because I heard that that's where the weirdos were. I started listening to punk music and I heard that everybody who was a punk was in the Lower east Side. So I would take the train and it would take me about two hours, and I loved every second of it because I just wanted to be like where that action was.
Okay? You know, on one hand, you have the Rolling Stone song Miss You, which they now sing live. I just saw and they left this line out. You know, there's some Puerto Rican girls just dying to meet you, okay, and then in New York, you know, uh, there's just there's been racism. You know. What was it like growing up being a Puerto Rican kid in the Bronx.
Well, I feel like for me, I was really confused because I was constantly told that I didn't act like what a Puerto Rican kid or girl was supposed to act. Like the idea of what that was was Jlo, you know, like or before her it was West Side Story. There just like wasn't a lot of representation or a lot of that in the media that I understood, you know,
that I could see. So I just was constantly told that I wasn't doing you know, whatever I am correctly, and that was from kids that weren't Puerto Rican that you know, or kids that were So I guess my experience of it was just constantly feeling like Okay, I guess I'm doing everything wrong, and this is just naturally the way I am and the things that I'm interested in.
You know, as I got older and when I made my record in twenty seventeen, The Navigator, I started doing more research into just Puerto Rican activism and I found out about the Young Lords, and that's when everything starting started to make sense to me. You know, here's like these really inspired and serious intellectual Puerto Rican women and men, like all in their twenties, who were all into revolution
and they were into revolutionary art and community activism. And suddenly all these things that people told me, I'm like, that's not true. I come from these from these people very obviously, you know, like these are my ancestors in a way, or like my elders.
You know, what do your parents do for a living?
My mother was, she actually worked for Giuliani. She was, Yeah, she was the deputy mayor for Rudolph Giuliani for both of his terms. And my dad, well, whoa whoa, whoa, whoa woah.
Not everybody's familiar, including myself. Is the deputy mayor an appointed position.
Elected position? No, well actually appointed, yeah, it's not elected. And I think there are four.
That was my next question.
Okay, yeah, yeah, wait wait wait, wait, wait.
Wait, your mother isn't walking down the street and all of a sudden, Juliani says, oh you I want you. You have to climb the ladder to get to that job. So what did she do to ultimately get that gig?
To be honest, I don't know. I didn't grow up with her. I grew up with my with my aunt, that's actually my dad's sister, and she's who raised me. So my relationship with my mother is very strained. You know. I grew up seeing her a couple of times a year, or I would live with her for a stint in elementary school, and then I would get sent back to my aunt. You know. It was a lot of where am I gonna end up? And my aunt always being the person who was like, I will take a Linda,
you know. So yeah, so the relationship is it remains mysterious for me. It's like one of the big mysteries in my life.
Okay, were your parents ever married? Yes? And you have brothers and sisters? Yeah?
I have a brother. I have an older brother.
And did they share the same parents?
Yeah?
And when you were growing up with your aunt? Who was he living with?
He was with my dad.
Okay, so do you ever remember living under the same roof with both your parents and your brother.
In elementary school, like in kindergarten and first grade, which is when she was first she first got her appointment. You know, I don't know how you'd say it, right, So I think that there was a bit of like, let's, you know, look like a normal family. She had already split up with my dad though, so there was this brief period of living under the same roof, but my aunt still being our caretaker, and that ended pretty quickly.
Okay. And what did your father do for a living.
He was a music teacher at a public school and then he became vice principal.
Okay, now you say your Puerto Rican heritage? How many generations was your family in New York?
My aunt and dad were both born in Puerto Rico, but they grew up here, so I'm second.
Okay, So what's your relationship with your mother today?
Uh, there isn't one, really, I'm just kinda yeah, there there isn't one. It's it's become more. I don't know, it's one that I'm working through but the older I get, the more it becomes you know, I'm not waiting for some kind of change. It's more of accepting this is the story of us, and I'm happy with the life that I have.
You know, what do you speculate happened such that you lived with your aunt as opposed to your biological mother.
I'm not sure. I mean, honestly, that was a question that was asked a lot of me when I was a kid, and I would always be a little bit confused about how to answer. When I was younger, I would give a very you know, generous answer of well, and I do think that this is still true. You know, my mother is of a generation where you really had to choose between being a mother or being a professional, and it seemed like those two things were very in
conflict with each other. So I think that being a professional person was really where her heart was and where her passion was, and I don't think that motherhood was where she was called, you know which, you know, as I get older, it definitely makes sense for me. This idea of becoming a mother is a very big deal
to me. Like I would not want to do it unless I was completely ready and ready to put my obsession with songwriting a little bit to the side, you know, because I don't I'm so afraid that I wouldn't be able to do it well. I see other people juggle it just perfectly or you know, beautifully. But for me, I've learned from being a kid that was like, well, I you know what's going on here?
So, yeah, okay, what is your mother doing now?
I don't know, not sure.
You were living with your aunt. Yeah, brother was living with his father, also your father. Why were the two of you living in different locations.
I think it was just easier for my dad to handle, you know. He Yeah, I don't know. I mean I grew up with my aunt and uncle and it was like a really stable household. So I felt really lucky. And my brother grew up with my dad and it seemed like that worked out really well. So I never really asked a lot of questions about it because I was really happy with staying with them.
Okay, and then when your brother was living with your father and you're living with his sister and her husband, how much contact are you having with the father and the brother.
Oh, I would see them a lot. We would do we would do these big trips every summer when we were out of school, where we would all drive from New York to Florida together because we had family down there. So we would do big trips like that and like be together all summer. Or I would see my dad I don't know, like every other week or something and talk to him on the phone a lot. So that was a pretty you know, in contact relationship.
Okay, your aunt and your uncle, did they have any of their own kids?
Yeah? They had two, two daughters that are my older cousins, but kind of like my older sisters. They were all they're like in their fifties now.
Okay, so they were good fifteen odd years older than you.
Yeah. Yeah, So you know, this decision to take on a new kid, you know, when you're done raising your own. I mean, as I get older, it's something I also think about that it was such a big decision to make and they did, and I never felt any type of I don't know, it was like they made that decision and they never looked back, and it was like, I'm their kid.
And what did they do for a living?
My uncle worked in the housing project that we lived in. He would do maintenance and stuff like that. And then before that he was a construction worker, but he got hurt on the job at one point. So just jobs like that.
And your aunt worked in the home. Yeah, you know, I have to ask, is it ignorant suburbanite? One thinks of bronx and one thinks of projects, and one thinks of crime and danger. Is that an accurate or a fantasy thought about it?
I mean, I think it's both. It's definitely accurate, and also at the same time, there's a lot there is normalcy, you know. I think people get used to the environment that they're in and you learn to watch out for certain things, and you also learn to acknowledge Yeah, there are people who are addicted to drugs and they're standing outside the building, but also they're just people, you know.
And I think, especially growing up in New York, everybody that I was growing up around was just very matter of fact of here are the dangers, and here is you can maneuver them. But at the same time, I also feel like it was a really like great neighborhood. You know, I could walk at night by myself and never feel nervous, and I could go there were like a lot of really great parks and stuff like that. So in that way, I mean, especially when I moved to New Orleans, I felt like I was naive about,
you know, certain dangers and stuff. I felt really independent when I was growing up in New York and.
The neighborhood you grew up in. Was that a mixed neighborhood race wise mostly Puerto Rican? What was it like?
It was really mixed. It was Irish for sure, definitely Jewish population. Yeah, also like Middle Eastern. I felt like there were people from every part of the world.
Okay, you're going to school. You good student, bad student, have friends, don't have friends.
I was a good student in certain ways. I was really obsessed with poetry early on. In English class in like you know classes that have a lot of conversation, discussion stuff about the arts, I was all in. And when it came to subjects like math and science, I was just I couldn't do it. I just felt like I couldn't. I don't know, I couldn't handle the pressure of it or something. And I was a good student
really until I got into high school. Pretty quickly. Into high school is when I started making friends and hanging out more like in the Lower East side scene, and that was when most of my friends were outside of my school, and I just started really questioning this kind of track I was on. I started questioning, like, would I really ever be able to go to college? What
kind of college could I really afford? Anyway, it was a lot of these existential questionings of this track that everybody was telling me I should be on.
You know, Okay, you're obviously there's a few years of gone by, but you're wise and you have insight into the landscape. Did you have friends that felt the same way or did you feel kind of you were out of place and you had these thoughts and there were people really you could relate to you or you couldn't relate to them.
I feel really lucky to have found the punk scene when I did, because I definitely felt like I wasn't alone. And also, you know, in my freshman year, I pretty much in the first week of school, if I remember correctly, was nine to eleven, and that experience really changed all of my generation at the time, you know, and I felt really lucky to well, I'd feel really lucky now to have gone through such an intense historic moment with other kids that were like minded that were. I don't know.
I just I didn't feel alone, you know, during it, and I think if I had, it would have been really bad for me.
So how did you find out about THEE And where were you when the planes hit the towers.
I was in art class and my somebody came in and westbood in my teacher's ear and she yelled holy shit or like oh shit or something like that. It was like this moment of you see your teacher break the facade for a second. And what I remember after that was just pretty much chaos, like kids immediately needing to find out if their parents are okay, just total madness in the school, them trying to basically get all of us out and finding out how we can get home.
You know. I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember the chaotic feeling, and none of us have cell phones obviously at the time. And I remember going into one office and there being a little TV and it playing on the TV. It I didn't recognize at that age how big of a shift it was for me to see this bubble of normalcy get popped like that, you know, at the time, because I was, you know, fourteen going on fifteen, I was just like, Wow, something's
happen happening. Life has been so boring, and now something is happening. But it did create just a really different view of, you know, what is possible, and it was really interesting to be so young and to watch people deal with grief in different ways, and to watch certain people want revenge, and you know, to just really get this look outside of just me and my personal life
and my home. Suddenly I was looking out at the world and at our country, and that was the first time I really started to do that.
Okay, so you say you were a freshman in high school and you started getting into the punk scene. How did you get into the punk scene.
It started off with pretty like mainstream bands, you know, like I went to go see Wheezer or I I I'm trying to think of some other bands, like the band Rancid. You know, there are definitely bands that you hear of, and then it leads you to smaller and smaller bands and more local bands. You go to a show because you bought a CD that looked cool in Tower Records, and then you go to the show and somebody hands you a flyer and it's like handwritten photocopied
and you're like, what is this? I got to go to this, you know, it was like this treasure map of finding out the deeper and deeper road where you could make more friends and go see a band that nobody had ever heard of because like they're playing out of a basement or something like that. It became like a reason for me to live. Really, all of a sudden, I was like, this is what I'm supposed to do.
You know, Okay, I live through this myself, and I certainly go on to see a lot of bands in nowhere spots. Yeah, were you so young that it was just so exciting that you said, well, you know, these people really aren't that good, but I'm here and this is something.
Oh yeah. I didn't care if anybody was good. I just loved I mean, probably if they were, you know, quote unquote bad, I probably liked it more because I was just really excited. I think at that age, I didn't even want to be entertained, and I didn't even want to really be blown away by artistry. I mostly wanted to feel like there was no separation between me
and the band. I wanted to feel like we could become friends, right after this, and that anyone in the room was actually capable of doing what the band was doing. We were all just like shifting our positions for temporarily between like audience and performer or something. So it was all about being connected.
Okay, let's just go a little bit lower. You're a girl, you're going on a freshman year in high school. Yeah, how do you literally hear punk? Do you have a friend say, oh, you have to listen to this record, or you hear something on the radio, or were you a someone who bought a lot of records to begin with? How did you literally discover punk?
I bought a lot of CDs, especially on those drives to Florida. You know, as I got older, I was feeling more rebellious and more just confused and feeling less like a happy, go lucky kid, and I wanted to buy as many CDs as I could and listen on my headphones in the car for that really long drive to Florida. And I remember buying a Dead Kennedy CD simply because it looked cool, you know, And that was
my first experience. And then after that, I get a Bikini Kill CD because it looks cool and they're girls, you know, instead, it's like this, like, yeah, that's how it started. Was I see something that catches my eye, and then I go to the next band, and then this band mentions a band in their thank yous or something like that. It felt like piecing together little like tips that were left behind.
Okay, at the time, did you literally have to go Manhattan to see these acts or was there a scene in the Bronx where you grew up.
If there was, I didn't know about it. I definitely think it's different now. You know, genres are so different now in a way that I'm really excited about. At the time, it felt very clear that if you listened to hip hop, you could not listen to punk. And if you dressed a certain way, you were over here, and if you dressed this way, then you're over here. So it felt like in my neighborhood, everybody loved hip
hop and that's what people were listening to. So I didn't know of a scene in the Bronx, if there was one. So it really felt like the Lower East Side was the place to be.
And were you out there alone or did you have a compatriot or what?
I started going alone, you know, to those earlier shows, and then in high school, I did make a couple of friends that there was a place that we would all gather, you know, we just kids just like to sit outside and like smoke cigarettes and talk shit with each other. So I started making friends that way, not through classes or anything. And I started gathering a couple of friends who would want to go to shows. And then at the shows you meet other people, and so that's how it started.
Let's be point blank. Yeah, a woman goes alone to a show is different from a man going alone to a sho show, Amica, or a boy can go be one hundred percent alone. If you are a woman going to show, a guy's going to come up and talk to you. If not, twenty guys, what was it your experience?
Like, it really wasn't that It was not that I uh yeah, I felt pretty good, honestly. I mean it was all like other teenage kids, you know, so I never really felt any creepiness. I was going to mostly to shows at this place called ABC No Rio, and that was really good because it was pretty much designed for younger kids. It was it was a matinee show, so it started at like three o'clock and ended at like six, you know, and it was like five dollars, so I felt, really, I don't know, it was a lot more.
Not like.
I mean, everybody was drinking and stuff, but there was not a lot of like creepy be feelings or feelings of predatory stuff going on. So I feel lucky in that way.
Did your and uncle have any idea what you were doing? Did they ever set limits or did they just trust you?
They definitely tried to set limits, you know. At first it was I think also my aunt really was happy that I was finding something that I was excited about, and she wasn't really intimidated by music, and she didn't seem to like distrust it. You know. She was happy that I was excited about going to shows and I wasn't coming home drunk or anything. You know. It was
like I was pretty good at coming home. And then as I got older, I would say into sixteen and seventeen was when it started to be really noticeable that, you know, I was like dropping out of school and things were just kind of like spiraling into a chaos that my aunt couldn't really handle. She would really try to keep track of me and try to track me down when I would be coming home late and stuff like that, that there was only really so much that they could do.
Tell me about dropping out of school.
I mean, I was just doing bad and I was So it's really hard sometimes to tap into the stubborn brain of like a sixteen or seventeen year old at this point in my life because there's so much that like I don't relate to now, and that being this very very confident belief that there was just something out there for me that I was going to find that
nobody else could see. And it was just like truth to me, Like nobody could convince me that my life was going to be shit because of Now, if I had a kid at that age, it'd be like, what is your plan, you know? And my big plan was like, well, I'm going to become a squatter and I'm gonna, you know, go ride freight trains and I'm going to learn how to live outside of society and it's going to be great.
Like that was just the life track that I was learning about from different people I was meeting in the Lower East Side, and it seemed so yeah, factual to me. So that was where my head was at.
Okay, is it one day you say I can't take this anymore, or you drop out, or you can't wait till you turn sixteen, or you're thinking it about six months? Are your aunt and uncle involved? How does it actually come to be that you drop out?
It was, you know, a lot of trouble at school, the school talking to us, and then it's like, okay, let's try this different public school. And then I try a different public school, and then that school it's like guidance counselor gets involved. We think you have so much promise what's going on? And then it's like, okay, let's go to this third school where like kids go to
when they're on the verge of dropping out. And then eventually when I got to that school, it was like, let's okay, let's talk seriously about me just getting my ged, you know. And it was a countdown for me of Okay, I'm gonna turn seventeen and I'm going to find a way to get out of here. And my mind was very focused on I'm I'm not doing anybody any favors
by sticking around, you know. I felt very much like I'm stressing out my family and they don't see this thing that I see for myself, this future that I see for myself. So I'm just gonna have to go do it. And then once I do it, I'll prove to them that, you know, they can relax. They'll see that I'm okay. It's like it's a theme that I
hear in a lot of folk songs. At once. I left this idea of like I have to go, I can't go home this way, like I'll I'll show you by doing it, and you'll see that what I saw for myself was real. You know, did you get your ged I didn't.
Now, okay, you drop out. You have this dream of being a squatter going on the rails, what do you actually do?
I actually do that. I've become a squatter. I start writing for trains with some friends. I start playing on the street eventually, because at first it was just spare changing and asking for money on the street, which can be just so like, you know, mind numbing and so just can drive you crazy. So I felt lucky when I started meeting kids that were playing on the street, specifically when I went to New Orleans.
Wait wait, let's let's before we get to New Orleans. Tell meybe is riding freight tree in something you did once or something you did a few times, and what was that.
Like, I did it for about two years. It was and there were very different experiences throughout doing it, because I feel like it can get shaped so much by who you're with or if you're alone. You know, that's something I never did alone. I was way too scared. So there are a lot of diferent experiences. Sometimes me and another young woman I was traveling with, or me
and a band. When I finally started my first band that was based in New Orleans, there were all other hobo kids, uh or before I started playing music, and it was just like me and a bunch of guys that I knew. That was kind of like a shitty vibe, you know, it was. It was so many different things. Sometimes it was extremely hard, and sometimes it was like the biggest high I've ever had of feeling like wow,
I've done it. I've like escaped the matrix to use like, you know, a tired metaphor like here I am looking at these tiny towns as we like whiz by them at night, and just this feeling of like I escaped America, like I am on the outside and I don't have to like function in this system anymore.
Okay. You know the old myth and movie thing is the train is moving slowly and you run onto the train and you ride it far away and then it stops you get off. What was it actually like.
Well, some people can do that, they have very good upper body strength. For someone like me, it was a lot more of you know, you wait until the train is stopped. You like start to learn about, like you know, how long people, how long engineers and conductors are on call, and you learn that it's like an eight hour shift, so you start to you know, just figure out when
a train has stopped. It's a lot of this is like really before the Internet, so a lot of like word of mouth, a lot of people telling you if you want to go he if you want to go west to this town, like be in this specific spot. A lot of like writing down directions and going through
holes in the fence and stuff. It was like extremely detailed and really like it has to be your whole life, you know, because you get to a spot sometimes you're waiting for like two days for a train to arrive, and you have all these different ideas of knowing Okay, this has like a Freddy on the back. It's like a blinking light. It means it's going somewhere. You watch the conductor and the engineer get off, You're like, okay, we have this amount of time probably before somebody else
comes on. So a lot of that, a lot of like nerd stuff that I really loved. But I only tried to get on when it was moving. I'd say maybe twice, and it was terrifying. At one point I got thrown off. So I definitely knew, like when not to temp fate.
Okay, if you're starting in New York, yeah, how far would you take the train?
Well, in New York it was very difficult. We like went to New Jersey and that was a terrible experience to try to get out of there. We ended up going to Buffalo. That was a really scary experience. So that was hard. What I did, you know, It wasn't like I solely rode trains, Like I took the Chinatown bus to Philly, and from Philly is a very much easier place to get a train or than at some point I would hitchhike, which I hated doing. That was like the that I felt like was the most dangerous
of course. So so yeah, getting out of New York is a shit show. All it all transits.
So how far are you know Philadelphia? You know, less than two hours away or so? How far west or south did you actually get?
Well, I've written trains like basically on the east coast. It was mostly the southeast, and I also did the whole top half of the country, so across Montana, which is so beautiful and like North Dakota and stuff, and then also a lot down up and down the West coast all over the place, because that is just like it was so beautiful and it was really a lot easier to do, and a lot of the southeast. So I never did really the I never did the lower
half of the country, which I regret. And I did a little bit of going through the Midwest until I reached Nebraska, which I talk about in a song. And then we had to like take a greyhound, which was always like when you took a greyhound, it was like the biggest humiliation. It was like such defeat that you you couldn't figure it out or something, you know, So it was like the walk of a certain type of walk of shame, and.
You were doing what for money to you know, eat.
A lot of spare changing at first, a lot of like what we would call drug studies, where people would like ask you about your life on the street. They would ask you if you did certain drugs or you know, people trying to like get I guess, like focus group type information. And also we would eat at like a lot of Christian feedings. We would do a lot of dumpster diving. But this was all before I started playing music on the street, which was when life got a lot better.
Okay, So in this long history, you know, punk is a DIY movement. At what point do you say, hey, I can do this.
I don't know. I think probably when I there was something when I turned sixteen, you know, I won a poetry contest, and I think that really did something for my confidence as a writer. And even though I wasn't sure, I had no idea that I could like play music because I tried to and I felt like I failed horribly. That was my perception at the time. But writing poetry felt really like something I was good at, and I got really obsessed with beat poetry. I was so into
Alan Ginsburg. I just like thought about him all the time and read him all the time, and street poetry really spoke to me, So that was that was really the beginning. Is like that type of poetry mixed with going to shows. It felt like, Okay, I think there's a place for me here somewhere, but I'm not sure where it is.
So how did you find it?
I think through desperation, honestly, you know, the desperation at first of really needing like camaraderie, really needing people to be my friend and to feel confused with me and to feel angry with me. I was really if I could have hung out, Like hanging out was just like the best drug to me. I wanted to hang out
all day long. So this feeling of like I need friends, this isn't like a light thing for me, you know, It's like if I don't have friends who who see me as I see myself and who share a worldview, then I'm I'm gonna not survive because I felt even though my aunt and uncle gave me so much stability and love, I was just really struggling mentally and emotionally.
So then the desperation of really leaving home, you know, like running away and needing a place to stay and needing to you know, the people I meet, doing a gut check of like can I trust these people are not? I don't know. I think something about that desperation led me to just like really strong connections and also a feeling of like I don't have a choice, like this life is for me because this is the only one I can see.
Okay, you win the poetry contest. How does it become music?
Well, really that really started in New Orleans.
So I oh wait, wait, wait, wait, So you drop out of school, you're squatting, you go on trains. Do you not play music on the street until you're in New Orleans? Yeah? Okay, So how do you end up in New Orleans?
Through word of mouth? I ended up back in New York City, and I'm it was for I think the RNC was happening there and there were like huge protests, so all these people were heading back to New York or heading to New York. I go and I end up staying at this squatter building and meeting a bunch of people, and people are telling me that New Orleans
is unlike any other place in America. I came back from probably eight or nine months on the road just feeling completely destroyed and like I had one friend with me and just feeling really lost, and hearing about this city, I was like, that's where I want to go. So I actually caught a ride in a van from New York to New Orleans with some other people that were
living there that are still my friends to today. And the minute I got there, it was like, yeah, I felt like this is where I'm supposed to be.
Well. New Orleans has a unique culture, even a unique legal system, the French legal system. But it's moist and it's hot. It's not really good to be poor in New Orleans. See.
I was just trying to get away from the cold. So I was like, bring it on, you know, but to be fair, when the summer came, we did like all scatter because the summer is so intense there. But when I when I got there, you know, it was definitely a place of the way street kids make money is playing music. So I met some people who some two other musicians, this guy Barnabas is kid Kiowa, and I had this little washboard that someone had given me and that was how I started to play. They were
you know, we were all hanging out. It was like a campfire. Kiowa was playing Johnny Cash songs and that was also a huge like folk awakening for me. Early on was listening to Johnny Cash, so I knew all these songs that he was playing, and I started singing with him. And I was playing my washboard with just like some fucking rocks or something that I found on the street, and Barnabas was learning how to play the violin.
So we just like started to gather every day and think of different songs that we could sing together, like Tom Waite songs or that's where I started learning Why Guthrie songs. And through that we formed my first band, a hobo band called the dead Man Street Orchestra.
But you're playing the washboard, yeah, And in the first band, to what degree is it your lyrics in your voice?
That was hurry for the riff raff. That was the first. It was after this hobo band that I was in for about a year. It was when everybody started to scatter from that, from that project that I felt devastated.
You know.
I put so much of my time and so much of my identity became being in a band with these people, and I just really remember this feeling of I can't risk that again. I have to have something that's mine. So I started putting poetry that I had to song with my first like instrument after the washboard, which was the banjo, and it was I was in this apartment in Brooklyn that all these other feminists were living in
and they let me stay there. You know, they are probably seven of us in the apartment, and I recorded my first record or EP on my friend Emily's just like her laptop with like a built in microphone. I like locked myself in a room and recorded like eight or nine songs.
Okay, the Hobo band is that something you're just playing around the campfire? Are you playing on the streets? Is this a working band?
We would yeah, we would play on the street. So we would we would ride mostly you know what they called junk. It's like cargo that is not deemed like very important. So we had this idea of like, well, it'll be less secure because you know there's high traffic stuff that like the security risk is that you're gonna steal it. So we're like, okay, we'll ride junk all around the Southeast and end up in tiny little towns like Waycross, Georgia or like random towns in Florida or
North Carolina. And what we would do is we would get off the train in this tiny town, go walk, find like the main street, and basically busk until we could like meet someone and you know, hopefully meet another punk. There was a lot of that, looking for anyone who like looked kind of weird, and sometimes people would let us play in their backyard. We would end up playing in a in a you know, a living room or something,
or at a coffee shop. Sometimes we were really a spectacle because there were like six of us and a dog, so it was it was easy to attract attention. It was kind of like we were a magnet that the weirdos of the town would like be drawn to us, and suddenly on the third day it would be like, I've heard about you guys wandering through town, you know.
And how did that fall apart?
I think the same way all bands do, you know, Like, especially at that age, people have these different goals. Someone's like I'm trying to get on a barge to Alaska. Someone's like I'm trying to like go on a bike trip through Europe, like everyone is just everyone had these like really lofty ideas of like what their next adventure would be, and it felt like this adventure had run
its course. But a lot of us did end up in New Orleans, and everyone's still playing music to this day, just in different projects.
Okay, you start playing the bando before you get to New York or when you get to New York.
I started playing the banjo in New Orleans after I would say, like, uh, like four or five months into playing with Dead Man, just because I wanted to sing more. And everybody in the group had their own folk music inclinations. You know. Some people who were playing stringed instruments or the accordion player. They wanted to learn a lot of like Eastern European music, and I was really drawn to the old time ballads or like more early country songs just because what I wanted to do to do was sing.
And that was what I learned with that band, was that I loved to sing. And I knew that when I was a kid. When I was a kid, I would play songs with my dad. But once I hit puberty, I really lost touch with that, you know. So this was the beginning of me knowing what kind of lyrics I liked, what kind of song structures I liked, and also I started learning some early blues songs like by Bessie Smith.
Okay, you're playing the biancho. Then you end up in New York with these women. How do you end up in New York?
Just from the same type of wanderings, you know, it was like a really long northern journey on the Last Dead Man Street Orchestra tour where we ended up. The fiddle players had family and like rural New York I think, like near Fishkill or something like that. And then it's like I find I make my way back to the city. And it was my friends Amelia and Emily, who were
still my best friends today. They were in school and you know, these like really tough feminists I met who were a part of that like squatter movement during this protest period, and they started just like being in regular contact with me. We would email each other. They started teaching me about feminism and teaching me like different you know, they'd like lend me a book that I should read, like here's Bill Hooks, here's Angela Davis. All these types of people.
Okay, you're in the apartment, you record these songs on a laptop. They become your first EP. As I say, we're now more than ever you can do it yourself. When you were singing those songs into the laptop, are you thinking this is a record or are you thinking I'm just making a permanent record of the music.
In my mind, I think at that point I was thinking I'm making a tape because that was still like we still had. It was a bit nostalgic, not as nostalgic as it is now, but there was this like romanticism about getting a mixtape or something that we were really excited about, and that was my preferred way of listening to music. So I think I was thinking, Okay, I'm gonna record this and then put it on CD. We all knew CDs were terrible, So I was excited
to make tapes. And I definitely had the intention of like distributing it, like you know, in a DIY way, but I was excited to There was something about thinking I can make this tape and I can give it to these people and they'll be able to really see me. There was this really this excitement of being seen in a way that I felt like I couldn't quite communicate Throughout just like being myself every day.
Okay, you record it, you then put it on CD. Then what do you do?
Uh? I started just making copies, making tapes, asked a friend to make some album art for me. We would have shows at that you know, acoustic shows at that apartment, and that was something that I was doing. It started to become more of like, oh, this is something I could do. I started to take on more of an identity of I think it's possibly could be a singer songwriter.
Okay, you put out this EP in two thousand and seven, you put out two more albums two thousand and eight, twenty ten. You're doing it. But is it there any reaction? Is it growing? Are you trying to get on the radio? What is going on with your career at that point?
Definitely not trying to get on the radio that I wish I thought of that time. At first, it was purely Okay, I'm trying to give something to my friends. And then you know, I had to make the realization that was time for me to really buckle down in New Orleans after the Hobo band fell apart, and I started to really think like, Okay, I want to live somewhere. I want to have a home and I want to focus on songwriting. So I get jobs at coffee shops and start living in a house with three other four
other artists. And that when I made the record it don't mean I don't love you. I had started playing around New Orleans a lot. I made friends with a local musician there, Walt McClements, who is still making really beautiful music today. He starts playing with me, he starts supporting me and just helping me get respect in the local, you know, underground scene, the scene that's separate from from the jazz world there, and I was getting a lot of really great a lot of great support and excitement.
At one point, there was a brief period where I was able to get a manager and then that fell apart. And that was during the second record, what I called the second record, Young Blood Blues. I briefly got a manager and then she very quickly, you know, dumped me. And then it was there was a local lawyer who was hanging out and who was my close friend named Andy Buiser, and he was like, I'm just going to become your manager. And from there it felt like, okay,
this is go time. Let's really let's go on tour. Let's try to do something, you know, And that was all leading up to making Lookout Mama, and look Out Mama felt like a real change in my life, like this is what I do. I'm on the road. I finally met, you know, a real producer in a even though it's I call it a real studio, but it was his house, Andrea Tokic in Nashville.
Okay, let's go back a little bit. If I heard you correctly, at this point, when you first moved back to New Orleans, you have a straight gig working in the coffee shop. Yeah, okay, that's paying the bills. While that is going on, you're working on your music. Are you playing live at all?
Yeah? A lot of playing live, Yeah.
For money or just in the background for money.
Probably not a lot of money. But it was definitely shows where you know, it's multiple acts, and so I was. I was definitely playing a lot. And then also I was still playing on the street. That was when I started to play on the street purely for money. Was playing traditional jazz on the banjo or singing, doing both with some bands that were like pretty established on the street scene there. And I mean honestly that paid better
than the coffee shop gig. Like that was. I felt very conflicted with playing in those bands because they paid so well, but I found them to be so boring, and all I wanted to do was write my own music. But I felt like, man, I could play a wedding, I could play two shifts on the street on a beautiful day and come out with like four hundred dollars, because it was like we were just making an insane amount of money.
At what point do you start playing the guitar?
That was closer to look Out Mama. I think the first time I'm recorded playing the guitar was on Young Blood Blues, and that was the record right before I look Out Mama. In like twenty ten, I started playing the guitar because I would go see family in New York and I would end up at the well. It wasn't at the Jalapie. It's something called Ruts and Rucis. That is a night of folk music with like many different revolving performers, and it was it used to be
at Cafe is it? Oh? No, the village, Ma, Yeah, it used to be at the Village, Ma. A friend of mine started the night, so I would go play that for some money and also to see other great folk musicians and be inspired. And it was hanging out with those people that I started to really fall in love with the guitar.
Okay, in this you're making a couple of records, you're driven. Are there any signs that things are opening up you certain reactions, certain breaks, or you just doing it on a real underground level.
It was a lot of local reaction, which felt like the whole world to me. You know, this is really before we were still like really clued into the internet. I definitely wasn't. I wasn't really that focused on anything outside of New Orleans. Anything outside of New Orleans felt like it was it didn't involve me. So when I would get local reaction, or when I would be on a show and one hundred people show up at the show, it felt like, man, I made it, you know. So
that really did a lot for me. But I, like I said, a major change was when I got in contact with this look, with this manager and she was talking to you know, she like flew down to meet me. I'm thinking, like, oh, it's all happening, Like like what people say is going to happen. And then pretty quickly she's like, I don't see this going anywhere for you, you know, which I don't blame her, because at the time, I don't think I seemed very like like I made
sense in any sort of there was like this. It was kind of still inde sleeves going on or something going on in music at that time. So that was I really had to reckon with that. Though I had to. I think it woke me up and it also made me. It made me less naive of Oh, things are just going to flow. It's going to be some like music documentary where someone discovers you and then you're a folk star or something like that that you see. It made me think, Okay, I don't want to play jazz gigs
for my living anymore. That's not what I like to do. I need to find a way to get more serious about my songwriting. And that's when Andy Buiser became my manager, and when I made look Out Mama. That was when I started to feel like, Okay, let's try to make something. Let's try to get attention from outside of this city.
Okay, at what point do you call it hooray for the riff raf.
From the beginning from the very first one.
Okay, I have to ask the obvious question, why hooray for the riff.
Rath Okay, my memory is shoddy, but I remember that fiddle player I mentioned Barnabas. We were all, you know that the Jovo band ended up at this their family house. They let like the six seven hobo kids like all sleepover, and we're all hanging out and we were all saying goodbye. The next day we got like, I think she dropped me and Barnabas off at a train yard nearby. We were going somewhere and she said something about riff raff and she said it in this really like loving way,
just and it. I remember in that moment thinking like I like that. And I'd already been toying around with like, well, what would I call a band if it was just my band? What would you know? I really didn't like the idea of just using my name. I was a big fan of cat Power, and I was like, I loved that she had a cool, weird name, you know. I just thought like it was more mysterious, So I got it. I remember it was inspired by my friend's mom. And then and then I used.
To Okay, there are a million bands who say, hey, we just settled on a name, and if we knew it was going to be the ultimate name of a big wish, it wasn't this. Are you happy that it's hooray for the riff Raff?
I wouldn't say I'm overjoyed, but I've learned to. I've learned to love it. I've learned to. I think it's good for me that I have to you know, I'm here. It's kind of like when you get a tattoo when you're seventeen. It's like, I'm still very much in touch
with that young kid. And also I do think that the threads and the themes are still so much of what inspires me and what is like the colors that I paint with, you know, I think that a lot has changed, and also like the main themes are still there.
Okay, you make the Lookout Mom a record? What changes after you make that?
That was when we started to get more attention. That was when you know, we're still the tours. We were still rough, but at that age, I'm probably like twenty four twenty five, I was just so excited to like live on the road for two months in the van and we start meeting other like like minded musicians that are it felt like there was something really happening in
the Southeast that was really exciting. And that was when, you know, as I was making the next record, small Town Heroes, or writing those songs, I started to get contacted by Ato Records, by this woman Kirby Lee, who actually saw me play at a Roots and Ruckus set in New York one time, like when I'm playing by myself and she, you know, approached me and we became fast friends. And that was my first time getting attention
from a label. And also then the next record, small Town Heroes, was my first record with a label in the US.
Okay, you're going on the road. It's a band? Is it the same people? How did the economics work?
We split everything equally, which I think was very generous. I just didn't you know we would just split everything split like the CD sales. I mean back then CD sales were you could be like a working, just like hustling musician and you sold so many CDs. It's so crazy to think that, Like, we don't sell physical copies anymore. You know, I had made I made look Out Mama
into physical pressings through a Kickstarter. That was how we paid for the vinyl and how we paid for like the album art and everything, but we would split everything equally. We would sleep on people's floors. Sometimes at the end of a set, we'd be like, and we're looking for blades to stay We like end up staying in random people's houses. So it was it was very like still Hoboesque, but it was the same people for that period of time. I'd say, like look Out Mama and Small Town were
a similar group, a similar band. It was two people from a band called the Deslons that are still going and Yos Pearlstein who played on h Young Blood Blues and look at Mama and small Town Heroes.
So yeah, okay, Kickstarter, how much money do you ask for? And in Kickstarter you have to reach that level on like cah go go how much money? And how do you get the word out?
Uh? Well, I think think that was when Facebook was finally here, So we were putting it out to like a lot of our friends and family, and I think it's like I want to say, it was not a lot like seventy five hundred or something. I should find it because you know, we were recording with Andrea at his house still, so it wasn't like a crazy amount and we just wanted to make physical you know, CDs, So it wasn't a lot, but we made our goal and and yeah, I thought it was a big success.
Now you made a covers album via Kickstarter after that, right, well, that.
Was one of their rewards. I wanted to give people a reward, so I said, okay, you'll get uh, you'll get some of my covers record that I'll also record with Andrea as like an incentive. And you know, I think we had we had like a mailing li at the time. We definitely had some like cult fan base in the Southeast, particularly because that was where we would you know, tour so often in like Alabama and North Carolina and Georgia. So there were people that were really supportive.
Okay, this comes out before the person from Ato makes contact. Other than getting the money on kickscharter and having enough money to make the record, did that grow the act?
Yeah? I mean it really it felt like that record was reaching outside of our bubble. It felt like people were hearing about it. It felt like we could go on tour on the West Coast, and people would come. It felt like there was a word of mouth and it was also at a good time for that sound. I felt like that sound was you know, during that time, we met Brittany and members of Alabama Sheikhs, and there
was a band Shovels and Rope. It felt like there was really something going on with that type of sound. So it felt like it was growing for sure.
Okay, by time you get the deal with Ato, is the lawyer still your manager? Do you have an agent? What's the status of the band?
By the time Ato came to us, Andy was still our manager and it was signing with Ato. I'd say after small Town when we started to realize that it was getting really big for him, you know, he started starting his own family that and then Kirby Lee, who signed me, actually became my manager.
And who is your manager today, Chris chen So how did you get from Kirby to Chris.
Gosh? I mean, well, me and Kirk we were together for a couple of records and that was amazing, and we were really we were best friends and we still are very very close. And I felt like after you know, me and Kirby were together from small Town till the Navigator, and after the Navigator, things in my life and in the life of the band felt really confusing. After I put out that record, I had no idea what to do. And then you know, after that, we're hit with the pandemic.
So I was in a really tough spot and me and Kirby weren't working together anymore. And actually Chris Chris chen I met him because when none Such approached me, uh after the Navigator, he was working at None Such. So we became friends and stayed in touch, and it was through that meeting that he became my manager.
Okay, let's back up. Yeah, you're an ATO. Do you have an agent?
At first we didn't. Then we eventually signed with Josh Brinkman for a little bit. This is the part of the interview I'm going to be bad at because I feel like I don't remember a lot of people's names. But we're with Josh Brinkman for a little and he became our booking agent. Yeah.
Well, how many booking agents since then?
Uh? Just too including the one that we're with now. So now we're with Martial Debts.
And what is the difference between booking agents.
Well, I think there's been a big difference in me.
You know, I learned a lot with small town Heroes because I was coming from this scene in New Orleans that it wasn't the genre didn't really matter as much, and I didn't really understand anything about like your presentation and your brand and all these types of just like aesthetic choices that you make about a band and how that affects where you play, the type of festivals you play, like, you know, the genre that you end up in, and small town heroes to me, I didn't really know that
it would mean I would be on this Americana track, which is funny to say now, but I wanted to get off of it pretty fast once I was. Once I put out that record, I felt like I was presenting myself the wrong way, and it was really hard for the people that work with me to understand what I meant. You know, It's like I don't want to play these like Americana festivals. It's like, well, you play
Americana music, so what do you want. So that's why with The Navigator, I wanted to really shift the focus and I wanted to take the reins and just change the track of where I was going.
You know, that's not that easy. Was it easy for you.
To seem so hard? So hard? And so many people were like, you're ruining your career, and I don't even doubt them. I was just like, well, I'm miserable though I'm in situations. I was in environments where I felt extremely un like respected and I felt very sometimes unsafe, just like I felt like an outsider at my own gigs, you know, not ones that were particularly for me, but I felt like I was being placed in the wrong settings.
And I just had this idea of yeah, I play the singer songwriter music and sometimes there's a fiddle, but it's still a little bit indie rock. It's still a little bit off kilter. I don't want to go down this like I want to somehow show the off kilter of it and show that it's still a little bit weird in the best use of the word, you know. So it was really difficult, and a lot of people were just like, you're not gonna be able to do this.
And luckily, I feel like now genre has been blown up, so I think it's working a lot better than it did at first.
So at first it was a struggle career wise.
Definitely The Navigator in general was a really hard time for me. I'm so proud of that record, and I'm so proud of of just like the campaign that we made and the people that I worked with. You know, I was working with shore Fire. I still do on publicity, and I learned so much in how that was a
part of my art. You know, that was a major I think, just a tool that I was able to express these other parts of myself, Like I was able to talk to writers I really respect, and to thinkers and to show the side of me that I think is a huge part of the music. But as far as as educating an audience, taking you know, taking them a new direction from this like idea of me that they first met with small Town, it was really hard.
And it was also a very you know, it was the beginning of a very tense political climate of course, so it was just rough. Being on the road was rough. Playing shows was rough. Sometimes we'd get heckled. I mean, I've been pretty lucky with stuff like that, but a lot of like why are you speaking out about things like go back to playing the fucking banjo or whatever. You know, it was really it was a really hard time.
Okay, in this evolution, did the audience adjust or did people fall off and you get new people?
People fell off and I got new people, and then you know there is a section that adjusts. I think there's a there's a core group that always saw me as just an artist, a songwriter. I think some people who've who've like, they have artists that they love, and they also are willing to go down a journey with them and expect changes and expect different influences. So people who listen in that way and our fans in that way were ready for the ride and if anything, excited
about it. And then some people drop off and then you make new fans or I made new fans.
Okay, you obviously decide I did to go down this path, and you were staying the path. But in the transition, which had was not one hundred percent smooth, to what degree were you personally angstying?
Oh it's really hard. Yeah, I was experiencing a lot of stage fright. I was experiencing just like I still was in a place where I wasn't that worried about like my overall future. I still think I had some of that like gift of like of youth where I was like, no, I'm on my hero's journey and something is going to happen. But I hated the feeling of being misunderstood and I hated the feeling of being scared.
And I felt like when I had to go play sometimes I had to come out with such a warrior energy, and it is exhausting to be a warrior all the time. I felt like I wasn't giving the subtlety that I wanted, and it was also just really hard on my nervous system, hard on my body, and also you know, we're like still in the van, so it's just a hard touring life. Yeah.
So if you put out that album The Navigator, at what point do you say, I've turned it around. I'm comfortable, this is who I am. It's working. If you've even reached that point.
I think it took a lot of time. It took, you know. Now is when I feel like that, because people mention that record to me, and it's so it blows my mind every time. I'm like, Wow, I'm so glad that you're here. You know. Now, people talk about Balante and at first, like I remember telling people about this song and it was just like I felt crazy. I felt, you know, they didn't know what this word meant. I hardly knew what the word meant. It means to
keep going. It's like Puerto Rican slang about continuing on. So and I will say, even though during that time I didn't know, I felt very uncertain about the audience reception. I did feel like the people I worked with were real believers. The producer Paul Paul Butler was such a believer and we I felt like I went through like a spiritual transformation while making that record. That that was how I survived because I felt a very deep spiritual connection to the music.
Okay, you produce the first ATO record, as you say, Paul Butler produced the second. What's that transition about.
I think I just understood that I don't want to be good at everything, or I don't have to be the best at everything. I felt like I wanted some guidance. I wanted to say, hey, I don't know what to do with this, and also to say I'm at a stalemate here, help me get out, you know, like I'm trying to change my sound or I'm trying to expand it, I should say. And I was listening to a lot
of Georgia Ben and listening to Rodriguez. So I had all these sounds in my head and also this idea of like this music should be put to a play that I was also working on the side that was writing. So I wanted a creative partner. And when I met Paul, I just knew that this was it and he would challenged me, but he was also really excited to make something ambitious.
Okay, you know Ato, the majors mean less, the independence mean more. I remember when Ato was much smaller. Aho is kind of a major thing now. But you're making these two records. How much money are they giving you to make these records.
For a small town. We really didn't get a lot, uh, because you know, Andrea was extremely affordable at the time. I'm sure its rates have gone up, but also we didn't really need We had a band, so that was the touring band for Navigator. We had to get more, and I don't know, like it wasn't a lot. I would say it was like when me or I don't know. I feel like I'm the worst person to ask, but I remember it not being an insane amount.
Okay, let's be point blank for the ato records. They cost X Did you ever make a royalty? No? Okay, at this point in time, other than selling music at the gig, are you making any money from music being streamed or used in any way online?
From my early record well? Actually no, that's like I didn't even have them. Well, I was selling them at the gigs, you know, I had these CDs that I could sell at the gig.
But I'm talking about online.
Oh online? No, no, no, no.
To this day, you're not making any money from online?
Not really no, I mean definitely not recouped.
So okay, wait before you switch to none, such, what does the touring look like? Are you headlining? Are you opening? What? And how are you traveling? Et cetera.
A lot of headlining the gigs were not as frequent. It would be like an occasional gig.
You know, Well, do you're not opening by you know, I have a friend who's got a philosophy. My acts never open, so if somebody comes, they're coming to see them. It might be a smaller gig, but it's their audience. Yeah, Were you headlining by choice because of that or it just happened that way?
We would do which we still do you know, like a year of headlining and then hoping to get it, like, I'll definitely go on a tour like I just went, you know, for Life on Earth. I went on tour with Bright Eyes for like on and off for like four or five months. And if it's the right act then and it pays the bills, then for sure, I'll do it. But it seemed like nobody was really knocking on our door to open. And yeah, I really agree
that we had a small but dedicated fan base. It just was better for us to headline.
Okay, bright Eyes got a good reputation, not exactly your sound. How was that experience opening for Bright Eyes?
It was it really it made more sense than you'd think. You know, we're all like in that band, and for me, we're all obsessed with the song. You know, it's very song storyteller focused. And also these are guys that are interested in all genres just like me. It was a really amazing experience. Life on Earth was my last record, and that was also a tough time for me and a tough time on the road. Coming back through pandemic
times and going on tour with them saved me. I also, I didn't grow up as big of a Bright Eyes fan. Of course I knew who they were, and of course I listened to some songs on mixtapes and stuff, But this was my first time really experiencing Connor's lyrical genius every night, and that was a lifesaver. Hearing those lyrics every night just expanded my mind. I felt like, okay, I'm learning each night, you.
Know, Okay, tell me about switching to none such.
It was again, well, this was right before the pandemic. My you know, my time with Ato ran its course, and I had these.
Yeah, theoretically, if you'd wanted to make another record with Ato, could you have? And if not, was it with a choice to separate their's yours?
It was their?
Okay?
Yeah, you know the Navigator. It wasn't a huge success commercially, and I think again, like for people who first worked with me with small town heroes, maybe they thought that they were getting a certain type of artists and then I do this complete change or it. You know, it was a pretty drastic change. And then coming into life on Earth, the demos I had were even weirder. And now I'm like playing with electronics stuff and I'm just starting to go in this just experimenting in this other way.
So I think it just wasn't what they were interested in, and none such was really.
Well, was a little bit slower, a little bit slower. Huh, Ato says we're going to part ways. Yeah, how do you handle that emotionally?
I mean, even though I'm sensitive, I can be really tough and stubborn where I'm just like okay, like I'm gonna find a way where there is no way.
Okay. Then, how does nuns you said, nuns such found you?
Yeah?
I mean, did you have a manager of somebody putting out demos feelers? How did none such ultimately make contact with you?
Yeah? I mean I think it was probably I had a brief manager after Kirby Lee, and I feel like that was the connection. I remember meeting, you know, David By there came to New Orleans, where I lived at the time. I just recently moved.
And wait, wait we live where now?
And now I live in Chicago.
And why Chicago?
I love it here. I mean also, my whole band is based out of here, and I've I've slowly started to become obsessed with the music scene in Chicago that this like independent music scene specifically my Bassis Namdi, who puts out really he's been putting out really amazing weird music forever. Also send Marie Mooto. There's just like a really cool scene of kind of genre lists, really inspired artists here. So I started making friends and I'm excited about the change.
Okay, so by There comes to New Orleans and.
And we have a dinner and it was really great and I felt really respected, and it was just everything I was looking for, you know. It was It's like a prestigious label with uh, just a roster of artists that I'm I'm just like, I want to have a career like that. I want to have a career that's long. I want to have a career that is inspired and takes chances where the art is is first. And so I felt like that was the home for me.
Well, No Such is great on a million levels, and by There was great, but point blank, you've made two records for None Such, which really is a major label. You know, it lives in its own world, but it's part of the Warner Group, et cetera. What is different about being un Done Such as opposed to your prior records.
I mean, I think I've I think the experiences are pretty similar, honestly, like I've never had the experience of people telling me what to do with the art. I've gotten lucky for both rounds with Ato and None Such that they're very the artist knows what you want, so so yeah, I would say, I mean also, of course, like this time for life on Earth and for for
the past is still alive. The money was better, and especially I needed that because I'm working with a producer, Brad Cook, and just like everything's leveled up and it's kind of like, okay, we're in the big leagues. Now we got to do some big leak stuff, you know, Okay, you.
Know, irrelevant of view, irrelevant of none such. The landscape continues to evolve. The old paradigm has dead. You know, let's get print to TV, getting on the radio now, you know, it's more. Yeah, you have your fan base, but growing your fan base is on the road. And then there's like some luck you know, Spotify, TikTok. You know, is there anything that None such has done in particular that a previous outfit did not do that you can see to your benefit.
I think they were just very supportive to what to the process I was going through. I think Life on Earth. You know, Life on Earth also wasn't a blockbus by any means, but they were very patient and very supportive of this weird record I made that I really believe in, and then I think staying with me and staying supportive during that time and giving me what I needed to make the past is still alive. This is by far like the most successful record I've made, and I think
it'll continue to be. I think it'll be a life changing record for me, and I think when other labels would have started to really freak out, they were just extremely supportive and really listened to me and Chris and followed our lead.
Okay, how can you feel or how you measuring that the new latest album is so successful?
I can feel it in the audiences. I can feel it also just in like a cultural sense. It feels like it's I mean, the type of press that I've gotten and the responses that I've gotten, it feels like it really connected, like the vision I had in mind
was being I brought it to people. And also I'm starting to feel like other avenues are opening up for me, like this record has somehow opened up avenues for me in writing and in meeting other thinkers that I really respect, and just getting into rooms that I felt like I was locked out of before because I'm just like a musician solely. Something about this record has really opened up a multi faceted future for me. I think.
Now, if I remember correctly, they did a feature on you in the New York Times, Right, that feels good? You know, did you hear from the people you grew up with? Did it have any effect? Or you say that was nice?
Now it's Wednesday, Definitely, that was nice. Now it's Wednesday, definitely, that was nice. Time to go on tour. We better fucking sell tickets on this tour, you know. And in that way, I think, I think things are still growing for sure in the touring world. That's where my focus is. Is like I want to get out of the fucking van and I'm just stubborn as hell, and I'm gonna work until I do. You know, there's a huge chasm
between like van band to bus band. It feels like the fucking Grand Canyon, like you just you don't know how to get over there. And I think a lot of it is luck and the right timing and the right placement and the right like you know. So that's my like struggle right now. But I'm gonna just keep working.
Okay, the economics. You know, you were literally, you know, a squatter. What's your economic status today?
I mean I feel rich. It's like I can pay rent, and I mean my life is still compared to other people. It's like I don't have a car, you know, I don't own any land or anything. I don't I but I can go out to dinner, I can pay my rent. I'm just I'm also constantly working. I'm at a place where I'd really love to not tour as much as I do. I've been on tour on and off since February, you know. I've had like two weeks off recently, and
it was so good for my body. So I'd love to get to a place where I'm not consistently touring. Because I tour and then I find a way to tour the second year of a record, and then when that starts to dry up, I'm like, well, I can do solo shows.
You know.
There's always some kind of get back on the road to make some money hustle, and I want to start writing. I want to find a way to spend more time at home.
So tell me about how you cope with the pandemic.
By writing through it. For sure, I felt really lucky to be in New Orleans. It's just it was so beautiful and we didn't have to deal with like the winner, you know. I was always able to go outside. Luckily we had a democratic governor who believed in science, or else I think we would have been fucked, you know. So I felt like the state actually handled it really well. We were able to get testing pretty early on. It was also the time that I met Brad that I
started to a friend, I'm a terrible driver. I'm like always a New Yorker who didn't grow up driving. So I didn't want to fly, of course, So I convinced two separate friends on two separate trips, to drive with me to Durham, and I'd like, get an Airbnb and we would get, you know, get tested, and then I'd go get into the studio with Brad. So that was how I coped, was making life on Earth and meeting Brad and getting inspired in that way.
And how'd you cope financially?
I was pretty okay, I mean, really not doing anything helped. Not doing anything, not going anywhere definitely had to like buckle down. But also I'd just gotten this. I felt really lucky to have gotten a record deal, you know, before the pandemic hit. It was like a week before so where I feel like maybe they would have been a little bit more timid about signing me. A couple of weeks later, when the world shuts down, I just had this record deal go through. I felt like, let's
I don't know. I felt like there was actually a lot of opportunity for me, and I was so happy to not be on tour.
Okay, I've seen you live Beyond before the pandemic. I'm aware. But in all the press for these none such work, they've referenced non binary and they them pronouns.
Ye.
Is it just because this is something I'm aware of now or is it something that was always the case in I'm late or is it a change what's going on there?
It was a change during the pandemic. I think there was something about not being you know, this word perceived that I feel like people are using a lot. It was a but a major time of I was getting a lot of nostalgia and I was also doing a lot of recounting my life and the people that meant a lot to me, and a lot of those people are trans people. That's a huge part of this band still existing is just like trans community throughout my whole life. Somehow coming in seeing me the way I saw myself
supporting me. And there was this moment in the Pandemic where I just kind of got this little inkling of like, why am I not allowing myself to just like, for lack of a better term, to like fuck around with gender, Like why don't I allow myself that freedom? I allow myself a lot of creative freedom, but I have I focus so much on performance and the art and the band.
And it felt like giving myself this gift to allow my own personal life and the way that I see myself and the way I communicate with people and ask them to address me and stuff. It felt like a gift of allowing myself, Yeah, a new freedom and an exploration. It's also extremely vulnerable because you're just you're like, well, a lot of people aren't going to get it. Some people are going to make fun of it. Some people it's going to make them really mad, and you're not
sure why. But it felt like suddenly I was getting closer to this, to the truth of like the kid in me who never felt like gender quite made sense to me in my experience of it, who felt like I was always this like kind of third other thing. And it felt like I feel very fine with that, you know. Just it felt like I was giving myself a gift to be a little bit more complicated to people and to not care.
You know, theoretically you could have changed this but not announced it. You chose to announce it because.
Because it's just the truth of where I'm at, you know, announcing it. Also, it mostly was just telling press like when they write when they wrote about me, And also I felt like, well, people are also gonna write whatever they want. But it felt important to me to say this is where I'm at. This would have been thinking about, you know, and this is how I see myself. So you can refer to me as this or you cannot. But I'm still going to be doing what I'm doing.
Okay, So you have these thoughts. You gave yourself this freedom, Yeah, has your life changed or it's a terrible term to say you've acted on this freedom. But once you've come to this realization and announced it has your life changed.
I feel a sense of relief and I feel, you know, who knows what of it is also from just aging in the great way of a new confidence and just more of a rooted feeling in knowing who I am. You know, I definitely feel like what's funny about freeing yourself from identity is like then you just get new categories. It's like then you get more boxed in in a way,
but as far. But I also feel like that has so much to do with outside perception and the Internet and just like all this bullshit when it comes to me, It's like, I feel happier at this time in my life than I've ever felt. And I think a lot of that is by is a testament to just being honest about who I am and to be unapologetic about it.
You mentioned that you had a lot of trans friends the trans community. I certainly have trans people, I know. I guess what I'm saying is the way you mentioned it sound like you had more trans friends than someone who might live in the city, and for some reason you fell into a world where you had more trans friends. Is it just the luck of the draw, or is there something about your drawn to this community and how does that affect you.
I was definitely drawn to the community for sure. I think also there was something going on in the punk scene when I was, you know, in Turning, like eighteen nineteen, that there was this like queer punk like revolution happening. And I was also meeting a lot of trans train writers. You know, my old fiddle player Yo C. Pearlstein, who was on three records. We rode freight trains together before he joined the band, and he was a part of like a really cool crew of trans train writers called
bent Rails. So it was definitely the world that I was drawn to. And I felt like when I would be in these very queer spaces, very trans spaces, I felt a sense of freedom.
You know.
I used to play this one DIY festival out in rural Tennessee called Ida that was all mostly trans artists, and I couldn't I didn't have the language for why I felt well, extremely why I felt more comfortable there, but I just knew that I did. So it was just something that I kept with me this whole time.
Are you in a relationship presently?
Yeah?
And I'm going to ask, yeah, man, woman, trans person.
It's as a man. Yeah, okay, And how long has this gone on for a year now?
And you live together with him in this apartment?
I do, yeah.
And is he a musician?
He is, yeah, but he doesn't he does, he's mostly does front of house.
Now and in the past with this itinerant lifestyle. Yeah, have you been mostly solo or had relationships mostly solo?
A lot of obsessive songwriting.
Yeah, and prior to now, what is the law longest relationship you've had?
It was for actually for seven years?
Seven years a long time.
It is a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How old were you when this happened?
This was after Navigator, which is how I see my life in the chapters of albums. But yeah, it was for seven years after Navigator until you know, until pretty recently.
Okay, I mean until pretty recently. Yeah, was this person? What was their life about?
They were not a musician. I don't normally I just don't really talk about my especially not for people who are not in the music world. So I try to give them their privacy.
Okay, Then let me ask you a different question. Why did it end?
Gosh, just like complete fork in the road, life, life stuff, definitely two different lifestyles me, especially going into these last two records, being like I need to pedal to the metal, do everything I can for my career, you know, and their life is very not like this. And also I think I think there is something to just like to not wanting a traditional relationship, not wanting a traditional not wanting marriage eventually you know that type of life.
Okay, but relationships of that length. Breakups are really hard. Yeah, sometimes you get back together other people. I'm more of this school. It's like when it's done, I can't have contact with you, it's just too painful.
Yeah, for sure.
What is going on with you in this person?
That's definitely more of it. I'm you know, But I also have I feel lucky to be a part of a world that's like, even though it's big, it's small, and I definitely feel a lot of love. But I feel so like, especially mixing that with the loss of my dad, it's like, right now I have to be like I'm forward motion and I'm changing my life and I'm going to a new chapter because if I look back, it's just so difficult. It's just like the nostalgia will
just like take over me. And also it's like this this grief about being a younger version of myself and just like a different part of life. It really feels like that was a magical time and now it's like I have to let that be and I need to find a way to, you know, keep moving and look forward to the future.
When did your father pass us?
He passed away a month before this record. We supported it before I recorded it. Yeah, so it was a year ago in February, and then I went into the studio in March. So it was really sudden, and it was pretty Yeah, it was pretty recent.
Okay, you've had this parapatetic lifestyle, you drop out of high school, you go on the road. Now, as we said earlier in the New York Times, where were your father, your aunt, and your uncle about all this?
They were really supportive. My dad particularly was really supportive of my music. You know. He he randomly sent me, like the week that he got sick, he randomly sent me a box with every CD I'd ever sent him. Because I just like thought he was the coolest. I mean, he drove me crazy, but he was like a jazz musician, so I just thought he was the shit. And he sent me. It was CDs from jazz bands on the Street that I'd sent him that I was recorded on.
It was the dead Man Street Orchestra, was all my early records.
You know.
He's on the cover of Lookout Mama. So that was a huge moment for him. So he was so supportive. And my aunt and uncle were really supportive too.
Let's be very clear, when you're riding the trains and you're in the Dead Mid Orchestra, were they supportive then?
I mean more so are you gonna die? Like? My aunt for sure went through many years of are you going to die?
Like?
That was just I mean, bless her heart, you know, Like to me, I was like, I'm having the time of my fucking life, even when it's horrible, I'm having the time of my life. And to her, she's just like, what are you doing? Are you gonna survive? You know? Once I started, I think her life got a lot easier when I like settled in New Orleans, got a job, and she was excited that I was, you know, starting to write songs, and she didn't understand the music at all.
It's definitely not her style of music. But once that started happening, there was so much relief. There was never a lot of like shame about me not going to college. I mean now we joke about how I saved so much debt, Like I'm not in debt because I didn't go to fucking college, you know. So, but there was this relief and appreciation when when I started this band.
And what is your brother up to?
He was a police officer in New York for a long time. That was attention. That was like to completely separate it separate people. But he was super supportive too. We just like didn't talk about politics ever.
Okay, do you have health insurance?
I do? Now?
Yeah, when did you get it?
Uh? Well, actually when I signed to none such.
Okay, So you've had this amazing career going on for basically two decades at this point or so. You're living the dream. But you're an incredibly driven, persistent person, constantly putting one foot in front of the other. Yeah, what is the dream? What is the target in front of you?
I think about this all the time. For me, it's that I want to get to a place where I can have when I can where I have a solid and supportive crew that I can pay well, and that we can tour in a way that's easier on our bodies, and that also we're putting on the best show we
can put on. Like, I want to feel more support in doing the art of performing, so that means I would My goal is to get to a place where I have a small crew, you know, like monitors, front of house, maybe lighting, and my band, and that we can be in a bus and that we can play for a dedicated fan base until I'm old. But also I want to start writing. I think that's like a really important part of my future. I don't want to I want to tour when I put out a record,
but I don't want to be constantly hustling. I'd love to explore writing more and I would love to write a memoir one day and just open up those roads for myself. For me success. I don't have any illusions about becoming this huge commercial success. I don't really like I would. What I want is to feel like I'm I have the tools and the support to make my
art and that I'm a working musician. That isn't Also like just sometimes I think tour is like constant punishment at this level, and I want it to be a little less punishing.
You know, Okay, the goal is direct, but let's snap our fingers. You're in a bus, You're playing to two thousand people a night. You can tour pretty much as much as you want to. Let's say you we hit that hurdle and you can do that to the end of time. Yeah, you think that's going to be happy enough for you? Are you going to say, well, I'm here now, I'd like to get to the next level.
No, no, if you I mean you talk to musicians all the time. Sometimes the most the people that are struggling the most are above that level. And like, I see that a lot, and I don't like. Fame doesn't look great to me. Fame looks terrible. What looks great to me is like se level fame. You know, like your situation.
Your situation is not the average beer. Okay, you made records independently, you put them out on independent records. You're on the major label. Now. Most people never make it to the major label unless they're pop or hip hop. Yeah, and a lot of them. The major label came early yeah okay, and then it went behind. So there's a level of persistence and belief that the average person doesn't have, never mind that almost everybody would have given up along
the way. Yeah, so it's hard. Two things. I've never met an artist who didn't want to have more people exposed to their art. And of course, being an artist, your stuff is out there. You don't really know who's listening, You don't really know how much acceptance is there. But yes, you're moving forward. You're moving forward, You're climbing the ladder. You know, are you going to sit here and say no, I don't want to play Madison Square Garden or say that'd be pretty good?
Yeah, that'd be pretty good.
Right, Okay? And in terms of musicians, you know, as one gains success both critically and commercially, opportunities arise. You're on the road with the bright eyes. But now have there been other opportunities of meeting heroes, whether it's just being in the environment or working with them.
You know, it's been mostly literary heroes, which I've find really interesting. I haven't really connected with that many musicians who are my heroes, but like I've met recently some poets and some writers. Honey f Abduah KiB Me and him did a talk when I was in New York, and I met this poet Ocean w Wang and of course Eileen Miles, who I talk about on this record. That to me is where I really feel like I
am living my dream. When I'm meeting like these types of artists of different mediums, it kind of frees me of like the bullshit of music. Sometimes with other musicians, I feel so like the hierarchies are so a part of the conversation, and there's a lot of sizing up, and there's a lot of like you're at this level. I'm at this level. So I really enjoy being around writers because I feel like all of that goes away.
I don't have to worry about that stuff, which is another reason why I came to Chicago, because I felt like musicians here are not really playing that game, you know, a similar thing with New Orleans. So I haven't really met a lot of my musical heroes.
In terms of these poets and other writers you've met, Has this just been by accident? Have you reached out to them? Have they reached out to you?
Well, with Honi, if it was you know, a set, it was like an event. So my publicist Greg reached out to him and he was he wanted to do it. So I was excited, and then with these other poets, it was like, I, well, one person reached out to me. But then like by chance, I happened to actually meet Eileen Miles, who's a poet that I'm completely obsessed with. So it's been a mixture.
Okay, a couple of times during our conversation you mentioned political things. Yeah, the nature of being a touring musician is you're in all of these communities that a lot of people were writing at infinite and really have no idea what's going on, what is going on in the country.
Jesus, I've been trying to check out. Honestly, I like I've after life on Earth, I you know, especially living in New Orleans and with watching the Insurrection live on TV, I definitely felt like I don't want to be the warrior in this fucking crazy war. Like I felt a very real this is not it's not safe, and it's not good for me to be out trying to convince people of something or rally people in the same way
that I was during Navigator. I felt much more like I have to take care of my my spiritual health, my physical health, you know. So and also more and more I don't understand what's going on with our country because I don't think I'm as online as a lot of the the like, which is the method of like what's drawing up the chaos and the insanity. The America that I see when I'm touring is the people that
are not hiding behind their computer, you know. So I'm just seeing this different these different people, like I'm seeing the person side of them. And it's also felt personally in my travels. It's felt a lot less tense than it was when we were touring under Trump. That was it just felt like that was the first time I really experienced like, oh, you walk into a gas station, It's like we should get the fuck out at this
gas station, you know. And that's after I had toured with like trans people looking crazy all over the Southeast before he before he was elected, you know, and I'd never felt the way I did like when he was president. So it's feeling it's definitely been feeling less tense, less like at war. But also there's just this feeling of like, whatever is brewing, I have no idea what's going to happen with this election, and I'm trying not to consistently check my phone every hour for like a new poll.
I told myself I wouldn't.
And you know, there's some musicians who only listen to their own music, others who are really students of the game check everything out. Where are you on that continuum?
I love to check everything out. I'm definitely a music lover, and I'm really excited about new music. I I feel like there was a period where I really didn't relate, and that was when I was putting out like Lookout Mama. You know, I related to this scene in the Southeast, but that was really it. But now there's just like so many very popular artists in like indie world that I love and I'm really inspired by.
Well, since you say that, give me two.
Adrian Linker, of course, I think is just like one of the best songwriters that's ever lived. Sometimes listening to her music just like makes me sad because I'm like, how did you write that song? But I also love that feeling. I love feeling like damn, how the fuck did you write that? So that's a really great example. And also I've been a huge fan of Ezra Furman
for a long time. She put out a record called Transandelic Exodus right when I put out Navigator, and that was someone that I thought, Wow, we are on the same page, We're the same type of artist. I'd really like to collaborate with her someday. And I just think that record, trans Angelic Exodus is like one of the best albums in like the past decade for sure. It feels like it feels very similar to like Hedwig, also to like Ziggy start Us. I don't know, it just feels like this epic tale, you know.
Okay, Linda, I think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known. It's been great talking to you. Thank you so much for being open and honest. It's been a pleasure.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Next time, this is Bob left Sex
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