🥤Dr Pepper: The Mystery & Magic of America’s #2 Soda | 37

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the best idea yet early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Well, you know what they say, Jack. You never do forget your first time, do you, man? Which one are we talking about, Nick? I don't know. Do you want to make a confession here, Jack? Oh, boy. You know, it's a pretty big audience, so I'm like, this may as well be the time and place.

So I was 36 when I had my first Dr. Pepper. Wow. It just never happened to me. Nobody ever showed me how to do it, so I'd never tried it before. You probably felt a little peer pressure, which made you even more nervous about it. It was Wednesday, June 5th when it finally happened.

We were in lovely Los Angeles. It was a chilly morning, and you said, now's the time. I'm ready. You actually blindfolded me, and you handed me a can, and you said, Jack, crack this open and try it. Boom. I don't know what I just drank is my first thought. My second thought? I want another sip of it. It was like a drink that couldn't decide what it wanted to be when it grew up. So it decided to be all those things.

Well, the taste left an impact on your tongue, Jack, because it's actually made up of 23 different flavors. Exactly what those flavors are is a closely guarded trade secret. But if you had to speculate, what would you say is in there? I'd say there's some barbecue sauce. I think there's cherries. I think there's prunes. There might be pepper, although I have no idea. It tasted very chemically in the best possible way. And it was unlike any soda experience I'd ever had.

Well, today we'll find out why that experience is so unique because we're getting into the story of Dr. Pepper. For over a century, Dr. Pepper was the Switzerland of sodas. It was a neutral party in the ongoing Pepsi versus Coca-Cola soda wars. But in 2023, it overtook Pepsi to become America's second most popular soda.

We repeat, Dr. Pepper, not Pepsi, is the second most popular soda in the United States. It's also the preferred drink of TikTok mixologists with breakout recipes including Dr. Pepper with pickles. But Dr. Pepper itself was started as a...

weird soda fountain experiment in a Texas drugstore back in 1885, a year before Coca-Cola was invented and eight years before Pepsi. To this day, Dr. Pepper's 23 ingredients are a closely guarded trade secret oh in a wild detail for its first 80 years dr pepper was pretty much just a texas thing yeah it wasn't until the 1960s that dr pepper really broke out of the south and took its acquired taste national all because

Because it broke the first rule of marketing that we ever learned. Along the way in this story, we'll hear how the greatest supporter of Dr. Pepper was ironically and shockingly Coca-Cola itself. We'll also see the importance of a home field advantage. Today, I call Dr. Pepper the most differentiated trademark in all beverage. And how the whole company was saved by a man with huge feet. This is the ultimate underdog story. Here's why Dr. Pepper is the best idea yet.

From Wondery and T-Boy, I'm Nick Martell. And I'm Jack Cravici-Kramer. And this is The Best Idea Yet. The untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed with. And the bold risk-takers who made them go viral. I got that feeling again. Something familiar but new. We got it coming to you. I got that feeling again. They changed the game in one move. Yes, I did

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It's a sweltering afternoon in 1885, and the air inside Morrison's old corner drugstore in Waco, Texas, is thick with the scent of sugary syrups. The soda fountain sits mostly idle. Customers aren't excited about the usual flavors anymore. Lemon, lime, vanilla, they've all lost their spark. Behind the counter, a young pharmacist watches, stirring a glass absentmindedly. The flavors feel predictable. He wants something different. He wants something new.

This is Charles Alderton. Born in Brooklyn, trained in medicine in Galveston, Texas, and now a pharmacist down here in Waco. Helping cure people is his passion. But strangely, maybe even fatefully, he also... has a thing for flavor. It sounds like an odd pastime for a guy who spends his days measuring out cough syrups and ointments, but this is the late 19th century. It's actually the golden age of artificial flavoring. Science and industry are teaming up.

point in time to create new tastes new sensations that people have never tried before up until this point flavors come from fruits and spices that's about it but now Chemists are coming up with ways to extract, refine, and bottle brand new flavors. It's like your taste buds just went from a life of bland monochrome to glorious technicolor. Your tongue is tasting the rainbow for the first time ever. So Charles is just swept up in the craze. It's a smart side hustle for a young pharmacist too.

And in fact, Charles has already taken it one step further because he launched his own flavor extraction business to cash in on the booming market for mass-produced flavorings. Maybe even make his fortune as a literal tastemaker. Except, it didn't work out that way. In 1885, a fire wipes out his business. We don't have any records to show what happened or what he lost. But by the time the smoke cleared, Charles wasn't his own boss anymore.

Instead, he's working behind the counter at Morrison's Old Corner Drugstore in Waco, Texas. He's mixing medicines and sodas. Now we know what you're thinking. A doctor making soda? What a waste of talent and training. But in a way, this guy's actually perfectly suited for it. Because he's a trained chemist with a deep understanding of flavor. It's like putting Walter White in charge of the cocktail bar.

Because at this time, soda isn't just a sweet treat. Soda is actually a medicine. So across the country, they're serving up fizzy drinks that claim to cure everything from indigestion to fatigue. And they're not exactly subtle about it either. A lot of those early sodas, they contain some... How would you put it, Jack?

energizing ingredients? Well, there's caffeine, there's alcohol, there's even cocaine and opium. Common ingredients into these sodas at drugstores. Nick, cocaine and opium were not illegal at this time. And cocaine was believed to help your body. It didn't even require a prescription. You just walk in and you ask for it. OTC cocaine. A lot of these elixirs are basically the Victorian-era Red Bull.

But instead of giving you wings, each one is meant to treat a very specific ailment. Way more active ingredients, way less government oversight. These medicinal sodas, though, they aren't mass-produced. Instead, every drugstore has a soda jerk like Charles. These guys are like a barista, but for soda. Each drink has to be custom prepared by a soda jerk.

The title soda jerk, we should point out, doesn't refer to their attitude. It actually started out as a pun because of the motion of jerking the levers of the soda fountain. So instead of a soda clerk... you get a soda jerk. Basically, this was the first ever dad joke, is what we're saying.

So part pharmacist, part mixologist, soda jerks throw their flavorings and their supposed medicinal ingredients into a glass, and they add a big dash of carbonated water from the soda fountain. And voila, a bubbly concoction to cure what ails you.

Or at least taste like it might. Because they're not just mixing in the active ingredients like caffeine and opium. They also got to make these sodas taste good. So some of the flavors they're throwing into their cocktail tumblers include classics like raspberry or... orange, pineapple. But there also are some weirder ones. Jack, could I interest you in a celery, rhubarb, or even clam-flavored soda? That's right, they had a clam-flavored soda. Because nothing says refreshing pictures.

me up like a bottle of bubbly clam juice. So Charles Alderton is down in Texas trying to come up with a signature flavor combo to get his customers to fall back in love with the soda fountain. Because that's not just good for their health. It'd be good for the drugstore, too. That's why Charles isn't just tweaking old recipes. He's aiming to create something entirely new.

Something that will cause a town-wide taste sensation, like the ramen burger of 2013, or Jack, your favorite, the cronut of that same year. But Charles' inspiration is the drugstore itself. Because all those different medicines and flavors at the soda fountain, their smells just hang in the hot Texas air. And Charles loves that smell. So he tried to make it into a drink form.

He's trying to turn the essence of drugstore into a consumable beverage. Is that correct, Jack? Eau de Pharmacy. And after countless trials, he lands on a mix of 23 different flavors. It's November 1865, and this day will go down in history. That's right, a 23-flavor formula designed to taste like the fruity atmosphere of a 19th century pharmacy. This is the first Dr. Pepper. And Jack, I gotta ask, what exactly are those flavors?

To this day, we do not know. It has never been revealed publicly what the 23 ingredients of Dr. Pepper are. It is truly incredible that after all these years, nobody at the company has ever leaked the flavor to TMS. It's like a witch's brew of tonics, corn syrup, nutmeg, allspice, unpronounceable randos. We don't even know. Some say it's a mix of cherry, licorice, and cola flavors. Others claim there's a hint of prune juice. The only thing we do know for sure, it's impossible to describe.

Even back then, people had trouble pinning down exactly what it tasted like. And that weakness will actually become Dr. Pepper's greatest strength. More on that in a bit. But here's the weird thing. Despite Charles's background in pharmaceuticals, and despite the medicinal soda trend at the time, his new drink doesn't contain any stimulants at all. That's right. This original Dr. Pepper formula has no cocaine. It doesn't even have caffeine. Opium?

No-pium. It's just an entirely unique new jumble of flavors. And I can't believe I had to say that. No cocaine included. We can tell you that Coca-Cola did have cocaine in its original formula. Hence the Coke name. Yeah, addictive ingredients, such a competitive advantage. Records show Dr. Pepper is first served to the public on December 1st, 1885, a full year before Coca-Cola even hits the market. And the response to this first Dr. Pepper was huge.

Word spreads fast. Pretty soon, folks are lining up at the counter at Morrison's Drugstore, sipping it on their lunch breaks. People start asking for it by name. And Jack, the name of this concoction is...

Dr. Pepper? Not yet. Right now, it doesn't have an official name. When people order it, they simply ask for the Waco. The Waco. I kind of like it. We can work with that. But it seems like the only person in town who's not hooked on the Waco. is the creator himself, Charles. The soda fountain is in full flow, but Charles just is not satisfied. For him, the drink's been a fun experiment.

But it's not the medical career that he dreams of. So he hands in his two weeks notice to his boss, the owner of Morrison's drugstore, Wade Morrison. Along with his name tag and keys, there's something else Charles gives Wade on his very last day. Charles sells Wade, the recipe for what will become Dr. Pepper. And we don't know for how much, but Charles doesn't even look back. He goes on to work at a local drug manufacturer and eventually becomes one of the leading chemists in the South.

So this leaves Wade Morrison, the drugstore owner, with this new drink that's proven just the tonic for his flagging soda fountain. It's just missing one thing to take it to the next level. It's missing a real name. Now, we don't know a ton about Wade Morrison, the pharmacist, but we do know one thing for sure. He came up with the name Dr. Pepper. But we don't know exactly why.

There are plenty of theories. There are even a few candidates of doctors with a family named Pepper that Wade may have named his first drink after as a kind of tribute. But honestly, Jack, doesn't really matter with a name as perfect as this, because sodas at the time, they were much more... more about the medicinal qualities than their taste. And Dr. Pepper, it embraces this whole health tonic thing. It's basically saying, I'm a drinkable Advil.

Pretty soon, other pharmacies in nearby towns start asking Wade to ship them pre-mixed Dr. Pepper syrup so they can add it to their soda fountains. There is so much demand, so quickly, that Wade starts cooking up batches of the stuff in his own basement. But he just can't meet demand. He needs to bring in someone who can help him scale this 23 flavor phenomenon or risk losing all his momentum.

So he reaches out to another Waco resident named Robert Lazenby. And Lazenby already has a pretty successful soda of his own called Circle A Ginger Ale. He has the experience that could help Wade, a guy who's been making the soda in his basement the last few months. Also, he's got something even more important, a bottling plant.

Lazenby has a reputation for being a hothead. He's also got grit because he's partially blind due to a childhood illness. And Jack, he's loyal. He fights for the people he cares for. He even once faced down the Ku Klux Klan when they wanted him to fire the black foreman at his bottling plant. And we assume he can keep a secret because Wade is about to share his secret 23 flavor formula.

Right now, Dr. Pepper is only available at soda fountains in and around Waco. But with Lazenby's bottling plant, Dr. Pepper could be on the shelves of local grocery stores. This also takes it out of the soda fountains in the pharmacies, making the Dr. Pepper brand more visible. Lazenby sees the local buzz around Dr. Pepper and is convinced he can take it from a one-town wonder to a national hit.

But there's one fundamental problem. The flavor is so unlike anything else that there's no way to describe it. And that could be a recipe for disaster. But Lazenby, he actually thinks this isn't a downside. In fact, he thinks having an indescribable taste is the central ingredient to Dr. Pepper's winning formula. Je ne sais quoi is not an acceptable way to describe something in Texas. No, it's not. But Lazenby thinks there's money in the mystery.

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Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts and binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery+. A brand new three-story brick building is rising in downtown Waco, Texas. Inside, workers hustle, crates are stacked high, and the air is thick with the scent of sweet syrup. It is 1906, and Robert Lazenby stands outside, looking up at the home of Dr. Pepper, a factory he built from the ground up.

Thick, solid 18-inch brick walls, a sturdy timber frame, and a groove tile roof. Dr. Pepper has officially gone from basement experiment to high-growth startup. But we got to ask, how did this all happen so fast? Well, Lazenby saw the early buzz, the crowds chugging it at the soda fountain, the locals demanding it by name, and that convinced him that this drink, this strangely impossible to describe beverage, has something special.

So to help break it out beyond Texas, Lazenby takes Dr. Pepper to the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair. And Jack, how big a deal is that? This event is huge. It lasts seven months. and attracts nearly 20 million visitors. Exhibits from around the world showcase new technology, art, culture, and cuisine. A century ago, world's fairs were like Disney World, the Louvre, and a TED Talk conference merged into one.

And multiplied by 100. Yeah, it's like the Olympics of innovation. But what's special about the St. Louis World's Fair is how it popularizes a new phenomenon, convenience food. Okay, get this. The ice cream cone, cotton candy, and the hot dog, those were all considered innovations because they were the new things at the 1904 World's Fair.

All of them exploded in popularity thanks to what was going down in St. Louis. And to wash all of them down, what are you going to have to crack open? A Dr. Pepper. Oh, yeah. That's why Lazenby and Dr. Pepper are there, handing out samples by the millions.

Some people love it. Some people hate it. Yeah, we're talking five star and one star reviews. But even if it only gets five stars from a small percentage of those 20 million visitors, it still represents a lot of people from around the country who are now craving this. new concoction. Though, of course, when they try to tell their friends about it, they're going to face the same problem Lazenby's been facing. How do you sell a drink that no one can describe? Here's the pause the pod moment.

When Jack and I were back in business school, one of the first rules of marketing that we learned was your product... needs to be clear. It needs to be understandable. It needs to be describable. Dr. Pepper's taste is the opposite. Yeah, it's indescribable. And it's divisive. But instead of hiding this fact, Lazenby flips the script. Instead of trying to define what it is, he leans into the mystery. Forget about the taste. Keep things big, bold, and a little bit cryptic.

He starts producing slogans and ads for Dr. Pepper claiming it's not a soda, this is liquid sunshine. And it gives you them vigor and vitality. There's one advertisement where Atlas, the guy who balanced... his planet Earth on his shoulders recommends Dr. Pepper. Even the slogans that do talk about the taste, they stay pretty vague. Like, how about this one, Jack? It leaves a pleasant farewell and a gracious callback. It sounds more like an etiquette lesson than a...

drink slogan. That's something you say at a dinner party when you don't want to offend your host. But all of these slogans have something in common. They're not telling you what Dr. Pepper tastes like. They're telling you how it makes you feel. Call Don Draper and mix me a Dr. Pepper on the rocks because this is a play the madmen would be proud of. If NBA programs tell you that the product should be clear, Madison Avenue tells you the product should evoke a feeling.

And when something is hard to describe, it feels exclusive, it feels special, and it feels different. What Dr. Pepper is basically doing here is taking what should be a fatal marketing weakness and they start turning it into a powerful marketing selling point. In 1906, something happens that makes Dr. Pepper's strategy look even smarter.

The creation of the Food and Drug Administration, which is meant to address America's rampant problems in food quality. And one of the first moves made by the FDA, they start clamping down on cocaine in sodas. called the fun police on these sodas, man. This spells the end for medicinal sounding soft drinks loaded with a...

Special ingredients. But Dr. Pepper is perfectly positioned for this prohibition on cocaine soda. Yeah, their ads proudly boast that actually, Dr. Pepper, they got no caffeine, no cocaine, no injurious drugs. Not like those others. sodas that have two scoops of the white powder in them. They even run an ad that likens Dr. Pepper to a Roman centurion defending people from caffeine-doped beverages. It's basically an action movie poster, but it's an ad for soda.

But wait, Jack, we know Dr. Pepper does contain caffeine today. So, like, what exactly happened? Well, in 1917, Robert Lazenby, who's still running things at Dr. Pepper, realizes that caffeine actually... does make people feel energized. So he adds two scoops of caffeine to the mix. All right, fair, fair, fair. Although through all of this, Dr. Pepper is racking up loyal customers, expanding their market, and solidifying their stronghold across the South.

flooding soda fountains from Dallas to Daytona and filling bottles down in Boca Raton. However, the national market for Dr. Pepper, it still remains elusive. In 1941, Robert Lazenby passes away. With the Dynamo driving Dr. Pepper's rise gone, it looks like its fate is sealed as a quirky regional soda. Beloved in the South, but barely known to the rest of the country. And it stays that way for the next 30 years.

Until a new leader takes over with big ambitions and big toes to match them. Excuse me, can you repeat that one, Jack? Big toes, Nick. Literally.

Smoke curls in the air of the Dr. Pepper boardroom. A man leans back in his chair, cigar in hand, feet, such enormous feet, propped up on the table. This man is Woodrow Wilson.

Foots Clemens, the CEO of Dr. Pepper. Not to be confused with the 28th president of the United States, Woodrow Wilson, who Foots happens to be named after. And that nickname, Foots, it actually comes from his high school days because his feet were so... big and his legs were so thin that basically it looked like two toothpicks stuck onto a pair of watermelons.

Foots has been working for Dr. Pepper since he started as a salesman to help pay his way through college. He moved up the company from area manager to vice president to COO. And by 1970, he is the CEO. And all that time, he's insisted on keeping his...

and memorable nickname, Foots. He tells people it helped when he was a salesman because it stuck with his customers. And if it was good enough to get him all the way to the top, then it's good enough for when he's the CEO. And Foots has one big goal now that he's at the helm of Dr. Pepper.

take this soda national. Because without a plan to grow beyond the South, it risks fading into obscurity. Just another regional favorite that never makes it past the state line. Time for a reality check here, Jack. 1966, Coca-Cola was closing in on a billion dollars in sales, which is about $10 billion in today's money. But what about our boys over at Dr. Pepper? They were selling just $28 million in sales, 3% as much as Coca-Cola.

Okay, so at the time, Dr. Pepper, still a fraction the size of Coke. But Foots believes in this drink. He's seen what it can do in Texas, and he's convinced it can win over the rest of the country, too. And to do this, Foots has come up with a sales philosophy that's as straight shooting as his career trajectory.

Young people, they don't care about tradition, he says, tapping a fresh campaign plan on his desk. Let's get him hooked on something new. Foots has already set the stage for national success by leveraging a loophole to make one of the big... strategic moves in soda history. In 1966, the FDA makes a key ruling that Dr. Pepper is not a cola. It's officially classified instead as pepper soda.

Something completely different from Coca-Cola and Pepsi. In fact, it is just this opening that Foots needs to pull off one of the most brilliant counterintuitive plays in all of business history. But to understand it...

We need to understand how soda distribution worked back in the 1970s. Now, Yetis, we've told you before, distribution is destiny. If you have a great product and you can't distribute it, then no one's gonna get it. But back then... In the soda industry, Coke and Pepsi and other sodas made their money not by selling soda, but by selling concentrated syrup.

The buyers were actually hundreds of hyper-local independent bottling companies spread across America. And these bottling companies, they would add carbonated water to the syrup, put that in bottles, and then it got to the stores.

Now, a lot of these independent bottlers sign non-compete contracts with their biggest customers. That means if a bottler is already shipping Pepsi products, they're going to turn down any offer from Coca-Cola. It's right there in black and white. Their hands are contractually tied. But with this FDA ruling in hand, Foots can go to the bottlers and say, hey, we're not a cola. You can totally take us as a client, even if you're already contracted to Coke or Pepsi. It takes some convincing.

But Foots manages to talk these independent bottlers into carrying Dr. Pepper in addition to the cola they carry. It's more money for them, and contractually, Coca-Cola and Pepsi can't do anything about it.

And with that one giant leap for Pepperkind, Dr. Pepper is now Switzerland. It doesn't matter which side of the Coke vs. Pepsi-Cola wars a restaurant, drugstore, or pro football stadium is on. Everyone now starts adding Dr. Pepper syrup into their soda fountain machines. You can see the result of this brilliant move today.

Taco Bell and Buffalo Wild Wings, they carry Pepsi products. McDonald's Burger King, they carry Coke products. But they all carry Dr. Pepper. And thanks to this smooth neutrality argument... Foots builds a national distribution network for Dr. Pepper, and he does it fast. This is the moment Dr. Pepper finally starts breaking out of the South. This deal Foots makes with the bottlers by exploiting a contractual technicality.

is the inflection point for the doctor. Which is probably how Forrest Gump got his hands on 15 Dr. Peppers at the White House. I must have drank me about 15 Dr. Peppers. Well, we got the receipts to prove the power of this deal. Remember how in 1966, Dr. Pepper sales were 28 million bucks a year?

Jack, where are we looking at 1972? Revenues have more than doubled to $63 million. Sit down, stand up, and pour another Dr. Pepper. All these new distribution channels help Dr. Pepper find new strongholds outside of the South. When Dr. Pepper launches in New York City in 1970, they sell 18 million bottles in the first two weeks. By 1972, New York alone is chugging Dr. Pepper almost as fast as the company's biggest plant can churn them out. That's 10.

million bottles a month. You're washing down bacon, egg and cheeses on the subway with a double Dr. Pepper check. One journalist in New York says that ordering a kosher salami on rye and an ice cold Dr. Pepper was a combo that brings him to tears because they go together like wine and cheese. By 1975, Dr. Pepper has almost 5% of the soft drink market. Not too shabby. But when you compare that to Coca-Cola's 26% share, it's up there.

it's still an underdog. So in the late 1970s, Foots decides it's time to shake up Dr. Pepper's positioning. Dr. Pepper has always had a marketing problem slash opportunity. It's the soda that doesn't taste like anything else. You can't compare it to Coke. You can't compare it to root beer. You can't even really explain Dr. Pepper. And Foots knows all this. Before, Dr. Pepper leaned into the healthy tonic angle of the product. But now it is time for a different approach. Foots will...

He wants to capitalize on Dr. Pepper's outsider status to make it feel rebellious, the same way he's owned his funny, big-footed nickname for decades. Alrighty, he started to do this in the 1960s with the slogan, America's most missing. understood drink. But then, in the 1970s, Foots wants to make drinking Dr. Pepper a badge of individuality. To do this, his ad team comes up with a campaign that completely changes Dr. Pepper's image overnight.

It makes it stick, too. The ads don't tell you what Dr. Pepper tastes like. Which was impossible. And they also don't tell you what Dr. Pepper makes you feel. Which they used to do. Instead, they tell you what kind of person drinks Dr. Pepper. This is Dr. Pepper's viral moment in the 1970s. These ads...

They're huge. Everyone is talking about Dr. Pepper. Who's a pepper? Cool people. Fun people. People who want to be a little bit different. A little weird. The counterculture. You cut holes in your jeans? You're a pepper. You make paintings with lipstick? You're a pepper.

Collect pet rocks? You wear mood rings? You streak across college football games? Pepper. Oh, and then Jack, Foots builds off this. He also lands some big distribution deals with supermarkets, increasing Dr. Pepper sales tenfold. Plus, he gets Dr. Pepper's the lucrative deal of being on the menu of the Wendy's fast food chain. Wider distribution for Dr. Pepper means more and more people try it. And a good proportion of them even like it. But not everyone is happy about this.

especially the people in charge of Coca-Cola. Yeah, in fact, as Pepper Mania sweeps the country, Coca-Cola finally starts to realize that Dr. Pepper is, in fact, competition. The FDA says Coke and Dr. Pepper aren't competing, but Coke's earnings reports say Dr. Pepper is a threat. Oh yeah, a threat that now needs to be crushed.

I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are telling the story of one of the most extraordinary women ever to have lived. The OG... of girl power, the maid of Orléans, Joan of Arc. She did things no woman has ever done, and eventually she was made a saint, all without making it to the age of 20.

What do you reckon, Afwa? Are you looking forward to Joan of Arc? This is one of my favorites that we've done, Peter. I'm so intrigued and fascinated by people in general who have a strong sense of mission and calling. And then when you add a kind of supernatural element to that, I just...

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Inside Coca-Cola's headquarters, a group of executives are hunched around a long boardroom table. In front of each of them, a maxi-sized cup of Coca-Cola. A whiteboard looms over them. Three words scrawled across it in thick black marker. Kill.

Dr. Pepper. For years Coca-Cola barely noticed Dr. Pepper. It was quirky, regional, harmless. But now Dr. Pepper is national. It's gaining market share. Young people, they're choosing Dr. P over Coke. And to add insult to injury, Dr. Pepper is using the same independent bottlers and distributors as Coke is. Dr. Pepper is piggybacking off of Coke's distribution network and Coke executives, they are not amused.

Because if Dr. Pepper keeps growing, it could go from upstart nuisance to existential threat for Coca-Cola. So a suited executive leans forward, steepling his fingers. We've got the money. We've got the distribution. He pauses to take a huge slurp of the giant Coca-Cola right in front of him. We just need a drink that'll put Dr. Pepper out to pasture. So, Coca-Cola does what any market giant would do when it sees an upstart gaining traction.

They try to crush it like an empty can. And Coca-Cola's genius master plan is to create a blatant Dr. Pepper knockoff. Mark Zuckerberg has spent the last 15 years of his career doing this. Oh, totally, Jack. Instagram Stories, Instagram Reels, Facebook Marketplace, all of them. They're one-to-one copies of things other companies created. We call this concept zucking, and Coca-Cola now wants to zuck Dr. Pepper.

So they throw together some ingredients to make something that tastes not altogether dissimilar to Dr. Pepper. They don't even try to be subtle with the branding. No, they don't, Jack. They call this knockoff... Peppo. They might as well have called it Professor Pepper. And just to rub it in even further, they test market this Dr. Pepper knockoff. Peppo, right in Waco, Texas. Dr. Pepper's literal home. That just feels offensive right there. It's Coke's pretty obvious way.

of saying, we're bigger than you and we're coming for you. But our guy, Woodrow Wilson Clements, aka Foots, he ain't a guy who likes to be stepped on. So Dr. Pepper lawyers up and goes to court, claiming that Pepo is a trademark infringement. And you know what? The judge agrees. So in response, Coca-Cola rebrands. And they come up with a new name that is somehow even more ridiculous.

Mr. Pibb. That's right. If you ever enjoyed a Mr. Pibb, that was Coke's desperate rebranded attempt to drive Dr. Pepper out of business after losing a lawsuit. And Mr. Pibb has a secret 23-flavor formula, too. One part corporate trolling, 22 parts desperation. Oh, and Coca-Cola does not stop there. They throw millions into advertising Mr. Pibb, and not just any ads. They steal the concept straight from the Dr. Pepper playbook.

The TV ads feature carefree, sun-dappled teens and 20-somethings chilling at beach parties while knocking back a can of Mr. Pibb. Coca-Cola is trying its best to convince America that Mr. Pibb is just as cool, just as fun, just as individualistic as Doc. pepper okay but you know what the problem here is jack they're posers yeah mr pep's never gonna work when it's not actually authentic they're trying too hard to be dr pepper plus copying is unoriginal and unoriginal is the opposite of individual

Coolistic. All Mr. Pibb ends up doing is make people want Dr. Pepper even more. Coca-Cola is desperate enough to create a knockoff. It must be an even better product than we realized. Pepo, Mr. Pibb, neither of them stood a chance. No, they didn't, Jack. Coca-Cola pretty much gives up on Mr. Pibb, eventually rebranding it Pibb Extra. But in 2010, Coca-Cola pulls off one of the most... awkward moves we've ever seen in business. Jack and I have been calling this the frenemy move.

Because Coca-Cola acquires the biggest Coke distributor in the country. And when they do, they realize that Dr. Pepper is now their client. But instead of finally getting their vengeance and crushing the can of Dr. Pepper... like the executives have always fantasized about. They don't do that. No, they don't, Jack. Coca-Cola realizes, you know what? We're better off letting Dr. Pepper exist and taking a cut of the profits by continuing to bottle and distribute them.

Basically, if you can't beat them, bottle them. Which brings us to the twist that nobody saw coming.

Because after decades of being the weird kid at the soda table, in 2023, Dr. Pepper leapfrogged Pepsi to become the number two soda in the United States. Let that sink in and marinate in your guts, Dr. Pepper. just passed Pepsi, the brand that has been battling Coke in the Cold War since the dawn of fizzy time. Coke still is number one with 20% of the soda market, but Dr. Pepper has a respectable 8%. And Pepsi, they've fallen to 7%.

What an epic come-from-behind story. Dr. Pepper, it is the seabiscuit of Soda Jack. It is the mighty ducks of soft drinks. So how the heck did this happen? Dr. Pepper never had Pepsi's ad budget. They never had the Super Bowl halftime shows or Beyonce holding a can like Pepsi did. No, you're right, Jack. But they did have something else. Dr. Pepper had consistency.

We should point out that is despite Dr. Pepper itself changing ownership throughout the years, like merging with Keurig Coffee and acquiring dozens of different beverage brands. Actually, more than 125 different beverage brands. Dr. Pepper is now a $15 billion public... traded drinkglomerate that also owns 7up, Nantucket Nectars, Snapple, A&W Root Beer, and yet it's still

has not altered its core message even by an inch. No, it has not. Throughout all of this, Dr. Pepper has leaned into being different. Never tried to be a cola. It never tried to fit in. It didn't even try to explain its taste. It just doubled down on its own weird, spicy little outsider identity for over a century, even if it took Jack 37 years to try one. So, Nick.

What's your takeaway on the story of Dr. Pepper? Jack, my takeaway is never underestimate a home turf advantage. It works in sports and it works in business. Dr. Pepper, they always enjoyed strong support in their home state of Texas. And that base of support from their...

home market that was invaluable for them because it gave the company a floor of support. They could depend on it in their planning and their forecasting for the future. In sports, teams have a floor of support. Their diehard fans in the home market will remain diehard. no matter how the team does on the field. And Nick, you're right. It's similar in business.

If you have a reliable sales floor, you're able to take risks, knowing that in the worst case scenario, you'll still be supported by your hometown fans. You serve them the red meat they crave? Because keeping them loyal to you lets your business operate in a much more... confident position. So Jack, what about you? What's your takeaway? Nick, I actually got a Star Wars analogy. So bear with me. Hit me, hit me. Here it is. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

I know you don't know the Star Wars stories that well, Nick, so let me tell you two. After Anakin has turned to the dark side, Obi-Wan warns him that only a Sith deals in absolutes. And you know what? Dr. Pepper seems to agree because their success lies in doing deals in the gray area. Dr. Pepper grew beyond its Texas roots thanks to those distribution partnerships with Coca-Cola and Pepsi.

dr pepper was able to forge those relationships because they didn't perceive the other companies as friends or foes per se and despite that inherent tension dr pepper was able to find gray areas of mutual interest namely in bottling and distribution they realized they could use those frenemies to grow. It's so true, Jack. The deals that get you ahead are rarely the obvious ones. It's not black or white. It's the ones that are in the gray zone. That's where you have a huge advantage.

Now time for our absolute favorite part of the show, the best facts yet. The hero stats, the facts, and the surprises that we discovered in our research, but we couldn't fit into the story. All right, Jack, what do we got? Let's kick it off. Just like Coca-Cola, Pepsi now owns their bottling and distribution networks too.

which means Pepsi, now calls Dr. Pepper our client. In fact, you can tell the difference between a Dr. Pepper distributed by Coke and a Dr. Pepper distributed by Pepsi. The tall, skinny bottles with a label closer to the bottom, That's a Coca-Cola bottle. Okay, I can picture this now. The wider bottle with a label closer to the top, that's a Pepsi bottle of Dr. Pepper. All right, I got one for you. This is the Dr. Pepper, Sergeant Pepper link. We knew had...

to exist. Get this. During the recording of the 1971 album, Imagine, John Lennon was so obsessed with the Dr. Pepper flavor that he had it shipped by the crate from America to his recording studio in England. wasn't available in the uk at that time he basically swore that he needed dr pepper to fuel his creativity but this is when he'd already left the beatles and sergeant pepper was with the beatles this goes back even further stick with me jack the beatles

It's possible. John Lennon was a Dr. Pepper convert at that point, too. But according to Paul McCartney, he got the idea for the name Sergeant Pepper. when he misheard someone asking him to pass the salt and pepper. And that was Dr. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. And that is why Dr. Pepper is the best idea yet. Coming up on the next episode of The Best Idea Yet is the musical that made the Founding Fathers rap. It continues to sell out theaters over a decade since its debut.

And somehow it made a hit song out of the political wrangling that laid the foundations of the U.S. financial system. That's right. It's Hamilton, the musical. Get ready for duels, drama, and a whole lot of fast-paced rhyming because we are not throwing away our shot on this one. If you've got a product you're obsessed with but wish you knew its backstory...

Drop us a comment right here and we'll look into it for you. Oh, and don't forget to rate and review the podcast. That's how we grow the show. The Best Idea Yet is a production of Wondery, hosted by me, Nick Martel, and me, Jack Kravici Kramer.

Our senior producers are Matt Beagle and Chris Gauthier. Peter Arcuni is our additional senior producer. Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan and Taylor Sniffen is our managing producer. Our producer and researcher is H. Conley. This episode was written and produced by Adam Skewer.

We use many sources in our research, including Fizz, How Soda Shook Up the World by Tristan Donovan, and Understanding Dr. Pepper by Leo Janus in Texas Monthly. Sound design and mixing by Kelly Kramarik. Fact-checking by Erica Janik.

Music supervision by Scott Velazquez and Jolina Garcia for Freesan Sync. Our theme song is Got That Feeling Again by Blackalack. Executive producers for Nick and Jack Studios are me, Nick Martel. And me, Jack Ravici-Kramer. Executive producers for... are Jenny Lauer-Beckman, Aaron O'Flaherty, and Marshall Lewy.

I'm Elizabeth Day, the creator and host of How to Fail. It's the podcast that celebrates the things in life that haven't gone right. And what, if anything, we've learned from those mistakes to help us succeed better. Each week, my guests share three failures, sparking intimate thought.

and funny conversations. You'll hear from a diverse range of voices sharing what they've learned through their failures. Join me Wednesdays for a new episode each week. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. wherever you get your podcasts.