If you know it's a company that has been around for some time, and they have had training in one way, shape, or form in the past, and the person interviewing you for the job hasn't bothered to look into it... That is a bad sign.
Hello friends and welcome to the BLOC, the Building Learning and Organizational Culture podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby, and on this episode, we have Latoya Smith, who is Director of Support and Training at EDX wireless. Latoya also used to be my manager when we worked together at NASA and has become one of my dear friends. We talk about how to bring positive change to organizations, and how to tell if a potential employer truly values learning during the interview process. I hope you enjoy this episode after a brief word from our sponsor, Verasana.
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Hi, LaToya. Thanks for joining me on the BLOC.
Hey, Heidi, how are you?
Good! How are you doing?
I'm pretty good. Thanks for having me today.
Of course. So let's just start with you telling me a little bit about your story, your background, how you got to where you are now... whatever you want to share.
Originally, and most people don't believe it, I'm from Brooklyn, New York. Born and raised. No, I don't have an accent. I've worked really hard on it. But in general, I can attribute a lot of my success today because of how I grew up and where I grew up... back in a time where elders were a large part of the community, and they truly believe that it takes a village to raise a child and my elders had a significant impact on my childhood from the age of three. And that just carried on through school and everything else. I had a tendency to really connect with the senior community, and most of my teachers were of or near retiring age. So all the way through high school, I just gravitated to those types of individuals as role models. And I was one of those strange children that actually liked going to school. I didn't look forward to the summertime because I didn't get to spend time with my teachers. So, I appreciated education from a young age. And it wasn't until I joined the military that I realized that there is an opportunity to introduce learning aspects into every part of my career. I, from the age of 19, I've been working in a capacity of adult learning, with members of our church, mostly senior citizens or working with the veteran members of the first comp-, the first job I ever had as a benefits analyst for Rockwell and Boeing, working with the older employees on using Excel properly and Microsoft Access, microfiche, and converting that information and importing it. Then, when I joined the military, I realized the same thing happens there. I was working a lot with the senior chiefs and the warrant officers and introducing the new systems that they would use - adult learning principles. I didn't know what it was at the time, but that's what I was working with. And I understood that everyone was different and they were unique. Later, after I left the military after being a military instructor, I decided I really liked that stuff. But I don't want to be just the person in front of the classroom, I want to design the courses because that's the part that counts. People can become - you can learn to be a good facilitator, but it's the content and the interaction that really carries the weight of the learning. So I threw myself into what was a very new concept called instructional design. And because at the time instructional design was a very strange concept, I couldn't really find jobs. One of the first things I did was I took my my master's degree, and I started my own business. And I said, Well, there are lots of small businesses out there. And I bet you if I can help them teach their customers about their products and services, that customers are more likely to purchase. You don't have to sell as hard when your customers fully understand the benefits of the product or service. And after doing that, for about three or four years, I said, "Hey, you know this shows that I can take these same principles anywhere." I worked with carpet companies, carpet cleaning, plumbing, roofing, bankers, and it was the same principle. Helping them to educate their customers was the way to get more referrals. When I started looking at government contract opportunities, it was the same principle of - we can avoid safety and security issues through proper proper training and information. And very often if there's an incident, whether it be in healthcare or the petroleum industry or maritime, in many cases, the incidents are on the rise when training is down and getting customers and getting companies to see that when you treat training as an afterthought, you're going to have a lot more casualties - a lot more incidents. Because training is a chore, it's not seen as an aid to do the job better. And in general, I wanted people to enjoy or appreciate the training experience rather than feel obligated or that training was a punishment. That has always been my passion is to make people see that the trouble you went through from K through 12 doesn't have to be the only thing you think of when you think of training or learning and development. So I approach every situation in one where I am the learner and I let the other person know that they are the subject matter expert and to treat this this meeting or this conversation as a "help me learn about what it is you do." And then once you are done doing that, tell me or explain to me what your obstacles are. And then once we identify that, you share with me, what are your ideas for overcoming those obstacles? And before you know it, we're doing a training needs assessment.
Sure. Right?
And they they are much more forthcoming, and they are open to the process. And they realize that the initial conversation is just the foundation or the groundwork for introducing a development solution that's going to help them to overcome all of these pain points that they've been experiencing. And in doing that, they realize this is for their benefit; I'm not going to gain anything out of it. It's their product, it's their training when I leave, and I really am interested in helping them to avoid these nasty situations. Working in healthcare, we know what's going to happen if training, you know, ends up falling to the wayside. It means increases in infection, mortality rates. If we're working in the electrical industry, we can have fires or we can have, you know, casualties due to electrocution. If we are working in petroleum and you know, working at a refinery, the regulatory and compliance training is there for a reason. And in that situation just explaining to the customer a comparison of workers comp cases, health insurance, life insurance being associated, or premiums associated with poor safety training can result in more of these instances. So I think that's how I get people to really open up to the the idea of what it is I'm trying to help them accomplish. Because they realize there is value in this the return on investment may not necessarily be financial, not straightforward, but the savings both in downtime or casualties or loss of property or products is something that they do you find very attractive, and they realize these are things that we've overlooked. And we can address them now with training to drive down the costs of not having a proper system in place. So I think that's why I've been so successful. Ive told them I'm a turbulent advocate.
Oh, I like it.
And as far as my personality goes, it's because I want to help people. And I identified a method for helping them that easily allows them to see what's in it for them from day one, if I'm successful in helping them to see that side of the equation.
Sure. So what advice would you give someone who's relatively new to l&d, who hasn't really had the same types of experiences that you have, when they encounter some, you know, typical roadblocks to that openness... like they're doing what you're doing, they're they're showing the value, but maybe the organization is still saying, "well, we don't we don't want to invest money in l&d," or "this is how we've always done things," right?
You have to discover the why just like, you know, Simon Sinek says, you have to figure out why they're saying no. It's one thing to take no for an answer. It's another thing to find out why they're saying no. And just as we do with the needs assessment, we're looking to see if it's a knowledge gap, maybe they don't fully understand the implications of what this training can help them to achieve. Is it a skill where they don't think that they have enough people in place to pull this off? Or is it a either an aptitude where they don't know what they don't know? But then we also throw in that extra the attitude, you know, why these negative connotations associated with training, why is it so easy for you to say no? It's not the psychologists approach to you know, "who hurt you?" But you do have to dig deeper and find out, "what poor experience did you have to make you think of training this way?" Because we have to address that. Because in this instance, that is the barrier to the learning objective, to the performance objective, the attitude, but that poor experience - that flashback of oh my gosh, I went through this before I'm not doing it again. We have to address that and help them through transitioning from that state of mind into one where they are able to see the positives. And that is very time consuming.
Sure.
If someone is going through this, and they are frustrated, "oh, they just keep telling me no." You have to stop. You have to do a self assessment and see: are you willing to put in the additional effort to get beyond the no? And it may not be that this turns into an opportunity, but you investing the time to help identify what the barrier is that customer, that manager, they're going to remember the amount of effort you put into helping them identify the origin of the problem, which may open other opportunities for you in the future. But when they say no, dig deeper! Now, try not to be annoying. But approach them in a way that lets them know I understand this is no, can you tell me a little bit more about the why? Can you tell me about the history of this issue because it shows them that you are invested and helping them to develop this training solution. And that is far more valuable than any training course that you can put together. Because if you put a course together, and they haven't changed their mind, then you've wasted your effort to get to the root of the problem and avoid wasting their time and yours. Figure out what the problem really is. There are so many companies that throw training around as a solution, but they don't really want to invest the time and energy into really addressing the problem. If you can help them do that, it'll be worth - it'll really help you go far. And then that helps you to build the reputation that you're looking for and the past experience that many organizations are looking for because you may have managers or executives where, "I think it's a great idea. But you have to help me convince this guy over here." That experience comes in. And some people say, "LaToya, you're a good salesman." I said, "No, I'm really good at helping people identify why they want to or don't want to do something." And once we have identified the why we can identify a strategy for addressing that why and getting beyond it.
No, that makes total sense. So, you made me think of something. I was just talking earlier today about how there's a lot of new instructional designers entering the field and a lot of instructional designers are, you know, asking some great important questions about how do I make a portfolio? How do I brand myself? But what I want to ask you is this because I think you always have a really good knack for this. If I'm a new instructional designer, and I'm going on an interview, what kind of questions can I ask to figure out if the organization actually values learning instead of just saying they value learning?
Okay, first, I know you didn't ask this question, but I will give you one reason why there's been a boom of instructional designers.
Yeah, for sure.
It's because of the economy and it is because of COVID. You and I both know as learning professionals, when there's nothing else for our employees to do, what do they do? Training. In many government and some private entities, they have their - no one's selling, no one's buying. But we have this bucket of money that needs to be spent. "Isn't there some training that we can repurpose?" So many companies that never really had a solid training offering for their product or service are scrambling to better educate the users, the end users. During this downtime, they're becoming more proficient. So in this case, we have COVID. You have people, especially in a government, they still have work, you know, they have work they're supposed to be doing but part of the economy, part of the industry that they're in is moving. So what do they do in the private sector, you know, if you want to keep talent, you have to keep them engaged, and one of the biggest perks of corporate America right now is education. So, between the government and government entities trying to spend the funds before the end of the fourth quarter for 2020. And then those who are trying to retain talent for when the economy comes back between the industries, private industries, government entities, and organizations that are trying to sell training, you have a need for instructional designers or learning professionals in every capacity, those who can develop the actual courses, those can that can help with the needs assessment and analysis, those who can evaluate the effectiveness of your training, every step every phase of the development, process implementation and evaluation. You need instructional designers today and content developers. So that is one of the big reasons you're seeing this huge trend towards instructional design, every entity, every agency, you can think of right now is looking at training in one way or another and haven't dedicated resources to it before they are doubling down right now. So that's part one, you have to question you didn't ask.
That is all right. I love it.
As far as the interview questions, the things that you want to identify when you're interviewing with a company, to really make sure they're invested is number one: you want to ask about the history of their learning and development program or their training department. Ask them how it started as how it has grown over the years and where it is today. If they can't answer that question, it's either because they haven't invested time into researching that, which is a, or they don't have that to recall, which is a different type of flag. If they can't tell you that they didn't have this prior to, then that's okay. At least they're looking to invest into that area of their company now. However, if you know it's a company that has been around for some time, and they have had training in one way, shape, or form in the past, and the person interviewing you for the job hasn't bothered to look into itm that is a bad sign - that they don't value the role that you will be fulfilling or the department that you'll be working with. Another question you can ask is to see a sample of their training content. It'll give you an opportunity to see do they tend to outsource it? Or is it internal, i.e., death by PowerPoint? (Heidi laughs) Either way, you'll be able to determine either how much or how much time they have invested in their program in the past, and that should give you a good way of determining how they will treat any work that you contribute to the organization. Another is you want to find out how their training or learning and development department interacts with other aspects of the business, okay, to know that you're not pigeon-holed and you're not working or developing in a vacuum. If the only department you're working with is the human resources department... run. If an organization is only worried about training for human resources department, it is training designed to either keep people in line or to keep people out of trouble or to keep the company out of trouble.
Sure.
If you are a fan of working to develop training to enforce rules and make people do things that they wouldn't normally do, go for it. If training is only there to keep people in line, then you know that your training is valued to say - help save the company money. And it's not the same type of money you save by preventing death or casualties. It's the type of training that is check the box so that you can move on... Check this box every year, so that you can get your bonus. Check this box to say that you understand and then go about your business. It that typically has no measures for reinforcement, evaluation, or reimplementation. If the training program's improvement is to go from PowerPoint to Captivate - run. Because you need to be doing more than just converting the PowerPoint slide to Captivate or a Storyline and Lectora. That is a sign that they are doing the same thing just using type of technology. And if you'd like a job where you just are there to maintain the status quo, please be my guest. But that's not the type of development that you want to start with. If you want to grow in this industry, you need to look for those opportunities where the company wants you to grow. They want their department to grow; they want their employees to grow. Those are the types of questions that will help you to identify that.
Yeah, I also mentioned one earlier, I made a short post on LinkedIn. And it was to ask them (employers) what professional development opportunities they've given their l&d team in the last year.
Yes.
To see if they invest in their own team, you know,
The regular list is what learning management system are you using? What learning methodologies have you implemented? What have you learned from those learning methodologies? How have you updated your approach as an organization when it comes to learning and development and however many years, and then of course, what authoring tool have you been using?
A hiring manager, who's going to be who this person is going to be reporting to, should be able to answer that. Right?
If they can't - worry - I won't say run. I have been a part of an organization we'll say, where the director didn't know would ADDIE stood for. As a matter of fact, this person thought it was a person.
Gotcha.
Now, I will say that this person was really one of my best champions within the organization to get things done. And it was one of those they don't know what they don't know. So they knew they wanted it. They wanted to learn. But then the other side of it is, they don't know because they haven't invested time. Now, yes, that leader should have known what ADDIE was, and they should have understood what an instructional designer does, but I can't tell you how often, interviews from recruiters and hiring managers became a reverse classroom, so to speak, of me teaching them about instructional design, what they should be looking for in a candidate, and that I was no longer interested in the opportunity.
(laughs) I love it. Yeah, yeah. "Well, here's what you should be looking for in someone - who's not me."
(chuckles) Exactly. Well, and this is something that instructional designers and learning professionals will encounter and you will agree again and again, because of the lack of understanding of just how impactful a good designer is, they undervalue the role and therefore they often aren't willing to compensate you at a rate that reflects what you'll be bringing into the organization. And usually in that situation, when I have to turn down the opportunity, because it's not always about the the paycheck, it's about the value of my role-
and the investment that they're willing to make-
and also in some cases it's because they don't really understand what they're asking for. And instructional design is a buzzword. And they think if they take a typical description and put instructional design at the head of it, that they'll get the people that they're looking for. And I have actually accepted some opportunities on a contractual basis, where my skills were not utilized. It was a sure cut and paste job, and that is not going to help you grow. So I often left those opportunities because there was no opportunity there.
That's really good... All right. So I have one last question for you. And I think it's kind of a fun one.
Okay.
What is one book, movie, TED Talk, infographic, piece of media, right? One piece of media that you would suggest people consume in our field to help them better understand how to be impactful at an organization.
I think you and - I think I've even told you about him - I love Sir Ken Robinson, and his TED Talk led me to read his book, Finding your Element. And I have recommended that book to so many people, even my boss now, I recommend it to - I recommended that he read the book. My husband read the book; it changed his career path to where he's doing a PhD now in education technology. The CEO of the company I work for now read the book, and he and I actually started talking about it. and he realized just how impactful that book was on my life. And it has less to do with instructional design. It's more about finding your passion in life and doing the things that you enjoy, and in instructional design and the learning profession, if you are really passionate about it, you will find a way to work it into any industry, you don't have to be in the educational field in order to really make an impact as an instructional designer. And the whole idea of what Ken Robinson presented to me the first time I heard his TED talk was, you know, learning should be more engaging, and not just for K through 12. So that's what I took away from it. Of course, you know that we took our kids out of public school and introduced them to Montessori, and then to home school, and then to online school because we had really pivoted our family's approach to education as a result. But it also helped us to realize that putting your all into what you're doing, if you're really passionate about it, you'll be rewarded no matter how much you're getting paid or what company you're working for. The work is rewarding because it's what you really want to be doing. It's what we tell our kids. It's what I tell others when I'm providing, you know, professional coaching. And if you can do that, then you can sleep well every night and you can enjoy your weekends, and when you're not working, you can relax because I can't tell you how rewarding it is to go to work every day to wake up in the morning and not dread going into the office. That's unheard of in this day and age. Day after day, enjoy the people that you're working with. The contributions that you're making are appreciated. And you are working with people who are of the same mind. That's...that's what it's all about. And that book helped me to realize that it doesn't matter, you know, where we are or what I'm doing. If I can have that feeling and get out of my day and my week and my month with a career that speaks to who I am as a person and what I want to get out of life, then that's - then you go for it. Instructional designers -it will hit them two-fold as it relates to education and their profession.
Great. Thank you so much. And thank you for being one of my first guests on the BLOC.
Thanks again for having me. You know, you can have me anytime.
Of course! We'll do it again sometime.
Absolutely.
Thanks again for joining me on the BLOC. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon. Transcribed by https://otter.ai