There’s Always a Lighthouse, a Pokémon, a City

What are you guys going for, Halloween? Oh, no. Genuinely, I have a big problem. What is it? Because my big concern was that, and I think I talked about it on Rusty, is that my... son would pull a curveball and not want to dress up as the thing he was asking to dress up as. Oh, yeah.

which happened last year law dude yeah kids get messages kids get whatsapps about my kid doesn't even have whatsapps he gets whatsapp messages she's like well uh dang it i gotta change says yeah so this happened last year And this was after we bought a Yoshi costume for him. And then we last minute dressed him up as Link from Legend of Zelda. This year...

And somehow I was able to mind trick him into wearing the Yoshi costume from last year, which still fits. So he's into that. The problem is I've spent all this mental energy and I have no fucking idea what I'm going to dress as. Oh, yeah. Okay, well, there's still time. What is Glenn Calvin in this year? I'm not allowed to. My son is a firm rule in the house. He says, I am a ghost. Pasta? Our dog?

is a ghost mommy and daddy are not ghosts they are okay parents and i say that is fair i'm happy with that i like that he sounds like dracula though

He has been watching a lot of very classic Universal Monster movies, so he might be kind of picking up that cadence. Yeah, it's working. How about you, Hoops? Well, my kids are... gonna be k-pop demon hunters yeah sure and uh wait wait wait wait was there an argument over because there's only two of them so there what about the third one what oh oh sorry yes i understand the question now Sorry, it took me a second for my brain to catch up.

There are only two of, by of them, you meant my children that I brought into the earth with my loins. So there's a third unrepresented K-pop human. That's my wife, and I'm their manager, Bobby. I am disappointed. It's a great gig. for me i'm so stoked because bobby like the classic look for bobby is just a kind of a robe with t-shirt and sweats man i'm like feeling it i'm really excited about the role yeah that's you're living large sydney and i are also going to do mothman and braxy

Who's Braxy? Braxy is the... No, sorry. Braxy is the Braxton monster. Oh. She is going to be the flat monster. Does California have folklore monsters? I feel like the East Coast has all these amazing folk monsters. And then I moved to California and it's like, you're the five freeway. My wife is going to be the Flatwoods monster who is also known as Braxy. Got it. Because they're from Braxton County. And... There we go. Yeah. That's the clarification for you. I don't know about Braxy.

Braxton is from Braxton County. Let's see. According to the wiki, because I want to give you just facts, because if I give you hearsay, then that's not really going to tell you much. Sure. from Flatwoods, West Virginia, got a big sort of pointed head with two big yellow eyes, small little claw hands. There's a huge chair in Braxton County that looks like the Flatwoods monster that you can sit in. Is Braxton going to be pissed if I sit in his chair? It's more of a throne. Oh.

So definitely pissed. So more pissed, yeah, because there is some symbolic power. Hold on. Oh no, I found a picture of it and it's not what I want. Kids sitting. All the photos are like three kids having time as a dead-eyed giant colossal monster leers over them. Yeah, it's awesome. Wow, what an upsetting little critter.

Giant crater. No, no, Braxy rolls. So we're going to be Braxy Mothman. Okay. It's going to be good. I'll include this picture in the newsletter because, geez. Do the Braxy sound. Braxy, the Flatwoods monster. Wait, no, I mean, what does Braxy say? Oh, Braxy's, oh, okay. Oh, the famous saying? Yeah. Yeah. Braxy's famous saying? Uh-huh. Well.

Actually, guys, I'm not actually supposed to be talking about this. I forgot that this is not a West Virginia safe space, and Braxy would prefer that we not talk outside of West Virginia. That's very fair. Forget I said anything. I respect that. Here, men in black. Now dance. Listener, if you're still listening to this, rewind it and listen to the men in black sound again. And then fast forward past this part.

No. Listen, if you're still listening, you have to skip ahead. One of those will work. I'm sorry.

My name is Justin McElroy. I know the best game of the week. My name is Christopher Thomas-Plant, and I know the best game of the week. My name is Russ Froschek. I know the best game of the week. Welcome. To the besties, where we talk about the latest and greatest in home interactive entertainment. It's a video game club. And just by listening, you, my friend, have become a member of the club. Here's what happened. Okay. Griffin.

Caught so many Pokemon that his back broke. And now he can't move anymore. Can't carry the show, can't carry all the Pokemon, so he's not with us to talk about a Pokemon game. Sorry, I actually locked him out of the studio. He's pounding on the door outside. Please let me in. The saddest thing about it, too, is he had all the Pokemon but one.

on his back and his hands just juggling all the pokeballs and then he just had to get that last one he had to collect them all despite the warning you can't collect them all and he reached for it and let me tell you The weirdest thing about it, it was at the top of these stairs, about 300 stairs going up a mountain, and then he reached for it, and then all the balls just went down the stairs. And it was Weedle.

Surprisingly, it was Weedle. And it was Weedle. So, guys, when you come up and you yank the microphone out of my hand like that, you've got to keep the show moving towards...

Like, because we do have to do the parts where we say the name of the... No, you're right, you're right. Remember? Russ was like, he got up on stage like, Kanye. He ripped it out of my head. He's like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Hey, we're talking about the latest and the greatest, but this week we're talking about Pokemon Z to X.

And Keeper, what is Pokemon Z to A, Chris Plant? Well, thank you so much for asking. Pokemon Z to A or ZA or Zed Alpha or whatever you want to call it is the latest Pokemon entry. And it is a follow-up to Pokemon. Legends Arceus. But where that one was in the past, this one is in the pseudo future. And we've got another great game for you. We have...

Keeper. The latest game from Double Fine. That's right. Tim Schafer is still making games. He's never going to die. Lee Petty made this game. Chris Plant. Come on. Overseeing. Oh, yeah. From the... creator of stacked which was i enjoyed uh In other games. It's not stacked. That was my adult porno game. Stacking was the one that was a game. Stacked was my penthouse. Holy shit. Interactive adventure. Man, you get Griffin off the end, you get punchy. Can I take the break?

No, you can't because we just want to give you a moment to know that we are also available on Patreon. And if you want this comedic greatness, you can get it for $5 a month or you don't want ads. Hey, there's a $10 a cheer. and it's live right now, every episode ad free. Anyway, hey, Justin, take it away. We'll be right back. I want to say...

There was more I could have done to stop Chris Plant earlier, but I get high off of Russ being mad at somebody other than me sometimes. I love the feeling of it. I just want to fan the flames sometimes. Okay, Pokemon Legends Zah.

The legendary Za. I'm going to ask questions as a Pokemon idiot. Okay. And pretend that that's me, okay? Sure. Which flavor of Pokemon is this? Okay, good question. Which kind of a Pokemon? Sure. So there's the mainline turn-based Pokemon. This is not that. This is the new, I guess, more action-inspired Pokemon game.

which first started off with Pokemon Legends Arceus, which was a, again, more action. Was that the Western? That was the one that was set in like ancient Japan-ish. Okay. Yes. We played that one, right? Yes. And I didn't hate it. It didn't make me as sad as some of the other ones, right? It looks like a real video game, notably, where the other Pokemons look like a baby, kind of a... I mean, it has 3D graphics, so in that way it does. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so I'm remembering this now. So it's kind of Pokemon, a little bit more of a modern... vibe aesthetically well the the rcs was not or rcs was like uh ancient japan sorry i guess i meant technically speaking but yes We'll get to it. 3D. Let me dive in on the top level and we'll handle the top level questions and then we'll get to it below. Pokemon Legends ZA is set in the city.

That I think was first appeared in Pokemon X, whatever. It's a fucking French city that has appeared in a previous Pokemon game. And the entire game takes place in this city. And the premise of the city is that. Humans and Pokemon live together in this city in harmony. They have these wild areas where the Pokemon generally chill out. And then they have like city areas. And then you'll see like a bunch of Pokemon just walking around within the city.

From a gameplay standpoint, this continues the stuff that they were doing in Legends Arceus, where... All of your battles are taking place in real time. Your moves are on cooldown. So you'll do like a fire attack move and then you can't use that for five seconds. So maybe you'll do a different move and you're fighting Pokemon at the same time, like other Pokemon at the same time.

So it feels much more, I guess, action-y than you would find in like the turn-based, I pick confusion, they pick blah, blah, blah, and goes back and forth like that. So it's a pretty significant change. And this is the first time... This is, I guess, the first major mainline Pokemon game coming to Switch 2. It's also on Switch 1 for what it's worth, but that is, I think, a noteworthy moment.

My impression of the RCS was that it was like overall a much faster moving experience, right? Like it felt a lot snappier and more fluid, both in like... running around in the combat and stuff. Is this like still that? Does it still have the fast pace? Yeah, the movement, everything like that. If you played Arceus moving around the world, things like that are still very fast paced. I know Plant played a little bit of it.

And the... It's very fast-paced once you get past the first three hours, which is, to be fair, the rule of all Pokemon games. Yeah, I don't think... Arceus 2 or Arceus or whatever. Yeah, I don't think it's... It's probably closer to two hours. It might have felt like three hours. I was genuinely timing it because I was curious when they actually let the wheels off. I was starting to catch Pokemon and do things within like an hour and a half, which not great.

Don't get me wrong. TDP, TDC. Not great, but it does kind of come with the territory of this franchise. And but once I was, I felt like I had a lot of freedom. I could go literally anywhere in the city whenever I wanted to. Granted, there were Pokemon that was much higher level and I had no chance of catching them. But I did have the freedom to like go around and find.

locations and find items and all sorts of stuff much earlier than i think you do even in a normal pokemon game which tends to be very uh siloed off yeah yeah which i think was the big difference

There is, I think, a big element to this that I know Griffin probably would have spoken to if he was on this episode, and that's the divide between... the Legends series, which for lack of a better term, there are now two games in that series, and the like core mainline turn-based Pokemon games, the Pokemon Sword and Shield and the X and Y, et cetera, et cetera.

Right now, it feels like the overall amount of content in the Legends series is much, much less than you would see in a turn-based Pokemon. like core pokemon game uh just in terms of areas that you're finding the sheer number of pokemon uh like things that you're doing to like really mix it up i was actually kind of blown away because You know, I mentioned that the entire game takes place in the city. The city is like a very simple, like generously could look like a PS2 game.

PS3 maybe. It's really simple. I think that's honestly the part that hurts that intro a bit because, again, I did like Arceus. How do I say it? I think it's Arceus, but who fucking cares? It's a made-up Pokemon. Even though that game looks worse, it has the advantage of being in the past and being in a really open space. So your mind can fill that in, the visual fidelity. In the beginning of this game, you're walking through streets and it's like...

It's like that bit in The Simpsons where, like, well, have you ever noticed in cartoons when they run out of money, they start using the same hallway over and over and over and over again? And it's like... The street decorations to convey this city is lots of lit windows and trash cans. I mean, it's a Parisian city. You can tell that it's, like, inspired by Paris, but it is a lot of repetition of assets and things like that. In the same way that the...

miraculous mobile game is set in Paris. This too is set in Paris. Is it sort of like the Horizons?

of uh of pokemon is this like the are there people that prefer this style of game there are and those people are me you've met yeah okay uh i've played Probably every mainline turn-based Pokemon game ever. And right around sun and moon, maybe the one after that, I started losing steam. My level of interest was like kind of flagging just because there's only so many fucking times you can play that game over and over again. Now, again, speaking for Griffin.

He could play that game over and over again. Till the cows come home. And I'm sure he would tell us all about Pokemon breeding and how the DNA of this attack speed versus this Pokemon's attack speed is vastly different. And that is super engaging to him. I don't want to be dismissive of the people that...

Look, it's a much deeper game when you're playing the turn-based game. For me, to get me engaged in it, it needed to change dramatically. What's the feeling of being in the world, right? I think this is the thing that a large chunk of Pokemon players, myself included, wanted.

Really since the Nintendo 64, which was, oh, you have the ability to drop me into a 3D world. I want a Pokemon game where I get to walk around and see all the Pokemon out and about and like... interact with them and have the fights happen in the real world get me out of these menus uh and it does that for the most part

Yeah, there's a little menu stuff, but largely, yeah, you're summoning Pokemon without going into menus. You're switching between Pokemon. Like all that stuff is happening really at real time, which helps a lot. It's interesting, though, when you talk about the environments, right, like looking at the city environments, it reminds you of, and this is maybe too cynical of a take on Pokemon, but...

Part of that static nature of the franchise seems like so intentional because when they do evolve it beyond that. it's like they have to start comparing it to what else has been happening. Like if they stay in that rigid sort of like what Pokemon is, quote unquote, then there's a lot of ways in which they don't have to evolve. Because it's like, no, this is what Pokemon... Like it doesn't have...

have to compare it to modern games because this is a pokemon game so like it's a deliberate thing but when you start putting it in a 3d environment then i i think it's very natural to start comparing it to other 3d environments and saying like this really can't compare i mean it does not look

like a modern game. I think there are, so it has been in 3D for quite a while. This is not a new thing that it's a 3D game. It's worth knowing that the latest Pokemon games that have been in 3D, like the last several, have run like... fiery dog shit including arceus did not run great like it ran pretty poorly the fact that this is able to run relatively steady on a switch one and then at 60 fps on a switch two i think

It's possible that some of the design decisions that they made, in addition to what we were just talking about, was also, this is the only way we can get this fucking game running properly, because I don't think the engine is very good. So I think there is, they're making some decisions there as well.

I think that like fans of the game would agree with you hoops generally on the, wow, they're not putting a ton of money into this. And it is kind of repeating the same thing over and over again. But there's a reason that people keep coming back to these things, which is.

the pokemon are very cute and cool and interesting or maybe the story is like fresh what what about this one are you like it works here versus okay so this is the this is the thing that i can't necessarily explain to someone like justin who i can try but you're gonna have to put yourself in the shoes of someone that grew up with pokemon Which I know you didn't, correct? So try to pretend to be like my brother. Yeah, try to pretend to be your brother.

So, when you look at a Pokemon game, you're kind of taking it at face value, which is to say, like, taking it just as a gameplay experience. You have no... Well, first of all, I'm super horny. Super horny. Oh, yeah. Because I'm Griffin. Right, right, right. Sorry, go ahead.

and i'm super horny yeah and sorry i won't interrupt no it's fine uh so you're taking it at face value looking at gameplay mechanics things like that when i see tepig there is a surge of enthusiasm that runs through my veins that has been in there since the dawn of time. So it is tapping into that nostalgia in a way that...

Someone who didn't grow up with it would have no association with whatsoever. And that keeps happening over and over again because as you're walking through the city, oh, shit, there's fucking Haunter or there's a giant version of Haunter. And that's really exciting. I'm going to go catch it. So there is. Russ, my feelings are a little bit hurt, you think, just because I don't like Pokemon, I don't understand the idea of being a sucker. Like, I understand being a sucker.

Just say, I'm a sucker. Yeah, imagine being a sucker. Hoops, hoops, hoops. You gotta go back to Horny Griffin. I'll give you a copy of a stack. No, he's a sucker too. He's just not on the call. I can't bully him. I'll call him later and blame him if you want.

I agree that there is 100% a we are taking advantage of the nostalgia to sell toys or sell games or whatever it is, but it... is checking the box for me in ways that like no pokemon game of the last several years has done for me i guess but like why i'm just curious why like what is the i think the introduction of the new gameplay in a way it like the

fact that it's action-y, and then you throw in the fact that I'm directly controlling all these Pokemon that I have an emotional connection with, works for me in ways that it's not just. And it actually runs well this time. And it runs well. Like, RCS was a great proof of concept. Yeah, it's real. I mean, and... I know you liked RCS. Did you stick with RCS, Russ? Did you put a lot of time into it? No, because it ran like shit.

That was my big sticking point with it. It's also worth remembering, and we've said this before, but I will reiterate it. These games are made for kids. And when I play with my child, who's four... He fucking loves it. He loves watching. He loves asking me to catch certain Pokemon. He loves asking me what types of Pokemon they are. And I do think for that sort of youngster, I would say from like four to...

10 this is like fucking pure catnip and the simplicity of the world that we see is like oh this is basic ass shit is actually well for them it's legible it's like no it's a great point you know what russ it's a really good it's that's so good to remember and it really should be the the start in the beginning of these like i the the start and the the end of these discussions is like

They are contextualizing an experience that kids should be able to continue to have just because they are getting older and time is evolving. Like they should be able to have like a... their own version of it without adults being like time to add guns. Yeah. Or, or even time to add like the complexity of like, Oh, breeding and SP rates and whatever the fuck else that get added in the main line. The main line is so heavy with that stuff now. And this,

This is really a, how do you raise the friendship of a Pokemon in this game? You take them to a cafe and you drink tea with them. That's how you do it. Just so you know, Hoops, next week we will be playing, I want to make sure I get the title right.

Digimon Story Time Stranger. So I figure you probably want to make like 50, 60 hours for that. Griffin has not started playing this actually, honestly. I will be crushed. I really want to know what he thinks about the Digimon game. Because somebody is coming just a little bit for that Pokemon lunch. They're ready to try it out. Just to put a bow on this, I think for people that...

really liked Arceus, they'll probably walk away really happy here. I think for people that are lapsed Pokemon fans, they might find something interesting here. You should watch some gameplay and see if it would be compelling to you. Is this a game I'm going to spend 60 fucking hours on? No. Absolutely not. Would I be playing more of it if my son weren't super invested in it? Probably not.

I think it's interesting. I like the way this is going. I would love to see this scaled out into a more full-featured Pokemon game, but...

Right now, it feels like they are moving in the right direction, but still not quite there yet. But still, I've been enjoying it. I'll also say the simplicity of the design does help to make the action more legible, because there's a lot going on once you get several... pokemon cooking here i'm watching in like gameplay footage yeah it's easy to kind of understand you know types and the attacks you have available to you there's really the hud is actually pretty clean all things considered hey

Should we take a quick break and then come back and talk about a lighthouse that came to life? A life house. That's nice. Keeper. is the new game from Double Fine. It is directed by Lee Petty, who's done art on many, many Double Fine games, but he was the lead on stacking. Headlander? Headlander. And Rad.

which I did not play rad, but I don't know why I didn't play rad. It looks like it was a roguelike where like a post-apocalyptic roguelike with kids in it. I didn't play rad. So I don't know what the deal was with rad, but it has been, I guess. It's six years since Rad.

Uh, and this is the next game that like Lee Petty was the sort of like lead on, which I don't, I know we don't mention on a lot of games. I only kind of mentioned because I feel like Tim Schafer and double fine are sort of some of the very last, like. studios that can still hang a name to a game and I feel like Double Fine is kind of able to do that with Lee Petty just because they've been able to

They have done it repeatedly. It's also interesting because this came up a little bit. If you watch Double Fine, the documentary, what was it called? The Double Fine Journey, whatever that was on YouTube. This came up because they ended up at one point. pulling team members from this game into the Psychonauts development to make sure that it actually came out. So this game was massively delayed because...

of the scale of the Psychonauts project. Also tied to the Double Fine documentary, the Double Fine documentarian who then turns into a game designer midway through the documentary worked on this game too, I believe.

So it is a game where you are a lighthouse that is animated through some sort of magic that is not really explained to you. But you are clearly like sentient. There is a relationship. You are personifying this lighthouse in a sense, right? There are legs. There's the light, which is sort of a face and an all-purpose eye.

There's not a ton of emotion that is being communicated by that light, but there is a lot through the physicality of this lighthouse, which is not really designed to be ambulating around the environment. So whenever you see... the lighthouse moving, like whenever you're controlling it, it always feels like you're just on the edge of like toppling over. It's that, that kind of movement walking around.

yeah exactly that's much more prominent like early on so it's not really about like control fidelity but it isn't trying to like intentionally sort of like make it unpleasant to control it's just uh not a mechanically like super dense game the main thing that you're doing as you sort of like make your way through the environment and you are led by uh

I don't know. There's not really an overall sort of like thing that seems to be pulling you through. It's a journey but you're not really sure like sort of where you're headed. It's a very sort of like shaggy dog sort of thing. It's a walking simulator in like the truest sense of the word. Not as negative. Like if we think of that as a genre, it is moving forward from point A to point B with just the lightest amount of puzzles between point A and point B.

I would say, I mean, God, I hate using that term, honestly, because I do feel like it is so dismissive. And I actually don't think it is, for me, that's a much more narrative thing. A walking simulator. I think there's a lot of story that's tied to that. And this is super not that. In fact, I would say that like any attempts to sort of like project narrative onto it, it is working pretty hard to.

It wants feelings, not stories. Yeah, for sure. And the way that you interact with the world as the lighthouse is really mainly shining.

a light like you're projecting your light and you can intensify it and focus on something but that is the main thing you're doing in the environment now you can like you know classic video game stuff like you kill bad plants that have grown over things with your sunlight you know that kind of deal but you also have this bird that flies around with you and hangs out on the lighthouse and will like help you with like switches and will follow your instructions

like do some mild interactions and do some like puzzle solving that way so like there are it is not just a like

floating through an amorphous environment, like pinging off. There's actual puzzles. You're flipping switches and you're doing levers and stuff. When I say walking simulator, I mean, I wish there was a... better term for this but it's a showcase for something other than the gameplay so most walking simulators or whatever we want to call these yeah it's it's typically a showcase for narrative

Here, this is a showcase for art. It is like a beautiful picture book or art book, coffee table book that you would keep on your table. parallel um sort of the sea um that that sort of thing um i think sort of the sea is a lot more fluid than this but like that fluidity is part of what they want you to experience in the aesthetics and this is very much about like letting you make your way through a really outrageously generously gorgeous world and they do a few things to emphasize that one is

Yet it's just changing from moment to moment. The sheer variety of things that you will see in this game.

is incredible i cannot imagine how much time they spent just making these spaces i never stop in games i don't like i don't stop in games to look but like i actually a couple times like went back like did i just hold on i gotta go look at that again because there's like background and foreground like you couldn't take it all in as design like you have like vistas we're talking about vistas but like the depth of things and it's not just that it's like

the density and also there, there are very few pinnings to our world in the aesthetics of this world. Right. So it's not like you're seeing, it's not like there's trees, but they're pink. It's like. You will walk through what appears to be a... you know, a hundred yard field of taffy that like will pull and stretch with you. And like the world is so unlike what you have seen. You can't just like parse it as you're going through. You really have to like stop and look.

What's the Lovecraft phrase? It's like non-Euclidean architecture or something. It looks like of a different... Like a dreamscape. Yes, but like... Very tangible. It's so alien and foreign. Like it reminds kind of like if you watch Scavenger's Rain, like the way the biology of that show is like so foreign to ours, it was almost kind of hard to grok. This is like that. Like you are, it is.

so much about the aesthetics of what you are seeing like the beauty and the way it all interacts together they do two other things to emphasize again this is a game about looking One, the camera is more like a classic Resident Evil type of thing where it is positioning itself.

It's really controlled visuals of they want you to see the world in this way. They also, in theory, need to do it because the way you control your character, you're controlling the light on the lighthouse, which is the second part of you want to gain.

make a game about looking and the idea of like spotlighting wherever you're looking making a game about a lighthouse is the way that you do that so you are quite literally focusing uh the lighthouse your character on the objects around you and some of that is to solve puzzles a lot of that is just to see the world um

Justin, you're a good chunk into it, correct? Yeah. So what you've described so far is like something that... Doesn't that sounds like it doesn't necessarily evolve from a gameplay standpoint, obviously evolves from a visual standpoint. Is that the case or do they throw in curveballs as you're progressing through it? No, there's definitely curveballs. I just did a pretty.

i mean pretty chunky platforming oh wow okay like it it you and i i don't know how it evolves beyond that like it is definitely it it is one of those games where a closer to say like The mechanics are pretty light, but once you get one, it moves, it dispenses with it, moves on and teaches you everything. Like it's, it's very fat and very fluid in that sense. It, it, it evolves more too, but to like, to go into.

any greater detail would be to spoil kind of the fun because the whole magic is the like, Oh, this is the thing that is happening for these five to 15 minutes. But I will say like it, it evolves a good deal. past what it starts as it's always the same it's always about moving forward it's all about being in these worlds but the way that you do that changes I will say also that this is, for me, I think the thing that is most notable about...

And this is, you know, it's weird thinking about this as a Double Fine game, because for me, Double Fine has always been so present throughout my entire career in game journalism. But it's been four years since the last...

released from Double Fine. It's been four years since Psychonauts 2. But I was thinking about this is the first game from them that I can remember that is not in some way humorous like it's not in some way even if it's not a direct like um uh joke or a joke filled game there's like an irony or a cool or like a silly or like

You're looking for the wink in almost everything. And I feel like a part of that is like the DNA of Tim Schafer bringing over from like LucasArts and, you know, his comedy background there.

uh i feel like that was a huge part of the double fine dna and i'm not complaining about it but it is really like there is a strength of the convictions that this game has that it is not trying to be funny at all and it's not trying to be cute or even winky it's like it's really earnestly expecting you to engage with it in a really direct way without

trying to be cute about what it's doing or ironic about it, which I think is really, really, really laudable for the studio. That is such a great point. And also I'm realizing this is their WALL-E, or at least the first 30 minutes of WALL-E. We're making these silly, light, fun things. And now here's this. We're all getting older. We're all thinking about death. I mean, you could call it their toy story for another thing that's not.

Really, it's super funny. Whatever, man. Forky. I love that movie so much. It's a great movie, but you're right. But even that is a comedy, right? This is like, this really earnestly, it is not using, I think sometimes comedy, you know, games can lean on that and it's like, well, you can't take anything we're doing too seriously because it's a joke game. It's a goof. It's a goof. And this is really not that. It feels like... I mean, I don't want to overstate it, but like...

I can't think of a lot of American-made games that have gotten this close to a Miyazaki sort of vibe. But that's where it's sitting for me. Or, what's his name? The French Otherworld. Oh my gosh. Borat? He's not French, Chris. Yeah, no, he's not French. Who made that game? Where did you think Borat is French? Is it because Sacha Baron Cohen? It sounds like a French guy. He does do French accents in a lot of movies, but no, he's not French.

It's Borat. It's going to come to me. Great success. It doesn't even sound fresh. This is very exciting. I spent so much time in the Pokemon Legends world that I didn't get to play this game this week, but I actually really am jazzed about it in hearing about it now. I will say this. It is really a game that, like, it doesn't play great on the, we have heard anecdotally and personally, it is not great on the handhelds, but I would really say, like,

Don't play it on my hand. You want it on a big screen. Put it on the big screen. Plug it in and then do the whole thing. Turn the lights down low. Light a candle, you know, get some massage oil and just really enjoy it. You know what I mean? Get in there and make time for it. Your window for the French person has lost. It's gone. No, it's Eric Chahi. It can't come back. Eric Chahi.

Damn, that's good. But my point about how it being an American, the closest American has gotten, like, still stands then. Because Eric Chahi's French. Yeah, that's, I was making a comparison to Anonymous. I was helping. I was building. Okay. Keeper is, uh, it's really, really, it's really good. And it's, and it is, if I, you know, you mentioned it and I'm, I'll, I'll, cause you were talking about people getting older or whatever. I will say this is.

a level of craft with game design. And maybe I'm probably too quick to attribute that to Double Fine because of the documentaries, in part because I've seen... You know, those so richly detail the amount of care and love and work that goes into every element of their game is because they're documenting it, right? So I have more of a sense of it maybe with the studio. But I will say...

There is a craft to making you feel things with game design that is not numbers-based, that is not... getting better damage that is not getting a better weapon that is not just progressing right it is that like how do you make a game that rewards play and just like feels good to experiment with and like that is what is here like that is what this game has to offer if you can slow down to engage with it it is not a like

addictive experience it is a like something you can really like enjoy and rewards i you know that that enjoyment and rewards that with I think more depth and more understanding. And if you look for it, a lot more concrete story. beneath the surface if you want to go searching for it. There's also a lot in like achievement text and things like that where they're like fleshing out backstory and things like that if you're interested. I love that. Yeah, it's cool. Very cool.

Cool. We have some reader mail to go through if you guys are interested. Yeah. This one comes from Lily J. I am a second year college student studying music composition and my professor was one of the people hired to write the music for the radio stations in the outer worlds too, which is something Justin, you remember you talked about last week? Yeah.

He told me about the process behind it, and they basically set... had a set of composers hired by composer hired by the studio and he was basically told you have two weeks to make 80 songs which they were cut down to like eight to ten that actually made it in the game having talked to him as well as the composer of avowed I have learned...

Just how much of a, quote, clusterfuck, their words, it is to write music for a huge game like this, and it's something that is rarely talked about. Often composers have very little say into how their music is used and are directed very vaguely with extremely limited time to finish their work. I thought you might...

find this interesting given the conversation about radio music in the last episode, specifically where Justin was wishing that they had more music. I guess they did make more music. Also, in case you're wondering, he did specifically... did the music for the math people where all the songs are about math. I mean, those are all great. Great songs. They're great. It's like, and if I could clarify that complaint, it is not so much that...

I wanted more of it. It's that they are good enough that you notice them. And once you notice them. you notice them when they loop after 30 minutes that because they are good because they get in your head and you do stop and take notice. And it's not like welcome to the jungle where like I can listen to the welcome to the jungle a hundred times and I'm not going to notice welcome to the jungle is on. Yeah.

uh good very interesting yeah very interesting uh this letter comes from chloe r hi besties big fan of the show and post games of course uh i'm wondering if you can speak a bit about how you choose the games to feature in each episode I know you are enjoying some Hades 2, my game of the year for sure, as well as some other big releases like...

What was that? Kingdom Come Deliverance 2? We'll talk about it. So I'm curious, what makes you pass on a particular game? Is it purely a time-constrained issue, or is there more strategy involved behind the scenes? Okay. I want to go deep on the Hades 2, because...

We get a lot of comments and emails asking us why we have not spent a full additional episode on Hades 2. So I have gone through several periods of... loving hades 2 since it hit 1.0 and i am currently in yet another one the challenge that i have and justin as the person who spent more time playing hades games than anyone else the challenge that i have i don't know

how to speak about Hades 2 in an interesting way beyond, holy shit, this game is amazing. And we could talk about the gameplay mechanics a little bit, but like, I don't. Yeah, dude. Hades 2 is kind of a specific example, but it has evolved a lot over time. I will say that it has evolved over years.

And speaking to it, like, there is an expectation that we are able to speak about games authoritatively. And even as somebody who has followed Hades 2 religiously, it is really hard for me to speak to the chronology of this is how it is different now.

from how it was at the beginning. So like trying to speak to people, no matter where they got on or off, like trying to be something that is useful to people without knowing how much of it they played or their awareness is really tough because it's such a long story.

The problem I have is I really enjoy Hades 2 whenever I'm playing it, right? I enjoy Hades 1 more. I enjoy the combat more. I enjoy the story certainly more. That's a really bad, boring take that I don't want to go too much further into because it's like, man, I sure do love this 9 out of 10, but it's not a 10 out of 10 that the... other one was and I feel like it's for me it's really hard to talk about Hades 2 without talking about Hades 1

And if I just talk about it on its own, it's just kind of repeating a lot of things that I feel like I've said about these games a million times. It's a great game, but there's weirdly little that I feel like a pressure to say about it. I will say this, and maybe we, I don't know, as somebody who has returned to it several times, I think that it is overburdened by systems and currencies.

in a way that betrays how long it was in development for. I think that if you try to get on at this point, there is so much cruft in there.

that is like just kind of very plainly giving reasons for you to make multiple runs at it that is like i don't feel like a lot of it feels super rewarding to me And again, I don't know that that's that interesting because the other half of that conversation is I definitely, definitely, definitely played too much of this game before there was enough to really engage with because I was excited for it.

And I don't feel like I'm a bad guy for that, but it is my experience. So I think I played about five hours in early access, give or take. And which is to say not very much. I wouldn't say like a ton enough to like know what was going on in the game. And I think the game.

If you started at 1.0, that is the best possible experience you could have had playing the game before 1.0 and then leaving it for a year and then coming back to it is not as good of an experience because all of the mechanics and currencies that Justin is talking about, I do think.

they do a pretty good job of like easing you into that stuff such that it is cogent i also agree you're right some of it just feels like well you got to make another run to get this currency to get the thing to get the thing like that is fair right around the time that hades went to 1.0 Deep Rock Galactic Survivor went to 1.0 and something that was really smart that they did is I saw that it went to 1.0 and when I booted it up there was a very clear delineation between your pre 1.0 save

and starting a new save they were like very much like 1.0 start a new game you're gonna want to do that and here's why we've like we have made it So that like, you don't want to worry about any of that other shit. Like we've reset all of that economy stuff. So it wouldn't make sense for you to like, get back into that. Say, besides you started playing this game a year and a half ago. You don't remember any of this shit and it's all different anyway. So you should restart.

it Hades did not Hades 2 did not encourage that And it would terrify me to do that because I don't remember how boring this stuff is. I don't remember how much I have and have it done. I don't remember what I will and will not remember. I have no idea. I don't know if I want to go do that again, but it really did not incentivize that.

I did. Whatever, it was only five hours, but I did start totally from scratch, and I don't regret it one bit for what it's worth. But again, you played a lot more than I did. 50 hours. But I spent 200 in Hades 1, so I don't know. Do you mind if I went back to the...

original question yeah please what i would say here is when you're listening to the show and first this is a great question and i appreciate how it was worded very kindly um When we don't talk about a game, it doesn't inherently mean we don't like it. At the end of the day, when we're making the show, a big part of the games we choose is, are we going to have good conversations about them? Are these going to be things that we think you're going to enjoy listening to?

And sometimes there are good games that it's like, I don't know. I'm going to end up telling you that Pong is great and then we're done and we need to fill the next 55 minutes. And I think that is a... a bit of a challenge here. And I think also we tend to favor things that are interesting and surprising. To us. To us, yeah. The writer of this letter mentioned Kingdom Comes Over Ends 2, which is a game that all of us tried and all of us found really not fun.

Not all of us? What are you talking about? And I noticed, Question Writer, that you referred to it as KCD2, so I'm assuming you've played quite a bit. Because I don't have an acronym for it, and you do.

I liked it quite a bit. I'll probably talk about it more at the end of the year. If you were writing me an email about it, would you call it Kingdom Come Deliverance 2? Or would you type KD? Oh, I caught Cocta 2. cock to two okay got it perfect i'm just saying there is there is also this question of like there are games that are uh the point with that one specifically i wanted to make is that there are games that are very big that realistically

we have one episode per week. And if it takes a vast amount of time to really get the scope of a game, it could be tough to do an episode about it to get all of us like, it has to really get us. There is one person on this podcast that is capable of doing a, it gets good after 15 hours game. And that person is Griffin. He's not here to defend himself, but he's the only person that I think will.

have any patience to play uh russ you will take you will you like to get kicked around a little bit it depends on the genre like come on i'll do this if you call it yakuza i'll be like yeah yeah no you don't understand hours it's pretty cool mine thing's clicking if it's clicking or like numerical iteration like i've got we've all got our our weak spots yeah

So yeah, there's a lot of layers to it. Interesting conversation, time constraint issue. Did we get code early so we can like kind of prepare a little bit? There's just a lot of levels. Part of it is also like once we see a conversation.

has really taken place outside of the show. And it's like, man, a lot of people are talking about this. A lot of times by the time that has trickled down to us, it's like, well, okay, fine. But like, who gives a shit what we have to say at this point? You know, like, I think the people listening give a shit. No, no, no. But like you, but.

the zeitgeist i'm saying like we can't it's if it doesn't line up with the zeitgeist it's not always intentional it's just like you know there's a big conversation about this happening but like we're not intentionally avoiding that conversation that's it's also like if we're like you know the conversation

has happened for Hades and it's like, okay, and now we're going to come in and tell you like, yeah, we generally like it. We don't want to yuck any yums. Like, that's not going to be a great bow to the conversation. Yeah. What else we got?

Last question. This comes from Leo. I'm surprised that Justin King of FMV has not talked about Road to Empress yet. Okay. Can we talk about this for a second? Sure. Can I just like, I, yes. yes i like i really like fmv games and yes when plant pointed this out to me i did say like yes i'll go get it the thing is

What you have to understand is, the FMV thing is, you still have to play them with your own human time and hands. And like... the people that are using fmv a lot of them are not doing it for artistic reasons it's because they they don't want to pay for the full version of blender you know what i'm saying like i don't i'm not saying that that's the deal with this one but like i can't keep up with

every, like, you know, Eastern block developer that gets his hand on a Handycam and wants to make a game. This one does look good, though. I will say. This one looks good, but it is like... It's a rough tag out there. It is a rough tag on Steam, the FNV tag. It's a rough tag. I get it, man. When I was growing up, somebody, like, my... My aunt decided that my mom really liked pineapples. Apparently my mom must have mentioned this offhand. My aunt proceeded to tell all my mom's friends.

all of my other, you know, relatives, cousins, whoever. And then every holiday and every anything, we would just get little pineapple trinkets until I was like 10 when she cleared the house out of this. And I swear to God, like literally a month later. My aunt was like, Kathy, you love lighthouses, don't you? Well, I've got you a new lighthouse. And I let mom know that you love lighthouses. I've got a game that's absolutely going to freak your beat. It's called Keeper.

Yeah, imagine! You're a lighthouse, but you're walking around! The whole house just full of lighthouse junk, and then it gets tossed out. Anyway, just to say, I know what you mean. You become that person, and suddenly people are like... I just love you. You gotta see this happen to me. And it is also, it does get a little bit old. I've been doing besties for, you know.

what is it, 13 years at this point? And it does get a little bit old and be like, hey guys, look at this fucking piece of detritus I found. Does anybody else care? No? Okay, well, that's my 30 seconds. Like, you get the script, right? Hey, here, wait, I can do one. Hold on, what's the name of this?

game road to empress guys i want to tell you real quick about road to empress it's an fmv game that i've been checking out on steam and i know that a lot of times these get a rep for like not being that great but like if you're into those if you're into fmv games

I can see that the other two are glazing over. So let me just say that like, if you're into those and you like that kind of thing, then this is a really good one. But like, obviously if you don't like these kinds of games and you're not going to like it and you shouldn't waste your time, but thank you. Like, check it out.

Who needs AI? You can bash these things out whenever you want. Yeah, I've AI'd myself. I've made myself redundant with my own cynicism. Should we talk about what else we've been playing? Sure.

Okay, good, because I want to tell you all about a terrible title, but an interesting game. Onirism, which I just don't like the title. It is French. I don't know how to guess to spell that. O-N-I-R-I-S-M. Okay. And if you have been missing kind of a Nintendo 64 platformer...

Or like a Ratchet and Clank or a Jet Force Gemini, somewhere around that space, right? Something where you're like, oh, this is a rare game. You hop around, you shoot things, but all your characters are like... super soakers or you know silly fun guns you're a little girl in a fantasy dreamland a little bit of kind of like a little nemo uh sort of aesthetic too it is

so big and so dense there is so much here they've been updating this game in early access forever so even the game is like i think 15 bucks there's uh like a playground mode there's an arcade mode where you can do a whole bunch of like high school runs of just like shooting enemies there's a humongous story mode where you are going through all these different again nintendo 64-esque levels but they look like they were made in non-neural engine 4 or whatever

It is a delight. And if you have a little kid that you are looking for that kind of classic, easy onboarding point, it is great. And it's the biggest butt on the planet. Please don't cut that. Actually, I have the biggest butt. Okay, there we go, baby. We got it. And I want to say thank you to Dr. Gonzalez. He put it in for me and he did such an amazing job. I wanted to have the biggest butt on the planet and now I have it. Thank you, Doc. Oh my gosh, that cake. This is...

Steam needs to rethink what early access is and are there any way to monitor what a 1.0 is. This is maybe the worst 1.0 I've ever played. of a video game. You open the menu and the UI is disastrous. It took me a beat to figure out how to start the game by establishing what difficulty I was playing on and which mode I was playing on.

to then begin the game you get into the game and like some of the cut scenes don't work it's really really really rough which is brutal for a game that is meant for kids because In its current state, I would be hesitant to hand it to my son because I think he would get frustrated the second something breaks. And what's so weird about it is there is all of this extra stuff. And they didn't focus on the basics. And again, in that first like 15 minute loop. And it feels...

I feel like we're seeing more and more of this with game development now that it's easier to make and you can buy assets and all this stuff. Like, you get into the space of, oh, our hardcore fans are already past. that 15 minute loop in early access and they just want more and they're giving us ideas they want new vehicles they want new weapons they want new enemies and we're just going to like churn and churn and churn and make more and more and more

But not considering the fact that like, hey, people are going to play this for the first time now. And having all that stuff doesn't really matter if nobody gets past the first 30 minutes. That, again, and then here's the contradiction. I bought it. I was excited, instantly extremely frustrated, so ready to cancel it, played through an hour.

And then I was like hooked. I was in. I like had been onboarded. I knew what all of its like annoying quirks were. And then I was having a great fun in a Nintendo 64 style game that I had been craving. But woof. I just wish that more of these games, if they're going to say it's a 1.0 launch. actually make it feel like a legit video game. Like these menus feel worse than the games that this is taking inspiration from. And that's just like totally not acceptable.

Well, I'm glad you got it the shine it deserved. Yeah. I wanted to call out a stand-up routine special that is on YouTube. It's an hour-long special by Robbie Hoffman called I'm Nervous. It's on YouTube. She is a former Hasidic Jew who is now definitely not a Hasidic Jew and does a very, very, it was just like one of the better routines I've seen. If you watch the show Hacks.

Robbie Hoffman plays the receptionist in the most recent season of Hacks. So that's where she's from, but tremendously good on YouTube. We can drop it in the newsletter if you want to watch it. Justin, anything? Yeah, you know, I like to watch scary movies this time of year. One of my favorites is the VHS series because I like horror anthologies because they keep you from getting too narratively invested and you don't have to get too bummed out by them. You can just kind of enjoy the fun of it.

And I, I feel like the really interesting is like practices too. And I think that, uh, uh, uh, like experiments, I guess you could say, and VHS Halloween has a lot of them that are really fun. Um, it's on shutter. uh and this is the eighth vhs movie i don't actually know anything about this franchise really uh so it is a it's kind of an offshoot of the found footage thing that paranormal activity ushered in

But it is like, it kind of takes that concept and like meditates on it for like a series of anthology films. So like each one, there's usually like four to five short films. This one has a wide variety. There's like four or five different stories. Some are a lot more like... slasher kind of like campy horror. Some are downright like silly. There's one called Fun Size about a monster that turns people into candy that's truly ghoulish. Is it like Tales from the Crypt?

Yeah, sort of. And there's a framing device in this one. There's always a framing device in the VHS movies that tie all the stories together. In this one, it is... testing a new diet soda called diet phantasma that has horrifying effects i love it on everyone that tries it but these these are always really fun um if you like horror at all i'd say they're always really worth watching and this is like a really

fun one there's several really good uh stories i want to tell you about any of them because like if you want to watch it you can but like it's it's it's really it's a really good one if you go back and watch these on shutter because there are a bunch of them yeah they're a showcase for both like Indie talent that doesn't make a lot of movies or makes really indie stuff and cannot usually get funding from big studios.

Or young talent that eventually is going to become famous after making this stuff. Like, it is a way for them, I think, to try out a bunch of filmmakers with horror shorts. Alex Ross Perry, who made Listen Up Philip and Her Smell and Queen of Earth in this year's Pavements. And Christopher Robin. Did he make Christopher Robin? Yeah. Really?

yeah fun fact that's great wow um that rules uh but yeah the great stuff great year for alex ross perry two documentaries and a horror short damn it's good it's a really good vhs

Cool. I think we did it. Griffin will probably be back next week. In the meantime, please head on over to the Patreon. We have a new episode of Resties that is live presently. We have a new Bracket Battles episode that's going up on Tuesday. uh which is a fun one to record uh wanted to thank a few people over at the patreon patreon.com slash the besties we have tanner we have bader how do you pronounce that b-a-d-r bader

Bader. Bader H. We have Will H. And we have... God, why did I put this? Captain BJ. Captain BJ. Welcome aboard. Thank you for... He used to be an admiral. That's the sad thing. Yeah, yeah. BJ Blaskowitz. Yeah. Thank you. I think it's blowjob, Chris. Oh, sorry. Blowjob Blasquids. Thank you for being... Jumpman is the original name of Mario. And the original name of BJ Blaskowitz is Blowjob Blaskowitz. People don't know this. Jumpman. John 314. That's the Spartan right is John 314.

Justin, what are we doing next week? Next week, we are going to be talking about... We got kind of a catch-up episode. We got several games to talk about, so we will talk about a few different ones. What's the name of the Seance one that you sent? That looks good. Seance at Blake Manor?

I think that's what it's called. That sounds very good. And I'm going to go ahead and play Road to Empress because I do like Evan V. Yeah, there it is. Over and over and over again. And I'm going to make you listen to it. I love it. Kept you waiting, Empress. That's going to do it for us for this week on Besties. Be sure to join us again next time for the Besties, because shouldn't the world's best friends make the world's best games? Yes, Steve.