The Better Business Analysis Institute. Presents the Better Business Analysis podcast with. Kingsman Walsh Hi everybody and welcome to the show. Today I have a very special guest and that guest is Ashwin Shikar, also known as Ash to his friends. Ash loves his craft beer and he's a great BA. Ash also has an amazing back story.
He was originally born in India. He completed his studies there and actually has a Bachelor of Communication and Media Studies from Chennai University. He then traveled to Dubai where he worked in media and advertising and other related industries. Before making a determination that he wanted to be a business analyst.
He looked around the world and he applied for the Bachelor of Professional Business Analysis at Victoria University here in New Zealand. He was accepted, he completed his degree and later he finished his master's in business analysis. Ash currently works for Surety Consulting as a Business Analyst consultant, and his latest gig or his project that he's on at the moment is where he is required to be both a business analyst and a data analyst.
So we're going to get into that today and it's lovely to have you here, Ash. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Ben. Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, feels good. So, Ash, you've got an interesting career, obviously born in India and you've made your way to New Zealand. Maybe you could tell us a bit about your background? Yeah, sure. Where do I start? I mean, I think I've been in quite a few industries as you mentioned. It took me some time before I got to.
Where I am and what I'm doing right now, I started off as you mentioned, doing a Bachelors in Visual Communication. So that's more of into the IT was, yeah, it was an interesting degree As such. It touched on the surface of a lot of topics, more around media itself, but the things which really. Appealed to me from that was graphic designing and content writing. That's where I quickly found out where my passion lies.
And also that is where I found that I was pretty keen on the aspect of paying attention to detail as well. Not only from a design perspective but also from a content perspective as well. So finished up the degree, I moved to Dubai. I got my first role as advertisement controller for a publication called Gulf News, and I spent about five years in that company. It was more around building ads, proofreading ads, making sure that they are compliant with different industry standards and
government standards. But for some reason all my peers and all my managers saw that spark in me in terms of client relationships and client engagement. So that's where I thought, OK, it's probably a good turn to move to a role which was more customer facing. So that's when I got into client servicing as a role and I had, I had a really good opportunity to work for a company called EMAR. They are the property constructors, so they essentially own the Dubai Mall and the Burj.
Khalifa, yeah. So I was basically working as a client servicing executive for some time for a particular entertainment attraction of this. It was a company called Kidzania where they kind of it was a role-playing activity which we provided for kids, where they kind of learn what it is to go out into the real world.
And we tried to mimic kind of activities that they would really need to do in the future and instill those values in them as well, giving them knowledge about what does it mean to have. Kind of a career or a job or a skill set and the importance of education as well and how you can actually achieve those things. So from client servicing, I moved into the sponsorship space wherein I was in charge of bringing in clients who could provide that facility to the
kids. So that was an interesting space as well and combining that experience with publication. Experience. I kind of moved into an account management role where I started looking at selling ads for a magazine that was print and digital. So it kind of gave me a good understanding in terms of how to manage people. A lot of things, a lot of things. Did you from that, Yeah. So you were kind of on this journey, if you like.
Working out what you what you wanted to achieve which is very very common for a lot of Bas. They don't a lot of them don't necessarily start in the business analysis space. Even myself who may have had a bit more of a structured career from working out it you know I went to did sound engineering or you know I traveled the world OK. So you're finding yourself in Dubai. You've done quite a lot of, quite a lot of stuff. I. Did a lot of stuff.
And then I thought, okay, yes, go ahead it was. Time. And then I decided, yes, it's time to actually take a completely change. I wanted to move places as well and it so happened that Wellington in New Zealand came up as an option and that's when
I heard about. Career in business analysis is an opportunity and that kind of was a perfect fit for me because it encapsulated all the skill sets that I had learnt or where I had experience in. And that's when I decided to move to New Zealand. A friend of mine, his wife, had completed the course from Victoria University some time before. And she recommended the place and I moved here, completed the Masters and the rest was
history, I would guess. But New Zealand has been really kind to me. A lot of opportunities. It was hard, it was difficult finding your feet within the industry because Master A Masters does give you that foot in the door. But it is a bit difficult. It definitely is. Difficult to get into it. So yeah, let me, let me let me ask you that question. So you've got yourself to New Zealand.
You've had you've had a lot of experience actually quite in a corporate environment quite you know high level roles would be like or at least middle management roles quite a lot of
exposure. So confidence when dealing with clients and after a lot of people who are who aren't, who weren't born in New Zealand or even want to, you know I guess more of the Western countries if you like, who will, will, will listen to this podcast and have interest about how you firstly were able to even get into New Zealand or or Australia. Not that we're special, but that there is you know a visa process there. So I think a lot of people will be encouraged to hear what they've heard.
And I guess your your, your story wasn't just you know work in a contact center you know staying there you went to do what you've done a few things which would have helped. So tell me, I guess I've got two questions there. One is, why do you think that you were easily accepted into New Zealand in the 1st place? And then secondly, with the Masters program, how did you get into that? And then we'll talk about how that might have helped you next to. Address the first question.
It wasn't an easy journey getting to New Zealand. To be honest. I had to do a lot of research as well. It was trying to gauge which is the best location. 1st, to move to because I wanted to move to a place where and I could call it my home in the future. That was a long term goal for me, and not only that, the only institute where I would say that specializes in business
analysis. Was only offered through Victoria University, so that became an easy choice for me in terms of narrowing down the country and the region that I wanted to stay in and considering the experience that I had, which came from a design background and from a communication background and client management as well, that helped it. Helped me really easily transition into the role of a business analysis, business
analyst I would say. So that was that was the main driver and what facilitated me as well. So just to clarify, you came in on a student visa? Yes, yes. OK, cool. So. I came in on a student visa which offered me also a three-year work. Visa post completion. So that was one of the perks of also choosing New Zealand as a country because any other part of the world like Australia or Canada, they don't have that three-year facility for a work visa.
And and also when I mentioned in terms of specialization in business analysis, I don't think that any any other university provides that it is, it's probably a supplementary. Course or kind of a major as part of our information technology degree or something? Like that, so that was. One of the biggest, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, obviously I went to university a long time before you. I'm a little bit older than you,
Ash, but I just slightly. But when I went to Waikato, you know, which is known as a computer science hub in New Zealand and internationally, very much focused more on the programming side. There was not a specialization in terms of business analysis at all. In some ways the management of school had more of a focus on business, you know analyzing business if you like. So that was interesting. So yeah, there's.
So I think we've asked the time 1:00 you got through, you chose New Zealand for the right reasons. You've also got your work. You've now got your into your place in terms of, in terms of the University of Wellington and
back. And then you've also got the idea that you know that when if you finished a degree, you've got three years of work, which was what was one of the attracting factor, which is great because then you can prove yourself right And then and then you know that you can apply for a permanent residency after that, which would have been attractive. And you've now, yeah, you've actually found that there's not many even in the world. There's not many places where you can specialize.
In business analysis. So that's quite surprising, right? And that's quite amazing for our, for me and our field that that doesn't exist. OK, cool. So you've you land, you're going straight into your master's degree. And did you Were you originally a bachelor's moving to master's, or did you sign up for the master's program straight away? No, I finished my bachelor's, which was a three-year course, and then it was actually a gap of 10 years before I decided I
should study. Further. So I finished up my bachelor's back in 2008, and I did my master's in 2019, so it was exactly 10 years later. So. It was a big step for me, but I thought that was something necessary. Yeah, cool. And did you, how do you, in terms of your master's or your degree, that was, you know, from a university, which is, like we said, is quite unusual. How do you think that helped you in your career or even getting, you know, your first BA job here in New Zealand?
I think there are pros and cons to that. The best thing which came out of the Masters, I would say is giving you that strong foundation in the skill and that is the beauty of Victoria University as well and how they actually designed the curriculum. It touches on every single aspect what a business analyst needs to know from a technical perspective and from a business
perspective as well. Though see either way, it all depends upon you in terms of finding that space or that area which you would really like to specialize in and then gaining that experience. That's something which a Masters doesn't give you. It gives you all the tools. It gives you all the skill sets that you need to get your feet running. Yes, just like any other course. And the beauty about Victoria is, well, it gives you that opportunity to work hands on. With.
Some of the industry players as well and I had got that fabulous chance to actually work with certain organizations in New Zealand as part of the course itself. So I did my internship with New Zealand Stock Exchange which was a really good learning experience and. There were other organizations also which we touched upon like TEC. There was one which I really liked to Transparent Dog, the beer company. So it was interesting, but that's the beauty of the course
as well. The management go out of the way in terms of finding you something which can actually give you that hands on training. And that is something which is really good with Victoria University, Yeah. No, Yeah. So I would have to say that that's fantastic to hear. And I think as we've, as we talk about often, you know it's the devil is in the detail once you're working, you start to apply these skills. So it's really hard to apply some of the things.
To the health. And that's the other side of doing a masters as well, because once your foundation is strong. See, what I've realized is as a business analyst, once you have a masters, it gives you that foot on the door. It gives you a strong foundation, but it doesn't count
for the experience as well. The experience is something that you need to gain on the job, and at times, once you fill your basket with so many things that you can do or how you can approach things, it's up to the individual to know which. Tool to actually take out of his box, to apply for the situation and that's where it goes back to that individual and how you can gauge a situation and how you know what is best for the
problem at hand. So that is something which I don't think any any degree can teach you. That's that's something which comes with experience and as much as experience that I've come from different backgrounds. And yes, it helps me with my current job, but. As a business analyst, I'm not new, but at the same time I'm there, I'm somewhere intermediate as I would say
intermediate to senior. The only reason which is stopping me from becoming a senior or anything is having that what you would say, that presence of mine. And knowing exactly how to react to different situations. And it goes back to what I was saying in terms of sometimes if you have too many options, then you might get stuck in terms of which option do you go with. And that can become a contradiction. Yeah, no, I completely agree.
I think that that's well said. I mean I'm going to clarify something with you from my perspective and I'm going to talk about I guess a little bit about the bit of business Analysis Institute and how we've tried to address what you've just talked about there. I think it's really good. I mean I've heard great things from yourself. You know, I've seen it advertised in terms of the degree. It definitely sounds like there was value at the Vic degree and how they've approached the
curriculum which is modern day. So I think that's fantastic. One thing I want to clarify is you call yourself an intermediate BA. What I would say, knowing that you know we worked together in the past is you are actually a senior business analyst if you were out in the market. So for listeners, you're looking for a beer at some point. ASH is definitely a senior business analyst and we'll talk
about this in a minute. However, Ash works in a consultancy company and I would say that consultancy business analysis is more difficult than permanent business analysis. That's that well might get a whole lot of messages from us. You're working for a consultancy. You have to understand each client. You have to rapidly understand what's going on. It's a little bit like contract business analysis.
So Ash, just so you know, I do consider yourself a senior business analyst in market terms, yes, 100%. And the other aspect, I think just coming through here and I'll ask you how you think this relates. So you've got your degree, you've done some work experience through internship, which is fantastic. And like we talked about, you talked about the New Zealand Stock Exchange, NZX Para Dog, which happens to be a brewery, which I can understand you love your craft beer.
And then the other option was TC, which is actually our Tertiary Education Commission here in New Zealand which funds our universities and polytechnics In terms of what we've tried to do in the Better Business Analysis Institute is 1 can dense that knowledge in terms of its backbone in terms of a six weeks, you know well level one, level 2, Level 3, but level one course in terms of six weeks. But also I think what's important is what tool do you
take out of your toolbox. You've just mentioned that and and and and and I think there's a lot of Bas who are probably listening going of maybe the I IBA certified, maybe they've got a degree, they what do I use, what phase am I in in the project and what tool do I use? Is that kind of, am I, am I kind of picking up what you're putting down here? Is that? What you're talking about,
absolutely. Because at different stages of a project life cycle, there are different tools that you're being taught as as an analyst in order to best address the situation at hand. And there are multiple ways. There's no right way. There's no wrong way. And you can also use a hybrid of different approaches as well, but knowing when to use it, how to use it, and especially knowing when to do pull back if you know that something you've tried and it's not working. I think, yeah.
That that that is what stands you apart from the rest, and that comes with experience, but that also comes with having a good presence of mind as well. You need to. You need to as they say you need to read your. Audience, Yes, it goes to the same way as well. In terms of when you're trying to implement something, try to see how it's going. If it's not working, don't feel safe. Scared to say that. No it's not. Let's let's try something.
The sooner you do that, the better it is in terms of what you're trying to deliver. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. I mean, one of the things that I think we've talked about maybe through some coaching sessions is step back. So you you talk about presence of mind, so you're in the environment, use presence of mind, you know, focus on what you're doing, which I think is great advice. And then I think I'm an extension of that for me and I'm not very good at Peace of Mind
by the way. But one of the things I am good at is stepping back. And I think when people say step back, not not necessarily step back for breath, which is also good mental health wise, but step up from whatever you're doing as a BA, you never have. You never. You'll never fail if you step. Up.
In terms of the organizational structure closer to your actual ultimate end client, either being the customer, external customer or your ultimate business, you know, business organization, so OK, cool, so, so, so right now in terms of your world, you're you're a consultant moving into a senior consultant. And the piece of work that you're working on now is for a large New Zealand client and you happen to be working in the data analysis space. Would that be fair? To say okay, So what?
How do you? Define it. How do you define what you're working on right now? It's a tricky one, yeah. And I mean. The thing that I would say is tricky about the project that I'm working on is I'm basically shuffling between the business architect and the solution architect within the data space. So as a business analyst, from a business perspective, you're looking at requirements, you're looking at different aspects of
data. Yes, you go into the of the data, but from a technical perspective and you're working with solution architect, that's more of going into the technical side of how do you actually build your database or how do you actually so. You're in a hybrid situation of kind of BA hat as well as DA, yeah. So data analytics or data analytics? Role can be split up, right? And we've talked about this, I've talked about this for some team members.
So one, you've got the consumption of data, so how you would consume the data in order to meet business requirements, is that right? And then the other one is actually processing the data and how we're going to actually engineer the data in a technical way to get out what we want. Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely. How, how? How are you actually gonna? What is the data that you need? How are you going to get it? How is it going to be ingested into a database?
What type of a database that you think is suitable for the organization? So all those decisions also you need to keep in mind and that's where actually it goes back to what I was saying in terms of a business analyst and the education that you get, you get the foundations, you know you have a strong footing in terms of. Having that overall picture, having that overall understanding, it just boils down to you as an individual and how far do you want to actually step forward and go right?
Cuz you're not bound to know everything. Nobody's bound to know everything. And. But you never do, right? That's part of our as most projects no matter what. Even I get nervous now I've done the maybe the I know what the gig's gonna involve. And you just don't know. It's if the people are different, even if the processes are fundamentally the same that biggerly called something different, you know you don't and usually the context is slightly different or at least the data is different.
So therefore, yeah, so, so I think the unknown, the known unknowns or the puzzle because it is puzzle piece is, is just what BA is about and that's OK. Absolutely. And being a BA, I think you need to be open to that. You have to have that mindset wherein you're going into something which is gonna be completely ambiguous, and how do you actually manage through that?
And you need to be confident as an individual, and you need to believe in yourself as well, because if not, then this is the wrong kind of career path for you. If you don't think of it in that way, yeah. No, I think a good analogy that I use often is. You're driving down the street, so imagine a street, right? Maybe it's a barren street at night, and there's mist. You you can you can take two approaches.
You you don't know what's ahead, so you can slow right down toward crawling pace, and the world will become clearer to you as you move forward. Or you can drive at a safe pace, so a little bit faster. Just expect that you're ready for the unknown. And I think a BA needs to operate in that the speed needs to still be there or not necessarily at the full degree. And you just need to accept that you just don't know what's next. And then as you move closer, the
mist clears as you move forward. And I think that is probably a good analogy for what we deal with and that never goes away. Absolutely, as part of your your education or learning as well you. There's something called the VUCA framework which you go through which kind of helps you assess different situations and how to react to different types of environments, but that is something that you can apply to your personal self as well to see. How exactly? You are saying that?
Yeah, explain that to me. So the VUCA it's something which is your vulnerability, different, accountable it's. You put me on the spot right now. And that's OK. I'm not gonna give you a quiz, but it's something for people to work at. How do you say the framework? And I'll get. So it's called the VUCA framework. It's basically, yeah, VUCA. So it's different ways of actually assessing a different type of an environment. So that's something that you're being. Volatility. And volatility.
There you go. Not vulnerability. Yeah, ambiguity. That's the one. That's the one, yeah. So that's something that you can apply to your individual self at any given time as well, because you're put into situations wherein from a project perspective or from a role perspective, you're trying to gauge things from different levels. But sometimes, as you were saying, you also need to step back and actually assess yourself.
Also in terms of how are you planning to address certain things which are part of your project, How are you evaluating yourself also? That is very critical, I think, as an individual and as a professional also. Yeah. No, I completely agree. I think you're right. And I think those factors there are very, very important to review. So let's flip back into the fact that you've got these two roles.
What do you think is the difference between the data analysis space that you're having to do at the moment and the business analysis? What do you think the differences? I think there's not much of a difference. It's when you get completely technical. So that's where it stands out from a business. Business focused data analyst, you're basically doing more of the background, the design work you're looking at doing a lot of you're not delivering a product.
So the delivery happens by the technical PA, whereas all the kind of discovery that happens from a business side of a data analyst and that is where most of my time is going under the discovery side of things. Whereas having working close or rather working closely with the solution architect is giving me that level of kind of experience from the solutionizing aspect of
a data analyst as well. Because that's where it kind of gets a little bit technical because depending on the way that the reports or the way that data is going to be delivered and consumed by the business. There's a little bit of experience or expertise that you need from a technical side of things. And. That is where though I have that knowledge, though I come with the background around that it's. Always a new It's always new. Something ambiguous is already always coming up and you're
always volatile, right? It goes back to that framework as well, so you need to assess yourself. Also step back and assess things. If you don't know what is happening in a situation, always ask. That's the first place to go or also just take a just step back and see how exactly things are happening. But the key difference is, as a business analyst in the data space, you can either be in the discovery part of things or you can be in the delivery part of
things. And. Both are completely different skill sets that would come into play. Cool. So when we talk about the delivery side. Which I would consider not business analysis. So for me that's where the where you drop off not the Cliff but you drop into a new role you you you that's for.
So I think you're right. I think there is a whole of business data analysis slash BA work business data analysis which is the how datas could be consumed and used and that's where I draw the line and then the rest production. For me that is that's that's a technical role. That's a different. Mindset and actually you'd be stronger if you knew more about the tools. The latest technology, data science for example, would be where you should start. And do you agree with that in
terms of the viewers starting A? Game, Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, good. Yeah, cool. Now just a question about that, the delivery side, even though that's another job role if you like. This you said you're working closely with the solution architect and I've got a lot of architect friends. You know some that some it's quite interesting working with architect. Sometimes you can battle with them. There should always be tension with an architect because they want to design the perfect
solution. And you as a BA defining the requirements and not necessarily looking for perfection. You're looking for the outcome, right? Not necessarily a shiny piece of term now. I've done a lot of work back in the day, Systems analysis which is where BA first came about and Systems Analysis is now split between business analysis and also solution architecture. Do you think that the delivery side of data analysis is a sub function of solution architecture?
It's just the grunt work behind it. I think the solution architectures. Ends at very high level, right? So you're. Saying it's the low level version. Of I would say the low level is where actually the BA would get involved in, but in order for a solution architect to have that high level view, he has to be completely informed from the discovery side of things. So that's where a business analyst branches between everything. OK. Cool.
I'm gonna hold you there. So we've got our Discovery BA, which you're doing BA work. Feeding into a solution architect Completely agree. And a project manager is the three amigo model. But the grunt work under the solution, which is do you that role we're talking about? Sometimes people call it a technical BA role, yeah, sometimes they call it a systems analyst, sometimes they call it
maybe a specialist data science. Do you consider that just the the grunt work that the architect doesn't want to do? Or it's not their role because they are high paid professional at the high level? I mean. See, it depends upon what you've been contracted to do or what what you're you're being given to do.
But I think the more that the solution architect gets into that level of detail, the better informed he is or he or she is in terms of solutionizing something he needs, he or she needs to have that level of detail to make an informed decision. And that's where I think. The BA plays a really big role because thats the BAS responsibility to communicate that across correctly to those
concerned. Its getting the right level of information from the business and communicating that to the solution architects so that he can make decisions based off what is required, needed and not what is wanted or what he or she thinks is ideal for. For the business. Yeah, I'm pushing you there because it's an interesting space is that for me, I feel like it's it's the unknown factor about who who plays that role, who does the lower level.
It's actually solutionizing for me, it's solution. Because for example, let's take a really, really, really common example. You've got two systems and you want to take, let's just say someone's name, maybe it's in a full name field. So let's. Right. So Ben Walsh, and you're moving that to a new system, let's not worry about how it's moved, maybe through APIs And the other, the system you're moving it to has a first name and a last name field, Okay.
So you know there needs to be data transformation done and you have to map those fields, correct. And you can challenge me here, The business doesn't care how that's done. Yep. The business just wants first name here and they actually want, sorry, full name here. They may even want full name here. But you know that the database only accepts first name, last name, so you have to get it in there. For me, that's part of the solution Solutionizer. That's the solution that you're
putting in place. Yep. Is it the Ba's responsibility? I'll put you on the spot to provide that mapping and the pseudo code for transformation. Or is it the solution architect and the delivery teams? I would say it's definitely the business analyst's responsibility to actually provide that level of information. Wow, OK, that's what we might disagree. So for me that requires technical expertise and that's not value for the business. That is, well, it is valuable because it's working.
But for me that means you require a specialist skill in order to do that, and how you do that depends on the solution. And therefore the BA is not is not is too focused of the solution. It's quite interesting, that's, yeah. So probably it's worth clarifying when I said it's a responsibility of the BA, it's a responsibility of the BA to define how that happens. It's only the business who knows what level of transformation or what business logic is required. But they don't.
The business doesn't know. So the business has no idea that the solution is going to split into the database first name and last name. They don't care because they are at the user interface level, They just see a full name field. So why does that? The business doesn't understand how that performs. And this is this ambiguity phase, which for me is where Ba's need to step back and say,
actually we don't do that. What we do is we are focused on what the business wants and on their wants and their needs to deliver a solution. And for me personally and what would I, you know, push for in the Better Business Analysis Institute as we draw a line there and we said we don't do that. So what are your feelings? If I was drawing that line firstly, how would you feel if I draw that line? Would that make you frustrated?
I know you can do it. That's whether or not you should I. Would say. In an environment where you have adequate amount of resources, who can take that level of responsibility or have that clear delineation and most and most projects come with that resource capacity, so it is good to define that well in the beginning. In terms of where you draw that line, it shouldn't be a case that you get get into it
full-fledged. And then at some point down the delivery stream, you realize that this is something that needs to be delivered by a different resource and not by you. So having those, that is where project management comes into play. This has to be well clearly defined at the start of a project before you move into the delivery phase. Yeah, Yeah. So I think you're getting to a good point there. The reality is as with. A gig on one which is not dissimilar to what you will
focus on at the moment. It usually falls to the BA because there isn't anyone else. And you may have those skills, but you may not, right? That's the thing. It depends on the BA. Because if you're a business focused BA, you may not understand database structures. Or sorry, you might understand it at a conceptual level, but you might not understand data mapping, yeah? You know, really good. It's a really good debate.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. I mean, as an individual, you also need to know exactly what your strengths and weaknesses are and you need to communicate that across very clearly as well so that it doesn't fall on you as an where you become accountable for something. If you think that this is something that you do not have the level of expertise, or if you think that this is way ahead of you. Terms of what you can deliver, you need to be plain and simple
about it right from the start. So you said that you ended up in the situation you're having to do this lower level data mapping, which is what I which many Bas will find themselves because it will just be like have you done it or actually it's expected even if you don't have those skills because it's associated, what advice do you have for Bas in that situation? So the Bas first. They're playing in the data analysis space. They're having to do some of
this delivery work. What resources or skills, websites or skills or tools do you think BI should get familiar with, just in case they're in this situation? See, I would say it's completely depend. Having the general understanding in terms of how data mapping works itself, that gives you a really good head start. There are a lot of resources out. Out there, that can help you do that.
But depending on the solution that you're going with, if it's a specific solution, say if you're going with Power BI, there are a lot of learning resources there and everything can see. That's the thing. That's the beauty about a skill. It can be taught, right. It's different from a soft skill that is something managing people, for example. That's something that cannot be taught. You need to learn it. You have to go through that. Whereas a skill is something
that can be learned. You just need to put in that time and effort and have that kind of the mindset that you want to learn. Because if you don't have that, then it's not gonna be possible. In terms of resources, what are the places that you can go? There are different places if you're a visual person, I'm, I'm more of a visual person. I like watching videos in terms of how things are done. That helps me better keep myself better informed.
If there are some really critical things which I need some more knowledge around of I don't find any visual kind of a resource that can help me keep that informed. Then I would look to read additional about things. But I feel personally YouTube is a really good place to start as well the heaps of resources out there which can help you keep informed. So it just depends on find that resource which helps you the way that you are able to grasp
things. Yeah. I think one of the skills that we teach at the Better Business Analysis Institute, which we say is actually part of our framework, is a conceptual data model. So understanding the concept, so you have a conceptual data model and then under that you have the Physical model. So you kind of have a logic, the logic behind it. Logic I do think is the BA space.
So I think understanding what is a database table, even if the solution isn't a database table, understanding that there's something called a table with fields. Which have values and that are displayed to the user that we just talked about before the fact that fields can be joined together concatenated. I would suggest that understanding having advanced skills in Excel is always
helpful and exactly so I think. If you can use Excel with anger and you understand the concepts of a data model or database, relational database, don't worry about anything else. Then you should be in a good space to be able to tackle the basics of data analysis. Would be my two cents there. Yeah, absolutely. I'll completely agree with you.
A fairly good knowledge about Excel is a really good starting point for anything related to data, and that's something which is easily accessible to every single person as well. And then playing around, there's a lot of places where you can a lot of websites which allow you to model databases, query databases, relational databases, and I would recommend doing that. SQL, basically SQL or different
languages, depending. If you have an inkling of knowing where this project is going, what the solution is going to look like, playing around with that. There are so many places in on the Internet that you can go where and you have models or mockups of those type of solutions where you can just go play around with because that gives you an understanding and you need to have that base understanding of how things work.
Yes, conceptually, database, a relational database, What is the table, what is the dimension, What is the fact table. All that is good to know, but you also need to have that understanding in terms of what makes a fact table, what are the elements or what are the attributes, what is a
dimensional table. So all that when you from a theoretical perspective that is one kind of a mindset or giving you that base knowledge, but when you're actually applying it, it can be completely different because you're applying it to something which is very specific to an organization or to a project. So you need to have that that foundation very clear in terms of what what makes up those those building, building blocks. Building blocks, Yeah yeah yeah.
I think that's a good way of describing it if you understand the building blocks. And for me if you got to a position where the complexity was beyond, I've got this this tab in excel, this sheet which is a table and this is another tab sheet in excel and this is a table and this is the data I want in it. For me, that would be natural progression to go. Hey, we may need to bring in an actual data analyst to help us from this point.
Yep. And so they would understand how it's used, how it's structured, how it's going to be reported on, if you're getting down to DAX queries and Power BI. You are. That is not something that you can acquire in a couple of weeks. It's something that requires a few. You need to, you need to have a specialization in that area, and it's always best for a BA to make that delineation, as you said, once it moves into that highly technical space.
If you're not skilled enough to be accountable for that, make sure you make it clear and let someone else do that. Because if not, then yeah, it's not the right approach to go, yeah. No. But also as you're doing that, like you said, it's about time and meanwhile your users don't know what's going on and you should be spending time with them as a BA as opposed to down in the database. Yeah, no, that's really
interesting. So Ash is I'm gonna just ask you a couple of rapid fire questions before we wrap up today. It's been a really good conversation. What would you say is your least favorite thing about business analysis? The least favorite aspect is. He thinks. I know it's a very difficult
question, right? Because the only reason I got into it because I like everything but the most gruesome thing is I think trying to cope with ambiguity, if that is something which is always gonna happen and you need to get accustomed to it. Yeah. And what would you think your most favorite part of BA is? I think engaging with users? I do quite enjoy that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's pretty common now. Two other questions not related to BA. What is your favorite song of all time?
Ooh, there are so many. The one song, the one song which will always be my top favorite, is it's called An American Dream by the Nitty Gritty Dirt brand. Nice. Nice. Yeah. So I grew up. I grew up listening to that song, and that'll always be one of my favorites, yeah. And finally, your favorite movie. Ooh, my favorite movie. I would go with Pat Adams. Nice. Thank you very much, Ash. That's been a really great conversation. Hopefully those listening, you know there's different
perspectives. We've talked about the idea of a degree, you know, what they gave to you, the idea of your journey to get to New Zealand from, you know. Immigrating here. And then also finally just talking about BA and outer space and they'll debate around how far do you go as BA and when is it appropriate for you to, you know, call in for some some specialized help. Thank you, Ash. Thank you so much, Ben, as well for the opportunity. Yeah. Thank you. I'll speak to you soon. Bye. Bye.