However, one thing that I see designers do wrong is they will come. They will put more than one type of font on the piece. And but they'll be the same font category
Hello friends, and welcome to the black, the building learning and organizational culture podcast. I'm your host Heidi Kirby. On today's show, I talked to Dr. Daqn DiPeri, about how she blends graphic design and instructional design to be a successful small business owner. She also gives graphic design tips to new instructional designers. So this is a must listen. Hi, Dawn, how are you?
Hi, I'm great. Nice to talk to you today.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited. So if you could just start by telling me a little bit about you about your career journey. Any fun facts you want to share too?
Sure. Well, I am a graphic designer and an instructional designer. And and I'm Dawn DiPeri by the way. And I have been teaching in higher ed as an online professor, face to face and hybrid mainly in the areas of visual communication and interpersonal communication since 2012. At the same time, that's when I started my own graphic design firm. And only in the last like year or so did we start adding our instructional
design capabilities to that. So small business owner, professor, and then my the third thing that I juggle is I work for Harvard University as a learning designer. So do a few different things.
Just a few. That's great. That's awesome. So how did you get into like the instructional design piece of it?
Yeah, so because I had a background in graphic design, I've like been able to work in a lot of different software. So like, I used to teach Adobe Illustrator and InDesign and Photoshop. And I also taught New Media Communications where I would teach things like public speaking, you know, Intro to Computers. So long story short, I had a passion for technology
and a passion for design. And because I was designing my own courses, I technically was an instructional designer, you know, before I called myself one. And then I got my doctorate in higher ed teaching and learning. And there, I just became really excited about just like the pedagogy, you know, planning curriculum, and it also had a pretty big component in
change management. So, because at the time we were doing some consultations with businesses on change management, brand management, rebranding, things like that. So it actually worked out pretty cool that like when I finished my doctorate in March, not that it was cool, I mean, the pandemic has nothing to be it's not cool. Even the death in
the family, but I'm over it. But around the time that I finished my doctorate, and I had all of this, like deep, you know, knowledge and worked on some curriculum stuff with my dissertation. That's when there was such a need for organizations and universities to migrate their courses online. So that became an area that I
was able to be employed in. My first job in instructional design as a title was with the Center for Higher Education Leadership, which is now brighter, higher ed. So I helped them to develop some professional development courses. And I met Dr. Terry Gibbons through a online space called gather for women in higher ed. So cool, yeah, once I have that under my belt, then she became one of my references for Harvard. And so I started working for Harvard in October.
So that's super cool. Is it as cool as it sounds to work for Hartford.
It is very rewarding. And it's amazing. And I love it so so much, but it is very demanding. And I just work in the sense that like, it's a lot of work, and it's like, requires a lot of focus and attention. And so in the past, I've juggled so many things, as I just mentioned, and I really have to when I'm working on projects for them, just kind of like shut off all notifications. Just stay like in, you know, in it. Like, yeah, it can be
intense work, but I love it. So it's the perfect amount of challenging.
Nice. Yeah, because my first instructional design job was with NASA. And so people are always like, is it as cool as it sounds? Yeah, I'm like, in some ways, yes. But Like in other ways, government just moves really slowly. Yeah. So like the the software we were using and the tools we were using in the instructional design space were a little bit lacking. They just hadn't quite caught up to the times yet. But
like, it's NASA. So yeah, like it was cool to like walk into work and see like the NASA logo, you know what I mean? So
I guess is the best part about working for an organization like NASA or Harvard is you're working with some of the like, smartest, like most accomplished people in the world. So like, that's though, it's inspiring and exciting. And it's sure, I love the intellectual atmosphere. I think I crave that.
Very cool. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your small business and how that got started.
Yeah. So before I started my small business, I was going into Manhattan and like working in ad agencies, they're doing some freelance. I was also employed in publishing originally as a graphic designer. So I did like newspapers and magazines, that kind of thing is where I kind of got my start. And then we live on the east end of Long Island and going to the city was kind of a bear who's like a lot of you. So I met my business partner in my town, she had a daughter the same age as my son.
And we one day just started like chatting. And we're like, we're both graphic designers, we're both going into the city, we both have this very, like high level of quality, because when you work for, you know, York City or portion of 500 brands you like, bring a certain panache to your work. So we had that. But then we noticed, hey, Long Island advertising doesn't look that hot. Like we tease it and make fun of it sometimes, like, this is terrible typography or the, you know,
what were they thinking? That's a horrible headline or whatever, you know, we would tease it. So we got to these conversations. And we're like, you know, we're in the Hamptons area. And this is where there's like higher end consumers and we have this high quality products. Why don't we or service? Why don't we open up shop together? So we looked at each other's portfolios, we realized like we were a good pair, like where she lacked I had where I lack she had, and we've been partners ever since.
So it was like a little Meech, that works really well.
That's great. So as an instructional designer, I get like this. I guess I guess you would call it a pet peeve from people like outside of the fields when you know, you're talking about a project or they're pitching an idea. And I can't tell you how many times in my career that this has happened to me because it's that many, but someone will inevitably say, well, then we can hand it off to Heidi and she can make it
pretty. So I would imagine that as like a combo instructional designer, graphic designer, that you've probably heard the same thing quite a bit. Yeah. Is it as much of a pet peeve to you as it is, to me? I just feel like it's such a gross oversimplification.
Oh, I know. Yeah. I know what you mean, it's more than just making things pretty. So I like I feel like sometimes people don't realize, like graphic designers have the level of education and expertise than the it's not that they just know software because they know so many programs. They know the theory. And so like when you're when you're employing a graphic designer, like you're, you're employing somebody who's a
strategist. So they have this strategy, they have the creativity, they have this theory with color typography. And they have the business sense to like, they're not just artists, like I consider myself like an artist and like a technician and like a combo, you know, yeah. So I totally get what you say. Because it's like, not that easy. And if you want a high level, high quality of work, you have to like pay for that, you know, so and you want your end product is going to be better if you do
for sure. And yeah, and I think that, at least for me coming from teaching, and maybe this is true of other teachers as well. We have that. We've created lessons. You know, we've designed curricula, like we've done, you know, implemented different explicit learning experiences. But the big hole for me was graphic design. Yeah. Like I'm a crafty person. Yeah. But like, the digital design space was just super foreign to me and I thought I like I know what looks
good. But like then being asked to replicate that was like a big hurdle. And I was very lucky early on in my career to be able to work with somebody who had I think her degree was in like news media, something related to journalism were very like, do Design heavy, like I would send everything I ever made to her and get her feedback and look at her stuff. And it really helps a lot to kind of hone those skills
I was missing. But what are some of like the top gaps that you see or tips that you would give to instructional designers who really lack that graphic design piece?
Yeah, I see a lot of them. And I've been trying to help on LinkedIn where I see like, instructional designers make posts about typography or color, or just, it's so many things like there are a lot of gaps. And I came up with this idea of creating these courses for instructional designers,
because I see so many. And I think it's because they come from a varied background, like a lot of instructional designers or former K through 12 educators, or maybe they have a history background, they have a lot of skills that they bring to the table, but they don't have the expertise that aesthetics. So some of the big things that I see that are blaringly, like, red flags, to me are color
theory. So like color theory is like, is pretty like, it's not that as complex, I feel like I do a good job of teaching of it. But there's a lot that goes into it. So for example, one thing is just like one tiny thing that I see a lot is putting two colors together that don't have enough contrast. So what that creates is it makes it harder for the viewer to read it. And it's also not accessible. So you're like a UDL framework person, which wherever we all should be, we
have to keep that in mind. So like blue on Orange was something that I saw recently, but they were both the same value. So meaning like if you had like a really dark color and a really light color, then you can see. So that's the idea of contrast. And I have a course all about contrast. But the other thing with color theory is the psychology of color. So since I've worked with clients, and I understand their target audience, I will design for the
audience. So I kind of know the psychology, like you don't want to do red and green. Because number one, there's no contrast number two, it's like Christmasy. Number three, it's not good for people who are colorblind. So that's just like one example is like color theory alone. So there's so much that goes into that, but like with the courses that they'll be able to, like apply it and improve their portfolio and micro learning. So like that's kind of
my goal. Like, you don't have to take a whole semester on color theory, you could just learn a little bit and then like apply it as a practitioner. And I think it'll make a big difference.
For sure enough to be dangerous, right? Yes. What about some of the typography? Oh, my
God. Yes. That's another big one. Typography. Yeah, so typography is another like, I mean, I used to teach an entire semester long course on typography. So there's a lot with that. So with online digital spaces, generally, because they're short bursts of text, we want to say that sans serif is the best way to go. However, one thing that I see designers do wrong is they will come they will put more than one type of font on the piece. And but there'll be the same font category, but there'll be
different fonts. And that's a big no, no. So what that what we want to create as designers is something called contrast. And what that creates is conflict. So it's like kind of I this is how I describe it, it almost makes your piece just not look as professional. But not just that, imagine you are this is how I explained like the idea of contrast and conflict to my
students. But like imagine you're going to paint your room, right and you paint it, I don't know, green like a sage green, and it gets dings and you go to the store and you say, um, I just need to get some sage green because I have to repaint over a spot. And they're like, Well, what exactly sage green are you getting? Anything is fine, like just this looks about right, and you go home and you pop it on? You are going to see that spot every time you sit down and it's gonna like make you tweak.
You're just like, oh, that's just like, all I look at is that spot that looks different is not the same, but it's not a contrast it's conflict. And that's what happens when you mix two fonts in the same font category. Like you shouldn't do Helvetica for a headline and Aereo for a body copy. So that's another thing that I tried to
teach. It's like, if you're going to do you want to do both, maybe for the headline and big, maybe all caps, then you do like, not all caps in the regular version of the font for the body copy stuff like that.
Sure. So I won't make you explain serif and sans serif. If you are an instructional designer, and you don't know what that means, certainly Google it. So it's important to know how
Although the word sans means without in French and serif, I tell people is that like little fee. So if you look at a font and it has like the little feet on the bottom and the top, then that's a serif font. And that's the type of font you see in a book, like a novel, because it's really long bits of text. Yes. So the, the eye from one letter form to another when you're reading over long periods of time, but nothing in elearning is long text. You know, because if it was, it wouldn't be good
learning. You know, it's not it's a different thing.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what about some of like, the some of like, the trends that we use in instructional design, I'm thinking of like, the, like, 2d people that come with elearning authoring tools are like some of the little like, clip already things that we put in there. Is there anything that you've seen that was like, trendy at one time that people just like have have kind of overused or used in a, like a strange way? Set? Question makes sense?
Yeah. Like, I mean, I've seen a lot of bad elearning. And I think we've all participated in it. And then I've seen good and in the middle, right? So I think about my experiences being the learner in this case, and like what that I've seen, that just could be improved. And like sometimes you'll be doing like, say, like an onboarding for a company or you're doing like a title for or like, you know, the sexual harassment videos, those types
of things. And sometimes what I see as the thing that is glaringly could be improved is the idea Less is more is better, like minimalist, like, what can you do when you're designing your module or your, your, whatever you want to call it, that can take as much out as possible, but still do the job. So because people think like, Let's fill this up, like, Oh, here's a button here. And here's a logo there. And here's a character here that we should add three more characters there.
Like what that does is confuse things. But if we can just distill it down to the least amount of pieces possible, then we can leave the eye of the viewer exactly where we want. And we could establish a clear hierarchy, like look here first, then read this. Now click that. And that's what we want, right?
Yeah. And there's even it's like a meme out there that does exactly that, where it's like, you read this first and then that Yes. And you're like, oh, my gosh, it's wizardry. And it's like, no, it's not wizardry. It's just graphic. Good. Graphic Design. Right? Yeah. And that was something that I was really I was bad at was like, letting there be whitespace. Oh, yeah. Right. Like being okay with it.
I was like, oh, no, like, it looks too plain, you know, the further you get, the more you realize, like, you want it to be played. And when I started studying cognitive load and kind of read on that. It's like, get rid of the seductive details, right? Like, you don't want all the stuff in there that takes away from things. And one other thing that I learned pretty early on was like, navigation counts. So like, if you are trying to be creative, right? Like navigation is not the place
to be creative. If you're creating like a set of five courses for the same end users. Yeah. And I've seen people they like use, like different buttons in different places for different courses. And that's like, that's cognitive overload. Your learner should not have to take any brain power to relearn the next and back and play for every course. Right?
Yeah, consistency. And that is something that is like a key component in both graphic design and instructional design. And one of the things that I feel is that if it's me as an instructional designer, because I can look at a course all of the modules and right away, I noticed like, hey, this header looks different, or this next button is here, but it's not there, not pleat piece. And you like you said, you want to minimize the cognitive load and just make it easier for the
learner. So it's a good point. So
you are currently working on a graphic design course it's not read. It's not completed yet. It's not launched yet. It's not
launched yet. But I have completed a couple. I am in the process of getting people to, to submit a form on my website under its eastern advertising. And then when you click on instructional design, there's a form because I want to do some beta testing first with a few people so like I'll not charge them and let them take the courses and experience it and then try to determine what I
want to do. After so this is what I'm thinking, what I have in the courses, is it their micro learning, none of them take longer than 45 minutes. And at the end, everybody gets an infographic that sums up what they learned. And then I'll have a community also. And if you participate in the community that you have the available ability to like, share your portfolio with others, which I think is really helpful. Have or graphic design. So,
yeah, very cool. I think I signed up for that already.
So okay, cool. I know Sorry for the delay on that. No,
no problem. I'm just really excited about it is all Yeah, I'll definitely share the link to your website in the show notes so that people can start getting signed up or choose if they want a beta test or anything, because I think that's a really great thing that you're doing this specifically for instructional design, because like I said, it's such a, especially for so many people that come from education, like graphic design, it's not really a job component for being a college professor.
No, no, not at all. But I see more and more on job descriptions that they want. Yeah, design skills. And like sometimes you'll see not just the course authoring software that's asked for it, but like Adobe products. So I've taught Adobe products I hate mentioned
for a long time. So trying to see how I could teach that as well my courses so far that I've developed for all theory based, and you can use them with like any kind of software, but I am going to do some very specific tutorial type of courses and things like Illustrator and, and related to what type of project you would do for instructional design thing, like developing a C and or things like that.
Sure, absolutely. Well, and I think that it's becoming more common to use, like the Adobe Creative Cloud Suite almost in place of a storyline or a Captivate these days, because like, it just takes so long to develop courses and those authoring tools. Yeah. So people are kind of moving to the, you know, less time to development tools like your Photoshop and illustrators. Yeah, even like
even PowerPoint. I've seen so many. Yeah, on there. Yeah.
And PowerPoints become pretty robust. And yes, for years, it's lazy. I'm like, okay, PowerPoint, like, I still cringe when I'm like, oh,
no, I used to be like, I'm only gonna do like, prezi.com. And like, he knows, like, I'm cool. Professor. Screw like PowerPoint. Yeah. I'm like, actually, I could like even developer, like a scenario based learning with like PowerPoint, like, wow, or an animated GIF. Like, it didn't used to have that capability.
It's come a long way. So good for PowerPoint, because you like you can couple that with like, Adobe Creative Cloud and make some pretty awesome portfolio pieces, just with the two of those. Yeah, I
agree, because of the other software is expensive. And it's like, so yeah, it's nice that you can use tools. And I'm always trying to do that. Because sometimes you have clients that are just like, you know, I only have this like, and you have to be creative. And that's kind of the fun thing about being an instructional designer, like how can I execute
this? And what tools are available to me and you have all these choices and decisions to make, but it's not like your tools like you can never blame your tool. It's like when you're an artist, it's like you have to show?
Yeah, on that note, do you know or do you have any recommendations for like the top three graphic design tools for instructional designers like in terms of like ease of use? That kind of thing?
Yeah. So like, like I said, if you go to my website, Easton advertising, I click on instructional design and submit that form, you'll get a curated list of some of the top resources. So that'll be some books, some authors, websites, things like that podcasts. However, like for just ease of use, I know a lot of people do Canva. So I know that's like something that people are using.
But you also like one thing with Canva that I noticed is that you have to still know the typography and like color theory and stuff because you can use it but if you're switching out the colors, you still need to be aware of some of the things that we talked about before but at least that's free and that's easy to use. So I know that that's one software everybody uses. Yeah, so but like I said, if you submit that form, you should get a pretty extensive
curated list of stuff. And it just like learn, you know, it's so fun you can learn like I think one of the things I have on there is like a movie about Helvetica. Has anybody ever seen that documentary?
I had it like in my Netflix things to watch at one point, but I think I ever actually watched it, like I just couldn't. It sounds boring
is why. I mean, I'm a nerd. So I find it exciting, but like it interviews like a lot of different graphic designers that are, you know, really well versed in their work. And it just talks about so many things like the psychology
of fonts. So and like we talked about with psychology of color, certain colors give you certain, you know, meanings, and you apply them for certain reasons, Typography is the same way like Helvetica, is used a lot in like government, you know, so it's very, like, kind of, like default, like, you see it everywhere. And it's like, it talks about, like the history of it, but it's also a very
beautiful aesthetic font. And like, so many ways down to like, even the terminal of like, the E is like, perfectly horizontal. So as part of the Swiss dot movement, so that's like about minimalism, and that those types of that type of theory can be applied as an instructional designer, when we talk about like, paring down. So just by watching that one film, for example, you can learn so much and improve your practice in so many ways with typography alone.
So I don't even need to ask you like the last question now. You just answered it, which is perfect. And that's okay. Because I'm gonna put a link to that form. And then I'll probably just throw in a link to if the movie is still on Netflix, I might throw that in there, too. Yeah, directly to the movie.
And the other, the other book, books i Which way is the non designers design book, and I had to my last review, Yeah, cuz it talks about contrast, repetition, alignment, and proximity. And in my courses, I'm developing courses all along those theories that just can help you improve your practice and just small ways.
Yes. The acronym for witches. Yep.
You remember it? Yes, I liked that book, because it does give you like practical examples and shows before and after. So, which I think is really important. And so like when I'm doing my course. So for example, for my contracts course, I show bad examples and good examples. And then I kind of talk about why because it is graphic design. So it's a very visual, and then at the end, you actually have a file that you
can play with yourself. And then like, do the like the optional like assessment, and then they so they get to play with it and like see if their result, like their deliverable is good or bad, and kind of why and health like self assess. And if they're part of the community, they can then bring it in there. And then they like to get feedback from either me or other peers. But I'm hoping to create, like a community of practice, like with a very
cool, that sounds great. So as far as like graphic design trends, what I see a lot of times, and the instructional design world is you'll get somebody who will design a series of courses, and then leave them for years. And they're still being used, and the content is still being updated. But if you go into this course, you're like 2008, called they want their course back, right? What would be your recommendation for how often to revisit and reconsider updating a course, just based on aesthetics?
Yeah, there's definitely trends in graphic design. And they're kind of a result like, just like art and art history, graphic design trends are kind of along that same line. And it's almost a response to what's happening societally. So if you study the history of graphic design, and you see the way the movements have happened, they coincide with different things like the Cold War started the propaganda movement, and you saw, like a certain type of design that way.
You saw, like the David Carson of the 90s were a result of like the grunge movement. So you saw, you know, a lot of like, kind of distressed typography, like layering of just just more busyness. And then like after because of all of that it like had a backlash and then it went into more minimalism and more like distill down stuff. I can name so many different you know, there was the Bauhaus movement and the 80s and like how that coincided with just like advertising of graphic design at
the time. So yes, it's definitely can be dated. Like I remember back in the early 2000s, with the turn of the millennial. We were looking at typography that looked like Grand Theft Auto. You know that fine. Yeah. Everybody will tell you why. So like, if you look at a course that has that you're like, that's really dated. And just like, I see like, every, like 10 years, you need to
update just like any design. So if you watch my, my husband, like, sometimes we'll watch those like HGTV shows, and we're like, redesigning and interior design. And you'll notice the way trends look, and within 10 years, like, before, it was all wood cabinets. 10 years ago, now, everybody has white cabinets, right? So but like, eventually it's going to change. So I'd say like 10 years max, and then that you're gonna see like a whole new movement again.
But maybe one of the benefits to having the minimalist design too, is that you do kind of create a little bit more of a timeless look, right? Like, yeah, kind of like your house, right? Like, yeah, if I try not to pick something way too trendy, because I know in like three years, I'm going to be like, Why did I do that? Right? Like, I don't want to be ripping out my kitchen cabinets. Because I went with like, the blue color. That's super hot right now like that in five
years. I'm like, oh, man, this blue is not going to be gonna stand the test of time.
Yeah, I know. I mean, I'm a designer, and I made that same mistake. Like we had the page where we first bought and then I was so bored with it. I'm like, I'm gonna do like a bluish color. And then literally six months later, I was like, Oh, I hate this color. I'm so tired of it. And only recently do we paint it gray? And like, oh, yeah, I get it. But no, it's interesting. I agree. There's
the classics. So when you take a typography class, sometimes professors, a lot of them that I know, will force you not to use trendy fonts. So say, you have to use like the gara mons or the Adobe Caslon that Helvetica like, like the standard tried and true, you know, no display fonts, like just and then do you have the you can be proficient in the in the classics, I guess I'll call them, then you can, then you will know how to do
other things. And like, there's so many things to like with typography in terms of like, how tight the letter spacing is the kerning between letters, the space between words like all of that is also like so typography can get like very minutia II. But the better you are with it, the better your portfolio pieces, and the more high end it looks. So those small changes that you can make will make a big difference. So like for kerning, that anytime you type, anything that has a W and then
an A, there's a big gap. So you want to move those two letters closer together. Because if you don't, anybody who's a graphic designer, or hiring for graphic designer is going to be see that in your portfolio and be like, Oh, that is like glaring, I noticed that like you're paying attention to detail. So like just little things make a big
difference. And you could see that in people's portfolios, like somebody that like my portfolio after working for over 15 years looks very different than someone who just started out in college. So
sure, it's the same in any field, but what so what you're saying is, we probably shouldn't use Comic Sans.
No, yes. No Comic Sans no hobo and no papyrus ever.
Yes. So keep that in mind that there are fonts that everyone dislikes much like, Well, I'm not gonna say the names of any bands. You all know the band that starts with the letter and that everyone dislikes so I won't blast on my podcast, but yes, there are fonts that are widely hated. Is that
Yeah. Designers? Yeah. Yeah. And some of them are really overused. So like Papyrus is on like every pizza Italian Greek restaurant menu. It's used in the holistic environment. It's just a terrible fine. It's kind of hard to read. It's just, it's not a great, you know, and Comic Sans. People think like, oh, this is for kids. So I'm going to use Comic Sans because it's like, kid like, but it just
looks unprofessional. So you might want to use something that's like, a rounded font instead, you know, like this, or like, I don't know, there's other, there's other better solutions. The only place that Comic Sans has really existed in appropriately, which I don't even think is true is probably in the comic book sector. Sometimes you see it there. But again, that's not good for long. That's not good for the professional sphere.
Sure, absolutely. Well, you already answered my final question of what resources that you would suggest for people who want to learn to graphic design. So those are all the questions I had for you. We're really looking forward to your graphic design course and community and thanks for joining me today
thank you so much have a really great day
you know thanks again for joining me on the BLOC, if you enjoyed this episode please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform I hope you'll tune in again soon