Technological Sovereignty & Daylight Computer: Anjan & Tristan (Bitcoin Talk on THE Bitcoin Podcast)

You're running a sham if you're not taking care of the foundations and trying to do all sorts of fancy stuff on top of it. So really, daylight is trying to work backwards from how humans work. It's trying to work backwards from physiology, from psychology and reinvent. OK, what would a computer screen look like now that we know how dangerous the light is, now we know how important circadian rhythms is, so we can own our health.

Because right now, they're making us own the externality of the bad sleep, of the diabetes, of the messed up metabolism, of the messed up dopamine systems. Right, they're making us own the externality of the addiction, of the distraction. But if we flip it, start with something smaller, humbler, but solid. Right, and you can argue that's what Bitcoin is. It is humbler, it doesn't have all the sophistication of existing financial stuff, but the core is solid.

And from there, you can rebuild a new world. And that's what we're trying to say. How would you rebuild computers if you started today with our values? Today, my guests are Anjan and Tristan of Daylight Computer. This was a really fascinating and honestly eye-opening discussion, and I know you're going to love it. We talked about their journey and the creation of the daylight computer, as well as the tech behind it. But we also get deep into the physical and mental health effects of technology.

What these devices that we're all attached to at all times are doing to us and our children. How we take the power back from technology so it's a tool that betters our lives instead of making them worse. Technological sovereignty and a whole lot more. Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you're listening, and maybe give this show a five-star rating if you're enjoying it. Or don't, Bitcoin does not care, but I sure would appreciate it.

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I was trying to figure out where to start with this, and I kind of like to start out generally with just a question, and maybe I can pose it to both of you guys, take it whichever way you want. But before we kind of get into Daylight, I'd like to know kind of a little bit more about you guys and how you got here. So the question, and maybe Anjan, if you want to dive in first with it, just who are you? How did you get here today? I know. Thanks for having a song walk. Yeah, no problem.

Simple question. Yeah, just not at all loaded with all sorts of potential there. I think the best way to understand me is, I'm like the son of a rebel psychiatrist, and he was like a communist. Like there's literally an India, there's something called Noxolites, Noxols. They were like, you go into the villages and you train as a communist. Like they teach you how to shoot, they teach you how to like crawl under barbed wire. And he did that for a little bit of time.

And he realized how insane it was, and he went the opposite. And then, you know, what we had in our house was like Rothbard and Mises and stuff like that. And he became like full on libertarian. And I think that experience, plus being a psychiatrist is what shapes me. He's an idealist, but then when you get to see what a lot of things that are meant to be idealistic are in practice, you're like, whoa, this actually isn't, you know?

And that's where the, I don't think he's like a hardcore libertarian, but I think it's the sense of like always seek truth rather than fall for an ideology. And in many ways, it's like having no ideology and just per seps, principles is like the real way to be. And being a psychiatrist, you know, people before they walk into your office, they're a hedge fund manager, and they walk into your office and they're insane. Right? Like it's a normal mom and she comes in and you're like, oh my god.

And so you start to not look at reality on the surface because all these people who seemingly are normal and waiting in the line before you and Chick-fil-A, they're all batshit crazy. And so it really at some deep level, you stop trusting that reality is what it appears to be. You're always like, okay, what's the truth? And I think just we grew, I grew up in a house covered in books from biology to the stock market to Ron Paul stuff about the Federal Reserve to whatever it may be.

It's like, okay, this is what reality says it is. Like, but what's the actual truth? Like what's underneath? I think even what daylight is, is just asking the question. Okay, like this is what people say computers are and they have to affect us in this way and they have to be this way. And we have to have this rent seeking. Okay, but what's the actual reality? Like what's the actual truth?

So I think what I am is somebody who's constantly trying to call bullshit on the adults, trying to constantly ask questions about why things are the way they are and try to find out what the deeper truths are. Whether that's health, whether that's technology, whether that's sovereignty, whether that's social coordination technologies we use, money, etc. I think I'm just kind of like that fly like, like, I saw crudies the nap that is just like stinging.

Maybe I didn't answer your question directly. No, you, you answered it perfectly. And the nature of that question is I just, I want to see what people come up with. And so thank you for that because that's a, that does tell me a little bit more about you. And Tristan, I'd love to hear from you. Yeah, I mean, for me, basically hit my head once too many times at the end of my college, college career and had, you know, had concussions and my health just went out of control.

I couldn't do anything, couldn't play sports, barely could go to school, can exercise. And I had that taken away from me and I realized that this is the worst feeling in the world. I was not any longer in the driver's seat of my own life. I was super limited. And then that really led me to have a strong distrust in the centralized healthcare system because I got no answers.

So I went down the self healing rabbit hole simultaneously was kind of learning more and more about Bitcoin and crypto at the time, which I learned the hard way. But basically, you know, through my own self education, self empowerment, I learned that there is this whole, you know, space available to learn about how to better your health. And none of this was in the centralized recommendations from the governing bodies. And a lot of it was accessible. It was free.

It was just lifestyle interventions, whether that's through diet or getting outside, sleeping on time. And, you know, I became obsessed and I wanted to learn more. And I realized simultaneously that I was into Bitcoin and 2020 happened and that cemented like maxi status with the, you know, macro economic environment. And I was like, teeter tottering between my passions of Bitcoin and health. And I was like, why am I passionate about these things so, you know, deeply?

And it was for the same reason. It was because if you're in control of your health, you're in control of your money, you know, you're really in the driver's seat of your life. You can be outside the centralized systems that are plaguing society and you have that individual sovereignty and no one can really take that away from you.

So that's kind of the mantra I've been living by and trying to get, you know, more Bitcoiners taking control of their health and more folks in the health space, educated about Bitcoin. Kind of been my mission for a few years. And then as an electrical engineer, really fascinated with the electromagnetic aspects of our health and biology, which is light, EMS. And this is also how we understand that nature is good for us because every time I spend, you know, more cumulative time outside in nature,

I realized I felt better. My symptoms became less and less. And, you know, I was doing all the interventions, you know, healthier clothes, food, you know, mitigating toxins. And I realized there is just one big one left. And it was our devices. It was our technology. And the more I try to build a personal brand on social media, the more I realized it's actually starting to reverse some of the progress that I had been making.

And I knew it was possible from an engineering perspective to create healthier technology because I worked in that industry. But I never thought it would happen for another five, 10, 15 years, maybe some, you know, rich Bitcoiners would fund this eventually because they need a hardware vehicle. And then I met Anjan and I was like, all right, I'm in, like, I'm working for you. I'm working for daylight. This is the most incredible mission.

And I'm going to make sure every Bitcoin or every, you know, person in the hell space knows about this and it embraces us. And it's ultimately coming back to the most decentralized system, which is nature and understanding that that's the one source of truth that we can all rely on. So, yeah, this is so fun. It's been a while in a couple of months talking to folks like yourself and appreciate you having us on.

Well, I appreciate you guys coming on and I love the common thread of truth between both of you and seeking it. I think that's something you find in most real Bitcoiners you talk to. And I think it, you know, truth about your health and about nature is something that seems to almost be this natural byproduct of seeking the truth about money.

Because it's like, once you realize like, oh, the money's fake. This is, this is all a lie. Everything we've been told, like this base layer of everything is fake. Well, what else have they been lying about? And then I think that's why there's so many rabbit holes that branch off from Bitcoin. And that's, you know, a beautiful thing is it creates these like incredible little diverse sub genres of Bitcoin or within this space.

And I love it. And when I saw what you guys were doing, it was like, oh, I mean, this is cool because your whole thing is like, this is something that's made to be used outside. And so maybe before, before I start seeing its praises too much, can you guys, maybe we go back a little bit more and we just say, what, what is daylight? What is the daylight computer? And kind of, can you maybe talk about that journey a little bit of actually deciding that this was something that the world needed?

Right. I think the one line way to describe it is daylight is an attempt at making a healthier, distraction free, minimalist, sovereign computer. And the other way of describing it is it's really just asking the question, if you were to reinvent a computer today, the display, the electronics, the mechanical, the software, the networking stack, all of it. Given the values that I have that Tristan shares that you share, how would things look different?

And you could say the daylight is just like the first 1% of answering that question. And like our core core core innovation is we invented a new computer display technology with the key aspect is that it doesn't produce blue light. And it can be used outside of the sun. And it can be used at nighttime with an amber zero flicker backlight. And like, why? Why did we do this? It goes again, right now in technology, it's built with the value of sex appeal.

It's like as many colors as many like pixels as like beautiful as possible. And I can show that off in a spec. So ultimately, it's like working backwards from a cynicism about how people make buying decisions. I think Tristan can wax even more poetic about it than I can. But what why did we make a black and white, blue light free computer screen and build everything around it? Is it goes back to like priorities? Like, who cares about the sex appeal of those things?

Like, it's your foundation and your foundation is your like physical sovereignty, which is health, your mental sovereignty, which is like focus and then your actual sovereignty. Right. And so I don't care that you lose color. I don't care that if it has less pixels or less fancy specs, you're running a sham if you're not taking care of the foundations and trying to do all sorts of fancy stuff on top of it.

So really, daylight trying to work backwards from how humans work, trying to work backwards from physiology from psychology and reinvent. Okay, what would a computer screen look like now that we know how dangerous the light is now we know how important circadian rhythms is so we can own our health. Because right now, they're making us own the externality of the bad sleep of the diabetes of the mess that metabolism of the messed up dopamine systems.

Right. They're making us own the externality of the addiction of the distraction. What if we flip it, start with something smaller, humbler, but solid. Right. And you get argued that's what Bitcoin is. It is humbler. It doesn't have all the sophistication and existing fiascia stuff, but the core is solid. And from there, you can rebuild a new world. And that's what we're trying to say. How would you rebuild computers if you started today with our values?

I love that. And I, you know, Tristan, I'd love because I know obviously health, as you said, has become a huge, huge focus for you as it should be for like literally everyone because it's like we get one of these bodies and a limited amount of time on this beautiful earth. None of us knows just how scarce our time is when, you know, when we're born, but we know it's going to end at some point.

And it's so sad that so many people, I would say the vast majority of people just disrespect this one body that they have. And sometimes it's not their fault because they don't even know what they're doing to it. And I think that's what you were getting at, Anjan. But maybe Tristan, can you talk a little bit just about like the actual health reasons for not wanting to bombard yourself with blue light, the importance of, you know, sunlight and like why this actually matters.

I feel like sun has also become this weird bogeyman where it's like, well, make sure you slather up the SPF 100 every time you go out and stay in the shade and, you know, and maybe just work under fluorescent lights all day long. And that'll make you a good little worker bee, you know.

Yeah, it's definitely become a mainstream narrative and it's exciting to see the bit coiners actually kind of combating that Steven, Steven Lubcass sent me a manifesto he wrote today or the other day for swan on sunshine maximalism. And that's why I like to call it because it's really, you know, a testament to the ultimate source.

As an engineer, I think about everything as input signals really quite simply. And the input signals that our biology, our bodies are designed to take are the ones that have been around for hundreds of thousands of years for humanity and millions of years for all of biology on this planet. And that is the sun that is, you know, the natural magnetic electric fields of the earth that is the food that naturally grows or lives on this planet.

Whole foods, you know, plants or, you know, one ingredient sourced foods, animals, and I think the Bitcoin space has embraced the diet side quite a bit with the carnivore movement and disrespecting seed oils and it's great to see that.

I urge you to continue down your learning path of sovereignty from the health perspective because it's way more than just diet. And yeah, we might eat two to three times a day and drink water, which is another important input to our body so having high quality water that's, you know, not full of fluoride and birth control is important.

But maybe you're drinking 1015 glasses of water a day, you're consuming light as an input signal, whether that's visible or non visible light, all the time 24 seven, 365 days a year.

And you could argue this is, you know, the highest level the first signal the most important signal to our biology, and everything is downstream from that, because light is how our body tells time. And if you think of any system or any scenario right like if we wanted to do this podcast and, you know, actually three of us did show up at

different times here but if we wanted to do a podcast or meet in person for dinner or something. And the times we said, you know, we're completely different for each person and if they were an hour or two different than we would never meet it would be chaos we would never be able to meet. And that's kind of what's happening in our body that synchronicity is then off what our body clock is off. And that causes chaos right like in any system when communication and timing is off.

It causes chaos and biological chaos is or can also be known as inflammation. And that's really a root cause a simple simple way of saying that this is potentially a major cause of all chronic health conditions and there's you know now research that is saying that and it's

it's really just a simple thing if we have the right input signals to our bodies, we will have the right output signals which are energy libido, the ability to detoxify, and the ability to be resilient. And for me health is the ability to do that naturally without exogenous stimulants or you know crutches. It's really getting to the root cause of why we aren't optimal. And it's challenging in a modern toxic world so the light piece is really important to grasp.

And we get into what are the distorted input signals that we are giving our body and since the invention of the light bulb in the late 1870s and Tesla lit up the Chicago World Fair, we've and also the advent of electricity which is powering this right.

So you could argue that the electricity the electrical grid, its main job at first of course was to power lights. And that combination of lighting up the world has led to this downward spiral spiral of the input signals we're giving our body so today, we have artificially lit environments with LEDs and fluorescence that have very different spectrums brightness and highly flickered outputs, which is completely alien to our biology. And because of that, our body is now confused.

We're staying up all night with this bright blue light. So our body is not sure if it's 10pm, or maybe it's 9am. And then we have this dull light throughout the middle of the day, which is when we're supposed to really be outside and you can tell the difference, right if you're indoors

and you walk outside you're like, oh my God, it's so bright out. And that's the input signal we should be getting is that outdoor, really bright light, and that's the blue light. We demonize blue light, but it's part of the sun.

However, when the sun goes down, we're staring at our phone screens at 10, 11pm. There's no blue light in nature that's completely artificial. And it's giving our body a highly confusing signal. And then it's jacking up our cortisol or stress hormone and suppressing our sleep hormone, melatonin.

So we can't sleep. Well, maybe you fall asleep, maybe you take melatonin, maybe you drink, maybe you smoke weed, or maybe you do other things to help you fall asleep. But you're not getting that deep restorative sleep.

And that's really where you're getting that cell repair and restoration from all the shit you're exposed to during the day, all the toxins. And that's why people are like, oh, you know, my grandpa smoked cigarettes and drank whiskey and lived 110, maybe not 110, let's say 95 to be more realistic.

And they got away with it because they probably woke up with the sunrise, worked outside, you know, at the turn of the 20th century, you know, a good percentage of our country was in agriculture. They're farmers, they're working outside, you know, labor jobs.

And they didn't go to bed far after the sunset. And they had incandescent lights or candles, which incandescent lights are far better than LEDs and fluorescence in terms of their spectrum. That's another funny coincidence as to why they're banned because they're, you know, energy inefficient.

But that's because they have this red and infrared component to it. So you can't get away with that anymore. And now we're handing our children iPads and phones when they're two, three, four, five years old. And we're really just having a giant science experiment. And there is plenty of data showing harmful effects of a disrupted circadian rhythm of artificial light at night.

And even of electromagnetic fields, such as radio frequencies and power frequencies from the grid. And it's really simple, you know, all we have to do is return to a life that is more aligned with nature, more in line with our biology. And the past 150 years, and then especially the past 20 years, we've been on this exponential departure from the natural input signals. And the main detriment of modern technology keeps us indoors.

90% of our time is spent indoors. And that is giving us a completely distorted input. And that is why our output signals or energy or libido or ability to fight conditions, fight diseases is at an all time low. And the signal to noise ratio is also at an all time low. So that's a bit of a rant, but I think it's important to cover that. And the best part about getting outside, getting sunlight is that it's free.

So you started this with saying, you know, demonization of sun, you know, lather up in your sunscreen, don't go outside for long, it causes skin cancer. You know, did any of these things exist more than 150 years ago or even 100 years ago in high prevalence?

No, they did not. And most people worked outside, they lived outside. But it's free and accessible to anyone. Cause $0 to go outside, it costs $0 to get your feet on the ground and connect with the earth. But guess what's propping up our fiat monetary system? Healthcare, sick people, and all of the medications and dollars that are coming with that.

Well, I appreciate the rant because as I told you, this is a safe space for rents anytime. And I think that that's such an important point that you brought up the end like again, this comes back to base layer stuff, right? The stuff that is really, really good for you. Walking, preferably outside, getting sunlight, fresh air, drinking water. Like these are all extremely low, low or no cost activities.

You know, maybe a little bit of money to make sure you're getting your hands on some halfway decent water depending on where you live. Sure. But for the most part, these are very cost a lot less than your fancy gym membership, you know. And it's great for you and it makes you feel good. I think one of the greatest pleasures in life is being bare-chested in the sunshine. Like I just, I should start honestly recording this podcast outside.

I feel like a bit of a lark for not doing it, you know, need to figure out the setup a little bit, but I'll see what I can do. So I want to get, there's a couple of pieces there I really, I want to get into. And one of them is the kind of the children piece and the effects this is actually having because like, you know, folks that are like the boomers, yeah, they're having some ill effects from this.

But like they've, they've already lived for 60 some years, like, sure, they can still have a really nice rest of their life. But like what concerns me is our kids and especially as a new father with a young son, trying to figure these things out.

But before we kind of dive into that a little bit, Anjan, I'd love it if you could talk a little bit just about like the technology itself from a stand so that people kind of understand like why this is actually different, like why this isn't just another because people have seen like the

you know, a lot of people have had Kindles or like the more remarkable, remarkable things like that. Right. Can you talk about you guys actually made something different? You didn't reuse something old, you made something new. So can you talk about that a little bit so people understand like what we're actually dealing with here and what kind of that shift means.

Yeah. So there's two types of computer screens. There is in message or transmissive. Think of it as it's a flashlight. And then you have solo at some time. That's what your iPhone is. That's what your iPad is. That's what your TV is. There's a flashlight. And then it moves the solo at that's what you get images. That's how almost all computer screens are.

Most people don't realize there is actually a second category that in the beginning was thought to be a potentially just as pervasive and competitive category but you know, it's niche. And those are reflective screens. And the key property of a reflective screen is versus having a flashlight behind that then shines through a reflective screen bounces the light that hits it. So this is like this piece of paper. It's not emitting light. It doesn't have a flashlight. It doesn't produce light.

It's just bouncing whatever sunlight is coming through the window. It's hitting this and going into my mind. And so most objects in nature are reflective other than a fire or you know, snow layer or a firefly. Those are emissive but almost everything else is just reflecting the sunlight. And this is what our ocular system. This is what our vision system is all built for our saccades or blink rates or tear films used to look at the real world which is reflective objects.

And so the kind of idea was let's work backwards from what's natural and natural principles. Reflective screens are the right way to do that. The problem is to your point, there are some existing reflective screens like the Kindle, the remarkable is they are just extremely limited. They are so slow. They can only refresh one or two times per second. You can read Harry Potter on them. You can take notes on them but you can't use them for more of computing.

They're so slow that you can't do email. You can't do chat, you can't use a mobile wallet. You can't do going through a PDF or going through a browser. You can't really type on it well. And so they're not computers. They are e-readers or e-notbooks. And so kind of the key call to arms is hey, if we could make a reflective screen technology that was super fast, you would get the benefits of being able to use it in the sun.

You get the benefits of it's not straining you. It doesn't cause eye strain. It doesn't give you headaches because it's like looking at normal objects. It's like looking at a paper book. And it doesn't produce blue light. And potentially it's a scalable technology you can go and reinvent all of computing with. You can make a monitor with this. You can make a laptop with this. You can make a phone.

And essentially you can create a whole class of kind of healthier or minimalist sovereign computers, not just from the software, all the way down to the hardware. And so that was our core invention, making the first 60 FPS as fast as your iPhone or iPad, e-paper reflective screen. It's kind of mind blowing. And you mentioned that this technology was actually, maybe it's the idea for it has been around for a little while.

Can you talk about a little bit of just the history of that? Because I'm curious, why did that get kind of tossed to the side? Did we just not have the information to know how bad the other emissive version was or was there something else at play? Yeah, basically what we did is we resuscitated the technology that was in the dustbin of the display world. It's 30 years old.

And essentially a bunch of random professors were convinced based on first principles that this was a viable technology and we're just reshifting. But along the way, you just ran into problems. There was manufacturing problems, there was process problems, there was material science problems. And some of it was just solved because manufacturing got better over time. But the real unlocks was every time by these professors, mainly from Japan, but also from the Netherlands and Germany,

came up with a new material science adaptation. And the reason it was thrown to the side is because it just simply wasn't good enough. And actually it started to get close to being good enough in like 2015. But when I became an expert in this industry, when you talk to the people, they're like, oh, why would you pay attention to something 25 years later? You know, people paid attention to it 10 years later, and 15 years, you're like an idiot if you're just like holding out with hope, right?

You know, it's seeming late at the end of this tunnel. So I got very lucky that I went in and just analyzed all the potential reflected display technologies. And I did this in 2018, 2019. And some of the most fundamental papers to make this possible came out in like 2018, 2015. And so I basically just got very lucky. And a bunch of other things came together too. Other manufacturing technologies were finally ready.

And so I tell Trista, it's not like we can get credit. We just happened to sweep on an area that was finally ready to reveal dinosaur bones, right? Like it's just the universe is ready for something at a certain period of time. So yeah, we've actually resuscitated a really old technology and made it viable again.

You know, I can't help but see the parallels to Bitcoin a little bit in terms of the combination of older ideas that had been around for a while, you know, hash cash and, you know, proof of work and Chami and cash, Chami and cash things that had been kind of done in isolation. It was cool. It was like a neat thing for a small group of people, but didn't really have the potential to scale for because it ran into various roadblocks.

But then, you know, somebody comes along or some people come along and decide to put some of these things together and kind of a novel way, but using these, you know, old ideas. And then presto you have you have Bitcoin. And it seems like again, a lot of it is like right place right time right people preparation meeting that opportunity.

So I think that's that's, it's really cool. I did not know this technology had been around for a solid, you know, 30 years and it's sounds like its time has come. Can you tell me a little bit also just about the so from a if we can like nerd out a little bit for a second and apologies to anybody who's like get back to the sunshine talk, which we will I promise. But so you're running. I believe it's like it's soul OS so it's a it's a custom build of Android 13. Is that correct.

Yeah, there's a lot of finance. Okay, okay. And is I saw on your website, it basically said distraction free operating system, everything you need nothing you don't. So can you talk just a little bit about like, what, what can you actually like do on this for people who are thinking of you know, an, an e reader or an e notebook. Right.

So in terms of like, is this a fully fledged, you know, tablet is this safe is a full computer can I can I do everything that I would do on a, you know, on on a iPad or on my phone it does it have all those capabilities. Yeah, I think the way to understand it is kind of there's three layers to it.

One is it is literally an equivalent to like an Android tablet. So you can have your browser you can do Gmail you can do Google Docs like you can do Excel you can do Microsoft Word, you can do YouTube you can do the browser like whatever you want to do, you'll be able to do here. And if you do use the product as such, you can kind of think of it as like you know, like gluten free cookies, you're still eating.

Like you might still be honest and be like doing Facebook or whatever, but it's healthier. Right. Okay, I like that. I don't like gluten free cookies, but you know, that's a good analogy. That's why I paused. I was like, I need to call it a better analogy here. But so the idea is like, you know, like, you because if you're still doing Facebook and this and that, there's maybe better things you can do with your time, but let's not be prescriptive of what you do.

Ultimately, you can do whatever you're going to do on a computer with the health benefits. And there it's purely just about the hardware and software wise, you can do whatever you can do on your existing tablet or phone, specifically. The second layer of it is we are building a kind of lockdown minimalist focus mode. We call the first mode cocaine mode and the second one is kale mode. And I'm not even a big fan of kale terminology here.

But the whole point of this one is it is beneficial to have focus tools and your normal computer is great at Netflix is great at, you know, having 50 tabs open, it's great at kind of being very ad D doing lots of stuff multitasking. But what it's not good at is when you need to read the Bitcoin white paper and you sit and focus. Right. It's not good for when you actually want to go deep and you want to learn.

And that second kale mode is to be kind of locked down to like reading things, taking notes, writing stuff, or knowledge work tools like an Excel or Microsoft Word or a mind mapping tool or something like that. And the basic idea is it's complimentary. The first one, it could be a replacement for existing computer in the second mode, it'd be complimentary to your existing computers.

So I like to use our thing in a kale mode, essentially, if there's a bunch of stuff I need to read, whether it be substack blog posts, long PDFs, I kind of load it all up onto it and then I go sit outside with it. And it's just got that I can't get distracted by Slack. I can't get distracted by, you know, what's that messages or ESPN is just kind of locked down to the couple things I want to do.

And I would say those are the core like two modes. And the third is we're modifying the actual operating system in deep ways. So for example, your daylight ID might be an Oscar ID underneath your daylight payments might actually be, you know, formal lighting or cash underneath. Because we control the OS because of our hardware, we can take a lot of these rails and build them in deeply.

And so that's where like we have a unique possibility of these don't need to be opt-ins, these don't need to be to download Chrome extensions, these don't need to be a download this wallet, and then figure out how to sort of like, you know, store your key and do that. We can build all of it into an OS. We can make key management of first party citizens. Now it's a lot of work. So it's a work in progress. And, you know, we got years ahead of us to do this.

But that's the true possibility is not just on the user facing side, you make it distraction free. And you curate it to kind of knowledge workouts. You also have the possibility of building it into the OS into the networking stack into the browser. Technology can be good or bad for us, depending on how we use it. And one piece of technology that I can promise will be good for you because it keeps your Bitcoin safe is the Bitbox O2 hardware wallet.

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But if you're listening to this podcast and feeling a bit overwhelmed, don't sweat it. Bitcoin consulting has you covered. Go to Bitcoin consulting dot us and book a consultation today. Again, that's Bitcoin consulting dot us. I love the focus on attention and kind of really paying attention to how you are spending your time, paying attention to more, more conscious use of this device.

Because you guys are still building a tool. You're building something so you can still be able to do work and interact in this modern world we live in. But trying to do that in a more conscious way and trying to make the, from the bottom up, make the system such that it is actually beneficial to you. Because I think a lot of these systems, they weren't designed for them to be as healthy as possible for you.

Quite the opposite. They were designed to sell you as much shit that you don't need as possible to steal your attention to constantly keep you in to keep you engaged with we don't care what but with something as long as it's in here, as long as it's in this device as long as it's in this platform as long as you're still scrolling through endless ticktocks or whatever it may be.

We just want to keep you in because ultimately we are either harvesting your eyeballs and selling that data or we are literally selling you something from our, you know, our sales partners.

Like this idea of let's try and make, like you may still do that as you said you may still use Facebook you may still use X whatever, but at least, at least you have the option to enter into a more focused mode, and the actual experience itself from a physiological standpoint is going to be better for you, which I think is, is just,

it gives me a lot of hope, I guess, like that, that there are folks building this and I mean you guys are obviously you're you're you're both Bitcoiners and you know you mentioned noster as well.

So these, you know, kind of freedom forward sovereignty forward technologies. How does that kind of factor into your, your vision for like where you see this going in the long term in terms of how you actually build out these solutions like your kind of guiding principles and like, you know, do you want to try and make a lot of this

open source, do you, you know, obviously some of it, like you've stumbled upon some really cool stuff so maybe you know, like, you might want to protect a lot of that IP but I'm curious how that factors in how you guys think about that what the ethos is from your perspective as you look toward the future of something that could potentially I hope be really really big and transformative.

I think there's two answers to that. I think the first one is a lot of this comes from kind of having this as a central concept being public benefit Apple. And almost all the decisions get simple when you have that as the guy said, I'll explain what I mean. I think the second thing is, I don't think I'm actually,

I think that's logically like, let's Bitcoin everything that's orange call everything. I think actually I still like to be like, what are the problems I have, what are the problems in society where the problems people have, and let's reverse engineers to figure out what the solution is.

I'll pick amongst what's best and it happens to be a lot of the times. Guess what is the best developed solution. And so to answer your question about the open source like they comes back to being public benefit Apple. One of the difficulties with Apple is you're not sovereign, because you can't actually go and check their code and fork it yourself and change things. You're always in their world garden at their best.

So our intention, it's not like it just takes time to properly set stuff up to the open source and so on. But yeah, our intention is to open source as much as we can do it in a smart pragmatic and preventive way. But basically, how else can you give people agency and sovereignty if they can't actually understand the ground they're standing on. That's what software is right. It's a ground standing on.

And so the things that we built, you know, that are we put a lot of work in into unique. I think the reality is, most people are still going to pick us because of the whole holistic user strengths you can pick. Even when you open source things, you can't necessarily recreate full holistic experience. And so for the nerves out there, the DIYers or people want to set up stuff, they'll have the flexibility to do what they want.

And for the vast majority of people, it'll just be easier to pick holistic experience. And so I don't think it's just like a naive good intention. I think it actually allows you to segment the market. So it's actually a good business as well, to make things open and hackable. But hackable, I mean, you can work on it. And the second part is, there's just so many possibilities for when you're not a public company with shareholders trying to get to 3 trillion.

There's so many possibilities in technology, if you're not optimizing for shareholders. And so one of the things I get excited about is the reason the online media landscape is so messed up is because of the incentives around it's all free content. With all going to be ads, where you're paying with your eyeballs. People have been talking about micro transactions to create a value for value exchange.

Where it's possible that what the reward is is people think something is actually valuable, you know, tips something or the online do.

Nobody's really done it because the big platforms that Google and Android, they have massive ad businesses, tiny little micro transaction businesses that potentially require more work, have a little bit of user friction, or a little bit confusing, are going to involve, you know, Bitcoin or things like that, because you can't do this with credit card fees, that whole system.

Well, they're not going to do it. And so for me, it's like, wow, the possibility of moving from an attention economy to a value exchange economy. With micro transactions to power that where when you go to read something, instead of getting, you know, instead of the author being paid with an ad, you are tipping them a half a cent or point one of a cent or whatever it is that adds up over time.

That's really powerful. And you don't need no user sign up process, you buy a computer, and it potentially has it built in with no cost to the user. We're not saying, Hey, this is our ideology. Here's a worst user experience because it's the world, the way the world should be. That's actually not really the way we think about it. It's like to the user, it just feels exactly like their iPad. And for all intents and purposes, you just change the incentive landscape.

Now, where authors could potentially get paid by micro transactions, because you built it into your browser, you built it into your last, you built it into your reader. And so whether it be Nostra or whether it be lightning Bitcoin, however ways we do it, we think identity, payments, even storage, all can be done where there's very little compromise, if any, like zero, potentially even better user experience. And you just have more friendly underlying rails.

The answer is often pick the best tool and it's pretty obvious. I think that's, that's really cool. And again, talking about ideas, whose time has come and kind of this confluence of different things that have allowed you guys to build out this hardware and work with this, you know, this stripped down Android OS, but then also to layer in things like Nostra for, for identity, and to have that again plugged into if you're running several different Nostra clients all from your, your tablet here.

And that's just a seamless experience for you. But then also, whether it be lightning or like the advances that are being made right now with Chami and eCache are really, really cool. And it's getting better so much faster. Like talking with, with Kali and like just, it blows my mind, the stuff that they're doing and how fast it is and how well it works. And being able to build that in again, the way you guys are talking about it at the OS level, where that's just a part of the experience.

You know, you're not saying, Hey, this is, this is a, you know, a Nostra and eCache and Bitcoin tablet. And you're like, no, no, this is, this is something else that's going to be better for you in terms of how you interact with technology. Also, the way in which you interact in a pro social way within this ecosystem happens to be built on top of these specific rails.

And I think that's, you know, you'll, you'll bring a lot of inadvertently orange pill, a lot of people just because they liked your product, not because they were like, Oh, it has Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin stuff built in that need. And it's like, no, I just, they wanted a better solution. So I think that's, that's pretty cool. And I wanted to, and that's the great promise is it's not that, Hey, we built something some Bitcoin or some buy it.

It's more like, Hey, we built something. So I'm on everywhere. So I'm going to replace my Chromebook or my iPad for my kid with this. And they know there's no difference. And you're just like, Oh, you just hand sign as a size of how many people are Nostra users, because all of them. Right. You've x percent increased the number of Bitcoin users because that is when they click on their Khan Academy article, like somewhere in the background, you know, this many sats are being zapped over.

So it's like, I think that's the real promise here. That was actually a perfect segue to what I wanted to chat about next, which is, which is speaking of moms and speaking of kids, the health of kids.

And Tristan, I want to, I want to ask you on this, because again, I know that you've gone very deep down a lot of these, these rabbit holes and kind of can you talk a little bit just about, you know, we, you talked earlier about, okay, here's kind of the damaging effects of these screens and whatnot, but it's more from like an adult perspective. We're talking about us right now being mostly fully formed adults, but still very susceptible to this.

I have a five month old son is wonderful and I, I, it's true what they say, like your life changes and you can't figure it out beforehand until it happens. Like, damn it, they were all right. But one thing I've noticed is for some reason, if he sees a screen, he is really pulled toward it. And we try to like, whenever we're interacting with him, keep the phones away, like, you know, don't have any screens.

You know, going in the background and certainly don't be taking your attention from him and giving it to this little black box because what kind of message is that sending to a forming brain. But just seeing how he's weirdly drawn to it, he has no, he has no idea what this phone is. He has no concept of knowing what it is. But for some reason, that pulls at him, these bright lights and these colors.

And you talk a little bit about like what this is potentially doing to our kids because generation, the Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they're kind of like the guinea pigs for being full digital natives. We don't know what that's going to mean in 20, 30, 40 years. Like, is there even any research? I hope there's some that's being done on the effects so far. But like, what, what do we actually know?

Yeah, we know that children and the younger they are, the smaller their bodies are, the more susceptible they are. At least two to five X, if they're infants, very little toddlers, it could be 10, it could be 100 times more susceptible to the electromagnetic effects of this technology.

So there's kind of two components. There's like the actual electromagnetic effects, which is the light, the blue light, the EMFs, radio frequencies, and then there's kind of the mental cognitive development piece as well. So the electromagnetic aspects are, you know, simple, right? They have smaller body sizes. So the same intensity of wave will affect them at a deeper biological level, because it's penetrating.

Like if you hold your cell phone up to your, your head to take a call versus, you know, a child or a 10 year old, let's say, is doing that. It's going to penetrate way deeper into their tissue. And another thing is on the body size piece is they're ergonomically holding everything closer to their body. So they're getting an increased exposure of intensity from that and electromagnetic waves.

Again, we're talking about light and then RF, EMFs, things like that. Every distance that you get closer, the intensity of the field squares an increase. So if you get two times closer to your body, which most kids are holding their phone probably two times closer than someone with a fully developed forearm, they're getting four times increase in the field intensity.

And then they have a developing biology and they also have higher water content, which water is really important because it acts as kind of an antenna. So it's constantly absorbing and receiving frequencies. So that's kind of the physical components. And then when you get into the mental aspects, right, the neurotransmitters, the effect on dopamine and things like that, what are children doing their entire childhood development?

They're learning, they're curious, they're programmed to be curious. Every parent will understand that kids become exact copycats of their parents. Whatever you do, they want to do. And you know, you really notice this and they become enamored with any little object in their environment because that's how we learn as humans. So with the screens and with the environment they're around, you are choosing their reality that they're learning it. You are choosing their training ground.

So if you're giving them a screen, you're training them to be in this artificial world that's highly stimulating, highly stressful on the body and really pulling them in as a portal. And of course they're more addicted, they're more drawn in. Anyone who doesn't have a kid can go on YouTube and look up a video of iPad kids or like taking an iPad away from a two, three, four year old. They lose their mind. They're so drawn in because that's what their biology is programmed to do.

It's programmed to learn, to dive in and to see what's going on so that the biology gets a feedback loop and then it can fine tune its development to excel in that sort of environment. So that's what happens. And fast forward 10 years, you know, I mean smartphones have been around for a decent amount of time now. We're getting the early signs of this, right? We're getting mental health crises through the roof in teenagers and, you know, suicides are increasing.

I mean, overall major depressive disorder is up 4x across the board for everyone in age groups since the turn of the century. And that's only going to continue to proliferate. And like you said, it's kind of a giant science experiment because we really don't know.

And the other thing if you want to get really deep is kind of at the cellular level where this is kind of taking place, you know, mutations are happening at a genetic level at a mitochondrial level, which actually is a byproduct of your environment. And then that can get passed down to the next generation. So if you have someone who's grown up in an artificial reality and it has kids when they're 25 or 30, they're already passing a baton, a torch to their next generation.

That's been a bit fragmented. It's been kind of altered. And then that child is already set up for a lower kind of starting point. And then you're giving them an iPad when they're a year and a half, two years old, and they're always on screens. They're learning all day on screens. They're never outside anymore, which is really all kids should be doing is getting outside and running around barefoot and playing and feeling.

And, you know, you're setting them up for failure. And that's why we're seeing chronic disease, mental health issues, younger and younger. And we're seeing Parkinson's in like your 40s and dementia. Like this is not this already was like an issue, a chronic disease. And now it's just happening earlier and earlier. And in my opinion, it's going to continue to happen. And unless there's an alternative, there's an intervention. And that's why we're so passionate about it.

But now I mean fertility rates, people can't even have kids anymore. And the ones that maybe are just above that threshold again, you're handing off the baton and maybe a not so ideal environment.

So for us, one of the largest initiatives, one of the most important areas that we can be successful in is getting this in the hands of more moms, parents, children, because we want to create a future where they can learn, but not be set up for failure at a biological level, because those early years of development are critical for the rest of your life in terms of a health context.

So yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about this. For a long time, I was like, shit, I'm just going to like raise kids and they're not getting screens till they're 18. I mean, I don't know, like that was the decision. And there's a lot of parents, you know, Montessori schools, Lawn Dwarf schools that like they don't even allow screens.

And it doesn't have to be that way now. Like we actually figured out something that is neutral to our biology and still can be like a productive tool for learning. And that's what's really exciting. No, I mean, it's honestly so like kind of terrifying when you think about it, about it, just that this is a generation of guinea pigs right now.

And to put your kid through that, like when I see really young kids that are just literally like glued to some, I don't know, bouncing fruit game or whatever. And it's like, I also I can now empathize because it's like, you know, I get it, maybe you needed to get something done. And so you just said, well, let me just let me just give them this iPad and let them distract themselves. But that's like a really slippery slope.

And it's also funny because if you look at some of the, you know, biggest technologists whom, you know, everybody knows, you know, Steve Jobs or Zuckerberg. These guys didn't allow or Steve didn't mark doesn't allow their kids to use their own products. They were selling these products or in Zuckerberg's case, giving them away for free to your kids. But their own kids do not use these or at least not until they're, you know, 14, 15, 16.

So that that should kind of tell you everything you need to know because these guys know how the sausage is made. Like they they're the ones who make the sausage, they see everything that goes into it and they don't want their kids eating that toxic sausage, at least until they're old enough to have their brains a little bit more developed. And so, you know, I'm just kind of curious, like, do you think that this is something that can be reversed? Can this be turned around?

Or is it just kind of like too late for a massive swath of the population? Like, it's probably too late, I guess, for kids that have already grown up with screens since the age of two and are now, you know, 16, 17. Like, maybe it's maybe it's a little too late for them. I don't know.

Like, is your focus kind of on on folks of all or parents who have kids of all ages, or are you really trying to target like, look, for these younger generations now coming up, like, we have a chip, maybe we screwed up in this last time, but we have a chance to do things better and we now have a better technology to do it. Like, is there hope for some of these kids or is like, I don't mean to be sound dark, but like, are a lot of them just fucked? No, I mean, there's hope for everyone.

I mean, not just kids, like adults. I mean, anyone can benefit from healthier technology. And yeah, if you intervene and, you know, your five month old is never uses a blue lit iPad and his whole life instead of daily computer. Yeah, they're probably going to be a lot better off than if, you know, you had started that process five years later. But the reality is our biology, you know, humans are very adaptive to their environment. And that's a blessing in the curse, right?

That's why all these developmental issues happen in the first place, because we can adapt so quickly. And even though that happens and, you know, the younger it occurs, it's very important. It doesn't mean there's there's no coming back from that. People can make substantial changes for the better in their health and their development and their long term kind of just lifestyle if they just decide to do it and they have that healthier alternative. So this is for all ages, all kids.

I mean, especially the younger ones. And we really, I mean, a message of hope and liberation is what we are trying to convey to the world. Because for so long, there was no alternative. And do we think that, you know, we're going to reach 90 plus percent of parents? Probably not. I mean, it's unrealistic to expect that. It's the same thing with Bitcoiners or in general. How many people do you think are going to be awake enough or care enough to make a deliberate change in their lifestyle?

We don't know. We hope it can be as many as possible and we hope we can be a platform of education as to why these topics matter. But we do understand the pervasiveness that big tech has in our community. And there probably will be, you know, a lot of smear campaigns or like, you know, I mean, there already is right? Like EMFs and Blue Light. Like there's nothing to worry about. Like obviously there's no chance that Apple comes out tomorrow and says all these things are bad for you.

Like here's a healthier product. They can't. They're stuck. They have no incentive to do so. So for us, you know, carving out of a really nice niche in the community of parents and sovereign individuals and health advocates is a great option. And if that grows way beyond kind of a niche market, then that's amazing. But we don't judge success on converting everybody. We judge success on even changing a few lives.

And we've already had that happen with folks with severe eye strain and TBI way worse than mine, where they couldn't physically work a job in their adult life because they could no longer stare at screens. And now their entire life has changed because they have a daylight computer. So it's moments like that. Like what is success and really success is just having a healthier, more sovereign alternative. And that's why we're so excited.

But we're not just going to stop until we've done all we can to, you know, get this message out to as many people as possible. And I think this is a problem that society faces over and over again in different forms. Like, oh, like the invisibility problem. Like this is the same as like leaded gasoline, where immediately you're like, oh, this stuff is better. And only over time you find out, oh, it has all of these side effects and unintended consequences. It's the same thing with smoking.

Oh, I feel great. It's only over time you see all the unintended consequences to yourself and to your family. Right. That's what sometimes we talk about. Blue light will feel like this generation smoking, which 20 years or 10 years from now, we'll look back and do that was insane. Giving two year olds these things that are just destroying their circadian rhythms and metabolism. Right. But that's just the reality. I think it's a similar thing with money.

The printing of money is an invisible thing. And it's only the consequences over time. Do you see the way it impacts you and blue light? It's an invisible thing. You know, it's the computer is not actually bright blue at all the time. Right. And so it's just, it's an invisible thing that the consequences hit you over time. And to your point, I think the great promise here is because we are plastic, like you'll notice the difference, right? Like you put blue blockers on.

You feel sleepy way sooner within even like your first day or first couple of days. Like the body is amazing. And I do think hopefully we'll be able to reverse it for a lot of children. And then especially this next generation, like your child where they don't grow up with this. What's the possibilities of them having that full capacity human as because I love somebody's analogy, which is we're all just wearing lead backpacks all the time.

Whether it be micro plastics or whether it be pesticides and food, whether it be blue light or being stuck indoors all the time. Like you could technically go through life always with a lead backpack with all of this stuff pushing on your physiology and you know, on your psychology. But like at a certain point, those are going to have externalities. So we're going to have side effects. You are going to, you know, it's going to hurt. And so just like, let's get let go of the lead backpacks.

I think that's the promise for the next generation. You can't do anything about the micro plastics in your balls, but you can do something about the blue light in your eyes. Maybe that's the yeah, or maybe you can do something about the micro plastics in the balls. I haven't seen the research Tristan anything on that or we all do him to have plastic in our balls forever. I mean, yeah, don't wear polyester and you know, heat keto plastic Tupperware in your microwave. That's my recommendation.

Yeah, just don't wear underwear period. Yeah, you know, like, yeah, let them let them fly. You don't need you don't need that compression. They were they were made to dangle. But anyway, that's slightly off topic there. You know, it's funny, I feel like a lot of people and this is myself included, we have like this love hate relationship with technology where it's like, oh, technology is great. I hate it. Like this, this is so awesome. It sucks.

This like this dualism of like, we see all the like how how many other things we're able to do. Thanks technology. We've got these super computers, you know, in our pockets. That's amazing. Like we can do so much with them. We've got these super computers that we're talking, you know, across the country across the world on right now. That's amazing. We can they are amazing tools.

And in terms of social interaction online to opening up these niche communities that we maybe never would have been exposed to without the internet without these devices without social media. But we start to realize like, I don't like what this does to me sometimes. And it seems like it seems like what you guys are doing a little bit is like, it's an acknowledgement that yeah, technology is fucking awesome.

But you don't maybe you don't have to hate it so much and maybe it doesn't have to be so so bad. But because we we do still need it. Like, unless you're just like totally off the grid and are, you know, like as close on that sovereignty spectrum as you can be and don't have any contact with the outside world, like, you're probably going to need a phone or a tablet or something or a computer to do your work.

And so like, you know, is that kind of part of the driving here because I know you guys obviously both you work very hard and you work from wherever you are. And so I remember you said, you know, this is something that like you wanted to be able to use you were trying to solve a problem for yourself. And can you can you talk about that a little bit. I mean, just as it relates to like the modern workplace is also shifting now right like you.

A lot of people can work outside if if they choose to but you know your laptop overheats or you can't fucking see the screen like how do you look at kind of solving that personal problem of I know I need to use this stuff. But I want to use it in a different way. I think it was just recognizing, oh, we're not just a middle finger technology or like a love letter to technology that like you don't need to throw the baby up with the bathwater.

And the power of technology is that maybe a better version of ourselves, if properly applied, and the failure of current technologies were often the worst version of ourselves. And so the simple example that comes to mind is I was reading a book explaining how a combustion engine works.

And I just couldn't get it. And then instead there was this interactive textbook that somebody had made where he had like actual 3d models of the engine, which the things moving, and you can rotate the engine around. And I would show you the cylinders and show you when the fuel gets injected and how the explosion happens. You could see it from the top, you could see it from the side. I understood how an engine worked like I left that feeling way smarter.

And so it's like, sure, you could read a paper book, but sometimes stuff that's hard, right? You need video, you need that the dynamism. And so yeah, the possibility here is to reclaim the parts of computing that makes us the better versions of ourselves while holding off all the externalities and all the temptations, all the self sabotage of all the distractions. And you might end up with something that's humbler, but overall is better.

And I think that's the key part here is stop optimizing for sex appeal and stop optimizing for like core principles of health and productivity and you know, getting shit done and learning. And so I'm a bit frustrated that I'm not using a daylight computer now to have this call, right? But like, that's what we want to do next is like make a phone, make a laptop so you can do zoom calls. The core compromise you would need is the lack of color.

We might solve that in a couple of years, but as for now that. And so there's just going to be some stuff we can't do. You're going to need, you know, but for the most part, if the big compromise is candy crush, like that's kind of okay. Like I wouldn't mind taking this call in black and white. And so the possibility here is, yeah, just a simpler minimal set of computers where your essay gets done a little bit easier.

You know, your outline that you need to write for doing a video gets done a little bit quicker. That cancer researcher trying to figure out how to cure lung cancer is able to finish that just across the board. A kid can go to sleep reading a cool interactive book that explains to them how rockets work. And so I'm very motivated by creating a whole legion of computers based around these values. And they all might look slightly different.

But the core thing is how do you respect health, how do you respect detention, how do you respect freedom? And I'm willing to take tradeoffs elsewhere, whether it be in sex appeal or oh, it's this thing or whatever it may be. I mean, the daylight tablet does look pretty sexy though. If I can say that, I mean, and there's something, I've got to say, your marketing around it has been really nice too. Because I appreciate like it's such a breath of fresh air to see marketing that's like go outside.

You know, like, whoa, what a fucking, what a concept like go be in the sunshine and also maybe put this thing that we're selling you put it down for a while and maybe don't use it all the time. Like, it's really, I'm like trying to think of something else that I've seen that has similar kind of marketing. It's really just not that the contrast, the really stark contrast would be at the bottom.

The stark contrast would be Apple's latest, you know, tablet commercial where they're literally crushing all these physical things together, literally destroying the physical world, destroying reality to plug it into an ever thinner little piece of attention seeking technology, which is just sad, but the contrast was nice. So well done in that regard.

But man, yeah, talk about like, they're, I feel like even just when we look at VR and things like that, like it's a full on rejection of the physical world. And there's cool stuff you can do with it. Like we had an Oculus headset, I got one early in the pandemic. You know, Carla loved playing Beat Saber on it to get a little exercise, like, you know, had some fun with it. But like that virtual reality, I mean, perhaps it can replace reality for a lot of people, but, but never really, right?

Because ultimately, there's no way to replace reality when you are emitting these images into someone's retina. Like it, unless there's something I'm missing, but I just don't think it can be done and people say it's going to be indistinguishable from reality, but it's like, but that's not the same thing as being real. You know, you know, now, now I'm rambling a little bit, but it just, it gets to me a little bit, some of this stuff, because it feels like we lost the plot. We did.

We definitely did. And you know, marketing is easy when it's seated in truth, authenticity and realness, you know, all we're doing is like saying, hey, like, let's get back in the real world. What is that? That's nature. That's the outdoors. That's physical connection with people in your community. That's real food. It's, you can't fake that.

And they make, they might make you seem like, oh, this is really close to where, you know, we're just going to be able to reincorporate all of that into a virtual setting. There's no chance that's that close and that will ever be fully replicatable. We don't even understand the depths of our own biology clearly. So how could you believe this facade that they're preaching? And that's, it's really that simple. So the job becomes pretty easy when we can just be like, Hey, this is what we're about.

And our product, our mission is to help facilitate a return to reality so you can have a more fulfilling life. And that's a fun mission to market. I will tell you that. It's, it's nice to see. And it's again, I think you, you hit the nail in the head with when you're coming from a place of truth, it becomes a lot easier to figure out what the messaging should be. Because the messaging is just the truth. You don't, you don't have to spin it. You don't have to sugarcoat it in some way.

You don't have to bullshit people. You just have to tell them the truth about what you're about. And if that resonates with them, great, you know, then you haven't tricked them. And as, you know, as, as founders, as, you know, builders, you don't have to feel bad about what you're creating. You can feel good about it because I'm sure there are a lot of folks who have built a lot of different technologies over the years that probably have a lot of different technologies.

And I think they've built a lot of different technologies over the years that probably feel perhaps pretty shitty about it. If they look back and see the effects that they've had. And I mean, you know, luckily you guys won't have to, won't have to deal with that. You know what? I'm, I'm curious just in a more general sense. Because we had a few people ask this, like this was a question that was asked multiple times.

And it's a very logistics one, but are you guys going to be shipping out like internationally to a bunch of different countries? And you know, you know, you know, you can't just get the international Salvador people want this, man, like they really want it. Right now, internationally, we did Canada, the UK and the EU. And we're basically just looking for indications of demand elsewhere. And the second we feel like there's enough demand, we'll set it up.

It's just, it's costly to do a new country. And so we're not a big company yet. So yeah, yeah, intention is to slowly get more international. I promised I would ask that one. So I wanted to get it in there, but I do, I do want to talk just a little bit more about kind of sovereignty in general. And like what that actually means to you guys and how this factors into your mission. Because I've used sovereignty basically like a, you know, like it's like an asymptote.

It's, it's, it's always approaching. You can, you can get closer and closer and closer to sovereignty. Like, but you know, Bitcoin will get closer and closer to 21 million, but it won't ever quite hit it because you're cutting it in half. Right. I view sovereignty the same way. Like it's, it's pretty much impossible to get absolutely every little things that you can say. Yes, there is no part of any of my existence for which I depend on absolutely no one but myself. And like that's okay too.

Right. Like that's not a bad thing. So all of our goals is to maximize our own personal sovereignty and make whatever tradeoffs we deem appropriate for the future. For the furthering of our, you know, our own purposes. But how do you guys look at that from, from the health, from the attention, from the technology perspective? Like what does that actually mean to you guys in terms of how you go about creating this product? How you look at even just like what you want to make available on it.

And you talked about Nostra and E-cash integrations and things like that. But how does that, what's, what's the goal there for you guys personally? Because we talked about, you know, creating a product that solves your problems. What's that sovereignty problem that you were looking to solve at a personal level? I think you've asked such a beautiful question. I think it's like deep, deep philosophy of like what it means to be free or to be a gentek.

I think the thing that personally, so I don't know if it's an answer for your question, but at least personally is I replace my definition of sovereignty from being like not dependent on anything else. To instead being of having your choices respected and have the freedom to make open choices. And so you can choose to be in a dependent relationship with something. But the point is it's done out of consent.

It's done out of choice because I think the whole, I don't want to be dependent on anything else is also unrealistic to what it means to be human. Like humans are tribal creatures. We, it is the group that is what makes us human. But it's the fact that we can choose. And so the simplest lack of sovereignty for me when you're saying like, how do we apply it is there's nothing wrong with Netflix. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with Instagram.

It's they've booby trapped and backdoor and set up the things that we use such that our free choice is being sabotaged. The problem is I go to write an essay and I'm on Instagram for 30 minutes. That can't just be my fault that like I don't have enough willpower or something like that. It's not like I go to Starbucks, right? And then I immediately start, I don't know, like go to the beer garden down the street.

Like I can be reasonable in managing my will and my intention is these things are booby trapped. And that is not a respect of my choice. My choice is constantly being undermined. I'm not able to be sovereign. Unless I'm constantly exercising so much willpower and so much push away, push away, push away, which for a lot of people, especially if you're neurodivergent, it's unrealistic. The same thing with health. You can put blue light blockers on and you can do it.

I'm just not conscientious enough to always wear blue light blockers and that doesn't help with flicker. And so why are they impinging on my freedom to say I want to go to sleep and wind up? You know, read Hastings had a quote, which is that Netflix's competition is not like Hulu or Disney Plus, it's sleep. I'm like, dude, I can't believe you're saying that publicly. I can't believe you're like literally saying what you're saying. But I don't have the freedom to quote unquote like live my life.

They are trying to have an uneven playing field, which is in their best attempts. So to me, really, what sovereignty means to the digital world is what are your choices and how do you own them? And how do you stop other people from sabotaging it and make the playing field a little more level? But that's health, but that's attention, whether it's their business model, whether it's in these basic technologies around payments, identity, storage, networking. I love that. What about you, Tristan?

Yeah. This is something I've thought about because these buzzwords always pop up, right? And I do just talking about this, I feel like I overuse the word sovereignty and decentralization kind of inherently we all probably do, right? But what does sovereignty actually mean? If you look it up, it means like supreme power and you actually might want to call it individual sovereignty. And then if that's the goal, do we have supreme power and rain over our own lives?

And the answer is that will never happen. Why? Because everything that Anjan just mentioned, we are being bombarded without consent. Perfection and individual sovereignty at the highest level is not feasible. It's just not possible given our environment. However, if you take deliberate steps to have a progression towards being more sovereign at an individual level, then that's really what you're looking for.

That's getting outside and eating real food and being able to have some kind of ownership over how you're using your attention and time. And yeah, but then you're going to go to the park and they might be spraying the grass with chemicals, which happened to me this morning. Or there's chemtrails and cell phone towers everywhere. You can't control things. So it's the nature of the world we live in. And then you do get into that individualism, right?

Is that really the goal of being a more sovereign individual is to just lone wolf it? And of course not. You have to get there on your own journey and become that best version or a much better version of yourself. But then at a community level, you are always stronger when you're working together and have some resilience and redundancy through a collection of sovereign individuals. And that's what decentralization is. You know, it's nodes of powerful areas and entities or beings in ourself.

And that's really, I think, how you need to look at it because it can become overwhelming and you can become neurotic. You can have a doomer mindset very quickly, whether that's when you go down the health rabbit hole, the geopolitical rabbit hole, the Bitcoin rabbit hole, you know, the world is over, you know, like this is terrible situation. But think about step back. It's like, okay, what can I control? How can I progress at an individual level of sovereignty?

And then how can I extrapolate that outwards into the people, into the community around me so I can embark change and perhaps embark a little snowball effect to where that collective sovereignty at an individual level continues to rise without even people realizing it. And that's all we're trying to build here is optionality. And that that is freedom, right? The ability potentially to, you know, have a house in multiple countries in case things go wrong.

That's that's freedom because you have optionality. And that's why, you know, these other passports are something that people are looking into. But but having the ability to buy higher quality food or, in our case, having a piece of technology that is still allowing you to be productive without robbing you of some of your individual sovereignty, your cognitive sovereignty. That's freedom. The ability to have that choice. And that's really what we're after.

So it's something that's tough to wrangle with. And as someone who has gone down a lot of rabbit holes, it's hard to step back. But I think getting to the root of these words is kind of fun because we use them so often. And it's exciting. And I think we're all on a constant progression.

And all we need to keep doing is moving one step forward and realizing that the more people we kind of infect with this positive, this hope, this liberation mindset, the more we're going to be able to change the world and kind of have this society that's empowered instead of the opposite. And yeah, that's my mission at an individual level and also when I'm working for daylight. I love it.

You mentioned that doomer mentality, which I think is nihilism is an easy thing to slip into for a lot of people. It's like, well, you know, everything's so so fucked like what what can we do? And you see the kind of posts all the time that are like, oh, how could you possibly bring a child into this world when things are as bad as they've ever been? And it's like, well, to the anti-natalists, like you're free to not reproduce the rest of us will.

You can voluntarily voluntarily self select yourselves out of the gene pool. That's fine. But like you, you don't need to like there's a lot of things that give me hope. But I'm curious, like, what's the biggest white pill for you guys? What's the biggest beacon of hope that you look at and say, you know what, things are going to be all right. And this gives me the drive to keep working toward that future.

I think for me, it's for me, it's just the existence proof that like we were even able to do this. Like, who are we? If somebody was joking, there's a company that's raised hundreds of millions of dollars called Humane that tried to make a more humane computer. He said one person on Humane's team had more experience than all of us on Daily. One person.

And so the fact that we were able to do this and on a relatively humble budget given the category just gives me hope that a lot of the time the world is not the best version of itself, not because it's not possible, but because there is a lack of courage, a lack of bravery, a lack of obnoxiousness, however you want to do it. And so the question I ask myself is, damn, I don't think we're anything special. And we were able to do this.

Imagine like in other fields, how many other opportunities like this are possible and just need to solve group of motivated people with patients with a bit of pain tolerance and some persistence. And so that's the big white pill for me is, wow, the world is not the best version of itself. And a lot more is possible than you think if a couple of motivated people come together.

So. Yeah, I think it's really just the antithesis of self limiting beliefs, the benefit of technology and the benefit of the world we live in. But also the kind of detriment of it is that there is an unlimited amount of information available to us and that insane amount of choices and paths that you can now take is actually a detriment for a lot of people, especially people who are quite like low dopamine and stuck in the artificial reality that modern technology is keeping them in.

But if you have that ability to remove yourself, you can accomplish anything, you know, I mean, at daylight, I think we pride ourselves in having a very well rounded set of team members, people that can do anything. I mean, on Jun is the king of generalists and I'm an electrical engineer and I'm doing marketing and things like that.

It's fun because you have all of these opportunities to learn and the fact that, you know, so many Bitcoiners are the same way they've come from all these walks of life and then now they're embarking change. Really, the sign of hope the white pill is like, look at where we're at. Look at all this that we've already done. And that is the most motivating factor you could ever have.

And when I had my concussions, all I said, and I was in this really dark place, like five months in, felt at my absolute bottom, told myself, I could just be 10%, 20% better than I am right now. That will make the world of a difference. I don't even care if I never get back to my baseline. If I just get 20% better in the next year. That's a win.

And then every time you make that progression, you look back and you're like, Oh my God, you know, we're going to keep going, we're going to keep progressing, we're going to keep iterating, we're going to learn along the way, and we are going to win, you know, to quote Marty Bent, right. And we are going to not stop until we achieve the society, the products, the community that we want to achieve. And even being in this space now, both the Bitcoin and Hellspace for like six plus years.

I mean, just look back, look back at five years ago. You know, on Jean as well, like when he first started this, like it's incredible. There's there's no stopping this train now. And all you need to do is look at all the amazing things that are being built to realize that. And that's why it's so fun to show up every day to life to work. You can have that do our mindset, but I'd rather be living right now than any other time in human history. And this is this weird transitional period.

It can last five years, glass 10 years, glass 200 years. Who knows. But we're part of that. And that's pretty cool. So that's why, you know, wake up every day pretty, pretty excited. And just to give you a quote that like really landed this for me is some somebody said in a very depressing fashion, they said, the saddest part about modern reality is it's easier to make a God than to agree. And the example he was giving is we're going to have a GI before we move away from the QWERTY keyboard.

That's a wild thing to think about. And QWERTY is like not efficient. We all have a little bit more carpal tunnel like our fingers and hands all hurt. You can literally type the word typewriter in the first row of a QWERTY keyboard. Like all of us are primary way of interacting with the computer is a typewriter sales guys stunt to show that they could do. And the fact that we're going to have a GI before we move to a more efficient, you were for that. Like that just blows my mind.

And to me, so validates how inspiring something like Bitcoin is because it is getting people to agree. That thing that is harder to do than to create a God. And it was one guy or who knows Satoshi out of nowhere pulling things together to our point of it just takes somebody with the right grit or courage. And so to me, that's so powerful. An example of getting humans to actually coordinate in a career around something. It's a wild thing to think about with the keyboard versus a GI comparison.

That's quite a nice parallel to draw. What was off topic? What was that other there was another style of keyboard that like started to gain prominence for a while. You know what I'm talking about? Or Jack Colnack. Yeah, there was a couple of that were like inarguably better. Yes. But just like people were like, well, we got this one already. So I guess I feel like so much of so much of our, let's say, technological lives is kind of built around that idea of, well, we've got this already.

What are we going to do? Exactly. And then you start to appreciate Bitcoin where you're like, dude, if you told me you can convince everybody to switch keyboards, like switching money is only that much harder. Right. So a few things are going to be harder than switching keyboards and money is one of them. And it's like the fact that this thing is like on its way is just mind blown. You might have just like invented a nice new like a barometer there.

Like is it harder than getting people to switch keyboards? Like yes or no. Like you use that as your demarcation of like, can this be done? You know, like, Bitcoiners talk this way. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I love it. I'd love to know too, because what you guys are doing, you're doing hard hardware and software that is always harder than doing like, then, you know, a lot of people these days, it's like, it's just software, which is hard enough on its own.

But doing hardware and software is like quite an undertaking because you have to actually physically make something and you guys were making something that is new. Do you have a message for folks out there, you know, younger entrepreneurs or older entrepreneurs, they can be boomers too.

They can be the, they can be Joe Biden's age even perhaps, you know, anyone can create something new, but do you have a message for people who like, look at this and say, oh my God, that's, you know, it's so daunting. Like I'd love to do something like that. But like I just couldn't possibly, you know, do the hardware too. Like, because I think that's the big block for a lot of people is like, well, where do you even start?

I'm sorry, I don't think I actually have a simple answer here because we can't get right through the standard. The reality is the supply chains in the world are messed up and they're all about scale and they're all about conventional. So what makes innovation hard is if you do try to make it in a way that is producible, it's insanely difficult. Because you have to get all these gatekeepers, all those third parties to work with you.

You know, Elon Musk says that the thing is hard to build, but the thing that makes the thing is the real hard thing. That's totally true. And so I actually think there's a social function missing of rich people basically helping create new factories, new supply chains, whether it be robots or this, that'll lower the barrier for innovation. Because right now, technology is so homogenous. There's only a couple of people who make it. In nature, there's so many niches with so many different species.

Where is the equivalent in technology? We need lots of people at lots of companies making lots of different things and then you get competition as well. Do you think 3D printing? Do you think 3D printing kind of gets like, there have been some incredible advancements obviously and even just the last couple of years. Do you think that starts to get to that point where anybody can fab in their basement and be their own little mini factory?

Totally. Yeah, especially for the mechanical side of things, things that are highly mechanical. I think it's still not there yet, but every year we're getting closer and closer and closer. Some of the new parts, the metal 3D printer parts are as strong as normal. That wasn't the case. You just need rich people to subsidize things. Every time you make an electronic product, all the wires, they're called flexes. They're all customized. And it's like, who can afford to make all this custom?

It shouldn't be custom. They're making a tablet. We all should be utilizing the same. Somebody just needs to make a bunch of designs that are standard that other people could use. We just made a podcast going into how it's really messed up. Tristan used to work deeply in the industry, so he gets any better than me. Well, I'm curious, Tristan, from your perspective, do you think, because I think lack of standardization is always a huge issue.

I think a lot of the reason that you get lack of standardization is because when everything is closed source and held very tightly to the chest. There's no incentive. There's no incentive to share. There's no incentive to standardize, because if you standardize, you have to tell somebody else how you're doing it, right? Is that the main thing? Do we start to get away from that just with more of an open source ethos? Absolutely, yeah.

I mean, the secret sauce or kind of like how you go about doing things. If you cross pollinate and collaborate, that's a win, right? So I think the most important thing about our communities, our mission is, how do we get more of these companies, right? We did a conference this weekend. We had Matt Hill from Star 9 and Anjan talking about it. It's like, why are there two companies doing this? There should be 10. There should be 20.

It's obviously extremely challenging from the supply chain, from the top heavy centralized big tech world we live in to break through. But if there were more companies, it would allow for kind of that collaborative effect. And then that's when you all win, because you can drive innovation forward. You're competing against each other. And then the end consumer is coming out with optionality, which turns into a proliferation of free choice and sovereignty. So there's just been gatekeeping.

There's been so much control and monopolization in the semiconductor electronics tech industry for two decades now. And you see the government interventions trying to play a role in that and hand out even more breaks and grants. I mean, do you know how much it costs to build like a semiconductor fab? It's insane, right? And we talk about the number one, maybe top three issues in the world right now with Taiwan and China, right?

So it's very delicate and it's very interesting to think about how we could improve this. But there's no immediate solutions besides putting in the proof of work and getting a few off the ground and successful to lead the way forward for the rest. And that's what we're excited to see as well. We don't want to be kind of only ones for the next 20 years doing something. We want to see way more competition.

Yeah. I mean, I love that that's the mentality because I think everybody benefits when there is competition, right? Like that's you're going to naturally make things better. It's going to force you as a company to be better, to be to be more inventive, to be more clever. And ultimately you're going to make a better product because you're, you know, when you're competing against somebody because then you've got something to benchmark against. Are we are are are we X amount better than they are?

Are we doing this better? And like that's a it's a powerful thing. And so much of our economy has become quite monopolistic, but not necessarily natural monopolies forming. It's because the barriers to entry are so damn high and made higher by regulations which are pushed by the folks at these large organizations who have the giant team of lawyers to make sure that you've got to jump through, you know, 69 hoops to be able to even get in the front door.

And so, you know, I have hope that that's going to change. I think it's that's a that's a very slow process though. But, you know, back to Bitcoin fixes this.

You know, maybe, maybe fixing some of the incentives at the base layer starts to maybe sapping some of that power away from the state starts to turn the tides a little bit back to what they naturally should be which is more natural competition, like competition is natural, like, and good, like, let's, let's compete more, you know, we all get better because of it.

But I want to be conscious of both of your scarce time here. We've run for the time flew right by here and I appreciate your attention and your time. Because I know you guys are working really hard. So I want to want to just end on a totally different note which is, is there a book you'd recommend like one that you really love that you will recommend to to everyone.

And then are you reading anything right at this moment, perhaps on your on your daylight tablet that you would recommend from a more like I'm reading this right now and I dig it perspective. Sure. Oh, I'm I have both a physical copy and I'm reading it on my daily but it's a it's a graphic novel called flattening is basically about how all of reality all the beauty of it has been reduced and flat it, you know, put into a spec, put into an objective.

And what makes reality awesome is we're full, we're full beings were complex. You know, we have many dimensions to us. So it's just a great reminder that, you know, it's kind of what would they call it like Teach for America or Common Core or something where, you know, everything's reduced down to a spec. Oh, everybody passed their test, they must be educated. And it's like, no, it goes back to the principle you're saying how do you make things back to being natural and real and holistic.

Right, which includes spirit and source and you know your health and all of this. So I've been loving this one. And a book that freely impacted me historically I think was brave new world. I would recommend that for your audience, because 1984 is what happens when, you know, all the things were afraid of, you know, council on us a totalitarian regime, brave new world is like what happens when everything you want it happens to you.

And you lose your freedom in the process. Right. It's like, it's a Neil postman puts it. Brave new world is the future where we win and still lose. And I think that's what VR and living forever wearing diapers and VR is like, you know, you technically have everything a human needs. And then the soul and the heart is lost in it. So I think it's a beautiful reminder of, you know, false victories.

And also it seems that the graphic novel you're reading now is basically a characterization of that Apple ad with just smashing it. Yeah, exactly. We're back full circle there. Okay. What about you Tristan? Yeah, the book that changed my life was called the brain changes itself by by Norman Deutsch. And it just talks about all these profound, you know, healing stories and journeys of people with far, far, far more traumatic brain or nervous system injuries that I had.

And you read that. I mean, you could change your entire mental framework of like where you are today, and then what you can achieve. And Anja mentioned it, right? We're plastic where our brains have the ability to change. This is a relatively new scientific discovery also. And that's why these invisible, you know, inputs and invisible things in our environment are so kind of gray to the standard centralized system because it's a new thing.

It's esoteric. It borders on the, you know, line of science and fringe, but it's real. And that changed my complete, you know, understanding and belief system around what I could achieve. And then for everyone who wants to learn more about health and light, there's a book called health and light.

It was written in the 70s by John Ott. And we actually, I think, put it on the tablet as one of the PDFs to read. And there's a cool documentary if you don't like reading on YouTube, which it's in black and white.

I'm pretty sure. So, you know, it's a perfect mirage, but it's funny to me because he talks about all the things that we have talked about, maybe at a slightly higher level because it was the 70s in terms of lighting, affecting, you know, the cognitive behavior of children in schools and affecting the way plants grow and the importance of full spectrum sunlight.

And you think about it and there's a similar book on on EMFs and from Robert O. Becker and Andrew Marino. But you think about it, what was going on in the 70s? And I think this information was out there and then it became suppressed. And I think about this very often that we've we've had these thoughts, we've had these solutions and ideas and, you know, John went on to make like a special fluorescent light bulb that was full spectrum.

And obviously after a few years, you know, stop production and that was that for the next like 30 years. So, and then I think about 1971 and the timing of that. And there's a lot of correlations with our food system, a similar, you know, down ramp. It's like right when things were kind of getting to a point of we're going to, you know, change for the better, we're learning from our mistakes.

And then fiat money became the supreme ruler. And since then we've been on this downward spiral. So there's always a framing there that involves, you know, the monetary system. And that one's a good one. So I highly recommend checking that out. I was really hoping you were going to bring it back to what the fuck happened in 1971 and you did not disappoint there. Now it is. And that could probably talk for hours just about how much they've, the food did get fucked up right around that period.

And how so much of it, I mean, literally, like if we just talk about corn production being jacked through the roof, because why the government threw around a bunch of subsidies. Like this is so many of these things come back to state intervention. And it's like people will often accuse Bitcoiners of being reductionist in this way where it's like, well, you can't just bring everything back to the, you know, to the money and it's like,

but man, you can bring a lot of it back there. And it turns out when you fuck with the base layer of everything, you fuck with everything. And that's, that's both a terrible thing in the context of where we've been up until the creation of Bitcoin, but a very hopeful thing in terms of where we can go in the future because of Bitcoin, because of the change in the incentive structures. That's like the, it's a really black pill, but it's like, oh, that's a really nice orange white pill after that.

So, and, you know, now we've got your, your backlight is amber, right? For when you read at night. And there was even better, but it's a, I've got, you know, right now I've got my little, my nighttime reading light that is it's red or, or amber. And it's, it's, it's very nice for reading my physical books. Is this a nice voice as a daylight like brand colors are like orange and then the tablet amber is orange, like it just that all lines up.

And you get back as blue, right? Which is the other color wheel. Like it's so fun. They're all blue, like just all of them. Did you put the brands? Did you put the Bitcoin white paper on the tablets as well? Is that one of the PDFs? That's awesome.

So like what Apple did before they removed it from everything for sad that they had to remove it, but glad you guys are bringing it back to be, to be on the, on that first screen, you know, when you're, when you're booting up the device and flipping through what's on there. It's like, Oh, Bitcoin white paper. And that's another great like, you know, amber pill to orange pill, I guess it's a new way of discovery there. So I think that's, that's beautiful.

Where should people go? Daylightcomputer.com is that it's.com. Yeah. Yeah. So you're. Yep. Yep. Okay. And anywhere else you want to, you want to send folks, I'll link your, your, your Twitter and your noster in the show notes, but any anywhere else or if not any, any last, last parting words of wisdom. Just Nostra or Twitter, just Daylightcom. You bet it's your. Yeah, we're almost completely sold out. So we have a little under 500 units left. We're hoping to get more. Wow.

We accept Bitcoin for payment and yeah, any collaborators, investors, people want to work for us like we're open to it all. So email us at hello at daylightcomputer.com. Because I think your audience is probably the, you know, the type of people that we're looking for. And that's what you've been hearing is the way the intentions become reality is you find the right investors, you find the right engineers, you find the right marketers. That's really about getting attention to the right people.

All right. Well, if you're listening right now and you think you're one of those right people, hit them up. That's, that's awesome. Well guys, thank you so much for sharing your scarce time for giving me your attention for this. This has been fascinating. Might, might have to have you guys on again. Cause I feel like there's, there's a lot of different rabbit holes and tangents we could, we could dive into.

And you know, maybe, maybe we'll have to do it in person at some point out, out in the sunlight. And, you know, we need to get, we need to get some more of that beautiful ball of fire in the sun on our, or in the sky on our skin during these interviews. I think it, it really warmed things up even more. So, but thank you guys so much. It's been awesome. Thank you for the thoughtful questions. This was super enjoyable. And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin Talk episode of the Bitcoin Podcast.

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