Bitcoin mining is probably the biggest catalyst for why governments are starting to take the club more seriously on the continent. They started realizing that this whole mechanism of bootstrapping energy production by having a buyer first demand has solved all the issues that we've had for decades in terms of electrification. So if I was to die and be brought back again, and I had to choose where I'd be born, I still want to be born in Nigeria again.
I guess this energy about us when it comes to being on your feet and trying to do things for yourself as a lot of things don't work. So typically a lot of people are brought up to be a bit more like grit and kind of ambition because you're forced into that circumstance. Most people here in Europe aren't aware of how much the banks and central banks of the Western world have been screwing you guys over. There's this obvious opportunity for Africans potential where it's been completely extracted.
But internally, there are a lot of folks that masquerade as trying to help the continent. But really, what they're doing is using Africa as this marketing campaign for them. And the reason some personally are get into all the rooms and places where folks make decisions about where they're extracting resources from Africa. Abubakar. Welcome to the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, great to see you again, Abubakar.
We've run into one another in a couple of conferences here and there. During the last year and I remember the first, the first time I heard of you was, during the week where we formed the the Free Madera organization. So there was there were all of these big shots, like Jeff and Larry and Greg talking about this boy genius from Nigeria and, Yeah. So so you yeah, you have a very interesting background story. You you, became a Bitcoin core contributor at an early age.
I mean, we're very eager to hear your story. Not only the Tldr, but like, maybe the the, the l, did read, you know, so let's start from the top, please. And and tell us about yourself. Yeah. For sure. I think just to give more context, all started mostly 2017 ish. And that was about the same time at, the price rally was just getting to that point.
And I think one of the main things as well, that caught my attention at that point, reading up about baseline was kind of the, the wars that were happening at the time for SegWit and all that. So that was an interesting cultural, cause phenomenon that was going on within the Bitcoin space about redefining what bitcoin is potentially the future and kind of where to pick in terms of the next steps for Bitcoin. So for me, that was the hurdle of understanding what the hell this is.
And then it's harder given the fact there's so much I would say, both information and misinformation on Exxon at the time. Twitter. So at the point I was just a year after I graduated high school, so we had a lot of time on my hand. And the thinking for me then was the strategy I had was to take a year out and then potentially figure out what exactly I could do with my life.
The intention was to go in and study architecture, and then that morphed into engineering based on the reading I was doing. And then, suffice to say, by the end of 2017, I realized that there's a lot more to to figure out about myself specifically. So by 2018, I started teaching myself how to code as a result of Bitcoin, mostly because I didn't know what I was reading. And for me, the thinking was simple that I don't know what I'm reading, which is highly, technical.
And the idea should be teach myself that the technical things that are missing out. So I said to myself, how to program, specifically things around computers, compilers, all of that. So I got me into a bunch of projects, really, and an open source specifically. So cut up a small toy programing language based off of a book called Quality Programing Interpreter, something like that by Robert Nystrom, which is an insane book if anyone has already had.
And the idea by the end of 2018 was to start understanding the technical aspects. So at that point I was pretty conversant with Python, a couple of languages. My 2019 was when I realized that Bitcoin is a proper protocol. So I started looking at the GitHub and I think they had this October fest thing, which is pretty popular for open source projects. But in October in 2019, and right about that same month, I think I saw a pull request by another major developer who became like this.
At that point, the first Bitcoin Core computer from our side of the world. And it was interesting for me because I was like, okay, that actually means that as possible, I'll like, you know, like, let me just scour the repo and see what, what I could contribute to it. And I found this pretty. Now it's a trivial change in my opinion, but at that point I thought I was doing pretty much the the huge task undertaking, and I was pretty much the change to the guy.
So at the time, I really hadn't compiled core before that. So you got the PR involved, me open, actually compiling core, getting into the nitty gritty about the protocol itself, specifically looking at how to actually make changes to pull requests or trading a bunch of other PRS to see what the culture was like. And then by 2020 was kind of got merged. And then ever since then, it's been like further entrenching myself into the Bitcoin space.
And at that point, like college didn't become, you know, a huge priority because my thinking was, this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. And then I see roughly the same year when I started Recursive Capital as well, and then 2021 did some more work on protocol development, started Carlo with Bernard, Carlino, a bunch of folks, and then Petrus came along.
So since 2021 to date, it's just been a lot more responsibility to use over the years, which has further entrenched both my conviction for Bitcoin, but also the reason why I continue to stay in the Bitcoin space earlier, why I feel this is such a huge thing that I could do with my life, as opposed to other things as super cool. I mean, you grew, you were born and grew up in Nigeria, is that right? Yeah, yeah. In Lagos or in in Kaduna. So it's an hour away from the capital up north, right.
All right, all right. And this is so it's like the, the, the last place on Earth where you'd expect to find a Bitcoin core developer. But like this is this just shows the power of the, the network where we're at everywhere, you know, and, yeah, I visited Nigeria when I was 18 and, it was here in Lagos and because my dad worked there. So I was there for a week, which was a surreal week for, an 18 year old, absolutely.
No. So, so, so how was growing up in Nigeria and like, the can you tell us a bit about that? And like, how how did you find Bitcoin in the first place? I mean, this whole the, the story you told sort of started at the, the midpoint. So, so, so give us, give us the even longer version if you, if you will. Yeah for sure.
I mean, growing up in Nigeria is pretty much it makes, I mean the countless 200 other million stories really from the country you our population, it's a mix of like, I'll say this way faster than the brought back again. And I had to choose where I'd be born. I still want to be born in Nigeria again, but to be Nigerian again, I think it's it's a weird mix. Yes, a lot of economic challenges there, a lot of socio economic challenges, I should say. And I think it's interesting.
So the culture, the people, the food, everything I think is probably one of the best in the world. And at the same time, when it comes to the economic indices and some of the social issues that we do have definitely runs super low around the world. So it's kind of a weird mix between the people that have so much issues and a lot of copying, which results in a lot of banter, how we have, generally speaking, backgrounds.
And there's also this, I guess, this energy about us when it comes to being on your feet and trying to do things for yourself, because a lot of things don't work. So typically a lot of people are brought up. Same thing in my case, to kind of be a bit more full of grit and kind of ambition because you're forced into that circumstance. So I see with Bitcoin, it started in 2013, in terms of hearing about it first, and at that point I was 14.
It was from some obscure video my brother brought back from YouTube. I was like, oh, you know, I've heard about this Bitcoin thing. For context, he's an economics major at that point was pretty much fully entrenched as a gold bug. So I guess seeing things like, you know, the Kaiser report at that time was probably one of the reasons why he got interested into Bitcoin Krispy. So watch the video. Honestly, I didn't know what that was all about for me.
I thought it was like this math contest because it was trying to explain bitcoin mining in the video and all that. Okay, I mean, you could get into this competition and win coins, whatever that means. And then fast forward to I guess probably early 2017 or late 2016 was when he came back again. So at that point he started working for the government. And the reason was because after you finish, college in Nigeria, the idea is for you to serve the country.
So you pretty much get posted in some part of the country where you do either work for the government or some sort of agency. The idea is to have some sort of national pride or interest in the country itself. So it's kind of requirements. And what you have for, other countries that they do mandatory military service and ceremony to service. We do social service essentially. So that happened.
And then I think they're trying to get the IBM DNA program, which is basically this, shit coin in-house blockchain that they built. So as part of the reading material, they are told to, you know, take a look at Bitcoin or some other things. So he started talking to me about Bitcoin. I was like, again, I know what this is all about. So we started reading what I should see around that time.
That's when everything kind of flooding to guess the entire narrative I just painted in the beginning of okay, what else? Bitcoin specifically. So a lot of the articles are from, I think, hatred. And at that point, a lot of medium posts, a lot of Bitcoin magazine as well. A couple of other other things really that helped us probably Twitter, to be honest with you. I think I learned more about Bitcoin from Twitter than anything else.
I guess by some of the reading I did on the technical side for what computers are like, programing and things like that. But generally speaking, all the insider stuff from folks are on Twitter. Yeah. Let's. Cool. Hacker, you mentioned hacker noon there. That's, Yeah. Funnily enough, that's where I started. Like I published my that's the first thing that, like, picked me up and published my articles like, it's like a media magazine, right.
But now it's it's shit coin and stuff, and then unfortunately. Yeah, like everything else from that era seems like everything turned into shit at some point, especially media. Yeah, yeah. No, but, I mean, super cool story and I can relate to, like, what I remember from Nigeria, what I remember what my dad stories were like, like, it's like these two worlds, right?
Because, you, as you say, you have all the socio economic problems and stuff and you can literally see people, begging on the streets and stuff. But everyone's super happy everywhere, and everyone's super nice and like, they have these big Africa smiles everywhere, you know, and they feel very welcome. And at the same time, it's kind of chaotic. Yeah. So, so, let's get into the rest of the story. You were like, what? What happened then after after your Bitcoin Core contribution?
You you were discovered by other Bitcoiners, I guess, and your talent was, is now utilized elsewhere. So. So give us the rest of the story. What happens next? Oh, yeah. So in 2020 was when I started doing a lot more work around, protocol development. So specifically contributing to doing PR reviews, I think right about that C times when I met other Bitcoiners because I retrenching myself in Twitter, follow pretty much anyone that I thought was involved with Bitcoin.
And at that point my thinking was I get into the space as a pseudo anonymous developer. So at this whole cartoon, a big character that I was going around with the. So, I mean, bunch of folks that knew me from that era probably remember that graphic, but that was the intention. I clearly failed, but definitely learned a lot. So all I could be sued. Anonymous I definitely think could be a lot more fruitful that the attempt I had. So I met up with a whole bunch of bitcoiners.
The primary ones were like folks like Bernard who's involved with, this yours. So you have been up. And at that point we were really just exchanging a whole bunch of DMs on Twitter. And funny enough, I think a year or two after we first started speaking, you mentioned that he thought of us as, oh, 30 year old programmer that he was talking to and he was also simultaneously talking to our older brother at the time. But I only figured that out like the year after we're talking.
So I guess at that point, in terms of folks knowing about me was probably as a result of Bernard, I think he shot this, I think this tweet, when I turned 22, I think saying, you know, here's this quote, developer from Nigeria, blah, blah, blah and all that. So I see in terms of spotlighting, I was probably that paired with, you know, I think when, and the folks at Paxful came to major as well. So a lot of tourism when I got Doxed, I guess. So a lot of that happened.
And then I see subsequent, subsequent to that was getting involved in the to include study groups. So at that point I was post Covid, so they canceled all the in-person stuff. So all they had was a study group. So I got into that one, I think I think 2021 or 2025 called for the lightning one and then the Bitcoin one afterwards. So I met up with a whole bunch of folks that were involved in the Bitcoin space. Folks like the merge, folks like a bunch of folks actually that are on that.
I think of it, even the folks from the wallet as well. So I that's kind of where I got in transfer there. And then I think 2022 onwards after the hobby trust of I got to meet or bitcoin or especially folks like Carla and some of the others. So I see it was kind of an interesting tale in terms of talking to a few folks, and then that kind of bubbled up into talking with a lot of other folks, and then Carla came along and a whole bunch of stuff.
So it's kind of a mix of further entrenching myself as sort of a few priorities initially. So it was kind of how it evolved. All right. And you're now the CEO of B trust. So what is B trust like, can you give us the Tldr on B trust and what you do. Oh yeah. So I mean it first started as an initiative by Jack really to propel Bitcoin development in Africa and India. Because at the time for context, there are a lot of issues with regards to both regulation as well as just ease of use.
And I think adoption wise too, we were still topping charts put up with continents, actually continents or continent. And the thinking for him was for Bitcoin to get to the speed that it needs to be in terms of resilience, and all of that will need to have critical mass of developers from parts of the world that are using it and mimic that same sort of anti fragility that we're talking about in terms just people out in the rugged regions.
Just for our listeners, by Jack, you mean Jack Dorsey, of course. Oh yeah. Twitter clarify that. Yeah. It's and it evolved into essentially especially after having the board into a simple mission which is essentially decentralizing Bitcoin development in the Global South. So specifically regions in Africa and yeah, some of these other parts.
And during the make up of the board, having been heavily Nigerian and heavily African, I should say, with all four board members, including myself, being from Africa made sense for us to start on the continent that were privy to, which is Africa, and then gradually expand beyond that. So in terms of sourcing mission, it's definitely to decentralize development in regions where they're not as common.
And now, so far since we launched in 2021, I think we now have, long term developers that were supporting my coworkers. It has been super incredible. Bitcoin core working on Mempool stash, even stuff on mining, as well as Novo, who's also working on Bitcoin Core, specifically silent payments. We also have another long term developer who's, female are the only one truly on the continent, is also working on the Lightning Network. We also have, to bet resources on BitPay server.
I also have another, another person was on the started groundwork team on, I think, polar, as well as another one who's Duncan working on the Lightning Network as well. So we have roughly around six folks that are currently full time grants.
So since then, it's definitely evolved from just a basic idea that there are these developers that we can support on the continent and other parts to supporting a lot of these developers, making them, you know, the first class of developers coming out of this continent that have jobs fully working on Bitcoin, specifically open source, because I should clarify it in terms of support. Be just isn't, built to support ventures?
All we're doing is essentially centralized development specifically for Bitcoin, specifically open source. So that's where the core of our, activities are. So in 2023 is when we took over the gala program, kind of just made it an internal pipeline for ourselves just to make sure everything streamlined. So started doing a lot more, capacity building.
So since then, to date, I think we've changed probably close to goes to 500 folks in terms of being involved, some part of the other, whether it's mustering Bitcoin all the way up to the residents who are, I guess, the fellowship that we call it, which is three months intensive all the way up to getting a grant. So right now we're set up to do three things. So one is supporting developer education programs. So we have one internal called B Trust Builders which was previously caller.
And then we also support other initiatives like Big Shala in India as well as the brightest Satoshi in Latin America. We also do conference okay sponsorships. So sponsor the Africa Bitcoin Conference for example size conf as well. Even adopting Bitcoin in Cape Town last year. And the last type of grants that we do is three fold. I should say two fold. One is the startup grants.
The idea was that it was born out of the long term grants that we did, because our thinking was, if we're still early in the stage, we are going to have a lot of people that are working long term on Bitcoin that have that type of track record.
So the idea is to have this kind of discovery grant where they have three months, actually six months, essentially where they kind of look for a niche within Bitcoin Core or some other project related to Bitcoin, and then they gradually get into long term grants. So we had folks like abacus might as well start with that novel as well. So I say like half or probably over 60 or 70% of the people creative long term grant started from that pipeline.
And we also have the long term grants, which start from a year and then could be renewed for two years plus. So those three are kind of the main engine behind for trust. And in terms of moving forward 2025, it's a lot of, I guess, streamlining that process with subcommittees similar to how open science evaluates, proposals. That way it's not subject to the discretion of the board or potentially some sort of foul play.
So a lot of a lot of work around that, a lot of work around open source, specifically drilling into having a very effective pipeline or filter for that. So that's why we decided to also do the POS program, which is initiative started by chain. Couldn't a whole bunch of other folks who trying to refine the whole process. Later in the year, we're going to do our own program, our own our own program, as well as part of the court five. So this one's currently code four is going to start on Monday.
And the idea is simple, like get a whole bunch of folks interested in Bitcoin, help them navigate the space. So we just essentially now set up as both the starting point and the destination for developers, specifically in Africa and all these other regions that we serve. Yeah. Cool. You mentioned Bit Chalet in India. They, by the way, are doing a, a thorough read of, of, Bitcoin, the inverse of cloud World book. So, so I'm enjoying hopping in and listening to that every now and then.
It's wonderful to hear it read out and explained in in an Indian accent. It's one in Ireland that, that that is all on YouTube. And like, I'll, I'll do a big post about it when, whenever the series is done. But they're doing it once a week. So that's a great project. So, so yeah. Bitcoin in Africa in general and in Nigeria specifically. Like, what what let's start somewhere like how is adoption in Nigeria?
The things I've heard from Nigeria is like every other year they ban it and every other year they they embrace it. And this goes back and forth. Right. And like it's very schizophrenic. So what's going on there. You know a lot. And I say for context, the first ban or I should say quasi ban was in, I believe, 2021 or early 2022. And the idea was, again, more context.
Bitcoin was introduced into the continent, specifically in Africa, specifically in Nigeria, as kind of a part of, I guess, an ecosystem of scams that came in. So a lot of people had these multi marketing level multi-level marketing schemes and things like that that pretend like they're buying Bitcoin for people were, whereas they weren't in reality. So a lot of people really had an introduction to Bitcoin. And again, to fight in the sense that they felt this was just a scam.
And obviously there is the I guess the the existing paradigm of scamming and and being that being a means for folks, typically folks around my age. So there was that perception that it's either for criminals or these young kids trying to make a quick buck or just scammers out. Right? Yeah. All about Nigerian royal royalty, right. Prince exotic. Yeah. So that's, you know, one of the tools for the royal class you could see of scammers here.
So I guess the thinking from the central Bank of Nigeria and some of the regulators here at the apex, regulators I should say, has been one of cautious, cautious like hesitation to kind of get involved, especially in that at that point in time in 2021. So the idea for them was just have a blanket ban, the same thing where every other part of the world's pretty much hide.
So what they did was essentially stop all these crypto companies at that point directly tying banned transactions to Bitcoin or generally crypto. So that was the first quasi binary. There wasn't necessarily an outright ban ever in dangerous history. A couple of other countries somebody and from that point on to 2023 was kind of an interesting period for us. So we went from people essentially using all these centralized exchanges to realizing they can't necessarily do that effectively now.
So everyone was Christian to P2P and I mean, like really, right, P2P all the way from in-person to shitty WhatsApp groups to telegram group. So we kind of built in the two years since that whole quasi ban, like a very, very strong P2P network of liquidity, really for Bitcoin, which is why we tend to rank pretty high when it comes to either P2P or just adoption in general, because a lot of people are facing lot of economic challenges.
Nigeria, where we have double digit inflation, food crisis that we had previously, I think two years now. So of the the election that happened two years ago, two, which is insane in terms of the the shortages on cash because they're moving to different nodes to soak up the amount of, money that's outside of banks so that regulation could be effective. So they reversed the ban in 2023 or 2023. But at that point, really Bitcoin was already a common staple.
So went from being super scammy to people actually organized that it has used outside of just being kind of a scam coin or some sort of a criminal money, really. So started realizing that they could use it for savings from intensives. All of that, and then used it came into the mix too.
So they have like, pretty much stable Swiss Army knife in terms of how they navigate monetary at the monetary milieu generally and being being able to participate both at the local level as well, like a global level. So definitely, if you ask me, I feel like, the regulators are the reason why Bitcoin is so big in Nigeria because it was so desperate to and have blanket bans early on, which I mean the consequences are very difficult to determine from their point of view.
So I definitely understand that it would have been difficult to foresee that there enabled this whole push of P2P all the way up to, you know, for their economic crises as a result of a whole bunch of stuff like borrowing from the IMF. So as in now in the state of Bitcoin in Nigeria specifically, it's two fold, like it's very, very high. But it's on to the stage where people think in terms of you could walk into a shop and pay with Bitcoin, it's mostly to do with actual individuals.
So I see the individual adoption is very high and not like a national adoption. That's happening in like other countries, like software, all those, whereas like really nationally recognized on that level. And what about mining? Are there any mining projects in Nigeria like how is that going? Okay, it's interesting too. So starting from really early on, a lot of hobbyist mining in Nigeria.
So we're talking sub one megawatts, like really rugged mining operations where you just walk into a house and start hearing a whole bunch of noise, and then walking to this room, you see a whole bunch of S19 working out. So at this point is a lot more structured.
I say, due to a lot of the clarity that we have in terms of other parts of Africa as being Bitcoin mining like Ethiopia, Kenya and some other parts, I think a lot more people are understanding in terms of the value, the benefit, as well as how to actually practically do it well without blowing circuits in and causing fires, which a whole bunch of early folks had to go through.
And right now we're seeing a huge uptake in terms of organized mining operations in Nigeria, despite the fact that there isn't necessarily clear regulation in terms of an okay or a not really from the regulator. So so we're still in that like shadowy area in terms of operation. But there's a lot to do with hydro as well as flared gas, because as you said, guys down south and Niger has pretty much ranked top five, I think customers in the world.
So makes a lot of sense for people to engage through that. So it's actually growing, I think. I think we're behind in terms of adoption for Bitcoin mining compared to Kenya or Ethiopia. I mean, Ethiopia alone right now. I think the last time I checked, the numbers are probably around like 25% global hash rate, which is insane.
It grew from like pretty much 0.5 or 0.25 a year earlier in 2023, all the way up to 2.5 when, just for context, like the whole of Africa is roughly around three point something percent hash rate. So you can see just a single country gobbling so much of the hash rate. So I think probably by the end of 2025, that number generally for Africa will probably reach above 5% as a result of expanded operations both in Ethiopia, Kenya as well as some parts of Nigeria. Yeah, yeah.
So that I think the whole mining picture in general is an interesting one, like, what you mentioned with kind of the comparisons to, to other countries, and, well, I guess we should say the, the, our last meeting was at the nice conference in Slovenia, and we did a panel together on, I guess, the, the future trends in, in mining. And I think your, your expertise on the, on the local market in Africa was a good, a good chunk of what we talked about.
But, I guess do you see this trend continuing that that mining is going to be really targeting these these areas that, are currently sort of say, underserved in terms of electrical grids and things like this, like, is mining the the narrative around it is seems to be very positive in Africa right now. Is that, really the case? Oh, I hundred percent and I think it's forced regulators into a very interesting spot. So think of it this way.
We already had, especially in Nigeria, the whole evolution of people flipping the paradigm on Bitcoin from seeing a super volatile, super stable to Bitcoin being a lot less volatile than the national currency, I mean, increased the economic crisis and all of that. So we went through that whole shift in just Bitcoin being a money that actually does work. Regulators already have that context to work with.
And then Bitcoin mining was, I think, the first time that a lot of people understood that Bitcoin is a technology. And not just a money, as people are seeing it as like funny internet money, because now they're seeing that there are practical socio economic consequences and benefits of Bitcoin mining specifically to do with electrification, which has been a huge issue in Africa. Like, do we have been approaching this on a national level?
Variety of countries has been heavily borrowing, getting folks to get involved with energy production. And then the problem is folks feel it's too risky to get involved a lot of these regions, and then there's no one to take on this, this energy that's been produced. So typically you just shut off. Don't don't begin about these projects and other leading with that.
So with Bitcoin mining, these are realizing that this mechanism of bootstrapping energy production by having a buyer first demand has solved all the issues that we've had for decades in terms of electrification. So for the first time, they've been put in a position where they'll have to confront Bitcoin mining more head on, a more one maturely than previously in terms of just outrageous, hand-waving in terms of it just being money and a scam.
So I think we're going to see a lot more, especially now with Ethiopian Kenya. I think they've been super, super great in terms of pioneering the space, both in terms of on the regulatory front, but also on the strategic level in terms of ramping up energy production and really showing people that you could actually usefully manage green projects through Bitcoin mining and to connect electrify rural communities.
Then honestly, in a point where you have access revenues for these communities, which can then be used to build out further the grids that are pretty, pretty disparate in terms of, their maturity as well as the level of handling the load to distribute to other parts that don't have electricity.
So it's this whole flywheel that's being created, another person place in Mangere and other places that are not as advanced in terms of Bitcoin mining are starting to see that as like a template to Bitcoin to especially the bitcoin miners. You're trying to do the work. So I think we'll see in 2025 to 2026 will be a lot more regulatory clarity or at least some regulation, whether good or bad, come out as a result of Bitcoin mining.
And you'll likely see a lot more countries being involved with bitcoin mining, not just for electrification, but likely for, I guess, national treasury management, really, where they're holding Bitcoin as one possibly doing their servicing down the line as well. I've heard a few conversations without mentioning specific countries where some of the regulators are starting to look at that, especially on the central bank level, as a result of the work from the Bitcoin Policy Institute around that.
So that mean a lot is going to happen. And I think Bitcoin mining is probably the biggest catalyst for why governments are starting to take become more seriously on the continent. Mr.. Hello there. And here's how to use code infinity like everywhere on the internet. For instance for the MicroStrategy Bitcoin for corporations, conference for BTC, frog for BTC. Hell, we come to Helsinki in August and make sure T goes stamp seed with your three fantastic little C plates.
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And make sure to like subscribe and brush your feet and all that for the Bitcoin infinity.com and get some stuff and some books. Great to have you here. I, I'm not sure that people outside of the mining industry really understand how important it is for as a driver for, for Bitcoin generally.
And I mean, I think there's a there's a perception that, bitcoin as used by users, maybe, maybe not necessarily even the ones who are running their own node and have full self-custody, but just, you know, use the Lightning Network somehow. Maybe they don't really see what, what the impact of mining is on on what they're doing and the reasons why it's important. But it's interesting. It's interesting that you say that, that there's an impact even towards the, the regulatory angle.
And, I guess I guess I'm curious, what do you think in general, the trend is going to be over these next few years in terms of, in terms of regulation, because, as you were saying that, that these trend of, of strategic Bitcoin reserves of, of friendly or unfriendly regulation, but in, in the bull market that is still theoretically just getting started. Number go up is going to do its thing. And, and so it's it's a really unclear time over the next couple of years.
What do you think is is going to happen as, as numbers go up does its thing and, and regulators start to take more interest generally. And it's it's hard to it's hard to tell. I just off the bat like a lot of these prognostications that we could do or we have done, especially on the gun has been thought out wrong for a variety of reasons. But most of the time it's been wrong for the right reasons.
So specifically, a lot of us early on didn't think this far along, and a lot of the thinking that we had was probably like a ten year trajectory to get to where we are currently.
So I say Africa is one of those parts where just the sheer lack of a lot of these infrastructure really, that is needed or is seen is, I guess available in other parts of the world that are quote unquote more developed is probably the biggest opportunity and the biggest reason why it happened so fast in the way it does, like think of it this way, in the last two years, we've gone from roughly less than 0% to around like 0.1% in terms of mining hashrate, all the way up to three point
something percent. So I think in terms of the the adoption, I think even looking back five years ago, where and it wasn't really actually that high all the way up to where it is right now in terms of what's leading adoption, Africa leading mining in terms of green energy, the green energy revolutions.
And then lastly, just looking at even the developer base in Africa has gone from there's no such thing as when we first started getting more open spaces, like an African Bitcoin ecosystem or an African bitcoin development ecosystem, all the way up to having developers come from this part of the world, I think in the next two, three, possibly five years, we're likely going to see like three things. One is a lot more regulatory clarity, and I think we have the opportunity to do two things.
One is, as Bitcoiners approach regulators in a more sensible way than previous have been doing in terms of just being completely antagonistic or hand-waving, because, yeah, a lot of us that are more savvy with Bitcoin will still have access to Bitcoin internally under the same keys.
For people that really understand Bitcoin and can can use it and can self-custody, but the vast majority of people, they'll likely be hindered by a lot of these rails being stopped from government address any kind of regulation.
So it is incumbent on us to fully understand exactly what's going on, or at least are fully involved for it so long, to kind of approach it more holistically, to ensure that there are a lot of protections specific to making sure that self-custody is not in jeopardy, making sure that people still have a proper bridge that's necessarily on 24/7.
The same with Bitcoin is tied to get involved with some of these risky parts of Self-custody all the way up to, some of these risky parts of, custodians, not self-custody. So I'd say that would be one, one way to approach it. I think the second way is from the regulatory standpoint, because we don't have as much regulatory baggage. I say really most of our regulations pretty much translate to regulation from other parts of the world.
I think we have the opportunity to craft novel regulation in the sense that it would be devoid of some of the issues that we're seeing from other regulators around the world, whether it's the mica regulation in Europe or some of the other parts, and in North America with know our cliffs and things like that.
I think for us it would be we have the opportunity to say, no, there would be, but we have the opportunity to really define regulation from, first principles standpoint, where we're looking at what is the benefit on a national level, what is the benefit on a strategic level for us, economically speaking? And how can we use this to achieve better the economic standpoint or the outlook for a lot of these countries?
And I think the other two things I should see is we're still going to be and this is my personal guess. And my full conviction really, is that Africa will be leading Bitcoin development, too.
And I think that would have huge, probably even bigger implications than Bitcoin mining when we think of it both from a strategic standpoint for the continent in terms of making sure that they can replicate the same level of resiliency that require for us to become a prosperous and abundant nature, nation, but also from from a practical standpoint, like the more folks are building from this part of the world, the more these tools and services will be fit for working exceptionally well
in the continent. So I think things around Bitcoin mining and obviously the debate with regards to decentralizing Bitcoin mining in general likely be a consequence of the the large hoards of Bitcoin developers will come out of this part of the world where we'll likely be only just leading, but probably dictating exactly what it looks like to have a Bitcoin nation, quote unquote, as Bitcoin mining. Then obviously the third party should be commenting.
I think energy is one of those things that transcends all sort of, I guess, cultural baggage or orthodoxies that people typically have that are antagonistic to Bitcoin are generally aren't as receptive to Bitcoin initially because it's very easy to connect with Bitcoin. I think this is currency for criminals but is very difficult to deny.
Electrification for rural areas, or it's very difficult to deny a huge uptick in the sheer amount of a leg that electricity in terms of access for people that previously didn't have that. So I think, again, because the practical realities of Bitcoin mining and just how quickly it is, you can start from zero all the way up to having critical mass of electrification around the world or just around the continent, probably going to be another huge traverse.
I'd say Bitcoin mining the short term and then long term, I think Bitcoin development will outpace it in terms of impact. Yeah. And I mean there are so many things that tie into this and, and Africa is such an interesting continent, from so many economic perspectives.
I mean, it's most people here in Europe aren't aware of how much, the banks and central banks of, of the Western world have been screwing you guys over, through the IMF and stuff and the monetary apartheid that goes on, which is basically just vulgar. It's just like, in a very sneaky way, stripped African countries of the resources and grabbing them for ourselves. And like Bitcoin is a true chance at, getting out of that.
So so my question here would be like how aware are are the people you talk to? Like how aware are people in general of of that they are being screwed over by the monetary systems? I mean, from a Nigerian perspective, but perhaps also from a more general African perspective. What what do you see? I think generally a lot of people are more self-aware about how wealth I place in the world as a result of a lot of issues with the crisis, especially in Nigeria.
Yes, being an engine is itself kind of a huge liability if you're trying to interact with the rest of the world. I mean, all the way from actual travel visas all the way up to a bank account, starting businesses, all that kind of stuff. So I think a lot of people already are aware, like, it doesn't take too long as a manager to know that you're a Nigerian and the consequences of that, I think more so on the economic side.
We're definitely fully aware of where we are in terms of having extractive policies, and it's kind of twofold like it's definitely one of those things where it's, it's a mutual symbiosis in my opinion. A lot of people are aware of that. So one side is obviously folks coming in to extract all the opportunity and then turn around and say the, the nation is kind of poor and destitute, which it's akin to having rich people always going to a dumpster to pretty much increase their wealth.
Like it makes no sense. So there's definitely no truth to to the whole it being a poor continent, because you wouldn't necessarily be extracting well from a poor continent. And I think the other the other part I should mention that a lot of people are aware of is that which is why is mutual.
My opinion is a lot of the folks on the ground that already see this chaos that we've created over the last couple of decades, I see, because of a century ish, is because there's so many things that are not working well on the continent, all the way from governance to economics.
A lot of people have gone into what I would see is like the rent seeking class, which is pretty much a class of folks in Africa who use Africa as a general banner to masquerade, as trying to help the continent, but really, how they're doing is using Africa as this, marketing campaign for them to either reach some sales personally or get get into, I guess all the other rooms and places where, folks make decisions about where they're extracting resources from Africa.
So this is mutual in the sense that both from the outside, there's this obvious opportunity to you Africans potential where it's been completely extracted. But internally, there are a lot of folks that I shouldn't say really a lot, but they're folks that are in places where they could do a lot more damage than just a critical mass of like people that do indulge themselves in this as well, in terms of just trying to make a quick buck off of their own continent as well.
So that is a mix of the two, which is why it's very complex in terms of rooting out corruption fully and over the years, I've come to realize that corruption isn't necessarily the biggest issue in Africa is really that the whole renting class and the class of entitled folks also on the continent and just a class of folks that feel the status quo is good enough for them, given the fact that they continue to enrich themselves. I pretty much don't care about the next generation.
I think that's a bigger issue than corruption, because corruption is a general problem for all countries. So does it make sense for it to be zoned in as one of the reasons why we're not where we're supposed to be? Because other parts are also corrupt, undeveloped. So I don't think there's that main issue that a lot of people hamper on on the continent. But essentially my $0.02 when it comes to that conversation, I mean, from a certain, angle that is corruption, right?
But like using state resources for your own, like, like there's no way to, to use, you know, the money gained from theft as, as for anything without really being corrupt, like, at some level. Like, where do you draw the line? There's always, I always struggle with his questions, like, if it's tax funded, isn't it corrupt by its very nature? I mean, there's. Yeah, long in the Congo. Yeah. Well, I mean, think of it this way.
Like it'd be told if we did have the institutions of governance that worked well in terms of succession plans with regards to actually being a proper democracy. I think a lot of the issues will be not as difficult as they actually are in terms of just the sheer mix of convolution on the continent. So that's what I mean.
Typically, when I say corruption isn't the only thing, because if we had strong institutions, a lot of the corruption would naturally be weeded out by the fact that there is structure. The lack of structure is why there is this man to show corruption going on. Yeah. I saw a documentary about my diarrhea once where they had to. They were interviewing the minister, who was, tasked with, dealing with the corruption.
And they had to bribe his guards to get in, get the building into the interview, and then. Father. But, you know, that is. Yeah. Money works in this area and a lot of parts in Africa. So it's not always for the right reasons. Now, oral questions. Luke, do you have any. Yeah. No, just a, ticket to continue on, on this thread a little bit like, I think a narrative that's big in, say more North American.
Western Bitcoin circles or even just the Twittersphere generally is this trend towards an article capitalism, in other words, basically the exact opposite of what you're what you're talking about that that, having strong institutions as, as the counter to corruption on, on when I say cultural level, I don't mean this in like the, the sense of, that that any one part of the world is particularly prone to this.
I mean, I mean, just, I mean, just that in a certain place, there's a, a culture of strong institutions like, traditional, strong institutions as part of the better way to say it. And so and so the, the sort of the anarcho capitalist, ultra libertarian perspective where the end goal is everyone adopts Bitcoin and all the governments go away. How do you see that in practice? Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're already laughing. So what are your thoughts on this?
I mean, I'd like from a philosophical standpoint, I do I do kind of sympathize with the general I cook up to this mindset or I guess the what is now the orthodoxy, which is from the heterodoxy generally that Bitcoin was breath out of. I think I totally get it. I get the understanding and I feel free to have a prosperous society. Definitely have to have that that level of, free will that's needed by the state to the people for it to be prosperous.
But at the same time, I, I do recognize the, the use of purpose of a state in terms of just keeping the quality, keeping folks in check and all those kind of things. So I think what the guys of the world like Africa, it's naturally because of some of the cultures that we have in terms of being community driven and and being a lot more, less about the individual as it is in Western parts of the world.
The more about the community, I think where you have those sure set of values as like a, I should say a springboard in which we can architect a society that's a lot more equitable than typically what we have right now.
I'm just providing sure opportunity then I don't mean equity in the sense of like bringing others down to bring them to the same level of other people, or just like forcing people in the past that either they don't fit or belong to, but I mean, allowing for opportunities for people to navigate themselves and choose pathways in particular, or then they kinda are right now.
So I see a good mix of having currently the cultural, I guess, heritage that we have as a, as a continent is going to be a lot more is going to be the reason why building these institutions will be a lot more fruitful of an endeavor than is kind of seeing other Western parts where it's like this, I guess this quagmire where the state is fully serving its own interest versus the interest of the people.
So I think that there's definitely a lot of middle ground that we could architect really from the ground up in a lot of African countries. And one thing I would say is it doesn't take as much time as to think like there is this idea that people have in general where it's like for a state to be devoid of corruption or for a state to be prosperous, it's going to take like a whole century or something like that. But we have such sheer chaos, like the sum of the benefits of a complex dynamic system.
Such one is that the sheer complexity is wired, unable to predict the duration or the requirement in terms of time that things can get better or could get even worse. I think it's it's it's a double edged sword, like because of how complex it is on the continent. Like things can go really bad really quickly and can also go really good.
Right. So I think I'm a lot of optimism in terms of having a lot more prosperous countries come out of Africa and honestly get to the point where they'll likely be because of hope for other parts of the world. I know that sounds like wishful thinking for a lot of folks to see, but I generally believe in this fully and wholeheartedly, and I feel one of the reasons why this is going to be a practical reality.
The city wants in the last 50, 60 years from continent was pretty much a whole bunch of promises or buncha promising figures that have been killed. So lots of other reasons. I think Bitcoin does play a huge part because of two things like figuring out energy and money is probably one of the the core pieces for architecting any sort of prosperous nation.
So I feel having this tool now does give us an opportunity to leapfrog a lot of the barriers that we previously had and get to the point where we're not only just prosperous, but we're living well in terms of what it should be, in terms of prosperity, down in like 2050s all the way up to the 2100 onward. Yeah. And, you know, I, I, I've been seeing this as a trend even in mainstream media about how about how Africa is really set to boom, basically.
And, and I mean, it's it's interesting how Bitcoin is dovetailing with that, but in a different way than necessarily we see in in countries that don't necessarily have the same set of needs. I mean, there being, a lot of great, well, books and podcasts and stuff talking about basically the, the, the different set of needs that, that Bitcoin is fulfilling, in Africa and other parts of the world that are poorer than, than America, than other Western countries.
And, how do you think how do you think this is, is playing out with the the price increasing so much of, of Bitcoin, there's there's definitely been some in the space that have actually moved away from, from Bitcoin itself into shit coins or, or abandoned crypto altogether basically. Because because of that basically that, that it's not, it's not really useful for people. It, it's not usable as a medium of exchange. So what do you think of that narrative in it?
Is there, is there any truth to to what they're saying? From the perspective of, of Africa versus the Western world? Yeah. So I think there are a lot of things that play like one is on the demographics. And that's one of the reason why I'm also super bullish on the continent is we're just such a young continent, even as now, like we're talking practically like coffee. Over 60% of the population is between 18 and 25.
So on my age range and it's only going to get better really for us in the future to the point where, like you touched like 70, 80% continent, being in that age range, the average age in some countries is on a slope like 14, 16. So we have a lot of potential in terms of just human capital. I think there's nothing a lot to say about what the consequences of that are, both good and bad in terms of either be hyper productive, were completely fluffed chaos.
I think in terms of the coin angle, like the one thing I should say with Africa is again, back to the same, back to the previous day, we're talking about in terms of just the continent and the promise versus the actualization of that promises. A lot of people, both in and outside, are and have been used to this narrative of Africa being this dusty continent that could just constantly be used as, campaigning to or at least a mechanism for internal fundraising and aid and things like that.
And I think one of the things that really wasn't something that was too happy about into the crypto space is it also leaned into that where we had a lot of things all the way from seeing Bitcoin as not useful because it's on an African currency, unless that is something that's external, and then having projects come out that were just outright scamming people and pretending to be Africa's coinage, what the hell does that even mean?
And two was also the the issue that we have, which is is very easy to come into the continent and pretend like you're doing work like all you have to do pretty much which a lot of people have been doing, both internally, the diaspora and outside has been, you know, just coming in, taking a photo with a whole bunch of kids, smiling and tweeting, you know, you've done like a million people now using coin X. And the thing is like, true, true change doesn't require you to make noise about to like
if you actually make an impact in life to go and publicize it. That's the one thing that a lot of people are starting to realize with Bitcoin.
Like the lack of a creator that's there to dictate the future and trajectory of Bitcoin is one of the reasons why it could be, really internalized by other parts of the world, like Africa's RSA as well, because it's large enough and it's big enough and it's deep enough in terms of the shift that is bringing to humanity that all parts of the world can collaboratively lean into these be set of principles that could be the foundation for a prosperous nation.
So I think for Africa, like the the main thing I've seen from the crypto side has been leaning into eternal talk about Africa's potential without necessarily practically dipping into making that a reality, whereas Bitcoin is a complete opposite.
Like it's literally though it's started and is I guess, birthed within the, the standpoint of actually getting into actualizing all the potential of African then taking that to really stuff where a lot of us on the ground, even Bitcoiners have thought of, like Bitcoin mining all of that really early on wasn't something at the top of funnel that were thinking about that caused this type of change.
And I think more broadly in terms of how people see price action, it's the way I personally see price action, as is kind of this. It's there's no ceiling for how you can value, financial freedom or how you could value really energy up on that side. And I think the price is just a reflection of the contemporary, I guess price that people put onto that.
So it's only going to keep bubbling up and I think one other thing really, to take a look at it, I guess this is more on the empirical side is Bitcoin crashes upwards. So there's a popular saying on Bitcoin space. But that really is the keys duplicate historical price analysis. And I think it's just part and parcel of again further discovery as a result of the consequence of having Bitcoin as a tool that is global.
Again, because localized and really just a coin for a specific part of the world, it wouldn't necessarily reach the type of degree of, I guess, both adoption as well as use cases on the ground. But it has to like Africa, I think. Again, just to recap, like the sheer abundance of young folks on the continent likely to be a huge catalyst in terms of advancing us in the right direction or probably going the other direction if we're not proactive.
And again, just to close on this really is I think I'm not part of the crowd of bitcoiners that feel like we've won, quote unquote, or like, you know, it's the happy being poor and all that. I feel Bitcoin has to keep winning. Like there's no concept of Bitcoin has won because by virtue of being software, there's no such thing as like a final end state. There's only a state of either working or being deprecated.
So I firmly believe for us to actually get these things practically done on the continent in terms of prosperity, I'll have to continue to play our part really actively to make sure that we're not only defending attacks, but we're also structuring a very healthy ecosystem from within. Yeah. So one thing, I'm thinking of here, like, as with Africa or Nigeria specifically, perhaps, as opposed to to Western countries in terms of culture and how you view the family.
It's like the the African families are much bigger. There's like clans and stuff like, and groups of like 200 people where your loyalty may lie. Whereas in Western countries you're more focused on like maybe up to grandfathers and grandmothers, but not very much more than that. So, so by the way, are you you have what they call Yoruba or Igbo. Oh, I'm, I'm Fulani actually. So I'm like one, two. Oh right. So I got it wrong. Anyway, so, so, so how do you think that, like, impacts Bitcoin adoption.
Is there like things like fiddy for instance. Seems like seem like, absolutely tailor made for that kind of culture and, like, how much has that got to do with the corrupt, corrupt ness and like, people's loyalties here and there and, building strong institutions and stuff. What are your thoughts? I mean, like capitalism as a whole has really flipped the, I guess the loyalty question into, you know, people being loyal to capital or just money in general. I think there's that angle.
There's also the uncle like you mentioned of, he's like, I mean, I'm from a family of five. It's off included. And it's typically commonplace in a lot of power, especially up here in the north of large families. I think the there are a lot of things at play, like there is definitely the cultural dynamic in terms of having like families or having a sense of, again, like I said, shared community. And it kind of varies all across the continent as you look from like urban to rural as well.
And I think some of the other factors that do play into, I guess determining some of the consequences for us as a continent is there's so many, first of all, languages. So even the idea of expressing myself on the continent, it's such a it's not as straightforward as it is in continents where it's like predominantly single language. And I think within the language aspect, there is also the trait of our city of cultures, like you mentioned.
I mean, we have two major ones in terms of, the lingua franca in Nigeria. You're about how say, IBO? Because I don't like focusing on my mother tongue, which is a and that also plays a part. And there's also the, the religious aspect as well, where it is roughly split into 50% Christian, 50% or something. Even within that too, there is some degree of variance in terms of actually, having some sort of, I guess, common understanding for a certain thing.
So there are a lot of dynamics and demographics, really, that are the reason why everything's a lot more complex, but I don't necessarily fault it as the reason why there's either a lot of corruption or a lack of structure or lack of prosperity. I just feel like it's one of those things where I could easily slip into understanding and recognizing that as more of a strength as, as opposed to, a hindrance.
So specifically succinctly saying it's, I guess, suffice to say, would be thinking of it more as adversity breeds all the opportunities for further prosperity. Like we had a huge monolith, it would probably be a lot more difficult for us to actualize a lot of opportunities at the scale that we're doing, at the pace we're doing right now, whether it's mining or just economic development.
So I think really all the I guess, all the dynamics that we have in place in terms of complexity and all the factors and demographics that we have this kind of parcel of the reason why I feel like we're going to be really at the forefront of the world in terms of ushering in a new era for the whole world of abundance. Unlike proper, is a proper state, economically speaking, and kind of defining what it means to be a person in 21st century.
Really? Yeah. I mean, can't wait to see how this plays out. Like, yeah, I know we have four seats, so yeah, yeah, we have front row seats and it's absolutely speaking of front row seats. Like, are you doing a lot of conferences this upcoming year too? Like, are you traveling a lot? Yeah. We'll see. I mean, obviously as you guys know, like with conferences, it's, you know, balancing out productivity as well as, you know, making that productivity known or kind of helping us. So we'll see.
I think it's definitely too early for me to know based on the timings. But again, it seems this year there will be some conflicting conferences. So I would take off some of the roster from my list and schedule. All right. And are there any other subjects that we haven't covered yet that you that you'd like to to dive into? I mean, briefly would be on the, on the investment side on the continent.
Like, I know we've talked about both the development side, open source, the system being open, some of the practicalities from mining. I think another aspect that's interesting too, is on the placement side in Africa, like pretty much have a large fintech ecosystem here in Africa, for obvious reasons that might just mark. So we sort of sense that people have been trying to solve the money issue here on a continent.
And I think with regards to that, what I would suggest in brief is I have a mix of three things that I'm seeing. So one is a flip thing that's happening from the fintech space being, you know, where Bitcoin was spread out of the opposite. So Bitcoin becoming the super for fintechs.
And I think that's going to take shape specifically 2025 onwards in terms of people starting to understand their fintech companies from the standpoint of Bitcoin, whether it's treasury management or just for sure, competitiveness or staying afloat in terms of being a competitive company, integrating Bitcoin at some point are there. It's on, again, like I said, treasury management or just leveraging the like network for institutions or things around that.
And I think you will start to see some of those companies also looking at Bitcoin mining, not just like mining specifically, but software tools, services around Bitcoin and infrastructure around Bitcoin mining. And I'd say in terms of the terms of the general investment outlook, I would say Africa is definitely one of the regions that people should keep a keen, keen eye on, especially in the Bitcoin space, for obvious reasons. One is the share I'm on Twitter.
Really, like I mentioned, is one of the reasons why it would likely reflect the most accurate definition of what it means to be a company. The two again, because of this someone diversity in I guess I see as well. It would be likely that the most bleeding edge in terms of innovation. It's not one of those things where we're just talking, you know, out of our assets, one of those things that has actually materialized over the last couple of years, well, there's so much ink real with USD code.
So every lightning network all the way up to, you know, tandoor or some of these other things I do, I think we're going to see even more projects come out of that. Craig, that's that, that whole, understanding of there's so many challenges that are uniquely African, which can only be solved by folks on the continent. So I think on the investments, there's going to be a lot of these companies that mimic that.
I think the only question would be balancing all the innovation and all the tech that's going to come out with actual viable business models and I guess the standpoint from investors. But on the consumer side, we're definitely in for a huge ride in terms of experimentation, a lot of innovation on the ground. So stuff is going to get really, really exciting on the continent. But, Luke, I thought you were going to say something to this. Sorry, I don't know why you were waiting. If I don't know why
I did that. Yeah. No. Okay. No. No. Great to hear. I mean, I mean, I think the, I think the, investment angle is, is an interesting one. I mean, the attractiveness of any, place, generally, any market generally is, it's kind of it's funny that it's all skewed, basically.
We're, we're we're pretty much in a, in, a state where the, the US government, by their printing money in and all of their systems of foreign aid and everything completely skews the market of, of where to invest money, who to invest money in, what regions of the world to invest money in? And, well, I, I certainly hope that that Bitcoin becomes a leveler there. And yeah, I mean, I guess, it sounds like you, you, you see that happening
as, as well, right. Like, that, that as things the, the concept of fairness whenever we talk about this in the Bitcoin space is not fairness in terms of forced redistributed fairness is just it's just, skewing the system. Right? So is that is that kind of what you think is going to happen here 100%. Like it's just the equality of opportunity?
You know, and I think for a lot of us on the ground, especially whether we're entrepreneurs or stakeholders and just being African is because of the fact that Bitcoin is global, like you're the king and something that works everywhere in the world.
So it's not a case where we're building something and then hoping it gets to the stage and maturity level, that it could talk to the rest of the world somewhere where infrastructure has been built for the future, that's built, you know, by the future really pretty much of the emphasis on the ground, but also for the future, really, in the sense that soon as you're able to contribute to this, you're contributing to bettering not just the lives of Africans, but everyone else around the world.
I think this whole collaborative nature and kind of the collaborative effects of Parliament in just the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole, I think, is one of the things that's missing on the continent in terms of providing that level of opportunity that we're talking about, and not just trying to redistribute wealth. No. Like, rules without rulers is really equality, towards the law.
Like if the rules are the law, like then, then we're all equal, like, and, yeah, it's that's a way to look at that, I guess the hundred percent and the permissionless nature, I think as well, of both the development and just being involved with Bitcoin is a huge one as well, because that's one of the reasons why we're able to Keenan honestly even have this conversation.
Like if I had to request for permission from the Nigerian government to start Bitcoin development to get it more Bitcoin space, things would have be radically different.
So I think for for a lot of people around the world, especially in the continent, I think that level of empowerment that comes with not having to ask for permission to be a useful person in the world are just contribute to this price, which has been a huge key motivator for a lot of us other developers, entrepreneurs, or just people who use Bitcoin. Now, the the day that you have to ask permission to do anything in Bitcoin is is the day the Bitcoin dies.
So fortunately, like I don't know if that's ever the case. If you ever need a government approval to do anything with bitcoin then is it you with that is not bitcoin anymore? I'm sorry the project is over, but that's not happening anytime soon. Is it? If we do our work and not know if we care, if we stay vigilant and know run our nodes and so on and so forth. Yeah. Abu Bakar, it's been great having you on a great conversation.
Are is there anywhere else you want to send our listeners or anywhere you want to direct them to? Oh, I'd say for those that are listening that are either on the continent or looking to get involved, the involvement, I'd say follow, you know, be trust stack our website to take a look at the work we're doing for X and to get on nostre as well. And personally, just the developments on the ground. I catalog that in Forbes catalog for digital assets and just generally just keeping up.
Like I tend to say a lot about this. So there are nostre I hate 1999 same as X and that's pretty much it. I think, the last thing would be just taking a look at Africa more concretely like and taking a pulse of it. Just to check in because it's not likely going to dictate, continue to dictate really what happens in the rest of the world. Like there's so much saturation everywhere else. And Africa's really smart.
It's a lot of like room and freedom really, to properly innovate and other press like Latin America twin, you know. So I say keep an eye on that. So last question, why do you hate 1999? I was born in 1999 and I joined X when I was 11. So the combination of those two things, I guess for me, I thought was cool at times, seemed like a weird emo. But yeah, it's one of those things like, consequences of joining social media at an early age. I guess. Okay. Yeah. Luke, any more questions? No.
Thanks. Aboubakar. This is been a great conversation. So, yeah. That said, check out everywhere you've, you've already directed people to and, yeah. Thanks again for joining us. Thanks so much for having me, guys. Hope to see you again soon in real life. So yeah. Thanks, guys. Thanks again. This has been the Bitcoin Infinity Show. Thank you for listening.