Spanning the entire globe, involving hundreds of different cultures, explaining the same phenomenon by different names. The nature of the footprints, namely their remarkable insistency, their bio mechanical appropriateness, you know, those aspects that are are extremely compelling. Hey, everybody, welcome to the Bigfoot Influencers podcast. I'm Dana and I'm Tim. Welcome everyone, and we are super excited to have on doctor
Jeff Melgrim today. We're very excited. But first we have some we wanted to welcome to our podcast, and we also to welcome you to the Untold Radio Network where we have lots of other great shows besides just ours, so make sure that you check them out. Also, I would also like to bring up something. Jeremiah Byron from The Bigfoot Society left a very good review for you in your book. Yeah, make sure you check out he did
a nice he did. He dropped an episode on his network, so check out the Bigfoot Society podcast and he did he did a review of the book. So thank you Jeremiah. We appreciate he's friend of the show and just a good friend, so we want to thank him for that. Thank you. So shall we introduce our guests, yes, you should go ahead on nervous So, I mean, we probably don't really need an introduction. But you know, today's doctor Jeff Meldrum. As we all know, he's to
go to academic when it comes to the subject to Bigfoot. He's a professor of anatomy and anthropology at Idaho State University, I think for maybe third years. In addition, you know, he's you know, he's been involved in this subject a subject to Bigfoot for probably the same amount of time, at least, you know, from the mid nineties. We're gonna talk about that
a little more. You know, he's featured in countless documentaries TV shows going all the way back to Monster Request and Sosquatch Legend meets Science, and there's some some really cool stories around that too. I'm not sure if we'll have time to get to that today, but he just and overall he's just one of the nicest guys you know you'll meet. He's approachable, he's just we just just love him. He's just a cool guy. So he's definitely a
no drama mama, yeah for sure. And so he really doesn't need an introduction, but we're gonna without any further ado, let's bring in doctor Jeff. Hi, doctor Jeff, thank you so much for being here with us. My pleasure. Thanks for the invitation. Yeah, we're so super exciting. So and thank you for being you know, Jeff. Doctor Jeff was part of the book and he was very gracious with his time and definitely was a wonderful experience had having him in volume one of the books. So thank
you again for that. Yeah. Yeah, so let's you know, well, let me I gotta say this, Jeff. You know, when I when I did the book, there was a couple people that I was because
so so how the book came came about. You know, I I interviewed you, doctor Jeff, and a bunch of other folks, and then I I, you know, it was an audio or video interview, said, I transcribe interviews and I put it in the words and and I, you know, one of the there's two people I was really really extremely nervous of sending my edits off to and it was and you were one of them,
and Lauren Cale mean was the other one. Lauren, if you're listening, But to my surprise, I mean I was you know, you know, everything I got is he gonna and and it came back with not a ton of edits, so I was I was pleasantly surprised. He was nervous. Yeah, I was definitely nervous sending it to you. So well, I'm glad it turned out. Well, it was fun to relive that I was reading it just the other night. In fact, I was going through and
making sure that I wasn't the only one. You asked, you know, what were my favorite hobbies and exactly I listened to and that sort of thing. So it's fun to see that side of some of these people that I've rubbed shoulders with but haven't had the you know, the luxury of really getting to know on a social level to a great degree. So's it's fun sharing those insights, right, And I think, you know, it goes back to one one and you probably don't remember because you you you speak to You
talked to thousands of people, so I won't take any offense. But when I first met you, and I was just not really into the subject, and you and I had we were in Ohio at the big Foot conference, and you and I had a ton of conversations just about not nothing about Bigfoot
and it was. It was amazing. I love people. I love learning about people, and we just talked about family and travel and all kinds of things, and I think that just I want I wanted one of the things I want to do in the book is to remind everyone, the readers that hey, these are our moms and dads and husbands and wives and and and all kinds. They're just We're just people, you know. So it's really cool. So I did like that. So yeah, that was super cool.
So actually that was one of our first questions you were going to ask. But maybe you can tell our listeners real quick, doctor Jeff, like, you know, share a little bit about yourself, like your you know,
your personal life, your your work life right. Well. Uh, As from a professional perspective, I'm a full professor of anatomy and anthropology here at Idaha State University, and my that means I took a degree in anatomical sciences with an emphasis in physical anthropology, so I teach human gross anatomy at the graduate level primarily, although recently i've been I was tapped to help develop an introductory anatomy and physiology course, which has been really an interesting experience having
spent you know, literally decades working with overachieving graduate students in a highly competitive program, you know, the best of the best of the best with honors, sir, you know, to a fledgling freshmen coming in finding their way, you know, through registration and setting up their curriculum and so forth. It's been an interesting experience. It's been fun. It's been fun. I
can imagine, I can imagine. Yeah. We recently spoke to well, I spoke to Chris Spencer and he was mentioning, you know, he was when he was a freshman in college at nineteen. He studied over under doctor Gerva Krantz and had no idea in the beginning that he was a big guy. So it's it's just funny how the life comes full circle sometimes it is. Yeah, yeah, I In fact, it's it's always kind of interesting.
You know, a student will come in for an office hour and you know, see things like what you see over my shoulder there on the wall and look at that, and they they start to wonder what you know, and then ask interesting questions and it at leads to an interesting conversation. But it for most students, it doesn't take long for the word to get around. I think I have a reputation and they're always saying when you get a lecture on big foot. So in fact, with my occupational and physical therapy
students, we often there. There used to be a point in the curriculum where I actually one of the final lectures was on the determinants of gate what are the we break down and unpack how does we walk on two legs and the adaptations of the skeletal system and muscular system and so forth. And I would actually show the Patterson Gimlin film and have them pick out the distinctions from human typical human gait that they could observe there. And then we also used
it kind of just as a fun exercise in identifying surface anatomy. I said, now start at the head, right at the crown, go down to the toes, and I want you to identify as many anatomical landmarks, muscle groups, bony landmarks and so forth that you can see. And they're amazed, you know, because at first it's like, ah, you know, I've seen that, But then they start to scrutinize it. And of course I have a much better copy than a version of anything that they've ever seen.
On television and they'll start going, yeah, I can see the trapezist, and there's the deltoid, and you know, the erector spiny muscle group and and just right on down and they're just they're just flabbergast. So it's it's always fun. But some now, because we discovered a few years ago that we actually were teaching school for a week and a half longer than any
other institute of higher education in the state or elsewhere. Somehow an extra week and a half it crept into the calendar, so they cut that off, and that took away several of my slots for lectures, and so one of them that unfortunately sacrificed, was that kind of summary summary lecture on gate.
So I will sometimes do an evening seminar for the physical therapy students, in particular the ones that are always the most keen, it seems, you know, and they'll bring in a couple of pizzas and we watch I do a PowerPoint presentation. I usually show the film and bring in a few casts, and you know, at this point they've learned enough anatomy that they really can start to appreciate what they're seeing, both in terms of the functional morphology of
the foot and as that relates to the footprints. But again, analyze seen the PG film from from a very functional biomechanical perspective. It's it's it's really really quite interesting to see their reaction. Yeah, it's interesting because to see you grooming new bigfoot researchers or even if they're not, at least opening their eyes exactly. Yeah, yeah, it does. It is positive on on
several fronts. But yeah, and I've had students here come back years later and and either share experiences they've had in the interim or or tell me how that really peaked their interest. And they've they've done all this investigation on their own, and so yeah, it's always fun to see, you know, like they say, you cast your bread on the water and it comes back. It sure does. Every once in a while you have an interesting confirmation
of that. Right. So, so outside of obviously your your profession and and the things that you do for the bigfoot world, which were all I mean indebted to, what else does doctor Jeff do when he if he has free time? Yeah, Well, obviously the biggest investment of time and energy and resource is my family. I have six boys of my own and then through remarriage, I've added two more boys and step sons and a step daughter finally after six failed attempts on. So you know it, there was just
never a lot of spare time. I would be off doing some things, and especially during the summer, oftentimes or most of the time, the kids were not well, they were interested and they would always you know, if we ever had a visitor at the house, John Minzinski or whatever, you know, they were always fascinated. And if we were watching something on television, they were glued to it. But they were very into athletics and and so it was soccer and lacrosse and and juggling that we were soccer moms and
dads and and with six kids. I mean, there was one year we actually thought we were going to have to put a limit, and so we said, okay, you know, you you and you get to play soccer this year, but the other three are going to take a sabbatical. That that proposition went over like a lead balloon. Obviously, we had to think ways to be you know, the two of us to be in three places at one time. So there was a lot of farming, kids out and
shared rides and carpooling. There were you know, other families and similar situations, but you know that those were my saturdays, right, yeah, pretty many years. And you know when you when you have six, I always felt it was always concerned that they all all felt like they were getting enough
attention from Dad. And so, you know, we try to on a rotating basis, or double up somewhat still rotating, take one or two of them out for a special activity, whether even if it was just going down to the to the Arctic Circle to get a you know, a tasty freeze, not a taste frees another a soft or something real Arctic circle. Okay, because for a second, I was like what. There were a couple of occasions where they did go with me on on outings. I remember I
had a really good fun time with one of them. We went up close to uh, let's see where I was it Driggs up on the Idaho Wyoming border, and there was a fellow up there who had some rural property, well more rural mountain property. Everything around here is pretty pretty rural, but and claim to have had some some activities. It was more I think, more imagination than reality. He was showing me, you know, where it
had supposedly come and and and pulled off green sprigs on the trees. Well, it was it was, you know, I've quickly found moose tracks, and it was you would see the nip, you know, of the moose have lower teeth that they don't have up teeth. They just have that palette and so you can see on the bark where the bottom teeth scrape and the knit as they feed on those little green terminal buds. So he was, you know, it's always an exercise in destonte diplomacy. Tried to carefully and
gently point these things out. And you're so good at that, doctor, Jeff, I must say I used to be better. I'm getting less patient, more impatient, I think with compared to everybody else, you're really at that. So you know, if you can make it an exercise in self discovery, then it's it's a little less embarrassing, but definitely. And yeah, and I was just gonna say, just you know, getting like getting
back to the bigfoot thing. So I don't know if this happens to you, but sometimes it happens to me where you run into people who are like, what's a bigfoot? Like, it's not very many people who say that. I mean, the last person that happened to was a girl from South America. So so she wanted me to explain to her what this was. And so I was thinking to myself, how would doctor Jeff explain that to somebody who's never heard of a bigfoot? Right? Oh, how would I
Yeah, you were being me vicariously. Well, you know, it's it.
Sometimes it depends on the audience on who's receiving the information, because you know, for if it's someone who has a little more savvy about the history of science and anthropology and so forth, it's I if I can establish a context for the proposition of a relic hominoid that is a branch of this very bushy, bushy family tree that has persisted alongside us, and although isn't acknowledged, is you know, maybe represented in the in the fossil record by one
form or another. I mean, take for example, the the hobbit Homo floresienzes. You know, it's it was so interesting to see the kind of waffling and shuffle, well not not necessarily, some were waffling. Some of the actual discoverers, the paleontologists, anthropologists involved, We're actually quite keen on the subject, quite aware of the subject of the ring in deck or other
other monikers for these diminutive hominins in Southeast Asia. And we're quick to acknowledge that, say that by by saying, you know, these the locals have been telling us all along, as we've been digging in this gate that they're you know, why kids kind of like, why are you looking for bones?
They live right up there in the mountain, you know. They they they already had a concept of these these little hairy people that that they kind of held in deference because they could be really obnoxious and aggressive sometimes that one of the names, you know, indicated their habit of gobbling things up. They would leave offerings out on these wooden plates, and they'd eat not all of the offerings, but they would crunch up the plates in the swall,
apparently, but according to their stories. But the point is here, we've got something where there's this now established fossil record and there's this otherwise ostensibly folkloric figure, and it is just so remarkably correlated that you can't help but be
tempted to connect the dots, and perhaps justifiably so. I just recently reviewed a recent book by doctor excuse me, doctor Gregory Fourth who's now retired from the University of Alberta, and his research emphasis was he did his doctorate on the island of Flores. He was working down in a different region from where the Homo Floresians this remains were discovered. But he drew attention to the fact that of all these sort of mythological figures, there were some that were,
as he called it, empirical. They were the descriptions were so matter of fact, so pragmatic. It didn't have the qualities of the spirits or phantoms or so forth. They they were always described in you know, very corporeal, very flesh and blood terms. And so in his most recent book, he wrote a very excellent it's a bit heady, it's a bit expensive, although now once it came out in paperback, it's a little more accessible to your average reader. But it's a very scholarly book. And so he wrote
more a book directed more to a general audience. Connecting those dots, and you know, he acknowledges this is a largely a book about stories. It's it's eyewitness anecdotes, it's the folklore that surrounds this topic. But when you compare the traits, you know, go down a list, tick off characteristics that produce a profile for the Ebu go Goo, the oregpendec the end two on the one hand, and this relic australopithesene or very early Homo. The
the correlation the is just it's just undeniable. I mean, it's strength. So and I think doesn't he mention that if if, if they if they still don't exist. I think didn't he mention that, you know, they could have been as recent as one hundred years or so, that they could have been around well, sure, yeah, there this burial site around which a number of the traditions revolved. There's actually a cairn of stones that marks the place where some of them were extirpated and buried. But see there but
a male and female reportedly escaped and headed north. So they left it left the door open for there's still to be others. But that this two hundred years ago. So although in his more recent book where he's actually emphasizing not the Goro go Go, but the but the other one, it's I always get the name, it's a fie or something like that. It's different,
a different name, but obviously describing the same thing. There still are contemporary reports that are remarkably consistent and very matter of fact, So I kind of digress from your original, but it did, And I'm it's so funny because you always go into such interesting other things, thank God. But yeah, do me a favor, doctor Jeff. Just pretend I'm a person and I'm like, what's bigfoot exactly? And don't explain it to me like an anatomy
student or an anatomy professor. Explain it to me like who I am? Right? Well, I still I mean again, if you're asking me, you know, then I mean I try to tell people to because it dispels so much of the baggage. And I sort of explain in very simple terms, a relic hominoid. We are members of the superfamily of a taxonomic group that includes that the large body tailss primates, the chimps, the gorillas, and near rings, and we're part of that same superfamily, the hominoid Ea.
So a hominoid is a member of that family, and the name derives from human like creatures and relict with a T is used in biology to indicate a population a species whose population numbers and distribution is much restricted compared to the past. It's held on. It still survived, but not nearly with all
the extent and glory that it once had as a species. So instead of evoking this image of something on the cover of a tabloid magazine at the supermarket checkouts stand, you have this very rational objective concept of species of human like
primates, large bodied tail as primates that have survived. I mean, we look at the at the great apes today and many of them, especially like the Orengutan, the mountain gorilla, they're just hanging on to existence, survival like their fingernails, and they are themselves relict species that are now restricted to
very small areas in forest refugeia in equatorial regions of the globe. We think that Bigfoot, abominable snowman, the Yeki, the ring Pendec, the Almaski of Russia, that these are relic populations that are now restricted to very small areas of day distribution, fragmented areas of distribution with much lower numbers enough to sustain well perhaps, I mean, they're again much like the the Evu Go
Go, the the Almasti. The reports of the Almasti, according to the local people's are very rare and far between, you know, infrequent, and many of them say that they're probably extinct. They're probably no more. I haven't been for generations. But but that's that's one way to think about it. I mean, that's a great that was a great answer. Actually, you did a great job, doctor, because I know it's so hard for you to not sound smart. Well you sounded smart. I'm just saying,
like, like super smart. But here's a question. So the next question would come back at you because I love I know, we can get you know, all into a lot of the you know, cheap discussions, but I always like to bring it back to maybe new viewers, people who are interested in become interested in the subject. So the next question that person might ask you, doctor Jeff, is so why do you think this thing exists out there? What kind of evidence do you have? What you know,
what are your thoughts on that? Well? What what drew me into it in a professional capacity and not just a you know, an avocational interest is my research emphasis, which is the evolution of human bipedalism, our habit of walking on two legs by two pads feet two footed walking, and so that means I'm you know, I'm studying not only human subjects to understand our modern form of walking on two legs, but I'm looking at at comparative models of
the way in which the great apes move. I even my doctoral dissertation since since hominin fossils are so rare and unless your advisor is digging them up himself, it's hard to get access to them. So I had to kind of come in the side door, and I looked at terrestrial ground moving adaptations in
monkeys in African circapithesenes, the baboons and the caqus and so forth. And then what I did is characterize the way in which a quadruped walks on the ground, A primate quadruped one that previously was adapted to clamoring about in the trees, much more like a you know, like a capuchin monkey from South America versus a hominin that has come down from the trees and now walks on two legs. Those things that they have in common are common responses to walking
on the ground. The things that are different are those things uniquely associated with walking on two legs instead of four. So it was an interesting way to kind of get at the at the question from a side door, and in many ways I think helped me to appreciate those very distinctive characteristics of the human condition that were sometimes overlooked or or underappreciated by by those that hadn't looked at that that outlier group of quadrupedal terrestrial monkeys. So I did it again.
What was the question? It's okay now that the question was explain it. Yes, perspective, it's the footprints, you know, that I'm most interested in, and that's what really set the hook. I mean, I had the not unique but rare privilege of examining not one or two ambiguous, equivocal imprints in the ground, but to examine witness firsthand remarkably fresh footprints comprising a trackway consisting of thirty five forty five absolutely clear prints in the mud. And
it was it was an AHA moment, you know. I jokingly referred to it as that to compare it to that Eminem's commercial where they and then Santa Claus walk into the same room in front of the Christmas tree and Santa does
they do exist? And of course they say, oh, he does exist, and they all it felt almost like that, I mean, that realization based upon the impression of the impression pardon the pun, but the impact of these remarkably animated footprints that that, you know, the only conclusion was, my gosh, a sasquatch actually walked by here last night or this morning. You know, they were that fresh, they were just a matter of hours old. I knelt down. You could still see in the very fine sediment.
You could see skin ridge detail, which was quickly fading because it was overcast and kind of drizzling a little bit was washing out a little bit of that fine textured imprint. But the pressure ridges, the toe slippage, the displays, the tension cracks, you know, the extrusion artifacts were all indicative
of a remarkably animated, a very lifelike footprint, I mean. And if that may be lost on some of your listeners, it unless you you busied yourself with the you know, the art of tracking to where you can recognize you can see that track for what it is for the record of the dynamic interaction of the foot through the course of a step with the substrate, with
the ground, the soil. So yeah, so basically, doctor Jeff, you seeing a footprint like that with your background and education and experience is like a normal person just seeing a sasquatch in front of them. Yeah, yeah, just about. I've often said that if if all I had or the footprints from the Patterson Gimlin film site, that that it's a remarkably well documented case and so pristine. In some instances the Rogers Rogers selected the flattest,
clearest Cristmas right and left that he could see there and cast those. Unfortunately, they did not show some of the dynamic They were closer to a more static mold of a foot, but by contrast and that kind of unfortunately a lot of the experts of the time there really weren't very many experts in hominin trackway analysis at that time in sixty seven, but they looked like they were the product of carved wooden feet, flat planks of wood, you know,
strapped to boots. But when Bob Tipmas came down and cast ten in succession, regardless of their quality, you know that the dynamic signatures then become all too evident. So can you explain that the flat foot? Because sometimes I hear that too. People look at that, they say, well that just that foot looks flat, and it looks like it's just a carving. Can
you explain that dynamic? Yes, yes, well, their foot is flat and that it lacks the longitude in the large that's one of the most, other than the size, one of the most distinctive architectural differences between their foot and our foot. The arch human foots of a quite recent innovation in harmon
and evolution. For millions of years, early Hormonans walked on flat, flexible feet, and some of the early examples, like the Layo totally tracks excuse me, the date to three and a half million years ago from East Africa show a mid tarsal pressure ridge indicative of a flexible midfoot without a fixed longitude and the large so and we could go into the biomechanics of that more, but at the point being so, depending on the substrate, depending on the
the you know, it's compliance, it's plasticity, depending on the forward impulse, the speed of walking, the placement of the foot. Some of the tracks do look remarkably flat as though, as do those that Roger cast Angst the ones that Bob tipmus cast one in particular I've drawn attention to that shows a very distinctive pressure ridge, a speed bump. People look at that and they think, well, that's an arch and not no, no, it's
not at all. It's it's that is a dynamic signature, not a negative space, but rather it's material that has been displaced by the heel of the foot or by excuse me, by the forefoot as the heel comes off the ground and loses contact. And you know, it's really stunning. For for a long time, people would criticize me and say, well, if that, if your interpretation's right, despite the fact that I had multiple other examples of correlations. But if that's right, why only one footprint there at the
film site shows it. And finally it occurred to me, well, I've got the three D scans. You know, I've examined these tracks. I know that they show it. So how can I show it to these other naysayers? Well, with the three D scans, we just composed an image where we rotate those scans, you know, ninety degrees and boom, eight
out of the ten show evidence of a mid tarsal pressure ridge. And then the real clincher was I had the chance the privilege of meeting John Crew, Jerry Crew's son, who is now the curator of that famous footprint from nineteen fifty eight, the big male down there in that region along the Bluff Creek drainage. And you know, the picture that's highly publicized is a noosprint.
And the reporter used an old fashioned camera with a bold probably flash, you know, boom, and that bright flash you can see the real strong shadow behind him in the cast. Well, it flattens everything out, especially the he's holding forward. It makes it look flat, but it can hardly recognize any topography that would otherwise show up if you had a strong side lighting.
Well, I had a chance to look at this cast. He had it wired into this shadow box, and he allowed me to disassemble the shadow box and carefully unwire the original cast and take it out and boom lo and behold, guess what it has a pressure? It has a pressure is that's just
as distinct as as as any from the Patterson Gilan film side. And it's in the same place, same slight orientation where it can't upward and outward towards the you know, the little toe side, the outside of the foot, because the joints that allow the mobility in the foot, there are two of
them. Uh, it's it's a compound joint between the ankle and the you know, the people are familiar with the ankle bone and the heel bone, but the two in front the tay listen and I'm sorry, the nvicular and the cuboid are are a little less commonly known terms, but they're the bones just in front of the heel bone and just in front of the ankle bone, and those two combine have a much greater range of motion than the human foot, which twists into a locked, stiff, stiff structure that acts as
a you know, more stable lever. But their flexible foot allows for a break, not a damaging, you know, injury, but a break an axis of flexion. And you know, this is a this is a remnant primitive trait that first was embellished from the primitive primate condition in these big bodied hominoids that would climb up vertical supports, gripping the the trunk with their big
toe opposite pilateral toes. Well. To maintain a grip while still levering the center of mass upward, you had to have a little bit of disconnect or a little bit of flexibility between the two segments of the foot, so it was a climbing adaptation. But if a chip comes to the ground when it walks because of that flexibility, you get that break still occurring. And the sasquatch has just never evolved and rightly so, never evolved in arch because of
its massive size. Is it increased in size and arch? You know, look at what happens to people who are excessively obese or are quite big. They often suffer from collapsed arches or painful But that's true, That is so true. So basically what you're saying, doctor Jeff, is that looking at
the I'm bringing this back to our movie people. So looking at you know, a big footprint, you can look at that and you can say, number one, that's not human, right, and number two, it's not fake because there's just too much going on there for any average Joe Schmo to be able to fake a print exactly, and to fake it in such a way. They're not just enlarged fac similes of a human footprint, but they are. They embody the precisely the adaptations that we would expect in a primitive,
more ape like species that has retained many of those primitive traits. I mean, it's lost the divergence of the big toe. But it has not evolved the longitudinal arch. It hasn't, you know, And we really didn't until our skeletons start started to lighten up. Our muscles became much less massive, less had less body strength than what we see in the non human primates.
So, and what's even more astounding than that simple correlation or that inclusion of those biomechanically sound principles, is that they exist in tracks that were discovered decades before the scientists were even talking about those features or had examples in the Hamon and fossil record to say, well, yes, in fact, you know Lucy, the famous Lucy with exaffarensis, was walking on flat, flexible
feet. See. And because of the insight that I had gained from looking at the sasquad tracks, I was beating this drum because I went back and looked at the Laya Toty tracks again with his fresh view and with this idea of the of a mid tarsal break, and I started looking at all of the skeletal remains and they had remarkable flexible in steps. But yet it took about ten or fifteen years for the science to catch up and acknowledge that,
yeah, although they don't acknowledge that I was right. As you know, he believes in bigfoot. How could he be right about anything you deal with a living fossil, right, yeah, exactly exactly. So another thing I
to ask about. So we're going going back to the trackway that gave you your aha moment, which I think was the Walla Walla trackway, so I guess, and just from your basically from your background and your profession, you could see that it was it was the same foot print or the same foot making the track, although the toast blaye could be different, or it could have it could have slid. Is that I mean, can you expand on
that a little bit? Uh, the same foot I mean as far as that that the integrity of that one trackway, right, yes, sure, oh absolutely. And that was what was interesting too, is you know, if these were simply the product of carved wooden feet, those feet are static, and sure you might get the superficial appearance of some variation due the differences in depth of the imprint or you know, or you know, sliding or whatever. The artificially elongates. Hard to try cat a stiff wooden foot that
doesn't flex or bend in any anyway. But there was so much variation. There were tracks that where it was walking rather evenly with the toes fully extended, and sometimes the lateral toes as is often the case in many examples I've seen, because they don't push off with their toes like we do. They
push off from the forefoot with a greater surface area. The toes are there for traction if necessary, to prevent backsliding, unless the substrate is remarkably soft and moist, as was the case in several examples that I examined on this occasion outside of wall wallet, I mean one where the toes slid a good four inches and the mud extrewed it up in between. You could see how
they flexed really tightly. In fact, on the fifth and the first the toes actually kind of it impressed so deeply into the soft mud profile imprints as you can see the sides of those toes and clearly see the individual segments of each of those outer digits, And it was quite clear that the little one
had three segments, as your little toe does. Our little toe has gotten so short and so small that it's hard to tell that this toe is every bit as long as my pinky finger, and the thumb the big toe as big as a bigger than my thumb, and it only had two segments. Now you ask, like like you were saying, your your average Joe on the street, did you know that your thumb only has two bones in it
and all the other of your digits have three three full engines. So a subtle detail like that, which is, you know, totally unknown to most people, and it's something that's in front of our face all day, he
would think noticed that. So those those kinds of things. Yeah, So, so there was no way that a pair of artificial feet could be responsible for the variation that you know, you would have to have at least five different sets, and then it would be very odd looking where you'd have some that looked identical and then suddenly it switches up to one, the one where all those are flexed, and then one where it's only half a foot you
know, because it's running on the front half of its foot and slipping in the mud, et cetera. I mean it was just there. I mean, there's they're just yeah there. When when you really pin it down, there is no way these things were hoaxed. There's just okay, So what are your other like professor colleagues like how do you because you're working at the university and then like you're walking down the hall and he's like there that guy
is like, oh my god, there's that crazy bigfoot guy. Or you know, like or even if they don't think you're crazy, where do they think you're missing? Like? What do they? What are I think that you're missing in this knowledge that you have. You know, I would say belief, but I know you know it exists because you have the evidence. But what do you say to your other colleagues? Yeah, I like to
say I'm convinced. I don't you know, you hate to say one percent because in science that rests upon a conclusive demonstration of a physical specimen, which we come up short. But it's interesting the reaction and there's a time element now. But the reaction has spanned the gambit from those who are fascinated and curious and supportive to those that are ambivalent because they're busy doing their own thing,
you know, like most of us should be. I mean, I don't know, but all of the faculty members, I mean I roughly know what area, I don't know what projects they're specifically working on, or what their graduate students are do it. And then there are those who get up every morning, it would seem, and think, hmm, how can I make life miserable for doctor meldrem to it was now thankfully they've either retired or moved on. I'm now the oldest member of my department. That's a good
feeling if you couldn't tell, yeah, I'm the patriarch. And we've got lots of new hires that have been you know that are assistant professors that have been here less than five years. And there's a certain you know, there's a certain degree of respect and deference that you would kind of expect to be normal. It's not like there's you know, whispers in the hall. There
was more open ridicule and and things said behind my back. I mean sometimes it was so bad that that the graduate students would pick up on what their mentors were saying about me, and then they would start promulgating that amongst their fellow gradudates. I had gradu students come into my office and say, you know, doctor Meldrim, you know so and so's shooting his mouth off all the time. Every time every opportunity, he says, you really need to
do something about it. And so, you know, I called up in one instance, I called up that graduate student's mentor and I said, hey, we've got an issue here. He's your student. You're responsible in part for his behavior, especially when he's getting it from you. Right, thank you, because this was one of the most antagonistic ones. And the next day there was a kind of a timid knock knock to knock at my door and in comes the graduate student and he sits down. He says, well,
I'm told I owe you an apology, and sincere right. You know, at first, yeah, it was kind of it was obviously forced. But I said, look, you know I can I can't empathize. I don't condone your behavior whatsoever, but I know where it's coming from. You know, you simply don't have any idea what I'm doing, and you're working off of rumor and innuendo. So come back here, lab let me show you. So I took him back and for the next twenty minutes thirty minutes,
I showed him the cast. I showed him that the anatomy, I showed him the interpretation. I showed him the remarkable. Uh, you know, repeat appearance of individuals and so forth and so forth, one thing after another. And he just sat there shaking his head saying I had no idea, and said, well that's the point. I mean, if you that is the point. You learn nothing else from this experience. Keep your trap
shut until you know something, you know. Yeah, we have a graduate student, so he's about to he was also going to become an assistant professor. Yeah, we were asked the joke, not the joke, I said, I said, I think because he's getting ready to post doc after he gets his in May. He's getting his PhD. I said, well I know someone and maybe get your job up and Idaho and it is by his
it is biology. Yeah. So but so yeah, he's and then then our other we have, our youngest is also uh he's in his going into his junior year of undergraduate school and he's in biology as well. So we have so I think we're going to force them to watch this. Yeah, because you, by far, doctor Jeff, are like the coolest, like you know, just like amazing detail oriented explainer. Ever, so they're going
to understand half of what you said. No, they're going to understand all of what you said, So I want to ask a couple of history questions and maybe maybe some fun ones. Okay, So you mentioned to me that you you were in China filming an episode of Monster Quests, right and you had to share a tent with the one and only Adam Davies, and it was an interesting experience. I thought that'd be a fun story to share with the audience. Can you share that? Yeah, sure, sure, I
had. I had a great uh uh set up at one conference when I was on a panel and and Adam was there, uh, and we're having a good time. He's always fun to uh to catch up with. But the question that was posed was what was the scariest experience you've ever had on an expedition? And so you know, in him sitting right next to me, I just had to tell it. So so we we were we had gotten a very rare opportunity to actually go into the Shenanjia National Reserve Nature nature
Park and uh and spend the night. They were gonna let us camp overnight, which was kind of undeard of, and and actually almost got the kabash at the at the last minute. We had there was some there was you know, one underling administrator who was kind of flexing his muscles and trying to exert some authority and make it difficult. So we almost got to derailed, but managed to get it through. So we've hiked back up in beautiful kind. I mean, it's it's it looks it felt like the Rocky Mountains.
The only thing was different that we don't have in the Rockies or the the large rhododendron trees, and you know, it's still you can find those in you go over to the Olympic Peninsula and there they are, and down in the southern forests, pine forests. But in any case, there was was. It was very reminiscent of the Rocky Mountains. And so because obviously you were having to travel light and when we're traveling international and everything, and you
can't really take a whole kit of camping gear. And so they had relied on a local fixer to make arrangements. And there was an investigator. He was an impressive man. He was just his his presence, in his stance. I said, this guy's got to be military. What he was he was. He was an officer in the secret police, one of the one of the training officers, and so he was very, very organized. But he had arranged the equipment, including our pup tent. It was it was,
you know, as you can imagine. I mean, I've lost a couple of inches due to collapsed discs in my lower back. So I'm just barely six foot. Adam I think is six two, and most of our group were in excess of six foot, and so you know, the average person out there was maybe about five eight average man, and so the tent would have been quite adequate for two of them, but you put Adam me, and so I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, you know, my
feet are gonna stick out the bottom. I really didn't need a tent, except that there was a threat of rain, and so Adam was standing up late. He was gonna be working the over at the spring that he constructed a little blind and they were gonna sit there with the thermal camera and see if anything came to the spring during the night. So he didn't show back up in camp until the wee hours of the morning, you know, probably
about two or three. But he climbs in and and so we're I just remember at one point I woke up, as you often, do you know? And I woke up and here was Adam's face. I mean literally and less than a week of wine. So I, you know, I kind
of quickly turn over. He wasn't spooning with me or something. We were there was room in here that when you rolled over, you'd catch the wall and it would bend the wall outward and pull the roof down right on top of this kind I mean, it's just I can just imagine what it looked like from the outside. But I I'm trying to turn over without flattening the tent. And I tried to imitate his voice, but it'll do a very good job. But elbows me and he goes, Jeff, move over,
you're squashing me. You have fun? Tells the story something he was. Yeah, he's such a fun guy. That's awesome. So do you wanna do you wanna tell us about? So? I want to talk about Actually one question is is so I'm going to try to pull this up on the screen. So if if anyone who does not know, uh, doctor Jeff's first book is this Sasquatch Legend Science, which we happen to have a copy here, is there going to be a part two? Oh sure, in
fact, more likely now than I just keep getting sidetracked. So when I was working, excuse me, furiously on the sequel I got, I was approached by Paradise K Publishing about writing the Field Guide, which grew out of at least my concept of a field guide on this subject, grew out of
their query. And then subsequent to that that was very well received, and so I was my sequel was going to be a project in which I cast the net more broadly to place sasquatch in the broader context of other relic commonoids. And so I was, you know, working furiously on that, and I've got and had been collecting and collating and organizing my materials and had the chapters outlined and largely fleshed out to the degree so that that book is probably
about two thirds done. I mean the figures alone, it's like the first book. You know, I'm very visual learner and teacher, and so there's like one hundred and fifty figures in that book. It's it's well illustrated, and you know, I thought, oh, I'll knock out these figures in a couple of weeks. It took me all summer, took me over three months to select and to crop and to mask and get the formatting, you know, even throughout, and write all the captions and give credit where credit
was due, or seek permission to use different illustrations. And it was a big chore anyway. So with the success of the Field Guide, I thought, well, man, that's such a good format. Let's do a shrunken head of what I'm working on now. And that's how the second Field Guide, the Guide to wild Men around the World. So that's kind of an abstract of what the next book will go will be. Well, then I got sidetracked with my series of activity books for young learners and had so much
fun. I mean it was it was just a fortuitous, you know, crossing of the stars. It's a funny, funny story how that finally came to be just real, real, short version was, I was approached by a licensing attorney inquiring on behalf of a client if I would consider having my likeness depicted in an action figure. I just what are you kidding me?
And that I thought about it. I thought, you know, wouldn't that be cool, you know, in field garb and then you'd have your binoculars and you'd have your little parabolic have vision, you know, flear and of course then you'd have to have the relic comonoid you're searching for. And then
there there you could have little plastic footprint casts. That too young. But when there were the collectible space coins and things that you would snap into this embossed plastic frame that you could pop them into and collect them, I thought, wouldn't that be great to have little accurate similes a footprint cast that you
could snap into these and there would be a little annotation or collection. Well, gee, then you've got to have a workbook, an activity book to go with each of these relic commonoids, and bring in the ecology and the geography. I mean, that's how I learned the continents and the mountain ranges where the forests were, was reading Ivan Sanderson's book over and over and over
again. Yes, describe all the biogeography, and I thought, could do all this stuff, and you could have activities and puzzles and stickers, and and then it's so funny because it sounds, well, what happened, it didn't. I'm given the long versions. You can tell them it didn't. They could license my image, but they couldn't patent an image of Bigfoot, so someone could come along and do a walkoff, and they couldn't control it enough, so they didn't think that would be marketable. So it kind of
fizzled and it languished well, to my chagrin. Everybody has action figures. There's a Lauren Coleman action figure. There's a I think it does have. Well, there's a guy. There's a guy I think he's down in Texas that doesn't. Yeah, but doctor Mildrom action figure. You know, I'm gonna have to fix that. I don't know, but I'm going to read this time. I'm past my prime now. I don't know if I want to. We should like pass out a petition and everybody could sign it.
And so anyway, this idea of the the activity books always kind of rattled around there in the back of my noggin. Here and and then I was asked to write a blurb for a book that was illustrated, written and illustrated by uh, well, his names he went by a pseudonym for but Glenn Evans, and he was also getting it published. I actually, I think I think I have to take credit for that directed him, referred him to uh a Paradise k as a potential publisher for his work, and I was
so taken by his illustrations. You know, it's kind of illustrations that I
wanted in my activity book. And I broached this, this project idea with him, and he was just delighted because he had always wanted to do something just like this anyway, so we threw in together and came to an agreement, and I would crank out the concept, you know, just composite it and cut and paste and patchwork it together with with UH you know, borrowed placeholder illustrations or quick sketches and in a PowerPoint so I could edit and move
things around real easily, and then wrote the text the copy, and off I'd send it to him and man in short order, matter of a couple of weeks, here was the finished product, with all the illustrations re drawn, you know, all this original art, and it was just amazing, and so I had so much fun. Well, and it was his fault because he wrote, I mean I focused it on Sasquatch obviously, and he wrote Sasquatch Edition, you know, Doctor Meldrum's Activity and Learning Book for Young
Readers or whatever, and then and then said Sasquatch edition. I go, well, if there's a Sasquatch edition, there's got to be a Yetti edition. Almost addition, and I even got to which I had kind of ignored in my previous writing. The Yawi tackled that with a lot of equivocation, because it's a it's it's there's a lot of unknowns, a lot of inconsistency. I mean, the one page says it all where there it's a montage of all of the footprints attributed to the Yawi, and no two of them
are anywhere near the same ballpark. They're you know, three toed, four toed, five toe, divergent toe, non divergent toe, you know, around like an elephant, long, like a lizard. I mean it's just like a kangaroo more than a lizard. Anyway, So the short I keep getting sidetracked. Now, it's easy to do that with us well as far as coming up with a with a number two, a volume two sequel.
But then Doug Hicheck now has proposed to doing Sasquatch leg Me science too, to kind of bring it up to speed on the latest and greatest evidence and advances in various analytical techniques and so forth, and so we were we were on the phone brainstorming. He was picking my brain for ideas and what are the what should we include in this chapter? In this chapter, and he said, well, now you're going to write the companion volume, right, so I'm trying to get a jump on it. So that's a very different
that's almost like a second edition of Sasquatch Meat Science. It's not really a sequel. It's just an expansion, uh, you know, revised expanded edition of Sasquatch Legend Meat Science kind of is what it's it'll end up being, I think. But yeah, and if you have to write your book at the same time that Doug does something, good luck because he does not sleep like he is the hardest worker. He's got like a thousand things going on, right. Yeah, he's amazing. Keeps us on our Yes he does.
And a quick side note about Glenn. I just met him not via email and social media, about a week or so ago and didn't realize that he was the graphic artist on those books until it just came out. I guess, oh, yeah, this is these are my books. I said, oh wow, interesting small world. But yeah, I just we're talking about you know, yeah, he's going to send me one of his books.
So that's just really cool, madam. And didn't even realize who he was because he had the pseudo name you know, yes, exactly, Bill is Strong. Yeah, so well, so well, doctor Jeff. We don't want to keep you because we know that you're still Are you still in your office at work? I am, yeah, but you're you You've got a three hour time difference, right, two hours? Okay, so you're okay? Oh yeah, I can keep you longer. No, maybe we have time for one more question. Do you want to ask the questions?
Do you want to ask? I kind of like this question. This might be really hard for you to answer shortly, but try do your best. So because this is very interesting to me. And then this was a question that Tim and I were thinking about last night. And so in your opinion, in your professional opinion, why why have a humans developed so differently from other living primates? Like why are we so smart? Yeah? Yeah, well, as Bubba says, we're not smart because we pay taxes. Oh,
I have jobs. But seriously, like we are so so smart, We're doing crazy, crazy stuff. And then you still have other primates who are hanging around in the trees. And you know what makes us so smart? Yeah, well, you know, without delving into spiritualism and religion and so forth. I mean, if you are so inclined, there's that whole dimension that what we see is just simply the expression of natural laws that were authored by a higher power, you know, and that that we are that
the circumstances were were manipulated. I mean, it's basically a divine ancient astronauts hypothesis. You know, it's the idea of a more advanced being, whether it be God or whether it be an alien or manipulated circumstances. Because see, evolution isn't random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is very directed directed in the sense that it it channels the variation from the variation those that
are best suited to survive in the current conditions. But the system is so elegant because by continually preserving variability, even though there's the cost to those who aren't well adapted. It's like having an insurance policy. And I tell my students, you know, how many of you have a car? Do you have insurance? Well? Is that a financial drain on you? You know is, in other words, there's a cost to you. But what would the cost be if you got in an accident, a catastrophic accident, and
didn't have insurance. So same with evolution, we're facing as a biasphere. We face a changing environment and if we're too locked in to the most optimal adaptation or condition strategy right now down the road, those conditions may change and if we don't have the flexibility or the variation to fall back on, then
we go extinct species. So going back, stepping back to that notion of random mutation, scientists, geneticists in particularly, are now starting to hone in on those particular genes that seemed to have the greatest impact on brain development. And basically it looks like what prompted those bursts of brain development, it wasn't just a gradual increase, you know, like you're exercising your muscle, but rather a duplication of a gene caused just an inordinate increase in brain size.
And so those random events, if they're purely random, you know, if there is no interference on some level, it was the luck of the draw, basically, the luck of the roll of the dice. Rather, you know, the lottery ticket that gave some ancestor a duplicated gene that caused increase in brain size. Now there would be obviously some gradual accumulation of the effects of that, but perhaps I mean, it wasn't well, you know, it could could be quite abrupt. Who knows, I mean, how that
transition would have taken place in a in a prehistoric setting. But you know, that's that that if you want to take a purely naturalistic approach without appealing to extraordinary factors or influences, then it's a matter of genetics. And that's the thing that you know, people are understanding. I mean, back back when I was a student, it was just starting to give way. But back then it was the the axiom in genetics was one gene, one product,
one protein. You know, it was thought that that that the DNA template was this essentially was a blueprint. It was, and now we've discovered no, it's a recipe more than a blueprint. And there's all kinds of other things that you know, it makes a difference how long you beat those eggs, you know, not just the fact that the eggs are there, or if the oven is preheated or not, or if it's at altitude. I mean, in other words, there's all these nuances and the expression of
genes are a tremendous interplay. And so now they've discovered that there are genes the control genes, So they're they're kind of the they're like rheostats. You can turn up the brightness, contrast the volume the hue and so forth, and and uh and can and control the rates or the timing of expression of genes that affect not only developmental trajectories, but but duration of of uh,
you know, the process of maturation or the growth. You know. We we kind of are on a similar trajectory when it comes to brain growth with chimpanzees, except though when chimpanzees sort of plateau, we just keep going as a result of those duplicated genes, We just keep going until we hit a
plateau much much higher. So every species that you know, it's rather than then view nature as it was often viewed in the past, as this scale, you know, the scale of nature with us as the acme, instead of rather viewing us as one terminal branch on this bushy tree, and organisms along each of those branches have been evolving in their own way to their particular
niche, their particular habitat, and as long as they're successful. I mean, that's the bottom line, is getting your genes into the next generation. And obviously we outsurvived some of the other Homo genus species, so there was others out there, so we just you know, that's that's what the exciting part is, this grandiose attitude that we are the end all and we are the lord and master of the of the planet. Whether we are or not.
I mean, there are other I'm convinced other bipedlehamanis, other twigs on this pushy tree that have persisted alongside us right up to the present. It's exciting, it's exciting, so awesome, We're so we're so excited to have you. So just real quick, before you go, though, what are some upcoming events that are going to be attending and how do people follow you and all that fun stuff? Well, the best way I try to post on my Facebook page when upcoming things. I don't have a web page per
se that I have those kind of things. I guess I should think about getting serious about doing that. The next event that I have is coming up in actually just a couple of weeks up in Spokane, there's a big outdoor expo and they have decided to include a Sasquatch element, so I'll be given a presentation in many a booth. It will be a very different experience, I think than a typical a Sasquatch conference, but there's a number of them
coming up. I'm really excited about our trip the crews up the Inside Passage to the Alaska Panhandle and the anchorage and back. That's something I've always wanted to do. And I think you know that coast of the British Columbia and southeastern Alaska if you haven't read Rob Ali's books on Yeah, wait are you talking about like the cruise ship cruise. There's the cruise cruise. Oh my gosh. So you're gonna be there, to doctor Jeff, Yeah, oh
my god. Tim has I've always wanted to go to Alaska, but Tim won't go. He doesn't like the cold. That's why I haven't been been to the state university yet. Well, there's going to be another event in mid Florida. Don't like the heat, so I don't want to go to Florida for the heat. He doesn't want to know you're going to Alaska. Okay, so that's super cool. So it's basically a cruise that can anybody
can go on. Well, the the organizer has blocked out, you know, a certain number of cabins and facilities for several evening presentations there when once the word got out other people who had booked because the cruise line sort of featured it on their web page. They have a Facebook page for each cruise so people can kind of get up to speed on what's going to happen and
so forth. At least that's what I've been told that haven't been there to the page myself, but I was told that they had publicized the Bigfoot talks, the Bigfoot events rather for the registered guests of the symposium, But other people who aren't specifically registered for the conference, who are going to be on the cruise got into this and they go, hey, you know, is
it going to be Can we buy tickets to this? He's looking at probably I mean an extra oh, I don't know, forty two one hundred people for all I know, you know, what the capacity of his auditorium is. He'll be able to sell it with others on a on a you know,
by event by a ticket. That's so super cool. Yeah, but then there'll be a short excursions there's this cruise has actually a few ports of call, but he's made arrangements to have activities, some of which are very sasquatch related and so forth, and or just to take in the habitat and be able to go and rub shoulders with some of us on a on a more informal basis. But it should be really interesting, you know, it should be really fun. And and obviously the the audience can can just google
search to relict with a T hominoid inquiry. Yes, that will take you to the Idaho State University landing page and there's a ton of just a ton of things on there. So I'd also recommend everybody do that as well. Yeah, a good way to keep up with some of the latest publications. It provides a venue for scholarly papers. Although now we've added a citizen science category and we have a representation Shelley coming to Montana's representing citizens science on the
board editorial board, and so we're encouraging non academics. You don't have to have those degrees behind your name to participate, you know, just be willing to accept some constructive criticism and guidance and editorial guidance and getting your your publication up to snuff. If it is still going to be reviewed, it's still going to be you know, critically evaluated for credibility and merit and so forth.
But you know, there's so much interesting stuff being done by quote amateurs, right, we want to encourage that to be done in a reliable way with integrity. We thank you so much, doctor Jeff for being on the show. We look forward to seeing you in the future. I'm sure we'll we'll catch up with you somewhere this year. But yeah, that's a shame, but we'll see you somewhere hopefully well. And I'm happy to come back and chat with you again sometimes. Yeah, that would be Thank you,
doctor Jeff. Take care, Thanks again for your time, have a great night. Thank you. Doctor Jeff is so cool. It's amazing, it was going to be. He's just not such a just love and he's he's very good at explaining stuff. I mean, I guess that's why he's a professor, you know, because he's teaching people. But I mean, like he's really good at explaining stuff. And even if you don't know all the lingo or all the everything. He makes it understandable definitely. So you guys,
thanks for tuning in. I hope you get a enough out of this. I mean, this is just an amazing episode. We appreciate each and every one of you. You guys are the best, and we're just having a blast on this. Of course, you know, every guest we have on here is amazing upcoming. We've got, you know, the one and only Doug Hicheck, so we may get it more into Sasquat's legend meet Science
too. Uh. And then we I think Bob Strain's coming up, Todd Prescott's coming up, We've got another witness that we you know, witness episode we may be doing. And there's just a ton of ton of fun people coming up. You know, I chatted with the one only Matt Pruitt, so hopefully we get him on the show soon. We're just gonna have fun and hopefully you guys are getting this is really we want to help make this educational. Hopefully even you folks out there who know a lot more than me,
hopefully you learn something new. I mean, I think even listening to Jeff today, hopefully there's something new that everyone picks up. So we just thank you guys again. Thank you, and hey, don't forget to follow us. We're on Facebook, we're on Instagram, We're on Twitter. You can also find Tim's book, where's your book? Getting right here? Tim's book The Bigfoot Influencers Member. We are not the influencers. We interview the
influencers. You can find it everywhere. Just sign it everywhere. Good to our website and then you can I've got it links to everything you could. There's autographed copies out there a certain bookstores, so we appreciate support. You guys are the best. Yep, we'll see you next. Thanks again. Sh