Welcome to another episode of the behavioral design podcast. I am Simon concert with a lien Haley. Hi, how's it going? Pretty good on a shining in Stockholm, I'll buy you one day. The one day of the year that this is true. It's I'm inside it. Your podcast. Yeah. Yeah, you get out there. You gotta savor it while it lasts. Yeah, I heard you had a nice. You've been traveling porting. Yeah, I had a couple trips Seattle Portland. It's usually quite rainy and
dismal over there. But it was all so lovely. I think it's just the springtime effect. Everywhere is beautiful in the spring. Doesn't matter where you go. Yeah, that's true. I definitely forgot how awesome the spring is after a long winter. In Sweden. And like it's his feel so good. I have to make it easy to forget when you're suffering from seasonal affective disorder, so ugly. Exactly. Anyway, we have a really interesting topic today.
In the episode, we do these product D types between our kind of guest episodes and we're getting into things sometimes. Most of the time we try with you like we experiment with variable rewards. Yeah. We don't want to keep like It's too predictable.
Yeah, but anyway we have interesting topic but before then I wanted to see if you've heard a episode of another podcast it's if books could kill their, they have a podcast on kind of exploring various books from popular psychology to you know the five love languages and stuff like this to kind of in some ways debunk and go quite hard. Like their style is too probably.
To be overly critical in some ways, that's and really going for it. And they had a podcast recently or not, the book Nudge by Cass sunstein and thaler iterations to listen to that. Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely a fan of this podcast. I listened to the first part so that the nudge is a two-part. I guess, two episodes that go together, I've only listened to the first half so I can comment on that part. And then I also listen to the their first episode is on was on freaking out. Thanks.
But you can see his is a related as well. I was kind of surprised, how many of their airport books I have never read or you know, or have heard of but not I'm not really that familiar with because I think of myself is kind of a big reader but yeah, I'm excited to hear more of theirs. And I'd love to know what you thought about the, the nudge episode. They definitely. I mean, you're right. Like they take these books and they just shred them to pieces.
Pieces. There's like and they naturally did that too much, as well. Yeah, and it's not, it's hard to say, like it's hard not to feel a little bit sorry for for, in this case, the authors, because they go for them quite hard. However, it's also interesting to kind of just get this in some ways outside perspective on specifically, you know, this book, maybe less so the field as a whole, but more kind of write
this book, and and it's clear. It is an outside perspective that that I think is very much true. These are not social scientists talking about libertarian paternalism. These are people who are very much outside our sphere. And so yeah, hearing their perspective is very interesting. Yeah. And I guess to talk about some of the things they mentioned. One thing that I appreciate the bring up, is the donation study? Yeah. Because you know there's a couple of things that you can tell.
He's yeah we're going to Nation. So when it comes to our field, especially someone who's kind of like getting started into the field and want to do a presentation about it is like, there's kind of a handful of things. You will always see in a presentation and it's, like, urinal nudge. It's like the donation of organ study and there's a couple of others, and it's interesting, because for the book Nudge, I think the organ donation study has been with the urinal kind of, I don't know.
It's not easy. It's understudy. It's more of a anecdotal story. Those two have been like very, very kind of big part of explaining nudge, great white in the piano stairs and what most people think of, as Behavioral Science. So I guess why, I think it's nice that they race. It is a issues that, you know, while you have been shown to differences across different countries when the default is to being to be organ donor or not.
That is, in many ways. What could be called, like, a vanity metric in that, who cares, really? How many people are registered as organ donors. What really matters is if people need organs, do they get them? And how efficiently, how does that translate into actual organ donation? Not the intention but the, well, yeah, the the donation and the receipt of organs. Yeah, exactly. And I like that.
Yeah. There's not really that strong evidence to To suggest that because there's a default in place automatically get someone there. Do you do you know, is there no movement or is there just not as extreme movement? I've looked into it again, but they say, and it seems like they've done the research. But again, like hurt a good pinch of salt, they claim that
it's no difference. And even that some countries that have shifted regret has like explicitly said, he regretted shifting it, and that it's like wasted attention on wrong, are Of where you should improve things. In terms of great, we can get more people to be potential organ, donors, but many countries is also very complex still to actually get that organ, officially kind of cleared and then all of the distribution and Logistics and everything involved to actually get people.
I mean there's this very much relates to our conversation with Nick and in terms of the system's level versus individual level interventions. You can think of the organ donation is very much individual Trying to encourage people to, you know, check the right box with because through and and opt out. I was have to pause and make sure I'm saying the right one. Yeah. Right. The default is to opt in and you need to check the box to opt-out.
Yes. Or as maybe the thing that's really needed is the infrastructure to make it easy for organs to be donated and transplanted. And like, that's really what we should be. Kissing on rather than these individual level interventions. I think another thing in the podcast that is raised is the idea that The book doesn't do a good job of sticking to his definition of what a nudge is in terms of, you know, it starts to
finding a nudge. And then, as the book progresses is lot of interventions being suggested, which are like very regulatory. Varying incentive focused or completely incentives. Yeah, they really are incentives like me that, you know, a different formation of the incentive. Maybe it uses loss of version by giving someone something up front and then taking it away, but it's still Will an incentive.
Yeah. So yeah, that I mean that I found fascinating because I read this book so long ago, it came out in 2008 like I was in a second and say what I was doing in 2008 but that was a long time ago and I just forgot I didn't, you know, now as a you know, somewhat mature behavioral scientist, I didn't realize that these examples are really you know, you could catalog them as very You know, all this sea level. Yeah, incentive based
interventions. So yeah, that that was a little bit mind-blowing for me to come back and realize. Yeah, and I guess my somewhat informed prediction is that, you know, the story goes that Taylor and sunstein wanted the book to be called something libertarian, paternalism 101. You know, or you know exactly what they wanted to be called are gonna sell any Copies. Yeah. And so the book publisher was like, you know, What could be
better? Name will be nudging and they agreed and maybe, like my prediction. Is that maybe they then instead of completely changing the whole structure of the book or rethinking things, they were like, well, maybe we can kind of use squeaking. Some other things here within this idea of nudging. And make it work. But really the book is a book about a Libertarian paternalism. Uh-huh.
What would you think about that? Yeah, I mean I guess I don't know like what boundaries does libertarian paternalism have. Can you not have incentives with libertarian paternalism if so? Like, I don't know, I don't know if I really buy that.
Okay, well either way, it's it's just going to bring us to this kind of confusion of like, well, what is Judging and yeah like a lot of people will ask that and you know also this something that I've I'm sure your V experience where people are coming to like hey can you teach us not doing and then he was like well yeah but he likes mean by that is if the author's don't even know. Yeah. Yeah it's interesting because it's one of those things that that one pretends has a very clear definition.
But then when you get down to the actual Examples, you realize, oh no, this is there are not like really clearly defined lines here. That's not that important to me though. I don't I think there's a lot of squabbling in the world about like what counts as a nudge and what doesn't? And I don't know. I think it's a lie. No, I think it's completely unimportant. Things are good. Yeah, exactly. That's what matters.
Yeah, but anyway, I guess we don't often this inform other discussion on other podcast, but you know, this was kind of a fun, fun one. In some ways. And yeah, if you as a listener, have a chance to listen to it, share your thoughts with us. You can email podcast at have a weak, little calm. And yeah, be interesting to hear. So we've been talking about, not
judging. And there's actually some examples where when it comes to driving You know, nudging has been kind of shown as like, you are good examples of nudging. Good. You can have some form of traffic signs being considered a nudge. Yeah, certain indicators within the vehicle and so on considered a nudge, maybe as well. Yeah, well, slow down with the, like, the haptic feedback that yeah, yeah, exactly.
And or in case of I'm in this kind of car pool here in Stockholm for electric cars, and with Volvo. And when you drive I've over the speed limit. It doesn't obviously stop you from driving like 50 when you supposed to go 40. But you then see that there's like, oh no, like there's a clear indication that now you're above this speed limit in this zone, for example, which is probably the definition of a nurturing in many ways.
Yeah, yeah. There's a setting on my car actually, where you can set the max, I guess, like distance over the speed limit that you want to go, and then it will automatically prevent you. You can overwrite it, right? But it's sort of nudge. You in the right direction to not speed too much and I like that. So it's be too much. What does that say about you as a person like this episode I'm from Los Angeles. Only 10 miles over the speed limit, you know, us aside topic.
I think that I don't know if there's any research on this but I find that to be like, super interesting thing in terms of like setting speed limit because I like, I have this weird thing where I have, I can go ten percent above The speed limit. So if it's like 40, I can go around 45.
If it's you know, I'm dragging 110 in kilometers that's in my head but I'm no clue what other people have in terms of, you know, what is a okay, speed you think of the tolerance as a percentage, not as an absolute number interesting. Well the traffic laws. Do not do not think of it that way. When I when I have Been pulled? Yes, I have been pulled over for speeding when that has happened in the past. It's definitely just the raw number and and is too much. It turns out.
Yeah. But don't you think that it's better than to follow like a percentage because like you'll be less likely to be pulled over driving 45 in a 40 then driving 50. For example I definitely think so with some exceptions and it also sort of follows the intuition That come out of the psychometric research and how we like, think of the importance of different amounts as the sort of
face amount increases. Yeah. But it'd be super nourishing to know, like the thought process of like setting, the speed limit. I'm sure it's part of the calculation. Like, we're, we're going to set it at. Let's say, 50 because we think that this road can be, okay, if you go 55 or, I don't know, don't you think that's part of the yeah? Yeah, I'm sure there. There's some tolerance, but I wonder.
I wonder if there's been research to see like, what are people's, like, internal mental models for. What is? Yeah, we're gonna have to get get like a highway safety psychologist on the, on the podcast. I really don't want. Let us know. Anyway, I guess we're segue into talking about autonomous vehicles which was the product of Nick Shader and what it really interesting chat with him about that. Now we're going to dive a little bit deeper, so I mean, first, maybe I'll give a really quick
recap of the yes. The types of things that we talked about with him because, you know, I'm sure you know, it's been a week, we forgotten, we can just sort of refresh those, those topics and I think a lot of what Nick was kind of concerned about with autonomous vehicles was just having the combination of both human drivers and non-human drivers on the same road. And like how can we like create
physical barriers? To put these two types in different places, that was one of the solutions that that he had. And and then also just like the challenges of communicating between between the two. So what that when an autonomous vehicle has some intention or you can think of it as an intention or like is good trying to signal to do something? How is that transmitted to human drivers so that they can communicate?
And he was a little bit of the opinion that like they can't really this is this is a problem and so we should separate the two. I'm not sure that I fully agree with that. What is your, what is your thought on that in general? Yeah, for me it seems like the infrastructure to support these two different types. Like it might be the case that by the time and this is really
futuristic. All I'm talking but like by the time you create these, these two different Lanes in the throughout the entire world, like there aren't going to be any human dry fruits that are even worse. Like it's secretive like I don't know, not anticipating a future of all driverless cars and I'm not sure like I'm kind of learned to try not to predict the future, but I definitely have believed at a time in my life that, you know, we just
wouldn't need to drive anymore. Humans are just not very good at driving. Yeah, I think that the more that we can take these, you know, 2-ton machines out of their hands and give them to something. Capable then I'm pretty pretty big fan of that.
Yeah, I think I like one of the main things that I've been thinking about since this recording of the episode is just idea of in general development of autonomous driving being something where initially, you know, it was said that, okay, this is going to happen in the next. I don't know, few years 5 years, I don't know. And then time goes by and kind of the initial low hanging fruits. It's that kind of create a lot of progress and it was converted into kind of like these really
complex hard to solve problems. That kind of yeah use were under estimating like how complex they are.
And this feels like a good example of as well in terms of like thinking about something where if in driving Lanes you know if it's going to be one more autonomous vehicles, 14 not, is there going to be some form of like overarching kind of connected governmental regulated System that kind of also needs to protect autonomous vehicles from the non autonomous vehicles in some way so that non-autonomous have some form of like override the government can not block.
So the, I don't know, it seems like a lot of these are complex things that could come up along the way of making that happen. But I'm with you like I think it will be Cool in general. But also like it does make sense. And from many many reasons it's also like we gotta get to a point where we're kind of used in a kind of pods in a way that are like public transport but used in our own kind of tram card or something. Yeah. I just think of all the all the physical infrastructure that
would need to be built for that. And I look at the the road outside of my house that hasn't been replaced in like 25 years like you're right. How is that work? Yeah no I think that's one of those things like it just it just seems quite far off but I thought one interesting thing to kind of discuss around you know generally this topic but also the behavioural science side of driving and so on is related to an article that and a cigar All essay written by brilliant
person. Which is you and oh boy. Okay, where are we going with this? Yeah, I do. Just trying to give her compliments and be be nice, but it was really nice article was published. I think in 2018, for evil scientist's. So, yes, some, this is a ages ago. I have not lost my enthusiasm for the topic of attention. But you said what you're referring to The real reason you shouldn't text while driving which is which is something I wrote a while back for
Behavioral scientists. And what did you want to talk about texting while driving? I think I wanted to talk about texting while driving because people often frame texting while driving as one of these sort of like a major flaws in human behavior and it kind of just bothered me that no one talks about King. Well, drag really distracted driving talking while driving like like, it doesn't to me capture the or of what's really going on like why texting while
driving is a problem. And I don't think it's bad to like talk about why texting while driving is problematic. I just think there's so much more to the topic that I wanted to share. And so that's like it all goes down to attention and anything that takes away from are extremely Limited. Acity for attending to, you know one thing at a time really is really like setting you up for a disaster and so I don't know. Did you want?
Did you have anything in particular, you wanted to talk about what the, what the article? Yeah. And I think this it touches upon a lot of interesting things I think from my side of, you know, working a lot with habits. I think it's a fascinating case study of how habits can transform.
Our lives in a way where we can go from being these like, very awkward people in the car for the first time, trying to kind of, especially I learn with like a shift steering like, with not automatic but manual, but even with manual or sorry at matok, a lot of people feel very awkward in the car. A do a lot of false starts and suddenly couple of months later or you know, after having driven for a while getting their
license. Not only drive, but they listened to the podcast and text all the time plus all of a sudden. Yeah. And it's obviously very problematic from like the point of attention, but it's also fascinating that through our mind we can kind of get that level of automaticity. The thing that's really interesting but and how successful we are the vast majority of the time when nothing goes wrong. That is also amazing.
Yeah. And part of the problem, I guess in that like, We talked about before the podcast that we can like, then if this false sense of risk, they were like, you know? Yeah, it's not okay, Iris. Yeah. You each time you text while driving and nothing bad happens. You sort of update your probability of a crash is like well that's a bad maybe like I thought it was a you know two percent chance. Maybe there's a chance and then the next time you do it maybe.
And and each time you do you think oh like that's not gonna happen to me like look how look how good I am. Texting while driving. Yeah. So think that there's that there's also the sort of general overconfidence and believing that you're immune to the thing to like the risks that can. But other people fall prey to and like, whatever study, I think this is something that's been replicated over and over again, we're you ask people like how like a good of a driver are you?
And everyone is way above average, that's not possible. Yeah, so there's that. But Then it's also just like the, I think going back to the, to the development of this habit. And the mindlessness is that it just doesn't feel dangerous. You feel like it's fine because it's easy to do and you have that practice over time. But of course it's not, it's not the case because you're just not able to react when your attention is divided in such a
way. You know, you don't actually see that, there's someone crossing the street when you're not looking and not attending more importantly. Yeah, I guess. Two things quickly. Are you above average driver? I'm way below him. Oh no, I'm not in my bag, actually. I'm quite a good driver. I'm a very bad Parker.
Very better parking. I've only driven most of my life, tiny cars, I had a Volkswagen Beetle and that I had a Fiat and so I really am only able to navigate have a lot of extra kind of Wiggle. Room. Yeah. Yeah. So what? I drive a normal like I recently a year ago got but a actually, an autonomous vehicle and it is much much much larger than my tiny cars and so I have I really struggle with the parking aspect of that. Every time I try not to drive, if I'm okay, well maybe then you
don't have this problem. But in talking about overconfidence do you see any good interventions for And of managing overconfidence or like how would you go about supporting people in maybe, taking less risks, or being better at dividing their attention? Yeah. When driving, I think, any version of a commitment device in this case is the right one and that's not relying on yourself to make a good decision in the moment because it's just too tempting.
I think we have to recognize that it's too tight. Thing, when you get a text, like it's irresistible, like, if your phone is, there you are going to look at it. And one feature that I really hate that comes along with some newer Vehicles. Like, the one I mentioned is it actually shows up on the screen you're like, it's integrated with your phone. It's like, no, no, that's not the right thing to do. It's not better to bring my texts right in front of me. Like this is absolutely the
wrong design decision. But yeah, it's so that, you know, there's different versions of Do Not Disturb where you can kind of set your On to not let you know while you're driving. And I like that you can sort of automatically detect that that's happening. Of course, there's a stronger intervention, you know? Because you can, of course override this right. You can pick up your phone anytime you want. If something comes to mind, you
need to tell someone something. So, I think like, if you're, you know, really doing it, right? You can, you can take an even stronger approach and physically put your phone elsewhere so that you can't reach it while you're driving. Saying that's the, put your phone in the trunk approach and I think that's going to be much more effective. It is inconvenient if you need your phone for mostly sun or yeah. What if something bad happens like if you need something bad happens?
Yeah. But like how often does that how often do you actually need your phone? Yeah it's a good a good one. Probably know he's thought about like all the worst case. Scenarios that yeah well
exactly. But if you take your like your actual average like probably the benefits of not having your phone override, The cons of like oh you got into an accident and you can't reach it. Yeah I haven't made this connection before but it just seems very very similar to the discussion about like how do we stop using our phones as much in general, in terms of put them on black and white screen or whatever? Great grace grayscale. And like all of these things to kind of get people to.
That's a use social media less, oftentimes adds a burden on them to kind of go into this part of the setting then go here and then you go to accessibility and then In. There you go, in, like how many people is actually going on? Friction. A lot of friction and I guess here it is. Interesting that I guess. Yeah. Car manufacturers are incentivized to kind of cater to people's. Yeah. Want to make it easier for that.
Mike do you want to take calls and texts listen to music and same time will do that for you, you know? Yeah, I feel like the paternalistic approach is much more palatable when it comes to driving and safety. Whereas, if it's like your well-being, like, if someone were to That you're doomed scrolling and say like this is not good for you. Like yeah, I feel like people might not react and white the quite as favorable of away. Yeah, no. For sure, for sure.
So I used to, like, given all of these, all of the problems with How bad humans are at, hang it at attention, and like, how, how we tend to divide our attention through all sorts of things eating while driving talking while driving texting while driving calling it. So on, you know, even just listening to music has a as a like non zero impact on your likelihood to get into an accident like a given, all of
these things. I was in the past extremely gung-ho on autonomous vehicles and like getting to that. World where we don't have to worry about humans because humans suck be driving. I'm less gung-ho now and part of it, I think is my emotional reaction. So part of it is about my emotional reaction to having one of these cars and seeing see it fail in kind of serious situations where I've had to take over and like the fear that comes with that. So that makes me really a lot
less optimistic. And the other thing is, I think the as I sort of I'm in the midst of we're in the midst of this AI Revolution, right? And I think that one of the sort of lessons that I come to believe, at least for the time being and it seems like there's more and more evidence to support. This is just that automation seems to be at least with the technology that we have now and the problems in the the environmental problems in the world that the physical environment.
It feels like automation is better suited to these creative generative tasks. So you think if you're Like chat, gbt and your mid tourney and like making things, it's better suited to that than the sort of manual mechanical tasks. You see robots, really kind of having a hard time, and that's true and self-driving cars. That's true. And I mean, there's obviously some exceptions of really cool things, but those are in very constrained environments, right?
It's not like you see in the, the robots running around in the in the street being humans Andreas I guess, right, word. I think there's a great tag and that's really good tag and actually something strongly since we recorded in a one of the things we touch upon in the in the session with the idea of, you know, when you have a car in this case that supports you in some capacity and you kind of become trained to let go of certain things because you can have like, don't think you need
it anymore. The one thing we talked about was the idea of like, if if you have cars that are able to, for example, when you're on the highway you use the self driving feature but anyone go off the highway you oftentimes have to disable that or you may be disabled it but then forget to
you, this is which uh-huh. Yeah and since we recorded actually mentioned this to a friend who then told me that this happened to his dad, where he had gone back from the airport with a car that he was a little bit tired, he had been flying and he was on the highway. Self-driving, turn off the highway, it turned off still driving but they never really fully click in in kind of his automaticity for the part of his behavior and so he drove straight off the road. No crash the car.
Luckily was not harmed severely, ER, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Gaelic relatively unscathed but still like that was hundreds and just because I recent that in his like he had turned off self-driving. But in his mind or in his body whatever you call it it was still this kind of a kind of learned response that okay I'm gonna lie let the car turn from you now and as your car. Yeah don't trust the car.
Let's go. And the second thing I noticed myself is I mentioned you know I'd be using these kind of quite new Volvo electronic cars and obviously they have like this really fancy parking things they tell you like not You know, with an occasion of this island, but also, you have like, a Bad Karma. You sometimes have like some for like over, like are camera. I don't know how they do that with some form of a algorithm. You can like see the car from above and you see exactly where you going.
Oh yeah. And so, that's really awesome and I really enjoy that. Then I was driving, my mom's car who's in a driving, this really kind of nice, but a little Bolder vault. Ford or something. And I was really close to just ramming into a wall parking because I was just waiting for that, kind of Eep, Eep, Eep, Eep, Eep, ha ha. And yeah again you know just trusting the car to the parking for me.
Yeah. Yeah. You if you don't ya you lose those skills and when you do when you just personally quickly, like so quickly, I don't know. Yeah, well I mean that that been sort of goes back to an argument for like move towards fully autonomous. It's like every car is self-driving, right? Yeah I think if the technology in represent really like that kind of nothing. I am. Yeah. Okay. With it. If we could actually get their technology wise, I think that.
Yeah, humans are just not good drivers. We shouldn't really be driving. Yeah. But would you say that like in the current state of things, if we removed the current You know, bells and whistles. In this regard, I would predict that they will be more rear-ending because people are now texting and driving at all
this stuff. And one of the few things that actually prevent someone who's texting and driving from rear-ending, someone is that their car is kind of like almost breaking it for them or alarming, kind of regularly, at least in my car, flashing, a blue light if you're not looking Straight ahead. So if you're if you have it on dry, the car is driving mode, then it's really making sure
that you're paying attention. So it's so it's kind of an interesting side effect of like you're putting it on self-driving, but you actually have to pay almost more attention, like, at least, visually with your, your eyes in that mode. Then normally, when no one's monitoring your behavior, the avoid touching you It is interesting that part actually because we're the some queries you can use kind of like just touch the finger on the steering wheel and that reads those can like okay.
You have your hands on the wheel. Yeah, yeah. And you see some people would like one hand on their phone and then one finger on the steering wheel and that's obviously shitty accountability. But to your point, like if the car is able to read, you know, not only what your kind of doing with your hands in terms of like holding The wheel well, but also what we're looking, you know, maybe then you're safer conditions. I don't know what you think. Yeah.
I'm looking forward to the day that we all just roll around and spaceship, sort of Fifth Element style. Yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to any day now. Yeah. What do you think about? Like so I was kind of making lists of different vehicles and thinking about it to what degree they're autonomous these days.
And one of the things that was thinking of was like, oh, I never want this to be autonomous was airplanes been realizing that, of course, there are, they are mostly autonomously space. As far as I know the pilot mainly kind of You know, obviously, is there to set Direction and review things, but is there to kind of hold when landing? And when kind of taking off, would you want to have me?
That kind of car of like you have, like one task with the car or you would use one to have like, no tasks, like just, you know, do it all for me. I think if it can do it all. Well, I think that's better than having to do some parts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to hang out at the jacuzzi. Drinking, champagne. In the back of the The car while the car is driving, I don't want to have to like both be a driver and the contract like this hand off that responsibility, that's what I want.
Like my ideal. Okay, so we'll end up. So now with two predictions I'll let you make prediction on autonomous vehicles. When will we see fully autonomous cities? When we'll see that in the u.s. you went with when not if fully Thomas. Get like a long time. Long time. I hesitated you. I told you. I'm not making predictions. Here, you are. Forcing, I do not. Come on. It's 2023. Everything happens faster than you'd think like not before 20. Ash.
I'm going to say 2050 and I still am not sure I said, right actually - well. Yeah, I am not really sure though. That's probably, that's okay. 150 gate. My prediction will be Be unrelated to. Autonomous vehicles will be about succession. So when we recording this episode it's I guess a few days before the final finale of the show of the season for and of the show as a whole.
And so if you're listening to this it's already come out by the time, this airs, if you haven't listened to episode 9, I guess. I will say this could be a little bit of a spoiler, my prediction. So, you know warning, but my prediction for the finale of succession is Greg, Greg is going to take the throne, he's going to be madsen's American CEO. So I'm going with the My prediction.
I don't know if this makes sense to you in any way Eileen, but but that's, that's where I think it's gonna be the sister. I think the sisters just, you know. Okay. So if I just add that I've never seen succession. Okay. We'll see. But this was fun. Really fun episode. Thank you, Ellen for another funded type. Yeah, yeah, it was great. Yeah. And as always, if you have any input your questions for us, Hope cast that have a weekly that Cam, see you next Wednesday.
Time to wrap up another episode of the behavioral design podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Oh, and I am an AI. Yeah, welcome to uncanny valley Sam. And Elaine told me this is going to be an awesome season, so make sure to subscribe and help spread the word maybe share the podcast with a colleague or
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