The Nation-State Bitcoin Adoption Race - Princ Filip (Prince Philip) of Serbia & Yugoslavia (THE Bitcoin Podcast)

we moved to Serbia and that's when I started to study more about Bitcoin and realizing well, this is actually amazing. Bitcoin is, it's the thing I've been looking for. It's that thing that that that that truth that I've been looking for. It's, it's, I've always had an innate feeling and then since I was young that things were not right in this world and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. We've always led different down different excuses and explanations but never to to the

source of it. Thankfully, thanks to the lens that Bitcoin has given me to understanding what Bitcoin is and then learning about monetary history about what money is, that provided me the lens to understand a lot about what's going on in this world. I couldn't look back. You know, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I'm here I am today. We are attempting to speed up hyperbic criminalization.

That's it in a nutshell. Hyperbic criminalization is happening whether you like it or not. All money will tend to one but we are just trying to make it facilitate it and make the experience make it as smooth and as quick as experience as possible. That's our mission. Greetings and salutations, my fellow pubs. My name is Walker and this is the Bitcoin podcast. The Bitcoin time chain is 875-026 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin.

Today's episode is Bitcoin talk where I talk with my guest about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up. And today that guest is Prince Philip, the hereditary prince of Serbia and Yugoslavia and the chief strategy officer of Jan 3. Philip is a fascinating and fantastic guy who I've had the pleasure of meeting in person several times and it was great to get him on the show and pick

his brain today. Our conversation ranged across quite a lot of topics from nation state Bitcoin adoption to monarchy versus democracy top down versus bottom up Bitcoin adoption, Bitcoin strategic reserve game theory, Bitcoin or world leaders big things coming in 2025 and a whole lot more. Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you are watching or

listening. But I personally recommend you listen on fountain.fm because not only can you send Bitcoin to your favorite podcasters to give value for value, but you can earn Bitcoin just for listening to podcasts. Check out Bitcoin podcast.net for episodes and additional resources. Head to the show notes to grab discount links for my sponsor Bitbox or go directly to bitbox.swiss slash Walker and use promo code Walker for 5% off. Send an email to hello at Bitcoin podcast.net

if you have feedback or if you're interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast. And if you find the show valuable, consider giving value back by giving it a zap on noster or a boost on fountain. I truly appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Prince Phillip. I'm not a live streaming pro like let's say BTC sessions or or Nico and some of those guys.

So I do it. I can. I also I need to get a like a Jamie like Joe Rogan has, you know, that's when you know you've made it as a podcasters when you can be like, hey, Jamie, can you set that up for me? Exactly. And I mean, listen to Peter McCormack, what's his guy called? He's going like, oh, yeah, can you do it? The thing is, just get some to use chat GPT is like, I love it. No, Danny, Danny, that's it. Danny, Danny. Yeah.

He's a he's an awesome dude. And I was super happy to see that he's re invigorating the what Bitcoin did brand just because like that. I mean, that show was the one that I still to this day I listened to the most in terms of Bitcoin podcasts. And, you know, I think everyone was a little bit bummed that it was kind of like, oh, it's going away. I get, you know, Peter's whole rationale for doing it happy that he's, you know, crushing with Mr. Obnoxious. But when I saw

Danny was coming back out with what Bitcoin did, I was like, oh, this is this is good. The world needs more. Yeah, I haven't listened to first episode. That was with Jeff Booth. I believe I just saw that recent. I think he had he had Jeff Booth. He had Checkmate. He had Rob Hamilton, maybe as well. Nice. So he's, you know, he's he's crushing it. I firmly believe, you know,

there's always like the meme like, oh, there's too many Bitcoin podcasts. I firmly believe we do not have enough Bitcoin podcasts until there are more Bitcoin podcasts than traditional finance podcasts. And there are a lot of those. So we've got a long way to go, in my opinion. What's the ratio? I have to check that one out. We can use chat. Where's your. Donnie. Yeah, yeah. Let's see how many, how many finance podcasts are there? Let's see.

I'm my own Danny. I'm my own Danny. Let's see what chat. GPT says on this. I'm actually kind of curious. All right. Right. Searching the web. It's challenging. Okay. Chat GPT is not even giving me a straight answer. You know what? Chat GPT, you're you're done. But you know, there's at least lists of top 100 finance only podcasts. And I mean, I have to imagine the number of total number of Bitcoin podcasts is maybe a couple hundred. Right. Across different languages and everything, sure. But

we've we've got a long way to go. With hard money podcasts, Bitcoin podcasts, Bitcoin only. Exactly. Exactly. Oh man, Philip, it is good to see you. I'm last. I'm trying to think last time we saw each other. It's been it. It's been a while now. It's last time we saw each other was El Salvador, maybe? No, no, no. We saw each other since then. I think it was El Salvador, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Man, time flies. That's that's wild. Are you are you going to El Salvador for the

sadly not I've been invited and it's a shame. Well, I've been invited to another event, not Bitcoin. It's a Serbian event in Vienna for the Svetosavskij ball. That's like the Saint-Sava ball in Vienna, which is like a massive ball of Serbian organized ball that's been happening for four, four, four. I don't know how many decades now, but it's one of the guests on the onus there. And it's right over the same place as El Salvador, sadly.

That's it's one where you're kind of, let's say, you need to attend. I have to attend, especially if you've been invited to it, then yeah. There will be more El Salvador. I mean, there's adopting next year and that will be, you know, I mean, and this year in El Salvador in January, it will be what's going to be around the 30th of January, whatever it is, who knows what the price of Bitcoin will be. But then adopting next year in November,

who knows what the price of Bitcoin will be there. But it's a, well, it might have crashed, might have crashed, so we might be picking up some cheap sats again, which I'm always hopeful of. It's ripping today. It's funny you reached that point and, you know, I haven't been in Bitcoin for that long. It's been since, you know, 2020, when I finally stopped ignoring Bitcoin and went down the rabbit hole and decided to, you know, become humble and realize that I didn't know

really anything about money. And even just since then, it's like the longer you get into it, first you're like, I love seeing the price go up. Then a little bit later, you're like, I love seeing the price go down. Like I want my dollars to buy me more sats. Like I don't want these sats to be so expensive. But Bitcoin doesn't care. It just keeps on chugging. Exactly. Man, well, you know, I was really, I'm glad we got the chance to do this today. I was just in your,

I think I mentioned this to you. I was just in Serbia actually as part of a larger business trip in Europe. So that was my first time in Serbia. I was back and forth between Belgrade and Novosad. I wish I would have gotten a chance to do more sightseeing, but it was pretty much all business, unfortunately. So I'll have to make it back for a more relaxed trip in the future, bring the family. Well, you've got to learn Apollo. Definitely welcome here. It's a big country. There's

a lot to visit here and come visit the palace. We just moved in a few months ago, and it's good. It's great out here. Obviously, we have some issues going on with politically out here, but we're not going to go into that. We'll talk about Bitcoin stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That works. I mean, yeah, political issues are, that's the one thing that I think every country in the world has in common, or citizens of every country. Because political issues really are derivatives of financial money issues.

And that's kind of a perfect lead-in to talking about the name of this show, the Bitcoin podcast, talking about Bitcoin as money. I think the first time I saw a clip of you, before we had met in person, was you were on a Serbian talk show, I believe. Right. The clip went pretty viral. I remember one of the parts that was funniest to me was that the host was basically, you were just going through this incredibly succinct summary of

Bitcoin money, everything. And the host is shocked that you're giving this advice away for free. You're just telling people this, and you're like, yeah, they need to know. Was that the first time you had mentioned Bitcoin in any sort of public setting? It was. It wasn't the first time I came out as a Bitcoiner. Now, I've talked about this before.

And it's the first time I came out publicly. Like you, I became a maximumist around 2020, but I first bought Bitcoin 2017, but at the same time was distracted by other stuff out there, as a lot of people experience the same thing. And then 2020, when the whole COVID mania happened, I thought I knew how the... I mean, I've said this to Spiel many times before, but I'll say it again. I mean, I was working in traditional finance, TradFi, as it's known in the Bitcoin world,

for over a decade. Well, actually close to 15 years at that point. And you know, that kind of thing, you know how it all works. But there's one thing a lot of people in TradFi don't really know is what is money. And that's one thing I would start to question in about 2020, when... I just didn't question it for 2008. I just thought corruption. I thought systemic corruption. I thought, yeah, this is just big cyclical bullshit and stuff. And then all this QE

came about, couldn't quite wrap my head around that. That was around 2008, 2009, 10. The Eurodebt crisis still was not really thinking about what is all this, you know, I'm just thinking, yeah, this is part of the way that we fix stuff, interventionism, interventionism is okay. I was still a bit into the whole Kenzian world and things like that. And then 2020, that's 2017, got introduced to Bitcoin bought. Realized that's okay. There's a supply cap of 21 million,

that scarcity, that's an inflation hedge. That's wonderful. That's great. So what does that actually mean? But then really dig into it until 2020, when the whole stimulus BS happened, it started happening again to a next level, where they were actually giving people checks and countries where normally they wouldn't really be giving people checks for very questionable circumstances. And I was thinking, where is all this money going to lead? And yeah, so let's see what's

happening today. So I started questioning Bitcoin then and then I started... the old saying, as I always say, I started reading things like Bitcoin Standard, Top 21 Lessons by Gigi, reading his hits incredible Twitter threads as well, going on to Bitcoin Twitter, meeting the... getting acquainted with the Maxis on Twitter and seeing them do their thing. Love and toxicity as well.

It's great. It was hilarious. And I started to get it bit by bit. And things made more sense. I think one of the things that really started me was a proper clicking moment was understanding low time preference and understanding the difficulty adjustment. I don't know why those two things, but just were really beautiful. The low time preference thing was just basically to do with because it links in nicely with monarchy. And it links in nicely with just the world that we know,

the instant gratification world that we live in. And the cure to that is something that is obviously of delayed gratification. And the difficulty adjustment, just the way that that worked out beautifully, when it was proven how beautiful it worked out, how beautifully it works in 2021 when China banned mining. And you just saw the biggest down with adjustment ever. And it just becoming more decentralized. Just thought that was just so cool. Anti-fragile

out is finest. Those two things for me, I think were also, it was reading the Bitcoin standard and seeing how safe explained low time preference was really like something shifted. It's the same thing when I read The Price of Tomorrow by Jeff Booth. And he said, those simple words, technology is deflationary. And something clicks. And once it clicks, it's like, nope, you can't forget that you learned that. You are changed now for the better, I think. Everything makes so much more sense.

But you then you also realize like, oh, wow, you start to realize, like with the technology being deflationary, you start to realize the true extent of the theft that this fiat system enacts on people. Because if you think, you know, just okay, if you just look at CPI inflation in the US, you think, oh, a couple percent a year, even during the worst part of COVID, yeah, it got a little bad for a second. But now, you know, it's come back down, right? And then you realize that,

no, it never comes back down. It compounds. And they're not just stealing from zero. They're stealing from a negative baseline. Everything should be getting cheaper. And it's not, why is that? And that for me was just like, whoa, like, I'm changed. You look at the compound, you look at the graph, you look at the just getting bigger and bigger. And then that's, and then you realize that's actually not a very good measure of CPI. CPI is not a good measure of inflation. Then you

started going down what Michael Saylor has to say. I know, I mean, some on most of most Bitcoin is out there have to say that I realized that actually the numbers behind inflation are not accurate. How do they calculate those baskets? You know, what, what's, how do they replace goods with new goods that have less inflation? You realize that it's all one big game. And we're all being

had. It's, it's as George Carlin said, you know, it's a big club and you ain't in it. And it's, yeah, well, as a role, as a role, I thought I would have been in it, but things happen. Things happen around the second round, the second world war, probably leading up to the second world war, actually, when my great grandfather was assassinated, I think, I think

some people maybe didn't want us to be part of the part of the club anymore. We were, yeah, we were representing something that was a bit greater than, than what was planned for post-second world war. But I don't want to, I don't want to speculate. I don't want to go into conspiracy theories over here, but there's, you know, why are we monikies taken out? Why all of a sudden were good book to read on this, actually, that will touch on this is

book that safety introduced to me. You know about it very well. It's the democracy that God that failed. And I know I've, I've, I brought this up in, in Nostra the other day, because I joined Nostra recently. I actually got my key in the beginning of 2023. It's not like Twitter, where it shows you how OG you are, but get asked Milan from, from primal to see if he can get those keys up. But I didn't actually get involved, start posting until, until like, what about two months

ago? But I saw this one post that Jack, former Twitter Jack, Jack Dorsey, Dorsey, yeah, he posted something like, he says, yeah, freedoms, not kingdoms. And I know he was probably referring to freedoms in terms of Nostra and not kingdoms like Twitter. And, but I just went in there and said, oh yeah, you know, I said something about to actually, actually, oh yeah, he's still in the democracy phase. Wait till you get to the

monarchy phase. And I just wanted to get discussion happening. And where was I coming from this was that book, the democracy that God that failed, the first chapter is fantastic and explaining what

low time preferences. And that led me to understand that why the monarchy's were taken down. I mean, taken down what was what happened post the creation of the Federal Reserve after the decision was made in on Jackall Island, then in 1913, creation of the Federal Reserve, then you had this full blown out war, which, which, which involved most European countries in very complex situations and relations.

To then post second First World War, you had some of these monarchy's being slowly wiped out to the point where the Second World War, then a lot of these monarchy's became neutered. I say neutered, they were they turned from away from being absolute monarchy's to to being constitutional parliamentary monarchy's and they were just rep, the monarch part of the government system was just a

representation. They had some powers to annex to go to a check on on on on the executive on on the that was in case something horrible goes on, but no one ever exercised that. All these this governance model was taken out completely and replaced with

Democrats to summon up as Hoppe says it is democratic republicism. And you just have to look at what and we're not why you just have to look at the facts pre First World War, it's post First World War and understand that under monarchy's there was a lot less taxation and under republics under democracies a lot more taxation. Why is that? But that's the low time preference aspect kicking

into into into the governance model of democracy of monarchy's I should say. Monarchy's are all about taking as little as possible today to leave as much as possible for your sons and your your generations to come. You want to be that family wants to hold that position for as long as possible so their incentive is tied to the stability of the country. So you will want to tax your citizens, have very strong private property rights so there's no revolt, there's no revolutions,

there's no uprising. And if you can keep your citizens cool and free and responsible, then you've got a little great thing going on. And on top of that, when that also was one of the reasons why it was probably messed with by all tier outside forces is a monarchy's hard to control.

Because a monarchy's cares about its citizens and citizens only yes it will have good foreign relations that's what a market does it has good foreign relations wants to limit amount of war, war, confrontation and so forth because those are costly especially under a hard money standard, but then come in a loose money standard and with a and then come in democracy and then all of a sudden incentives get reversed and outside influences are it's easier to be influenced by

the outside. And I guess look what we have today. I mean just get something up, go into deeper but no I mean I think this is something I've talked with safe about too when he came on because I

think it's really fascinating. I think in the US especially and this is just speaking from like personal experience we have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the idea of monarchy because you know this is the United States of America we you know we kicked the British crown out you know you know no we don't want any kings over here etc etc and it's very easy to have that knee jerk reaction

without thinking too much more deeply into it. But then as you said that the more I've started going down the you know the bitcoin rabbit hole it leads you into these other rabbit holes of realizing that okay first of all no system is perfect we know that democracy certainly isn't because it tends to descend into mob rule eventually on a longer time scale right like this is are you familiar with uh uh Polybius that he's the Greek philosopher he came up with the idea of

Anacyclosis. Anacyclosis yes. Yep yep so for anyone that's that's not familiar it's basically these these six stages that governments always go through it's you know monarchy starts out with you know like a monarchy rule by one they're typically benevolent and then a kingship turned into kind of a tyranny where there's some corruption of the monarchy that happens then we move to aristocracy which is kind of a good thing at first rule by the best or a select few but that descends into

oligarchy and you know their aristocracy is corrupted by a few you know people and then that moves into again democracy but then that often descends right back into mob rule after democracy is corrupted and so and then you know and I guess he's yet repeat the intent to fall down with autocracy autocracy is it at the end I think yeah but I remember someone posted that posted that in uh in the replies to my quote re-suite against uh Jack Dorsey and I said

Bitcoin fixes that well they didn't have Bitcoin that's the interesting thing that's interesting thing interesting thing is that they didn't have well even on the gold standard gold standard led to fiat so enough fiat led to Bitcoin because we had to fix it fix something we have to fix it and so I believe that's now given that the Bitcoin is it's because of its immutability and it's it's hard to control it it will it will lead to less opportunity for that to be

continuing to continue to start driven inequalities and therefore um um influence uh monetary influence by the top over the uh over the the other people who are I'm kind of get my words out here nicely but by those who are who who are who are who are at the bottom end of the of the of the of the monetary of the monetary pecking order and I guess that's that's kind of how these systems that you're talking about uh one one leads to the other

basically because really there's a breakdown there's a breakdown in in in financial incentives not incentives but financial the lip freedoms and then that leads just to the next stage was if you had Bitcoin from the start I think you won't have such strong you wouldn't have probably even have you will probably stay at the monarchy and aristocrats doccas stage of of the uh that's the interesting thing because it's it's all about incentives right and if uh we know that there

has never been a form of money that has not uh over a long enough time horizon basically been corrupted as you said even the gold standard great sounds good but that is what led to this fiat aberration um every fiat currency eventually fails I I'm of the opinion that just about every revolution is ultimately a monetary revolution under under the surface like you look at I mean if you want to look at or the fall of an empire is also the fall of a money if you look at Rome

the revolution the sense of like look at something like the french revolution and the the fiat inflation of the asinia this it's not like there's something to take the french revolution example it's not like it just happened out of a vacuum and all of a sudden people said you know ah we don't have food and look at these fat cats they have food and they're you know breaking our backs and let's chop all their heads off it's like no why did that happen why didn't

they have food well it's because they started inflating their currency and then they started imposing price controls and they started doing all the things that lead in only one direction and that's to an eventual collapse of the money right when the money collapses and people can't buy food they tend to not take that very well and they tend to ride in the streets and maybe you know sharpen their guillotines well and so I'm going to say something against the

french revolution because that's when we had the first instances of communism coming into this into us being introduced and I think that Louis 16 and my internet are getting a lot of bad rep bitcoin doesn't care if you're an individual a corporation or a nation state we all get the same rules and that means you an individual can be sovereign when you hold your own keys and the best way to do that is to go to bitbox.swiss slash walker and use promo code walker for five percent

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time setting up a hardware wallet and you're a little bit nervous or you are a well-seasoned psychopath again it's bitcoin only and fully open source you can head to their github and verify that for yourself no need to trust me or bitbox when you go to bitbox.swiss slash walker and use the promo code walker not only do you get five percent off a great piece of open source bitcoin only hardware but you also help support this podcast so thank you because that people claim I

mean the historians today let's call it the unread the own research historians actually don't realize actually they're not the what they weren't actually that that bad actually they Louis XVI in the first half of his reign was his first half of the reign was marked by attempts to reform the French government like abolishing serfdom and reducing incidences of the death penalty and like increasing tolerances of phenomenon Catholics and he tried to even end the state

monopoly on on on on on grains to make bread cheaper but this had its this resulted in the bread in the in the elite having problems with him and what happened was that there was a subsequent years there was a bad harvest which obviously drove at the price of grain up and which led to the price of bread prices went up there was food scarcity and that kind of just more in contributing more to the unpopularity of the monarchy which is driven by propaganda

by an outside by outside forces wanting to take down the monarchy and replace it was something you know communism work by by a group of people the jack the jackalbins who were basically the the far the far left group who led base who were the basing ones who I'm not sure who's uh you know people think that the one under the individual the person who's who's who's thank who should be thankful communism is uh marks angles but I think there's other people behind that but I'm not going

to go into that uh so so yeah even even that whole the whole the whole phrase that my internal my anti-noir supposedly uttered when she said her people are suffering you know let them eat cake that was never actually uttered by her at all if you do your research that was never uttered by her um yeah it's it's kind of that they they met a very horrible end because there was as you said it was driven by an elite group of individuals wanting to take over take down the monarchy so they could

be in control and they use the uneducated masses the the the mob to to do their biddings for them and this has happened but and in return they promised the mob the the people um the uneducated the uneducated uninformed let's say uneducated the uninformed public uh better conditions um this was this has been repeated many times in history uh it also happened with the russian revolution and the take down of the of the of of of sar nikolay the second the romanovs

by the bolsheviks um yeah so again driven by a change in in monetary incentives and a change in system which is communism and the reason I'm mentioning this is because this is also close to my heart because kind of we also experienced luckily we didn't experience such a uh a brutal end the caro georgievich is still alive now maybe not as many as we were in the past but we're still alive and um we're we're here and some of us uh one of us is a bitcoiner

philip can you can you actually talk a little bit for maybe for folks who are not familiar with you who are not uh students of history or maybe have been uh I don't know I think you've been you've been making the rounds pretty well so I would imagine people would have to be a little bit living under a rock to not at least know of you at this point I was living under rock until a couple of years ago as well so and also for the record I'm not I'm not a historian this is all stuff that

I'm reading I'm starting to be pointed in the right direction hopefully be pointed in the right direction what bitcoin does as we talked about before it's bitcoin I mentioned this now at bitcoin me and at the conference that it just came out of me and I think I've probably heard it a lot of bitcoiners hear stuff there and they just repeat it but it's down to really cool because it's true bitcoin is 16 years almost 16 years of unadulterated truth that no one has ever been able to manipulate

change um it's immutable it's completely it's it's a string of truth that's growing and growing and the more it grows the more it exposes the system the more it who was it that was talking about this a few couple years ago when I was getting orange pill they're talking about how bitcoin ostracizes people so people come into bitcoin wanting to change bitcoin but it ends up changing them and those with the egos who think they can hand change it maybe with a bit of money or so for

that f that fiat mindset realize that they can't so they end up getting ostracized so it kind of exposes people it acts like a truth serum bitcoin is like a truth serum and it just exposes the your not your weaknesses it exposes bad it exposes uh intentional bad um moral behaviors that are typical that typically rewarded by the fiat system anyway so going back going back to I am not a historian and my background is that I am um I guess yeah I'm a prince but I'm from a non-functioning monarchy

because our monarchy was abolished in the 1940s at the end of the second world war and it was replaced with communism um my father if there was a monarchy right now my father would be king his father so my grandfather was king peter the second the last king of Yugoslavia at the time that's why maybe in my twitter it says prince philip heredity prince philip of Serbia and Yugoslavia because technically our last title was Yugoslavia but if uh the monarchy was to be reinstated like

there would be no there's no such thing as Yugoslavia and it would be replaced it would be prince philip or be prince philip of Serbia officially um the history of my of my family goes back to the Karadjordjevic dynasty goes back to 1804 and that was the first Serbian uprising against the Ottoman Empire Serbia like many other bolting countries including countries like Romania where Carlos formed places like that Bulgaria Greece all these countries in in the area were

under Ottoman oppression for centuries um the Ottoman Empire was a huge empire that even lasted up until the 1920s I believe that was it's a last record I think anyway again not the historian but in 1804 um there was a gathering that happened near about not too far away from Belgrade there was a gathering of individuals of Serbian of officers and generals of the of the of the of the secret army that decided that enough was enough

and they wanted to they wanted to lead an they wanted to move for an for an uprising a strategic uprising against the Ottomans and there was a democratic vote between these these individuals that met in this is in the heart of Shumadia this is in near this is about yeah an hour and a half away from Belgrade they met and there was two there was three rounds of voting and on the third round the first the first person that was elected thought that maybe he was too uh he was too diplomatic

the second person was maybe he was too uh connected to that to the to the to the to the Ottoman so wouldn't mean a good move and the third person was Kara Georgia and they were like okay great he's great because he's ruthless and he's he's very strategic and he doesn't take any prisoners okay let's go with Kara Georgia Kara Georgia was like I don't know why I don't I don't get his uh his features but he was like six foot over two meter like two meters tall dark hair big brave character

and he led the the first the first uprising I should I should say against the Ottomans and he plowed through the Ottomans and liberated Serbia from Ottoman rule so if you look at a map around 1804 one of these progression maps you'll see that around 1804 then Serbia just pops into existence and this in the sea of Ottoman Empire you just see Serbia like right in the middle like a little island in the middle he was then assassinated after six or seven attempts he was finally taken down

by an axe a few several times and there was a subsequent second uprising in because obviously the Turks fought back the Turks the Ottomans fought back and then that was that was led by the Obranovich family the Miloš Obranovich who then they then set up those two recent dynasties of Serbia of Serbia then the Obranovich ruled for a certain period time the Karadrozovic ruled for a certain period time then the Obranovich and then the Obranovich were taken out basically I won't

not going to go into too much detail but the story goes that they weren't taken they weren't taking care of their soldiers very well so there was some inside uprising happening there so they were assassinated and then King Peter the first of King Peter the first Karadrozovic so my great great grandfather was coronated and became king 1902 I believe and he was tasked with the mission to try and take Serbia's influence Austro-Hungary had a lot of influence over Serbia to try and get

that influence away from that influence and do more trade with the east and the west with Russia and with the French and the Brits to try and become a little bit more independent and he did that and he was very successful he spent most of his life in exile or in exile running around with a secret name he was known as Peter Murkonic and he spoke he spoke Serbian with a French accent because he was brought up in France as well he was an incredible figure he then led after he was king

he helps Serbia become more independent more trade gain more wealth and he was actually quite a pioneer to say he was actually quite a progressive at the time he was a classical liberal he actually had the idea of reforming the monarchy a little bit so there is a little bit more I want to say a little bit more state but he understood that there's a need for some for a reduced state but obviously that state needed but it was still like an absolute monarchy in a sense but with

he had that book or essay on liberty by John Stuart Mills translated that was his vision he had that translated from English into Serbian you don't have the eloquence to talk about what his vision was exactly but he was very much about the individual he was very much about this sovereign individual like from a very from a very from from quite a early start but realized that you need to sort of progress a little bit with with the governance model and with with a monarchical

governance model and so move away from absolute monarchy to have something more in as more of the classical liberals idea that state should be there but as a service provider to its people kind of what's been turned out in the second rote in the state of this in the third millennium obviously that's a bit more advanced but that's that was his idea pink Peter the first was a very heroic character he led Serbia to reliberate Kosovo in the Balkan wars in the 1908 1910 1912

and then again he went to the front lines of the first world war by that point he was in the 70s and he was very tired and he basically just said okay I've had enough he beat he beat the austrian higuerans in the first world war he he did a lot and he then handed over administration duties to his son king alexandre uh crown prince alexander who was my great-grandfather and then pink Peter the second the first died nine 2021 I mean sorry 1921 and then king alexander came to

power he then took things to the next level and formed Yugoslavia first it was he formed the kingdom of slovenes of serbs are Croatian slovenes and Slovenia and then then it included Bosnia Montenegro and Macedonia and this was as a way to to to unify the Balkan countries as an act of strength to strengthen them against austrian-hungarian and other influences and it was very popular although there was some infighting and stuff he kept it together as a unified as a monarch does

very very as a unifying force people it was very prosperous we were living under a gold standard people were making wealth people were private property rights were very much respected asset people were creating a lot of assets it was actually a beacon of of of ideological hope to the rest of the world I look at Yugoslavia they've got they've got six nations and three or four religions all living very peacefully under under under one crown and he was then had he had to be taken out in 1934

he was taken out uh the first assassination ever caught on camera and his cousin became the recent king my grandfather was too young at the time then my grandfather was became of age in the late 30s it was for a second world war and that mess and then my father was born in exile 1945 and you know in London and then he married my mother who is a brazilian princess another story and and then that led to me yeah to to my older brother being born in 1980 in Chicago then my twin

brother died in 1982 in in Washington and then that led okay so then that led to 2002 after I became public about bitcoin and then my older brother in April 2020 in 2022 he abdicated in my favor so I'm now the next line after my father well first of all it's just a it's just an incredible story to have that much family history that you can look back on and not just uh you know not just any family either one that is quite uh centrally positioned to a lot of massive historical shifts

right I mean to to think that what always uh what I found just so amazing after meeting you and getting to chat with you and share some share some beers with you looking forward to the next time we can do that by the way but me too the fact that you know you have this you are uh you are a prince you come from literally this incredible legacy this incredible history and at this moment in time at this moment in history you have decided that bitcoin is the thing that you want to focus

on the thing that you can of because you could be doing any any number of things you know and you decided that bitcoin is the thing that that matters to you you're now operating as chief strategy officer of jen three you jen three has a it's it's name day coming up fairly soon here uh but I mean what was I guess maybe the question is why bitcoin of all the things that you could that you could focus on of all the things that could you know demand your attention and your time

why bitcoin per question truth I was um um when how to formulate this bought being born in ex in exile and never actually thinking there'll be a hope that we would return back to Yugoslavia when I was young that was still Yugoslavia seeing that because I was born after Tito died he died in 1980 and in the 80s and 90s you saw the subsequent destruction and disintegration of Yugoslavia these horrible battles that happened that were um only stoked by the west I would say um

sorry my phone's running out of battery sorry that that was the the ninth thing that you saw all horrible horrible wars and you see on the news you see all this destruction death and I wasn't very um I wasn't very it wasn't I wasn't proud to be a Serb I or Yugoslav at the time it was just that you was it was there was no hope you thought there was gonna be no hope this country is complete it's completely disintegrates it's it's it's I just didn't think I'll ever move back

there so I started building my as a from a young age my focus was just building my life in the united kingdom um living in London and but then one thing led to another I was working in finance I traveled the world uh then when I met my wife 2017 okay so 2021 I should now 2001 I should say that there was 2000 October 2000 is when Milosevic got ousted and he that allowed then an opportunity for my father and stepmother to move back to Belgrade and move

into the palace I I then moved back with them I stayed I stayed in London because at that at that point I was like 19 20 years old I was going to university in London I wanted my life outside of Serbia I still want to visit Serbia at that point I still want to go on holidays I want to see my father to spend time with him here and there but I was more mainly focused on and being outside of Serbia I just wasn't I didn't have that feeling of being a Serb yet then as I got

more experience that as I went through my education became more uh uh as I became older I guess not older was the word as I became no just as I grew up I started to think about Serbia more and more and I started to think about my roots more and more but it wasn't until I met my wife in 2006 wife to be 2016 and we married 2017 and had our son 2008 where something really woke up inside me and that also tied around the time when I discovered bitcoin in 2017 bought bitcoin

2017 I knew about it before but didn't actually push by in 2017 and when I married my wife and had our son there was a few things that it was happening were around with my family since I was a kid that I wasn't very um let's say there was a few things I needed to find out some truth finding fact finding missions and I got to work I was like okay I want to be back in Serbia at some point but I'm still working in London I still have my finance job in London it's paying me well it's

paying me for my life to bring up my my my my child and it pays for my wife to do that you know so and I have and things are okay here in London um but I at some point I've got to move back you know speaking to my wife about this then as I'm finding out stuff as I'm trying to figure out what we're going to do then the whole COVID um pandemic hit and that presented itself an opportunity that meant that we were all sent to go be work to work from home we'll we were all working online

and I was sitting on my desk next to my bed I remember that and then I was thinking like after a week or two of doing this I was like hey I could be doing this anywhere in the world that was around April March April 2020 that I go over into the bedroom I speak to I my wife is playing with our son who's about just turned two at the time I was like hey we're moving to Serbia when I mean as soon as possible okay so that's about the time when I started questioning the

uh what was going on finance in the world with the finance what we talked about earlier on about about the whole stimulus about QE about the the the COVID shenanigans and all that and that was like okay I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do this I'm gonna be doing what I'm doing now but in Serbia let's move to Serbia so we move to Serbia and that's when I started to study more about Bitcoin and realizing well this is actually amazing Bitcoin is it's the thing I've been looking

for it's that thing that that that that truth that I've been looking for it's it's I've always had an innate feeling and then but in since I was young that things were not right in this world and I couldn't quite put my finger on it um we always led different down different excuses and and explanations but never to to the source of it and thankfully thanks to the lens that Bitcoin has given me to understanding what Bitcoin is and then and learning of the uh learning about monetary

history about what money is that provided me the lens to understand a lot about what's going on in this world and I couldn't look back you know once you see it you can't unsee it and and I here I am today I love it and you know I'd love to talk a little bit too about uh what you're doing with Jan 3 because I think that that's uh first of all it's it's fascinating because the great thing about Bitcoin is that uh because this is an opt-in network because there's no CEO there's no marketing

team there's no nothing there's there's developers and there's users and there's all different levels of users from the individual to the corporation to the nation state right but Bitcoin doesn't care it it treats everyone the same and what you guys are doing with Jan 3 is I think really fascinating because it's you know uh while many approach Bitcoin adoption from a let's say a bottom up uh standpoint

there's this Jan 3 approach which is a little bit more of top down but I think with many of the same ideals in mind and that's kind of the beautiful thing can can you talk a little bit about the kind of like what is what is the mission of Jan 3 what is the goal of this organization what are you what do you guys hope to achieve we are attempting to speed up hyperbic criminalization that's it in a nutshell hyperbic criminalization is happening whether you like it or not all money will tend to

one but we are just trying to make it facilitate it and make the experience um make it as smooth and as quick as experience as possible that's our mission as you said Bitcoin is a bottom up strategy it's a grassroots strategy it is there's there's never been such a decentralized grassroots bottom up strategy like this that's ever been there's ever been um discovered and it's beautiful but as you also correctly said we are looking at some top-downs um strategies as well

and that is the niche that we found what Samson found when he was presenting um the Bitcoin bonds in El Salvador the volcano bonds and realized there's a niche here uh this is an opportunity to that we uh that we can able to whether we should be able to speak into nation states around the world and get them to understand what Bitcoin is as you said rightfully as well Bitcoin doesn't care about politicians Bitcoin doesn't care about anyone just Bitcoin just does Bitcoin but we have to teach

people that Bitcoin can really help help you it's Bitcoin is there to to to to to to make you financially sovereign to make you financially free um the more you understand that and the more the more you uh you look into it the more you study it the the clearer it becomes so we are objective at Jam 3 is to educate nation states so politicians be it from presidents prime ministers ministers to members of parliament about how Bitcoin can help them and their people and we try to figure out ways

plans of how what sort of adoption they can they can come to uh to agreement with and as you know Bitcoin has many forms of adoption from just mining it then to what's the big buzzword these days is is the strategic asset reserves so as a store of value to what El Salvador did three years ago which is a MOE medium of exchange obviously we want all three to happen but at the same time Bitcoin doesn't really care if any of those happens it's just going to happen but we're trying to

teach politicians that Bitcoin can be super useful and can help them achieve the goals that they want with their people um and this is also the thing that he's saying that Bitcoin doesn't have a marketing team uh well we are the marketing team not saying we jam three I'm saying all of us here all the all of us maxis whether whether we irritate people or not we are driving the message of what Bitcoin is

and that's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin it doesn't have money to pay marketing team you have to it's that's the beautiful incentive one of the incentives of Bitcoin is it quite often you know new um people who first get into Bitcoin they they they then they they first understand that they don't want they don't want to do anything else apart from shout about it and then you get to the point where like actually you know I can't I can't be both let them figure it

out um which is kind of the the the case for for for for a lot of us but we are passionate about Bitcoin and we're going to keep on talking about Bitcoin and we've just figured out ways to monetize that or incentivize that that drive to for people to understand Bitcoin and that's where Bitcoin has become very uh entrepreneurial and and and creative when it comes to uh how to how to how to bring Bitcoin to the next level so jam three um uses this opportunity to meet with

nation states as a way to market Bitcoin as a way to give it credibility because we live in a world where people are very trustworthy towards the state so if they see a president or prime minister or someone in in charge talking or being photographed or or or mentioning Bitcoin that's gonna that's gonna help with adoption that's gonna help with uh with this credibility and it's always even if we just get a picture with the president you're gonna get other people around maybe another president

in the country next door saying hey what are they doing what are they talking about so you're gonna get that game theory thing happening as well so it's just another way of marketing Bitcoin um to to get these these conversations happening but you know that's our top-down approach is just to get conversations happening education understanding how Bitcoin can bring wealth to your country by mining it because energy is money money is energy and how you can do that you can create these

finance these incredible uh financial um Bitcoin back financial products like uh Bitcoin bonds to to fund infrastructure projects just by extract just by using these surplus or wasted energy or renewable new new renewable energy sources from your country so you end up taxing your citizens less and further further developing your infrastructure it's beautiful right that's the things that we're trying to promote with jam three but there's also the other thing is that we also have our bottom

up tool as well and that is aqua aqua is aqua wallet is what's going to help drive the adoption for the next billion people because what we're talking about before is the top down now we're talking about bottom up aqua is trying we're trying to make it the user interface the user experience as easy as possible aqua came out jan three this year and it's organically grown grown to about 50k or maybe

even closer 60k downloads without any marketing at all spent on it the only marketing we've done is on twitter and other other social media platforms um we will soon have a budget for for for some other marketing but we will do on the ground gorilla style marketing we're gonna we're not sorry we're not going to sponsor podcasts that's all right i won't hold it against you thanks we're gonna get we're gonna get it we're gonna shove it in the hands of people and get their hands dirty

and and transfer some sats from one person to another and get them to understand bitcoin by by by seeing uh work in in the flesh um so i don't know if people are aware of aqua aqua uses uh aqua the in the the the face of aqua is like it splits bitcoin into two sections into the savings account which is bitcoin on the main chain and then your spending account which is then bitcoin on liquid which is also used for lightning transactions but there's another thing and this might upset a

lot of the maximums with us but there's usd there's another spending account section there which is usd t but that is also all held on on bitcoin liquid uh sidechain um reason why we use we are using usd t on the wallet is because usd t whether you like it or not is used more for transactionally in latin america than bitcoin is so a lot of people use usd t and don't really care about bitcoin so we're trying to make that experience for the usd t user easy but also have bitcoin on the same

only bitcoin on the same uh face so they see there the opportunities and transfer over onto bitcoin as a savings account so we have going from the top to the bottom savings account bitcoin main chain spending account bitcoin on liquid for lightning transactions as well and then usd spending's account and then we have great technology that will do the swaps from one to another using bolts and atomic swaps that will you able to then move from one to the other seamlessly

and that's just to start we'll also we'll also or have the optionality to buy bitcoin on it um and also sooner or later next year at some point to get debit cards bitcoin debit cards and have the whole marketplace for bitcoin and make it as easy as possible and that's where we get the fees from is from the swaps and also from other marketplace activities that will do um it's and we're trying to make it as easy as possible for the for the for the user to um uh to use as

our marketing sets on the when you open the bitcoin the aqua wallet sometimes it says uh a wallet your grandmother can use and of course okay when uh and it's because self custodial so it's your keys your coins and it's open source as well and for anyone who has not tried aqua i would really highly recommend it uh i have been using it uh since it was released and very much enjoy it it's a smooth smooth wallet experience it is and also as far as the usdt part goes i want to point

out that it's very important that you guys are doing usdt on liquid on so yeah not on tron not on ethereum you're doing it on liquid here's the brilliant thing like because um as you know usdt is works it has much bigger has a much bigger network and it was and it's functioning on on on shitcoin rails like erc20 and um and tron and things like that so you can actually from those shitcoin rails transfer to your aqua wallet but it's going to appear as bitcoin liquid so we're

siphoning away from the shitcoin trains and when it's on our chain it's when it's on your in our wallet in your wallet in in aqua wallet it comes out as bitcoin liquid and we're making that experience it's super easy you know you uh we're up right now it's open to tron on the rc20 but soon it's going to be open to the other the other usdt shitcoin rails like i think finance and salana polygon and yeah things things words i don't like to say but it's true um but the great thing is is

that bitcoin on i mean bitcoin usdt on bitcoin sidechain is the most efficient the cheapest and the best and on the other shitcoin rails they are now starting to have issues i'm not technical enough to discuss it but you can see that they're having fee issues um and operability issues i i will defer to someone else more technical to talk about that but we we are no we are seeing we're seeing we're seeing the opportunity now that that's uh i mean you've you've seen the you've seen

what's happening now that you've seen a lot of the shitcoin is now jumping onto bitcoin now they're going on to layer two as the new thing let's we're building on bitcoin you know i i've seen accounts out there like uh shitcoin accounts like from two three years ago like they would say yeah they're all about ethereum this and salana that and all this and that and then they realized that their their price shitcoin is is not really the uh the thing that was that was

holed up that was meant to be and then all of a sudden they have uh oh yeah we're building on bitcoin now yeah yeah but well it turns out we i'll go ahead no i'm just saying it doesn't change anything it doesn't change anything for us it just shows that you know that uh that it's all gonna go to one and so it's eventually you know we're just gonna make it easier that's the whole idea is that that why we have this this this product is we're gonna make it easier for people to

cite to to to transfer from whatever um uh usdt shitcoin rail onto usdt bitcoin and it's going to be protected by the the liquid federation which um because it was another great thing that's had with another great layer one of the only two or three layer two is actually work and and for those who have not tried uh liquid uh either uh usdt on liquid or or bitcoin on liquid i i would really recommend you check it out uh the liquid network has been operating as a federation for a number of

years very successfully and i know that there's often a knee jerk reaction uh with some of the stuff to say oh well that's you know uh usdt who needs it just use bitcoin and the reality is that a lot of people in the world not uh still wants that right and so why not give them which aqua does an opportunity to use usdt on the liquid network on a bitcoin sidechain versus i think most of liquid or excuse me most of usdt's volume is on a lot of it's on tron right like on the majority

of rsc 20 so yeah i i'd love it siphon that off pull it off bring the monetary energy over to bitcoin and give them a great user experience and again i would i would highly recommend yeah and if you if you want to pay in those other um chicory sidechains then it will it will easily do that for you but while you're holding it in the wallet everything is nice and clean bitcoin yeah and going on to liquid i'm not technical enough to to talk about this but liquid is also a great tool for

um for easing the transition from trad fly to bitcoin because you can do so many things on liquid that you that you can do in trad fly that you can't do anything anywhere else and that's going to help drive adoption and do it in a very in a in a very um undisruptive seamless hopefully undisruptive way the idea is not to have an abrupt like okay we have trad fly one day and then we have bitcoin the next day no no it's never going to be like that it's going to adoption happens in

peaks and troughs and and and and winds and losers here and there where we have layer two solutions like liquid that will help that transition in a smoother way where you can build those products that you can get on trad on trad fly but actually back it by bitcoin and you can do your bitcoin bonds on on on bitcoin liquid as well it's it's it's a great it's i mean it's a great layer two solution it just gives me so much hope having that liquid and lightning as

as a solutions to uh to not solutions as yeah that's solution sorry to how we how we how we how we how we grow for for for adoption purposes well it's it's super interesting looking at the nation state landscape right now and i think it's great that you guys you you just as gen three you have this kind of multi multi pronged approach of yes top down talking to the decision makers politicians leaders but also hey we're giving a bottom up solution aqua at the same time and then

with the kind of integration of the liquid network as well this is something i talked with serename presidential candidate maya parbu about you know she's looking at she's right yeah she's fantastic and i i truly hope that she is that she wins the election i have a lot of faith in her she's but this is what she wants to do right she wants to try and truly have the the separation of money in state but also to use these tools that we have available on bitcoin on liquid as well

to be able to provide just a better let's say a better user experience as a citizen for people which is an amazing thing and i'm i'm curious as you're looking at the the nation state landscape i guess what is the what is the state of nation state adoption right now how are you guys looking at it are are the conversations you're having taking a different tone now that bitcoin is really you know we're at over a hundred k point one million uh you know let's say that's 2024

started off with a bang with etfs being approved yeah and uh just for the record i'm not for etfs because that's not getting to bitcoin directly and etfs is it's it's highly um what's the word i'm looking for it's very much still tied to the to the traditional financial system but it's great for adoption and it's great for number go up and number go up is what that ultimately does drive adoption and people getting into bitcoin it caught me into bitcoin in the first place and i'm sure

many other people so you know people want to increase their their wealth and when you see numbers go up it's always a good thing and then we stick around for the monetary uh renaissance um so so the etfs did create a lot more conversations then which was i think was fantastic was when trump did a 180 on bitcoin at the beginning of summer and he at the at i don't know whether it was at the bitcoin conference or was it somewhere else but when he's uttered those words you know your right to self

custody that was huge uh a former president now president like saying that that is huge obviously that i mean i don't know whether he fully understands bitcoin or not but i'm presuming that his children baron eric i met eric the other day actually briefly nice guy get bitcoin i actually believe that they actually truly get bitcoins whether they're 100 max or not i'm not not too sure but they get bitcoin maybe that they're they're at the investor stage um i don't want i don't

want to expect for you or anything but yeah they get bitcoin they understand the importance but also if you tie it back to what it means for that for uh for for america and for elections is that it's a huge voter base now if you have about i think in america you know better you're you're you're in america right now there's about 18 million people who own bitcoin or some other shitcoin um i know of those

18 million people who own um bitcoin or some other shitcoin some of them probably have a lot of their wealth tied to it so they will vote with their with their wealth so it's a huge voter base and it's also a hard voter base to quantify because yeah mainly young people millenn millennials and generation acts or whatever they call them and the the little ones but uh they uh they are they will only want

people to they will only want candidates that are positive towards crypto and general shitcoins and and will mainly bitcoin will hopefully it will obviously hopefully they'll get to the point of actually which actually you know i can't take away too much from the horrible administration that was the biden administration um they did recognize bitcoin as a commodity and they did separate it from the rest which is great at one point so i give them some some some some some credence to that

but then they will suddenly Ethereum managed to get into that category but so then you realize yeah that's that's that's shady but okay it's it's it's just it's something that the fact that they they recognize bitcoin as a commodity and it's set a precedent for the rest of the world because whatever the SEC does many of the other financial regulators around the world will hopefully copy um just don't copy the ethereum part

uh um yeah so the conversations after that after trump started to talk talking about it and then soon as trump was elected we've had a lot more conversation a lot more interest we've already since that since then had a lot of conversations around the world many smaller countries and some maybe larger countries and i'm not going to do to any any announcements on that but maybe 2025 we could have some some some uh some good news may i without uh without

you obviously disclosing any specifics because i don't want to put you on the spot for that can you say in terms of uh i guess in terms of good news more broadly what does that look like for you guys does that look like uh strategic bitcoin reserves for certain countries does that look like mining operations you'll see you'll see you'll see an ever increase in mining operations and you'll see and you will definitely see strategic strategic um bitcoin reserves yeah

i think now there's a race happening right now as as we speak i mean it's and but when when it comes to medium of exchange that is that's a that's a tough one yeah but given given it's bitcoin is is is acting nowadays when people it sells better as as a as a as a store of value right now than it does as medium exchange even though bitcoin is whole thesis is peer-to-peer electronic cash system it seems that the store of value parts of it because of its scarcity is what it's bringing

a lot of people because that's where the number go up um that's where the numbers numbers go up um um is is driving adoption well i think too the the the scarcity i mean and not just scarcity it is absolute absolutely finite right there we don't there's nothing else like that i mean you could even say gold okay you know gold is gold is scarce there's a finite amount on earth but okay but then how far out do we go do we go to the nearest asteroid that is

chocked full of enough gold to make everyone a billionaire you know there's there's different levels to that scarcity of gold you know do we start extracting gold from the salt water in the ocean where it's present and is just requiring enough energy to be able to extract it okay so how's yeah it's it's scarce but not in the absolute way that bitcoin is and i think that this is where you see the game theory of right uh both individual but then you know for the purpose of this

conversation nation state adoption start to play out as you said there is a race i think that everyone has been very much put on notice right now i think also from a corporate perspective michael sailor has put everyone on notice for some years now he hasn't been hiding this this has been very public he's been saying this is what i'm doing this is how i'm doing it you should do it too and you see some other you know corporations picking up that mental some similar scientific mara

riot now a few others but at the nation state level i think there's at least from my perspective there seems to be a growing acknowledgement even hearing the way that somebody like putin is now talking about bitcoin saying who can stop bitcoin nobody there's an acknowledgement that this thing is here to stay and that this is a race right that this is there's some urgency here because the first mover el salvador you could argue was the the absolute first mover okay kingdom of butan as

well is you know mined a ton of bitcoin with excess hydropower but in terms of let's say g7 players the first mover will have a massive advantage correct is that what you're seeing too well that's what we what we'll see it's as we said bitcoin doesn't really care but in terms of driving if one of the g7 adopts it as a strategic asset reserve or as a medium of exchange properly then you will see others and or you will see price go up then you'll get samson's uh i'll make a candle

mega candle in action yeah he's he's he's waiting for it he's waiting for yeah now it's yeah yeah sorry um it's it's it's it's it's just it's just fascinating to see how quickly it's it's moving now with uh with this uh it with this cycle that when i first got into a properly last cycle i mean i first got into two cycles ago but when i first understanding what bitcoin was nest when nest went off shortly after when you saw the likes of el salvador adopting it and and michael sailor doing his uh

his his corporate adoption of bitcoin but then you're now that you have to wait now those two country a country and corporate and and and come sorry el salvador and and and micro strategy where i guess with the kidney pigs now we're now in the in the second cycle i think people probably waited to see how that would plan out and it's obviously working very well for those two countries i mean countries uh for that country and that uh that company so i think now you'll see you'll see

the next round of adoptions but having said that you're still going to get a lot of people that are going to be driving away from it and a lot of people still have bitcoin derangement syndrome and will always have it i think there's a very good article by jesse cro had he's been on sell his name his name croce oh croce croce yes jesse croce jesse or jesse mires uh his uh his pseudonym is croce croce that's it um never met the guy but great fan of what he's written and there's one

article i have to get the name but it's about why yuppies don't like bitcoin uh why the yuppie elite dismiss bitcoin you know yeah that's the one it's a great article i think it's one of the one of the best articles out there really i think it's definitely on on on a on a re to to to read list for many people getting into bitcoin because it really gives you understanding of why there's this managerial class out there that it drives them crazy and that's the issue that we have also when

now when we're doing big when we're trying to reach out to nation states we don't really we can't even i have as a member of royal family i have i have certain ability to open doors and that's great but even that you go reach out to someone and create a diplomatic channel with the country and say well you want to talk about bitcoin it's not going to get anywhere so even that those top-down conversations actually happen from bottom-up efforts they

usually happen from people on the ground bitcoin is on the ground who've identified a politician a leader or someone who might be interested in bitcoin and so they need help so they come to us and then we create a telegram group and that telegram group we have some conversations and next thing what happens is uh we end up maybe having a meeting with the president or the prime minister or the or whatever a government official or or individual and and that that also happened

from bitcoin is on the ground in that country that's what happened in the case with Maya in Suriname that she get led us to the introduction to the government there i didn't go but uh samson went and very interesting meetings that happened there and they were talking oh yeah maybe we'll do strategic reserve of one percent of our treasuries in there and then i think Maya then saw all this happening but the way the meetings were led and dealt with and says you know

i'm going to do this on my own this country is uh this country needs needs needs better leaders and she's up for the job she understands what's needed she knows what's what the people um what the people need and i don't think the people don't quite understand what they need yet but we're gonna we're helping get the message across with her so if anyone out there just helped to help Maya in her journey to try and educate the public and hopefully she might win a

position as a leader of a country so yeah i hope she does and you know that's that's the the really cool thing now is that i think that there's a new generation of leaders that are that are starting to to make themselves known Maya is one of them um and i mean book alia was the one of the first exactly yeah and i think it's going to take a couple of so it's going to as as it takes a couple of uh of bitcoin cycles it's going to take a couple of a couple of

our global election cycles and you know global elections happen every uh say democratic elections happens usually four to five years on average um as they realize price goes up and new candidates come in and they start to get educated and stuff and they realize that they need bitcoin on their platforms then they'll so that will ultimately drive adoption and you will earn you will see more candidates in the next five five to ten years you will see candidates putting bitcoin on

there on their platforms are some things that they're running for you'll get more mias hopefully and you'll get um and you will get yeah you you will get you will get you will get some uh more mias and hopefully you end up with more candidates out there what are your thoughts about Malay in argentina um do you think that he's because he's obviously uh i mean he's a an an austrian economist right he's a a libertarian he has spoken very favorably about bitcoin uh he's an intelligent guy

clearly do you think that argentina is going to be in a place to make any sort of moves from a strategic level they've already made moves on mining as well so they're now just they're actually with their national energy company um get the name of it we met with the the energy company one of where we were in Buenos Aires two years two years ago and they're they have a division that's mining bitcoin i think they've ramped up operations there which is which is encouraging

but then going back to milay milay yeah he is a Rothbardian um but he's a he's he's not quite focused on bitcoin yet because in argentina things a little uh shit coinery is very predominant in argentina and we saw this when we went there when i went there two years ago at la bitconf in Buenos Aires that was a great moment there was a very good moment there um because la bitconf even though the name suggests bitcoin was also about shitcoining as well and samson was invited

to speak there jimmy song was invited to speak there and vitalik was invited to speak there and this happened just after the ftx crash so this was november 2022 so that the organizers of the other conference decided to do a panel on the ftx crash and invited samson jimmy vitalik um the organizer himself and one or two other guys one regulations guy and someone else and that panel was the most entertaining panel i've ever i've ever i've ever witnessed um it turned into more of a

like bitcoin versus ethereum bitcoin v shitcoin session and i mean you can see the recording online but anyway going back to uh going back to argentina i think milay's approach is very free it's as a libertarian very free market let the market decide and stuff so i you know obviously he's not cracking down on he's not going to crack down he's going to allow bitcoin to happen it's going to allow but it's at the same time he's not going to i don't think he's there's any moves i see there

of him differentiating between bitcoin and the rest and we're trying to get meetings happening there to try and um we have some leads and stuff but it's a tough one to crack argentina is a different size it's a different it's it's a different it's an auto magnitude much bigger country than um then el savidore and it's given its history of financial disasters and it's structured they have a lot of shit to to sort out and that's why i think he's focusing mainly on

on government efficiency on doge on his on his on his uh department of government you know as as musk and then thingy are going to be doing but yeah on on cleaning i'm cleaning up and and loosening up uh the the size of the state apparatus there while he's doing that it's uh you know he promised that he would take down the central bank but he just can't take down the central bank like one day do you have a central bank next day you don't it doesn't work that way

um that's going to take time uh i think i've seen we've seen progress there we've seen inflation numbers are actually being reduced a lot but you know i still i still think he's very much still in his in his mission and we're still waiting to see what the results will have what we're going to be he's got a huge huge task at hand still has but there are some promising promising uh data start coming out of the country and hopefully he will do he will leave such a mark that he will

be reelected again and continue his good work yeah it's it's certainly that he has a a lot of irons in the fire in terms of cleaning up right but the system was already yeah the system was so rotten that people so many people site of what we're benefiting from the uh from from decades of of interventionism of socialism and stuff it's not easy to clean that up overnight i think he's the character to do it you know he's that fiery um crazy guy that has the ability just just to

make it happen to cut it and and to to to essentially to start cutting out those tumors but at the same time they're not they're not all um benign tuners and some of them are quite malignant and that takes time yeah i'm curious too you know we were talking about monarchy uh earlier democracy the state generally you guys are obviously focused on nation state adoption on on multiple levels but what do you think is the purpose of the state or maybe i should say what is the purpose of the

modern state what what is it actually supposed to do for the people that reside within its borders it's meant to attract people it's meant to be a service company towards the people a great book to read about this is the current head of the lichensstein royal family um his name is prince hands adam the second in the early 2000s he wrote this book the state in the third millennium and to sum it up it's basically the state should act as a service provider to this people attracting

people as opposed to repelling them and it's it's it's the vision that we will have so i would say that it can be used his his uh his model is also the model of many libertarians he's a libertarian he's an he's an Austrian i had the opportunity the the pleasure of meeting him last year at an Austrian Austrian economics conference that they organize every year in in in badus in lichensstein and he wasn't attending the conference but later we had drinks at the palace

and he was there because he's a bit he's a bit older he's in his late 70s but he's still like so socialize great guy you know loves loves it loves a bit of attention and loves a good chat and stuff and i also met with some of the other members of the royal family who organized that conference the other one's prince michael one of his cousins and prince philip as well who's another cousin and they they all they all own bitcoin i wouldn't say they're at the uh maxi stage they're at the

investment stage um investor stage i to say um but anyway going back to the government's model i think lichensstein is a great example i know it's a small country it's only got 40 50 000 people but they have a model that works because they're very wealthy as uh when you when you're looking at these uh kensin metrics gdp and all that sort of stuff they don't really paint the full picture but when you divide when you divide it um and look at it per capita you get a slightly better

picture and as a gdp per capita lichensstein is probably one of the wealthiest countries in the world and when you go there it's it's it's it you see it you see it every there's a lot of nice cars the place is absolutely spotless everything works and it's also a free country you can actually smoke in the restaurants as well it's brilliant it's you go then you go a few minutes down the road you're in uh you're in switzerland or or uh what's the other yeah i think switzerland

and the other i please my geography anyway i'm not gonna embarrass myself but then you'll say you can't smoke in the restaurant yeah lichensstein gets it it's a good it's a good model but um i would say that the other government's model that i like is uh in terms of democracy and i say it's one of the most efficient the only i say efficient the only democracy that fully properly works is that of switzerland um that is its decentralized canton system where uh each canton

has a local government and within the local government uh the the elected fish the elected mps are not career politicians and they actually have jobs they actually go for sessions uh every i don't know how many times a year and they're hardly paid for it but they're given a little incentive for it and their democracy is is much more direct um it's it's it's it's it's it's a it's a it's a model that's been doing been working for a few centuries and if you're looking at how

democracy is meant to work it works at that level at that scale when you're when you have less than let's say a hundred or two hundred thousand people democracy i don't think really works beyond that then you get to the point where you really have um huge possibility of having um uninformed majorities with an informed minority controlling the system which is the case in many republics and constitutional monarchies around the world um then switzerland has a federal

government and i'd say it's only downfall is that federal government has yearly elections i would say what would be a great model would be to have switzerland's switzerland's canton system with direct democracy but the federal level would be a monarchy so that's where you kind of get in in lichtenstein but at a much greater level a much higher much bigger level and the monarchy would be in charge of of foreign policy um defense and not just that but this has to only work under

a bitcoin standard and a proper hard money standard which is only bitcoin there's no other choice um that's you that this is the next stage of the democracy i would see is that that particular model um that the the monarch acts as the not just a placeholder but actually acts as the as the custodian to traditions to to customs to um to family values and to continuity and also as the foreign as someone who promotes foreign policy i mean foreign promotes who goes about foreign policy for for

his country and his incentives of his family being in place there for many to come is directly incentivize in the in the well-being of the country so i i so i would say that you know i have shot on democracy and i will continue to do that and i've got to be careful how i do i do this because people will take that uh negatively because i'm a lot of people in this world see democracy as freedom which is not the case um and i don't see what us going from democracies to absolute monarchy

i don't think that's ever going to work but if we're going to be realistic i think we can we can see uh democracies move to constitutional monarchies and then constitutional monarchies move to something with more direct democracies in place and then over time things become a bit more decentralized as the money becomes decentralized and then we'll move to uh something which i which i envisage is uh is is is small is is like a switzerland cantons and but all glued together with uh

depending on the region some bigger some smaller with uh with a monarchy or some or some aristocracy uh in charge you will maybe somewhere those have federal governments and you will have elections as well but uh their their main purpose of existence is to promote neutrality and continuity and stability over anything else really especially when the money is hard it's it's a fascinating thing to think about and to see where we may go in the next few years because

i think that one thing at least uh most people should agree on probably a lot may not but the state apparatus in democracies look at you know okay the united states is a is a constitutional republic right uh but you know it's uh with it's a constitutional democracy we our state apparatus has gotten so much bigger and bloated than our founding fathers i mean they would be you know they're rolling in their graves they will be a whole massive

yes yeah it's it's disgusting and how much waste that creates because the state is not in its modern sense in any way a productive institution it only exists based on theft and that theft takes multiple forms it takes the direct form of taxation and then it takes the indirect form of the silent tax of inflation perpetuated by the quote independent public private central bank uh full of you know that's just a cartel of private banks known as the federal

reserve this this clearly you know if it were if it were not for technology driving down the cost of everything i think the people would have ride it in the streets a long time ago but the fiat system has bought itself some extra time i believe and this fiat mode of governance because technology has basically hidden so much of that silent tax of inflation from the people but i think uh you know can only kick the can down the road for so long technology is there to enslave us but also

to set us free yeah and that's the the the not i want to say the irony the paradox of it that's it's take the the democratic republican model has allowed that plus money printer has allowed these election cycles to promise people things over time and that's how these these people remain in power and that incentive structure is what leads us to crazy clown world that we are today um but the same time you know technology has progressed over time and there are great things

being built out there and the internet obviously did a lot of great things and but it's also a great place for uh for the spread it's it's the information age but seems to be like uh the that a lot of people not getting the right information and now we're now we're seeing everything that we read and no i say we those who are starting to understand that uh that the media pre-internet was was very much a state apparatus or if it was run privately it would have it would

have some sort of interest then along came the internet internet disrupted that but still continued it and made it and then accelerated it and now we have things like Twitter who are freed but still not 100% then we have things like Nostra but um but the problem with Nostra is it's still very much in its infancy and there's still a bit of much of an echo chamber for uh for for Bitcoin maximums but it's the start of something great and i think it's beautiful as somewhere i can actually talk

my mind um more so i still gotta be careful but like on Twitter if i treat anything about Bitcoin you'll see a lot of angry people talk you know just polluting my uh my comments i don't turn my comments off i'm i'm not i'm not i'm not into censorship yeah um but uh yeah i'm just so i'm just it just where this ties back to is i think that's uh that's um that democracy is in uh that what we were talking about before is how the republic democ- democratic republicism has led us to uh

led us to a point today where we have re- you know we have improved that technology to the point where that technology can now be used against for or against us and now which some of us are realizing that that thanks to the creations like like Bitcoin that we can actually use that technology for great things and it's gonna change and it's changing us for for the better amen and philip i want to be conscious of your time here i didn't even realize we've run nine

okay so one thing i wanted to really ask you is for you know i know that your pitch let's say to to nation states is going to vary depending on what kind of country you're in are they you know are they very energy rich for example do they have a lot of stranded energy do they have other issues you know what level are you talking to that's going to change but i'm curious just more broadly like if there's a if there is some sort of a decision maker or maybe somebody who is an

aspiring decision maker in a country who is listening to this who's still kind of on the fence about bitcoin or doesn't necessarily see see the real value in this yet they're not deep down the rabbit hole what's what do you what do you say to that person what do you say to encourage them to say you know your your country needs this we all need this that's them that's the uh that's the i would say the the million dollar question that's the omega can that's the omega

kind of question yeah it's just a tough one that it depends as you said it depends on the individual really depends on the nation and the individual um i think that what helps is that people understand those uh look the ones who understand bitcoin the quickest are the ones who are who are suffering financially the most who have the most who have the worst capital controls over them who are living in the most tyranny who have the the worst financial system we're living

in the worst financial system so you know places like Nigeria um Lebanon Venezuela Argentina to some extent um those countries they get bitcoin much quicker some sadly they some of them go down the path of of shit-coining and stuff but that's i mean that's the way it is but you know i always refer back to articles that turn into book actually you know alex gladstein's uh check your financial privilege as a good way to to educate people people in the west and they say the west the

the developed world will be like yeah we don't need bitcoin everything works fine over here um yeah because you live in a very high trust society things the services do work you pay your taxes a lot of them and but at the same time that is that they are extracting a lot from you without realizing and you will one day will wish you got into bitcoin sooner because they are still extracting a lot of wealth from you and you are missing out on on on on on improving your situation

or improving your uh your your future wealth without without having a savings technology as bitcoin and we're now seeing this we're not now seeing this we've seen this now for for for several decades in the west in the in the liberal west because thanks to these liberal policies and i i say liberal because it obviously liberal can mean a lot of things but i say liberal in the in the in the new sense of the liberal uh which is slightly more tied to socialism

that this is creating has created um incentives and moves against family values and against um traditional values and religion and so forth and saying that these things are archaic and they're conservative they're too conservative they're extreme or so and so but these things were there you know religion and traditions were there for a reason um they were there to promote family values which is essential for a civilization and for people to create families for people to um

to protect their families not just morally and ethically but also uh with values um where am i going with this what i'm saying is that that these countries these developing countries developed countries the the the the liberal west are seeing birth rates are now way below their replacement numbers uh in their below i think the birth rates should be about 2.1 or 2.1 to replace the population and above to to to expand the population but now we're seeing

some many many these countries way below two in the ones and some countries even below one so economies are shrinking i mean i mean populations are shrinking and that also means that that's putting a strain on the current financial ponzi scheme of a fiat system which which means that we have more of an aging population so pension pension schemes are are going to be failing i'm going to be trying to extract as much as we can from the younger

generations and they already have it worse off because of the fiat system has meant that uh prices of everything has gone up and the um and thanks to to fiat the the financialization and and of of all of everything from property to cars and everything has become much i said cars i suppose but not about properties become much more expensive to then saving assets into in in younger people can't save in anything but they cannot with bitcoin but they didn't have the

opportunity to save something that would grow in value over time which gives them stability that gives them security and that is essentially what how civilizations are born how civilizations develop is through having strong private property rights and hard money having the ability to have strong private property rights so the state does not take much from you or nothing from you and having something that's indestructible and that will not be uh debased away by by uh

by the state so you have security into the future and when that gives you the opportunity to be comfortable with yourself so you can invest in yourself then you can invest in having a family and then you can invest in your community and that has ripple effects and that's how civilizations are born and where that comes strong a bit uh well i think you know that's this push against um traditions and and and family values is is is having huge mental effects uh on on the younger

generations and they're turning them to be quite nihilistic and they see no hope in the future and they don't want kids they don't have the money and or they just don't feel that they think family is is is is is not really worth it maybe there's there's climate change that's going to destroy the world the planet and we don't have in the future and all this sort of stuff and and that's the wrong way to go about it i think the family is going to save you from

that from all this family is the most important part of of of what's being human and yeah i think bitcoin helps protect all that incredibly well said and i i could not agree more and as somebody who's just uh carlin i had our first child you know our son he's almost a year old now 25th of december correct uh uh they're about uh yeah not yeah yeah not not quite there uh was on almost almost yeah i just saw them i remember seeing announcements on the 20th yeah yeah that was great yeah

but but this this this thing you're spot on like this is what gives you hope for the future and but in order to have that that hope for the future that your family can bring you need to actually want to have a family and feel that you can support that family into the future and i think if it if it weren't for bitcoin i myself would probably be much more nihilistic but as it is i am optimistic i am hopeful i'm excited about the future and i i i cannot wait

to see what the future has in store and what i can build in this future and what i other people can build uh on a bitcoin standard that you know it starts with the individual right moving to a bitcoin standard it does start to individuals it has to start with you starts individual and individual can only survive with this family and then they move the family then gets our we as bitcoiners will create that ripple effect you know if you want to say what's the best way to orange bill

someone needs to have children amen yeah that's it really it's just to start a family be the example yourself and then you know that's gonna have that's gonna set an example to other people and that's gonna have the uh the ripple effect that's gonna create a better civilization it starts from from us and i i think that that is a a perfect note to wrap up on uh philp thank you so much for your time here this has been a treat i look forward to doing it in person again soon where do you want

to send people i'll link your no-ster i'll link your x i'll link gen three as well for anybody who wants to to reach out or see what you guys are doing anywhere else you want to do that you you've got all those other ones yeah so gen three x and a no-ster as well and again i'd really recommend people check out aqua it's it's a great wallet i've been loving using it and and i love that you guys are building out this top down and bottom up approach at the same time i think it's

huge thank you now thank you walker we've hopefully got big announcements for next year i i look forward to it now now the wheels are already turning but thank you again philp this has been this has been a treat and thanks to everyone who had joined in on the live stream on no-ster as well well we'll talk again soon i hope i will look forward to walker it's been a pleasure and that's a wrap on this bitcoin talk episode of the bitcoin podcast you are a bitcoin only

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