This is the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast with on our radio.
It's Almost Famous podcast.
We are here for a very unexpected episode after a very unexpected event happened in Bachelor Nation. Matt James and Rachel if you haven't heard yet, announced they're split a little about a week ago, and just recently Rachel came out and spoke publicly on the Call Her Daddy podcast. We're here today to break down the interview and give our thoughts on what and the world happened.
Ashley, Wow, Ben, Well, first off, you said that they announced their breakup. We know that very much. He announced their breakup and it was shocking, shocking that he would decide to do that three hours after the actual breakup, especially as she is about to take off on a twelve hour flight from Tokyo back to the US. She talks about on the interview how he even knew that she wasn't to be able to get Wi Fi on
the plane. So how she found out that he posted about their breakup was a friend texted her just before she had to put her phone in airplane mode, and then she goes to Instagram, sees his posts and then legit the plane takes off, she loses service, and she has to just wonder what the world is saying for twelve hours. Ben, what was your takeaway from all that we learned, including that during this interview.
Yeah, I mean I would love to try to. I mean, breakups are always interesting on that in Bachelor Nation, breakups are hard, and I think Alex did a great job during this interview of bringing to light just how hard breakups are and the healthy part of breakups and the
unhealthy things that happened with him breakups. To hear a lot of their relationship throughout this interview, and I think there's a few things, if we can start there that really stand out to me, not really how they met and even some of the stuff on the end of the show and how they broke up and all that.
Like they got the first half an hour you could skip through if you guys want to go listen to it. If you want the full story and you want the background about the controversy back in twenty twenty and all that, watch the first half an hour. But if you want to get to the current stuff, fast forward to about thirty five minutes and.
This is the part Ashley.
I think that first jumped out to me, I watched the whole thing, which I typically would never do, but I was, for whatever, gerious, here's why I need your thoughts. The first part that stood out to me was Rachel kind of getting into the moments or the days before the breakup where the enter. Yeah, I am not a relationship expert, by no me and I really, you know, sometimes am shocked that I have a wife that still loves me.
You know what. I feel the same way. Sometimes I'm like, I got someone to marry me, let alone someone that I love.
But one of the things, and I talked to Jess about this last night, I think one of the things that has made our one of the many things that she does in our relationship and one of the things we do is a couple that has made our relationship work is we oftentimes, I would say ninety percent of the time that especially when we can we sit down to dinner together and we catch up on our day, that's when we ask, you know, the questions that we ask,
what's your highlight, what's your low light of the day, and is there anything on your mind right now that we could talk about, and we let our conversation go from there when Rachel said that when they sit down for dinner, they're filming it. Immediately, I said, if you want a recipe for relationship to it point, get have conflict, to feel out of touch, to have issues from a lack of communication, start filming those intimate moments like a dinner together every time.
Every time. That was interesting to me and our producer Sydney. We were talking about this before we started recording. It was like, every single meal that you guys go out to needs to be recorded. You should definitely have rules like once a week we don't record it.
I mean, it could have been an over dramatization.
Just it totally could have.
But let's say, let's say it's seventy five percent of the time. I mean, damn, let's say it's fifty percent of the time they're filming this Dinner's think about Ashley, You're you're really good at this now, right, this comes very natural to you, jumping on camera, you know, Freddie talking on a camera, but there's still a level of you turning it on when that phone starts recording, right, Really,
oh yeah, you're aware of it. You're not like just relaxed that you're working and that camera's on at a dinner, it always is gonna start or it's gonna start feeling like work. It's gonna start feeling like, Okay, can I have this bite of food?
Is there going to be food on my face?
Or hey, can I ask Matt this question about where he's at in our relationship and is he going to be upset with me? Because I'm gonna want to do it maybe during a dinner that he's going to want to be filming, and so we're gonna have to spend thirty minutes of this dinner actually having a conversation that matters and not just worrying about how the food looks or how it's plated, or when the waiter's coming up to drop the dishes. I I would say, I'm going
to go this far. I'm going to give people advice out there. Don't do this Like we just talked about it last week, Ashley. One of the things for kids when they grew up in a house that means the most of them over time is when they sat down with their family for dinner. It's a experience. So as a couple, do it invest into that time. I'm not saying you can't ever film it or you can take
pictures of it. That's their job. Yeah, but it felt like at some point Rachel was wanting to say to Matt, hey, this is getting overwhelming for me.
Yeah. I felt bad because there's obviously she was like so nervous to pick the restaurant because she knew that it was his job, and she knew how much weight just a restaurant choice would be that we would be a wasted meal if they went out and it wasn't Instagram content.
A wasted meal is the word she used, doesn't it?
Yeah? And I feel that makes me feel just makes me feel okay. There's like there it just and he got upset that she got upset when she was disappointed that she picked the wrong place because she sort of felt like she failed him and that kind of it makes me feel okay. And I was just thinking that. He was like, her tears freaked him out, and she was like, if you're getting so upset over this, how are you gonna be when something actually bad happens? And I'm like, how do you not know this about her?
After four years? But also, come on, now, we all have our moments, Like she said, she was like, I was just in a highly emotional state. I was like PMS, I was on my period and blah blah blah.
I was just not.
Feeling like myself and you have like those emotional breakdowns. So him being judging over it, Well, no.
We But first, Ashley, so you're running through the things that Rachel has said during the show. So, if you haven't listened to the show yet with Rachel, what Ashley is saying is Rachel brought up some of these topics that picking a dinner was stressful for her. She starts crying at the dinner. So that's why I want to be clear and clarifying. If you haven't watch this yet, I don't know if people will like listening will know
what you're talking about. She said, she started crying at dinner because it was overwhelming for her, Yeah, to pick these dinners that she had the stress of picking at dinner because she didn't want it to be a wasted meal for Matt to shoot content at, because they'd shot content at many of these things. And then the final point that I want to dig into with you here is when Rachel said, historically, when she gets upset, Matt gives just gives her space.
Yeah, and she doesn't want space.
She says, she doesn't want space.
And then and actually, I want you to clarify this because I think this is the turning point in the relationship for them. Matt once she starts crying at dinner and she's like, Hey, I'm sorry, I got a little emotional. I just started my period and I was like stressed out about picking the spot.
He says this.
He says, how how are you going to deal with some of the bigger things in life if something like this throws you off so much?
It just seems like a really accusatory statement. I want to give Matt a little bit of credit here. It's not as if like I haven't cried and Jared hasn't gotten annoyed at it before you know where He's like, can we just have a conversation without you crying? You
know what I mean? But the way I just think that a lot of the interview to me lends to the fact that I think Matt was looking for a way out for quite some time and he didn't know how to do it, and there was moments in this trip to Tokyo that gave him his.
In Ashley, I think you are you're spot on from a perspective, Yes, there's been arguments or conversations. I mean, Jessica is a very emotional human, Like she sometimes cries just because she's like.
I don't get it. I don't understand it. It doesn't make me.
I've never done that, but like, yeah, if Whalen comes up and jumps on her lap and I'm sitting next to her holding her hand, like, there's a good chance Jessica is gonna start crying, and it just happens that way, and so I understand Matt's.
A bet. Over time, Matt was like.
Hey, it feels like we can't have these deep conversations because you're going to get overly emotional. Now, I say that from my perspective, right, because it is something you think about in a relationship. However, I'll go back to this dinner conversation. I don't think the two of them were ever in a practice of having deep conversations.
I think so.
I think it was.
I think it was very rare for them to actually dig in.
The general vibe that I got was that they were not as deep into a relationship as you would expect one to be. After four years.
That that's a great way to say. I think there's practices and I think there's things done. I also think it's the spirit at which these conversations come in with I mean, I heard this, and if it's coming from a place of if it's coming from a bad place, that kind of criticism could hit deep.
Right, how am I expect you? Know?
How do I expect you to be a good partner to me? If this is something that there's you all so much. The reverse of that in a healthy relationship is sitting with your partner and saying, hey, like, there's going to be big and little things that happen in life, and as a couple, we're on a team here, So how do we get through these things together so that neither of us get thrown off?
Because when you get emotional, well I get upset.
And confused, and you know, I want to run away, and when you get upset, you shut down, and so how are we going to deal with this together? Totally different conversation than the you statements. Maybe it's more of an I statement that was needed. Is I feel like flustered when you get upset, So I need to know, you know, you need in these moments but you already said it when I heard it. Something had happened in his life. He was looking for this out. That's my
that's my take. Now, that's my assumption is he was waiting for that moment to to, you know, where, all of a sudden it broke and he said, Hey, we're done.
This was not like a random event. This was not her getting emotional. Uh.
She was incredible during this interview of giving him the respect oh so much, the pains that she was feeling. And I think the one thing that maybe over time she'll realize is, yes, this was the moment that it ended. It felt like in his mind it had ended before this.
She does mention that he said things really close to the breakup like I'm so happy you're my partner and stuff, and that he even so many times on Instagram said I'm looking for a ring and engagement's happening. And I just feel like this was sort of his way of talking him into himself into her being the one. But I think he has known for quite some time that she wasn't the person that he wanted to be with.
And do you know what my theory is on the fact that he posted so soon after well, I think he was like, if I put this out there to the public, it makes it so real that we can't go back on this decision.
Yeah.
Well, the social media world reacted last night very much against Matt for how he posted, when he posted, and how soon he posted, knowing that she wasn't going to be able to see it. I do think it was And she said that he has now owned up this and apologized to it, and she does believe he's sorry
for how this went down. I do think it was incredibly disrespectful, especially in a public relationship, to share so soon when she wasn't able to tell her family or friends yet and have the space to, you know, heal a little bit before you walk into this, you know, this breakup. I think that was a massive mistake on his end. I don't understand what he was thinking, but
you're probably right. Maybe it was that stake in the ground saying now we can move on, Which leads me, Ashley to the kind of the next point that most people were reacting very powerfully to last night on social media is Rachel said that since the breakup, they have been in communication and that that Matt continues to call her to check.
In on her.
Yeah, don't like it, but I understand what he's doing too.
Okay, So if we're going to give an explanation for Matt with and I want to be clear with your start of the sentence being I don't like it. Uh, and I don't like it either. I don't think it's healthy. But from a breakup perspective, what do you think he's doing?
Well? I think that an expert would say that he's keeping her on the chain. M but my gut reaction and knowing somebody very close to me that would definitely do this, there's just so much guilt, Like was it Alex had mentioned the guilt or was it Rachel? And it may have been both. He's experiencing so much guilt that he just wants to make sure that she's okay. And the person that I know that QC for one, Chase does it because this person feels so guilty breaking
up with another person. But then the other interpretation of that would be it's a selfish act because it prevents the person that was dumped from moving on.
Can I add an element into this that I think is happening.
I don't want to say I think's happening here because I don't know the two of them well, I mean, I don't know him personally at all, so I can't say this is who he is or what he's doing. But I do know this from relationships and even things I've done in the past. Personally, there's a little bit of protection here too, where when you continue to communicate with that person it's really hard or in your mind you think it's hard for them to go out and
bash you. It sounds like Matt wants to be known, and from Rachel's words, so it's what we take that he's a good guy. You know, he didn't meet he doesn't want to hurt her, he doesn't want to hurt people. I'm assuming that Matt holds that character very and very high regard personally, and so a little bit of this checking in could be a reminder to her of remember, I'm a good guy, I still care about you. I don't want you hurting. What can I do in this moment.
I don't think it's healthy. I think it's a I think he needs to stop it because what it does do is it does all the things you said. It keeps her, you know, connected to him, keeps him connected to her. It strings this thing along. It does selfishly satisfy any guilt maybe that you have where you can say, oh, I still am checking in on her. He needs to stop it, because breakups are that you have to rip the band aid off as soon as possible, and you have to allow both people to move on, even if
it feels like rock bottom. But I do think there's a level of personal protection when it comes to moments of letting, like continuing to communicate with somebody just so they are reminded, which is so hard now that I say it, like this after you broke up with him, just so they reminded that, yeah, I'm still the guy always No.
Yeah. Also an element of like being a public breakup. I'm thinking that, like he's also checking up on her, how how she's doing with the like the media and the fandom. Sure, but you know what, do you would you do this if it weren't for that? Probably? But do I think it would be appropriate for him to have one phone call with her after landing back from Tokyo. Absolutely, they definitely needed to have another phone call. Could he have texted her a few days after that phone call?
How you're holding up? Something like that, that'd be okay. What it sounds like is that they're having long conversations on the phone.
Yeah, it sounds like he is wanting to communicate with her more often that's health than that's healthy. And it sounds like she now has been clear to him that that's no longer what she needs or wants. And you know what, I have no doubt from this conversation that there was love a lot of love between the two of them, and so this is going to be really hard to move on from. But they need to move on from it. I think that's when it came to
my public breakup. That was the best advice I was ever given was hey, almost in a sense, and this is what was said to me. So I'll say it, suck it up, rip the band aid off, and start to heal, Like, don't stop playing these scenarios out of the past, Stop letting your mind wander to good and bad places. Stop you know, remembering all the reasons why it led up to this point. Rip the band aid off, put your steak in the ground, and step forward into
life again. And I think that's the healthiest way to move on. You both need to move on hopefully. I believe they're both going to find new partners at some point. That's going to be another weird moment for the two of them, right to start to build something new from
scratch with somebody else. But letting it continue like it is right now for any longer becomes really confusing mentally, especially when it breaks kind of happens out of nowhere, as Rachel was saying, because this came as a surprise, and so in her mind she never led up to this point, right, she was still picturing kids in a marriage with this man, and then this breakup happens. She needs to he needs to let her go so that she can start to come to terms the fact that this is over, this is done.
The last ten minutes or so, Alex really just takes girl time with her and is like, I want you to know, like you're going to look back on this interview in about six months and you're going to be so happy that this is over. You're going to find someone so great for you, and you're going to realize why it never worked out with Matt. And after watching Rachel for an hour and a half, I felt so much the same way. It's weird. I was also talking
with our producer sitting before this. We have it's been so long since we saw Rachel on the show, and even on the show, we didn't get to know her that well, and even through social media they have separated themselves. In the Bachelor, a lot of it has been like food and travel related, and she hasn't exposed a lot of herself. So this was like one of the first times we really got to know her. She has been mysterious.
I'm really glad that she did this interview. I think Alex did a great job walking Rachel through it, pointing out some of the things that Rachel was saying that you feel in a relationship, Like Rachel was bringing up that, you know, she felt like she was apologizing a lot.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that.
That Matt, you know, said that she kind of wasn't owning the stuff that she was doing. Alex was really good at kind of being pointing out like, hey, Rachel, you're saying this, and I get why you feel this, and I understand who you are as a human, but that isn't true, right, Not everybody's gonna make you feel this way, and so don't live in that Lie. I thought that was great, and I'm really glad Rachel did the interview. Granted, if she was never a public figure,
this would feel very weird, right, but it does. I think she was respectful to Matt. I think she was respectful to the relationship, even if maybe she doesn't fully feel that all the time. But she also gave us a glimpse of who she is, and I think she is a beautiful person who we've seen publicly be very funny and who is very empathetic and very kind and very wise. And so now I don't think this was a good thing for Matt, Like I don't think people are gonna love.
Him any anymore.
Yeah, but I do think this was a good thing for her to do, to kind of give her perspective on everything, kind of own, you know, this moment and say this is who we were, this is who we are, and this is who I want to be going forward. So I I have nothing but great things to say about Rachel, and I agree with what Alexander Matt actually said. Rachel is going to have a beautiful next season of life.
Yeah, totally. And I do want to just touch before we leave on the fact that that was an ongoing theme that she had to apologize in every fight that got She felt as if it was like a full circle, like she kind of started the argument and then she found herself at the end of it, like apologizing for the argument. And I think that looking back, that could also be a hint that he was trying to start fights and if they wanted to be ended, she had to end them because he may have wanted to secretly
end of the relationship. It could just be a crappy quality and something that you have a relationship with.
Yeah, I mean possibly, I think it's probably an in maturity and communication I have just can I have this often in our relationship. It is something that we've gone to couples counseling for, uh, to try to get better
how we communicate in the midst of arguments. It is never intentional on either of our parts to make that loop come back to the person, but it's happened many times and often now we kind of have a joke about it because of how many times it's happened, where it's like at the end of a conversation that maybe we came into saying something like I was hurt or I was I'm I'm feeling this way, and then again we're like the person that brought it up is the one apologizing.
We have a joke like that was wild, Like.
Wait, this is actually so relatable. Now I'm taken back what I'm thinking because yeah, so oftentimes the person that says like, ugh, that was you know who snaps is like, well, obviously the snapper would say sorry for snapping, but yeah, to apologize for the thing that the arguments are sure, I understand totally.
So I don't think maybe it was as.
I think if most couples in relationship thought about it like that can happen because oftentimes the person reacting, I think yeah, is coming from an emotional spot and it could be true and it could not be, but that person oftentimes does end up apologizing because the other person's like, I never meant it that way. I was just saying that in passing, or I was trying to make a joke with you or whatever like that was not coming
from a place of trying to hurt you. So the best way I think to close these conversations, if there is a healthy way sometimes, and this is what we learned through therapy, is just to end the conversation with hey, I love you and give a hug and like, yeah, we're good. Like because if you take it on forever, like if you draw these arguments out all the time, it's going to have to end with somebody apologizing, because that's just kind of a good way to close it.
And I think that was what happening. These were just going in loops.
Instead of just saying, Okay, I hear you, I understand where you're coming from, and I love you. That was not to me, but that Twitter or ex reacted pretty strongly to that, and I get how because it does sound like every time she was apologizing, I just heard it and I was like, I in the midst of a relationship, those moments happen. Or maybe I'm just unique and I'm a terrible dude too, and that's how it.
No, I appreciate you bringing up the other side, but I.
Don't want to be an apologist. So in closing here, for Matt, I think what he did and how he broke up this up. Breakups, we should not like demonize somebody for having a breakup. This is gonna be the best thing for Rachel in the end, Like she's gonna be great.
The two big things that I think people can get on for Matt if you're looking to get on for something is obviously the post timing and the fact that he didn't get her approval for any of that, and secondly for stringing her along, her along for so long. Four years is so long. She's in She's twenty nine, you know, so she's it's not like she's wasted like eighteen through twenty two. You know, these her formative dating years. She was like really thinking that she was with the
person that she was gonna be with forever. If he had had doubts for a while, he needed to step stringing her along.
Yes, I think there was manipulative behavior on his legate. I think that he strung her along. I think that how he did the breakup showed a level of a lack of wisdom and a lack of empathy and a lack of care. I don't want to be an apologist for Matt. I'm just saying some of this stuff. I think we react strongly to it when we don't see the plank in her own eye and say, oh, yeah, I could I've actually I have those same struggles in relationship.
I have those same dynamics sometimes and my healthy, loving marriage. Some of this stuff was just bringing to light some things that a lot of us could relate with if we look and you know, look inside of our own relationships and own some of the mistakes that we make as well.
Uh.
So I don't and I don't and I don't want to demonize him for having this breakup.
Breakups happen again.
I I think it's going to be for the best for both of them. I don't think he was the right match for Rachel. I think Rachel's going to find somebody incredible here, uh, and somebody that treats her consistently with love, care, empathy and looks at her with these awe struck eyes every day, like, how in the world did I get lucky enough to be with you? I believe that's coming her way. I do, uh, And I'm
excited for that chapter for her. I also want to say that I do for a breakup to happen so recently. Rachel gave a level of respect, care, consideration, and wisdom. If I was Matt, I think it would be awkward and kind of like feel weird to see this really this interview happen, But if I listened to it, I would walk out of it going I get it.
I can't really be mad at you for the doing this.
I hope he's not, And even if he is, I don't know if it matters now, But yeah, I think he was in the wrong.
I just don't. Well.
The one thing I refuse to do is to sit here and say, oh my gosh, how could he break up with her? That's not the point.
The point how he did it totally and the actions afterwards.
Now, Alex made a really good point. She said, You're going to be so grateful that he put that post out without your knowledge and so quickly, because you looking back on this, being like this was just a great guy and a great guy that I wanted to be with, is going to hurt you for so much longer looking back and knowing that he did this is going to be what prevents you from wanting to go back. You needed a boom.
You know, Yeah, she needed that steak in the ground.
Maybe that's it, right, And I think that subconsciously, consciously, I don't know, Matt maybe sort of knew that. M M no, you think it was fully selfish that he did They did the post.
Yeah, I do.
Okay, I think there was only I think one hundred percent. I maybe the only thing I can think that might have happened. Again, I don't know, Matt, but my guess is maybe he thought it. He did it thinking that he would benefit from it, like there was some world in which he thought you would like benefit from this post.
The benefit is that he I mean, in my point opinion, the benefit is that he put it out there so that it was done. He's like, I'm my hands are clean of this relationship.
Not knowing it was going to skyrocket Rachel into the spotlight now for a long time.
And I think that's awesome.
I think it's kind of like an arionomatic situation, right, except for he wasn't a dirty, dirty teator.
I think it will be great for her, and I love that. I do.
Yes, she already has a million views on this podcast after twelve hours, and that is the views on YouTube, not the listens included.
Yeah, she's going to do just well, Alex Cooper, I guess is going to do just fine.
From my goodness, courageous. I don't know what her numbers are like usually after twelve hours, but holy Molly, I.
Have to assume this is a big one. Hey. In summary, Rachel's awesome. She had a great interview.
Alex did do a great job walking through this interview and facilitating the interview. I guess the hope in any breakup, especially public, that they both can move on now. And the biggest takeaway for me is like, stop communicating and start moving on because the future is very bright for Rachel, especially right now, and I think she's excited to start a family and to be in relationship. So go out and listen to it if you haven't yet. This was our breakdown kind of the things said and the thoughts
that came to our mind during this interview. But if you haven't listened to it yet, it's very much worth the time if you're curious about somebody's breakup, to go out and listen to it.
So until next time, I've been Been, I've been Ashley.
See you guys.
Follow the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast on iHeartRadio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.