Episode 42: UFOs & A New Reality with Kelly Chase and Jay Christopher King

series and I really enjoyed it. It was very refreshing to me because you guys actually took an entirely new, honest approach to this phenomenon, kind of like I expected you would, you know, I find it very refreshing that it's not just another one of these UFO docs that rehashes versions of what we've already heard and what we already know, but rather I found it to be a very honest, hard look at the UFO phenomenon and the different anomalies and the different ways we probably should be

looking at this topic. You can tell you guys put a lot of work into this and a lot of thought about how to craft that. What was that like?

over and over again. We wanted to do what we could to move the conversation forward, and to do so in a way that experiencers and other people in the community you've been studying this stuff for a long time, felt sort of seen and represented, and it wasn't just kind of the same old news clippings that we've been rehashing for the past, you know, several years.

the aliens, and here's the ships, and that's it. If we suddenly became apparent to one hundred percent of the population that everyone understands that the UFO phenomenon is now indeed real, then all of our trusted legacy institutions that we've come to rely on to understand our world for years and years and years, the government, media, academia, all of these suddenly were completely wrong and you're faced with questioning everything they told us.

in our car because our mechanic does. We don't have to know how to fix a broken arm because our doctor does, right, and we trust each other. But then what happens when that trust starts to break down? And what we see in this subject is that there's such a range of things that you can really zero in on that are of utmost importance to us, not just

as individuals, but as a culture, as a society. There are so many people that want to focus and very understandable on the cover up, the giant cover up that has existed in various world governments for seventy years, eighty years, you know, possibly a lot longer than that, in various societies. And at the same time, we have to recognize that the national security state is not about transparency and it never has been right. And so how do we look at that? Is there a way to look at this

phenomenon more directly with fresh eyes? Can we study this ourselves, Like, how do we approach this without looking at the Rubik's cube, without looking at like the crazy rat mas the four D chess game that is the national security state? Is

there a way around that? Is there a way to really kind of embrace this stuff on our own and really like look at each other, compare notes with each other, and like make progress because it seems to me and I know, you know, I don't want to speak for Kelly, but we have to take an all roads approach to these issues for sure.

the public at large to not believe this. If you stigmatize this subject and make people afraid to talk openly about it, which made this cover up possible, it's not really a secret as much as it's a conditioning to just ignore it all together.

really exactly exactly, and we're all about that. The problem becomes that at a certain point we let the disclosure narrative kind of subsume the conversation about ufology and what this thing actually is and most of the information that we're getting about it, and that the information that people tend to take the most seriously is that information that's coming to us through the military intelligence apparatus, which are the same people who've been lying to us from the beginning.

And if they've changed their minds and now they suddenly want to start telling us more about it, it's probably not because they're having a crisis of conscience, and probably because it serves some other function or answers some other risk that's emerged.

feeding him disinformation the entire time. This is really disturbing. Yeah, absolutely.

a good citizen. He saw weird stuff in the sky around the air Force base and he chose to report it, and it got him into giant amounts of trouble because all of a sudden there were these disinformation agents like Richard Dody, who Greg believed to be like other factions

through the NSA, that were actually actively disinforming him. They handed him in a computer and he built an antenna, and they started feeding him these wild messages that seemed to be from off world intelligences and here trade themselves as such.

We didn't mention him, and I think part of the reason we decided to do that was I think sometimes it's really easy for us to have boogeyman, you know, and to take all of these kind of nefarious activities and to assign them to one individual and say, oh, he's bad. And what we really wanted to emphasize was not like, here's Richard Doughty and he did some bad things, but rather, this is how the system works. The system works to both produce and encourage doties.

UFOs and a new reality. Kelly I found it very interesting in the piece when you pointed out that arrow spent I think it was one hundred thousand investigating the topic of UFOs, but they spent over a million dollars to hire a PR agency to control the messaging. This is very telling, Yes.

know what you're going to do with that. But they spent one point nine million dollars on contracting with an organization that does like perception management for.

guys who give their full testimony to Arrow. And then Ero comes out with a statement saying there's nothing at all to indicate anything of an et nature that must hurt these guys. And you know, they could have come on out and said it's not definitive, we are not one hundred percent sure what's happening. That's fine. I don't know what's happening. I don't think you guys know. I don't know anybody that knows what's happening. But to flat out say nothing was offensive to me, not just that.

the whole series. I went down to well an undisclosed location with Jordan Flowers or one of our other EPs, and we shot with Mario woods, like an incredible UFO witness, very pertinent to so many things, including the recent quote unquote Jersey drones, this whole kind of flap that's been happening recently over military installations and other places like pickets in the arsenal agus and others. And Mario was faced

with this back in nineteen seventy seven. He was guarding a nuclear launch facility in South Dakota and he saw a giant fireboot ball that he describes as the size of a Walmart building, which is quite evocative and maybe tells you where he lives in the world, not in the middle of New York City like some of us. And he saw beings there and like they were right over a launch facility, I mean right over where these

missiles come out of the doors. And he disappeared. They couldn't find him for hours, and his jeep showed up in the middle of the mud and snow with no tire tracks around it, miles from where they disappeared. It's an extraordinary case. You know, this is a guy who's very plugged in with people like Robert Hastings and Robert Solace.

They're all very conversant. They talk to each other. You know, Robert Hastings of course, who wrote the seminal text UFOs and Nukes, and Mario he showed me while I was there, he showed me and Jordan the correspondence between him and Arrow and it went back and forth, and Arrow was blowing so much smoke to Mario about like, you know, what it would do and how they needed his testimony and what they would do with it and this, that

and the other thing. And we were able to show one of those docs on the show, and that was an exclusive for us that I really appreciate Mario giving to us. But like you know, these are liars. They're not just liars to the public in general. And they're not just doing this for perception management. I mean these are institutional level liars. That's what they do there. And this whole like facade where it's like, oh, Kirkpatrick, he's you know, he moved on to Oak Ridge, and so

we've got another guy. And then you have these ex military, these ex intelligence X intelligence, as if that's even a thing. They sit there and they say, oh, well there's a new guy. Let's give them another year and let's see what happens. And it's like, how long are we going to hit How long are we going to hit fresh and repeat on this? How long are we going to be lying to and allow these people to say, like, let's give him more time, Let's give him more time. We know what they're doing and it's.

I'm sure that we feed this beast specifically on this topic, and we can see how easily people can be manipulated by being fed disinformation that has played out before all of us in the last five years. So ultimately, I think this is headed in the wrong direction. It's going to get a lot worse, not better, with the proliferation of deep fakes and AI. What do you guys think?

whole other level. And I don't think that there's nearly enough conversation going on in our communities about how do we kind of have hygiene in both like the personal and the community level where we're kind of stepping back and trying to keep ourselves from getting to you know,

as we're bringing all of this stuff in. You see, like anytime there's new piece of information or like a new person who claims to be a whistleblower, or you know, a new something that's released, everyone descends like filters.

and everything. You know, in fairness, this does happen not just in our community, Like even I've heard how they talk about this in the sports world, how they're all fighting to be the first to release that this guy's going to get signed by this company for this night, and they're all fighting to be that one because you've got to follow this guy who's going to have the information first. And it's great that this information is being shared by a lot of people and not just coming

from the top. But on the other hand, it's getting really kind of messy now, and it's just going to get worse in my view. You know, another interesting point that someone made on your doc that some of the secrecy is unintentional, which is something that I have never thought about. I thought that was novel. People naturally don't like talking about things that we don't understand, and we typically don't like sharing those things with others. Now, I

personally think the exact opposite of that. There's no point in talking about what we know, anything that's been discovered or known to me. It's like, well, it's already out there. Whatever I want to talk about the unknown.

of high strangeness. Right, we need to talk about it because we need a fuller picture. People will sit there and they'll be like, ah, I don't know, like I feel like these two things are connected. This thing happened, and then two weeks later, this other thing happened. I can't draw a rational connection, So how can I tell

somebody else? It'll just make it sound more crazy. And so people self edit and sometimes like your brain even you know, depending on the level of cortisol and your brain and or cortisol pumping through your body and other things like this, like people well or yes, it could be that. But like regardless of whether somebody sober, tired, or in some other their state, the brain has a magical ability to essentially take out the trash when we

find ourselves in a situation that's incredibly stressful. This happens in car accidents, this happens when people fall off ladders. This happened. Trauma and people have heart attacks, any kind of trauma. And for the brain to see something that's so against a conception of reality, it seems to have a similar response in certain situations with high strangeness. And so people will have this kind of patchy memory of

this stuff as well. And so then there's the aspect of like it's half there and it's half not there,

Like I shouldn't mention that either. But you know, it's important to remember that, like for years people would see grays, people would ask like what kind of clothes they were wearing, and people would be embarrassed to say, like, well, it didn't look like they were wearing clothes, And so for years in the literature that was something that was less reported on because it just seems so wild that like there would be some being and then that it wouldn't be wearing clothes.

We are back on Beyond Contact. We're speaking with Jay King and Kelly Chase. We were talking about how these strange occurrences happen to people, and this was an interesting thing that I thought came through your series for me was that in general, we don't think societally that these strange occurrences happen very often. In fact, I think the average person on the street probably thinks that they happened to a very select few, many of whom are crazy.

But when you talk to each individual, you find it incredible how often nearly everyone has some type of strange occurrence in their life, not necessarily a full blown UFO alien abduction case, but a strange, unexplainable experience. Nonetheless, stories of ghosts as you mentioned, Jay, or cryptids, and all of these things go back thousands of years.

I've had such a strange experience with this myself. Jay is somebody who's a lifelong experiencer, but I'm someone who only came to this in the last few years and started to really take it seriously, and even going through my own process, it's wild to me that I saw a UFO when I was thirteen years old, but then I spent the rest of my life up until just a few years ago when I started taking this seriously, thinking that UFOs weren't real.

bunch of other things going on in your life. And I think it's really easy to just sort of like skip past that part and just be like, well, I don't think about that too much, and you just assume that you're wrong somehow and you carry on. But I think that once people get more educated about the structure and the content of these experiences, how they take place, what it's like, how it impacts people that they start to.

down there in the past. You know, Jeff really takes this stuff incredibly seriously and even thinks that this is really the future of social sciences at large. You know, whether it's anthropology, whether you're looking at religious study theology, you know, psychology. There are so many aspects of the soft science, as they're sometimes called, that really could be well informed by the history of anomalous phenomena. And it's

absolutely true. I'm so glad that we have Diana Pisalka on cosmosis, so glad that we have Jeff Kreipel on cosmosis, and Stephen Finley, doctor Stephen Finley, who contributes incredibly well to cosmosis. People that really look at religious studies, because if we're looking at something that impacts culture at the level of myth and that it's passed around by anecdote and it affects our belief system so much, that's exactly what religious studies scholars do. We're not just like sitting

there and talking to a priest. We're talking about the people that study the Catholic Church, that study these religions and how they operate. There's a difference there, There's a nuance there that people need to really understand. We're not throwing these two things together. We're using the advantages of these experts that look at belief systems incredibly important when you're dealing with a phenomenon like this.

something that Whitley talks about in Communion. Actually, when he compared the stories from thousands of years ago, how there'll be an account, and it was that the fairies came down from the trees, and he described these beings with the big eyes and these little guys. Then you turn the page and it's like a modern day abduction story about these beings came down from the sky. It very well, maybe the exact same experience that's happening, but we're seeing

it through a different lens. We live in the space age a thousand years ago that was way beyond the way of thinking.

that change over time. As tough as that is, I think that like coming to terms with like, Okay, that's the reality of what we're dealing with here, So how do we approach this? It's about not demanding that the data conforms to our expectations of the kind of data that we would like to work with, but instead looking at the data as it exists and trying to be innovative about how we're going to approach it in a way that we can make progress.

in the field these days. He also puts forward that there might be differences in the brains of people that are having these experiences regardless of modality, like multi modality experiencers. You know how some people their second toe is longer than their first hour ear lobes or something like this. And there's such a study even from the intelligence community,

but also now among researchers about these family lines. You know that we find these family lines of experiencers that can go back generations, like we show on cosmosis, the case of Courtney lafal him. We see one of his sons on the show, we see his grandmother. They're all experiencers,

and they're all multi modality experiencers. Courtney and his grandmother they saw a UFO together when Courtney was a child, and then that opened up a conversation in the family where she was able to tell him that she and

other family members had seen UFOs in the past. With that and other experiences, it really not just like opened up the conversation among the family in a way that could engender a sense of honesty and openness about all these things, making people closer together, more intimate, but it also kind of opened up Courtney's worldview. He felt allowed to look at this stuff. And as he felt maybe allowed to look at this stuff and was able to kind of embrace it on that level. He found this stuff,

he found more things. He found situations of mediumship, He found situations of precognition, culture, geist, activity, and so much else.

we definitely have this sense that there's this connection. I think experiencers in particular have a real experiential understanding that this has something to do with consciousness and with the afterlife, you know, all of these things that we're really not talking about one phenomenon, but kind of a meta phenomenon that encompasses all of these different, unknown and often ignored aspects of.

to begin to make sense to us. And so like, there could be a more exciting time, I think, to be studying these things, because I think we're about to make progress in a place where we've been stymied for a while.

all have their flaws. We may be encountering something so much more beyond the scales of what we can even currently grasp, right. Yeah. Absolutely.

but we don't look at the object part. And according to him, like that may be an issue because getting into the kind of like the philosophy of this, like what is an object? Are we making assumptions about what an object is? And especially with something like that can appear as a nuts and bolts craft versus like orb

phenomena or something even more vaporous than that. You know, maybe we have been making some overboard assumptions about what we really term as an object or what kinds of classes of objects we're looking at, And so with him, he's talking about things like a hyper object is a situation where there's an object that operates on such a grand scale, And often this is something that we wouldn't think of as an object, like, for example, a pizza

restaurant is an example that's using the show. You could replace all the things in a pizza restaurant and it would still be considered by the people in the neighborhood as the same pizza restaurant. You know, the employees could change the ovens, could change everything like that, but we still think of it as the same pizza hut, whatever

you have there. If you go bigger than that, there's the corporation level, or like there's the economy, and these are things that are so big, These are concepts that are so big we articulate them as a thing the economy, but we can't really grasp even the best economists, they can't understand at any given moment what the heck the economy is truly doing on every single layer at any

one particular time. And what he's suggesting that essentially, it's possible that anomalous phenomenon that UFOs et cetera, could be operating on such a grand scale that it is functioning akin to that, like the economy, a situation that we're trying to wrap our heads around with these edge states, something that may be absolutely impossible for our human minds to completely wrap our arms around.

having our lives. Which isn't to say that they haven't done bad things also, but I mean, I think the real point is that, like we're asking for something from the intelligence apparatus that's like it's fundamentally not set up to do.

And the thing that we're supposed to believe about this within the disclosure narrative is that, like, the best data that we can have is data that's given us to us by other people that they can either confirm nor deny about the vehicles that these things ride around in. And it's like, but why wouldn't we just go talk to the people who've interacted with these things anything.

and we are open to their things. But I think in general, most of the people in the world, certainly in our country, aren't necessarily as invested in this topic, do you know. I think that's part of it. You know, I felt this piece was so great and I thought Whitley was just fantastic in it. It's kind of come full circle for him because this is gaining some strength and some momentum and he should get his day.

to be a trailblazer. I mean, his recent book Them absolutely incredible in terms of looking at the high strangeness effects and the kind of inconvenient details that we're really talking about on the show. Them was a huge, huge inspiration both Kelly and I in working on the kind of like groundwork that we laid for the show. As a new book, the Fourth Mind, that really gets into the grays, and I'm really looking forward to the conversation around that later this year. It's going to be absolutely

wonderful to hear from him that way. But yeah, I mean he deserves every accolade. He deserves to have this resurgence, and it's so absolutely wonderful to see, you.

This guy not only has he not retracted a story or anything, he has stayed in this community. He has stuck to everything, and he is still to me the forefront. He makes very poignant comments that are very interesting and make me reflect on these possibilities. And I think he's as important now as he was when he came out with Communion, and that's to me, that kind of solidifies him more.

and on Prime. You can find more about Jay and Kelly at on tocolps dot com, O N T O C A L Y P s E dot com. Now, thanks for listening to be on Contact. We'll be back next week with an all new episode. You can follow me Captain Ron on Twitter and Instagram at c I T D Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by checking out Contact indeedeesert dot com. Stay open minded and rational as we explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.