Alan Parsons

got the surgery it was. It's now been three weeks and I'm slowly getting better, but it's nice of you to ask. What was the surgery? It was called decompression of L two, l three and l three to l four. If that means anything, which does? Oh, it does. and Are you in pain now? Are you okay? Little, just a little bit? I'm not. I'm not using pain colors and I'm I'm fine when I'm like sitting down or lying down. But yeah, I'm comfortable, perfectly comfortable right now.

So when might we see you back on the road? We have we have gigs in November. Uh, I don't think we're going to make anything happen before then, just to be safe. But plenty, plenty of going on in the in the new year as well. and Are you working now primarily just to have fun or do you need the money? Everybody needs the money. That's true. There's never enough money. Um, I've I've I've been keeping busy

in the studio. Um, I just had delby atmos installed, installed in my studio, so I've been experimenting with that and hoping to do some remixing. I'm hoping that the I robot album we will be the next from the APP cattler. I'm also working with David Pack from Ambrosia. He wants a Delby atmos mix of his first two albums. And I've also been working with the drama of Lenny

Kravitz's band. His name is Franklin Vanderbilt and I've done a whole album with him and we're just we've just got some touch ups to to do on that and then it will be finished. Tell me about your take on Dolby atmos. It's a little soon for me to say because I've literally only had it here a week now and I was I was pretty happy with with five point one and got got very used to it. I mean, it's just more speakers to think about. That's

that's really what it's all about. I mean we've got to speakers and you've got four speakers in the ceiling and you know that that makes a difference, and two side speakers. I'm pointing right. We don't have a video, but you can see. You can see me that nobody else can. Yeah, we've got two four speakers and sitting on two new speakers at side. So I mean, you know,

it's infinitely variable how you how you play sounds. Um, I I found that with five point one, you is, you quickly ran out of ideas about where to put things. You know, what you put in the back channels and what you'd keep in the front channels and so on. But I've I've come to enjoy, you know, multi channel sound generally. So I'm very hopeful that the atmos will

work for me. Well. You know, if you listen to Apple, which most people are listening to to channel, the remixes so far sound in most cases radically different from the originals. Now I'm like, unlike with you, doesn't tend to be the same mixer that it was originally, but the vocals are down in the mix. I mean, we've lived through so many iterations of Saman Mono. Dysteria was a big jump, but quad and all these other things they never seem to ultimately gain holes. Will be interesting to see what

happens with autmost. Yes, Um, I'm I mean it's the Buzzword. I mean everybody in the industry is talking about it. It seems to be the new the new the new fashion and, interestingly, I I'm curious to know why Americans call it at most, because you don't use the word atmosphere, you don't say at most fear. So I'm on. I'm on a a kind of a quest to get people to say atmost, not at most. You can, you can be the first, you can me the first, absolutely okay.

So you have album. Repeat after me, atmos almos close. I'M gonna leave in it that. We'll see what the public decides on if they continue to use at wilser at Muss as sound irrelevant of the moniker and how you pronounce it. So you have a new album from the new world. It's entitled why Now? Why a new album now? Well, I was. I think I was reasonably overdue for it for another album, that the last album.

The secret came out. I think it wast so three years Um and you know, frankly, the the the covid outbreak actually helped because, you know, everybody that I worked with on the new album was was, you know, fully vaccinated or had already got over Covid, and so I was able to work in person with the and so that that worked out, that we worked out really well, whereas, of course, we could not play live. That was absolutely to be in the particularly in one just was a

disaster for everybody. It might might as well not have existed. Okay, reading the credit to the album. You know, multiple studios are used us, blackbird in Nashville. So did you actually go there or were these done remote? We we did the stuff in Nashville remote. There's this h great program called source connect, which allows us to interact as if they were in the room. All we have to do is send them the track and they control their own transport.

But it works out really well and you know, we can point a camera at them on you know, do facetime on a phone whatever, but it's Um, it's great because you save. You Save on Holt Hotel rooms and and hotels, hotel rooms and their fairs. Sorry, and you know that they don't have to travel, so I think they're better off for it. But you're traditionally an analog guy and that's inherently digital. So how do you feel about that? What do you say? I'm a inherently analog guy.

I've been supporting digital ever since ceed first started. Um, I went from you know, mixing in in in digital too, uh, Sony Twenty four track digital, which became Sony Forty eight track digital. No, I've I've been recording essentially digitally for quite a while now. Um. But, having said that, my studio now is although of course I use pro tools

like most people, which is a digital recording format. It's very high very high resolution digital format, but I use an analog console and that's that's a joy for me just to just to do everything like it used to be, you know, setting up mikes and having each each mic on its own analog channel and then then committing it to pro tools. And when did you stop, or did

you ever stop, using tape? Oh, yeah, I think we I think a valid path would have been the first time there was not a tape machine inside, even a digital tape machine. But yes, that that was a good while ago. That was ninety four. So I haven't seen a tape machine basically since ninety four. And what's the difference between your knee analyze, so I'm told? Sorry, I mean two thousand four, not that sounded pretty early very much right. Was Two four. So it was a practical matter.

What's the difference between your analog Nive and a digital board? It's Um, you know, it's just a little more tactile. Every every channel has its own controls, its own sands, its own accues and whereas digital tend to digital consoles tend to group things together and you have to hit a button to to go to a particular channel that you want to modify, whereas on a on an analog board, it's not so much a control surface, but it's a

it's a it's an information giver. It tells you what you're doing at a glance, whereas it on a digital console that's almost impossible to assess. What what every every channel is doing at the same time. And what about the quality of the sound? Well, believe it or not, digital audio is still in its infancy and it gets better every day. Analog to digital converters, digital to analog

converters get better every day. Um. And you know, I think, I truly believe, one day we will just look back on analog tape recording as as a piece of history because we can duplicate it exactly in digital and we'll say what, what, what was? What was wrong with digital in the first place? But it did get better, it really did get better. And what's your take on the vinyl renaissance? It's that's that's really interesting. I mean that that's clearly a move towards the public favoring uh, a pure,

pure signal path to to to the to their systems. Um. Vinyl is Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's the thing you hold in your hand and you can read the cover notes and and but the sound is great, especially the the mastering that's been going on at tough speed to improve the quality. Yet again, I'm all in favor of it and I I just came recently came back, before I went into hospital, from Munich in Germany, where there is clearly a move towards the final the game.

I mean I was looking at looking at vinyl turntables costing a hundred and sixty thousand euros. I mean it's just unbelievable. Let's be very specific. If the path is a digital path and you end up with a digital master, I'm not talking about old stuff for sixties and seven it's not modern stuff. What's the logic in cutting it

in vinyl? That's a very good question. I mean, Um, I think it's just that people are getting back to having a really good stereo system in their homes and, you know, a good a good turntable is part of that. Out of that equation, I think. I mean they might, they might have a CD player as well, but audiophiles are definitely sort of moving towards finyl. There's no question. Well, as an engineer and an expert here, Um, although I

still have all my vinyl, I have multiple turntables, etcetera. It. I talked to the professional community and they say inherently there's distortion and the record for no other reason, the needle moves from the outer groove to the inner groove and it's more of an affectation than the sound being better than digital today standards. Your take on that? You say it's just a fashion thing. Let's go back in the early days of digital and you heard. I mean.

I use this example. I remember having the original back in black, a C D, C C D, and I have a lot of power. I never want to hit the storeship in my system and I turned it up and my ears would bleed. I put on Thet I put on the vinyl and you could feel it in the house would shake. Okay, people, people might say that was distortion, but it was palpable. But now when I listen to things, you know resolution certainly of nineties six, never mind CD quality. All the experts say that. You

know that. I talked to said you like the sound a vinyl, great, but it's not more accurate and the digital original is actually better. But I'm asking you that question for your take. If if the digital original was done at High Ras, like K or o high or even Um, yes, I would argue that that that's the that's the highest quotity you're gonna get. Uh, but uh, for you know, for older recordings, I think I think final. I think the final wins out, despite the pulps and crackles.

You know, we can, we can put up with us. I agree. If it's if it's kind of analog to begin with. That's a whole different thing. Yeah, but a lot of people buying vinyl today, or younger people, were just buying something cutting digital that's been, you know, transferred to vinyl. I don't get it. Yeah, that that is a bit that is a bit weird. But needless to say, the landscape is different in the recording industry than it used to be. I'm talking about the commercial and the

marketing and we used to have a major label. There're a limited number of albums out there. You know, a lot of older acts it's a disincentive. They don't even record new music anymore because they're fearful it won't reach their customers. Is that something that interduce your brain? Very much so. But I'm pleased, I'm very pleased that I seem to have enough lasting power to to at least make albums. I don't sell albums anything like how I

used to. I mean all the Alam Passer's project albums went to at least gold, most amount platinum or even double platinum. But you know, I'm still here. I'm still supporting the Alan Parsons Project by playing live, UH and enjoying it very much. So, I mean it's it is

a warrior. I mean there's a lot of British bands in particular who who just are terrified to put out another album in case it completely stiff h but I've done okay in that respect and the playing live really really does help keep the name, the name alive, even though we don't call it the Alan passons project. We call it the Alan Parsons Live Project, Um, which is kind of a salute to Eric Wilson, who who was the other half of the Alan Passon's project. It was

just just the two of US really. So how do you plan to market the records so your people are aware of it and we'll hear it? I'm much reliant on the label, which is frontiers, frontiers records out of out of Italy. Um, they have a lot of a lot of rock acts on their on their roster. Um. I'm also very aware of the power of social media these days. I mean if if if we post on on our own facebook site, you know it'll get it will get some attention and we can make it reach

other other websites as well. That that that's great. You know that that that's the way to promote something these days. It's it's, it's all. It's all about the Internet. And to what degree you personally active? You have other people do it for you. I do most of the time. I have other people do it, okay, one of one of whom is my wife, one of whom is my son in law. So you have this album with the Italian company. Did they pay for the record? Did you pay for the record? Um, they paid me an advance

and I paid for it. And at the end of the day you're going to be in the black or the red on the record. That remains to be seen. I haven't done the accounts yet. I'm I'm hoping it will be close to break even at least. And what about your royalty stream? How's that doing? Really good. Um, you know, the the analysis project catalog, both both for sound recording and publishing, is very much alive and doing well and it's become it's become something I rely upon. Uh,

it's it's strong, it's great. Do you still own your own publishing? I never did. I never did. It was assigned to two publishers and of course I I own rights to receive royalties on those, on those entities. But know that that I don't own any of my copyrights. So if there's a hundred cents in the dollar, how much that it goes to you? Mm Hmm U. based on a record sale? No, no, no, based on based

on a song. If there's a hundred, uh, freak. You know, an artist might own their publishing, paid administrators somewhere between three and ten percent, the other nineties them. Uh. An artist may have a deal with a publisher and the publisher owns the copyright. They take fifty, the artist who wrote a gift fift also, if they co wrote it. They ends up with so in the in this publishing and a song, how much do you ultimately get in the revenue drink? I think we're I'm publishing. Okay, so

that's good. That's a good number. How about the issue of regaining the Copyright of your Alan Parsons Projects Records? If you go on that road, we've we've done it. We've done what what is called termination, which means that we we we ultimately get get rights to it at a certain point. But I don't think I'll ever literally clawback that all the copyrights. I don't I don't think that's going to happen. But I know it's fashionable to to sell one's one's rights these days. I mean everybody's

doing it and I've been thinking about it. But no, no, no firm decisions yet. What would be your motivation to do it or not to it? Well, it's that it's that big m word again. I mean it's it's money in your pocket. You know. Um, I'm living very comfortably, you know, now, with with the current live shows and the current record sales. But you know, there's a if there's a way of uh supplementing that income overnight, that would be very nice. I'm not getting any younger either.

I mean, you know, I'm seventy three. A Nice little a nice little few million dollars, you know, back in the bank would would be very nice. I might consider buying a second home or something, although, of course, if you'd sold them uh recently and invested the proceeds, with the market crash, you know, that would have worked against you. But okay, so let's go back to the beginning. What were you growing up? Circumstances like? I I was an

only child. Both my parents were musical. My My dad played piano and flute and my mother played a Celtic up and there was always it was always music in my household. My Dad was always playing classical music, which is why my knowledge of classical music is is pretty good. And you know, I I went to good schools in London, prep school called the hall and went on to what the English would call a public school. Uh, but it's

very it's very much a private school. That was Westminster, Westminster School, which was adjacent to Westminster Abbey in London, so very sort of prestigious location. But I left. I left at sixteen. I was considered by a vocational guidance person to be unsuitable to to continue to the age of eighteen in order to go to college or anything. So I left at sixteen, went went to well, before you go there, what'd your parents say when the guy we got into said get out of here? I think,

I think they're supported me on it. When my my school reports were dreadful. You know, he he has no interest in this subject. You know he's he's slacking, he will not, will not do his homework and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was. It was. It surprised me. I thought, Oh my God, Oh my God, I'm going to be hating school for at least another two years. But I really hadn't considered the option of leaving school. And I mean Americans use the expression high

school dropout. I suppose. I suppose that's what I was really but I was a dropout from a public school, prestigious English Public School, you know, right up there amongst Eaton, Harrow, St Paul's, or big public schools as we call them. Um. So I was an unusual was an unusual dropout. What kind of kid were you growing up? Popular, unpopular, loner, into your own things. Usually single kids have their own

unique perspective in life. I had a good childhood. I wasn't bullied at school, if that's what you mean, but I I mentioned I was. I wasn't an only child and I had lots of friends. I did okay. We, my my parents, lived in in an area of London which was was fairly upper middle class, actually a very Jewish area. I'm not Jewish myself, but we lived in a substantially Jewish area and I generally had a good childhood.

I I enjoyed my my my father had a sort of passion for gadgetry and building things and I think that's kind of rubbed rubbed off on me as well, and I I learned. I learned a great deal from him. Needles to say, music was revolutionized with the Beatles in the British invasion. To what degree were you growing up paying attention to popular music and what was your experience? I was very, very into part music. I started taking

a really interesting about Ah. Distinctly remember a friend of Mine Picking Up Oh Carol by Neil Sadaka, whatever year that is. I think that's probably around that time. I was a huge fan of cliff and the shadows, Richard, that is Um and in terms of American music, I was listening to Chat Berry, Buddy Holly, of course. So yeah, I was there. I was there at the beginning of at the beginning of Pop and, to what you know, it was a seismic event when the Beatles came to America.

What was your experience in the UK? I was still at school. Um, I mean I was the biggest beatle fan you could you could ever imagine. I really was very, very, very into their music right right from the beginning, right from from me to you and love me do through to the through to their ultimate breakup. So did you play a musical instrument growing up? Uh, I took piano lessons. I didn't particularly enjoy learning, learning piano from a teacher, I was I was more interested in playing by here

and I did the same for the flute. The good thing about it is it taught me musical notation which I was I might not have been able to to use in later life. I mean I use musical musical notation now to substantial degree, especially for orchestral arrangements and so on. But yeah, it was it was a good thing that I did. I did have piano and flute lessons. Played in an orchestra at school as well. Um Plenty of,

plenty of musical events going on in my chilter. So you pushed out of school at Sixteen and one level your thrilled you don't have to go two more years. What goes from your head then? What you'RE gonna do? I somehow knew that I would be in the entertainment industry somewhere. I given consideration to sound. You know, I didn't really know what what a recording engineer was back then, but I said I to work with sound and I

also considered television. I I actually filled in forms for the BBC, you know, to become a TV cameraman, you know, to be trained as a TV cameraman. But that that, that just went by the wayside and I did a similar thing with e m I that I knew em. I was a big record company. So my first job after leaving school was with the M I was. that a hard job to get because from the outside, you know, people are salivating for jobs like that. It was actually

an apprenticeship scheme, it wasn't you know. I started in a in a research lab which was making television camera tubes, a very technical job. I learned how to do glass blowing, which was interesting, and that that that, you know, just taught me what industry was like. I mean every everybody else in the in the department, that TV Camera Tube Department, was at least ten years older than me. So I was the youngster, you know, but I got on well, I got on all right. And how did you get

from there to the studio? Well, there are two more stages. That the the TV research lab was was in haze in Middlesex, which is west of London, about fifteen miles west of central Lona. Um. I then transferred to a to a department called tape records, which was which was great as far as I was concerned. They were they were they were, you know, very involved with listening to

EMMI product, duplicating EMI product. Um. The Department is actually devoted to manufacturing mono versions of the of their their product on tape on the little three inch or five and little five inch plastic schools, and they were actually very good sounding, very good sounding products. But I worked in that department, you know, helping to maintain tape machines and so on. But then I got into a copying room where Abbey road would send there the latest efforts

down to us to be duplicated for foreign countries. So I was literally one of the very first people to hear sergeant pepper from the master tape, before anybody in the great wide world had had ever even heard of it, and alone listen to it. So how do you end up in the studio? Well, the studio was, thankfully, Um a department associated with this tape records department. That where I was working, and I simply wrote to the manager said I've been working for em I since I'm now

in tape records. I would very much appreciate a visit to Abbey Road to see what see what goes on and if, if there were any vacancies, I'd be very interested. That same week he received a letter. I was invited to an interview and two weeks later I went walked up those steps for the first time and I became a trainee, trainee engineer at happy with the studios. Well, you know, as time went on that was the first step in most studios was the tea boy, but you

were part of a larger system. What was you? What were your duties? into what degree were the instructing you when store in there? I, like most of the bureaud engineers, I started in the tape library, literally just logging in tapes that derived and logging out tapes that people ask for.

Fairly mundane tasks, but it taught me the importance of of correctly identifying what's what's on on the on the tape box, what's on the tape, because it's it's terrifying sometimes to see how how little detail goes into marking up a tape box and I actually ended up writing a book called the Master Tapebook, which which emphasized that that particular importance. So literally, probably only a month in the in the in the tape in the tape library. Then I was allowed to be a fly on the wall.

will fly on the wall for sessions. The Very First Session and I sat in on, was a band called the gods, and musicologists will tell you that, oh, yes, the gods, that was Ken Ken Hensley's first band, which it was, but he was a keyboard player, not a not a guitarist, as he was in your eye heat. So how long was it before you got to touch anything? Oh,

quite quite a while. Um. Well, no, actually I mean you say touching the I was allowed on to touch a tape machine because that's essentially what I was training for, to be a tape operator, assistant engineer. So I got to know, you know, the workings of a of the studio four track machines. Most most sessions were four track. When I first arrived, the Beatles were there doing the white album, just as I right, some of which was

eight track. But it was very, very much a lash up too to use an eight track machine with a four track console. But I got I got to I didn't really get to see any of that. Um, it was sometime later that that I actually got to a record record with Paul McCartney. That was that was years later.

But the Um the experience of of of of training under you know, great engineers like Jeff emeric and Petere Vince, Peter Bawn, Peter Mu Ken Scott who, of course, you will know, went on to be a very successful producer with David Bowie. Um, just just watching, just watching them. And then, you know, I was let loose probably probably two and a half years into my employment at at

at Abbey Road with the hollies. I've done a bunch of sessions with the hollies as as their tape operator, as their second engineer, but their engineer was double booked and they offered me the job for the first time, you know, my first real engineering, engineering GIG, and it went okay. I mean I I listened back to it now and I think, Oh, if only, if only, if only, if only. But it came out pretty good. And were you thrilled just to be in the belly of the beast?

Are Very quickly did that fall away and you were just doing a job? Oh, no, I was. I was totally totally into I know it didn't feel like a job as well at all. I was very, very much into what I was doing and I would I would work, you know, crazy hours in order to just just to enjoy myself. It was the best job in the world. And had anyone taught you how to use the border? You just observed and when the other guy who's double

book you, sat down to do it. Yeah, I mean I I had a pretty good idea how how the console effectively worked. But the Abbey road engineers used to be known as balance engineers, and that's that's really what what the balance engineers did? They deal with the mix between instruments. So it was right to use the word balance. But I yeah, my my, my first ventures into engineering all came from the experience of watching others. Okay, I

have a question. You know, when the Beatle CDs first came out in the eighties, the early albums, everyone was shocked how good they sound, but if you look at the equipment it seems so primitive. Why was the sound so good? Good, good engineering, just solid, good engineering. That's that's what it was all about. I mean it's it's extraordinary that those early albums were done on four track at at best. I think the first album was done,

done to track. So they would record, you know, a backing track based drums, guitars and then they would add the vocals and that was it. That was the that was the master tape. And I'm sure you've heard the so called Stereo versions, early Stereo versions of those albums. All the music is on the left on the vocals are on the right and they call it stereo crazy.

So what happened after the hollies? Well, I started to uh, you know, get more, more work with the hollies, plenty of work with with them, Um, and it was wasn't really very long until H I had until, you know, the dark side of the moon sessions. Really, that was that was pretty pretty soon after that period. Um. But you know, the the the important, the important step that happened between me being a tape up and being an engineer was was being sent down to the Beatles studio

in Savo row to tape up for them. So that was the that was the first Beatles experience, Um, and I was, of course, on the roof for the for the rooftop session, which was magnucent day. I will never, never forget that, um. So I continued after that. I was I was. I spent a period engineering and and tape hopping. You know I did. I wasn't considered a fully fledged engineer really until probably until until that Sut the moon. That's when it that's when it all came together. Okay,

so you're there at the Beatles studio. We just had this exhaustive get back movie. To what degree did you like it, not like it, and did it conform with your remembrance of what happened there? UH, the the letter B movie was was. I found it really sort of depressing. UH, I. I don't think it rep entered what what was going on very well. But I think Peter Jackson's movies is it's not only complete, but it's uh, it gives a much brighter picture of of what went on during that period.

And I'm in it. I'm in get back. You see me credited on screen as Alan Parsons, tape operator. Um. So I was very, very pleased about that. I actually met Peter Jackson a few months before the release and he showed me a couple of clips. It was great. He's he's a lovely guy and very talented and you can't believe the the improvement in quality that he managed to get between the the sixteen mill film and what you see in the in the get back series. And

what was your involvement with the Abbey Road? UH, at the time of the Getty Road, the Abbey road album by the Beatles. Oh, I see, Um, I was tape up. Um, there were two two main engineers, Jeff emeric and Phil McDonald. Um. But you know, I was there interacting with the band occasionally. You know, uh, Paul or John might you know, say

can you play that again, or whatever. So I wouldn't call it establishing a huge friendship, but we we, we were business associate, but a great experience to watch them at work, see how their their minds worked and what they what they could achieve. It was actually interesting that on on Abbey road they weren't often all there together. In tended to be a one, one beetle at a time, coming into Polish off their own their own compositions, and they would have they would have had to be there

together to do the backing tracks. But all the well, the later overdos tended to be solistry, experiences by experiences by one beatle alone. Diesles to say, these are legendary records that the audiences contemplated literally for decades, half a century, and you watch the get back movie and they seem to be so fanciful just writing in the studio and we'll see what goes on. What was your experience of the creative process? Well, you know, I didn't really see

them songwriting. I mean I don't know what their process was for the songwriting. I mean I think it was well established by by Abbey Road that that John was writing his songs and Paul was writing his songs. It wasn't was no longer a genuine Lennon McCartney situation, even though the credits continued to say Lennon McCartney. Um. So I can't really answer what they uh, what, you know, the processes they went through to to write a song.

But I certainly got to see, uh, you know, the ideas they had to make each song different, or two, two, you know too, to make it sound, you know, as good as it does on the on the final mix. I mean there was a lot of work, a lot of work after the basic tracks, on on on everything, including a orchestra for the first time. I think they've never had a really full size orchestra perform on their music before. So how did you get the GIG on dark side of the Moon? I had been previously working

with them on atom up mother. I tape opped the whole the whole thing, until it was mixing time. Um Peter Bawn, their engineer again, very very great engineer. He was unable to do mixing sessions and they very graciously just said, Alan, would you like to have a go at it because you know, you know the music, which I did. You know, I knew, I knew every every note. If they've brought in one of the other engineers it might have been a more complicated process. But yeah, I

mixed it. They were happy with it and that ultimately led to me getting the GIG for dark side of the Moon. Okay, they were had singles, hits. Originally Sidbart was in the band. That didn't translate to America. Then they had all these records on harvest, M A, Gumma, Adam Hart mother. From a outside perspective it seemed the dark side of the moon was definitely a different direction. was that the perception in the studio? Was this just another pink floyd album? It turned out to be such

a Gargagean success. I think everybody recognized it was. It was different and I think at the end of the day, everybody thought it was, without a doubt, their best work today. Um. But I didn't, I don't think any of us, myself included, I thought that would still be talking about it fifty years later. I mean it's it's really unbelievable. And other than operating the board, what were your contributions? Well, Um,

a few bits and pieces. I I came up with the clock's idea for for time because I had previously recorded the clocks in a in an antique shop not far from the studios, Um, which was ostensibly for a sound effects record which which I think got released but sold about ten copies. Um. So that, yeah, we we took all these chiming clocks and ticking clocks and synchronized them all together. Each each clock was recorded separately and just literally pressingly play buttonet at a particular moment to

make them synchronize, um striking at the same time. So that was one little contribution which, yeah, fairly major, fairly fairly memorable section of the album. Um, the the loop on the loop on money was quite painstaking. The assembled we we amassed a number of sounds like dropped, dropping a bag of coins on the on the on the wooden floor in number two studio, tearing up paper the Cash Register, of course. And we we made these continuous loops, but they sounded when the first couple of loops we

tried sounded terrible. There was no sort of rhythm to it and we discovered that the only way to make it rhythmically correct was to actually take a ruler and measure a precise length of tape that would be spliced on to the next similarly measured splicing tape. That's what that's how it ended up. What you hear on the intro and ultimately what they played to. They played to that, that, that that loop. There was no there was no click

track or anything or any metronome. They literally just played to that, to that loop, although it faded out um soon after the intro. They then went free form. Now, if you go online there's pushed back from Roger Water is relative to your contribution by the same talk and he pushes back on everything. Yeah, I mean, you have any thoughts about that? What's saying? Saying that actually saying that my my contribution was was limited or ill or or or essentially that you were just doing what you're

doing would have been successful with anybody. It was really much is about them and that you've been treading on your work there thereafter. Yeah, that's that's that's Roger. Um, I think. Um, I can safely say that David and David and Nick have always been very supportive of of my my various exploits. They've always they've always maintained that I did a nice job on that side man, and so much so that David actually played on a on

a one of my on my first solo album. So what was the experience of being involved in such a successful record? You're a guy who's unknown and then all of a sudden you have the biggest album in the world, and how did that affect your career? Oh, it was very positive on my career. I I was actually offered a job. I mean I had been when the when the album came out, I was on the road with him. I was doing their lives sound as well as occasional

studio sessions. We went back into the studio to do the famous household objects album, which never happened, which never never really went anywhere. But yes, I the phone started

to ring. People wanted to work with me and I was getting into production at at that time seventies, early early seventy, so not not long after the success of dark siloment and thankfully my my earliest productions met with considerable success, and that that was that was the path to producing further acts and ultimately the Alan Pasmer's project. And how did you end up working with McCartney on

red rose speed? Yeah, that was just essentially a an extension of you know, we knew each other from from an Abbey road he he knew of my my work with with Pink Floyd. I think, although I'm not I'm not very good on on comparing dates, but I think, I think I'd probably already done a dark siderment by the time I started working with him. But we were we always got on well. Well, like on Red Rose Speed, with big barn bed etcetera. To what degree? Because this

is a guy who cut records totally by himself. So what was your role on those records? He he, he looked towards his engineers. You know, he worked them hard, or any engineer that's worked with ball will tell him. We'll tell you this. You know he'll he'll he's not particularly technical. He can't, you can't describe in technical terms what he's looking for. He would just say, Oh, let's let's make the snare drum sound better and how I would have moved the MIC. Try a different MIC, try

a different Eq, you know. And Yeah, I think ultimately he probably got the result he wanted. But yeah, he was pretty demanding, pretty pretty you know, working his working his engineers hard. So how did you meet Eric Wiles? Eric had been coming in and out of Abbey Road

as a UM as a producer. He, uh, he, and I I mean I worked on a couple of sessions he was involved with and I sensed his great expertise on the music business and we got chatting and he said, you know, what you need is a manager, and I went, oh, really, I didn't know engineers had or producers even had had managers. But yes, he, he, I was. I became one of the first engineer producers to be to have a manager. So that's that's how it all started. And then literally

in no time after we signed the management deal. Ah, we were looking towards making an album of a gland post stories. A little bit slower heart you okay, you're making managery deal. How do you end up making an album about Edgar Allan Pole story? Where does that come from?

It was it was very much Eric's idea where he had had a passion for for the work of Poe as as a child, as as had I, I mean I i. I read it a whole bunch of his short stories myself and I thought it was a great idea to to make a concept album based on the work of Po Um. We we really didn't anticipate at the time that it would be known as the Alan Pasta's project. The Alan Pastor project was literally just a descriptive term for what, for the album we were making.

I didn't, I honestly didn't think it would become the name of the act. But that's what that's that's what Russ Reagan, the president at the American label, he said. No, I think the act is the Alan paster's project. We're gonna we're going to call it tells a mystery imagination, the Alan paster's project. Yeah, and what did Eric say

about that? Well, he in later life he said that was the the best, best decision he ever made to put my name as the as the artist and he also said it was the worst decision because he he didn't get the the attention or the accolade that that I did. But yes, he often said that in interview. It was my best decision, also my wifet decision. so you decide to make a record. I think it's on flying careers metal label in U K. It's on twentieth century in uh the US. Twenty Century was not a

good label. How did you end up on twentieth century? Um? That was because the band Ambrosia had had signed with Twentie Um. There was also another connection. Twentie signed Carl Douglas, who was the Kung Fu fighting guy. Uh So, essentially, ambrosia Carl Douglas and Eric going to talk to the president at the label and he that was that was good enough for him to to to sign sign us for for the for the first album. Yeah, hits with

Carl Douglas, hits with Ambrosia. Okay, so you were involved with the Ambrosia before the tales of mystery in the marriage nature. How did you get involved with the Ambrosia? Um? That's an interesting story. The the the first I knew of Ambrosia was was a phone call from a guy called Gordon Parry who had been there sort of protege Um.

He was a classical music engineer at Decca and I just happened to be passing the telephone at the commissionaire's desk, the Security Guy's desk, and I picked up the phone said Abro Studios Canna help you, and this voice from Gordon Perry said I'd like to speak to Alem pass and he said yeah, this is ourn and ended up being a fifteen minute conversation, that he would invite me to come down, come over to to Los Angeles to

work with this band. And it just so happened that that phone call came when I was already booked to go to l a for the grammys because I've been nominated for the dark side of the Moon Uh to get an engineering grammy, and during during my visit, I want to hear their album and I love liked it very much, and then the offer came into not not

to stay on and mix. Mixed their album. Then it was a few months later that it was still working progress at that time, but I loved it and mixing their first album led to my producing their second album. Somewhere I never traveled. So the first album again, I think that's their best work, the iconic song of course, just holding on too, holding onto yesterday. What did you do in the mix to make you know, to make it sound so good? Yeah, I I give credit to

the engineers that recorded it. I mean I think it's a nicely, nicely executed mix. Um, I I really can't tell you in tangible expressions what what I actually did. I mean I didn't have any magic magic buttons or magic equipment. The equipment was still fairly primitive in those days. Digital delays and so I'm still still hadn't really hit the hit the market, but it was, it was. It was a nice recording. You know, the violin part it's

lovely and David Pack did a great vocal. so you decide to make this record with Eric Wilson about Edgar Allan Poe. What are the next steps in terms of creation of the music, getting a record deal, casting the record?

Walk me through that. Well, we, uh, we did the deal with with Rassrigan of Twentieth Century at the Music Conference in Cannes in France, which is called me dam, and essentially we had we had a meeting with Russ and told him, told him that we had this idea to make a record based on ground post stories, and he loved the idea and essentially said yeah, off you go, here's a check, which is great, and it's it's, it's it's interesting when he when he first heard the album,

I think he was which we also did in France, that was in Paris. He he actually used the words I like it, but I don't love it, but that was that was on the first hearing. And then after hearing it a few more times, he said, Oh my God, this is the best albumue best album I've ever heard. You know, he totally changed his stance on that. I did one and half the album of being instrumental, on

the other album being a traditional slam based rock record. Um, that was probably more of my my influence than anything else. I mean, historically I've I've been, you know, much more responsible for for instrumental tracks than than vocal tracks. But of course a lot of a lot of that time is taken up by the fall of the House of Usha, which is a purely orchestral piece. Um, that's that's something I I really enjoyed, you know, putting a classical org

strip together for music I'm I'm responsible for. So that was that was really that was a big moment Um. Yes, you know there there are various orchestral and instrumental interludes in the album which, in commercial terms, they they're not they're not considered necessary in commercial terms. And when we eventually signed with Clive Davis, he was always looking for hit songs. You know, you were never of considered an

instrumental track for a single. But yeah, I think in the early, early periods of the APP tells Mry I robot pyramid, I did make a a more substantial contribution as a as a as a composer, particularly for the for the instrumental tracks. And on that album you have Arthur Brown, of the crazy world of Arthur Brown. How does he end up singing? A partner of a business

partner of Eric's, knew him. Um It was. It was a great, great afternoon when he came into to sing the tell tale heart he uh, we played we played him Eric's guide vocal, which is incredibly simple. That you should have seen him running it alone. But then the night you know, and he heard it and it's very down to earth and so yeah, I think, I think I've got it, goes into the studio, goes onto the mic, we played the track and then suddenly it's wow, it was.

We were really worried that he wouldn't he wouldn't find himself, he wouldn't find his crazy world for our track, but he very much did and I think it's a standout, standout track on the first album. Love it. And then how did you end up using John Miles? He'd have a pre existing relationship with him. I did. Yes, we had a big success with his his first two singles and his first album. UH, sadly not in America, but we did incredibly well with John and in the UK

and the rest of Europe. Incredibly talented his singing. Sadly we lost him a few months ago. He died of cancer just, Oh, I don't know, three or four months ago, um. But I always regarded him as a great singer and that's why I invited him back on several occasions to sing other songs and tell me about the use of the vote order on the Raven. The vote Codea was actually an e m I creation. Um, there was a big audio research department at as where I where I

worked had worked earlier, um in that TV camera department. Um, they they came up with this box that we had kind of asked for. We said, how can we, how can we add a vocal to an instrument and make it sound like it's one thing, and there was this Um, there was a series of stories on on record. That was called sparky's magic piano. I don't know if you I don't know that one, though it was it was an American productive, but there was literally a talking piano.

It's very it's very cleverly done and I think we, we all hoped that that that's what it would achieve. But in the end it it just made a voice sound very electronic and it worked well for the Raven. I mean we we spent a long time touring and throwing trying different buttons, different settings and so on. But Um, I think it I think it was pretty much the first, first foe CODA used on a on a on a record. So you have this very extensive cover, hypnosis, cover, uh,

in the UK. In America, I don't think there's a gatefold at all, and then shortly thereafter the album just says a cover of you on it. Yeah, well, I was furious about that. That really was. And when when people give me that set, that second simplified sleeve, to sign, I I kind of go a grunt, grunt my disapproval. You know that you should have the original cover, not this cover. But no, that the the the gate, the

gate field did exist, I think, worldwide. It was very extravagant, chasing paper between pages and stuff, and it wasn't it a very lavish package, but it was great. I loved it. Okay, I love that album. I bought it originally as a Provo and they had an unlimited supply at my store and I would buy them for other people. Huh, what was the perception of success on that first album for

your from your viewpoint? I mean I was I was amazed and I thought it, you know, we thought the album was good, but we thought it literally fall by the wayside, you know. But you know, we're a new act.

We have high hopes and but the success of tales of mystery and the sect, the continued success of the act through, you know, several other albums with with Arista, I I have never ceased to be amazed at the success and was always slightly trepidacious shall we say, but it was always great news that, you know, it was getting on playlists and that it was it was, you know, actually shifting copies out of record stores. It was always it was always a great relief and and you know,

I was proud. I was very proud. So you have one record on twentieth century. How do you end up bouncing from there to Aosta? Well, the first album deal much too much to Russ Reagan's Chagra, I think, was Um. It was just a single album deal. So we were we were free to go go to anyone. Um. You know you don't, you don't, you don't take a called

meeting with Clive Davis Likely, but that's what happened. He invited us to dinner in London, famous, famous restaurant called Lorenzo's, and essentially he he said he wanted to sign us for a multi album deal and not soon after that meeting, I think, Eric flew to New York and did the business and there we were. We were signed to Aristair for our for our second album, I robu so. At the time he Arista was still just starting. He had

Patty Smith. There was a lot of goodwill, even though he gotten fired he'd written his book, but his time went on. As you referenced earlier, he was all about hits and he was famous for meddling with the music of artists. Now ultimately ended up being with, you know, top forty artists who may not have even written the songs. What was your experience working with Clive Davis? He he always wanted to, you know, a single of every album. He want wanted to make sure that it was commercial

in his eyes. He would always suggest edits. He would he would even have his own people do do edits, some of which worked well, some of which sounded absolutely horrible. But he yes, he liked he he liked to be close to the music. You know, really, you know, identify buying the structure of a song and saying, you know, the the chorus, the chorus doesn't happen until a minute and a half in. We needed to happen less than a minute in, and stuff like that. But you know,

you can't, you can't argue. He knew what he was doing. He had he had the ear for hits. You ready do so you would listen to him, you would change the songs. will be okay with that. It was usually a compromise. I never, I never put anything out that I was actually, you know, actually unhappy with. No, we, we, we, we, I. I don't know what's how to put this really we. Uh. Oh, I think we just kept each other happy. I mean we, we would come if they were compromise was necessarily on

a on an edit or. Uh. He never, never sought to have US Remix, which, of course, labels are famous for telling acts to remix their songs, but he never did that. Just just the structure, just, you know, when the chorus happens, when the Solo. We had a long solo, for example, on Games people play, and we cut that down and I was I was fine with that and it was. Yeah, it was mutual decisions on on the edits and I think both of us were happy in the end. I don't think. I never put anything out

that I was seriously unhappy with. Now, it wasn't like every album I had hits on it. There were ups, there were downs. was He ever angry with you or lost faith in you or you felt like a second or third class citizen? No, no, I always had a great relationship with client. H Never, never a harsh word. Okay, and then ultimately serious becomes the Chicago Bulls the anthem, it becomes sports the anthem. Did that happen totally independent of you? And what did you think of that? I

had absolutely no idea. It certainly wasn't written as a as a sports team. It was. It was written on a fairlight computer instrument which was very high tech back in the early eighties, Um, and it was just an intro to tow eye in the sky. Ah, that somebody at the at the Chicago Bulls said this will this will make great walk on music for Michael Jordan. And if that happened and several other sports teams followed, it

baffles me. I mean I think I think it works great, but it certainly was not the last thing on my mind that it would be used for sports. But it continues to be used to this day. It is that lucrative. The fact they do. It's lucrative in terms of TV advertising,

use on TV shows. American idol, for example, use it occasionally, um, but sadly when it's used in in sports games, in stadiums and so on, no, there is no there is no record of it, there's no there's no money change hands because it just goes into a big pot which is shared by all, all musicians and writers. No, B M I as cap so on, um C sack, which is the society I'm with. They would be angry if I hadn't mentioned that. Um, yeah, it's just just goes

into this general pot. It's not considered a a sink license. That's what that's what's valuable to to a writer and a musical act to get what is known as a sync license. That means pictures. The sound has to be licensed to go with a picture and considering that the you know, ball game really is all about the people on the court, not not, not, not a video. So you're making all these records. They come on under the moniker Alan Parsons Project. What do you do and what

does Eric Do? Well, we we both. We both came to the studio in the early stages of each album with with what we worked on on our own leading up to that first day. Um Eric would usually usually have a cassette with a rough version of the song as he saw it at the time. Um, I also made demos. By the time, by the time I and the sky came along, I was I was back in London, having lived in Monaco for a couple of years. Um, yeah, we just came in and sort of say here's what

I've got, what have you got? And then we would collaborate and I was famous for changing the structures of his of his songs, you know, or changing the key or changing the temple or whatever. Um. That's sort sort of borne out by the recent releases of box sets which include Eric's songwriting diaries, as we call very sort of basic piano and vocal versions of songs, almost bearing no relationship to the final products sometimes. So would one

say that he essentially wrote all the songs? I'm slightly reluctant to say that he wrote all the songs because there were there were occasions when I made very definite co Co writing compositions, Co writing contributions. But yes, I mean he was. He was a talented songwriters, he um, and part of that talent as a songwriter was the

the ability to write lyrics. I wasn't strong lyrics. So I would I would say that, if you want to break down the music and the lyrics into proportions, I would say Eric was, you know, maybe the musical composer. Maybe maybe the musical composer but of the lyrics would would be composed by him. I probably contributed one line or two during during the course of ten albums. So like when you talked about the first album, you talked

about the instrumental second side. That was your thing. Did you actually compose that, or did he compose that, or did you do it together? It was I think I could give Andrew Powell who. Who? Who actually orchestrated it and made it, made it performable. It was designed to be. It was designed to echo a piece by Claude Debussy, who had written a piece called the House based on the same story on the foot of the house of us.

I think it was unfinished and we we kind of borrowed from from Debussy in a couple of places and I think it's magical. I think it's a it's very debussy, if you if you know, if you know his music. Um, but it was we took a risk. Were, you know, seven or eight minutes of orchestral music opening the second side of an album. That that was pretty risky. I think. Now, ultimately there's a dispute with Erasta and you deliver a quick album to get out of the contract, which ultimately

doesn't come out at that time. What went down around then? Um, Eric was always, always the businessman and you know, I I told you I never had a harsh word with Clive Davis, but I think, I think carrick probably did with Clive and with the business affairs people, and that the relationship went somewhat sour after the after the EV album, and the guy probably the gaudy album as well, and we just made an instrumental contractual obligation album and that

ultimately resulted in a lawsuit which got settled out of court and we resigned. So there was a happy ending to it. But the album in question, the Sicilian Defense, is quite definitely my least favorite album of all time by any artist. Okay, so you make tales of mystery and imagination. To what degree you are you still getting calls to produce an engineer, and how do you handle those? I get get a lot of calls. I get I get sent, you know, CDs or sometimes a little memory

six with people's music. All the time. There's there's no shortage of work for me. It should should I choose to take people up on it, but I keep busy with just the things I generate and but even back in the seventies, same thing. You were making the transition. Um, yeah, well, I was. Yes, I I had a couple of production acts that I was successful with. Pilot was one John Miles, who we've already mentioned. I also did the three albums with El Stewart, which did very well. So I kept busy.

I was never, never board. But you weren't saying now I'm an act, I don't want to produce records anymore, or did you eventually say that? Oh No, no, no, I was always even with the Alan Passon's project, I was the producer and that that was that was a given. I'm talking about third parties, third parties. Yeah, I was,

I was. I was happy to be to take on production work with with other artists, but I couldn't take on everything that was offered, clearly because the project kept me busy and things like pilot, John Miles and Al Stewart took up a lot, a lot of my time. Okay, so we hit the twenty first century, you end up releasing a course for engineers. How does that come together and what exactly is it? It's called the arts and science of sound recording. We spent two years assembling a

DVD course. The DVD was the was the format of choice as we prepared this, this series of videos. Um. It stemmed from a similar project that my partner in the in the venture, a British guy called Julian Kolbeck, who who I first met as a as a musician on a session for a band I was working with. Um He had done a similar um educational project on on VHS tape, probably probably a full ten twelve years earlier and he just came to me and said would you like to make a you know, a video recording course,

and I said Yeah, I'd love to do that. He said, I don't think it'll take very long. We'll probably we'll get an advance from somebody and it will take about three months to put together. We didn't realize that it would be two years and nine hours of of educational stuff, but it was fun to do and it's still very much alive. It's still being used not only by interested individuals but by bye by schools, colleges you know, that have engineering courses. So if one watches it, what will

they take from it? Hopefully, um give them a better idea of what goes on in a recording studio. Uh, I mean, I think a lot of people think the recording studio is this mysterious place where you you go and play your song and then out pops a CD out of a slot, you know, at the bottom of the studio equipment. You know, people, people just don't really don't really understand what goes on. Uh, it's it's very difficult to represent a recording session in such a way

that it's that. It's but it's interesting. I mean, being a fly on the wall in a in a studio recording is it's incredibly uninteresting. It's it just seems that the tape keeps rolling and everything sounds the same and it goes on and on and on. But we we try in this series, I think, to to you know, to take to lift the veil and show people and

what really happens. You know, how how a vocal is recorded and compiled, how you achieve certain drum sounds, keyboard sounds, guitar sounds, um it's and it's it's designed to be useful to two novices as well as experience engineers. So we we, we, we worked quite hard to try and make it entertaining as well as informative. How did you end up living in the United States? When did you come here and how did you end up in Santa Barbara?

I had bought a house in Montesito, which is a adjunct to to Santa Barbara, back in the nineties, with my ex wife and my two sons. Um It became clear that my ex wife was not was not comfortable in America, so we went back to the UK. Yeah, AH, then, and soon, soon after uh, we got back. I I met Lisa, my my my now wife, and we I decided I wanted to to live with her and she had to two daughters and she came to she came to the UK for a while. We we lived in

a house just outside London. You met you met her were. I met her in Maryland. Maryland, a big shard there in Mary Maryland. I'm trying to think of the name. It merryweather post. Merryweather Post, you got it, that's the one. That's where we met. And so when we decided we were going to live together, we we considered all the options. I think we all said California was the most likely and because of my previous experience in Santa Barbara, I really liked. I really liked Santa Barbara and and do

to this day. So in two thousand and three we got married and the rest is history. And how did you end up deciding to build a studio? I really did not build a studio to the same specification as the one I now have. Until until I did build this one, I I was just working in rooms in

a in our in our house. A valid path was just literally done in a two adjacent bedrooms and I think I resisted because I knew, I knew how expensive, you know, building a studio is, and the one I'm speaking from now is, no exceptions, cost a great deal of money. But I'm I'm really glad that I did do it because the the work that I did in the early, early years of my solo careers Um I think,

suffered through not having a decent studio. But I'm really, really delighted with the results I'm getting in this in this new studio. Now, if one goes online there's a whole website for the studio. It seems like it's in the middle of nowhere in Santa Barbara. How did you end up with that property? Is a continuous with your home property what's the story there? Um, the home studios have always has always been. Yeah, Home Studios Really, really

not very not very extravagant equipment wise at all. If I if I, if I needed a proper studio, I would, I would go go to a commercial studio to work. So it became it was more of a sort of environment to listen to stuff, composed stuff. Um. But yeah, I'm really glad that I made the decision a couple of years ago to build, to build this new studio. I'm very, very, very happy with it and it's now state of the art because I've put this new system

which everybody in the industry is talking about, Delby atmos. Okay, but the property. That's fun. Did you already own that property? Yes, yeah, we bought. We bought this House in Oh five and we've been been there here ever since. But seventeen years in the same house. I've never done that before. The studio is not attached to the house you live in. Correct, correct, it's it's an outbuilding. You know, if you go online, it seems, and I've got another email, seems like you're

looking for third parties to book your studio. Are you into what degree or people using it and I regarded as being fairly, fairly new as a as a commercial studio. Um. I've I've had one or two clients in here, um that seemed to enjoy themselves. It's Um, I I don't, I don't let anybody in. I like to meet them and talk to them and find out what they want to do rather than just do it on a on

a strictly business basis. I won't do that and I'll only I'll only have clients in here, if you can call them clients, when I know that I'm not not in need of studio time myself. Now, you know, so many studios have gone out of business. There's not only the song costs of the building and equipment. You have to continue to update the equipment. There's ongoing equipment costs. Has that been your experience? How you know you have to budget for that? Yes, I mean it's not just

recording equipment, it's musical equipment. There's always a new scent, there's always a new microphones to check out, which baffles me because you know I've I've been making perfectly good, good recordings with with my existing mic collection. I really don't need any new ones. Because they're they're never substantially

different from the best microphones in my in my cupboard. Um, yeah, there's a there's a certain need to budget for new stuff, but I'm just as likely to buy a new scent or a new guitar as I am to buy a new preempt for the studio. So, prior to the Internet era, the business was cohesive. There were a limited number of labels. If you were on a major label you were far down the food chain. So at this point in time, do you feel part of the larger business or you

really just in the Alan Parsons Business? MHM, I've I've kind of lost touch with the industry. I Um, when I was making albums with Ariston, we were constantly in touch with press people, marketing people, so on and so Um. Having said that, I'm I'm doing the occasional interview to promote the album which comes out this week. Um, but really it's not not, not a strong relationship with with

labels anymore. Of course, for live shows I have to deal with agents, promoters and that kind of stuff, but in terms of the recording industry, not, not, not very in tune with it, with what's going on. Don't don't spend a lot of time listening to modern music and you keep in touch with all the people from the past, or you're pretty much a homebody just doing your own thing. I tried to. I try to stay in touch the people I've worked with in the past. John, of course,

I've already mentioned, died sadly a few months ago. We were we were always good friends, always in touch with each other. Um, David Pat from Ambrogier has been a good friend ever since the ever since the first album, or my first album and his first album, which were released close to each other. Colin Blunt Stone, I bumped bump into now and again. Last time I saw him was on a cruise, you know, music cruise. Um, I never saw Arthur Brown again after after tales of mystery,

but there we are. Um, yeah, I mean I I try to try to keep in touch with people who are ultimately responsible in part to my success. So I would always be grateful for that. Well, you have this new album, Alan. I wish you continued success and thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me. You're very welcome, Bob. Thank you. Look forward to hearing this on the you bet. Until next time, this is Bob leftslet's h