This is the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast with iHeartRadio.
Hello, everyone, welcome to the Almost Podcast. Today we have the cast the hosts of Deer Shandy. That would be Oh my god, did you change? Did she your last name? Did you me?
Yeah?
No?
Why does it say Charlie Levine?
No?
Because I was just wondering because I was like, going to introduce you to and I was like, I don't know what her what her last name is?
Right now? I could not do Charlene Levine Charlie.
We have Andy Levine and Charlene joined joining us. Guys. You guys may know Charlene if you if you haven't listened to Deer Shandy. It's a relationship podcast. It's so much fun. I've been a part of it. It's great. But Charlene was part of wanm. Pablo season, a very memorable cast member as somebody who has only appeared on one season in the Bachelor franchise and is yet still so memorable eleven years later.
Oh God, don't say that. It's been so.
Long and I was possible just make it a decade.
Yeah, because it's been ten years since mine aired, and there was there's was before.
Oh my goodness, I'm.
Still talking about it and it's still going. We're still going.
Charlene Levine, I don't know, Charlene. I think Charlene Levin might big cube.
It might. It might have been a mess, yeah, Charlene san Levine.
All right.
We were talking to them about how they just look as if the past eleven years hasn't happened. We think that they drink baby blood or something like that. Along with Nick viol who they officiated his wedding last year. So there's some coup here, some coup about looking fifteen years younger.
He gave us the potions bottle to.
That, because we can't take compliments. Is that you are also part of the secret society because you were also at that wedding.
Yeah, I just haven't been invited into the secrets of the coup. Yeah, that society yet. We've talked about it before. But let's just remind everybody you guys did a great job officiating that wedding.
Thanks.
That's so nice to a joint officiating too.
Thanks saying that that was a weeper. Let me tell you that was a high stress situation.
Yeah, I did my cousins, which is such an honor. But that's the reason it's so stressful, because it's such an honor and no matter what you do, like preparing for that, you're like, I'm I'm participating in the I have the ability to not make don't give yourselves that credit, but ruined, ruin the best day of their life. Yes, that's like my only option. I either do fine and nobody remembers it, or I ruin it and everybody talks about it.
The best you can do is no one remembers it poorly.
Yeah.
Yeah, anything below that you've failed.
I agree. I totally agree. Well we're here today because, well, you guys do have a very very fun podcast. As Ashley mentioned, you're talking about relationships. You're sharing insights. I don't want to say advice because that makes it sound like you guys think you know it all. You don't. You listen to people's stories. Well, you give insights into your situation and others and things you've learned along the way.
So we also talk reality TV.
Oh we do, And that's right and somehow and I'm gonna just make a general statement. You tell me if I'm completely off. Okay, you don't seem like a reality television person to me.
Yeah, I know they're way too highbrow for that.
I feel like, yeah, I just get this image of my blast intellectuals. You would not do this.
Uh.
And so my question, I guess from that is like why or am I wrong?
Okay, you're right, but I've married into the franchise, so in part I have no choice. But in reality, I actually that despite how silly it all is, there's a lot of meat to analyze in reality TV from a
relationship perspective, psychological perspective. Even though some people may go on the show now with the intention of gaining whatever you want to call it, fame, Instagram fame, whatever it is, now I think there becomes a no choice boundary where they are now in the machine, They're in the experiment, and they are part of this experience that they no longer have control over. And that's interesting to analyze from a psychological perspective. I would never have watched these shows
had it not been for Charlene. But I must thank Charlene for bringing me into the fold. Now I've become an ambassador of this amazing sphere of human life.
Has amazing billion dollar ip that seems to never go away. All right, Charlie, what were you.
Going to say?
Honestly, it's a really fun outlet, especially for someone like it Andy, who has a big personality and just never did anything with it and is super analytical and like just really can read interpersonal dynamics. And I think you guys know it's like we all went on this show. It's like you want a little something more out of life, and you're not really sure what it is, and who knows if the right thing to do was go on
the Bachelor or become the Bachelor. But what it can do is sort of let you flex a muscle that maybe you've never flexed before. And that's been really fun with Andy, Like in the Pandemic, that's when I had the time. I was like, let's finally do it, let's be podcasters, And it was so fun to see him, you know, just sort of spread his wings in this department and be the person that I know he is, but like get to share that with everyone. It's really fun,
Like it's very validating for me. It's basically a big I told you so for me because he's so popular and I'm like, that's all.
It is this and I told you so.
Fun I married of reality star. Basically, he is the personality that he could have been one exactly.
I don't want to take that. I'm thinking about it.
Any member of this.
There's a couple of honorary members, for sure. I would say that like Hayley. You know, Beca's girlfriend is definitely an honorary member, as is tany Rad and I saw him this weekend on a wedding. But yeah, there's definitely honoraries. And I feel like Andy, you are one jes for sure. Yeah, yeah, Am I missing anyone else? Obvious?
I don't know.
But talk about somebody that would never want to be on television Jess my wife.
Yeah that is true. Okay, guys, so you talk highly about you know, the Bachelor, Andy, You've enjoyed it for the most part. Have you enjoyed this season? Because this is the first season that I've said publicly on this podcast, I go, guys, if it weren't for this podcast, I wouldn't be watching it.
We I mean, we're with you on that.
I will say that I have enjoyed this season to make fun of it more than any previous season. And I always enjoy making fun of the seasons.
What have you enjoyed making fun of.
The most Oh my god, are you really putting me on the spot. There's so many teachers from.
All the amazing woman.
Oh my god, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I haven't been sure if I should say anything, especially not on air, feeling I could say it like Ben, I don't know, Ben Hannah. He does say the amazing woman in the plural meaning plural.
But apparently it's not specific to grant what we're learning.
The girls are doing it too, Juliana doesn't.
I think even Jesse dropped a couple.
You guys.
It's like the whole theme of the season as everybody forgot the word women. Yes, the entire cast.
I don't even know which ones which anymore. I seriously, I've lost track.
There was a there was a moment when I was the lead I forget. I think I was like I would say this is hilarious. I'd walk into a room and be like ladies, and then at some point, like one of the producers pulled me aside and they're like, call them women, it's more respectful, And I was like, yeah, I wasn't like meaning this in a a way of disrespect. I just like didn't know how to refer to a group of thirty people sitting in the room, like it gets a little nerve wracking to walk into a room.
So I was just like, ladies, I'm here, and uh, that.
Seems more natural, though, Yes, what else are you supposed to say?
Hello?
Hello women? Hello women? No? They literally like, we're like you need to call them women every moment in any interview, anytime you confront them like women, And I'm like, that just seems like almost like I don't know why. Maybe it is more respectful, but to me it felt so formal, and the formality of it made it feel the meaning like I thought we were all friends. Like that was maybe my biggest mistake as a lead was I just thought we were all doing this thing together and figure
out how it played out. I didn't want to make it too formal, but it was like, hello women, my name is Ben.
I'm thirty seven, and I am just thinking that it could be appropriate to call me a woman at thirty seven. At twenty six, I was certainly not a woman. I would feel awkward if you had call me a woman at twenty six.
I totally agree. There there came a point I don't remember what year it was where suddenly I felt weird saying the word lady or woman, and I feel like women when I was younger wanted to be called girls and no one wanted to be called a lady. But then lady was okay, and then women became not okay, and now women's okay. I cannot keep track. I literally every time I say I have to say the word, whether whatever word it is, I get nervous. And I was like, Okay, you can do this. Remember what's the
word you call a person with a vagina. You can do this, and I always get it wrong. I'm like, Nope, you should have said lady. That was a lady time, it was a woman time. It's craziness.
I'm still correcting. That's very amusing. Yeah, but what's funny about this, Ben Higgins, is that I don't think anyone would argue with me and saying you were one of the most respectful bachelors. Yeah, in this franchise's history known for it.
Yeah, that was good training then, because they made it look like that. They said call them women, not ladies, and everybody watching was like, he's so respectful. I'm like, I'm just trying not to mess up here, Like I'm just trying my best. But thank you for that. I hope, I hope that's the like, if that's the memory people have, then this was all worth it for me.
You know, Ben Higgins, I can't call him. Ben's Ben Higgins. You're a moment in time like I will meet we will meet Mark, Yes, Like we'll meet people who I want to listen to the podcast and they won't even know I was on the show. And it's like, when did you start watching? It's like Ben Higgins season, this happened just a week ago. Like it's like you are like the Millennium.
Yeah, and then the follow up is and I didn't watch a season after that because I hate that show. The the interesting thing so like, this is a good point and it's going to transition to me into a question that I think maybe the two of you will relate with. You know, when we just had our daughter, I was talking to a lot of people who were dads and I was like, I don't necessarily know how
to be a dad to a daughter. And they said this, They said, you are there to represent what a man should be to her and let her mom like do the rest, and so I do. Charlene hear you. And if that is a memory of the time that I was given the opportunity to be on the show that people say, Hey, that's how I want a guy to treat my daughter, then this is all good. Like then, like, I feel like peaceful about that and really excited about that because I hope I can now show my daughter
how a man should treat a woman. So I hear that, and that means a lot to me. Thank you for saying that. That's what my point was there.
Oh that's so sweet and also the most Ben Higgins response.
Oh, I am like geeking out over the fact that you guys made fun of Grant for women, and I'm like, then is like, this is what women mean to me.
Come on. So here's my frustration with this season. We've been like we wanted Grant to succeed one. I thought he was a weird choice strictly from the fact that we didn't know him. I thought he was set up from failure from the beginning, no matter who he was or what he would do, because he was coming into it as such a an underdog and somebody that we didn't understand from his season, we didn't get to know, we didn't get to root for or like share tears with,
So he just kind of got chosen. And I always think that's a weird choice when they choose somebody that really has no backstory on the show, if they're going to choose somebody from the show. So the hope is, Okay, let's get to know Grant. That was a big wish of ours at the Almost Famous podcast, we want to get to know Grant. I will say, we're almost done with this season. We have analyzed, we have made fun of, we have celebrated, we have talked about this show for
ten weeks. Whatever it is, I don't know Grant, Like I still don't know the guy. And I don't want to say that's his fault because I don't know if that's his fault. But I will say at some level it's somebody's fault, the show's his or whatever that I don't I don't necessarily understand him, and I typically don't feel that way. Even with the Clayton's of the world, I felt like I could get a pretty good judge of what he was after, even though, like you know,
the show didn't nexts toy pop for anybody. I was like, I think I get what this guy's after or what he's about. And I don't know if it's going to work.
Long term, but at least I know.
But at least I know, and so I'll watch that play out. I don't know Grant. I watch him every week almost as a stranger, and I want to know if you all feel the same way.
Company.
This is an echo chamber. I mean we have said the whole season, who is this guy? Where is Grant Ellis? Show us Grant Ellis. He doesn't even like when he has an opportunity to make a choice, he doesn't even make the choice. It's like, why did he give Carolina mixed signals when she pulled him aside? Or he pulled her aside even though she's her Why did you keep her by her demeanor?
As he later said it women.
She practically begged. She's like, look, I'm here. I'm saying, if you want to send me home, go for it. I get it.
Connection.
I have no hard feelings. And he's like, no, I really have strong feelings for you. I want you to stick around. We got a good thing here, and then goodbye.
Yeah, and That's just one example. We've had, well a beef I've had all season, and we really like Grant as what he seems to be as a person.
I'm sure he's a great time. I have nothing, but but I just don't know him exactly.
You've been saying that he's just like we don't know him any better than we did on GEN season, Like even the lone wolf thing, like we'd learned that on GEN season. I still feel like we've heard the same backstory, Like it hasn't gone deeper. And I don't know if it's him being kind of camera shy or what, but something I have felt has been lacking is a sense of conviction in what he wants to do. It doesn't
matter what girls have said about whomever. It's like he's kind of running around with a chicken with its head cut off, like, oh, she said that, he said she said that, and like it's sort of like I don't have a sense. And I think that's even reflected in the fact that he doesn't even know who he's going
to pick between the final two. And I know that's being teased and sometimes that's an exaggeration, but I really do see it, like I think that he doesn't have that like huh, that gut piece about the women, about who he likes best, and I think that's being reflected in his choices and how he It's just sort of feels kind of like, kind of like wishy washy. I don't really have a sense who he is.
It feels like he's playing the role and he's not actually the person anymore. It just feels like he's saying what he thinks he's supposed to say and doing what he thinks he's supposed to do. I don't get the feeling he really even wants to be there, And for that reason, I don't really have a lot of faith in whoever he picks. If he picks anyone, it's going to last.
I don't think he's really sincere. I hope it works.
I think he's sincere, but not for somebody's meeting on this show.
I think that if you were to like kind of zoom away from this, I think the answer is that he doesn't feel that strongly about any of them. No, even though he says I love you to Letia this week.
I would argue with all this, I think he was set up for failure, just like so many past leads have been set up for failure. I've told Ashley this. When it came to my time on the show, it was so good until the previews came out and they let me watch it while we were filming, and it called me the perfect bin and that destroyed me. If I could tell you the week it happened, and my confidence was shot and my fear levels went up, and I was like, this is I'm set up for failure.
You call me the perfect beIN. I can't live up to that. That's not who I am, and that's not reflective of who I want to be known as. I'm not that guy, and if that's how you're gonna market me, then I'm going to fail you in that. In that pursuit, I would say the same thing happened to Grant. Grant was promoted as this amazingly handsome guy, so good looking, the best looking bachelor we've ever had, which isn't wrong, But think about how he's hearing that I'm handsome. That's
what you got for me. You've chosen me as the Bachelor because I'm handsome, and so as a result, I
think his confidence is so low. I don't think he's I don't think he has the conviction because I don't think the show did a good job of preparing him with you know who you are, Grant, you're somebody that is confident, that is strong, that knows what he wants, that has the opportunity to pursue a relationship here from the show with thirty women, and you get this amazing opportunity to date all of them and figure out what
you want. And it's okay to figure out what you want, and you can send people home and they're gonna be just fine. They're gonna be sad and maybe a little mad at you, they're gonna be just fine and hurt, yes, and he the show needed to do a better job being like hurt him, like yeah for a second. And then they're going to get an Instagram following and they're going to start dating somebody. It's way more famous than you anyways, and it's going to be fine.
Or we could be really honest and just say that he probably didn't have the personality to conduct the show.
I don't see what's wrong with.
That, and which is totally fine, but that's on them for picking somebody who couldn't command the show.
Can it be d all of the above?
It's all of the above. But I agree with you Ashley. I mean, it's like there has to be a certain type of person to be the Bachelor. You can't just say, oh, this guy was a nice guy in the season and he's tall and good looking, let's throw him in the role. You have to have a certain type of personality. And I think Grant, honestly, in real life and human life, is probably a very cool, affable guy you want to
hang out with. But on TV it doesn't work. And I blame I blame production, I blame casting, and you know, to some degree as a third party, I do blame Grant for just not taking a standard being like I'm not going to just total line. I'm going to actually do something here.
I also think Ben is onto something by saying that he was set up for failure. You know, we only where we're down two episodes this season versus past season. You know, so right off the bat, we're not getting to know people as well. And I feel that the season itself, and you know, it could be like it's Chicken or ragg I don't know if it's because Grant is the way he is that the season is like this, or Grant is being that way because the season is the way it is. But we can all agree that
this season feels rote. It feels derivative. It feels like I feel like I'm watching like a parody of itself, except a bad one. Like it's like even the hometowns, Like, I was like, what are we even watching? This could have been from ten years ago, but at least they were working with what they had, with the personalities they had. This just feels like they're trying to like squeeze everything into the same formula we know, instead of just like letting it be and letting us watch what happens. It
doesn't feel like reality TV. It feels almost semi scripted. Like the scenes with Zoe to me feel like like almost scripted. And sometimes Grant's ims it feels like he's like reading off a teleprophone.
And that's another thing. What was Zoe doing there? Why was she? Why was she in fantasy Suites?
Because he obviously didn't like anybody enough, so he had to pick somebody to fill that spot.
What about Carolina and Alex? What happened there?
Yeah, Well that's that's an weird thing. We've had an editing issue over the past couple of season. Maybe maybe not a little bit, maybe with Joey's, but like Joey's season had so many characters and he was so charming that they can get away with it. This is like showing a whole bunch of flaws in storytelling.
Oh heavy flawsaw. Like to me, the Alex thing is a great example. She's you know, we all we know that that contestant exists, the one who gets the first impression. Rose gets an early first date, she's the one to be and then it's like it fizzles. But at least talk about how it fizzled. Women tell all, don't be like, oh what happened? Here are the answers. And then it's just like, oh, the drama caught up with you.
How does drama catch up with someone unrelated to drama? In Roman?
Just give one im where it's like I don't really know what happened, Like, yeah, Alex had just sort of fell behind it. We didn't even get that she just suddenly got sent home. It's like we're missing crucial pieces.
Also, also Night one, I don't even remember her name. I think was was it Ashley? Alicia Alisha, what happened there?
The weirdest thing.
They're kissing, and then the next week she's gone, gone, no explanation, zero, she doesn't even know we talked to her.
I mean, yeah, that's not surprising.
It actually made less sense after talking to her, really, because she said so good. Yeah, she said that the conversation that was aired was like the lesser of them all, Like I.
Don't get it. I mean, I think it has been I think as viewers of the show, so we're talking about this now as fans of the show, I think anytime we sit there and we feel like we can't root for, dive into. I mean, there are characters that I strictly, very vividly remember from ten years ago, who I was in it with each episode, right, I want to see what they have to say here. I want to see how they confront this issue. I'm going to
be sad when they leave. And I was sad when they left or I was happy when they would stay. That element of the show has disappeared because I think there were missing. We're missing those minor moments that help people make sense. There's a moment during Gens season with Grant and I brought it up back then, and it was my I don't know why, I could be crazy, but it was my concern for him becoming the Bachelor.
It was a moment that was celebrated by so many and I think it because it was a unique moment during that season. He asked Jenna question. He says, I just want to know your biggest fears? What are your biggest fears? And people are like that he's so sweet and sensitive. I'm like, I'm sure he is. I'm not taking that away from him, But that's such a simple question, Like, that's a question you asked when you were lacking confidence to know what to ask. In the moment, you can
ask that a thousand different ways. Yeah, and you can have the patience to explore the fears and dig into him. You just don't come out on a date and say, what are your biggest fears? That's a very generic question to me.
Well, yes, it's an interview question.
It's an interview question. Yeah, you're exactly right, and so it's very so at that moment, I said, I'm worried about this guy when it comes to his desire to explore these things in a way that is real and not a producer. When he said it sounds like he was sitting with the producer and he's like, I don't know what to ask her, and they're like, ask her her biggest fears. He's like, okay, got it, Yes, when to sit down, ask her biggest fears.
We felt the whole season that he was reading Q cards and I'm not saying literally, but I wouldn't be shocked actually if there were your guards, Like it was that bad. And I felt like the only times we really kind of saw Grant was when he was talking about his upbringing with Zoe and.
You're talking about the current season, right, you're not talking about genes and you're.
Talking about you know, I'm talking. Sorry, I switched gears. Best's changed.
No, you're right, No, I think the Zoe and Latias one at the dinner table, that long dinner table, is the one conversation that really stands out to me.
Yes, same. We got so excited because I was like, oh my god, here's Grant.
Yes.
I actually literally said there's our bachelor. Like now now that that has been uncovered, like he'll keep growing into it, and then it just didn't really happen. I think he's just not comfortable.
Yeah, and that's fair. I mean it is very fair.
You could argue that makes them more endearing.
That's if we just allowed that to be shown, like the awkward silences, like, let's just show it. Let's show who Grant is. Like if you just sat there and they look stared at each other for a bit, I would be awesome, awesome for us to understand him, like he's he's smart, he's a little maybe nerdy, he's he's awkward in like in romance, all these things. It's like, Okay, I can root for that guy if because I know
that guy. There is a thing that happens on the show when you are a lead, and it was all and it was a very clear directive by me at the beginning of the season. I said, I never want you to step in, like ever step in. I'm sure, Charlene n Ashley, you can remember some of these moments when conversations maybe like fade or they have a law and a date, specifically one on ones. A producer will come up if you remember this and say like, hey, what about uh, Charley, what about your this thing that
you're thinking about right now? And you'd be like, oh, and you would like start talking about it, it would fill the conversation, so a producer would kind of have to intervene to keep things flowing and to get the words that they like, the stories that they wanted out of it. But it was I told them at the beginning, I never want you to step in that that feels like this will make me check out very quickly on
all these relationships. If at any moment of producers like, hey man, you should ask her this question, like so weird. I think this season they're having to do a lot of you guys should talk about this.
Yes, that's smart of you, because I think, like in the past, like Juan Pablow, it's to take him as an example you love him or hada, And that was a good season, wonderful. Probably didn't take direction from anybody, like he was doing his own thing. He was even going against direction just for the sake of it.
So it's kind of difficult. But that's interesting, So interesting to hear you say then, because I don't remember that happening. What I hung out with one Pablo on the show, And I don't know if it's just because we had enough to talk about or like he wasn't receptive to that, but I don't. I do remember it happening more so like you know, girl chats, yeah, you know, Oh, what are you going to talk to one about tonight? Like before a group date or whatever, but not during like a one on one.
I'm going to say something totally insane. I'm going to say that I think people have become more boring since the adoption of social media. Not the original now this hyper adoption of social media, and I literally think production is having to hold their hands was no one is having good interesting conversation, So they're saying, instead of letting this organically evolve, we're going to jump in and we're going to basically make this a scripted show with blocking.
And I know that that may sound crazy, it sounds like I'm playing in a Devil's Advocate, but I actually believe that, and I have noticed it. If you watch from like Jesse's season all the way through, you keep watching, you will see the conversation quality go downhill on a straight line and take a deep dive right around the year like two thousand twenty, yeah, twenty twenty pandemic where
social media went nuts. It just goes right down and I think if I'm a producer and I've got thirty people staying around having nothing conversations, not saying anything interesting, I'm gonna jump in and I'm not aligning the whole generation. I know there's a lot of good people out there. I often shit on this generation and I get gen X, I'm sorry, gen Z's or whatever. Millennial is like, you don't know what you're talking about. We're a bunch of smart people, we have good conversations.
Its not reality to.
Be remember the dial up saying absolutely, I'm not m millennials.
I think what you're seeing is we're getting cuspy. Our cast is getting cuspy between millennial and gen Why gen Z? Sorry gen Z Wow? Cuspy is like they're not really millennials anymore. We're getting to see more gen Z on the show because I think they're like twenty seven now and below. So a lot of the cast, yeah is gen Z.
All you've got to do is count the number of likes and amazings from season one to season twenty eight and you will be amazed.
I think the closest Litia is thirty one.
Latia is thirty one. Latia is a true millennial. She she's not cuspy, she's a millennial.
And I gotta say, can we talk about how much better those conversations I read?
Yeah? Sorry, Now we're like really abandoning our young fan base.
I know I want you, but one of you has to agree with me right now, agree with me. I don't want to be left alone on this.
No, we understand my comment.
My response to that was I would say, people to me are more interesting on social media than they are in person, pretty consistently, like right now. I just think they're more comfortable with it. They express themselves more. You see tears on social media. Now, you see arguments, you see political stances, you see faith based claims on social media that people aren't doing in person. And I miss that world where that was happening more one on one
where we could like dig into it. And I'm going to have to follow you on social media to find out.
Yes, exactly than me.
Well, people are also afraid to talk these days because they're afraid if they say something wrong that they're going to be totally screwed for life.
And that's the other thing. It's not just there, it's not it's just a dumbing down of conversation. It's the it's the it's it's the fear in conversation. Yeah, you can only stay in a certain lanes without getting a big, big trouble.
Now, if you're not flexing that muscle all the time, and that's the only way you're really being social, then you are going to only be more afraid.
And Okay, just to.
Cap this because I think you know so no one thinks we're shitting on it. I think this would have happened to any of us that's been raised.
Anybody.
This isn't this, this is I'm more curious about it than I am dogging on it. I just A'm seeing it and I'm feeling it. And and I think The Bachelor is such a great study to see how people are interacting in today, Which leads me to the questions that I want to ask you.
I have.
Two questions that we haven't asked anybody yet, and I'm going to start with the one that's more relevant to what you guys do at your podcast. But as you witness this change, and as you kind of are highlighting some of the hurdles and you know, relationships today, what advice are you giving people to relate with them when it comes to how to make these things work it,
I guess maybe to make it more fun. If you were producers on this show right now and Grant Ellis was your bachelor and you had the crap of women that you have, what are you saying to them to help further these relationships into a place where maybe it could work long term?
Oh? Man, and this is why we're not producers on the bass, then I would say nothing. I would say we put all the onus on casting, and casting should get paid the most money of anybody on this show, and if they put together the right cast, you just stand back and let it evolve, and that's it. I don't think production has a role. I think if someone's a little nerve about doing something like, oh, I don't know if I should do that, I don't know if I shud do that, it's fine to push them over,
you know that line. But I don't think production should be getting involved at all. Conversation back in the day, like way way way back, like the real world stuff, it was literally just like throw a bunch of people in a house and step back and see what happens, you know, And I think that's what the batchel should be and I have to put the blame. I know everyone likes the blame producers. Are they blame the lead he's boring or whatever. I think the blame should be
somewhat put on casting. I don't think they're necessarily necessarily picking the right people.
Yeah, and I have to agree with you. I think that the more involved producers get to try and create certain conversations, the worse it is, because, like as you said, even if it's awkward, like some of the best reality TV is the most awkward stuff. Right, you're fringing like you can't believe, you just don't want to be there, but you can't turn away, Like why are we even being robbed of that? Although to hear them talk, yes, I want to have kids and get married and have a wife.
Berg's uncertainty principle, like the observed experiment is no longer an actual experiment. You don't get the result that should have happened had you not observed it. Yes, and I think that they should just step back and cast. I don't want to say better. It was not a maligning we have to some you know, some people on our show. I think they're lovely people. I just don't know if they were right for the show, they have to be careful about them.
It's the combination of the boat though, Like if you keep having a producer coming in being like, well, so have you talked about this, like suggesting things to talk about off, Yeah, and it's going to end up being the exact same conversations over and over again, because I highly doubt that their suggestions are bespoke to each contestant. It's just the same suggestions over and over again. That's why you hear the same conversations over and over again.
Yeah, then it feels scripted, and it feels formulaic, and it feels like the audience's intelligence is being insulted, which this season I felt heavily insulted. My intelligence was battered to a pulp.
And an analogy we had for this season was that it's like an old dated like the first restaurant in a town and they haven't evolved. They have the same menu and in the beginning, like you went there and it was good because it was the only restaurant, but then as the years pass, you go out of nostalgia, right, you have other options, but you're like, oh, but this
is comforting. They have this dish, I like, but then now it's sort of like even the ingredients are going downhill and you start to go and you're like, wait, why am I still coming? Wait?
That's the most amazing analogy you've ever heard.
And even more importantly, why are there so many people still in this restaurant? Well, if there's this many people in the restaurant, maybe it's good I'll keep eating here.
Yeah, goodness, that is brilliant. It's almost like, what you know, there's obviously a big change in production teams coming in that's been known.
Are we allowed to talk about that?
I would like to?
Yeah, me too.
Well no, I mean I don't know how much of a conversation needs to be happening, because my second question to you was what do you hope the show turns into? Like if you had this new start and you kind of said it, it's almost just like, hey, producers, show, let's trust that humans are humans and they're beautiful and complex and weird, and they're going to try to figure this out and we can trust them to make good TV. Because that's just like we're just wanting to watch real
stories play out. So it's almost like take a step back stop producing the show.
Think about if you had a season where the last three episodes were one person or two people. Think about that, and and the audience will be like, Wow, we're being treated like we have intelligence. This is an actual show. This is what actually happened. We're not just having a Zoe for some reason going to the fantasy suites.
Yeah, and we like, by the way, we like Zoey No.
No love zos lovely.
I just told you for Zoey is that she's a good actor and a bad movie.
Yes, yeah, well she just didn't belong there. They didn't have any Yeah, it was like it was it was like very smarterer.
She was a close smart.
Well, Ashley, you were on a been on a reality television show recently. I mean the big shows out there, Traders, Big Brother, like some of those Survivor shows, like the ones that have really like stayed relevant. I mean Traders doesn't have a creditor. Is pretty new though, it's very successful right now. Yeah, they don't have a producer in the room with these people.
Yeah, well I told you I didn't love that. So I can't believe we even mentioned my appearance on Stars on Mars Ago, but it was it was. I didn't know the ensemble show on Fox. They had a great cast is I don't know what happens, but anyway, they didn't have any producer involvement, which from The Bachelor made me feel like I didn't have a home, Like they didn't have a home base to like go to somebody who was like not I needed like the comfort of
going to somebody who wasn't part of the cast. Just well I needed a law like I had never done, like a show without a lawn.
Well I have.
I did Winter Games and Alan wasn't there, but I had plenty of others there it take his place. But there was like no source of comfort to me. And then I'm trying to do interviews without there's even being a producer in the room like they would have the producer would be like on a speaker asking you questions, and it just felt very impersonal to me. So maybe because I was trained by The Bachelor that didn't work, But like did that work for other Like we have
to ask Gabby who went so far in Traders? How was that? How I was doing interviews without a real.
It doesn't matter to me how they feel. I liked watching it. Yeah, like I don't care if you're uncomfortable. I think it makes great TV.
Is this one right here?
Yeah? I think you should. You should apply. Yeah, it seems right now for the Bachelor, he should apply to be.
A producer on the producer. What if we did a cast led production team? Holy, that would be good?
Oh my god? Actually think that would This is the answer to your question. The answer your question, Ben is you should be the producer.
Yeah, cast Led production team, best season ever? Absolute madness. Hey, I know we have a heart out here. So I want to give you guys the last thirty seconds. Where can people listen to you? Why would they listen to you? And what do you you know? How can people follow along?
Oh? Thank you? So we are Dear Shandy, which stands for Charlene and Andy.
Oh I always wondered.
We are a relationship podcast. You can write in and ask your relationship questions and we give our advice with you know, a dose of humor and analogies. But we are really known for our recaps. We recap the Ultimatum, Love is Blind, Bachelor, all of them, and we analyze it much as we did with you today. Very analytical and interpersonal and a lot of analogy. It's a lot of fun.
There's laughter, it's fun for the whole family.
This was fun for Ben and I. We woke up with you guys sleepy fantasy suites.
Oh man right, Oh no, we always have so much fun. You guys are just like you're a great team. I gotta tell you really are years ten years.
Ben exaggerates a little bit, like.
It's been ten years.
But it's good. Been close.
No, he exaggerates too.
I like, no, I exaggerate ten percent. It's always ten percent.
So we're it nine years and I say ten years. That's ten percent. Yeah, we're fine. Wait, it's good.
I know we have to if we have an out. But actually, does Jared exaggerate? Is this a man thing?
Oh my goodness. I was going to say, it's just like Jared exaggerates on time so much. He'll be like or he under he like is very bad with pinpointing time. He'd be like, yeah, he thinks everything was longer. Yeah, he thinks everything was longer. He was like, I'll say that was two months ago. He's like, no, no, no, it was like eight months ago. Like Jared, I go back up my calendar, look right here, it was two months ago. You nut?
Okay, so I didn't like to exaggerate.
Yeah. Yeah, we've never claimed to be the smartest, but we can talk. Hey, go listen to Dear Shandy. It's an amazingly good podcast with a great following, very passionate fan base, very fun fan base. After my time on that show, very supportive fan base. I would say as well, the great, great show going on. Thank you for listening. Until next time. I've been Ben, I've been Ashley. See you guys been Dear Sandy's.
Thanks guys.
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