Best Picture Power Rankings. Plus: Is ‘Emilia Pérez’ Really a Front-Runner?

I'm Yasi Solid and I'm here to announce a brand new season of my Ringer original podcast, Bandsplane, the show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists to you and yours. This 10 babe? We're going across the pond. That's right, I'm absolutely chuffed to be talking about the music scenes of 80s and 90s Britain. I'm talking Magchester, I'm talking Baggy, I'm

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anchor man the legend of Ron Burgundy the godfather all for free. This is great. I know stream Pluto TV from virtually all your favorite devices all for free Pluto TV stream now pain never. I'm Sean Fantasy and this is the big picture a conversation show about Amelia Perez in the best picture race today on the show we are discussing Jacques Odyard's audacious new

hyper stylized musical crime saga trans coming of age family drama. It's Amelia Perez. We're taking stock of a fascinating for a change best picture race it's all up in the air right now so I've got two great awards season thinkers here today returning champion and ringer icon Joanna Robinson

and her old pal reunited and first time big picture guest Katie Rich Katie is the awards editor at the angler the host of the prestige junkie podcast she's been covering this awards game for many many years guys hi hey so happy to be here they get read language Joanna and with Sean Sean

we've been on a pot on my podcast together just reunions all over the place I'm so glad you guys are here um this has been a really interesting start to the awards race because I tend to think I have a pretty good handle on these things you've both covered this stuff for many years I can't recall

a time going all the way back to my 1990s reading entertainment weekly era I was like I don't really know what's winning so to speak what's in the lead what even the front runners to me are a little bit baffling and so the the movie that we'll talk about in the second half of this conversation

is one of those kind of confusion points for me in terms of it being a front runner and some curious I think to hear whether you guys think it is one but something has happened in recent weeks here in the United States of America which is there was an election Donald Trump was elected 47th president

yeah it's true Joanna yeah so that happens that's a great so everything's good about that and it did have me thinking about 2016 which is a monumental award season year in part because that was the year just five weeks after Trump was elected for the first time as president then moonlight

shockingly defeated law law land in the the great mixup of that season and that I think changed the Oscars forever I remember writing a column about it at the time that there had never been a winner quite like that and there are some people who read that win as a kind of reaction to the state

of the country maybe that's overreading it I'm not quite sure but I'm curious just as a starting point of this conversation do you guys foresee a response to the world at large in the potential best picture winner this year Katie I'll start with you I mean I've been saying for months like

everybody remember in 2016 everyone slightly lost their minds in the awards race and I think it's not overreading at all to be like there was this version of the story where a lot of land stood in for Trump and moonlight stood in for Hillary Clinton and like the further away we get from that

the more insane that the squirellation sound but the idea of supporting a movie that's about you know healing past trauma and just like allowing black people to start a best picture winner which a very rarely happened before like that was all mixed up in this like resistance era that was

just starting at that point like Merrill Streep got a standing ovation at the golden globes for talking about muscles I don't even remember like things the vibes were so strange and the thing I can't figure out you know we're like two weeks past or not even two weeks past the election now

is like it's definitely different this time there isn't the like resistance energy building there's not a like we all want to get behind a Nora because it's a story about a woman and women were defeated this election like it feels sadder more complicated scarier in some ways and I it only models the

picture like I thought we were going to wait until the election and then kind of take a breath and be like all right here's what we've got and like I feel less clear on it than I did before which is maybe appropriate for what 2024 has been like so far what do you think Joe you agree with that

yeah I think I don't understand what the tone is going to be at the start of next year because I think everyone is in this sort of not everyone but the people who aren't happy with the outcome of the election are in this sort of like which is many Oscar voters recoup space and and so that

makes me wonder if instead of sort of like spiky resistance we're looking for soothing something that feels soothing and uplifting and that's why I don't want to like jump ahead and things we want to talk about but I will just say like briefly I feel like the wicked narrative has just like

snapped into place as as part of that sort of like let's all rally around something that makes us feel warm and happy and uplifted which is not a knock on a Nora or anything like that but the like all that stuff is more complicated than the more simplistic offering of something like wicked so

yeah you if you asked me a couple weeks ago I would have had a very different answer but this that's where I'm sitting right now it feels like everyone I've talked to who is unhappy with the election results is seeking comfort yeah yeah I have wicked on my list of critical items to discuss

in this episode I've since seen wicked I have not been putting wicked on our trademark to best picture power rankings at all during this season part of that is a is a me problem which is that I have not seen the stage musical wicked I have not read the novel I am just wicked blind I was until I

saw the movie now you know the songs they hadn't like like penetrated through in your head I'm sure I had heard defying gravity in a target at some point you know like I'm sure that happened but I um you know since since this since I had a kid and the Wizard of Oz became a big part of our life

wicked became a part of my life through the soundtrack and so she is really into those songs and is obsessed with the Wizard of Oz we were just at the academy museum last weekend we saw the Wizard of Oz there we saw the Ruby slippers the wicked conversation is happening in my home on a

regular basis but so I just saw this movie and maybe we can talk about this first before we talk about the front runners because I think you're on to something Joe and I've been trying to sort it out I think there are some strong cases for wicked which is not out until November 22nd and then there

are some strong cases against it so I want to kind of vet those with you guys on the negative side I don't know if people know this because it's not being marketed this way but this is a part one of a two part movie which if you've seen the mission impossible trailer you know that that's

something that we're not that comfortable with anymore if you've saw the way that Dune was marketed and now Dune part two we know that we're not rewarding movies for their first bite at the apple that's been traditionally true throughout the history of Hollywood at the Academy Awards

and this is you know I don't think I'm spoiling anything to say that this movie ends on a cliffhanger it ends on a climactic moment but it is the opposite of resolution and that feels almost antithetical to the idea of movie storytelling so do you think that'll be held against it in any way?

I mean I think that's the argument we were making around Dune part two at the beginning of the year right that this was like that was the two towers they have to wait for their return of the king part three moment I think from what I haven't seen McKinley again I'm seeing it this Sunday

um though like anecdotally it's kind of hard to get into a screening they are so jammed and popular around here um there's a song about being popular in wicked maybe that's why exactly but like part one of wicked if if people are fans of the stage show part one of wicked has most

of the good songs and so I don't know that people should like hold out for part two when it comes to uh awarding wicked there are some good act two songs but also it ends with no spoiler everyone kind of knows this defiant gravity is like this big is the biggest song out of this huge musical and it

ends on this sort of like soaring upbeat so again I haven't seen part one um and and there's definitely more to come but I I could see it being holed against held against it in a different year but given the lack of like really strong front runner elsewhere I don't know I think it has an

opportunity what do you think Katie I mean I know smart people who think that wicked is going to win best picture uh the people who are more confident than I am in saying anything about what's going to win at this point although I guess we'll get there but I mean I think you're I think the escape

isn't thing is totally right I think Joanna you're totally right that the wicked thing has locked into place I mean it helps that they had their premiere um earlier this week I think like right after the election so the timing was good whether they intended it or not uh reviews haven't actually

come out yet those don't come until a couple days before it opens so they're being very smart playing the social sentiment in bargo game uh much as gladiator two did except they've got all these influencers who like went to this big fancy premiere and are thrilled about it but I keep thinking about

if Barbie couldn't get treated the way that it deserved to as escapist fantasy like not just that like Oppenheimer beat it like Oppenheimer was going to beat Barbie no matter what but you know things like the Stumps for Best Director like the things that it didn't get credit for like we

could get in in a lot of these ways but to be a best picture winner you kind of got to have that extra something and I haven't seen wicked yet either so I don't know I know it's about two women like going up against like a falsely a false male uh patriarchy though the Wizard of Oz so

who knows um but I feel like escapism is only going to take it so far and it's gonna like with the academy that we have now the academy that voted for moonlight uh you need something else to get across the finish line can I can I just say really quickly I'm so sorry this morning when I was

thinking about podcasting with Katie again I was like I get to talk to Katie about Barbie which I didn't get to talk about last year but I wanted to talk to you because I was thinking about Barbie in the context of of wicked this morning as well as I was thinking about this and it was like making me

kind of actually preemptively a little angry because as much as I think wicked is snapping into place and I haven't seen it yet um I was texting you a little bit this morning Katie like John choose visual style is not my preferred visual style and if you're going for like sumptuous

girly pop glorious technicolor film I would much rather a Barbie get this then awaken again side unseen uh or like the fact that I have for like over a month now been hearing Ariana Grande Ariana Grande Oscar winner in a way that like Margot Robbie couldn't get in the

door is is is personally slightly aggravating to me but that being said I think because wicked laughs like the American Faroe vera overt feminist speech it might be perhaps be a bit more palatable to the people who felt like Barbie was being preachy in a way that I didn't but a lot of people did

you know so interesting I if they're concerned about preachy there's like there's plenty of preachingness and wicked honestly it's what pretty ham-handed metaphor for like accepting people who are different from you it's this is a really tough one for me because as I say like I know that

there are a lot of people in the academy that have a lot of fondness for the wicked stage musical and that obviously it's been one of the most successful musicals of the 21st century and so there's already if you've seen it before you're familiar with it and you go into it there is a kind of comfort

and then there is an expansion that the director john mtu applies to the story that is very effective I thought aren't already on a grand day was incredibly enjoyable in this movie very funny really elevated the material I thought I really enjoyed her so I get where a lot of that sentiment is coming

from but man in the history of best picture winners there's not a lot of movies like wicked I you basically have to go back to the sound of music to find a movie that has the kind of upbeat and color that this movie has now it doesn't mean that other musicals happen one like Oliver one Chicago one

but those are pretty grimy dark musicals and the academy special one ruse is darker than it completely I mean think about the setting of that film and so this is a this would be extremely unusual in the history of the academy and and if it did win it would feel to me like the first part of our conversation this kind of boomerang effect on what's happening in the real world is is filtering into the conversation

because I don't think most people were taking this movie too seriously two or three months ago and now it feels like it has been elevated significantly I mean for me I at the risk of spoiling my review like I thought it was fine you know I definitely don't think

it's bad it's not a disaster by any means it's not really my flavor of um stylized CGI like I just I have a hard time looking at that production design but people really seem to like it so I if I'm on the other side of that I'm okay with it um it is IP you know it's not this is not that

different from Barbie and Marvel and Top Gun and like it's it's an IP movie but to your point about taking your daughter to go see was it was the Academy's I'm its IP with connection to like old school Hollywood so it feels like it's connected to the grand art of filmmaking even though

it looks to my eye as far away from the glorious technicaler of the 39 was her was as you can get um I don't get I don't get the the John M. Chiu aesthetic I don't understand uh it's appeal personally but um I'm hearing from every like a lot of people have seen it that they you know people who are in this sort of awards game that they're like oh it's gonna win every craft award

and I'm just sort of I'm a little baffled by it. God the main part two people are shaking their feet I mean again I haven't seen wicked yet but like you know the crafts and dude I feel like we were kind of waiting for them to like swing back around and win all the Oscars they did last time

and here the sea surfer comes around the bend that would that would be a strange and unfortunate outcome if wicked swept all the crafts but again I got it reasonable people can disagree about it so it is a hopeful story about people standing up to power it is a kind of a good moment for

John M. Chiu who I think really sees himself in the mold of like a spielberg in like visionary type filmmaker who takes on big material and I think I'll have to elevate it like I really like crazy rejections um I think in the heights is a little underrated I definitely don't think he's a

bad filmmaker by any means I don't think he's Steven Spielberg though at all I think if the if the world if the academy wants to try to elevate someone there's an opportunity there with him more more than anything the reason why I have been kind of flipped on this and starting to feel like

it's going to get in there at least into the race is the telecast really needs a movie like this I mm-hmm that when you look at the potential lineup setting aside Dune part two it is a deeply uncommercial collection of movies this year and especially having now seen gladiator two and

being a little bit iffy on if that's getting in I don't know like we kind of need to see defying gravity on the telecast because I'm not sure who's going to tune in to watch this what do you I like I can't not made it they can't not any defying gravity because that original song there are no

original songs a wicked I do know that much um which is a there are some in the second part I have been told but is fascinating to me that they did not they're like they I think the story is that's like there's too much going on we can't make room for it like this is half of the show how

was there not room for something new anyway they major major was um I might be higher on gladiator two than you are Sean maybe we can get to that later um I mean I think you can't you have to acknowledge like andora is making a tiny movie a ton of money and it's limited release conclave

is out there making money making memes like it's it's run in hard there um but yes I mean barbie and oponheimer again they set this a standard that's not going to be achieved like you're not going to get to giant billion dollar movies I guess oponheimer almost made a billion um as

major best-sector contentors again for quite a long time if ever um but and I think the bigger thing that you had pointed out is that wicked is hopeful that has this like hopeful message at the end of it and like there is hope to be found in all of these movies that I've got on you know

my list of things to consider but the ending on a hopeful note ending on this idea of like we can overcome like even gladiator two like there's a lot of darkness tempering almost all of these there's so much sadness to have to get through so maybe that's just what we were saying about the

escapism is like how much hope do we need to rally behind and how much can people you know make themselves put up with the bad feelings you get and watch in the brutalist and vote for it anyway that's what we don't know can I ask you uh katia quick our old bosses vanity fair just put out

their um their hollywood cover there is there is a moment and you've worked on it and I've like worked on it slightly very tangentially but we've all sort of like been in that in that game for a long time and every year there's someone missing from the cover that calm down your favorite

we're like why did we not put this person on the cover of the hollywood issue who is that person do you think because we you and I think both agree this is a great lineup yeah I think it is a great cover they didn't a great job yeah we loved it but so I mean I think part of the logic of

printing it out in December this year or no November is the December issue is kind of getting a little bit out of the like the Oscar Hype scene so like last year you know Charles melons on the hollywood cover and then he doesn't get the nomination for red December like it's fine he deserve

to be there but you know getting away from that part of it these are all the hopefuls um I mean you could say that Mike feist if they're gonna have Zendaya and Josh or Connor on there why not let Mike feist be be part of the crowd um I mean you can say like Kieran kulkin I think like

may well when an Oscar this year but like should he have been on the hollywood cover like I don't know like um Carlos Sofia gets going I think is the actual like breakout of a million pairs we'll talk about her in a moment but so he said donny is on there too so I don't know maybe I feel like they

got it right Joanna who did who do who am I missing I don't know I don't I don't have a good answer I just always love that moment or or like there's always someone on there that we're like oh we really thought you were gonna go and you did it you know so just made me think about but it's a great I

mean like it's great cover and includes people like Shuddy got what or whatever that's just sort of like they're an exciting but not really necessarily in the Oscar conversation I mean maybe Mike Madison is the answer like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it was surprised me if

they had tried to get her if that had not been part of the conversation again I don't work there anymore so I don't have insight into that um but she's kind of a big young breakout of the moment who is or or to put Demi back on the cover when she like did such famous vanity fair covers do you

know what I mean so that's one of the I mean I don't have a instant recall on who has appeared on these covers in the past but three people who crossed my mind were Margaret quality um Paul mescal and Mikey Madison those are those feel like three signature figures of the year in movies

thus far and they're not there and you know there's always like booking concern too and if Paul mescal had been on in the past that wouldn't be surprised at all but um I don't know that that's kind of a weird collection this year is like Nicole Kidman is playing a part but Harris Dickinson

is not there that seems odd given what baby girl is and kind of what's kind of come out of that whereas that movie feels like a continuation of what Nicole Kidman has been doing but maybe like a step up for Harris Dickinson in some ways nevertheless you need to have very famous people on the

front panel that's always the part the part of the math of making those and you know are like well getting bumped out to position is a while alone is a while moment that's like a Tom Hanks Julia Roberts position and there's Glenn Powell so we are so happy for Glenn here at the big

picture we have we always support him sorry sorry to derail your pod to talk about a fair cover no I just like relevant because this kind of visibility it plays into what's going to happen here you know up until I saw wicked my sense of things was that Anora and the brutalist

and Emilia Perez which we'll talk about shortly were the three front runners now Katie you pointed out the conclave one has been doing great business which is just very cool to see because it's almost exactly what I cry about on the show and I'm like we need more of this we need more of this

like upper middle brow you know mystery movie set in an interesting world with high class actors I fucking love that stuff same reason I love journal number two I'm just like man more of this more of the middle but it is middle and historically the Oscars are often rewarding the middle so you could

really see a case for a movie like conclave and it obviously has this um political affectation it's consistently pointing to its closeness to the American political system so I could see that's well that's four and then if you add wicked that's five I'm not sure if I'm ready to add wicked

yet to be honest with you in terms of the further conversation I don't know not at all well I feel like a lot of the fervor that you're talking about with the difficulty of getting into screenings and it's like there is a rabid fan base around this kind of a movie but there were rabid fanbases

around Deadpool and Wolverine as well and that film will not be competing like I'm not totally sure that indicates that it is a best picture winner now I could be totally wrong I don't know I know it definitely doesn't like attendance doesn't like correlate to but it helps it's why

top gun you were able to talk about top gun maverick as being in the race because we're like it's good for business and we want to reward things that are good for business so if wicked is not just like you know people wanting to do advanced screenings but pre-sales on tickets have been

but bonkers bananas so you know it's like it's gonna make a ton of money maybe not Deadpool and Wolverine money maybe nothing can but it's gonna make a ton of money and I think it's gonna get that sort of cinemas back or Hollywood's back sort of narrative that we're constantly cycling back

to when we talk about these things yeah something that like S-Wage is the fears of Hollywood about itself that like can be like oh well we can nominate this because it's making us feel good like Barbian Oppenheimer did that top gun maverick an avatar the way of water did that I think

Conclave can do that for exactly reason you were just saying Sean that it feels like it's the kind of movie that like doesn't get made at all anymore a Nora to some extent also even though it's really not traditional in that way I'm curious if the brutalist fits into that because it's such a like

this young guy I think a Brady Corbin is being this young filmmaker even though he's very close to my age because we're all very youthful on the spot cast and we look at two yeah just someone like following their passions like a you know like an exciting new voice so there's there's a lot

of narratives you can follow in that one for it and I wonder if if we can make some money it can do that it's like Gladiator 2 can the same way but you kind of have to like to fit into some spot to make Hollywood be like okay we haven't gone all wrong because Conclave exists well I don't

know if this is the Gladiator to marketing team that is like put this narrative out there but all the like tweets and blue skies and whatever I've seen comparing the first Gladiators rotten tomato score to Gladiator 2's rotten tomato score and that they're comparable right

they were both in the 70s and so a lot of people are just sort of like okay you know the classic one of the critics and I was sort of thing but just basically this idea of like don't count it out just because it's got 70 something in rotten tomatoes if that is from the Gladiator 2 team Bravo

well done but like Sean you and I both were bullish on Gladiator 2 and then I talked to you when you had seen it and I got kind of deflated I see it next week but like um I if it makes a ton of money if it does I think you know it could be in the conversation and I don't think you have to have made obviously a ton of money and we're gonna talk about you know you talk about a Nora doing

relatively well the box office but that's like quite relative. Sure I but like but it has been interesting to me to hear this conversation ongoing conversation we've been having about the Oscar Telecast where we're like they have to put in movie people people have actually seen or have

actual movie stars there else know it's gonna watch the telecast something that we're all we go all three of us go back and forth on this I've heard all of us talk about this where we're like they need to pander to people so more people will tune in and they go we'll find never mind just make it

super niche and just for the hardcore movie fans that's fine who cares um but I the the not to like hammer on poor R&D Grande because I actually do think she she she she probably get nominated but I will be distressed as she wins before some of the other actresses who are in content but like um

I've been hearing the like golden globes ask you know narrative of like we need to have Ari on a Grande there so that people will come and that's something we're used to hearing like we need to nominate and to Angelina Jolie for the tourist so that she will come to our award show and I was

like why are we why are we golden globes in the Oscars the Oscars so I know that's where I am I guess I'm I am interested to see if the globes are more impactful people have already been indicating that it's probably BAFTA that will be the most predictive this year in part because of a number

of the contenders and where they fit the gladiator two thing I don't want to say too much about the movie will be talking about it at the end of next week and I said when I did the power rankings a month ago just having seen it it's just deeply iterative of the original on purpose with a less

good script and even though they're rotten tomato scores may ultimately seem somewhat similar I think with the exception of the Denzel Washington character there's not like a it doesn't feel that different to me from the first film so if just being reminded of the original is enough to

muscle its way into the race I guess that's something but I can't say I was I can't say it lived up to where I wanted it to be I know I know I I I saw I had a great time with that either too I left on a real high out of that movie including that Denzel Washington who like I do think is really in

that supporting actor mix like I would count him out at all I mean the theory I had thrown out and we're not talking about best director today is like really Scott still has no Oscar and like if you feel like you know you feel like it Sean Baker or Brady Corbin or Jacques Odea are you're like none

of them are really clamoring for an Oscar like Ridley Scott's right there but I think glad it or two does need a bigger head of steam behind it before we can start really talking about stuff like that I agree I would have been much more comfortable I was very comfortable predicting him

in best director two months ago before I saw it for that exact reason Katie which is it feels like an oddly I don't want to say wait list because that's not I don't mean that the films are wait list but I don't know if the Sean Baker or Jacques Odea are narrative or like these guys are overdue

and it's time for them to compete you know it doesn't really feel like that's quite in place I look back at the rankings that I did on October 21st and I don't know what the hell I was thinking I was in a mono studio alone by myself

you're both marveling at how good you are at mom like we were listening to it this morning we're just like Sean's really good at it okay that's nice probably some combination of paranoia and narcissism colliding to make that possibly successful but I think actually even if I sounded

cogent I don't think I did a very good job of outlining where the race stands and I think of this a little bit of my personal taste has invaded because seeing a movie like a Nora you know I've been a huge Sean Baker fan for a very long time seeing a movie like the brutalist which is

kind of like vacuum sealed in a lab for my interests you know it's just so close to the kind of thing that really moves me historically at the movies those two movies being so high up I'm like yeah Nickelboy should be getting in this audacious unusual reimagining a first person point of view

storytelling from a complex novel feels like something that matters but then I look at it and I'm like I don't know it's gonna take a lot for a movie like that to get over the line and then it's September 5th too simple so I'm I'm really kind of I'm unsorted on where I think I stand

I'll just for the sake of the listenership I'll say here's where I was one month ago and then we can talk about what we think is actually in right now so it was it was nickel boys September 5th the piano lesson gladiator to a real pain dune part two conclay the brutalist Amelia Perez

and a Nora and I don't feel great about anything other than the top four there right now so what do you guys think well I was thinking as you know it feels unsettling I agree that this feels more unsettled than usual because we don't have anything coming in as a real frontrunner but like this is always the vibes part of Oscar season there have been there's been the Gotham nominations which gives us some information but not that much in December we get Golden Globe nominations we get

sad critics choice starts happening like we get some better sense of what people are actually choosing but when we sit then we're like like I think older academy voters will like Amelia Perez that's based on like maybe you were at a regional festival screening like there's not a lot of information

to go on for any of this stuff so I think it's only sensible to have this like kind of formless sense of like 20-ish titles that you think are in the mix but like no idea how to sort them because we haven't been told we haven't been giving any data to work off do you have a hobby horse

right now Katie one that you're like I feel like this is going in and no people aren't talking about it as much like I know you talked about sing sing on your show a couple times and I left it out last time and that was probably easily the biggest blowback I got was like where the fuck is

sing sing dude yeah that's when I was gonna bring up like looking at my listen listening to yours I was gonna throw out sing sings we can talk about that too but also blitz is becoming a big hobby horse of mine I mean you just talked about how BAFTA might wind up being predictive like if you

look at the reviews of blitz from the UK they are much more effusive than the ones in the US I really loved it I saw it I had like left my children in come to New York to see a screening of blitz and I was like this mother's been separated from her child and you know you really

I was in the right spot for that but I think in this post-election period like a story about people enduring really tough stuff and coming together and specifically this multi-racial multi-ethnic vision of London that has so rarely been on screen like that has real power it's an Apple movie I don't

even know what the box office is or if it's being reported like that's always a weird asterisk on these things but I think until proven otherwise I feel like blitz could have some power this being under estimated right now what do you think Joanna and what what did I screw up what are

what are you feeling is in the mix that I didn't identify here's two things number one and I understand why and you and I are going to talk about it next week I think you have a real pain way too high I think okay as like a film the curing cold can narrative I understand but like

as a film as a best picture film that feels a bit high where you have it on the list not that it's not going to get in but um sing sing for me really is like genuinely and and I'm not just yes and Katie got a text from me about this earlier but I was just like I used to do this thing a little

go-men where I was just like championing something that I feel like really emotional about um and they used Katie's reminding me that used to call it like the Joanna's heart vote and it's like sing sing for me I I saw that movie at South Island and I saw it again uh you know in a local

theater where a lot of actually uh awards voters go and like the the the academy members that were in the screening that I went to in the Bay Area really liked it and I think not just because I mean I think the performances are quite good all of that sort of stuff but like that classic

Oscar art is important you know uh theater is important stories are important acting is important is inside the package of like a little film that could kind of uh story so I don't know I really feel I love sing sing and I feel like it has a real shot to be in the in the race yeah I had some regrets not including it it's just so tricky because it's been such an odd release strategy I guess a 24 announced that they will be reissuing it in theaters either at the end of this year the beginning

of next year so more people can see it you know we did an episode about it in August and I was like is this a good idea it was one of like nine episodes this year where I'm like I don't know when people are gonna see this I don't know when to talk about this movie I don't know when to talk

about a Nora it's still only in a thousand theaters as opposed to three thousand even though it's doing pretty good businesses you pointed out Katie and so that's an unusual situation because in 21 and 22 I felt as though the hangover effect from the pandemic meant that a lot of films went to

streaming pretty quickly I remember the banshee's have been a share in hitting max really fast yeah and feeling like wow that was a great move like that really helped the campaign because a lot of people saw that movie a movie that otherwise would have been a fairly small film and got excited

about it and I remember just like looking at the the the data on who was listening to that episode I'm sure I've said this before and I was like wow a lot of people listen to the episode about the weird Irish comedy drama from Martin McDonough and a movie like sing saying it's like premiered

at tiff in September of 23 played South by in March of 24 opened on like 200 screens in August of 24 getting reissued in December of 24 and then making its way to the race it's a very unusual kind of trajectory for a best picture nominee so maybe that's kind of what's fogging my brain about that one

that's the closest we have to a kota in terms of the pattern this year like kota came out in the summer after it's sunday it's premiered it really made like no splash at all everyone thought it was this nice movie that no one was ever going to talk about again and it resurfaced as partly in

the power of a campaign of having all of its cast go to all these events together I feel like I talked about this all the time but there's real power to that and like Clarence McLean and Coleman to bingo together is like a powerful site along with you know real people in the movie

who were formerly incarcerated and more or less playing themselves there's so much power in that too and I think a 24 like are often smarter than we give them credit for I remember when the whale was coming out like it was just not streaming and not on streaming and everyone was wondering

like what in the world are we doing but it builds it doesn't have this moment of peeking to be like oh god I guess no one really wanted to see that movie it just gets to roll slowly forever maybe that's part of the anorious strategy too so I feel like syncing it just can't be written off yet

is like oh that movie didn't connect because Joanna I've been hearing stories like what you said about academy screening since the summer like it plays so well in a room and like you get 10 people one screening and 10 people in another one and eventually you've got 4,000 people who've seen

your movie and you got a campaign there okay so tell me what movies you would knock off that I had on last time okay I try to remember what you had on September 5 so September 5 I have I have questions about also that just because not anything gets the movie just because I just am not

feeling like this well behind it you know that you wanted this point so it's not out yet right it's out at the end of November okay I don't know how wide that release is going to be that is the kind of movie to me that if it weren't made available on streaming fairly quickly I think would benefit

it because it is a it's a modest production you know it's a men and rooms talking movie I know obviously we have one of those in Conclave already this year but I'm very polished compared to September 5 which is very well made but not the not as flashy as Conclave at all it's definitely not

as flashy yeah I don't know I think that there was something about you know there's obviously the the inherent complexity and difficult to discuss nature of the hostage situation in the real events of that film and how it reflects or doesn't reflect on what's going on in the world right now and I

don't know how much any of that will filter into the conversation around the film I think it just kind of felt a little bit like a movie from the mid 70s that people would be like that's a great film about people doing the work and the paranoia inherent in the work that we do and there might be

a little bit of self gratification about around anybody in media taking a look at that movie and maybe misreading it about what it actually means but like we're not so far moved from a spotlight Oscar you know yeah so it doesn't seem out of the total realm of possibility but it's a smaller movie

for sure it's yeah it's bigger than sensing though and I say this as like a tangential member of the media as like a big supporter of the media what is the national temperature on the media compared to when it when spotlight came out what do you mean these are not great in the media

it's in the less than years what are you are we not stable in our careers forever are we the baddies what are we saying here guys a cabinet a cabinet position could be ours so you know I'm a journalist I'm a content creator so I don't know about you guys and the content creators also having a

great reputation these days too that's a good one there in the winter I had the spotlight thought also on September 5th it's it's less emotional than spotlight like there's this fairy like straightforward people doing their jobs like you kind of get to the end of the movie and like the

characters are all kind of worthless where they started like I love John McGurrow I think he's great in it I think Peter Sarsgard is really great in it but there's not even like the you know Mark Ruffalo yelling they knew all a long moment in this like the kind of the point of it is that

they're keeping their heads down and like getting the job done in these crazy circumstances and I wonder if that can work against it because sensing is a smaller movie but it's really emotional and that can really pull people along with these smaller productions okay let's say for

the sake of conversation that we're just putting things in the nine slot replacing entirely September 5th is that sound right to you guys it does yeah for now what are what are we doing with the piano lesson oh yeah let's talk about the piano lesson well it's clearly gonna get at

least recognition for Daniel deadwilers performance I think you could make the case that she is in the in the top two or three in that race for supporting actress to me she's a lead but that's neither here nor there I don't really care about category fraud that much um I think at a time when

I wasn't sure how movies like anora and the brutalist were gonna resonate I was like this feels like an elevated version of a conventional movie that often gets awards consideration marini's black bottom is an example of a movie like this where I'm like I think that piano lesson is

superior to marini's black bottom in a variety of ways way more cinematic but it is something that historically the cat the academy has clicked with and so I don't know I just I don't know how radical the academy is or is not and so I don't know what to make of that one I liked it I liked it out of

tell your eye I don't think it's um I don't think it's my it's not my favorite movie of the year by any means but it has a lot of the bones of things that have been nominated in the spot in the past I talked I talked to Malcolm Washington and Daniel deadwil a little while ago and revisit

revisited the movie I was really taken with it the second go around like having seen it in Toronto and was kind of too tired to engage with it properly maybe I think Malcolm Washington is really smart and really good filmmaker and kind of what I was saying before about Brady Corbett like the idea

that like you know you get someone you get new town he's thirty three years old I know I had him on the show too we haven't run that interview yet and I was like wow this guy is incredibly impressive and he's got it like it's not I mean he obviously he has strong holiday connections

because of the family he comes from but like he has studied he knows what he's talking about and I think there's something really exciting about that I agree like Maureen it's better than Maureen and also there is a slot in best picture for something like that um but I can't I can't figure

out what to kick out for it you know like it's uh it's impressive but are you gonna like I think I'm higher on a real pan than Joanna like yeah I have it on sitting on the outside my list for kind of the same reason that I can't you can figure out what to do with it there's a part of me that

wonders and I'm on the lessons side the game that I used to be but it feels slightly outside the Oscar race game that like the power of Netflix to get something nominated is not as strong as there was a run where it really was they had all these resources they still do a ton of resources

and they could get a ton of stuff nominated and now it feels like they're being a bit more judicious and I and I have been told by people working Netflix that they're throwing all of their stuff behind Amelia Perez and so I kind of feel like yeah you know the I mean yeah that's there's a

dust tape and then I've just been told that also by Netflix and so it's like the piano lesson there are previous years where Netflix could have upwards of like three or four best picture nominations you know but like I don't know if that's still the case I just I may be letting that

infect some of my thinking too is that well you can sort of count on 1.7 Netflix films making its way into the best picture race I think the piano lesson is the only film that they have in the race this year that is actually competing that originated at Netflix you know both Maria

and Amelia Perez were pickups out of festivals and so historically when they produce a movie too they like to be behind it more I think they obviously had fewer films in the pipeline for two reasons I think one obviously the strikes which made it more difficult and two they've just

deemphasized this frame this part of their strategy which was a huge part of their strategy for many years that that endless pursuit for the best picture win if they if they get it for Amelia Perez like I might just a quit podcasting I don't know that will be so absurd relative to like

what Roma was you know anyway are you just going to rewatch making cry well I can't credibly tell you I think man was could of one best picture but it was my best picture of that very odd movie here okay so I felt like nickel boys September five and the piano lesson were the three that I

felt the least confident about it's why they were 10.9 and eight last time so if we're taking the piano lesson off is that where we could part one is going can I can I propose something else to add in with absolutely what about the substance are we thinking enough I'm glad you brought this up

yeah this is great talking about making money like it's like successful it's like again my movie standards and Dickey and the culture in a way that like even some other more popular movies haven't been yeah okay I would love if that happened and I'm actually willing to swap out nickel boys for

the substance at number 10 for the sake of good list making because I do think that there is a zeitgeistie thing it's also it's available to stream on movie now and you can rent it on VOD to my point about Ben she's been a share and it's a movie that more people can see and it has clearly

made way more money I think the universal ever thought it could before they got scared and sold it to movie because I didn't want to be anywhere close to the content I really like that movie quite a bit and I am on a couple of text chains with a couple of academy voters and they fucking hate it

hey and a people also hate this movie now I really like it but that level of vitriol now I don't think anybody is putting the substance at number one on their best picture voting ballot I doubt it yeah maybe at four maybe at seven but the people who hate it will not there it won't be getting any

eight nine ten votes you know what I mean just be able to just not be on their ballot whatsoever exactly so how much does that factor in no and with the like the like ability factor in terms of getting a best picture nominations pretty well known so that is a good I was I mean again we're

not talking about direct about Corley for job like as a director candidate I think is maybe being more underestimated than its best picture chances but I do think it's hovering in there when you say again that you're on a text chain with several academy voters wonderful flex

for you were to several of us at seven um Amelia Perez is also quite devices it is you know and it is we've got it all the way up at number two on your previous list and so I'm not I'm not trying to take it off the list by any means of course not not at all but I think I think it's a little higher

than I think the academy of other because there's you know we always have to consider of course the older cramuginly academy voter that we keep in our mind and then of course as a man to like surmine us the international voter is something to keep in mind as well but like and Sean I told you

this when I got out of my Amelia Perez screening the older academy voters were like well that sure was the thing you know so I yeah I don't know I believe my myself quote about Amelia Perez after I saw it tell you right was well that is a lot of movie and I don't know if I said much

more about it we'll get into that very briefly uh yeah when we get into Amelia Perez okay let me raise one more I like the idea of the substance great call Katie will put it in there for the sake of conversation sing sing will be at nine is a complete unknown on your radar I have that on my

list of I don't I haven't seen it I know a handful of people who have I'm seeing it next week okay yeah like what I've heard from the people who've seen it that like it is okay but like I was also one person was just like you're gonna hate it which was surprising to me because I've had felt

kind of like generous toward it um but the same person reminding me that Ford versus Ferrari got like 10 Oscar nominations like not that long ago and a complete unknown like could be just like hitting right down the middle like we've been talking about the middle and how the Oscars like

like to live in the middle and like maybe a complete unknown it's not gonna do Wonka numbers but I could do like adjusted Wonka numbers and putting in December and like be the money maker and the middle thing that we're looking for now you know why I have to get it so long because she brings

up Wonka I was gonna bring up Wonka I was gonna bring up Wonka and say I think the should stop ever underestimating Timothy Shalame so I man I I'm just I know you're strong I know I know that I know like is going to mean a lot to you one way or another right like it's like you're

not gonna be neutral on this movie no no I'm gonna come down why like I like mangled I really do I he's been on the show I find him to be like a fascinating order I think when I we spoke for like an hour and I asked three questions last time he was on the show um and he's got really really

strong ideas but he does have a kind of traditionalist streak in what he pursues and what he believes is great cinema whether or not that transfers to the most mainstream artist who broke the conception of mainstream in American popular music history like I'm not sure if that's a match so I'm

I'm skeptical why do you think so few people have seen it I I was told that it it there were reshoots and that it wasn't done yeah I had kind of gotten that sense that they hadn't finished it yet and also like you know they're gonna wait and for the like gladiator to wicked like Mama

wanted to like there's this huge like Thanksgiving jam up and they're gonna like screen it when they can for I think there's gonna be screenings on the 25th so pretty soon um for like the critics who vote in New York phone critics circle and laugh us so they can get those votes out and then

you know bring it out to people because you want that like late mover advantage that you know we've all said exists in since million dollar baby and more often than not like it doesn't really pan out that way but I think everyone every year there's something that tries like maybe we could

talk about Nosferatu also kind of barely peaking its head out at this point I would love to do that did my eyebrows go straight up wait Katie when you say Nosferatu who's the person in Nosferatu you most wanted champion just like oh uh cut why haven't seen Nosferatu yet so I feel

like I just fear I don't think my answer is Lily Rose Depp but I got to remember who welts his in Nosferatu so I'm not gonna google it real quick who's who are you championing it sounds like you have an answer no I just think that you like me agree that Nicholas Holt was

in Nicholas Holt I had to just basically confirm that Nicholas Holt was in this movie to before yes Nicholas I haven't seen your number two yet though so I feel like my whole card is gonna get revoked until I go see that so these were there's three more movies that have

not come up in this conversation that I think we should talk about there's Nosferatu there's journal number two the twin killing from Nick Holt and the room next door which is the new Elmadova movie have you guys seen the room next door yeah I saw him Toronto okay um I would say I was

lightly dismayed watching that movie as I like a mega Elmadova fan like a fanboy um I it's a movie that didn't work for me but I know it's another I think another fairly divisive film um but that movie and Nosferatu and journal number two or movies that I had was maybe not taking

as seriously as I should and now I feel like maybe I need to throw them in the mix too so maybe join if you're right that a real pain is not contending in the way that I think it is I'm more with you on the way Katie disagrees yeah I think a real pain is pretty strong I do too I really like it

I think you should be in there I just think you have too high maybe you're right maybe you're right um Nosferatu I have seen I I'm no longer doing the like I've you know Nosferatu parentheses Egger's comma 2024 close parentheses colon and absolutely beautiful film for all the

sickos out there like I'm not doing those tweets anymore um I've sworn them off but uh do you want to try that on blue skies maybe I'm over there if people want to check that out I think I did a beautiful film for the sickos though is this the exclusive yeah yeah yeah it I mean

it's it's Egger's at a mega budget doing the thing that he does it very very funny movie I thought and I think it's like sense of humor and sense of doom and the collision of those two things is something that really speaks to me but it does not at all seem it's another movie that'd be

wildly unusual for movie like this to be nominated for best picture were you at the event with Egger's and geoboldal tour I was and it was one of the absolute best post-screening Q&A's I've ever seen yeah it was Diltoro is obviously a genius when it comes to film history but the two of them

who were doing shorthand on the history of myth it was fascinating maybe not all people would agree but for somebody like me I was enraptured by their conversation yeah and I think I think that's like the conversation that continues around that film um I'm excited for the sickos to have

their have their day because they deserve it yeah I don't I don't I've been getting for people who've seen it is like I love this movie but you know like the lighthouse was in there for its Oscar contingent for you know got that cinematography now but like it seems like that may still be

the ceiling on what Robert Egger is is turning down and like god bless it we want him to keep doing that and not go for Oscar glory instead I I wouldn't totally write off Lily Rose Depp um she is the standout performer from the movie by far for me and she does some things there's been some

reporting about kind of like the physical performance that she gives the way that she sort of contorts her body and the fact that no CGI was used to capture all of those things that is very impressive and I think we'll be a talking point up to the release I'm very curious to see if that movie does good business because if it does I think it's chances and other categories goes up costume design make make up is it's definitely competing in makeup when you see what the star scar scar transformation

is um anyway I don't think no swarat is going to get in juror number two I'm not ready to write off yet um I'm fascinated by the because like well how much of that is the is the like justice for Clint I think it's all that stick it to David's as love uh I think it's a very solid film it's like a

seven out of 10 for me but I think there is a little bit of a like justice for Clint thing which is ironic just given what how Clint sees the world and how he fucking eats institutions and the idea of like an institution granting him yet again another award identifying his genius is a bit

silly but you know it's also it's the same thing as concave it's just it's a it's an old-fashioned down the middle genre movie with very good performances and you know some flaws in the storytelling I think but a great great ending and so I I if you told me that in four months it's a big part of

the conversation I wouldn't be shocked would it be like do you imagine it being like a best director best picture thing like is Nicholas Holtmore of a contender like how across the board a um rise up to you see on this I don't see Nicholas Holt competing even though it is a very very very good

performance I'm sorry Joanna um he Sean just doesn't properly respect Nicholas hold in that so no I do I do I like him quite a bit um I mean he's just the king of all cucks and he's having one of the great cock runs in these two films when you look at when you see no Sforatio and Jura

number two you know what I mean Sean Texan that's mean I was like no way he's gonna say that on the podcast that's why that's why you're one of the great Sean I'm sorry thank you can I throw out another you listen to it can I there's one more we haven't talked about please yeah we can

leave miss I don't know how I feel about it but the wild robot is still out there making making money yeah it is when I was talking to somebody about you know post election vibes like what's the movie about people like coming together and like making the world better it's about animals but it

is a very great like everyone team up to stand up for your values kind of movie um it's not a successful since I doubt two nothing is um and inside out two is gonna push really hard to be to take that one animated spot like I think everyone's correct that not both can get in I think it's

really crowded for the wild robot to make its way in there but like I don't know it still feels like it's gonna it's gonna fight hard for that spot until um it runs out of road I think it's still not since is it toy story three was the last one to get into that picture yeah yeah there was

this is very quick run of Pixar movies and then they said no we're done with that no thank you never again I I don't I really like the wild robot I don't I don't see it getting over the line I'm not I think it's a very good film I think it's a uh in very powerful film if you're a parent um oh yeah

but I don't know that this feels like actually all of a sudden it just feels really crowded to me I know I know you know we're like syncing in a complete unknown and the room next door and blitz and like I they could all get in that seems totally plausible to me that all of those movies could

get in so I okay well when you did you did the ULTIF 26 in uh go October 1st how many movies are we at now are we at like 16 how do we get it down a little bit okay yeah I think we're at about 16 I know we're going from the bottom ish but and I I think that's how you usually like to do this but

should we should we do some top-down stuff just to make sure we don't run out of essential spots as always your way ahead of me on all this joint thank you you're right do you do you guys agree that in or is still the front runner in this race I do I like I kept waiting for something

to replace it and I'm now starting to wonder if it just does a nomad land and just stays there just in the long just like came out of the screening and I was like this movie's gonna win I still kind of think that but nomad land is such a that's such a baffling year

well yeah that that you said impossible it's an impossible comparison but like yeah yeah I know and oris it's so strong and I I talked to Sean Baker yesterday his some of his production team and was like just left even more dazzled so presumably anyone who goes to a Q&A with them will do

the same thing I never would have guessed that on all the times that I've spoken to Sean Baker in the past I'm like he's emerged as the darling of this so strange that's not a negative read it's just weird but like me and is good at what they do right you know so okay so anora is one what is number

two I have conclave it to for my list love the boldness I like it did you like it I really like conclave you did so over on a childlike content we're doing three weeks of Denzel Washington and to your point about like I miss movies like this like watching Philadelphia and the pelican

brief I was just like crying I'm like why don't we have these movies that make $200 million anymore anyway so that's yeah I was informed by him I was informed by Dave Gonzalez your co-host that both Stanley two G&J on let's go we're in the pelican brief so it was like a pre-conclave

conclave right there oh good point that had not occurred to me the only thing that would have made conclave better is if Denzel showed up that would have been quite special you would absolutely fit him in there and give him like Julia is there room for Julia you don't know what those nuns look

like under those habits you could have been this scuttling around serving lunch there you go given the ongoing success and the fact those movies are out the world I like an orang conclave at one and two right now so then have you guys seen the brutalist you've seen yeah yeah yeah Sean

and you and I are you and I are in the brutalist um you know hype squad together we are 24 eight 24 if you're listening I'm really sorry I missed my first screening I'm seeing it next week I'm seeing next week age 24 I'm so sorry I'm excited to see it I see number three am I like

over-saving it I think you guys should put brutalist in every I have it in both really love it okay do it I like not to like go back to the election thing over and over again but I do think that's a movie that's like been rattling around in my head even louder since the election like I

think that image of the upside down sat you're liberty on the poster like it is really striking um and I think it's just an incredible work of art um and it's got a lane right like it's not really that much like a noro or conclave and I think you need that variety in it but

spiritual enough to yeah I tend to agree I think it's also the movie that it reminds me a lot of tar you know it's a movie that is built around a mega central performance that is loaded with all of these ideas and if you take those ideas out great and if you don't take them out and you just

see it as spectacle that's also going to work for you um does does the three and a half run hour runtime so much so that they're they put an intermission in the press screening that I am so sorry I missed um it does that factored to it when you're thinking about people watching their

screener at home can watch on the screener sounds like a terrible idea and I don't know how they they can't prevent people from doing it but I I don't imagine remember how I'm joined in my coagin used to always say like imagining people in their bell or mansion with the sun streaming

through their giant windows watching these movies at home conclave's gonna rip like that and the previous is absolutely not yeah well I'm I'm so torn on that I mean on the one hand Oppenheimer was three hours you know and Oppenheimer obviously was a big hit so people just

saw it in the theaters but I wouldn't recommend seeing that movie on a screen or either but it absolutely dominated award season from start to finish so I don't think that that necessarily disqualifies the intermission as I understand it is a part of the film it is literally baked

into the movie and there's a title card that appears that shows you that you are it's not like you're just at a road showing they only share it with you when you're seeing it in this format I think when you buy the movie on digital or whatever you're gonna just have the I think you're gonna

have the intermission that I could say let's go to the lobby and have ourselves a snack yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's a it's a beautiful title carded intermission but historically in the in great long you know Hollywood epics the reason for the intermissions

that were baked into those movies was obvious it was get up go to the bathroom go get a snack go get some more popcorn that was very purposeful it was part of the exhibition of the film I'm not upset that it exists I love I love that you know when you're watching an old school epic on AMC

or TCM or whatever and then the intermission like comes up in the middle it's incredible um it was just surprised me in a press screening because I was they were just like I know it in my press screening there will be an intermission I was like that I've never experienced so I was so relieved

I had to head up and press my legs but also there's a great moment and Sean it might have happened you were like I was sitting next to to Joe Reed and I did we started to be like do you love this and we got to check in with each other at intermission and it was just so such a great like oh my god

you guys were doing this together it's it's such a great feeling I had the same thing I saw it in LA and I was sitting there to Glenn Whip from the Los Angeles Times and we both were like man I hope this is as good as I hear it is and it's kind of been like a wonky year and I haven't really

been able to kind of get my heart behind too many movies and then same thing Katie like maybe not quite at the end of the first first half I was like hey we got one great listen number three okay we're gonna say number three number number four uh Joe I know what do you what do you think like

what if I've overestimated a real pain have I underestimated anything is there something that should be shooting up closer to the top well the only thing I mean we do have to put Amelia Perez here on here eventually but like I'm wondering if Doom Part 2 goes at four wow

and then Amelia Perez at five what do you feel like this what what is the late in the day Doom Part 2 all I'm seeing I mean constantly invited just greetings with like Dennyville Nova is gonna be there like Dennyville Nova is screening this movie every single night tireless

man in the world in the world Dennyville Nova is showing Doom Part 2 um so like how effective is this like I'm doing a live event for Miraculous with the he actually I'm really excited about the sand pod the fights gonna take forever but oh my god the wind sound getting the wind sound

out of your pod it's gonna be really tough but I apologize Bobby uh I that feels a little high for me I think that the movie is beloved by those who love it but amongst the academy I think there is still a little bit of like that's a movie for the nerds sensation um okay maybe not as

I thought I'd broken through more than Doom Part like Doom Part 1 there was that sort of like this is for the nerds vibes and I thought Doom Part 2 had broken through but maybe that was just because we walked out of our screening and like everyone in our screening Sean like didn't we all

looked at each other across the nerd pods and the big pick pods and found comic costs together in Doom Part 2 yeah I don't I don't I can't be I'd be curious to know what you think about this amongst cinephiles Denny is someone who now everyone is like he is in he's entered the pantheon

right he's somebody who every time he makes a movie now it will be a kind of event it's been this slow build through American productions and everyone identifies him as like a big a grand scale master movie maker but science fiction has very little footprint in the history of the academy

awards it's just not a genre that unless a film is an absolute sensation like Star Wars that tends to get into these races so even more so than like fantasy you know fantasy has a better track record even science fiction for the most part so I while I think it is definitely going to be

nominated and is widely admired and was a huge box office hit I don't see it as like really in competing for the best picture win I don't what do you think Katie can I I'm gonna make a proposal I feel like it might perform exactly the way as avatar the way of water and that it was a sci-fi

sequel and it's a highly respected on every technical level you know following up a movie that had been a pretty major Oscar player and I don't remember how many nominations I don't think it won anything or maybe only one visual effects it gets in and nominated in kind of all the places

it needed to be and then everyone kind of just said okay good you're here and now we're going to go focus on other stuff like maybe that's a trajectory for Doompart 2 tough tough room okay you know how much I love Avatar Joanna I consider that a high compliment Doompart 1 did win six below the

line Oscar it did sure did so and it'll be curi I'll be curious to see if it can it can match that my impression my my instinct will be to put it more around six okay in part two will you yeah I feel good about that I had a milli press here at number four which I don't want to go to

the mat for but just that's I think that's fine I do too is it is it crazy that what kid part one would be a number five no no I feel like it might be yeah yeah I mean I like I would say put syncing there like the way I made my list but that's not based on anything like and I think that in in this moment like if we're trying to capture not only what we think is going to happen but where the energy is right now it's wicked okay so then we have seven and eight thus far we have knocked

off nickel boys September five the piano lesson gladiator two we simply must put a real pain at seven okay yeah then it goes down one slot so you can feel like yeah a victory of a couple of times here I made a difference I made a difference yeah I feel really confident that

a real pain is getting in for best picture yeah yeah so it's where you know so at number eight oh my god we're running out of room just gladiator two very quickly Katie do you think it's going to get into this race I had said yes when I made my list but like I feel like with gladiator two and

June part two there can only be one like maybe that's not right but maybe like wicked gladiator two June two I don't know that there's room for all three so if you're gonna keep wicked and June two one there then gladiators got to go I think right now in the so here's what I know about

gladiator two I haven't seen it uh people are mixed excited about it but not overly excited about it Chris Ryan and Sean fantasy the two people I thought would be most in the tank for gladiator two are not in the tank for gladiator two I I think Denzel is the is the Oscar conversation and

best picture is not yeah so then there's blitz going in this spot I think let's deserve the spot here like I it that is a huge technical achievement it's got all that you know the below the line support like makes a difference in best picture those people are all voting for best picture like

if you get all of the like sound editors in there they're gonna see something in blitz that not necessarily we're going to um and there's the international component like a subtle English people but like I feel like there's like a European fan base for that movie that's maybe harder for us to

see um and I really like it so just personally I want to push for it to be in there I think that's insightful I was a little disappointed with this to be honest with you I another movie that I felt like it's script did not quite live up to some of the technical mastery and performance on display

and that was kind of a bummer because I tend to really love the scripts of Steve McQueen films because he has a real acid burn sensibility that I really connect with whether he's making something historical or more genre based at times I was like is this this is very Spielbergian as well

and very kind of you know it was heartful and open and emotional which is not a bad thing per say but it's not quite what I expect from him also I think the first five minutes of that movie without spoiling it is a real fake out about what kind of a movie it's going to be because it has this kind

of like stunning dramatic sequence of what was happening during the Blitz in London and kind of like what the on the ground experience of it was like that the movie mostly doesn't follow it becomes much more this sort of like de Kenzie and story of a child in a level of escape as opposed to this

like literally your city is on fire and here's how it feels and so maybe I got a little bit pushed off of it but I think you're right Katie that there's something about the international nature of the academy and the framework and also you know World War Two movies have a long history at the academy awards and so I could see it I don't know John are you haven't seen it yet?

I haven't I do think that like see see him greeting in general of course is like of of interest the academy and then Sirsha this is my way to online you know opinion but Sirsha on the press circuit for this film has been strong it feels like the momentum from oh she's definitely getting in for the outrun has now fully shifted so she's definitely getting in for Blitz and not for the outrun I really like

her in the outrun too which is I dropped the script I did not like I'm sorry. Yeah no no it's not like it's not the strongest script I think she's wonderful in it I I have it in my movie fantasy league so I have a strong greeting interest it's as if there's real money involved with their

absolute is not but yes I think she is really good she's been good on the Blitz press store she and like Elliott Heffernin who's the main kid like they're good duo doing the press together and yeah I was gonna say I feel like it the Kenziean more than Spielberggan is a way to get into

Blitz without sounding too much like a proper English major but and I think that works and it's benefit but I absolutely see if you have if you're coming in for one scene with Queenine to get a different one why it would um throw you off when you first watch this is like is having not

seen in his empire of the Sun like a good comp to it or not I've never seen empire of the Sun sorry yeah yeah I mean in many ways they're similar um I don't know if Elliott Heffernin has quite what Christian Bale had in that movie time was all personally but are high bar but yet yeah

I think it's um I don't know I need to watch Blitz again it's but I'll say before especially before I do an episode about it's just kind of wrap my head around it because it just it it wrong-footed me it was just not what I expected it to be for a variety of reasons that doesn't

mean it's not um accomplished or or competing here I had boy I've just I've never been more flamixed by the best picture race than I have this year fun it is so boring when we're like we know who all the uh I know the Oppa Humberton is the snore that was really quite dull no but

I like that movie I was afraid for you so yeah so emotionally satisfying he was a great man you know right right right okay so then our official rankings wait was that 10 are we done yeah we're done we got 10 we kicked out nickel boys oh man okay kicked out nickel boys you can have

September five we kicked out piano lesson we kicked out gladiator two I predict nickel boys will make a comeback yeah nickel boys and I also think there's a very strong case for Romelle Ross and director and some of that will be relative to whether there's um European

representation or whether like a Corley Farge or or Audi art gets into that category if they do not there is a place for a nickel boys is the most directed movie of the year yeah it is very much a vision and so we'll see on that but we'll wait because the movie's not even out for another month

and then even then I think it's going to be a fairly limited release the event interest on John think laser comparison on that I think whole precisely so yes precisely um number 10 the substance which I just love that we're putting it on I don't know if it's going to last in the season

but I like they were doing it number nine syncing number eight blitz number seven a real pain congrats Joanna number six dune part two number five wicked part one number four Amelia Perez which we will speak about momentarily number three the brutalist number two concave and number one

the front runner in the race anora this episode is brought to you by eBay we've all got a thing for me it's blue race and that is just the sort of thing eBay is perfect for like even at 2 a.m when you can't get that disc off your mind you can be on eBay scrolling your favorite seller's store

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and we've actually got some coke zero sugar right here in my little studio let's give it a try nice beautiful like kind of a darkest red can it's gonna give it a whirl my fingernails oh there we go oh yeah okay let's try it wow that's really good coke zero sugar delicious incredible taste and again zero sugar best co-caver we'll take another step that might be the best coke ever god that's delicious best coke ever I think so click or tap the banner to find out so let's talk about emulator s

okay it's on Netflix boy people seem to not like this movie have you been seeing the feet the the letter box reviews and the tweets and the cutting out the scenes from the film and it's divisive this is this is like watching the um Amelia Perez clips be ridiculed on social media

is giving me such strong a marriage story flashback like necklet Netflix is like lives and dies by the by the memes that come out of their movies and like uh yeah I liked this movie I was captivated by this movie and I and then there was never a moment where I could predict what would happen next

you know it's got like a telenevella plot um and as a huge musicals fan uh I was really intrigued by it as like a musical property but given that it's based on an opera like it is much more operatic in that we're singing through dialogue rather than like having big musical numbers

with a few exceptions like Zoe sold on a centric exceptions um but yeah what a what a movie this is that I saw on the theaters and I'm glad exists I'm really really glad it exists that's that's something I'll say I will say the the clip that I when I first saw the movie I saw this scene of

the musical number set and the uh the surgery wing is saying oh god that's gonna go viral in twitter and people are gonna get really mad about it and that is exactly what has happened like it is very easy to spot when you're watching this movie that out of context this will I mean every crazy

in context like that specific musical number where you have Zoe's on it in a um generous i'm a clinic in Switzerland or something um it's wild when you're watching it it's not like the movie makes any of that uh seem any less crazy but when you're sitting down for all these big swings and you're

watching them on top of each other I do think there is a coherence not the right word because I do think it's all over the place and I think that's part of the appeal of it but there's a vision to it there's a reason that all this is happening it all fits as part of a whole and like I think Zoe

Saldana she's the best to show in the movie for me like she's understanding the world that this performance is existing in really well and she it starts off with this another musical all around her kind of set in the streets in my Mexico city that's a lot more grounded than that one

that was my favorite yeah it's really good and she has the one at the gallery there where she's dancing on the tables she's a great dancer she always has been um so yeah it doesn't all the pieces don't necessarily fit perfectly together but I I hate the like experiencing out of context even

if that particular musical number you know and it where this movie lands in its politics like is absolutely up for consideration but I think people need to see the whole thing before they can you know decide that this is so offensive to their sensibilities that they don't want to watch it

that's I'm sorry no it's not like a perfect comp to marry story but it drew me absolutely up the wall when people took that Adam Driver screaming scene out of context it's like inside the movie yeah this works very well I thought I was devastated by that but much more so than anything in

in the melee press for me which I okay I'll put a little bit of context around the film so it isn't written and directed by a Jacques Audi art it is roughly based on an opera um it stars Zoe Saldaña Carla Sofia Gascon sling Gomez at Gourmira's handful of others it won the jury prize at can

in May Audi art this is his tenth feature he is an icon in France he is an occasional interloper with American audiences a profit was nominated for international feature in 2010 I still think that's his best film so film that is somewhat similar but also wildly different I think he tends

to shift pretty dramatically in tonality but the way that he expresses his stories and the way that his characters express is always very big he is a maximalist filmmaker you know rusted bone is a very maximal film the sisters brothers is a quiet movie but it's a very big movie and I'm always kind of interested in what he's doing I think this movie is ultimately a failed experiment it's cool that he tried it if he didn't have Zoe Saldaña I don't think the movie would have worked

at all she really every time it's working for me she's in the frame it's not which is not a criticism of Carlos Sofia guest going who I think has an incredibly challenging role here playing both a pre-transition man and also a post transition woman and there has been some debate about

rendering those two things and this sort of like going back in time going forward in time and what the sensitivities are around that I don't claim to be an expert on this topic I don't if someone is deeply offended by it I understand I think she has a big challenge and the film is not

well written enough to kind of pull off that aspect of the story for me ultimately and I also thought Selena Gomez was not good and I obviously is going to draw a lot of attention to this movie but she feels way out of her league relative to the other two central performances so for me because

of that it's super mix all that's when you're what you're the it takes you out of the movie when the energy is shifting every eight minutes on what kind of a movie it is and so I struggle with that a bit I also like I thought Selena Gomez was extremely distracting and that's a kind of character

that I love and I really wish I could have seen someone who was like more up for it the salty ex why what's the hot hot mess express she's just like a hot mess express and I love that kind of character and and I just think Selena Gomez you know despite her obviously like musical talent was

just like not up for this gig I'm baffled by Edgar Amiris being here in such a small quantity like it's such a weird deployment of Edgar Amiris and I I liked Carlos Sofia guest going I think a bit better than both of you but I will say I think the height of it was the dinner where she first

reveals herself to Zoizal and I was like on the edge of my scene I agree that scene is great great I was just like enthralled by it yeah and I like enthralled by both of them and I just like yeah I just this again I want this movie to work better than it does and I am so glad when someone who

has big ideas tries something yeah and so then there's gonna be like parts of this movie then I'm gonna remember forever and then there's gonna be parts of this movie that my brain is just gonna let go of and that's sort of how I feel about it I do like Carla could bet actually and

I interviewed her a while ago and she's such a bubbly lively person to talk to so I was just at at that point you know right after Toronto and tell you right I was like oh get her in a room with voters and they're gonna lose their minds because she's such a fun like person to talk to

and really different from this very reserved character that she's playing on screen in both iterations um you know her singing is not she would say for the first person say she's not like the strongest singer so like it is tricky when these songs are not like super traditional like

song songs I can't really hum any of them and like giving them to various people's voices is more of a challenge um but there's I agree with you on that scene Joanna where you know she and Zosadania said at the dinner table and the drama of that the way the lights cut out the way they start singing

like that's what you get when this movie is such a weird experiment so like you're gonna have to get that and then you're also gonna get songs that like don't work nearly as well and that's that's the buy-in and so even though I was buying it with it like you were would ever anyone says

like oh my god I couldn't stand a minute of it I'm like okay I respect that I understand where you're coming yeah yeah yeah I don't I don't come out on that I didn't despise the movie or anything like that I think it's it's it is really trying to do something that has essentially never been

done in terms of the the multi layering of story types and the shifting of tone so dramatically over and over again I just think it's a it's a really messy stew it's like you know putting cinnamon and salsa you know it's like these things are not they don't go together you know and they don't

I want to try that though yeah I so I think I just I was constantly kind of bumping on the movie where I was like man okay I'm in the middle of a movie where someone's trying to do something weird in a movie and so I feel it's kind of a difficult thing to talk about because what I don't want to

do is like discourage somebody from trying to expand what the movie form is you know like what movie storytelling can be I think it's also it's not one or two like three or four super complicated ideas social ideas that are coursing through the world right now you know in particular

there's something very messy about the back half of the movie where Carlos Sofia Gascon's character has this kind of epic realization when she is handed a missing poster about the destruction that has been brought upon Mexico by cartels and cartel violence and all the missing children the vanished

people and women of the country and so she decides to start like an NGO in which she attempts to kind of save or or or do justice by this problem that she is manifestly responsible for as a former but I love I love that right that's so that she has this like saintly redemption arc and then

when she is challenged inside of her own house by Selena Gomez's character the sort of the nasty crime boss side of her is just right under the surface and comes right back up you know and so it's like it's so messy but I like you're watching and you're like you're watching it you're watching

it's very like Eva Perone like it's very like you're the hypocrisy of it is is astonishing and then she has this like other love story and you're sort of like do you get to have this based on all these other things that you've done and then when she sort of reveals that this other part of her

not gender wise but like personality wise is still like right there under the polished surface I found that really powerful inside the movie yeah there's just like a I it felt just feel like a strain in the storytelling that only people who have money can fix problems I kind of hate I

think is like kind of gross and feels like you know Jacques O'Dierds a very elevated artist you know he's the son of a filmmaker he's he lives in a very rarefied status and it feels like a very unexamined idea to me especially because this figure at the end of the film is celebrated as this

kind of icon of justice literal icon yeah which just it all felt a little bit wrong headed to me um and so maybe you're right maybe it is more complex in the sort of like the hypocrisy of it is what we're meant to take away from it Joanne I didn't feel it when I was watching it I just think I think

that like I mean perhaps Zodania's characters like belief in Amelia undercuts this point that I'm just about to make but like to me it's just saying all these people that you think are these like virtuous saviors or whatever have this can often do especially people with massive

amounts of wealth how did they get it have this like other side well we would never have that in America though we don't have that with our leaders now we're squeaky clean yeah how do you of film is so divisive uh and not just not just divisive but like people really dislike this movie how do you feel like it became a festival jury prize winner and how do you think it was that Netflix looked at this and said this is the thing we're going to put all of our muscle behind I think it may

I think the festival jury pricing is not so hard to explain as a festival jury is like eight people you know like that's enough people like being on its wavelength um and one you know the all four of the actresses like one best actress prize together like there's you know there's something kind

of exciting about watching all that happen together Netflix going all in on it is the part that I'm still kind of wrapping my head around I mean they had a kind of small slate going into this year we were talking about that earlier with um you know with the strikes and everything so it's kind

like they went to can trying to figure out what their thing was going to be they weren't going to get a Nora so like this kind of felt like the next thing they could do it's a weird fit for all of the new you know the new Netflix that we're talking about even compared to some of the previous um

films they've backed as their big Oscar contenders so I admire them I'm glad they're going all for it like it's maybe the strangest movie that they've shepherded through the award season but it is I feel like if Netflix hadn't gotten behind it like it could easily be like a bleaker street release

that we'd be like oh yeah okay that's an interesting thing that so I said on you did moving on and then never talk about it again yeah I think I think it's a little bit more calculated than that to be honest I mean in terms of how it won it's very obvious to me how it won which is that

Audi artist and icon in France he's won the pom door he's won I think he's one best director I can in the past he is he is one of the essential French filmmakers of last 35 years so there's that plus you have insulin Gomez an incredibly famous person who you can use to advertise the film

and this is a global film on a global streaming platform it is a movie that features a Dominican Puerto Rican actress a Mexican actress a Spanish actress you've got Edgar Muras in there you've got a French filmmaker it's set all across the it's a content and hopping story it appeals to a

big broad audience even if some of the social themes are you know like a somewhat divisive in the way that it's told it's got huge elements of like straight down the middle secario style crime thriller and you know especially in the final act that it you know will appeal to a lot of people

I think the musical stuff is very hit or miss because of the compositions but as soon as Zoe saw Daniel started sort of like talk sing rapping in that first number walking down the street I was like wow this is captivating like I've never seen her do this before she's got incredible chops

and I'm not quite seen a story like this I think your point though Katie about how like these are not humble songs it's really gonna be held against it in that respect especially when you compare it to something like wicked part one which is just nine yearworms lodging to your head but

I can I can really see this sort of both commercial and awards instincts that the company had coming off of a strike here with a sort of decentralized awards apparatus inside of the company whether or not it's actually going to do what it wants to do I don't know I don't I mean if this has 10

nominations in zero wins will you be surprised no do you think do you think it doesn't have a strong chance in international feature I haven't assuming so but I haven't gone back and looked slightly at what else is up to it did feel like kind of the heavy hitter there it definitely is the

front runner and I think that all we imagine is like for example not being selected by India very very clearly yeah means that Amelia Perez has a big opportunity I and I think it's one of those things where like if it gets nominated for best picture which we all think it will at this

point in the year that that one of those things where it's like it's nominee and both international feature and best picture that sort of like makes it feel like you know the top of the top inside of the international feature category so that's what happened with zone of interest one year yeah yeah

yeah I mean see did the sacred fig is another can title that Germany is submitted like that one I haven't seen that one but I know it's got like big critical support and then one that I saw at Toronto I don't know if you guys have seen I'm still here the Walter cells resilient film I

was supposed to see it yesterday in a lunch ran long and I missed it it's so good huge hit in Brazil right now oh like one of the biggest films in years yeah I mean like it's got you probably have time to talk about it later but when I saw that one I was like okay like if people see that

international features such a strange category every single year the short list is going to come in December we'll see what's in there but there is competition and it's not Amelia Perez walking away with it I don't think yeah see do the sacred fig is neon I was a little bit more mixed on that

as well but it certainly is a very timely film that you could see breaking through I guess you're right Joe that we should be considering it for holding space for international I also feel like so it's done you could win still despite all the skepticism around Amelia Perez like she's really

horrific in this movie she is and then and it's such a good sorry to bring my like house of our credentials in here but it's such a good post Gamora like move for her like she is having such a good I'm putting my marvel money to use to do exactly what I want to do kind of career

right now all do respect her her post Gamora move was Linus Linus I knew you're gonna say Linus in conjunction with Amelia Perez is a real strong Zoe move so yeah let's let's talk about supporting actress in a little bit more depth here as I always tell Donia I think is a

front runner if Ariana Grande kicks out Selena Gomez from her slot supporting actress it will be extremely funny the all the okay that 2010's pop star wars just coming back to Bruce that does kind of work sorry I love Selena personally she's just not good in this movie so you know if

someone lets take her spot then I think okay here here's what I think is in contention for supporting actress right now we've gots always tell Donia we mentioned Sursher Ronan in blitz we mentioned Daniel deadwiler in the piano lesson we mentioned Ariana Grande we mentioned Selena Gomez I think it's

gonna be tough for her to with Zoe so don't you already pretty far ahead there and then there's Isabella Rosalini there it from Conclay if which is a very small part there's Felicity Jones from the brutalist which I would argue is the least well-written aspect of that film but we can

talk about that um and then what else maybe Carrie Coon and his three daughters Monica Barbaro in a complete unknown on general's Taylor and the nickel boys I think she's like in terms of single got an active contender from that movie I think she has the best chance it's a good point

are they running Margaret quality and lead they're running her in supporting at least according to people on gold derby which is usually what it takes my bestful I would say yeah that would be extremely well well deserved do you see Demi Morganing into best actress she's not on my little

post it that I wrote for myself although that's been a while now and the best actress is so crazy it's so competitive I've been thinking about Carl Sofie Gaskone actually because she stands to be the first openly trans actor to ever get an acting nomination and I think her not getting in would be

read as this enormous snub even though I think with what we've talked about Amelia Perez it's a challenge for reasons completely outside of representation um because there's like 10 excellent best actress contenders and you know you could just pick and choose at random and have a perfect line up

there yeah I'm really I have not really spent enough time thinking about best actress other than I think Mikey Madison is gonna win but Angelina Jolie and till the Swinton and Nicole Kidman are all competing pretty hard in that category and Cynthia Rivo now if wicked is the phenomenon that we

expect it could be a little tricky Marianne Jean Baptiste do not sleep on her hard truce is playing like gangbusters everywhere it goes good point hmm I don't know guys I mean this happens every year right where at least the last couple years or best actresses just this absolute bloodbath and

best actor you're like um who can we put number five yeah every single year I'd like man Dominie I like winning so many ways and this is the one place where the actresses pick up every single audition for a school play I never attended like three guys go find someone from the 14 we want

to audition exactly I never was one of those guys I think I regret being one not being one of those guys that would have been a good lifestyle choice for me yeah you would have crushed yeah straight guy who looks theater yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah hmm missed opportunity another life Sean another

life yeah it's too bad I was too busy being Timothy Schellman Lady Bird meeting Howard Zinn on the hood of my car parking lot call things tight yeah I mean honestly that's one of the most accurate movies ever made that movie is chilling how accurate it is and yet you still have a cell phone

you know they're following me well I you know I just got co-opted by the system you know now I'm a part of the machine yeah we all it all have a power broker now yeah yeah what else do you want to say about I mean the merely president movie that like people have been talking about for

seven months I watched it again last night I was like yeah it's all right I think I think people should see it but I think it's a really hard to our earlier conversation about the brutalist a really hard home watch uh you know you have like especially I mean especially because it's you

have to watch with subtitles you know what I mean and like people are used to doing that uh with a lot of Netflix content but I still think because it just swings all over the place in tone it's such an easy thing to just pause and walk away from us like that and so I would argue that

that that like makes you cut you like you turn away for a second they're like wait what's going on it kind of like when I revisit home it kind of threw me back in more than I expected it to I just I if anyone's listened this far and hasn't seen it I think you should see it yes that's

what I would say I really think you should see it and I think you should see enough theater um but you know if you want to watch it home that works too but like I don't think it's a successful experiment but it's uh you know it's an experiment worth looking at I would say my prediction is

going to be it's going to get more like the people who only watch the clips on Twitter and see the negative letterbox reviews are going to see like wait how many Oscar nominations did this get like it's going to feel like a surprise I just want like predict that that will happen like it's going to

do well with nominations whether it wins anything I think it's going to stick around long enough to do that yeah I've seen it compared to crash on social media which is a bit rude um but the Academy has a history of nominating movies that are that feel like they're not going to age well you know that feel like they're almost fantasies like what could you but what could you mean like what green what in the green book are you talking yeah you know it's another movie I don't think is that

it's going to do with green book but you know that's another example of a you know bohemian rhapsody is a film that had many many Oscar nominations that is like actively bad went viral social media for being poorly made and yet it worked out anyway so yeah and like our list that

we made is better than that those movies yes and we made a list of like really good movies that we think are the best picture contentors like you know the best picture 10 over the last 10 years it's just like the batting average has gone up so high like it just gets better so like if you have

one in there that's divisive and like maybe only appealing in the broadest way to a smaller group of voters like that's usually what happens well I think this was a successful experiment I'm really I'm happy to have reunited you guys on the podcast talking about awards that's really great any

closing thoughts I love talking I love making an Oscar list and then immediately regretting it and feeling like I could just should have changed it and for some reason that brings us joy why do we do this to ourselves I don't know but it's um it's the only only way I know how to do it

I like to think um it's something about uh fixing the pain of my my childhood because there's something I have to like only I can just get this right I know I can just guess these movies correctly I don't know if this is against company policy but I'll just say that like

following Katie Rich's newsletter has been one of the joys of my life uh so she's the angler and it keeps me really well informed and they're really fun reads so I suggest that you subscribe to Katie's news that on the Spotify HR is gonna have to give you a call I appreciate

hope that was worth that that's not how it works here come on guys this is a very warm generous like go you're on the episode for crying out listen to the prestige junkie podcast read Katie's newsletter uh joan and where you're on like a 14 pods what what pods are you on these days

how's the bar trial by content prestige TV which is not the same as prestige junkie but I did not steal your title I promise it was there before I got that we know we know that's it nothing else you know what you're not appearing on the ringer NFL show these days um stay tuned

who knows how exciting thank you Katie and Joanna thanks to jack sanders thanks to our producer Bobby Wagner for his work on today's episode I'm sitting right beside him here in the New York office how exciting next week on the show Joanna is coming back we're talking about two films one

the film that she um insulted a real pain and no mine is the wards chances which I think is one of the best movies of the year uh starting here in Culkin and Jesse Eisenberg and we'll also talk about red one which I still have not seen but I'm not hearing great things about it you and I have a great weekend in front of us wow guys that film we'll see you guys then