10: Finding Your L&D Style with Veronica Reed

Veronica Reed  0:00  
Even when there's moments where you kind of get some pushback, or even if, you know, you get some feedback you don't really like or something just doesn't work - I know that I am waking up every day and I want to help the employee. That's my main thing.

Heidi Kirby  0:23  
Hello friends, and welcome to the BLOC, the Building Learning and Organizational Culture podcast. I'm your host Heidi Kirby. On today's episode, we have Veronica Reed, also known as The Learning Queen, who is a learning experience designer. We talk about the importance of having an instructional design or learning and development style, as well as a philosophy, which is a little bit deeper. I hope you enjoy this episode after a brief word from our sponsor, Verasana.

Verasana Narrator  0:57  
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Heidi Kirby  1:26  
Hi, Veronica, how are you?

Veronica Reed  1:28  
I'm good. How are you?

Heidi Kirby  1:30  
Good. So let's start with you. Tell me a little bit about yourself and your background, how you made it into instructional design, and any fun facts you want to share? 

Veronica Reed  1:41  
Sure, so hello everyone, my name is Veronica Reed, and I started off working in human resources, but my background was a generalist - so all of the fun crazy things at work, you know, and a lot of the things you never thought you would deal with with adults. But as I was kind of in human resources, I really gravitated towards, like, the training and development and kind of talent development side of it. And so I discovered through volunteering with my local ATD chapter in Dallas, that there was a world called instructional design and kind of learning and development. And so I was like, "okay, yes, I really like this." And I had an unfortunate job transition - it was unexpected. And so I was like, "Okay, this is the time." I believe, you know, things do happen for a reason. I was like, "You know what, this is the time to kind of just buckle down and really get serious about making the transition." So that's when I kind of really looked into creating a portfolio, really starting to make connections on LinkedIn  and really decided to kind of learn the tools that you need, and really just learn the science behind instructional design and how I can use my skills that I've already had, as HR generalist and kind of translate that over. So, that's kind of been the journey, and I finally was able to land a role as a learning experience designer - so very excited about that. But it's also really good to be able to use the skills that I've already developed, you know,  especially the consultation piece, you know, dealing with a lot of employees and managers, so I'm already kind of used to that. So being able to translate that over is exciting. So, I don't really have any fun facts about me, I guess the main fact is now during quarantine, I have really gotten serious about cycling again. I am not like a hardcore road cyclist, you know, like 20 - 30 miles, but you know, one of my goals was to get back on a bicycle and be able to ride at least 10 miles in a row, and I finally reached that goal. I was surprised.

Heidi Kirby  3:49  
Nice. I just bought a bicycle this summer to for the first time in - gosh - years. I can't ride 10 miles on it, but -

Veronica Reed  3:59  
I started slow. 

Heidi Kirby  4:02  
Of course. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but it took me like three months to actually get the bicycle because they were like going like crazy during quarantine. 

Veronica Reed  4:10  
So I was kind of on the leading edge. So when I went home in like March, I was like, let me get the bike. So they still had a few options. But I think, like, the next couple weeks after that everything was gone. So now you can't find not a good one. 

Heidi Kirby  4:28  
Yeah, it's crazy the things that you did wouldn't expect would have been flying off the shelves during quarantine - like home improvement projects, outdoor stuff. Yeah. Cool. All right. So for the Central Ohio ATD Emerging Professionals Showcase - Say that three times fast - you presented on the importance of finding your instructional design or talent development or learning and development style/philosophy. Could you just tell me a little bit about why you decided to choose that as a topic because I think that's important to our field right now to have that conversation?

Veronica Reed  5:12  
I think one thing, for me, is when I did start following, like people on LinkedIn, or just kind of the thought leaders, or just different people and learning development, everything was, you know, pretty positive, but then I noticed that, you know, a lot of people just weren't as happy or excited about their jobs as, as they used to be. And there's just a lot of pushback, I think a lot of people, you know, dealing with corporations, you know, and dealing with corporate America, in general, there's gonna be a lot of restrictions. And, you know, instructional design is, as a field where you, you know, you really get a chance to explore that creativity and that creative side. Unfortunately, sometimes within an organization you work for, you may not be able to explore that as much as you would like. And so, I think it just - a lot of people were starting to get really demotivated about that, and they just were upset and kind of voicing their frustrations. And so I was kind of thinking as a person transitioning into this field, you know, I didn't want to fall into that same kind of trap, like, I didn't want to be disenchanted with the job. I didn't want to lose kind of my motivation behind doing what I do. And so that's why I kind of developed like, okay, being able to have your own style, even if you can't do every single thing you want to do. If I'm able to incorporate one or two things that, you know, are my personal touch, even if it's just as small as adding, like, this particular navigation button, like, I know, it's me, you know. I know, it's something that I thought through, and I feel like this will be better for the learner - I think that really motivates you to kind of keep going. So you know, and that's if you are in corporate, or even if you're a freelancer, you know, because that's the same thing. I have a lot of clients where you get that pushback, and you may not be able to do everything you want. But you know, what can you do to motivate yourself to kind of push forward? And I think just having your own style and knowing that, you know, this is something that I put together, this is something that, you know, I thought through that's going to help the employer, the client, or whoever, your target audience. I think that gives you that motivating factor. 

Heidi Kirby  7:20  
Absolutely. So other than motivation and being able to, kind of, take pride in your own work, why else would you say it's important to have a style or a philosophy to instructional design?

Veronica Reed  7:33  
I think is important, because it really forces you to explore deeply into instructional design because as you develop your style, there's a lot of different schools of thought out. So, you know, you have to determine what works best, you know, for your creative process, because I believe that we all have our own kind of creative process. I'm sure there's like a neurological or scientific term for it, but you know, each of us are different - we approach things differently, you know, we approach our creative processes a lot different. So, you know, you really have to delve into all the different, you know, learning theories and just different design theories now that are coming out and determine like, okay, you know, "how can I really put my stamp on it?" And not in a ego way, but you know, "how can I really bring my creativity to life and still, you know, conform to the organization and still help, you know, my target audience at the same time?"

Heidi Kirby  8:30  
Absolutely. And I always say that I'm not a pizza maker, right? And I think that that's part of, you know, that creativity is I'm not here to make a course, put it out the door, like, I'm going to put my own spin on it. I'm going to also make sure that it's meeting the needs and you know, doing all the proper process steps involved. But I like what you said about looking at the different schools of thought because I think sometimes - and I met people who do this - where someone falls into our field, and they swear up and down that they know everything there is to know about learning and development, instructional design. "I've been doing this for 10 years," but then when you start to have conversations with them, they name like one person that they studied right? Like, they have like that one big name, who's a big name, right? But they just like have read all of that one person's things. And so they have like a very narrow view of how things should be done and what approaches should be taken. And I think it's really important to continue to learn what the different approaches are that are coming out and that have been already established. And I think it's important to have kind of that multifaceted approach and then be able to, like you said, to add your own spin on it. 

Heidi Kirby  9:53  
Part of your presentation was three steps for kind of developing or deciding your style. And so I want to share those. But I also want to have you as the guest answer those different questions, right? So step one was "determine what attracted you to the field." So what attracted you to the field, Veronica? 

Veronica Reed  10:14  
Because I worked in human resources, as a generalist, a lot of what we were focused on was employee engagement, how do we keep people working here, kind of the full lifecycle of - we hired you, now we're trying to retain. And so you know, the employee experience, which is kind of a buzzword that's been - probably the last five years is kind of what you get on the HR side. So for me, talent development, you know, you kind of have that learning experience. And you can kind of bridge that with the employee experience because a lot of - during that employee lifecycle, especially the retention piece, when we're really teaching them about the organization, talent development and L&D is a really big part of that, because we are, you know, doing the training, we are, you know, helping out their professional development or whatever motivates an individual person. A lot of it, you know, we're going to touch that in some kind of way. So that's why I was attracted to talent development because you can really focus on kind of the fun stuff, like, really understanding what is it that the employee needs, you know, how can I create something that will help them out, you know, because we spend so much time at work, like we're at work 40 plus hours a week. So you know, you want to make sure people want to come to work. And so being able to create that approach,  whether it's a program or training in-person, or e-learning, you know, being able to do that. So that's what attracts me to talent development - it's just that bridging that employee experience and learning experience.

Heidi Kirby  11:40  
That's great. So, step number two is "determine why you stay in this field." So you've been in this field for how long now? 

Veronica Reed  11:48  
It's been about a year, a little over a year. 

Heidi Kirby  11:51  
Okay, so why are you still here?

Veronica Reed  11:53  
So I'm still here, just because you know, I was able to create a that good employee experience. And even when there's moments where you kind of get pushback, or even if you don't really like or something just doesn't work, I know that I am waking up every day, and I want to help the employee. That's my main thing. And this is for corporate because I work at corporate. Obviously, if you're a freelancer, it will be different. But that's my main motivation is okay, you're creating this material, you want employees to have the best experience at work, and how can you do that? So that's my why of getting up every day is keep creating, keep doing it, something will break through, you know, employees are going to be grateful for something that you create, you could help someone, you know, get over the hump or learning a skill that gets them from motive, you know? So that's kind of my thought process.

Heidi Kirby  12:50  
Yeah. Alright. And step three, is "determine the adult learning theory that resonates most with you."

Veronica Reed  12:59  
Okay, so the one that resonated the most with me, was the self determination theory. And that's mostly because it really focuses on giving you the choice. And I know, personally, as an adult, you know, I like to have a choice. And I like to know why I need to do something. And you know, that's just human nature. Like, don't throw something at me and like, "here, do it." Like, no, you know - why am I doing that? So that resonates the most with me is being able to create a learning experience that people understand why they are doing it, and if they still have a choice and how they want to consume the information, so yeah, so that's why they resonate the most with me, it's just because I feel like adults have choice and we want to know why. 

Heidi Kirby  13:47  
Why do I have to take this boring compliance training? Where every year every July when my behavior's been impeccable? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. You also had a bonus step, which was "craft your personal talent development philosophy." And in that you reference Nyla Spooner's  I'm New Here, Episode Eight, where she talks about the exact same thing. And I just went back and listened to that today. And her philosophy, her elevator pitch as she calls it, is like - I don't think I have one that's as polished in practice as hers. Do you have a personal talent development philosophy? 

Veronica Reed  14:35  
I don't have a good one yet. I'm still going back and forth. So because the elevator speech and pitch has always been difficult for me, personally, because I don't know. It's hard for me to just hype myself up, you know, and Nyla talked about that in her podcast where, you know, you kind of have to get over that block of - It's okay to talk about yourself. It's okay to you know, take pride in your work - you know, there's obviously a line where if you cross it, you could be a little arrogant or insufferable, but at the same time, it is okay to really recognize your achievements and go forward. So I'm still working on this. I've actually been like writing it out, but I'm still kind of pushing forward through, you know, it's okay, you know - getting past like the imposter syndrome and the hole - I don't want to talk about myself. I don't want to seem like I'm being arrogant or cocky. So -

Heidi Kirby  15:31  
Which is I think a great answer, because I mean, how many other people are in that boat, right? Like, you're not alone in that. And as many times as I've - as many job interviews, as I have, because I'm a chronic job hopper (laughs), you know, when I go through that elevator pitch, every time it's like, I practice it, and then I look at the clock, and I'm like, wait, okay, it's been five minutes,  and I'm like, talking out loud about something that has nothing to do with what I started with is so like, that's my problem. Is that like, what I try to like, when I try to make it so short, right? When you try to sum it up, in just a few words, it can be really hard to just get the important parts, right? 

Veronica Reed  16:16  
Yeah, definitely. 

Heidi Kirby  16:18  
But that said, if you had to describe your instructional design style in three words, what would they be? 

Veronica Reed  16:26  
I would say succinct. And I say that because I don't like long-winded things to explain something. And I mean, I can get on a tangent and talk all day, every day, but when I am consuming information, and that's - and I think that's just the world we live in. I'm so used to, like, Twitter is like 160 character, you know, like, even on Facebook, if I see a long, people will be like "long post alert," just to let people know, like, hey, you're gonna read. We're like, uh uh, you know, but you have to warn people, you're about share a lot of information, even on LinkedIn, you know, you still want to keep it, you know, no more than three or four sentences, if possible, because that's just how we consume information. So, you know, taking that into consideration, that's how learners are going to consume information. So definitely making it succinct, where people can pick up on what I'm talking about, quickly, you know, because we are busy - people are busy, they don't have time for that. I will also say innovative, just always finding ways to make it fun and just meet the needs of your organization because everybody's different. So I think you have to take that into consideration, especially depending on the industry you work in. I mean, if it's like healthcare or financial services - it's very compliance-heavy. There's only gonna be so much you can do to make it innovative, and, you know, make it where you can change it or whatever. And then I would also say agile. That's one area I've really been interested in - being able to make those pivots quickly. And being able to do those sprints. So I'm all about that. And I try to build that in any kind of training that I do, like, "Hey, you know, here's the iteration, look at it, let me know, what you like before I continue on." Like, just making sure we have like those short check-ins to make sure everybody's all on the same page and doing those sprints. So, yeah. 

Heidi Kirby  18:28  
I love it. I love it. And I like how you talk about kind of meeting the learner where they are, because that's something that is really important to me, with my background as an English professor, and then moving into instructional design. But I think what you say about being succinct is really important, because, you know, you see all these things about the internet is killing our memory and our brain. And - and I don't think that - I think it's just shifting the way we retain information. I don't need to know the laws of gravity because I could look them up if I should need them. I don't use them every day. But now, I have room in my short-term memory for stuff that I need to use every day, right? And so I think that that's a really important one. I really like that - that's a good answer. What impact do you think that developing or creating a style or a philosophy can have on your organization outside of just, you know, we talked about personally, how it can help you - what impact do you think it could have on your organization, if you're really firm and confident in your style or philosophy?

Veronica Reed  19:41  
I think the impact it can have is - it can help change how your organization maybe thinks of your department. I know a lot of people now - that's the struggle. They have, you know, their organization kind of treating L&D like the notetakers or they don't really have a true understanding of what they do and the value they bring. So I think standing firm by your style and not pushing it down their throat, because I mean, you can start small, and just showing like, hey, when I add in this element where, you know, we add a scenario in every client's training, you know, people resonate with it more. So, you know, it kind of pushes them to understand, like, here are some measurements that you can utilize. So it really helps in the evaluation process, I believe. And then you can really start implementing more and more things into your training and really kind of change their mindset. But it's a small process. And I think, you know, anybody that works in corporate, we know that change is slow. And steady process. Yeah, numbers talk, so being able to show, you know, like, hey, by me adding this style, you know, somebody is retaining it, whether it's five or 10 more people are retaining it, you know, that builds up over time. 

Heidi Kirby  20:56  
Yeah, absolutely. It can build the worth - the reputation of your department. And I think it's also good for those who are in kind of the job seeking phase too, because you already have that style and philosophy, and you're grounded in it, you're going to be able to better tell from a job interview, like, what's a fit, and what isn't. And, yeah, find the organization that better works for you, you know what I mean? 

Veronica Reed  21:22  
Yeah. And that's important, because even, you know, as I was going through, like, the job interview process, knowing kind of my main thing is, like I said, I want to connect employee experience, the learning experience, you know, and I do have some of the compensation background from being an HR generalist, so I was able to use that kind of skill set. And as you know, I'm explaining my journey, and why I got into the field, you know, I can bring those elements of, you know, being a generalist having a consultation, you know, it's just a different version of consultation now. And I know what questions I want to ask, like, I know what's important to me, like, do you have the creative freedom? What does that process look like? So now I'm able to ask those questions. And I think you're more willing, if it's not a good fit to say no, or really understand the consequences of taking the position or not, which I think is also very important. So for anybody going into the field or looking for a job, I think it's very important to know that about yourself and stand firm, because you know, it does make it easier, like, you know what, this is a good fit. And even I mean, this job, or this money would be great. I don't know if it's right for me, and I can hold out, I can wait, you know, let's see what else is out here. 

Heidi Kirby  22:35  
It makes me think of like, almost like dating, right? Where you have like your personal set of morals and values. And if you go on a date with somebody, and they're way off, and their morals and values are totally different, like, you're probably not going to go on a second date with them. So why would you go on a job interview, and totally compromise your style and your philosophy about your career, and work for a company for what 5-10 years? 

Veronica Reed  23:04  
It stifles your growth too, like, if you do that - a lot of times, you're not able to really grow, you know, professionally or personally in situations, and I've been there, you know, so I'm like, now I'm like, No - you know, I'm really trying to be intentional about knowing who I am - knowing how I want to design and making sure that that matches with the organization I'm working for. 

Heidi Kirby  23:26  
Same here. Yeah, the money can only get you so far, right?

Veronica Reed  23:29  
Absolutely. I always tell people, I was like, you know, having more money is great. But then you start spending more. So like, the salary bump that you get after like two or three months, it doesn't even feel like you have more money. You know, like, because you're spending it already. So it was like, and then what, you know, right? The money is spent in your mind. So it's like, it doesn't even feel like a salary increase. It's, you know, another check now. So then, you know, what else do you have to motivate you past that point? 

Heidi Kirby  23:58  
Right. Let's say that you've got your style, your philosophy, you've got your elevator pitch down, you've got a cool job that you really like, and you're really excited about the organization? How often should you kind of revisit that your your own style, your philosophy? 

Veronica Reed  24:18  
I think you should revisit it at least once a year. And not to do a full like revamp of it. I think just to kind of have that reflection piece. But I do you think one important thing for anyone in any career is to just have their self reflection of where you are, and a lot of times you do that through evaluation, like if you have like an annual evaluation at your job, but I think, besides that, you should do that personally. You know, and really see where you are as far as your career where you want to be - and so just looking over that style and just seeing - have I been implementing that? Have I really been able to utilize this within my organization? And so I think it's just important to say revisiting once a year and kind of have that moment of self reflection, and you know, your goals as far as what you want to do professionally? 

Heidi Kirby  25:06  
Yeah, absolutely. If you do like a New Year's thing, or like you said, a performance review time, or even the off schedule, you know, like I was laid off in March, that's a great time to take some time to reflect right?

Veronica Reed  25:24  
Because you have a lot of time on your hands, you know?

Heidi Kirby  25:32  
So my last question for you, is, if you had to choose one, book, or video or podcast or piece of media, for someone to consume, who doesn't yet have a style or philosophy and wants to develop one, what would it be? And why? 

Veronica Reed  25:55  
Okay, definitely Nyla Spooner's podcast, I'm New Here. That definitely kicked off the philosophy piece of it because, you know, I believe a philosophy is a little bit deeper, you know, just the general talent development style is, you know, general, this is kind of my statement, and the philosophy is a lot deeper because it's your personal belief about something. So definitely check out that podcast, I think, especially - specifically Episode Eight was very good. And one thing I like about Nyla is she is succinct, you know, which is important, and it's not long, it's a lot - it's a lot of information, but it's not overwhelming. It's not a lot, you know, maybe 10 to 15 minutes at best. So it's very quick information. So then, as far as like creating, one book I really liked is Instructional Story Design. And I happen to be very familiar with Rance Greene. I really enjoyed that book, because I am a dramatic person by heart. I love telling stories - I love to, you know, make stories super dramatic. So I love his approach and kind of how, you know, he broke down creating a story and really creating those characters and gave like a framework for that, you know, instead of - because a lot of times we just kind of throw a scenario out there, but it was really like a framework of like how to create a story - what's the purpose of it, you know, developing your characters, developing the conflict, so people will actually be invested. So as far as, like, training, adding that into my style, I definitely utilize Instructional Story Design.

Heidi Kirby  27:32  
Great. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me today! 

Veronica Reed  27:35  
Thank you for having me. I had fun! 

Heidi Kirby  27:40  
Thanks again for joining on the BLOC. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends, and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai