Al Schmitt

mean it goes on. There's so many of them, said I look up, Okay, some of the great jazz records you know, Bill Evans and and uh, Jerry Mulligan, Chet Baker, those kind of things. Yeah, those very Let's drill down to literally one of my, if not my favorite record of all time, which is Jackson Brown Lead for the Sky. Right. You started working with Jackson on his second album, right

Try every Man. How did that come together? Well? What happened was he was working in another engineering and they were having problems getting a mix on it and he called me and uh, I had just finished I think the Dave Mason album alone together. Yeah, but he called me and and said, you know what, I give it a shot. And he knew you from alone together. Yes, okay, so h yeah, so we got along really well. I

mixed the record. It came out very nice and came out so then when he was getting ready to do Late for the Sky, he called me and asked if I would co produce it with him, and I said sure. So that was it. Okay, So you're both a producer and an engineer. Explain the difference of your roles in the capacities. Well, a real producer is the guy that UM hires, the contractor who lives to musicians. UM looks for the material if the artist is not a songwriter,

trying to find songs for him. Fortunately with Jackson, he wrote all his own stuff. UM. A producer overseas everything make sure that everybody's on time, and you know, budgets are being taken care of and and uh and kind of as a director on a film, similar to that, an engineer is the guy that captures all the sounds, the vocals, the guitars, the drums. He's the guy that's got to get it and make it sound good and make it sound very musical and and pleasant to the

is hopefully okay. But on a record, because there are a number of records you were producer, especially in the seventies. What roles did you perform on those albums that were different from being an engineer? When when I was just a producer in the U, I guess it was the mid sixties. On. My job then was to I had eleven artists, um, and they went the Sam Cook, Hugo Montenegro, Um, the women Folk, Glen Yarborough, UM. I just went on and on. H So my job is to put put

in budgets for each album. Back then most artists did two albums a year, not like today. So I had to put in budgets for the artists. For the albums I had the artist that didn't write material, I had a fine material for So every Monday was publishers State of all the publishers. Well, let's go back just a couple of steps. You said you had eleven acts. How did you end up with eleven x M? R c A said you think these guys okay? So at the time you were on staff at r CU, I was

a stand producer. When what was your tenure at r c A from when to win as a stand producer? Well, I think I became a stand producer in nineteen sixty one and I was there until I left I think sixties six seven. Okay, Now in that era seven, what I know, to touch the board you have to be a union guy, right, absolutely, And that's why I went on became a producer. I couldn't touch the board anymore. And when I did, I get called up on the

carpet and they would say, don't do that anymore. And okay, So you were at r c A from like sixty one to the late sixties as a producer as a producer, but you were literally working for them, yes, okay. After that you went independent, right okay? And then before that are you independent? Um? Yes? Okay? So what made you decide to go to work for r c Actually, before that I was not independent. I had worked for Radio Recorders,

which was a recording to them. That's how I got involved with henrw Mancini and UH and the Peter Gun record and UH and I wound up then doing all of Hanks things recordings and that's when r C A

opened their studio. They hired me. I was the first higher to work in the news studios at r C A. And it was on the corner of the Sunset and Vine and he had a long time the seven NBC building, right, Yeah, And it was when I was working at was they had the National News at night or the late news at night, and you bet your life and crowdcho I would crowd almost every day down in the hallways. And every time you go buy mumble something, have me laughing

all the magic word of the day. Um so. But at the time, our CIA was headquartered in New York, right, yes, Okay, so that you were when you came on as a producer, you were in the West Coast, was there? You were the first producer on the West Coast? No, I was the first engineer I hide on the West Coast. Yeah. I wasn't producing at that point. I was just engineering. So you worked for our CIA as an engineer or a salary right, and then once you became a producer

you couldn't touch the board anyway, exactly. Okay. How long did you work for them before you became a producer? Uh? And a half years? And what caused the switch? Um? What cause the switch was people would ask for me on dates all the time as an engineer, and I'd be the engineer and they'd come in and produce a committee behind the phone for threality. And I was doing all the work, talking to legal musicians, and we knew everybody. And if you make a mistake, you know we're on

the honest system. Raise your hand. You know this guy's talking to book or or a bookie or something. He's not paying attention to what's going on here. So and they were getting all the credit and everything, and I thought, uh, so I went to my boss, my boss at that time, with Steve Scholz. And Steve is the guy that signed Elvis Presley r C A. Yeah, he was major guy at at r C and I was he in New York, Rilla.

He was part of the time New York, part of the time in l A. At this particular time, it was in l A. So I went and I talked to him. I had gotten an offer from Bill Putnam, who owned the studio. Um he was getting ready to kind of slowed down, I guess, and he was going to hire me from r C A over the United and uh and so it at lot more money than I was making. So I told Steve that I wanted to be a producer and and uh, if if I

didn't get a promotion, I was going to leave. So we worked out a deal that okay, they who do that, but I have to bring in an engineer and break him in on all the Mancini dates, you know, because he was the top guy then and you know. And so I said, fine. So there was a guy at Ready Records that I knew, Jim Malloy, who later on became a big time producer in country music and one Grammys and did the Paint Panther record and quite a

few other things. But but he had a lot of talent and nothing was going on with him there, and and I liked him, so I talked him into coming over and then on all the early charade and those things men say, anythings that he did, I sat next to him and showed him how I set up and what I did. And then then I was able to uh move into doing just producing and uh and I got away front it. Okay, okay, no one could be as good as you. But how long did it take to get Malloy up to uh the right level? I

was with maybe three big sessions quickly. Yeah, it was pretty quick. He was. He was really good. Okay, so now you're going to be a producer. Okay, you're not going to touch the board anymore. Tell us how you end up with eleven acts? Well, they give they wind up giving me acts, you know, And that's that's the first thing. Um. The first record I made that I produced was by H. H. B. Barnham Um and we did a thing called take Me Out of the Ballgame, and we did a funky version of that. It was

just the start of the season we put that out. Then. Uh. Then I just wound up getting um artist given to me, you know, like, Um, I went to dinner one night with Steve Olds and and and and like the big Posts from New York Show The Imperial and Eddie Fisher. The next thing I know, I'm producing Eddie Fisher. So you know, I was. It's not my kind of thing that that I wouldn't go out and normally buy an Eddie Fisher record. Uh, but this is it. So I just went what about trying to make the best record

I could with Eddie Fisher? Okay, So did they have you signing any acts? I could? And and uh I did. I turned one or two small acts for small percentages, but nothing ever happened. Okay, So you're working for our c A. You're totally on salary, totally okay. So the record hits, you're not getting any more money, Yeah, yeah, you do. You get you can make five thousand dollar bonus at the end of the year, and I made

that every year. So I went from making as an engineer because you out it over time, seven thousand a year after was a lot of money, very very good, to seventeen thousand, five hundred salary and five thousand as a bonus. So five was it was the dream there. The dream was to be a producer because they were the guys that were getting all the glory stuff. You know, you think, oh, yeah, that's producers. They got all of uh, the authority they hired, you know, I don't know whatever

it was. It was a and something I always wanted to do, and when I got into it, I wasn't sure that when I was doing it that this was really what I wanted to do and that that story evolves a little bit. Okay, So you're now the producer to what degree? You know, over the last fifty years, things have varied, been the error of the producer, in the error of the engineer producer. So when you were the producer other than making sure that your God was

getting the sound right. And you're in the studio, what kind of input would you give? Well, I was the guy that hired the arranger. You know, Nels had Nelson Riddle for the first date. Um, I found a song Faddy. After going to maybe two thousand songs, I found one I thought that might be able to work for him, and we did. It came out and uh it uh. It made the top twenty uh and and uh singles uh and it kind of brought him back a little and helped that way. UM, what do you do you

you you you have an artist. So if he writes songs, then you figure out, all right, let's hear the songs. You figure out which the best songs are and which ones you want to do. UM. If he doesn't right, then you have to look for material for him and find songs that that he could do. UM. For the reason I is being in the studio myself a fraction of the average engineer. Never mind yourself. I find most engineers are relatively passive. They'll do what the whatever the

act says. And I find that the producer is the person who tends to say, whoa that doesn't work. Who Yeah, that has to change. Is that accurate? Yeah, that's very accurate. Um. You know, if I'm the engineer and there's an artist here and a producer next to me, David Foster or whatever, he's the boss. You know, it's like a director of film. The producer is the boss. So he wants me to do something. I can explain why. I don't think it's a good idea, but if he insists, I do it,

you know, but I want them in front. Okay, So you're producing in the early sixties. Uh, is everybody cutting an album or you had doing just singles or what? It's a little of both, mostly albums. Almost every artist had two albums a year, you know. So yeah, it was when you have a lot of artists. Hugo Montenegro I had at that time. Um, god, Wellegro did? That's right? Is that your record? Now? I did right right after that. I worked with him. Okay, to think, so you're working

with those acts. How much pressure do you get from New York City to have a hit? Um? Yeah, you get. You get pressure from everybody to have a head, including yourself. You know, this is what you're striving for. You know, especially with like someone like Eddie Fisher who had not had a record in a while, hadn't had done anything or whatever. I went to a band. You you want to get something that will get played on the top forty radio stations and you so you're trying to find

something that's commercial, maybe sing along kind of thing. And and then of course to hire somebody like Nelson Riddle to do the arrangement. And and he was quite a big help on it. Uh yeah, it's it's not not easy. So tell me about a Monday being publishing day. I be on Monday would be publishing day. I'd I'd come in. Uh, I'd see four or five publishers that day. They'd come over.

I had a turntable there, and uh they would bring these songs and put them on and and listen and you know, maybe make a note on something that I put a hold on the song for an artist that I was thinking about. Uh so that would be it. And they'd be there a half hour forty medicine, next guy show up and I do that. And that's but you know, someone who's listening to material, that's usually a very tedious process. It is it is, and they hit

the ship ratio is very low. It's that. Yes, there's a lot of a lot of crap, you know, And that's that's the thing, uh, trying to get through things. Now, today demos tend to be highly produced. What were the demos like back then? Demos were reveling rough. Sometimes the demo just be voice and piano or guitar and and voice, or sometimes uh just a small rhythm section done in a little fucking studio. That's that's pretty much how the demos aura. So they only started. Demos only started getting

better when some of the demos was starting to become hits. Right, do you remember any demos it became hits a lot of things. You know. The other thing is sometimes today with very produced demos, then they redo and it's just not as good as the demo. Absolutely, Oh that and a lot of OCAs. Okay, so let's let's go back. Okay. How often would you listen on Monday and go, man,

that's a hit? Yeah? Well, I bet I listened to uh songs for Eddie Fisher before I found the one song that I thought had a chance to be a hit. So I called Eddie up right away, drove up to his house played he yeah, okay, and uh I called Nelson Riddle find out when he was available book the studio. Uh let Nelson have his whatever he wanted on the date, and that was it. We went in. We cut two songs and uh, well, how did you know? What was this about? The song that you knew would be the

right way? It was at a time when these sing along songs we were becoming popular, you know, um, and people that you know, you could sing along with it and that'd be the singer and then the choir would come in or the background voices. Um, and it had that feel to it. You know. It's just kind of it was called games that people play. And Okay, when you're in the studio and you're working, do you know when something's a hit? Um? Yeah, yeah, you know with yeah,

you say, okay, this is a hit and then it is. Uh, then you write a per center a time on that. But there are other times when I mean I made a record with Dr John Tommy Lapoma produced it. Uh, keep the music simple. It was a single. We did the album and all that, but this was keep the music simple. And if we all I thought it was a smash when out there and died. That's when it

was on Atlantic. No, no, no, it was one of others. Okay, because I find there's a very thin layer of stuff that's like an eleven we go this you and you know, yeah, and then below that you can be surprised. But there's a certain level. Okay. So you're working with Eddie Fisher, who else you're working with in the early sixties, you hear him and Monterey He'll go, I did an now want him called Russian Grandual where we did all the great Russian uh composers on an album. Uh, the Limelighters.

I was working with the Limelighters. That was kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah. He was a manager Ken who later managed Benson. Yeah. So okay, you're cutting an album at that point in time. How long does it take to cut an album? Back then? Very short period of time because we didn't have all the things that we have today to tuning and all those other things. So you captured a performance. We would always get in the three hour session. We get to three songs done and uh, three ours. What was the

equipment like then? The equipment was great. We were going to tape obviously, and it was becoming you know, multi layer tape right then we were up to track something U so we had plenty of that. Uh. He would do three songs or four in a three hour date and everything was done at the same time, so there was no overdubs back then. It was all done live and what you got, you know, it was it was Elvis, That's what you got. Uh. Did you work with Elvis? I did on his first record out of the Service

g I Blues. That was amazing. He was really cool. Well, yeah, he was great. It's the first time in the studio that I ever worked like on one artist twelve hours straight where we had foodsin in and we didn't go out. We didn't do that and it was nice. There was a lot of fun, a lot of joking around. My assistant who collected the toquis uh jewelry. Elvis had a a bracelet turcoise and my assistance had got us a beautiful he said, he said, my sister, yeah, I collect that,

and he said, well, that's really a nice one. Elvis took it off and gave it so I said, Elvis, yeah, I said about the car in the garage because he had a rose roice. He laughed. We all laughed. You know. But he gave him the brace and well that was he the type of guy some people like that it don't write the row material of the singers. They don't really show up until everything's arranged. Was he the guy who was in the studio. He was there all that

all day. He loved hanging out with the guys. He loved hanging out with the singers, you know, the musicians. He was a fun guy to be around. And back then he was just out of his servance. He was in great shape and you know, great sense of human life was great for him. And how how much input did he have into the recordings? Quite a bit? Really, yea, quite a bit in a sense, well in a sense that the tempos made sure that the tempos who are right uh for him? M yeah, he would he'd have input,

not him, but yeah, and he would. That was the other thing. They would all work together on things, and you know, hey, what if we did this or what do we you know? And as I said, we were doing usually four songs and three hours. Here I am in the studio twelve hours and we may get one or two things done, you know. But it was Elvis and he's using his band yeah, yeah, yeah, these guys. Yeah, okay, so in the sixties prior to the Beatles hitting any other you work with Eddie Fisher, you had to hit

with him. Any other memorable experiences, Oh god, as a producers and engineers producer, Yeah, I did. I did a great album with Paul Horn and Lala Scheffrin called The Chess Suite on the Mass Text, which one two Grammys. Uh. We did the Catholic Mass in chazz form and and that was we We got put down on that at first. And there's a priest in New York, father O'Connor, who was called the Chairs Priest, and we got him to write the line of notes. We got that done. Yeah,

he did. He heard it in the road to Line of Notes and yeah, as I think Lolo, you know, Lolo won a Grammy and so did Paul and so was Jefferson Airplane. Your first rock act. Yeah, that was my first real rock act. I produced a group called the Astronauts and had some modern hits with what was the hit of the Astronauts baja right? I did them, and then I did a group called the Liverpool Five,

British group from Liverpool. R c A didn't have a British act at that time, so we signed the five guys and they were really good, but they just nothing ever happened. Okay, So Jefferson Airplane, you make the first Jefferson Airplane with Sidney Anderson as opposed to Yeah, I didn't do that one, you did? No, No, who did

that one? That? I think Dave Hassan when I they sent me up to see the group when I was staff producer at our ce A n So all this was going on in San Francisco, and I get a call to go up to San Francisco to see screwup that plane at the club. They've already made the first album. No nothing, I haven't been signed. So I go up and I see them at this club and line around the block and listen and stuff sounded great. So so really, before you thought it was not rough, it was good.

I thought it was good, and I thought that, yeah, this says, hey, we need a group from San Francisco, because you know, Moby Grape was going to Columbia. And just just to be clear, you started off had a lot of success in the jazz world. What was your viewpoint of rock music? Did you like getting you said this is business. No, I did like it. I liked it and and certain certain aspects of it I loved, you know. And somebody oh great R and B things, uh that you know race records, which is what I

grew up. Uh yeah, so I was into that kind of thing. So you were a Beatles fan. The first time I heard the Beatles, I was I thought, I want to hold your hands right, Okay, you know when I heard saw Jim Pepper killed me on Great Ones and all my albums. You know, Chaff Emeric was the engineer, right and didn't amazing? Is he a friend of yours? Yes he was? And and uh you know I missing the wonderful nice man. Yeah. And uh so you go up to San Francisco and you hear the band and

you your thumbs right. Then what happens? So r c A signs them, So they work out a deal and they come in and someone produces the first so I know at that particular time, they had to record in the Union studio, right right, yeah, right, so they someone else starting producer record. Yeah, I think that manager or somebody, and at that time producer record. It was called Jeff Sanplane Takes Off and it was with Sydney in it, and then something I don't know what happened, but she

left the band. I have no idea why. And and Grace came in and Spencer I think that talking too, but I'm not sure. Um and that was it and it didn't do much. Then sourrealistic pillow, Okay, well you're you did that? No, I didn't do that. Did that? That was Rich Gerrard was the producer. Um and uh.

And they hated that record because is the echo. They hated the way it was recorded with the echo and everything, and it's just you know, they said they didn't want anything to do with right with at that foot because of that. So they at the time, do they have to use someone who works for our c Not necessarily, they would have to use an our Cia engineer. So anyway, so I I'm assigned to it, and now I am. I'm doing Eddie Fisher overdubs in the afternoon from two

to five. At five o'clock, I quit with Eddie. I go up to my office, I meditate for an hour. I wind up by day to go back down. Eight o'clock. Jefferson airplane come in and they just trail in, you know, and it's it's and it goes on. We worked from eight till maybe an and then all of a sudden we visited Stought showing up and we got Channis Joplin's Come hangs out. Ah, so everybody, Jean Luc Goddard, you know.

I mean it was some heavy duty people and his wife, you know, his wife was she would sit knitting and I swear, you know, and we're doing acid rock music. Um so I got to be eleven o'clock, you know, David Crosby would show up, and then it was all the drugs and until three in the morning. So this went on for a while, and it was very very slow, imagine and burning up the money. But because it's r c A Studios, it's not like we're using outside, you know,

so so that cuts it back a lot. And and yeah, we were so anyway, so we're into this a few months and and I'm I'm starting to uh kill myself in a sense that I get home, get a couple of hours sleep, get up, come to the office. I had other acts that I've rec with and trying to do budgets. So I called my boss, Ernie all Shila on the phone in New York and uh. And I said, Ernie, I can't do this anymore. I said, you know, I'm

killing myself. I said, you know, I'm working with Eddie Fisher in the afternoon and Jefferson never playing at night. Don't get out of here three four in the morning. By time I get home, I'm back and looking for songs, you know. And I said, I just can't do anymore. He said, gee, how truck drivers do it? Wow? And I said, really, Earlie. So yeah, I said, we'll get yourself a couple of trucks. Because because I quit and I turned out, I went down, put in my notice,

two weeks notice, and quit. So I went home after two weeks and I didn't know what I was gonna do. Where where was it? But you're in the middle of uh, you know, after we get back and now they're on their own in the studio. All right, Okay. So I get a call from the manager of the Jeff Scenaria plane. Al, we had a lot of trouble. They're trying to stick us. We don't want these people. They said, we could hire an outside producer and give him points. Would you be interested?

I said, absolutely, just a little bit. You quit, and obviously it takes like a little while to decompress. What was the plan? There wasn't a plan when I quit. None, that was it. What did I do? Oh my god, I'm home. Now I'm home. I have a family and I'm home. I'm not working on there's no check. What the what? What are you crazy? But it worked out, you know, And now I was then I was trying to figure out Okay, now this is I gotta have

a plan on how I get some work. And I was getting that going when I got the call from Bill Thompson was the manager of the airplane at the time, so I would remember I was making twenty five right with the bonus, So I do uh. After bathing and baxes, we finally get it on there. Okay, So who makes the deal? You make the dealer, my attorney, great guy. So how many points do they give you? Well, they started out low, but then it went up. We agate

and when I was getting around five, not bad at all. Well, so my first loyalty check, it's almost fifty dollars as compared for working a whole game for twenty three five. Okay, how long as it take it to finish? After bathing it Baxter. That album took five and a half months, and was there any pressure to speed it up? Um? No not At that point. They wanted that they would call all the time and ask how it's going, and

what's going on? What does it look like? And and we I said, she did a single while we were doing that called two Heads, I think, and uh so they released a single, so there was something out there, but that was it Saturday Afternoon, won't you try? Was that always one song together? Okay? So that album comes out, okay, and that's the album you start to get royalties on it. Is the band happy with the record? Absolutely? Okay? And

then and then is it uh crown of Creation? Then we do chronic creation um and then bless its point of So what was it like making a live album back then? It was cool. We did half of it in um San Francisco and half of it in New York. Um live it wasn live? Yeah, yeah, because sometimes people you know, and in New York before they went on, they would King Kong was on the screen. So at the end when the guy said it wasn't wasn't the airplane that killed the beast? It was beauty? You know

kind of thing. So I love that and we really get permission to put that on the record. Really yeah, I think that opens the record. So, um, how many shows did you have to record to get it? Oh? I know when we were in New York it was Thanksgiving, so we had Thanksgiving together, dinner together, all of us while they were playing at the clubs. We would do um, we would called, uh, maybe three or four shows in each place and and usually have enough. And did you

how many mikes would it take? Well, yeah, quite quite a few, just a guestimate maybe. And at the time, did the record plane have a truck or what did you use to record? Yeah, yeah, there was a truck. And while he had had a truck in San Francisco, and uh, we had a truck in New York. I can't remember who r c A had one? I think so something like that a live album. How long did it take you to mix it? The most time takes picking.

You know, you got like you do five shows, right, so now you've got five versions of that song, so you gotta listen to each version, figure about the best one and and take that. So it's time consumings. Did you ever cut like half of one song with half of the other. No, I know, not on live. So I've done it in the studio. Uh yeah many times, but not on anything alive. Okay, so that album comes out, tell me about Volunteers, which was a mega production. Yeah,

that's my favorite. It is my favorite too. Yeah, and you know a quick story. I sent the tapes back to New York just to be clear because this is predigital. Yeah, how would you literally get the tapes to New York? They sent him with a guy. Yeah that they they mail him. Okay, you know, like ups or whatever something. I think, yeah, that they had a special mailing department. So we sent the tapes back and all of a sudden, my phone rings. Ow, you can't do this. What do

you mean? Up against the wall? Mother is not gonna work? I said, well, what do you want? They got to take it out, So I said, well what if they don't. He said, we're not going to release it like that. I said, okay, let me talk to him. So I go back and I talked to uh, get the group together, but the and they're not gonna You've got to change this. They're not going to release it like this. They're not what you either change it or the records are coming out.

They said, fine, fuck them, don't put it out So I called back until New York. They said, fine, don't put it out there, and they're not changing it. This is when I learned a big lesson about record companies. You know, it's all about the money. Of course, all of a sudden came out untouched, just the way we did it, you know, because they wanted the building and that was a big album. Right. Also, I remember Escible

Blue Day Had doesn't mean shipped to a tree. I know some of the greatest stuff compared to a stream. The American Dream doesn't mean shipped to a tree. We need more of that today, Yes, absolutely, okay, so let's go back. You do you're now independent by accident, almost you do after bathing it back. So that takes five months. Then what well, then I'm into the more with the

Jefferson Aeroplane. And then they started a label called Grunt, and uh, they like me, so I started doing some of the Grunt acts and then I wound up doing the the original haw Tuna record, the acoustic right which and that that's another story. Well, the story, this story was we we were up in um San Francisco, and uh at at a club and um and Ousley is doing in front of the house The King of Acid.

So I'm I'm drinking apple juice talking Al and I have Wally had his truck and my engineer was a guy by named Alan Since and uh, so I finished everything and now they're going to go on first show and writing. So I get into truck and I got a pad and a pencil, and I'm sitting back and Alan's right there, and we had gotten our sounds at the beginning. Everything was good, and uh, all of a sudden, I my feet when two hundred yards and the whole truck expanded and then back, and it was like, what

the hell was that? And then it happened again, and then I knew what happened, and I turned to Allen. I said, Alan, you're on your own. I had a part I was gonna write now that there's not one note down on that show. How many shows did record then? If we recorded I think four four shows. Okay, you were living in l A. Okay, were you using any drugs? Was high? Oh? Yeah, okay, yeah plenty. I'm sober now over thirty two years, right, But yeah, I was obviously

what drugs were you using everything? Okay, cocaine? We of course, how everybody smoked marijuana, a lot of cocaine. Uh, acid once in a while. Okay, so had you take an acid prior to that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so anyway, you know what was going on? What was okay? Did you because in the lates at least, was we hit the seventies people using cocaine so they could stay up and work, right? Did you use it for that? Yeah? We yeah? Yeah,

where would you get it from anybody? I mean you'd walk into a session and everybody had their own bottle, like everybody was doing it well. And those were the days when it was told we were told it wasn't you know. Uh so yeah, hey, just it's great if we can keep going and yeah okay. So for this period from uh like sixty eight to seventy two, are you working outside of grunt outside of Jefferson Airplane? Um? Yeah? Yeah?

So how you getting that work? Um? I get called, you know, I have uh my uh my attorney house messenger help. He would send people to me and so forth. That's how I wind up doing altro um because of him. Uh So I was getting worked small work. Uh, I did uh goop called Ivory, you know Martin a band like that. How long would it take you to do it? Uh? Two weeks? Couple of weeks? Okay, So how do you end up doing a loan together? Do you already know

Tommy Lapuma? Yeah, Tommy, Tommy, Um, I'm at Tommy. In nineteen sixty he was a song plug up for Metro Music and he would commend one of the guys that commend and bring me songs, and we hit it off right away. Tommy and I we just became friends. And he would bring me songs Fanny Fisher for this one and whatever. And I know he was a saxophone player, and I know he wanted to produce and and do that.

So um, So we became fast friends. And we would hang out and go out together at dinner and get a high together, and I'd go to his sections, he'd come to mind um, and we just became close friends. So he was doing an album with Dave Mason and Bruce Bodnick was the engineer, the Doors engineer, and he had a start time with the Doors on a new album that he had to leave and start on that day. So Tommy said, I need somebody to mix this album. He said, you used to engineer l what do you

mix it? I said, I don't think I could do it anymore. Tommy years, oh, yeah, it's like riding a bike. So yeah, So we're back and forth. So finally we make a little pact. Okay, I'll go in with you. We'll give it a shot. If I feel I'm not doing it, you let me back off. And if you feel I'm not doing it, you gotta let me know know how feeling. So we make the deal. I go in and start mixing this record, that beautiful sounding record

that Bruce did, and I'm in heaven. You know, it's all of a sudden, It's back to where I started. The reason I'm in this business in the first place is to be able to move things around. And bale Let's thing and that was it. And and when I finished that record, I think we took us a week to mix it. Uh. It just it was great. That's great sounding record. I was one of the great records of all time. One of the things you can play from beginning to yeah, exactly, great songs, you know. And

they're doing a documentary on coming up soon. So we did a podcast with you know he can still really play the guitar. Oh yeah, no, no, yeah, but only you know, and I know it took more than your gay look at you, look at me unbelievable stuff. That was it. That was the best of the best. So then that comes out, and then I get a call from Neil Larcher who wants to do a record. So, okay, it's halfway done with the record. He wants to the half with me at Sunset Sound. So we set up

the whole studio, which actors is again uh yeah. We set up the studio like a living room and and then we were doing on the Beach and so we did three songs there. And there's another story with that. People would come in from the record company and we have one multi track tape machine that we're recording on, and people would come in and want to hear what

we were doing. So we'd be in one song and so we don't have to take the tape off, put another tape on and playing what we did and everything else. So we finally decided to make to a little two track a couple of rough so we didn't have to keep doing it. Well, that's all well and good. We finished the record. Everything's great. Yeah, when are we going to mix? Neil? Oh no, no, I like the rough mixes. I said, oh no, Neil, He said, yeah, no, I

think that's exactly what I want. I said, look, let me go in and do it, let me do it. I'll pay for it myself at all. But I know, no, no, this is it. I that was it. So there was no more arguing or or anything else. And and kneel to this day. Every time he sees me, or he'll see somebody else, say something about it. Oh yeah, ask God if he still wants to remix. He still does that. Well. It's funny because his first album came out and he was pissed about the mix and he redid it. Yeah.

So uh and you do you ever work with Neil again? Yeah? Yeah, I work with Neil quite a bit. I just did a hundred piece of orchastra with him at m CHAM just recently. Yeah. Yeah, that his two albums ago. You know it. We had choir and orchestra and everything done live. He sang live right out in the middle of the orchestra. This is amazing. Okay, So how did you end up working on Asia Steely Dan. Oh I got a call. Uh Gary Kats, did you know? H oh yeah yeah. And so I get a call and hey, we have

a we have a song or two. Uh we want you to mix. So I said so that. No, no, I didn't track anything on that album, just mixed two songs. So yeah. I was working at sound Labs almend Steiner on the studio and um, so I'm sitting there waiting. They bring the tapes in a bunch of limiteds that they were thinking about using, and so it's the song

is PEG. So they take off and I'm messing around with with PEG and so I get a fairly good balance on it, you know, And I turned the monitor down and I'm going at the meats, like checking out everything great. Uh, little did I know they walked in while I was doing that. And then I turned the monitor up and I had this pretty good mix that I had done before they came in, and they freaked out and Gary has it, al can mix a record?

What I have been hearing it? It was that kind of thing, and I mean it would blown away, But the long run, it was PEG was the song, and we wound up mixing it and there were in those days. There was no automation on a car, so everybody had a part. So you know, one guy right, one guy added, echoed to a guitar part, another guy did this, and so it was all They were like four of us over the board, and it was all about a performance.

And we spent almost twelve hours on PEG to get that the way it was because every time if I get it right, someone else school up right. Everybody had to be perfect. And what was the other song you did on Asia? On Asia? Deacon Blues? That's my favorite song on Asia they call out Alabama the Crimson type. Oh god, that's a great song. Okay, So um, let's go back to the beginning. You're from New York, Okay. Your parents born where? Okay? How many generations have they

already been here? Your family? Um? God, on my mother's side, back during the mayflower time. Really yeah yeah, Connecticut Yankee. Um. On my father's side, his mother came over from Germany when she was three. His father was here before and he was born here I think his father and he was a blacksmith. Yeah yeah, he did horn shoes and he were and then he worked for the Mack Trucking company. What do you do for them? Right? Wow? Okay, So you grow up where I grew up in Brooklyn, So

what was it like? Back then? It was like mean streets if you ever seen that movie, Yeah, it's pretty Yeah, that's a tough area, tough neighborhood, a lot of gangs, out of fights, a lot of that kind. And how did you fit in there? It's probably just like having a little Turkey kid, you know, getting in trouble and all um. I was. I was really blessed in the sense that my father's brother, Harry Smith is reallyam with Schmidt, but he changed it because of the German sentiment. And

back then he um. He was a recording engineer for um brun s Wicks. Yeah, he did the sing sing sing, you know, Benny Goodman all use. So he had a recording studio and when I was little, my my recording studio. Yeah, Harry Smith Recording where in New York City on to West and it was the first independent recording study in New York. Sanata did his first vocal ever in the

studio there. Yeah, It's just amazing time. So we would go over and visit him when I was a little like he he didn't have any children, and so, but he was besides my uncle, he was also my godfather.

So he treated me like I was his son. And and I was always amazed by everything, and you know, and so he showed me and watching big bands record and uh so when I got to be about eight, I was able to get on the subway by myself, walk a few blocks, get on the sub boy, get over, get off at walk back one block to his studio. And I'd spend the weekend with my uncle. And you literally sleep at his house or you'd stay at his house.

He had a beautiful apartment on Riverside Drive. Back then, my father was making like seventeen bucks of And at the end of the day on Sunday, when I was time for me to go back, my uncle would give me a dollar bill. Wow, and I would give it to my mom and and he knew my dad wouldn't take it right if it too proud for that, But that's given it to me to a gift to my mom. She make sure it went to good use. Okay, just at the time. How many kids in the family at

that time there were three? And where are you in the hierarchy? First, you're the oldest. All the hopes and dreams are in you. And at school you're good or bad at school. I was good at school. I didn't like school, but I was good at school. And um, I was good at math, which you need to be good math to be an engineer. Yeah, yeah it, Um,

I just I didn't like school, you know. So when I was like thirteen and I stopped going to my uncle's studio, I started playing hooky from school and I would go over to see Sinatra at the Paramount Theater with Tommy Dossie and for a quarter. For a quarter you could um get in right, and then we would hide so we could stay and see a couple of shows. It was, you know, it was really okay. So why did you stop working with your uncle? I stopped. I started hanging out with a gang, and I started getting

in some trouble. And series, what was the most trouble you got it? Well, I got other times. I got arrested, never booked on anything, but arrested for being where I shouldn't have been, and so forth. So it taught me a less and and it kept getting worse. And um, so from the time I was like thirteen and a half. On my seventeenth birthday, my parents signed for me to enlisted the navy. Okay, had you finished high school? I just finished high school. Okay, just to go back for

a second. Are you popular in school or just one of the people there or whatever. Yeah, I was pretty popular. I mean I was had a lot of friends. You know, he's to hang out. I played softball all the time. I played a lot of sports. Um and yeah, I know I had a lot of Okay, so your parents enlisted you because they wanted to get you out of trouble. Yeah, yeah, I said yes because I knew that I was going

to wind up in jail or something. I mean, you know, we were just running, uh but you know, money for the bookies, that kind of stuff they were. They were going out to the hirpool and stealing out there. And also I knew it was like somebody taught me on the show and get out of here. You're gonna be in trouble. And so I'm good and I went to I went to Great Legs. Look at Wait, Wait Wait, which brims of the services Navy. I was in the Navy and went to Great Legs. My i Q is

very high. So when we get out of boot camp. Uh, the guy said, what do you want to do in the navy? Okay, I said, I just want to be a Poston's maid, you know, somebody on the deck. No, no, no, I Q was too high for that. So they sent me to school in Washington, d C. Communications School, and it's decoding and how to break down COLDE and Russian code and this kind of stuff. So I do that for a year. Just to be clear, you're listened the navy.

And he thought, in the back of your mind, this is right after World War Two, that maybe there's a ward you're gonna get you off. You know, there was no at seventeen. You don't think and you you don't think you ever going to be the one that's going to get hurt anyway. So yeah, so that that was pretty cool. But I M, you're taking the communication of course you were. Yeah, yeah, it was that. And then so you know, in Washington at that time, it was great.

UM people like uh, Lady Day she couldn't work in New York because of the UM cabaret. She couldn't get a cabaret license because of the drug use. And that was a big problem back then. So all of those artists would come down to Washington, d C. Which was where I was going to school. And so, I mean every weekend there was a place called Captain Tom's. There was some other clubs, but we had the best of the best jazz artists coming down there all the time. So so every weekend it was you know, it was

just great. And I get to see all these people and and enjoy enjoy that. So, um, I got out of the service. Over two years and I got out. I was thinking of going to City College. Um. I was only home for like ten eleven days and my uncle called me and he said, a friend of mine has a studio and then looking for an assistant. Would you be interested? I said absolutely. I didn't know what I was gonna do, so he said, great, okay, uh go over and talk to him. I'll set everything up.

And did. I went. I talked to the guy and he was my uncle's best friend. Right. Yeah, I knew I was going to get the job, you know. So okay, reported Monday, nine o'clock. Where was this this was on? This was in the Steinway Building on fifty seven, right across from Carnegie Hall. And you're living where I'm living. In Brooklyn with your parents. No no, no, no, yes, yes with my parents. Right. Um, So you get the job.

I get the job. I show up. I knew I was going to get anybody show up Monday nine am. I get their divorce. Takes me uh, and he introduces me. There's the two engineers who worked there. One was a German engineer who wore a monocle I swear and and even a white coat and with click as heels kind of thing. And the other was this young guy about seven years old, Tommy Dowd. Wow. So I look at tom he time he looks at me, and it was

like instant friendship or something. So that was it. So he bought me a notebook and then I was under his wing and we worked together at that studio for two years, and then the studio folded. He went to another studio, and I went to a place called Nola Recording, which is recording studio and a and a rehearsal hall. So I was there a year and Tommy called me and said, the studio that I'm at looking for another guy, and I recommended you come on over, and I went

over an interview and I got that job. The name of that studio that was called Fulton Recording, which later was brought by Oh god, I can't think the company now, I think of it. Um anyway, So Fulton and it was Tommy and me and uh an engineer by name of Bob Doherty, and and we were doing all the Lette commercials, look chop all those things, cigarette commercials. Okay, lot when you were at the first studio, UH, were you cutting music or we're cutting commercials. We're doing a

little of everything. We we did Voice of the America stuff on six transcription disc shows and in different languages. Tell Us of Alice, his whole family would come and they would in Greek. They would do these shows that would get broadcast over to Greece. UM. So it was that was interesting. But we also were doing all the Atlantic work and Prestige records, uh, national records. There was a lot of little labels sitting in UH. So he's doing all this work, um and and getting to do

uh some of the great Atlantic acts. You know, Tom worked ultimately with them. So you're working in this studio with Tom and the other guy. What are the hours in that eround? Uh could be any time and you know if even if you worked late till eleven, you still have to be in in the morning around nine in the morning. So um um, yeah we did. There wasn't a lot of late late stuff, but yeah, you know it goes seven to ten sometimes. Okay. So how so when did you get married in this picture? So

I got married? Uh, right in the middle. Okay. So how hard was it? How understanding that your wife had to be about these hours? Uh? Yeah, she she was pretty good about it. I think she was happy we got married just to get out of the environment she was in, which was not very good. You know, her parents were uh splitting up and having so to meet her. I never read a dance then. Back then, Yeah, it

was a danceing. Oh we have Charlie Vntoura and Bob for the people, and everybody be out there jute bugging and dancing, and you know there'll be a lot of single guys, single girls. You go and ask some of the Hanson. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Okay. So you're working at the studio with Tom and then what happens next, Well, I'm there three months and they my boss says, okay, Saturday, you're in on all by yourself.

There's just a three little demo records, one of ten one or twelve one or two, and you do that. So the guy comes in. First guy, he plays guitar and sings the song he wrote for his daughter, We caught an Ascetate at seventy eight done. We give it to him. He gives me fifteen dollars and he leaves. The other guy comes in. He sits down at the piano and he plays a song, h happy birthday for somebody. So I cut the asketa, I give it to him

and fifteen bucks and knee ladies. So now I'm waiting for a guy by name of Merca to show up. So the elevated toway was opened up and all these musicians start coming out, and I said, WHOA, what's going on. We're on the second floor. We're here for the record date No Mercy, Mercy Records, Mercer Allington, do Gellington's son. I said, oh no, no, there's a mistake. And here's Johnny Hodges standing in front of me and Billy straight

on and on. You know, he's it's like Babe Ruth and Joe the main exactly like I mean, my heart's going like this, and so I get on the phone and called Tommy. No answer. Back then there were no cells and call no answer. I don't know what the hell to do. So we only had an eight input console, and I had that book that Tommy bought me, and I all the diagrams how they set up and what mikes. So I got the book. When I set up, put

the mics away. They were and and the guys kept showing up and they were sitting down and laughing and doing whatever, and I'm in the control and trying to figure out what the how I'm going to do this and do Gellington walks and he's got this gorgeous brown suit on. I mean, it's just you know, the way he had his head done and all. And I said, Mr Ellington, there's a huge mistake here. He said, why is that. I said, well, they thought this was just a little demo and and I'm not qualified to do

anything like this. He said, what do you mean. I said, well, I've never done anything like sending. He looked out and he said, everybody looks comfortable out. I said, yeah, but you know that's in here that I'm worried about. He said, no, no, no, don't We'll get through it. Don't worry, just relaxed. And he really did everything to calm me down. I think he thought that if I don't calm him down, we're not going to get anything. So we did. He called me down, kept patting my thigh right next to me.

Don't worry something, we're going he said. Then you know, I hit the sack. Oh, saxophone sound wonderful, you know, hit and stuff like that. He's nice comments, and so we got through it. I did four songs and three or four songs in three hours, and that was it. And that was my first section, the first thing, and you know, Duke Ellington, Oh my god, I couldn't believe it. So then three weeks later, I'm doing the same thing.

So now I finished it too. Just to be clear, this is the very first studio you work out of the third first, So so I finish up. I'm doing the same think demos and the last ones at two and I'm finished. I'm getting ready, you know, gonna go home and phone rings. I pick it up. It's herb Abramson Anderson let me said, hey, how was anybody in the studio this afternoon? I said, no, no, no, nobody here he said, I'm going to bring a group over here.

Cool with that? I said, yeah, sure, you know, I didn't want to say no. So he brought over this group and uh, and we caught two songs. One song was Skylark, which is the B side, and the other was a song called Don't You Know I Love You, which became a huge race record hit, I mean a big head. It was on a chart for like twelve weeks in a row, and I had recorded it, So now I had to Kellington and I hit a race

record hit, R and B hit back then. So then Atlantic started using me on more things when Tommy was busy doing something. I started doing Clyde mix at a uh Martin jazz quartet, Chris Conna, you know that kind of stuff. So I was really starting to hone up on on things and how to do things and learning more all the time from Tommy. So that case you're there, then you go to the other place. Now you're back with Tommy, mac with Tommy, and you're cutting what cutting everything?

A lot of Tico records, Tito Pointe, Tito Rodriguez, Machito, Uh, Cam Callaway, Uh, you know a lot of that. I'm doing a lot of World Pacific Jazz records, Jerry Mulligan, the songbook, chet Chet Baker, uh, Bobby Brooke, maholl you know, all those great jazz things, and and the studio was pretty famous for the jazz. A lot of jazz artists like to work there. The studio was built once again,

the name of the studio was Full and Record. Yeah, and it was the later bought by Coastal Recording Recording, and then the name changed the Coastal But yeah, it was Tommy Dowd me trying to think the other two guys Heinz Kuberko was there and engineers, and so how did that play out? How long were you there? I was there four years? Yeah, I was there about four years. What kind of money? Uh, good money because yeah, top union money. So I was doing really well. I was. Yeah,

I'm very happy. And still after four years. What happens. Well, Dick Bark, who owned World Pacific Jazz, he would use me all the time on his great jazz albums and uh, so we were there doing street swingers or something and uh he Jimmy Duffrey, you know some of the great old and he said, now you want to move to California. They don't have to fly all the way to New York to use you. And I, you know, we joke and he laugh and I said, all right, we'll give me a job and I'll come out. That was it.

Three weeks later, I got a call on the phone, tick Pocket, How I got your job out here? The best studio in in l A. They know you work. They want you good money, shers. If you want it, you're gonna let me know. In two weeks, I talked it over with my wife. We had two kids at that time. Um, I was still a baby myself. Um, and we did. We we moved out to Burbank. That was what year. That was the same year the Dodgers moved.

You moved with the dogs, moved with the Dodgers. I was an Ardent Dodger fan all my life, so yeah, I moved with the dogs. So you moved to Burbank? What was burd Bank like that? It was already nice. It was nice. Say, you know, it's small. We we have a nice little Uh. We had a two bedroom condo and and it was nice and uh we had some friends that lived down the street. It was kind of it was it was nice I was working most of the time, so it wasn't a matter of justin.

You were in the darkness the whole time. Yeah right, Okay, So that you go to work for this studio. The name of that is um that is radio recorders. Okay, so you're radio recorders and that ultimately ties up with moving to our c A okay eventually, yeah, okay. So when you're recording at that era, okay, when you start with Duke Ellington, what does equipment like? Well, the equipment

there are a lot of good microphones back then. You know the great um Um Neiman microphone that have that forty seven everybody you know that came out in se and thank yeah, I think so, and they you could buy one back then for three d bucks. I tried to try that today. So the equipment we were starting to get um good uh two microphones and things. And one of the things we were Tommy and I and the engineers back in New York, we were using those

two mics a lot. When I came to California, they weren't using them as much, and I started like putting it on the bass instrument. Bass players were coming in and saying, oh man, I love that sound on my bass. Other engineers would come were using ribbon mics. They were using different things, different ribbon or whatever, you know, same with the drums. So you know, we had we were using different microphone techniques back East and they were out

here with different mics on different instructs. And that's how I started doing what I knew I could do, and I started getting a lot of work. Then they were starting to record this record with Hank Mancini, Henry Mancini, who was an arranger and I worked with him as as an arranger on different things, and the nicest guy. But uh Bones how who is an incredible engineering producer. Um, he was doing the record and evidently cy Rady who

was the producer and Bones, something happened. But he the Bones said look I'm not going I can't do this anymore and left or whatever. But all I know is I got grabbed by the shirt collar and said, okay, all you're doing this. I wanted up finishing the Peter Gun album. And then because of that, I started doing all the Mancini stuff. And then because of that, I started doing a lot of the r c A stuff. Um, you know, right, Peterson and some of the acts that

they had back then. Okay, But going more about the equipment, you've lived through a lot of evolution. First, talk about the boards. What did you feel you know, it was there. The big thing in the seventies was the Knives boards that all was of a suddenly went to SSL and digital. What's your view point on all that stuff? Well, I don't use digital boards. I don't like them tonight my question? Okay, why, I don't know. I just don't like the way they sound.

I like analog boards. My favorite board is a Nive analog board. I love the preamps, I love the way they sound. But but there are a lot of great boards out there, uh that I couldn't work on. Quad was a really good one. That's you know, many many nice good consoles. I'm not a big SSL fan. Um it seems the titles turned to ends them anyway. Yeah, yeah, so I just everything just it didn't sound musical enough for me. And how about when we went to digital?

What do you think about that? Well? I hated at first, and I was not going to go I mean I did like, um, I did a digital album with with a group on Warner Brothers. I can't think of the name of the group, now it'll come to me. But what would happen? Would you know? We were this is with the Mitsubishi recorder. Yeah, two tracks. Yeah, that's what we used on Barbara a lot. She had her own or Columbia gave her a machine. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, so she had a machine. What else did she have?

She had that, that's for sure, and that was on every session, so she would truck it in or for wherever it was. Yeah, I'm working with this act on Warner Brothers and What Happens um, which I had to do the digital album, Ah right right, Yeah, it just didn't sound real musical to me, you know, so I just stayed away from it, and everybody was starting to go to k you know. And so when it went to n and they were able to, you know, elevate the quality, then it started sounding really good and you

couldn't tell the difference. So my assistant when we were doing we were doing something with Tommy Lapuma and Diana and um, so we recorded it on analog tape and pro tools at at. So when they came in to listen and they they didn't want to convert and wanted we just switched back and forth from the analog to the digital because we had them locked up and they couldn't hell the difference. They didn't even notice we were so that was great, Okay, all right, we'll do that.

But she liked the piano solo and take two. Let it, didn't want to take three. So in protels, he just my assistant dropped it in, took the other and it was done. It took thirty seconds. If we had to cut tape and do all that, it would take in a half an hour. And now you have musicians hanging around, you know, waiting, uh, while we're cutting tape and and doing this way. We didn't have any of that. So

that was it. That was the conversion. And from then on, I've just talked to everybody and I go, I do everything at one now, and uh, I love the quality and it's just a reproduction we have to worry about exactly right. Okay, So when you moved into pro tools, your assistant ran the pro tools rig and still at this point he's the guy who's running it or we are you familiar with I can they sent me up so I can start and stop and go back and fourth.

But yeah, I don't want to get into all that other stuff of editing and pro tools, not my thing. How important is the room? The recording room? Wow? Probably the most important. Uh yeah, if you have a good room to start with. If you have a bad room, it's almost impossible to get a good sound. Uh. You know, you've really got to have to use your imagination on on on how you want to do things. But a good room is you know, you can put Mike's almost anywhere.

You're going to get good reflection, you know. And and the fact that you get leakage makes things gives more dimension, It makes things sound bigger and more open. But leakage would make it harder to mix right, Well, it depends on on the leak at. You know, the condom leaks. That's why I always tell everybody you want to use great microphones, because when you get leaka, you on a good microphone, you're getting good leak at and that is a good thing. When you got a cheap mic and

you're getting that, say, Lenka, you don't want that. That's just cluttering up stuff. So now is a good room magic or there are certain things that you can do to make it a good room and someone's constructing. Well I think, yeah, I think that you can help make a room into a good room. Um, but it would have to start out to be reasonably good in the beginning. Um. Yeah, you know, in good rooms sometimes that just accidentally happen. Some guy puts a couple of things up and it's magic. Now,

of the studios you've worked in, which ones have good rooms? Well, look the original Larca studios at Sunset and Mind they had two rooms there, A and B, and those are two of the best rooms I've ever worked in. Then does that because accident or they have engine years come in and the engineers come in and do everything and and um and tested with a lot of testing was done. Um. Another great room is a room like uh MJM scoring stage. Right,

Oh my god, that's Sony scoring stage. It's it's a gorgeous room and you know, you look at it and it looks like, you know, it's not even done yet, right right, But but the sound in the room, it's just amazing. Staying with that because they mixed movies and there's an engineer mixes the music in. Have you ever done that? No? No, I I did a lot of

TV stuff early you know. Um, when I worked at R c A as a staff engineer, we would do a lot of documentaries and that stuff, but not a lot of movies, although I got to work with all the great scorers you know. Okay, So today everything is flipped. A lot of people make these records digitally at home because they don't want to pay that money. Yeah, you side there, tell me your take. I hated. I I just hated when you know, I I hear people you know,

just it's it's a quality of the stuff. What's happening is the people set up studios at home, and then they don't have money to really buy the best equipments to they buy cheaper mixtup the stuff too, and the recording in their bedroom, and and the quality is just it's not good. And and I don't use plugins, so it's I and I don't use much eque or compression

on on anything I do. Um, And so I find when I get something that I have to mix that was recorded in somebody's bedroom or something, I am using every thing that I don't use to try to make it put it in a place where it's acceptable at least. Okay, But a lot of companies can't pay for those big rooms anymore. True, So how does that affect your sessions? And it affects quite a bit because I don't get

we don't get as much work, you know. And if you can get somebody to to do fixes and ovadubs in their bedroom, um, especially if it's just a guitar part, that kind of stuff, Yeah, you save a lot of money because we're not selling records. You know, the seventies and eighties, My god, forget it. You know that this was a will that ever happen again? I doubt it? No, Okay, But staying in that era and the changes, let's talk

about the reproduction. Obviously cassettes were inferior for no other reason. There was a high speed reproduction. But what is your view vinyl versus c d S versus streaming in terms of the reproduction end on the reprint. I only listened to Vinyl at home, and that's really yeah, that's it. I have a great audio technical turntable pick up, great speak. I have a really nice system and and I like, let's stop there. What what is your system? You have

the audio technical it's an audio technical pick up. My speakers are the tannoy uh self powered speakers. I'm not sure the model number. I've had him about ten years yet, for like five eight thousand bucks or something ten years ago. And then I have um sony uh power. I am okay, So what do you use to mix when I mix it in the studio? Tannois have a specific sound, so I was wondering if you use in the studio. I used Tannoise. Yeah, and I what I use uh dog sacks,

Roma ducks right. He He came up with the speakers and it's a Tannoy ten inch driver. And then with Mastering Lab cabinets and crossovers, and I've been using those for the last fifteen years. Wait, wait to the crossovers. What's the tweeter. It's it's all Mastering Lab. Yeah. Okay, So and you bring them yourself when you're mixing. Yeah, any other gear you bring it back. Bring a lot of gear. I bring all my preamps. I have about twenty of those, um um A couple of compressors that

I have. Uh well, I use it the two tech three band and I just used it on the output of the bus, but I just tap it. I use it mainly to get that tube sound from the eck. And what about digital reverb? Yeah, well, um, I'm lucky that I work at Capital all the time. We have the great live chambers. But I have a percasty. I have a six thousand digital reverb. I have a two eighty. Um, so when I set up reverbs, we set up eight to ten different reverbs. I try. I don't try to

put more than one thing in any reverb. Once in a while it might be two in one, but usually you know, if I if I have the vocal on something, a reverb on the vocal, nothing else will go in that reverb. Now, over time, sounds have changed in terms of what's in wet dry? Whatever is your sound stayed consistent or to what to grieve? You've been influenced by the marketplace? No, no, I think my sounds say pretty consistent. I've no mean one of those that worry about Um,

it's certainly now. And you know, when I make a record, I want to make it. Hopefully it's going to be ahead and uh, and somebody's gonna enjoy the benefits of that. But I don't. I don't go on my way to to try to make something it's something it's not. I'm not sure if I said that, you know you did? You did. Let's go back to the vinyl. Okay. Vinyl

is an inherently limited medium. Okay, Now, I understand completely if the it was recorded on tape and the whole chain is the analog, But what if it's recorded digitally. Does it make any sense to listen on vinyl? I don't know if that would enhance it in any way. Uh, I don't know, you know, And that's something I should check out when I get home. I'll check that out

if I can see what difference there is. Well, I mean of the records you're listening to at home or most of them recorded on tape, or you have something recorded digitally, oh, something that we recorded because you know, I've heard different things because they say, well, if you take one ninety two, which you don't get in you know on most other services, and you know, I know it's it's an I've always felt that. Yes, in the early days, with the records that are cut analyze, they're

much better on vinyl. But the digital ones, I'm not sure. Okay. Uh, let's go back to um acts. You worked with Toto, Steve Lucas. There's a good friend of mine, and he said he was the hot session guy. Okay, and then someone I don't remember said it said, listen, you have a window and then you're done. No matter how good you are, you better find something else. Have you found

that to be true? Um? Yeah, I think there are times, you know, and with me, since I've been doing this for so long, I've been up and down that stage a couple of times. Well I've been hot and you know I can't you know, the phone is bringing off the hook. And then other times when I'm scuffling around looking for something to do, and then something comes along and I'm all of a sudden, I'm a flavor of the month again. Um, and I'm jammed. You know. So when it's when it's low, is there enough work or

what do you do? What do you think there isn't enough work? When it's slow, and I go, I hang out with other engineers, so it's slow at the same time, we'll go have lunch and do that kind of stuff. Um. You know, I I have my wife and I collect the art so well heavily into that. Um. So when I'm off and we have time, we go We'll go to New York. Uh go to the museums, go to uh galleries, look at different art and so forth, and uh so we buy and sell things. And because you

have that as a hobby now people professionals it. You know, at large, a lot of the prices going way down if you had to adjust your prices because of the change of the marketplace. Absolutely, what I get now is somebody will call me and and look how I got this amount of money? It's all I got. I'd love to have you and mix my record, and I'll talk to him about it and what's going on and what

do you think you want me to do it? And then okay, I'll say, all right, you know you we got to work out to deal with the studio and then and then I'll get to rest and I work it out that way because there are acts that I really like to work with. I mean, at times I do stuff for nothing and because I like the artist, I've got nothing to do if I can help somebody. You know, there's a new saying out now that kindness

is the new hip. Wow, I haven't heard that. Yeah, And it is the kind of it changes everything that around you when you're kind two people, and and I see it all the time in the studio. Okay, let's just assume are most of your gigs now both recording and mixing, or you have some separate mixing gigs or what. Yeah,

I have a few separate mixing gigs. I just mixed the record uh a little while ago for New York artists at UH, I started recording a two years ago at Cherney and I, Yeah, I'm the best, and we brought her in the studio in New York and started uh recording a few things. But this group I belong to the Meta Alliance anyway, a little bit slower, you and Ed would have worked at the same time. We we we were, Yeah, because we teach the Metal Alliance teaches um we're do it a couple of times a

year at a different studio. And so whenever we do Ed and I worked together and we bring in an act, whether it's uh Tuny Sutton to you know whoever, uh, and we we uh, we we could do it together. So okay, just little bit, what's the Metal Alliance? The Metal Alliance is Uh. It was Phaeromone Me, Ed Cherney, Elliott China, Um, George Massenburg, Chuck Ainley, Frank Philippetti, and uh, unfortunately two of them are gone now, so we're getting going to have to get some replacements. Okay, how did

it end up happening? It ended up happening Like we got together and talked about, you know, we're getting there's so much new equipment coming out all the time, and we wanted to do something like the good Housekeeping Seal of approval. So we made it fact that we would go over a gear and we would all listen, and if we unanimously liked it, we would recommend it. If one person didn't like it, it it didn't get recommended. Okay, And that's what we were trying to do. How much

gear would you we value? Microphones, preamps, all contact things? Okay, So you were telling the story, you were working with an act and recording it with ed two years ago, and now what's happening now? Oh? Well, she two years ago and and she started going around the country doing gigs and all, and she would record in different places, go back to New York and record, and so she finally got the whole thing finished and I just finished mixing it for her and it just came out two

weeks ago. Okay, if you're if you're tracking a capital. Where do you tend to mix? I like to mix it capital, Yeah, I like to mix. I like I like to mix in studio a believe it or not, which is to pick room. But see it's a room that I do most of my mixing and it's a little cheaper. And if they have people in the studio and a, I can't mix it right. So and is the okay? How hard is it to get time these days? Uh? It varies. Sometimes you trying to squeeze things in other

times there's plenty of time. I was leaving up to Paula Salvador. She you know, she knows my schedule. Yeah, we're figured it out. So, Um, what is your special sauce? What makes what is it that you do to the you want to reveal that makes your makes you head in shoulders above the average person? Well, I don't know how. You know, that's a tough question for me to answer. Somebody else who should answer that. Um, But the fact

that I love what I do so much. My father worked, He never took a day off in his life, and he worked hard all his life, and and and he did the best he could. And that's what I want to do. Every day I go and I want to do the best I can possibly do for the artist, make that artist happy. Hopefully you make a hit with him, but if not, a great record and that's equally as important sometimes. And there are a lot of albums out there that people have never heard of. You know, Willis

Allen Alan, I can't believe you cut that well? So many like that, you know that. I just and that that are great records that people don't know about. So we're your parents proud of your work? I yeah, my mom was, for sure. My father was tough when it comes to that. And I often say, now I wish my dad could see me now, you know, it would be maybe a whole different thing. Um. I think my dad felt that because his brother helped me so much, uh, that it made it easier for me to yeah, something

like that. Yeah, you know, dads are tough. And how long when did he pass away? He passed away? Oh my god, he was seventy eight years so about five years ago. Okay, So he saw a lot of your success. Yeah. Yeah, and I when I was a producer at r c A, Yeah, I would take him to more Tony's. He and my mom and uh, you know, they have dinner with the artists and stuff. Yeah that and he never he never really know, And I would always and I know, you know, they were living on retirement, so I always slip my

mother a hundred dollar bill, you know. And when when my father passed away and and my uh my sister went over to help out, she opened the refrigerator door, the draw on the bottom and it was food A hundred dollar bills that I had given my mother. She just took him into home. Wow. So you know, this is a business where a lot of people can't work anymore. In the last twenty years, you were I mean trying just trying to schedule, say you're tracking and then you're mixing.

You know, what is the secret to your ability to continue to work? I think the fact that I love it so much and I enjoy it so much. And you know, when I'm going I never think I'm making a living doing this. I think I'm I'm doing something people are going to enjoy this. It brings a lot of happiness music to people. Um, yeah, you know, I

I don't know I did. Certain artists are tough, and you know, when you're going in and it's not going to be a walk in the park, but other artists are, you know, just so much fun to be in a studio with um Dylan was. It was a ball. That's not his reputation. He was great because he was doing stuff that he was doing, all these old chestnuts. Well this is all recent stuff. Yes, yes, fifty two songs. Well that's the last one I too before that? Right, Okay,

when was the first time you worked with Dylan? First time I worked with him with Strangers in the Night or Shadows in the Night, it's called Yeah. They called me the manager and they had this time and I couldn't do it. I said, oh, well that's too Bob under work with that. I said, I'm sorry, I'm I'm booked, so I don't have the phone. I said to my wife, Damn, I really would have liked to have done that with Next morning, they called me, Bob wants you. When are

you available? So they worked around me, which I thought was great. And now I've done fifty two songs with him, actually fifty three. And how old long does it take to cut a Dylan drack? We we were doing one song every three hours, and what would happen? Would the first couple of hours, it would be Dylan going over the song, get the meaning of the song and and listen to the way Frank did it or whatever, and

and try to get you know, his special interpretation. And then we would go in and cut the track and two or three takes and we'd had it. So we would go from three to six, and then we take a two hour break for dinner, and then we go to eight to maybe eleven and get another song. So we were getting to a day. Where were you coming this at the capitol and studio? And then uh, any special tricks he used on his vocals to enhance those, Yeah, we did. We We used a great mike on his vocals. Um. Uh,

the Frank Sinatra mike that it's just amazing mike. And then I put another mike um in an omni position, uh two ft maybe away from the first mike and to capture some of the ambiance in the room and so forth. And he when he heard the first playback, he said, al my voice hasn't sounded this good in forty years. Yeah. And does he talk to you? Yes? He does not talking to be No, No, he does. I tuned one thing and uh and as I went by, he heard it and he looked at me and said,

what's that? I said, well, you were a little under we know. He made me put it back. Okay, And what about you know, staying on that, you know, starting in the seventies whatever, the era of comped vocals. What do you think of that? Well? Yeah, the reason I I mean, it works obviously, it works, you know with with with Barbara, there's a lot of comping of vocals, even comping of breath really yeah, right, yeah, she'll say, you know, I love that breath two verses back? Can

we put that here? So? Yeah, And but do you do you think you mean, forget not making it specifically about Barbara, does it eliminate a little bit of the soul and the field when you comp all that stuff? Well? I think so, yeah, I do. I do think a little bit when you hear you know, change is gonna come. Sam Cooke's sitting on the dock of debate, those kinds of things, those are not compvocal, those are you know.

And even with Barbara there's I mean there's some she came in one day we were working U David Forssibly doing back the Broadway and and she was not failing. Well she first time down, second time down, she just killed it. Really. It was like, you know, but they people like Barbara just they varized to the occasion. I mean, she is so meticulous about things, you know, it's it's never going to get out if she doesn't like it.

So anybody you haven't worked with who's still alive that you would like to work with, Yeah, you know, that comes up a lot. Uh, Yeah, I'd love to do a record with Sally came up. I was talking to Desmond Child the other day and he was talking about what a perfect career she has because she's unique. But she only makes a record like every eight years. I know, I know, and I got I put it out there a few times. You know, if she's available and wants wants me, I'm available, And who does she use? I

don't know. I don't know. Okay, anybody else that's the top of the list. You know, I've hit everybody. I don't know who's out there that I that you know? Right, Okay, this has been fantastic. I think we covered Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. You're kidding? Is that hit with time? Yes? Well, unless there's something specific that we have no no, no, Okay, you've been wonderful till next time. This is Bob left,