If you look at Bitcoiners, they keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. And as you understand what that means, then you apply all of your resources, all of your mind, all of it, how do we keep this decentralized and secure? What is coming next? What's building on top of it? And you move your time away from the extractive system to the cooperative system, and it's just starting. So why I love both of you guys, and so many of the beautiful minds in this, is that you are unbiable.
You are unbiable. You are building this, and it doesn't matter. Krocks are chooses to stay private. I'm public. It actually doesn't matter, but all of us matter, because we are Bitcoin. We're defending it. We're building the path forward. So it's used as a medium of exchange. We are the network. It is really interesting how we cooperate without being forced to fall into certain structure. It's very organic.
And what Jeff is saying about most people not realizing how profound this technology is, I would compare it to that whole shift with Copernicus, where you had a models where earth is the center of the universe, and then it's not even center of solar system. But we as humans, humans really are truth seeking machine, and we get born into certain systems and then spend our lifetime trying to get out of those systems towards a better one, like the one that we help build.
And you even now have people who look at money as a function of state, right? Well, us that are part of this revolution that Bitcoin is have realized that truth, that money should be separate from the state. And once that happens, we can really usher a new golden age. And it will be that size of a shift from earth is the center of universe towards a let's recognize first solar system, then galaxies, then everything else. And then we have a model that's much closer to the truth.
Greetings and salutations, my fellow plebs. My name is Walker, and this is the Bitcoin podcast. The Bitcoin time chain is 870121 and the value of one Bitcoin is still one Bitcoin. Two days episode is Bitcoin talk where I talk with my guests about Bitcoin and whatever else comes up. Today, we have two of my absolutely favorite people, Jeff Booth and my uncle Rockstar. This was an impromptu NoSter only live stream.
And if you want to watch the show live in the future, you can only do that on NoSter. It's also the first time Rockstar and Jeff have ever done a recorded conversation together. And I'm honestly honored that I was able to host it because I respect the heck out of both of these guys.
We get into a lot in this episode, including number go up versus freedom go up, the Bitcoin strategic reserve and whether or not that'll actually save fiat Bitcoin reprising the world inflation versus deflation open source development, how to start living in a Bitcoin world right now, life philosophy and a whole lot more.
Before we dive in, do me a favor and subscribe to the Bitcoin podcast wherever you're watching or listening, check out Bitcoin podcast net for episodes and additional resources, head to the show notes to grab a discount link for my sponsor, Bitbox or go directly to bitbox.swiss slash Walker and use the promo code Walker to get your 5% off the fully open source Bitcoin only Bitbox O2 hardware wallet. Send an email to hello at Bitcoin podcast net.
If you have feedback or if you're interested in sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast, and if you find this show valuable, consider giving it a zap on no stir or a boost on fountain to give value back. I really appreciate it. Without further ado, let's get into this Bitcoin talk with Jeff Booth and Uncle Rockstar. We are apparently live. I'm going to check the old zap.stream.
I'm still very much a newbie at this, but I think I'm slowly getting a little better, getting a little more comfortable on the live stream set up here. Luckily, zap.stream honestly makes it so dang easy. It's another beautiful no stir tool that I think is highly underutilized right now.
Jeff, I was just telling Walker that we really need to pump him up a little bit since he is a hub, communications hub for all of us on no stir and the way he does these streams that are no stir only and brings community together is great. You agree? Completely agree. Not only did he come up with the no stretch, but now he's leading the tariff and not stir almost so we're well done. You guys are going to make me blanched. Come on.
By the end of this episode, you will be all red, but I think it will be great when we have nature with Jeff, we have cyberspace with me. We have all the bases covered. It's perfect really. All right. I'm trying to blast this link out right now. Let's see. I may have just sent it a couple of times. We shall find out when I go here on the side. I did in fact blast it out a couple of times, but that's good. The more the merrier, right?
You know, I would have been kind of amazed because if you listened to the naysayers talk, you would believe that perhaps there weren't too many active people on no stir, but it is incredible. You can push out a link and we've got 14 people in here already. I have a feeling that number is going to swell significantly, but you know, the nostaches just like to, they like to have fun and they like to engage in nice conversations and Sarah
of Zap.Cooking, thank you for being such a regular listener to these streams. It's nice to have you here. And for anyone who hasn't checked out Zap.Cooking, it is awesome. You can find great recipes and post recipes and get Zapped Bitcoin for them. How wonderful is that? All right. Wonderful. And we just jumped up to 77 viewers like that. So that's super nice.
Well, guys, you know, we'll kind of, we'll go into this with a slow burn so that we don't say too many incredibly insightful things before more folks have joined, but it's a treat to have you both here. You were just saying backstage that while you guys have obviously talked many times, been on calls many times, this is the first recorded session of you two together, which is kind of amazing. You're a first walker.
Well, hey, you know, I think I knew I could, you know, tempt you both with the Noster only live stream. I figured it was a good carrot there. So yeah, it's funny because how close we are, right? And for a long time now, between Rockstar and I, and to first time doing a podcast together, it's fantastic.
Yeah, and for my side as well, because some of those conversations we had, Jeff, I do wish they were recorded because some of the lessons taken from, you know, hearing about your journey and the bats you took, bats you didn't take, they have been very impactful for me. But there is also the fact that I better know Walker, if you saw my message on the latest reply of Jeff, he posted on the whole paid in Bitcoin documentary. Did you see that one Walker? I did. I'm not seeing it.
Could you regale us? So Jeff is also one of those people that all the long form documentaries that come out with me and the work I'm doing in open source community and with BTC Pay server. He is a big promoter and then watches those documentaries, gives me feedback.
And I said in reply to his post about the latest one paid in Bitcoin, how he really is a pilloring community because I am very happy to be one of many that Jeff silently supports and again, those conversations mean a lot as you progress through this journey that Bitcoin is. So I'm actually really looking forward to, as I say, Jeff, like we had better conversations, there were great conclusions. Now this one is public. So let's see how this one goes.
And if we manage to make few moments for people watching this. And I wanted to, it felt like a good day to have this kind of a conversation because obviously Bitcoin is pumping right now. We have a lot of NGU at the moment. I don't think to anyone, like not to anyone's surprise really, right? This is all kind of expected to happen. But whenever it does happen, I haven't been around that long. This is really just, so this will be the fourth year like since 2020 I started.
So I really haven't even gotten a full cycle. Like I don't know the feeling of these things, but I mean, it feels pretty good. I think a lot of people who started stacking around, you know, 2021, 2020 like myself or 2022, anytime since 2020, you're starting to feel pretty great, right? A bit euphoric, like, ah, you know, see, yes, you know, I was right. Yes, this feels so good after a long bear market.
But at the same time, I think it's an important time to also reflect on, let's say, the larger context of things and not just the, you know, the number go up, but the freedom go up. And the fact that, yes, this is great to see, you know, there's a lot of hype around Bitcoin strategic reserve around, you know, nation state competition for it, all these things.
But there's also a lot of projects that are happening, perhaps that don't get nearly this sort of attention as a tweet about, you know, breaking a new nation state is going to announce a Bitcoin strategy in the next, you know, next 48 hours, it doesn't get quite the same hype. And so I wanted to bring you guys here to just kind of, to give a little perspective.
And I mean, maybe a, maybe a good place to start off is just kind of the question around, ah, number go out, you know, FGU, freedom go up versus NGU number go up. Do you think that it's, that the number go up leads to the freedom go up? As in, does the, the store of value increasing, you know, does that narrative strengthening lead ultimately to more freedom go up?
Does it lead to a stronger network, which then allows Bitcoin to stay decentralized and secure, which ultimately allows for more incredible things to be built on top of it? Or is there a risk of the number go up? Vibe, let's say, clouding the potential of some of the incredible freedom tech that's being built on top of this, or even moving us more towards potentially captured, captured instances of coins, let's say, if that makes sense. Do you want to take that first, sir?
Sure. I even recently was on Twitter Spaces for a Bitcoin conference in Mina, and really excited for, for that event. You're coming as well, Jeff, right? I am. Yeah. So we will have some times together, but I said that for me, it was always about freedom go up because if Bitcoin ends up being another way for rich to get richer, then we have failed from my point of view. And it's all about reforming money and separating it from the state.
And I think we're doing pretty good job when it comes to that because you look at the real value in Bitcoin is connections that you make and these small communities that we establish where you can discuss and work on topics that are extremely important for the future with way less noise. If there was no Bitcoin, I wouldn't be connected with, if I wouldn't be connected with you, Walker, and then I wouldn't be on Oster.
And what I always now see on Oster is the posts that I make, they may not have as much likes and retweets or reposts now that they're called on X, but conversation that happens there is way more engaging, way more genuine. It's away from the mainstream narrative that you see on X and other like, oh, who will President Trump select in his cabinet and that type of discussions. So for me, it's definitely always about freedom go up. And I think we will be successful, but it also depends on us.
All of us that Bitcoin has empowered over the last decade plus, what is it that we will do? And that's the main question for me. Yeah, so I'm going to try to tackle this. So Bitcoin is the most important discovery that humans have ever discovered up to now. That could easily, if somebody doesn't understand it deep enough, it could sound like no way we can. So people do understand it, understand why. And the why is this at least in my fractal view of what's happening.
We've always, for 5000 years, we've always lived in an extractive economy. We would invade other lands to be able to steal their gold or resources and slave other people. And if we had the biggest army, we could do that and get away with it. And so the world always looked like that.
Some never sat some, the British Empire was that we would go to war over and over as that would break down throughout history to be able to reset all financial systems to essentially be able to get through money to be able to impose our rules on other people. So that has led to everything that we take for granted today. This also led to some of the positives that we take for granted today.
And the winners of those wars and the winners of those systems have created, at least in the early stages of that before it breaks down, they've created everything we take for granted. So that system now, we do that extraction through a monetary system. And that if you're closer to the top of that extraction, you're winning. Or the truth is, you're actually not really winning because your soul is being destroyed by it because it's based on extraction.
But you think you're winning versus a whole bunch of other people who are losing. And so most people on the planet today don't know that they're living from within that system. And Bitcoin changes that to a system of cooperation. And it imposes cooperation. As you go deeper and deeper in Bitcoin, what people feel in Bitcoin, the closeness and them changing is a system based on cooperation that every single person wins by more people entering.
Now, most people don't know what I just described there. So the world's always been deflationary. That means the free market has always been deflationary. And that means everything we do trading with each other all over the world should flow to 8 billion people. But we've never had a vehicle to allow it to flow to 8 billion people. And why? Because money is superordinate to laws. And if you could control money, you control everything else.
And if you could control money and you had a million people on your system, then you steal from a million people slowly. If you control money and you have 8 billion people on your system, you're stealing from 8 billion people at different rates around the world. And so Bitcoin doesn't care that I'm here. It rock stars here. Every 10 minutes, it's imposing.
I'd actually, in fact, one of the things that I think about is for people who are so far out of touch, they're living in the matrix that's extracting from them. Instead of saying Bitcoin, just say, what would a decentralized code, a secure protocol that you couldn't change, that couldn't be co-opted, that was bounded by energy look like?
And if you're in one system measuring from the system where all of the productivity gains are flowing to, through 8 billion people eventually moving to the system, it looks like something you can't even explain. It's very hard for me to even explain what that looks like because it means all the 7.5 billion people that are trapped in an extracted system and they're slaves to it, we unlock their minds and deflation is faster in service of all of us. It's still big a deal.
But as you enter Bitcoin, I kind of think of myself entering and I sent a thank you note to all the cryptographers and all of the people who knew this way before me and who were fighting this way before me knowing how important this was. Now I'm not just thinking Satoshi. I'm thinking all of the people who came up with shots on that that failed, that then inspired Satoshi to create the thing that freed all of us.
So I'm talking about all of the human parts and that's actually why I'm so bullish on where we're going on this because as you go down those rabbit hole, if you start as a trader or in shit coins or whatever fractal you're looking through your world from, as you go deeper and deeper and some people say stuck in at a level for a long time, they get burned, they get rug pulled in something for a long time because they're still playing the rules of the other game.
But this is a game based on cooperation and as you go deeper and deeper and you understand the magnitude of what that is, you never will go back. And once you're never go up a step, if you look at Bitcoiners, they keep going deeper and deeper and deeper and as you understand what that means, then you apply all of your resources, all of your mind, all of it, how do we keep this decentralized and secure? What is coming next? What's building on top of it?
And you move your time away from the extractive system to the cooperative system and it's just starting. So why I love both of you guys and so many of the beautiful minds in this is they are unbiable. You are unbiable. You are building this and it doesn't matter. Krocks are chooses to stay a NIM or private. I'm public. It actually doesn't matter but all of us matter because we are Bitcoin. We're defending it. We're building the path forward. So it's used as their name of exchange.
We are the network. If you like everything open source, then you need to go to bitbox.swiss.walker and use the promo code Walker for 5% off the fully open source. Easy to use Bitcoin only, Bitbox 02 hardware wallet. Then get your Bitcoin off the exchange and into your own self-custody. The fiat value of Bitcoin is absolutely ripping and soon your stack will be worth a heck of a lot more in that fiat value than it is today.
So now is the perfect time to make sure you have your security locked down tight with a bitbox. And I really cannot emphasize this enough but the Bitbox 02 is easy as hell to use. Whether you're brand new to Bitcoin, it's your first time setting up a hardware wallet and you're understandably a little bit nervous or you are a well-seasoned psychopath. Again, the Bitbox 02 is Bitcoin only and it is fully open source. You can go to their GitHub and verify that for yourself.
There's no need to trust me or trust Bitbox. When you go to bitbox.swiss.walker and use the promo code Walker, not only do you get 5% off, but you also help support this podcast. So seriously, thank you. Yeah, if I can expand on that, it is really interesting how we cooperate without being forced to fall into certain structure. It's very organic.
And what Jeff is saying about most people not realizing how profound this technology is, I would compare it to that whole shift with Copernicus where you had a models where Earth is the center of the universe and then it's not even center or solar system. But humans really are a true seeking machine and we get born into certain systems and then spend our lifetime trying to get out of those systems towards a better one, like the one that we help build.
You even now have people who look at money as a function of state, right? While us that are part of this revolution that Bitcoin is have realized that truth that money should be separate from the state. And once that happens, we can really usher a new golden age and it will be that size of a shift from Earth is a center of universe towards a let's recognize first solar system, then galaxies, then everything else. And then we have a model that's much closer to the truth.
Yeah, Rux, just playing on that. The printing press was created out of somebody's brain unlocked an ability to share information and error correct on that information. So somebody would say something and then everyone else would error correct it. And that truth got better and we saw things, we found things and that only unlocked a tiny fragment of humanity.
And that tiny fragment that it unlocked, call it 500 million people, created everything that you've seen in the last, call it 300 years and the rate of progress and 400 million years and the rate of progress that created the age of enlightenment that created all of these things that then are being lost again because of broken money, because it consolidates to very few people making the decisions. And we are about to break that open to 8 billion people. And it doesn't take but we're not waiting.
My life looks like I just described, I'm living that life every day and nobody has to wait. It's an open network. You just have to move your time away from the extractive system to the cooperative one and you're a part of the new network. You know, Jeff, something you mentioned earlier and by the way, it's great talking with you too because I love that you can riff back and forth and I can just sit back and drink from the fountain of both of your wisdom.
But you mentioned something earlier about Bitcoiners can't be bought, right? Once you're deep enough down that path, you can't really be bought. And I think there's multiple facets to that, which is the, okay, maybe ideologically, like in terms of your ethos, you've reached a point where you won't allow yourself to be bought. But economically also, you are less susceptible to, let's say, the whims of fiat being thrown in your face because you have a better way to store your economic energy.
And I'm just kind of curious because you also mentioned, okay, moving your time towards this system, moving your energy toward it. I think it's really difficult for a lot of people who are still stuck in this fiat mentality of I'm on this hamster wheel and I've just got to keep running a little bit faster and then I can catch a breather, then I can start to think, I think it's really hard for them to take a step back understandably so and to say, okay, wow. I can make a change.
I can actually just do this. American hodl, hodl, I'll call him hodl because that's his preferred name. But American hodl was saying the other day, he's like, you can just go out and do things. You can just do shit. You don't have to ask for permission. You don't have to wait. But how do you actually, I mean, is that just a choice everybody needs to make for themselves? Is it something that we as Bitcoiners have any sort of say in helping people along?
I think a lot of Bitcoiners, when you get far enough down the rabbit hole, you sort of get tired of trying to orange pill people quote and being rejected time and time again when you're just trying to give them good information. Do people just need to realize that another system exists and then it's up to them? Or is there something Bitcoiners can do to push them? Or does it have to be, let's say, do they have to push themselves? Do they have to run toward it?
Is there just nothing we can do besides try to live our lives and be an example for how things can be different? I'll riff on that for a second. If you walk down the street and you saw love in every single person around you, you saw genuine love, you just said that was your perspective. And somebody else walked down the street and saw fear every year around you. Would you be living two different experiences?
Their experience with us just as true for them as yours would be for you and you would see two different worlds manifest out of that thought. So if that's true and we know that's true, then the world is actually not as we think it is. It's a mirror of our version of the world. And everybody's mirror is different. If you had your mirror of the world, even though it's true for you and you go and impose your mirror on somebody else, it doesn't work. It never works. It pushes that person away.
The only way you can, but if you just stand in your own power, your own genius and are listening and looking at the world and just feeding that is, am I living my most integral life? Not worrying about what other people do. I think at least people are inspired by that and they start to wonder why. Because when people say orange pill, for me, when somebody says I'm orange pilling somebody, that's an evil thing. I want to be the person who changed that. I want to be the person who matters to them.
And if you just think about this path, I could never name all of the people who were responsible to orange pill me because I don't even know when I saw it, how I saw everything else. But I'm like, I have the most gratitude for a bunch of people who contributed to this network that I could never thank personally. I think that's a very well said. Rockstar, did you want to jump in there too?
Yeah, I wanted to jump in and say that it's very interesting that we're following up the episode with American Hodel and Eric Cason, where you have Eric Cason ranting and yelling at dumbasses who if only you listened to Bitcoiners, he would be twice as rich in a week. And I love Eric. He's one of my favorite people and my brother. But that was a tough love episode.
And now you have this love episode with me and Jeff that we'll go with like, yeah, this is one of the things I would credit Jeff with is he made me realize that it's all about not even persuading people, but living the best version of your own life. And then if people come to you and ask, Hey, how come you as a developer have accomplished this because looking back at what now 15 years? I am, any immigrant developer to US can emulate my journey.
It's just I can tell those little moments or paths that I have taken and speak from experience of what does it take to come to the point where you're like, okay, I have achieved my American dream and I get to be free and then also what comes after that? Because when we again talk about people that are trapped in fiat system, I don't even lately I've been thinking a lot about it and I don't even see that that's that malicious.
It's more that we do not have technology to really like we didn't have technology to really support people because fiat banking was something that was as Bitcoin invented and it served to a certain point.
But now we have a better technology and we should move to better technology so that we can service and help more people because as population is growing, also complexity increases and we need to have better technology, better connections, better ways of communicating with each other, serving each other. Imagine this podcast in Old World where we all need to come to a studio and my people talk with your people is just so much harder to organize and look at us. We are organized like this.
We're streaming on Nostra. People are zapping. People are zapping people talking all together. So it's just a matter of better technology and then as Jeff says, remove as much ego as you can and focus on getting to the truth because to me that's really what we are here for as conscious creatures. Yeah, Jeff. Yeah, I think by the way, I'm just picking up. I'm not what you just said, Mark.
I think by imposing the system of honesty on the world, and I don't look at it as technology, I look at it as protocol. The reason why I say protocol is there isn't another technology that can beat this. It's a protocol and protocols win everything. Protocols build in layers, but there's still tons of people stuck trying to trade around shitcoins that are going to zero because they think of it as technology.
This is a protocol that is imposing an energy-based decentralized secure system on the world. If you're pricing from that energy-based decentralized secure system on the world, all prices are falling forever. If you're converting that to a piece of paper, you'll think Bitcoin's going up and all prices are going up. It's just a matter of objective. It's just a matter of perspective, which version that you're seeing.
That version will be true for you, but the problem with the version of the price going up is it centralizes Bitcoin in layer two. It has to centralize Bitcoin in layer two because we've always, for 5,000 years, lived in an extractive system where we think prices are naturally going up and they're not.
In other words, if that has always happened, and there's many people before us who also knew but they couldn't stop it, then our incentives around a system that is stealing from us to steal from us must be really high. We will naturally fall into that trap. If we fall into that trap, and I've said this many times, I just think it should become a meme. If Bitcoin is not a meaning of exchange, it fails as a store value period. It also fails as freedom check.
It also fails as everything else because the centralized system that we make stronger through our actions of trying to price Bitcoin in the centralized system, the Fiat, is extracting wealth at an exponential rate to stop the deflation. If we are part of that, then Bitcoin will fail. It's inevitable. It won't fail. Now I'm going to stop there. It won't fail because there's too many people who already know what I just described.
If you are spending my time there all the time, wealth startles too, and if you see what's coming to make it easier and interoperable across these things to make them experience the medium of the shown, you understand how many people are doing that. Now, fast, fast is growing. You're not really worried about that risk. For people that aren't as deep as this, that is the risk. Every currency forever has always failed for the same reason. We better be smarter this time.
Jeff, I want to get into with both of you guys some of the things because you are both extremely tapped into this in terms of what stuff is really cool freedom tech that is being built and either with Rockstar literally writing the code or you yourself funding all these incredible initiatives you guys are as tapped in as anyone.
Before we get into that, I do want to ask something just about we've heard all this Bitcoin strategic reserve talk and you're mentioning every fiat currency always fails. A question that I struggle with is because yes, I agree. That is an objective fact. Every fiat currency always fails.
Now, going forward, if the US or any other country that currently prints its own fiat starts accumulating Bitcoin, starts accumulating a strategic reserve stockpile, whatever you want to call it, does that potentially prevent that currency from failing? Does it give it enough of a either a check on its unmitigated printing? Does it give it enough of a backstop? Does it somehow, does it ever stop a currency from failing or will the currency fail no matter what?
And it's just a question of slowing down its death a little bit. Do you think that this whole idea of these strategic reserves is actually going to end up prolonging the life of these fiat that would have died sooner of natural causes? Or is there a different outcome that you see even with the adoption of these strategic reserves? What do you think of both of you think on this? Because it's something I've been thinking about a lot and I don't really have a good answer for that.
Well, I can add my perspective there also adding to what Jeff was saying. To me, it's all about that level of freedom that you have. If you're focused on number go up, that's just another form of slavery and chains. Like if you're now glued to the screen and looking at the price of Bitcoin going up or then looking at the price of micro strategy stock going up, you can't do anything productive with your day.
That's why I always insist with people that like stacking sets and staying humble, DCA, that's what it's about. Then you allow that to be your segue into this community and doing the work within this community. To answer your question on strategic stockpile, I do see it that way.
If you look at what happened with El Salvador, where now they ended up with a balanced budget, I do think Bitcoin has that way like you get invested in something that's closer to the truth and then you're incentivized to align yourself and the way you live with the best possible version that you can find and align with. I honestly welcome those reserves and I think they're necessary also for the transition in the future.
When you say like fiat currencies are going to die or disappear or like that would in my view lead to chaos. Actually we have Bitcoin to enable that transition, so I just see that it will be a gradual switch and the longer we have to switch to Bitcoin standard and cooperative system rather than system that exploits people, the better we will be. This is a really tough and nuanced question because there is no direct answer to countries that go first will be richer than countries that go later.
If those countries that go first then tried to consolidate Bitcoin and then close this and everybody operated on top of the fiat instrument on top of Bitcoin if they were transacting on that then those countries would be in the center to root price Bitcoin and to keep operating their power because they had so much of the Bitcoin and there would be a whole incentive model that would create, let's do this, that would still be inflationary.
Because of that it would still eventually break and it would not be the free market. The only way that you could keep that going would be to remove individual rights and freedoms to continue it. I actually think right now that's what's happening at a higher level of obstruction. Jeff was making too much sense so they removed his internet connection. Can you hear me? Am I back?
Yeah, so I think what's happening at a higher level of obstruction is you have a whole bunch of technocrats that know what I'm talking about. Free market is deflation, Mary and Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and all of these people that know this against the globalists and the technocrats just won with Trump.
And it's now consolidating because if Elon Musk knows that the free market is deflationary and he seems to and if you A16s add and a whole bunch of other people that talk about this all the time, they're using my work to be able to talk about this. And those people also are investing in shitcoins and not all in on Bitcoin. And what does it tell you? Like it's pretty obvious. It's either one of two things.
They know and they're using kind of fake freedom to centralize faster on their version of control or they don't know. And I suspect Elon's smart enough to know. And so when I find a whole bunch of people now creating new heroes that are just faster centralization and talking about those heroes of saving their lives through a different form of centralization, it feels like the same old trick that's been played before on humans over and over and over again.
And there's too many people that are wise to it. Bitcoin doesn't care. So if they do that, Bitcoin will reprice all of them too. Does that make sense? I think no, it does make sense. Because again, you know, it's interesting to look at, okay, El Salvador, you brought it up. They're an interesting example because they of course don't print their own fiat currency.
In the US now, Jeff, as you mentioned, where we very much do print the world reserve currency, you do have a lot of technocrats who have gotten now into higher positions. Now on the one hand, you look at that and you say, well, you know, I'd rather have these technocrats than the, you know, career bureaucrats, at least these guys, you know, know how to run a business.
Granted, they're running a lot of those businesses off of massive government subsidies, etc. But okay, maybe that's at least a change in the right direction. But at the same time, you see the behavior of them. Jeff, I think this is what you're keying on here is that, look at not just what they say, look at what they do and look at where their money is. And you know, the A16Zs of the world are a great example of that. But I'm curious to see what happens next.
If the US actually in other countries do start trying to print fiat for any nation that can print their own fiat to acquire Bitcoin, because that starts to get very interesting. Now, you know, I don't want to spend too much time on the, again, the NGU nation state adoption side because while I find it interesting, and I think it's a natural consequence, it's something that was always going to happen with Bitcoin. The question was just when and how quickly.
What I want to talk to you guys a little bit about now, if you're game for it is just kind of some of the things you are seeing, some of the things that you are building or helping to build that you're working with, some of these projects that are actually delivering those solutions that allow Bitcoin to be used as a medium of exchange, whether that be, you know, making layer one easier, whether that be layer two and, you know, let's say
layer three, I'm not sure Jeff, where you would classify FETI in terms of layers. I think that's, you know, it could go either way there. But maybe, Jeff, I think what you've said about Bitcoin needs to be a medium of exchange, not just a store of value for it to actually win, I think is very important. And it's a part of the discussion that sometimes gets lost, especially when Bitcoin is pumping, everybody's feeling like, you know, they're new rich.
And it's like, well, come on, let's just focus on the, you know, the store of value NGU for now. But the medium of exchange is the freedom go upside, that is the FGU, like that's what allows you to make sure that you can still use Bitcoin in such a way that nobody can stop you from doing it, that it's not controlled in these massive honeypots.
So can you guys talk a little bit about, you know, and maybe rockstarks, I know people were asking about the documentary, they were asking about some of the work you've been doing recently. Can you talk a little bit about how you look at that and kind of what, I guess maybe more so what your mentality is with this kind of medium of exchange versus store of value as somebody who has been actively developing and committing code in the space for a lot longer than I've even been aware of Bitcoin.
No, I mean, for me, sats must flow. That's it. We must be able to send Bitcoin between individuals across the world. Because what Jeff was saying, the way that I understand it is there are so many Jeff boots around the world. There are so many rock stars, but they, the only difference between maybe those people at us is that proximity to money printer that we managed to establish over the course of our life.
And then the work that we were able to do because Jeff before investing, you were very active entrepreneur. And it's where could you do that work? Like what was the market you were servicing? The main reason why I immigrated to US was that understanding that the closer I am to Silicon Valley, the better I will do. I can do the same work. It's just who are the people that I know? And can I work with this group of people versus that group of people?
And then the other big problem for me was it was easier to immigrate to US than actually receive money in the country I was because of all the financial regulation, how you do remittances, how do you report them to local authorities, then you receive $1,000 wired in your bank account, you need to explain what it is for, are you foreign spy, what are you, why are you receiving this money from outside? So that's really where I bring up medium of exchange.
This must flow between us and we must be able to transmit value to other individuals and free them from whatever are the chains that they're in because you look at BTC Pay server as a project, numerous crowd funds. There is one that's active right now that's happening for Palestine where people are sending Bitcoin and that Bitcoin is being turned into meals for people or medical help for people.
We had another crowd funded used BTC Pay server for Ansar in Nigeria where they were fighting back feminist coalition was fighting back against police brutality. And if you transmitted money over banks, that money was frozen, then they brought up BTC Pay server instance crowd fund campaign and raised over $2 million that then allowed them resources to push back against the oppression they were experiencing. So medium of exchange, yeah, definitely.
I've been on a little mission during last year where if it's a Bitcoin conference, it has to accept Bitcoin payments working on, you know, bolt cards, lightning. So excited about all of that. And yeah, there we go. Free Ross. Thank you for this awesome bulk. I don't know if people can see this on the stream, but it's got an amazing laser eyes thing there that when you tap the NFC, that's pretty incredible. I have the Trump one too right next to it, you know, just for safe keeping.
Just to keep him on is that he, you know, holds his promise to free Ross. Day one, right? I think we're all that's going to be the easiest way to test whether or not he plans on keeping other campaign promises because this is a very low effort one for him to keep a presidential pardon is like that. So day one or GTFO, you know, but, but, you know, Jeff, I'm curious to from your perspective because you and you and I have talked a lot about a lot about FETI. I've talked with OB as well.
And I think that this is another one of those things. That's approaching it from a different layer, right? And I think with a different type of solution than BDC pay server, which like Rockstar, that's incredible how much they raised also. And I think was it Gladstein who said, you know, Bitcoin reaches people where fiat cannot. And I think that's such an important thing that Bitcoin allows you to get money to places where literally you can't, you have no other way of getting it there.
The fiat rails do not allow it. It is, you know, it is forbidden or it is banned, whatever it might be, but these people can't get money any other way. And Jeff, I think what you guys at EgoDeath through the financing of FETI are doing is really incredible. Could you talk about that a little bit and just why you think that that is such an important thing, especially at this time?
Yeah. So I'm going to take it broader than just FETI, but because how things evolved and how things naturally evolve and why people miss them and evolving. So if you take that to lightning or lightning and liquid as an example, then lightning and liquid early on integration, let's go back a step. First the only thing you could do in Bitcoin is hold it. You go pre-2017, you just held it. And what would that do?
In a market that you were getting rich by holding it or you were getting rich through what the world was showing by holding it and it was the only thing that could do that, what would it naturally do in the market? A whole bunch of other people would have new ideas to have a better Bitcoin. It would be just natural. And people would be so confused by that and they would be so confused about technology versus protocol and what we're talking about.
They would race to all these other things and they would be easily fooled through the next height in the scene over and over and over and they'd be willing participants, willing to take their money to be able to do that. And I'm saying that that's all bad. Inside that there were some good, trying to be good actors that misunderstood technology as well or protocol versus technology as well and tried to improve upon Bitcoin in a different way, let's use privacy as an example.
Privacy plans, knowing full well if you had a decentralized and secure that was open, that if a state saw that, that eventually they would attack those people. Which would be very important to be able to solve. It's just the way, where you solve it. If you sacrifice decentralization, security for privacy would then only fail. Because little members can be built in layers. They also did, and enlightening as an example, you couldn't use it as Bitcoin as a medium of exchange.
And you could actually even, I don't so much, but you could forgive the people that said big blocks and the risk of centralization because they also knew that it needed to be an exchange and it could need to do more than five to seven transactions a second. So you could be on one side or the other, you could either say, you're all terrible, you're all terrible people, we were right.
Or there was a piece of the nuance in the question, in the thing, and it was just the way it was solved that needed to be built in layers. That makes sense? So now, and now lightning comes out, liquid comes out, a whole bunch of different tries on the base layer to integrate that into a payment layer with a different trade off that was way more safe and secure for everybody because it used decentralization and security into a different layer of trade off. Who would that look like at first?
What would look like as a hobby network, a whole bunch of cryptographers who understood that coin deeply and wanted to do it themselves, and then what would that look like to the market? That would look like lightning not always working because you'd have these channel locks. And then the market would say, this doesn't work. Let's build a different L2 that we centralized and it'll look.
So it would be just totally natural as all of the entrepreneurs are building better and deeper and deeper talking layer to be able to resolve that problem onto the second layer. And so we're Bitcoin transactions right now on lightning and liquid. They're approaching 90 to 95% on O and B is it's 90 to 95%. And payments need to work 99.999% and then they flip everything. So you have an extractive system that charges between 2% and 4% in the US for every transaction anybody ever does.
It's a sucking sound out of all of, not just the inflation, but you have another tax through all of the centralized organizations that are mandated to steal from you. And then you have a different system that is approaching now a rate that you can move that moves instead of getting paying for transactions, you could get paid for transactions. So the incentives are about to flip. And the incentives, where do the incentives for the first flip?
They first flip in places that are furthest away from the monopoly, like Rockstar was just saying, right, that need this technology, this freedom tax so desperately, because they're paying a way higher rate. And if they don't have it, they're going to be killed. So they're going to use this and you're not going to stop this. It's exploding. It's exploding. It's such a high rate that people don't know, because they're measuring it in the US and how fast it's exploding.
And then you carry that into FETI and what they're doing. And it's still very early. It's hard to set up your own federation, but we've already resolved the challenge of essentially free banking for the world. Everybody can be their own bank on FETI. And then in that bank, you have complete privacy and nobody who's even running the federation can see anything that you're doing.
So these pieces of technology are so powerful and they build and then other pieces of what simple proof is doing, what simple proof did in the Guatemalan elections. They had a county in the US that used simple proof to have election integrity. Just now, it was extraordinarily successful. So that's going to move into, and Rockstar already said this, the truth is being set free around the world. It was early in that cycle, but all of this technology that builds back on top of it and all moves.
And because these are pieces of protocols, they're not owned by a company that then is going to impose their tax on everybody. They're interoperable and the speed of development expands. And then what's possible expands by opening up Nostra, FETI, BTC Pacer, all of these interoperable pieces together create some entrepreneurs going to say, I can use all of this stuff. I don't have to build a development team to use all of this. It's all just native.
And I can create something that creates tons of value for a new market out of this without any cost. Just move in. Yeah. And as someone that's outside of FETI, if I can also approach it a little bit more technically, what's most impressive for me is that it's a multi-sig in which you participate with your key. And what Jeff was saying about communities, I just imagine these little nodes around the world where people group up together.
Okay, I am a key in multi-sig and the Bitcoin that I'm holding and just I have HODL as a use case. But now if I join it with other people's Bitcoin and we create a hub, a node, a multi-sig in which we all participate, suddenly we can do payments. We can do remittances. We can do community chat hub. From that hub, one of the best use cases for me of FETI was during Bitcoin Atlantis. There was a federation and if you joined that federation, you could receive sats in that federation.
You can use sats from that federation to zap people on Aster. Suddenly it's a hub that provides services and to me, yeah, that's the biggest promise of FETI is like you give technology to empower individuals and allow them to do things that they individually couldn't do. Just Madira, if you're speaking about, we were all there. We were all there in March. In March, there were I think 26 companies in Madira using Bitcoin, accepting Bitcoin.
And that was up because you had a ground spell, kind of a ground game, kind of anticipates into the conference. So many companies now when I was there last week, 134. It's only been six, seven months. It's exploding. People are, and so you have, and this is being used every day, it's being used more and more businesses, more and more people are using it. It's remarkable to watch. And how did that happen?
What happened from a person in Madira, Andre, reaching out to say, hey, I want to bring Bitcoin to Madira. I think it's important for my country. And through that conversation with president, conversation with me, conversation with all of many of us here to be able to start this and kick this off.
And now if you look at what Andre has done and out what he's doing and the number of Bitcoiners who have moved there and the different things, sovereign engineering, what's coming out of sovereign engineering would blow your mind. I just spent a day with a cohort on their demo there. And some of this stuff is really, it's probably not the right time to be able to announce it right now and some of this stuff.
And it's all introvert with these protocols that I described, and it makes everything easier and easier and easier. And so it's just, it's just so it's when you're in the systems, you want to spend more time in the system. And so you see when you see what's coming, you just really inspired all of these people building. Yeah. And it comes so suddenly. I don't know, Walker. I'm curious about this.
How much do you think BTC based server, like all the different instances we have around the world have processed in USD volume in the last seven years? Man, you're putting me on the spot with a prediction there. Yeah. Well, I guess not a prediction, just a guess. I'm going to guess, I mean, it's, you've already told me just one instance of a fund raise was 2 million. I'm going to guess it's another order of magnitude or probably three or I'm going to guess, are you in the hundreds? Billions?
How much are we talking here? I don't want to make a jackass of myself, Roxas. Save me the embarrassment, please. No, well, those watching, yeah, they can reference this conversation maybe in a couple of weeks when one of our case study comes out. But we have had numerous case studies that would show tens of millions of dollars in volume.
So what Jeff is saying about, it's crazy for me even as someone that has been part of the project for the last seven years to see all that volume, like all that economic energy that would otherwise need to, like, wouldn't happen or would happen in a lesser degree if there wasn't technology like BTC Pay Service. So yeah, the best part of it is also, like I say, we don't know. We don't collect the data.
But my guess to also add to your guess, and then we can both look like jackasses, I would say over a billion, like, billions of dollars at this point. And yeah, watch the BTC Pay Server account. We will do some announcements on that front. That's incredible. That's mind-blowing. But just from the perspective of, like, it also shows how early we are. That's a huge number. But that's also, like, a small number in terms of what it's going to process in the next 10 years, right?
Or it's been around for seven years, but it's going to process in the next seven years. I think it's going to dwarf it because, I mean, what I love about the time I spend with Bitcoiners is you realize that there are so many things going on behind the scenes that you can't possibly pay attention to all of them as the average Bitcoin or even as the average Bitcoin podcast host.
You just purely, like, even just look at Nostar alone, you could spend all day every day just trying to keep up with all the projects that are being built on there and still not even come close to scratching the surface, right?
But I think that's kind of this power of open source and of building on protocols is that it allows for a pace of development and a widespread, not in any way centrally organized level of development that ultimately is just so much more efficient in terms of figuring out what the market actually wants than any centralized entity can be.
Like, the centralized entity is going to have a head start because they've got the marketing budget, they've got the manpower, they've got the cheap fiat that they, you know, got at a really nice interest rate. But they don't have the collective intelligence of anyone out there in the world who wants to work on their thing, being able to work on it because it is closed source. And so I'm curious if you guys kind of think like where we're, it's very easy.
I think if you look at just the NGU side of things, for people who are maybe just coming into this space, just getting themselves acquainted to say, oh, maybe I've missed the boat. Like this is, this thing's already worth almost $100,000 per coin. You know, I think we all agree that it's going to go a lot higher from there. But that's just barely even scratching the surface of everything else that's happening behind the scenes.
And Jeff, to your point about when you have this whole decentralized, I don't even want to call it an organization, you've got individuals around the world who are actively working in their own little areas to make things better, to make new products, to create new solutions for people based on actual problems in the real world that they want to solve, often for their own communities, whether digital or, you know, physical communities.
You know, I mean, do you think that we're like in terms of just general adoption awareness, it seems that we're like, we have not even gotten close to crossing the chasm yet, as they say. We're, is that fair to say? We are not close. You could, so I believe that most people, even they were hardcore Bitcoiners, are pricing Bitcoin from the Fiat instrument in number go up as a potential as an asset within the Fiat system. What I'm saying is it is not an asset within the Fiat system.
It is a base level protocol that is repricing the entire Fiat system. Now, if you wanted to trade it as an asset and you think it's going to, then you'll likely trade it for Fiat at some point. You'll buy houses with Fiat at some point and everybody should do whatever they want, right? Because that's what the free market is. And they will, and what that means is this will get distributed further and further and will be centralized further and more and more people are picking up stocks.
And then, but in time, if I am right, if this stays decentralized and secure, this is not an asset within the Fiat system. It is a repricing of the entire Fiat experiment globally. Everything, and by the way, in that world, why this is, I'm going to want to touch on something that you should touch on people's little question. But in that world, prices fall forever and the free market is crazy competitive because you have to give value to somebody else to stay in business.
And while there's money, while there's margin in what you have, everybody attacks you and the margin comes down. So you have to, it's not just I have to give value once, I have to give value forever. If I give value once, then I can attract some more capital, I get more Bitcoin on my balance sheet. But if I stay there, if I only stay there, and I don't continue to innovate value for others, then my company is going to fail and be replaced as somebody who does.
It is you're competing with 8 billion people on the planet. All of their ideas every day and today you're not competing with 8 billion people because most people don't know, but you will be competing with 8 billion people. And that means you're going to have an acceleration of the inflation. You're going to have a staggering acceleration because as it just merges with AI and everything else we're doing is staggering. And the only place you could measure that is from the energy based protocol.
We've only ever in the history of humans, we've only found one thing that we will sacrifice our own best interest or not only for our own best interest, we will trade with somebody we don't like. And we'll both win from that trade. That's called the free market. And so Bitcoin is the only thing we've ever seen that is the true free market. And most people are pricing that new free market from the old system. But what does that mean? So now how are you funding it?
There's two different types of models. Open source, which is actually funding from the centralized system because the money has to come from somewhere. So you have to say, somebody is, I need a benefactor to be able to constant and maybe Jack because he's such a really great person in the space is always a benefactor, but it couldn't be a benefactor unless he had a company was extracting money. It wouldn't work.
So when you say open source, because open source developers, they need to get paid too. They have families and such too. So where does the money come from? It has to aggregate. It has to come from somewhere. So you have this model right now, which is open source, and there's some really great people funding that. But you can't count on that forever. Because if you were an open source developer, then that went away. What do you do? So it's hard to...
So you have to create real value in the framework and you have to constantly create real value in the framework to be able to gather. That's what's happening right now. And the people who are creating value are winning because they're adding that Bitcoin to the balance sheet. And it doesn't even need to be a lot of Bitcoin to the balance sheet because Bitcoin is repricing the existing via system at what 45% to 50% IRR. So that's the real rate of return in the world.
That is the bounded by energy rate of return in the world. That means any investment that is under that is losing value to the risk-free rate of return. Now how do you beat that? You deliver value on top of it and you collect sales on top of it. It doesn't even need to be a lot. You could have a one person company creating 10,000 sats a month and in time that's going to be a massive number. Yeah, you can be an account. I'm curious if you're... Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
You can be an account on Nostrand as long as you generate 10,000 sats a month. You will be in good position. Yeah, I would offer a little different perspective of what Jeff is saying because it absolutely is true. We've made so many improvements in every possible way and then the value produced by those improvements in technology and organization in our work has just been captured by Cantalon Effect and those that were closest to Money Printer.
Suddenly we have this new system that's repricing everything. It's also what I love about Bitcoin, one side effect is that it's drawing the speculation out of assets like real estate. I just hope that continues because it will help with housing prices and then stock market as well. It's an ultimate shitcoin casino. The people that want to speculate, come on over to 24-7 market that Bitcoin is and speculate on whatever is current rate of Bitcoin repricing the world. Do that.
The rest of us, we can focus on building and benefiting from all the activity that's happening when it comes to day trading. For us, the focus is on the mission because when you look at people in Bitcoin and open source projects, what I love about BTC Pay Server, again, we talked about value that project created, billions processed, but it's not something that we directly captured or priced, put a price tag on.
We have created software at the start like first two years in our spare time because we believe in mission of Bitcoin and that was our way of giving back. Even now, it's only nine of us in the team. Such a small team with such a big impact and that's what really I try to emphasize whenever I'm talking even with young developers that are trapped in some kind of consulting job, closed source system building, new CRM that's going to die in two years.
Once you switch to working on Bitcoin, working on FOS, it's funny because it's true. Once you switch to working in open and contributing to a system like Bitcoin, then suddenly, with BTC Pay Server first two years, there was absolutely no monetary gain. People looking from outside, they were like, oh, you guys have it so easy. Tried to explain to them as like, no, we didn't have it easy. Our first big donor was Jack Dorsey and Square Crypto.
Kudos to Mike Brock for suggesting that initiative and then Miles Souter for being a big champion that we're doing a good work. But it's exactly that. What is your mission? And if you have a mission, if you have a calling, if you are creating and delivering value without even focusing too much on how you capture it, that's what you should be doing. So every day that I get to wake up and do that, that Bitcoin has freed me to do that.
And I would encourage every developer that has any kind of spare time, look into FOS projects into Bitcoin, find where you can contribute. As Jeff said, there is now sovereign engineering. There are different programs that HRF is doing. To see how you can plug into that system because it's a cooperative system. And sure, you can look at it from a perspective, okay, there will be 8 billion people and you will be in a way competing with them.
But once you're really focused on yourself and what you're great at, you're not competing with anyone. Like you're competing with yourself. The value that you have produced yesterday, today, are you producing more value? The best thing about it at the end is you are in a place where you should be. We all need to get to that place where you're doing what's called work, but it's not really work. It's a life's mission or however you want to call it.
Yeah, Roxy, when you just said that, you're just getting started and you've touched a billion people or a billion payments. When you think about that with nine people, just getting started, this is already free in the world. It's already out there and it's just starting and it's going to expand. Look, how many people are you going to touch through your work? That's pretty powerful work. It is incredible to see.
I think also I'd just like to throw out to that any Sats that were zapped to me during the stream are going to go to open Sats to support open source development because I think that's a, as somebody who is not an open source developer, at least that's a small way that I can contribute. We did that last time with the stream. Thank you to everyone who has zapped this because it's a small way that those of us who are less technical than the rockstar dev can at least contribute in a small way.
This is something that just gives me so much hope and this is something that I feel very privileged and very fortunate to have gotten to know so many incredible Bitcoiners because Bitcoiners give me hope for the future.
It gives me hope that you have people who have literally dedicated their lives and their significant intelligence to building on an open protocol and to building things that may not get, that they could be making more fiat somewhere else surely with any number of cushy jobs or rockstar like you and I had discussed previously, working three different contractor jobs at the same time and collecting three paychecks and doing great, but they're
choosing not to and they're focusing their time and their energy and their intelligence somewhere else.
It just feels like for anyone that's on this stream right now listening that happens to be listening through an open decentralized protocol called Noster, we're still so early to all of this and it's important to take a step back and just appreciate that for a moment and realize that we have so far to go, but none of where we have come so far, none of it is possible without open source developers building.
Zapadev, say thanks to Adev and try to use, if you're not a technical person, use whatever voice you have to try and amplify the signal that these guys create with their code because I think it's really important. Thank you for that Walker. On behalf of all of my heart man. Zap all the devs. Absolutely. Well guys, I want to Jeff, I want to be conscious too because I noticed things are getting a little bit dark around you. Do we, I think, you know, we've covered a lot here.
This has been a high density conversation. I'm trying to think of the best note to sort of, to sort of wrap up on a little bit and maybe it's worthwhile just saying, you know, what, what gets you excited about the future and or what makes you hopeful. I think that a lot of people right now have a sense of generalized despair or worry about the future, particularly people that are trapped in the fiat hamster wheel.
And they feel that even again, like this is back to NGU a little bit, so I'll apologize, but they look at the price of Bitcoin going up and they think, you know, that's, that's more than I make in a year for a Bitcoin. I'm, I'm too late. I've missed the boat.
You know, yeah, there's these other cool, maybe, maybe they know about Noster, maybe they know about all the other cool things being built like FETI, like PDC, Pacer, they know about all these things, but they think, you know what, I'm just too late. I'm too trapped in the fiat game to have this actually make a meaningful difference in my life. So, like, what do you, what do you say to those people, what, what makes you hopeful?
What should give other people hope that no, they're not too late, that we are still early, that there is still so much repricing, as you would say, Jeff, to go. It's a, and it's not just repricing.
It's the higher level of consciousness in the world caused by this, by working on an honest, that's what's going to happen in the end, and I think the thing that you're touching on here, why you respect so many people in this space, even people you disagree with on certain issues, but they make you better, they make you sharper, they, but underneath it all, you know, they're all cooperating on an honest network. You might have different, different versions of our version to be able to do it.
And that builds, essentially, what you could say from that walker is we're already living in the future, and we'd love more people to join us. But we can't make them join us. It's their, it's their job to understand, and I emphasize, if you're seeing the world like, from your own factor, and you believe it looks like that, but it doesn't look like that for me at all. It doesn't look like you just described it all.
In fact, it doesn't, I have massive empathy for people that are going through that. But for me, it doesn't look like that. It looks, I've already committed my time to this. It looks like abundance. It looks like it's in just, and it gets better and better all the time. It just feels amazing. So mostly, I just want to stay here and I hope people join us. But each in their own time, they don't have to join us.
They don't have, eventually they will, because this is, this system is imposing this on the world. But even for the people that don't join us, because the free market is deflationary, and all of what we're creating is that, they might not have as many sacks. They might, imposing this discipline across the world, freeze them too. Yeah, it's better for everyone.
And I think the biggest, the biggest service we can do as people that have been in Bitcoin for quite a while for me, it's like over a decade, just talk about our own journeys and the moments that we have experienced, because I remember when I started contributing to BTC Pay server, seven years ago, more than seven years ago, Bitcoin was just, was getting like what, $20,000 and everyone's like, oh, it's too late. And then when it dropped down to $3,000, everyone's like, okay, it's dead.
It's eternal sunshine of spotless mind. It's the same cycle. And then I guess I'm lucky enough to remember times when Bitcoin went all the way up to $210 and everyone was like, oh, it's too late. Now I've missed the boat and then it dropped to $70 and everyone's like, okay, it's dead. So that's what's coming now where Bitcoin will get to over $100,000 and then maybe it crashes below $100,000. It just goes back to what I said.
It becomes another form of slavery is if you're watching that price and constantly thinking about your network, you, you missed the point is a Bitcoin as protocol should be what interests you and then through that protocol, how do you connect with the social network that Bitcoin is that social layer? And going back to what Jeff was saying, how do you create value? Is it posting an oyster that gets you 10,000 sets a month? Perfect. You're like corned allorian with his memes.
You walk her with your streams. Purs that join and develop their own false projects. But it's like you need to find that anchor that will speak to you and properly connect you. And yeah, I would encourage people to do that. If us on this stream or previous stream can share our experiences and point you to the anchor, the better, like I would actually even go to answer some of the questions that we have received if we have time after this walk. Do you, Jeff, do you have another couple of minutes?
I want to be conscious of if there are some questions, I'm happy to probably let's give it 10 more minutes for me. That's perfect. So I know, okay, there were a lot of questions. Lightning round. Yeah, lightning round. Okay, so we'll keep them sure. I'm looking at Rockstar's post right now because he's got a lot of questions on here. Well, we have Ben Price, my nephew who's founder of OpenSats, a Bitcoin person.
He's asking, how do you come to terms with mistakes you've made along the way in your Bitcoin journey if you made them and move forward and don't say some cost fellacy? Do you want to take this one, Jeff, or I should? Why don't you go first? So the way I've started to look at this, especially after all of our talks, Jeff, is that I tried to not look at them as mistakes. It's more like what went wrong and what can I learn from it? And the main point for me is, is someone hurt?
Because as Jeff said in one of our conversations, and this is a sentence I can free here in public, is that he said, if I hurt you, I have hurt myself. And I have thought about that a lot. And that's what I do not want in my relationships. I don't want to be a cause of hurt of anyone. So if I made mistake the way that I first need to know about my mistake and what happened. And then what's the hurt that's been caused? And third step is simple. What do you want me to do? How do I fix this?
And if you establish this framework very quickly, you will get to the truth much faster. And then you will also avoid a lot of situations because sometimes people will blame you. And they will be like, oh, you made this mistake, that mistake. And not all people are well intentioned. There are people that will blame you for stuff and accuse you of mistakes as a way to control you.
So if they cannot describe the hurt that you caused and the action that you should take, that's usually a hint that they want you in their servitude. So yeah, that's my framework for approaching mistakes and most importantly fixing them. Mine's a little different than what I wrote about it was in the book. I still have the intelligences error correction. And since that book, a lot of people ask me then what's wisdom and I said a lifetime of error correction. And we make mistakes.
The only moment that matters right now is right now, the moment I'm spending with you guys that morning. And all of my mistakes and successes brought me to this moment right now. But I can't change the next moment. I can only change this moment. So I try to be present in that moment. And then if I make a mistake or if I've done something wrong, that's interesting.
Why I talk all the time about my own hypocrisy and Bitcoin, spending all my time in the theater world while I'm telling everybody to black Bitcoin is that was a huge mistake. And admitting that mistake freed me to be able to free my time. And I could live in a hypocrisy. I could live there and pretend to hide that mistake. But the only person I'd be harming is me.
And so if you take it even back further, that's why I said so much gratitude for all of the people who created, went before me and created all the things here. If I go back to 2015, all of the people who were screening about Bitcoin and I was one of these people in the matrix, we thought they were crazy. Not so much. But I remember my development teams telling me, do this and I was just too busy to look. So yes, I made the same mistakes and a whole bunch of them. You think those are some?
You make them all the time. We all do. The part is if you're looking to, this is a really simple, there seem seemingly simple, but way harder to do. And I think it'll make sense when I say it. We take credit for all the good things in our lives and anything that's not working, we blame somebody else. And then when we look at somebody else blaming other people for this thought in their life, we wonder why they can't see it. Isn't that interesting?
So if you know that that's true, then you were responsible for everything. Your frame of reference creates it all. And so you should take accountability for every single thing because you choose all your time. And Jeff, I think you just dropped. I don't know if we can even bring up another question after that because you just dropped a lot of wisdom there that I think is going to have a lot of people thinking. That's really excellent advice. And it is kind of funny.
I think we're all guilty of this, right? Exactly you said that we will think we are very self-aware, but then not be self-aware at all when it comes to evaluating ourselves and the mistakes we've made in reference to other people who's perceived mistakes from our side, we see as so obvious to us, not realizing that, ah, we are in fact doing the exact same thing. And unless we're conscious of it, unless we try to really admit it and say, you know what, yeah, that was wrong.
I could have done better there. I could have done something different. We're not going to get better. But the point you made about all of those mistakes have brought you right here this moment, I think that that's such a beautiful point.
And I think that's something that everyone can agree on because I've made plenty of mistakes in my life, but somehow they've all brought me here to be talking with Jeff Booth and my uncle Rockstar on a live stream on a decentralized protocol where people are zapping and those apps are going to open source devs. I mean, like if you told me that in 2019, I would have said I don't, I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I literally cannot even comprehend that.
But somehow all of those little, you know, mistakes and broken roads lead to somewhere really amazing if you're willing to accept them. Sometimes acceptance is the, that's the hardest part. But Rockstar, I'm not sure if there's any other questions you want to cover, but I don't know how we, I don't know how we top that one. We covered some of them about, yeah, strategic reserve and whatnot, but go ahead, go ahead. We were going to organize another one that's exclusively Q&A.
And in the meantime, close it down, protect Jeff from the dark and build better protocols together. Thank you. It was so good doing this. What do you guys love about sending much love to both of you as well? This was, this was a treat. Thanks to everyone on the live stream. I'm going to shut this live stream down now. And that's a wrap on this Bitcoin talk episode of the Bitcoin podcast. You are a Bitcoin only company in trust and sponsoring the Bitcoin podcast.
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