Widows with Michael-Michelle Pratt

sort of like finish their unfinished podcast business. Right, we're finishing their podcast. We're finishing their last podcast episode there, and we have some people after us that if we don't finish their podcast, they're gonna kill us. Sophie. If we don't finish the podcast, she finds us and she hunts us. But if we do successfully finish it, we're going to be so rich. Oh well, obviously all podcasters are extremely rich. Well, I feel pretty good about that intro.

I feel I thank you. I hope that I hope everyone had a great time listening to it, because I had a great time participating. Yeah, you're welcome, everybody. Hello, and welcome to very diplomatic Welcome to the Bechdel coust My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus, And this is our podcast about ruining movies that you previously really enjoyed using an intersectional feminist lance, or in

some cases, celebrating pretty good movies. That's true. I guess that that would have been a more appropriate setup for this particular episode. But yeah, this is uh, this is this is our damn podcast. You know, if you're if you're just getting here, welcome, if you've been here for a while, kick your feet up, baby, get comfortable. Because

it's the Widows episode. We've gotten a lot of requests for I feel like we've been getting requests for this episode since the movie came out almost three years ago now, so it's been a long time coming and I'm so excited to cover it. Same but hold on, what is our podcast? Oh gee whiz. It's an examination of film through an intersectional feminist lens, right where we use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate

a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test, of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test that requires our variation on the test is that two people of any marginalized gender have to have names, they must speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man. Ideally it is a meaningful, plot relevant conversation, but if it's a two line exchange, we will consider it.

We go case by case. I don't think it's a huge issue for this particular movie, but we've we've had to really get in the weeds in the past, Caitlin. I was realizing the other day that we've been on this podcast longer than we were in high school. WHOA how wild? And I feel like I've learned way more same. So we're like I did in high school. We're like super seniors because this is our fifth year of doing the podcast. Yeah, with no end in sight, we're never

going to graduate. Uh fine, by me, Let's get our guests in here, shall we. Let's do it. She is a freelance journalist. She's had work published in Harper's Bazaar. She's also a film student and aspiring filmmaker. It's Michael Michelle Pratt. Hello and welcome, holcome, Hi, thank you for having me. Know I'm a huge fan, and I'm really excited h to be here, and I like, I love this movie. So I'm very excited. We're so happy to have you. We're so psyched. Uh So we're covering Widows.

It's a movie directed by Steve McQueen, screenplay by Steve McQueen and Jillian's God damn it, I am a misogynist, which is why I didn't double check her name before. But either way, uh so, so Michael Michelle to get stuff started. What is your history with this movie? Yeah, so I wanted to go see in theaters. Uh. I think it might have been I don't know it was

the opening weekend or the weekend after opening weekend. By I thought with my mom, Um, I I like, I like, I really like the late night shoving because I love the trailer. Um, I think why all Davis is just you know her existence, I just all the reformances if for everything, I love her. Um, I'm not a huge told me to Slafe you have, but I love everything else take me. I think he's also really brilliant. Um. And so I was just like I was like really psyched for this and so I love the trailer and

when to go see it? Um and then it was really mad. It was like me and my mom and like one one other guy in the corner. I was like, this is oh no one else was there. No, it was like three of us just at this like awkwards like eleven Black Night screening, and I was like, wow, okay. I was like, I was like, what did your mom think? So she she liked it, but she didn't like the ending because she my mom hated like in being its endings.

And I was like, that's the fun of it because they're like maybe they've become friends who don't know and they've been like this whole this really tumultuous, traumatic future, but they're kind a friend and it's cool and I love it being the new films. That's like my thing. But she was like, but she was like I wanted like more closure of but that wasn't the point. But fine. I was like you. I was like, you know, fine, but yeah, she wouldn't and she wasn't really a fan

of the of the ending. But other than that, I think I think she liked this. Yeah, nice Jamie, what about you what's your relationship with the movie. Not too much. I had seen it. I think I hadn't. I hadn't seen it until Quarantine last year, but I had a copy of it at my house. My my boyfriend's a huge fan of this movie. He seen it like ten times. It's like one of his comfort movies or even though it's like not even that old of a movie, so he was like, you're going to sit down with me

and watch it. Not very comforting either, No, it's kind of stressful, but I have I don't know, I feel like everyone has a stressful comfort movie where it's like I can't exactly put my finger on why this would bring me peace, but for some reason it does. I mean, Titanic is definitely one of my comfort movies and also not comforting at all and bodies are hitting the floor the whole time. Um, but yes, I I just saw it last year and now I think I've seen it

three times. And it's so it's already so interesting where this movie is three years old, but I feel like already having a little bit of distance from it. It's really interesting to watch back because this was like immediately after the Me Too movement started. Movie and I feel like that is very present and how it was marketed and already just with a couple of years of distance from it. I really enjoyed the movie. It's like such a blast. The cast is like, I can't think of

a more fun cast for a movie. And yeah, I don't know, I feel like there's so much to talk about. It's uh, it's it's a goddamn romp. Uh. What about you, Caitlin, what's your history with this? I didn't see it in theaters, but I saw it a few months later. You know, I remember there being quite a bit of buzz about it, and it won some awards, I think some BAFTA's, I believe. Um so I this is a very British movie for

a movie that takes place in Chicago. I did not know Steve McQueen was English until I really started reading some stuff about him. Yeah. I don't know how I missed that detail, but I did make the kind of stray observation that there are a lot of British and Irish actors in this movie playing Americans, between Colin Farrell, Liam Neeson and Daniel Coloya. Yeah, like, once you know Steve McQueen is from the UK. You're like, oh, yeah, that's why half of this cast is very much not

from Chicago. Yeah. Um so, anyway, I saw the movie. I love a good heist movie, and Cynthia Arriva too is British, I believe. Sorry, oh she Okay, I got it. But yeah, I thought it was a really well crafted movie and I was excited to watch it again and to discuss it right here on this EPISODEEP. Should we get into the recamp, let's do it. Okay. So the movie begins with a robbery that is taking place by a team of four men. We also cut to like quick glimpses of their home lives and we see them

with their wives, their wives, their wives. The ringleader is Harry Rawlings. That's Liam Neeson. He is married to Veronica Rawlings that is Viola Davis. The other other wives are This is gonna be very hard for me to not constantly do this. I mean that's literally the premise of the movie. Like, I've their wives their dead husband's exactly every first seconds, just they have to remind they're dead, right.

Uh So the other wives are Linda that's Michelle Rodriguez, Alice that's Elizabeth DEBICKI, and I think of her as Mrs Tennant. That's the only other thing I know her from. She's really tall. She's really tall, and she was in Tennant. I did not realize that was her, Yes, Tenant. I mean, I feel like I blacked it all out, but she was definitely in it. Good to know. I didn't see that. How did that turn out? I know? Assaulted? How did

that know? How did that go? I don't know. I feel like I would have had more fun if, like if they had just like held onto it and released it when people could go to theaters. But because it was like I watched it at a drive in and I had no idea what was happening. And I tried to watch it on streaming and I was like, I still have no idea, Like, I don't know. I saw

it in the comfort of my own home. Granted it was in the middle of the night and I was tired and falling asleep, but I didn't follow the story at all. I think the world building is really confusing and like not set up very well. But again, it could have been that I was asleep, if hard Christopher Nolan, Okay, here's my here's my hot take if Christopher Nolan is so interested in time, why he has he wasted so

much of mine? And then imagine me dunking a basketball and then not not just dropping a microphone, but like throwing it across the room. The microphone explodes. Um, okay, so we've met the other wife, so it's Linda Ellis and then Amanda, also played by Carry Coon. Then we see the robbery go all wrong. The men are shot and killed and also exploded by cops. Yeah. I kind of appreciated that they triple killed the guy. I was like, Okay, so there's or at least I thought spoiler ahead, but

I was like, Wow, these guys are super dead. They couldn't be deader just and they keep saying over and over like they're just ye, just shot everywhere, just they were on the ground. They keep reiterating to let you know, like they're super dead, like they have to keep reiterating it could not be less alive, to the point that like later later when it's like the the big Gillian Flynn style to whist comes up, you're kind of like, oh, I guess that they like almost lay it on too

thick that they're super dead. You're like, oh, okay, I fell for I totally fell for it. The first time I saw this movie, I did not see the twist coming at all. There Oh, no, me neither. I was like what I was, I can't excuse me. I was like, I was in the doorway. What right? Yeah, it was a it was a solid twist. I feel like there's so many twists, are so easy to predict. But gone girl got us, Baby, she got us again, Gone girl,

Gillian gets us again. Wow, the alliteration is astounding, incredible. Headline. Okay, so the men are shot and killed and exploded, meaning the wives are now widows. That's the name of the movie. Okay. Then we meet Jack Mulligan that's Colin Farrell, and we meet Jamal Manning that's Brian Tyree Henry. They are both politicians running for alderman of Chicago's eighteenth ward. I had to look up what that was, and now I know it's basically like a city council member. Right. Yeah, I

never I never figured out with the actual office. What's Every time I watched it, I'm like, you know, it's some kind of political thing. I don't know exactly, but I'm just gonna I'm just like, something this up. You know, there's some kind of office going on. I had to read that elsewhere. I did not figure this out on my own. I kind of wish they told you in the movie because it's like, yeah, because it's not clear.

It is just like a city council and position. I felt so I when I realized that both of their initials were j M, I was like, oh, wow, makes you think I got really excited. What does it mean? I don't know, but I was just like that has to be on purpose, right, Yeah, not not sure. So they're running for Chicago's eighteenth Ward, which is a predominantly low income black neighborhood. Jack is trying to get Jamal

to drop out of the race, but he refuses. We also meet Jamal's brother, Ja Tem that's Daniel Coloya, and we at some point around this time also meet Jack Mulligan's father, Tom Mulligan, who is a career politician, full on evil Robert. So we meet these politicians and then some of their family. Right, So the Mulligan's are this almost like Chicago Kennedy's, like just clinging to power but

don't actually care about anybody. Sort of family and then Jamal is kind of like a I heard Steve McQueen in an interview be like he's my Michael Corleone, and I was like, oh, that kind of does make sense. Like he's he's like a Godfather style guy, and it's like the I don't know, Daniel Klliya, it seems like is having so much fun in this movie, Like he's having a blast his care he's scary. Yeah, yeah, what's

he made to be? He's so scart, He's so scart with such little dialogue and it's all like the Pasha and the shoulders and and you're so frightened. But when he's doing all of his in commanding such space and was staying that's a little I'm just every time I watched, I'm like, but and you can tell he's enjoying all of it, and it's just it's a great performance. And

he's such a talented actor. He's so good and it's so fun to watch actors having fun, especially in sequences like I mean, so many of his sequences are and like mob movies are like has never really been my genre. But it's like when someone is like, you know, Daniel Khalia comes in the room. You're like, oh, he's going to kill someone in a way that's really interesting to watch,

and it keeps happening. It's oh my god when he kills the guy, and then he watches football when he kills the guy while he's singing You're wild love it um okay. So then we learn that the botched robbery that we saw was Harry Rawlings and his team stealing two million dollars from Jamal Manning, and that that money burnt up in the explosion. Then we cut back to the wives, the widows of the robbers morning their late husbands. We meet Bash, that's Harry's driver. He gives Veronica a

key to a safety deposit box. This is something that Harry wanted her to have if anything ever happened to him. Then Jamal approaches Veronica. He knows that her husband stole from him and he wants the two million dollars back. He says that she has a month to liquidate her assets and get that money to him. We've also, by this point seen Jetam murder a couple of people, so we know that these guys mean business and that the

stakes are very high for Veronica. She then goes to the safety deposit box and inside is a notebook that details Harry's next job, a five million dollar robbery. Um So then Veronica contact the other widows. She has the idea to work with them to pull off this five million dollar heist so that she can take some of that money and pay Jamal back and then they will split the rest. So Linda and Alice show up, but the other widow, Amanda, does not, so Veronica convinces Linda

and Alice to do this. It's established that they are both struggling financially after the death of their husband's right, they're not like as in immediate danger as Veronica. It doesn't seem like which was one of my story issues where I'm like, hmmm, if I were Michelle Rodriguez, i might say no, thank you, I'm not interested. But I was like the all time, I can't think. I was like, does that seem like as pressing for you? So I was like, I can't, Like if I could like not that,

I'd be like, you know, good financial security. I feel like that like that is enough to like get you into the premise and all of that. But but yeah, as the movie was going on, and it was like Oh my god, all these women cut Like. I know that they're not going to die because movie, but like the stakes are extremely high for what kind of is Like Michelle Rodriguez is like, well, I don't want to say I didn't do this because feminism. I was like,

but then your kids wouldn't have a parent. She does have children, which you would think maybe she'd be like, I can't get into this very risky, dangerous heist because I might die. But I did buy that that she and Alice were motivated enough to do it because of their very precurious financial situation, So I don't know, know that makes sense. Yeah, So anyway, the three of them

get to work on planning the heist. They need guns, they need a van, They have a blueprint, but they don't know where this house is, so there's a lot that they have to acquire and figure out. So they get to work on that. Meanwhile, the Manning's intimidate some people that Veronica knows, basically trying to figure out what she's up to. They kill bash her driver. So now they have to find the football murder scene. That's a football murder scene. I think that was my favorite. Daniel

Kolea can't be murder scene. I have a like a whole kind of spiel about that, which we'll get to. But um, yeah, interesting choices were made. Um. But the bottom line is that they now have to find a new getaway driver, which, um, Jamie you pointed out it's Michelle Rodriguez. Yeah, so take it away. I was laughing my head off when Michelle Rodriguez enters the scene and

she's like, we need a new driver. I was like, speaking of people who would know a thing or two about driving, Mrs Fast and Furious, I was, And then they have her character. I feel like they like that had to have been intentional that whenever someone is like we need a driver, it's only Michelle Rodriguez being like we needed drivers and cars. I'm like, yeah, exactly. We love an Internet to neverdic universe. She is car Cannon. They need a crossover film to bring these two worlds together.

The Widows would fit right in in the Fast and Furious Expanded Universe. I feel I think Rodriguez Universe, Yeah, that could be a thing. Okay, So then we get a reveal that Harry Rawlings is still alive. He had faked his death and it turns out that he's been having an affair with Amanda, the widow who hasn't been showing up, and he is sticking around for now to I think, take the money that Veronica is planning to

steal that? What's that? I think? So that was a little camp like where there were that twist was I was very impressed with the twist. I just didn't see it coming. But then I was like, wait a second, huh where like Jack Mulligan is involved there on a boat, Carrie Coon's involved, You're like, wait a second, what's the end goal here? And then and then it didn't really become story relevant. I was like at first when I

was like okay, I was like I was surprised. But then they after the boat and I was like, how no one so no one's aware of this? How is how was he able to get him just? I was like, that was right. I was like, this is a little distant now. Yeah, I also am unclear about So the initial job that goes wrong is them stealing from Jamal Manning like on behalf of Jack Mulligan, But then Harry's next job was stealing from Jack Mulligan on behalf of

someone I don't know. Yeah, I feel like Harry. Harry doesn't vote, Like I feel like he doesn't care who wins or who loses. But yeah, like I don't know. Maybe a listener will like point something out and there's something very clear that I wasn't seeing, but involving the politicians. On top of like that, I just felt like a hat on top of a hat, and I got confused. And then again it's like, all I guess technically, all you really need to know is that Harry is alive

and he was cheating on Veronica. But it was, Yeah, it was a little confusing. We also get a flashback where we learn about Harry and Veronica's son Marcus, and we learned that he was pulled over and then shot to death by cops. We cut back to the President. The widows figure out where the blueprints are four a K the house that they plan to break into, and it turns out to be Jack Mulligan's house. Then Linda A. K. Michelle Rodriguez, She's like, we need a driver, and then

she finds a driver. Well, I mean, who else is gonna do it? In Diesel, He's not in the movie. She recruits her babysitter Belle played by Cynthia Arrivo to be their getaway driver, and she and Veronica scope out Jack's house. Um. They do a little reconnaissance type stuff. Then it is time for the heist. Is the same night as the debate between Jack Mulligan and Jamal Manning. The women get to the house, they make their way in, they grabbed the five million dollars. Tom Mulligan a k.

Robert Duval tries to stop them. They shoot him and kill him in a death that no one has ever cared about less than the entire right. We're like, good ridden, You're like I was okay, Yeah, You're like, you raise this piece of ship. It's just a fringe benefit to this highest is that we killed the worst characters. Yeah. She's like, oh yeah, by um. So they kill him,

but then Alice gets shot in the process. They have to kind of scramble to get away to tem hijacks their van as they're getting away, but then they follow him in another vehicle they crashed into him. They get the money back and it seems like they've successfully pulled off the heist. They drop Alice off at the er and then Veronica goes back to like whatever garage warehouse

place is their rendezvous point. But who shows up but Harry Rawlings and he's there to take the money she stole, and she's like, you fucking bastard, and he's about to shoot her, but she shoots and kills him first. Great moment. Yeah, and then we tie up some loose ends with Belle and Linda, and then the movie ends with Veronica running into Alice, who survived her gunshot. It's implied that it's several weeks or months later. They share a little moment

where Veronica is like, how are you doing? Cinema? And also Alice has learned to drive at that point, because we learned earlier in the movie that she didn't know how to drive, But then we see her getting into the driver's seat of a car, so it's like, I guess Alice learned to drive. Good for her full arc of an amazing arc. That's the story. So let's take a quick break and then we will come right back

to discuss. And we're back. Where shall we start. I kind of want to get I'm tempted to get the stuff that we didn't like out of the way first, or the more critical elements and then we can kind of move into the stuff that was fine. Can I start, yes, please go ahead, I have a gripe. I think it's

the second act where Michelarity gets character of Linda. She's she's going she's going to go and she's kind of um, she's going to go visit the man to go to go steal the the prince kind of she's so she's pretending basically, UMA know this man's wife, and then he kind of and then he kind of figured out that that she doesn't um, and then she kind of reveals, you know, that she has lost her husband. And then they like odd they like to make out, and I

was like, how did this? This isn't really this is an advanced in the plot. I don't I first said. I was like, I was like, oh, she's doing this like fake him out to get the blueprint. But then I realized, wait, or is it like phase value? And they just like awkwardly made out, and then it kind of seen out of character because I was like, what did she do that? And I was like and I was like, how I just didn't do anything going forward? So we're just sitting here and this is awkward and

I was like, this is always so time. I almost forgot that that even happened. Yeah, that was an interesting moment that I felt like that could have been something more exploratory of like grief and all this other stuff, but then it just kind of ended up being confusing and like whatever. It's it's not like people don't trauma bond over certain life events and things get weird sometimes

like that definitely happens. I'm not opposed to seeing that in a movie, but you're totally right, Michael Mitchelle where it's like it didn't advance the plot at all, and then it to me kind of came off as like they were just having Michelle Rodriguez's character like use her

like womanly Wiles so like advance the plot. And I don't know, I feel like, yeah, there there were I feel like there were better options there on how to or it's like if you're going to make that choice, then like like you're saying, like, have it have more consequence and actually explore it versus like just this very bizarre I mean, it's like it didn't even come up in the summary because it's so kind of like that could have end on point, could have happened in so

many different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Every time I've seen this movie, my reaction is always like huh, because then I expected seemed to keep going a little bit and then for him to be like, okay, here, I'll we kissed, so I'll help you out, which also I guess that would have weird implications to probably be kind of lazy too, Yeah, kind of just bizarre. Yeah, so I guess I'm more find that it cut well narratively. It's weird that it

doesn't go anywhere. But if it was that she was like, well, I'm going to seduce, like basically exploit the grief I feel about my husband to manipulate and seduce this man, like that would also have been weird and probably not great. It's like who among us hasn't made out with a Rando when they were sad about something. But it was just like the way it was introduced was like, yeah, I felt that say way, Kaitlin, where you're like huh, but then it never comes back, so I don't know shrug.

One thing that stuck out to me. I had a few things with this movie that felt just I don't know, and it's like it is nippicky because over all the movies super enjoyable. I'm so glad, like I will absolutely

be watching it again. Um. In terms of like the the political side of it, there were some parts of the Jack Mulligan jamal Man in conflict that I thought were like so well executed and so well done, and a lot of it was like in the photography where there's that amazing shot where you're watching Jack Mulligan leave the eighteenth District and drive to his fucking McMansion talking about how little he cares, Like that's so that's brilliant, Like that might be that might be my favorite team

in the movie. I think it's that tracking shot and you can't see them and you're just hearing the dialogue as they're moving forward. I just I was like, it's brilliant. Yeah, And it's like once you realize where that's going, it's amazing. And it's like, so you know, obviously like such so unfortunately something that happens in local like in local and national politics constantly, and I thought it was so well executed.

I guess the thing that I that kind of chafed me with that plotline was I appreciate and I totally like how the movie and the script really gets into this whatever Kennedy asked, Chicago family that are just like these rich white guy that are clinging onto power. And I mean the Robert Duval character in some ways is like a cartoonist example of of the like extreme lengths that these kind of legacy white families what they'll do

to hold onto power. And I wish that we got that same amount of attention to detail with the Mannings, because I feel like we got a lot of information

about the Mulligan's. I felt like you really understood what the movie was trying to say about that, like that kind of political dynasty, and I wish that there was because we spend a lot of time with Jamal Manning and with is to Tim to time, I think I just kept being like dlue, yeah, but but but with with those brothers, But I feel like you don't find

out as much about them as you do. Like I felt like I knew way more about the Mulligan's than I did about the Mannings, and I wish that that had been more of and even handed plotline because I loved I mean, I'm very interested in your thoughts on the the murder scenes that kind of are taken out because at first I wasn't sure where to fall in it, and I went to watch just some interviews with Steve McQueen to see like what his kind of motivation was

with those, and once it became clear that he's like, oh, I'm doing like these are Godfather, this is my Godfather scene, I was like, Okay, Like once I made that connection, it made more sense to me. But I still feel like, you know, with The Godfather, you know a shipload about that family, and so it's like when those murder scenes take place, you thoroughly know who those characters are, what their motivations are, and then you see something really fucked up,

and I feel like the Mannings didn't get that. I don't know what what what did y'all think? I felt like a lot of the impact of that it's a lot has a lot to do with with Daniel's performance, but but it's not necessarily because of the writing, and so I don't feel like I feel I feel like it could have been more impactful if, like you said, if you knew, if he knew about their motives, and I thought about I feel like after the first scene,

after we first meet him. When he first meeting Um character, you don't he kind of said a little bit beforehand, after him Indiana's character Kum talking about his motivation to kind out front, But after that, you don't really see or hear a lot about about how about how he's kind of feeling at the works, prograssing really or really like anything about his back story. And so I was I was like, visually, that's great, but I don't feel as connectical as I could if I knew why that's

what's happening totally. Yeah. There's a scene pretty early on between the two brothers where jattem which, by the way, there's a funny joke, where isn't that like French for I love you? Yeah? I guess it would be more pronounced like Tim. But that's what that's what Jack Mulligan thinks Jatima is saying when he's introducing himself, because then

he says, I love you too. I didn't even pick up on that, And then Daniel Killerya is just like what but um, anyway, j Tim is talking to his brother and he's like, why do you even want to get into politics? And then Jamal sites, well, yeah, I mean, an alderman makes whatever salary per year and a times like, well we make that in a week, implied that like they're kind of like criminal activity was way more lucrative.

And then he's saying, well, yeah, but you stand to make a lot more money with different contracts and you know, like building developments and blah blah blah this stuff. And when that happens, people come after you with cameras and microphones versus before when when we were doing what we were doing, people were coming after us with guns and I'm thirty seven, Like, I don't want that life anymore.

So it's established that part of Jamala's motivation is he kind of like wants to quote unquote straighten out um or like you know, live a more virtuous life, I guess, which is hilarious to think of as a politician. Um right, if you're like, yeah, sure, the city council really doing the good work, right, but um, I mean, and that's like really interesting insight. And I wish we then got more information like that, But as far as I can remember, there wasn't much else in the way of that type

of characterization for the Mannings. No, And I was kind of surprised because it's like it is such a rich set up and I feel like, especially like Jamal and Jettam are such compelling characters and both played by fucking unbelievable actors, and then there's not enough backstory given to really like, I felt like, bring those characters to have the impact that they could have and should have. The other main gripe I had with this movie revolves around

the character of Bobby Welsh. He is the character who owns the Bowling Alley. He is a friend slash associate of Harry Rawlings. He seems to know about the like various robberies that he pulls off. The character uses a wheelchair, but the actor Kevin J O'Connor does not, So another example of a able bodied actor playing a disabled character. Just how disabled at it? Just they exist there there. It can't be a little struggle. I just why it's

not hard, couldn't be easier. They're out there. And then the other thing with this character is that we see him being brutalized in a way that is very specific to the character's disability because he is shoved out of his wheelchair. He is then stabbed in the legs several times by j Tem because ja Tem knows that he can't feel it because he's paralyzed from his waist down. It's a very long, drawn out scene, and I guess the function of the scene is to just show how

relentless and dangerous Jettem is. But we already know that because we've seen him a people He made yeah, I mean he was making those two guys freestyle and then killed the mid freestyle, like we know that he is d t K. He's down to kill. It felt unnecessarily long, and every time I watched it, I have to just give it. I'm like, I can't it just it feels unnecessarily cool, and I'm like, I'm not I'm not gonna sit here and I'm not gonna see her here, and

and watched this, I can't. Yeah, I can't do it totally. Especially it feels I think it might be a trope at this point in media, where a disabled character is very unnecessarily brutalized. And then I was foreshadowing this earlier, but the scene where Jamal comes in and like his guys kill bash. Compare this scene with the way that the Bobby Welsh character is brutalized to the Bash scene, because all the violence in the Bash getting killed scene

is implied off screen. It happens off screen because then you pan over to which attem watching football and you only like hear the violence but you don't see it. So like just that dichotomy of like we see a long scene of a character with a disability being brutalized versus in that very specific way, yes, yeah, versus the able bodied character that happens off screen, and that just

felt very unnecessary and gross and didn't like it. I think also if it felt like the attack for the diity of character felt felt very specific to that disability, and then and then to keep showing it over and over on camera, it felt like it's kind of taking away the dignity from the character as opposed to say, a body character and giving him the dignity. I'm not

having us watch it. I was just like that was really unnecessary, right, yeah, And I mean and it's even from I mean, I feel like the more you get into it is like, even from a story perspective, those two choices feel very pointed because you would think Bash is a character that we know much better, So the impact of seeing him get killed on screen would theoretically be greater than watching Bobby, a character we barely know, be brutalized for in a much longer scene, like you

were both saying, and so it does kind of come down to I don't know. I mean, it's I it's hard because it's like I don't want to come down hard on this movie. But like that choice, You're totally right. I mean it's it's very, very pointed, and it doesn't even make it. It makes no story sense. There's no there's no real argument for any of it to happen. Yeah, my last Okay, so this is kind of, I guess gets us into what we will probably be talking about a lot more, which is the Widows. So let's let's

get into Widows. I okay, I was genuinely I I read um, I watched the whole movie through, was taken my little notes and by the end of the movie. Let me know if I'm off here from being like overly picky, I felt like the widows did not know each other well enough. I was not like they weren't friends ever. And that is not really a Bechtel Cast

style criticism. I feel like it's more of a story criticism for me where I read a really good piece from a Vice writer named Amor Mercer who did kind of a comparative study between Widows and set it Off, a movie that we've covered on the show and is so good and it it's, you know, an all female highst It's it's incredible and is dealing with some I mean, it's definitely not a one to one comparison, but I

don't know. As I was just reading her kind of comparative essay between the two movies, I was like, oh, yeah, part of I mean, there's so many things that makes Set It Off a compelling movie to watch, but a lot of it is like the relationships between the women performing the highest and how their relationships grow and change over the movie. I felt like it's just like so well done and so when as things continue to happen,

you really feel it. And I didn't quite feel that kind of like connection between the widows where they're definitely like their relationships develop, but then there were some relationships that felt kind of forced to me or like they didn't totally make sense or I don't know, I just I this is maybe just like a personal taste thing but I'm like, I wish that I understood how they felt about each other a little more. It felt a little vague to me. No, I I feel the same

way in that. Yeah, I agree that one of the most compelling things about Set It Off is the relationship.

And honestly, any kind of like get the team together and pull law job kind of movie, you usually get a lot of tension and intrigue and theme and comic relief and a lot of the things that like make a story great from the relationship between the characters, and we obviously see them interact quite a bit, although there is an awful lot of screen time dedicated to like Jack Mulligan and other characters I don't care about and

I hate. But I was like, yeah, I would have liked to see more interaction between the widows and just more screen time dedicated to the way those relationships develop up.

And yeah, it felt like there was a lot of like I mean, and again it's like it's a romp, it's a movie, Like I get it, But but there was a lot of like, I feel like, the main thing you got out of them talking was kind of surface level class discussion, which is which is worthwhile and I'm glad that it happened, but it sort of just felt like some of the only interactions between certain pairs in the um in the Widows universe was like, oh, okay, so Alice and Linda they're both working class, and so

they're going to have a three line exchange about how they're working class and they feel like Veronica doesn't get it, and then you don't really get much more with those characters. They just sort of established, like we have this thing in common, but then it doesn't really I don't know, I just wish that like some of those issues got more explored, and it felt like some things were like stated but then not really followed through on. I don't know. I feel like I feel like a lot of the classes,

I feel like we're discussed more. What's the political storyline? I feel like Widows and I was like, oh, I thought it was interesting. I like to be able to handle both. But I was like, but the primary story is the Widow, so why not or why not have them converge more. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's like I mean, it's not like the characters that are established wouldn't be able to like very easily

have those conversation. But You're totally right. It's like we see Jack and Jamal have those discussions more in depth

than we see some of the widows have those. I totally agree with that, and I feel like there were I feel like we got to know Veronica and Alice well, and then the other two women we did not really find very much out about, to the point where it was like their arcs weren't didn't feel like they were as impactful, because I mean, it's like, what do we really know about Michelle Rodriguez's character other than she's now a single mom of two who used to own a

business but now it doesn't like that's kind of it.

She doesn't really have any depth beyond that, And it would almost it would almost kind of sees what if she maybe maybe if she want to mention but but was still kind of more involved and had screen time, but she doesn't really have preetime either, and then they kind of have her bringing another character, Valdas, also doesn't really get dimensions, So I'm like, you had I want a character that doesn't get dimention thing they get to mention, and so they just kind of just kind of floating

and I thought it was interesting the way that they had bell and and Ronda kind of face off to it when she's introduced and she kind of asserts herself and is like freaking directly off, like okay, it's interesting

like contrast. But but then she gets at the car and just kind of leaves, and I was like, she's so you're just so we're just we're not going to explore okay, all right, right, It's like Cynthia Rivo is like so unbelievably talented, and but like her character comes in forty five minutes into the movie, I think, and then it's like, oh, we're gonna have to play catch up. We've got to like we've got to get her really

involved if she's gonna you know. But but then it's like they don't really follow through on that where I really liked how that sequence with her getting to the second job was composed, and like that was another really cool cinematography moment where she gets home and she sees her daughter for a second, but then she gets a call from it turns out Michelle Rodriguez saying, Hey, I need a sitter, and she's in such financial straits that she has to run to catch the bus to get

to a second job, and I was like, that was such a well executed sequence and sets her character and her kind of predicament up, But then where does it go? Like I feel like, yeah, her character deserved a more complete arc and like more relations chips with the women she was around, and it just felt like, I don't know. I mean, I guess that there are kind of two movies going on inside of this movie, which I'm not opposed to, but it's like the movie is called Widows.

I would like to know about the widow Widows. Yeah, I have to imagine that part of that is a byproduct of the movie being adapted from a TV series. It's adapted from a nineteen eight three British TV series also called Widows from I think like writer creator Linda la Plant and that was a several episode narrative. I haven't seen it, and I don't know much about the series, so I don't know exactly what was like lifted from that and put into this adaptation, or you know, what

was left out. But I I wonder if some of what feels kind of condensed and it's just like thoroughly developed, is because there's like actually more story than a feature length film has time to tell. I don't know, I'm not gonna let them quite get away with that. Well, yeah, I don't think it's an excuse, but I think it's maybe like a reason. I did a little bit of research on it. I did not watch the series. I

was unable to find it, but um I did. I watched a bunch of interviews with Steve McQueen, and I guess that he had really wanted to adapt this series specifically.

I guess it's something he saw when he was a kid and he was like really into it, and he gave we can link to this interview, but um, he was really compelled by the mini series when he was a kid, because I think it's like equally hit upon in that eighties mini series that a lot of the reason that the widows are able to get away with this heist is because they're underestimated by everyone around them,

because they're women, because they're women. And Steve McQueen gave an interview where he was like, and I really connected to that because I was a young black kid growing up in London and I felt like I was also constantly underestimated and so it was a story that really resonated with me, even though it wasn't like a one to one thing, And so I thought like his connection to the story was really cool, and that Gillian Flynn was brought in was like also interesting. And but I

don't really like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I it seems like, I mean, the original source material seems pretty different in that, like the basic premise is the same, but Steve McQueen and Jillian and Gillian Flynn have changed the setting, they have changed the time period, They've changed

a lot of stuff. So I feel like they had already taken enough creative updating and liberties to kind of course correct some of this stuff that And I mean it's like we don't who knows the kind of studio notes movies like highst movies go through and in any movies go through. So I'm not saying it's like all on them, but there were certain things that was like they've already changed a lot about the source material, so why not give half of the widows a story? Like

I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. Um, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion and we're back. Um, should we get into what works more effectively in this movie, such as it's fun and I like it this I suppose it is a romp, but it's more it's a way darker, more serious romp than I usually associate with romps. It's a serious romp.

It's a heavy romp. Yeah, yeah, But I mean I find it really cool and compelling that there's a lot of commentary being made throughout the movie on things like class, race, and gender, because a lot of heist movies do not bother with any kind of social commentary. It's usually just a bunch of white guys who decide to steal money for sometimes no reason, or sometimes it's because, you know, George Clooney wants to have a dick measuring contest with

Andy Garcia for example. That is I mean, I am still waiting for that movie where a diverse group of women steal a bunch of ships for no reason, Like I feel like that is deserved because it's like I was thinking about, like this movie and Oceans eight, where it's like their reasons for stealing are still virtuous enough that they're not like evil people, or it's like what let the women be evil, just like no one asks why George Clooney wants this money. Can't Viola Davis just

steal two million dollars, just let her do it. But this, I like that this movie does what it does. I totally agree, and I think also I think what I say, I do kind of like that they're not friends in a way. I kind of what does when I think I thought was school, I felt I feel like a lot of I feel like a lot of temo the fact. Now it's like, oh, they're all somehow interconnected and they're all friends. But I do kind of like, I think I like that this I felt like what was the

most ground in reality? I felt like and I felt that these women just aren't friends, but they did come together in the for survival. That what I got? What do you like? And then and then I do other things. I do think. I do think the crime was kind of heavy butody, but I do feel he's able to hand on the boat without dropping the ball on either really so at the run times, I feel those are definitely my favorite's my favorite aspect. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

And then we also like see them fumble and they you know, Michelle rock Riguez is like, what the hell am I supposed to do with this blueprint? And Veronica is like, by being smarter than you are being right now.

So it's it's cool that like we see them come together under these high stakes circumstances and have to figure it out along the way, right, and have like realistic conflict, right because like even though this is what like their husbands did professionally, like they are not trained skilled high stirs, thieves, etcetera.

That training was also one of my favorite parts of the movie because she just Veronic could just sounds like this really I like Jim Teacher and they're just like, we hate you, and I'm just like there was some I don't know if either of you watched. I didn't. I watched like the first two or three seasons, but How to Get Away with Murder, But there were some moments in this movie that I was like, oh, this is like full on Analy's keating moments where it's just

like Viola Davis is like, why are you incompetent? Which is basically that entire show. Oh my god. My favorite. One of my favorite exchanges is when Veronica is like, here's two thousand dollars, get some guns, and Alice is like, guns, where am I going to get guns? And Veronica was like, this is America, a k you can get guns like everywhere out literally. That was also also one of my favorite things I think was the gun things I got. Also, it was really um interesting kind of like to square

Alf's character. I think also was really when she approaches that woman and like pretends to be I think a mail order bride, and the little girl is like, Mommy, you always said a gun is a girl's best friend, and You're like, oh no, this woman is like indoctrinating her young daughter into like toxic gun culture already. But then also you think about, like, well, what is their background in personal history, and like what motivations would that mother have for her daughter to want to be able

to defend herself. Like It's which I feel like also connects directly to Alice's character, who is like there's so much time put into like the various ways in which Alice has been traumatized to the point where it's like I felt I felt a lot of Gillian Flynn coming through with that Alice character, where and this isn't even really a criticism, but just like this is a subject matter that Gillian Flynn seems to take on frequently in her work, which is like mother daughter trauma and like

toxic cycles between mothers and daughters specifically, which I think is kind of an under explored topic in media in general, where it's like we make the joke on this show

that like every movie is about fathers and sons. But with Alice, it's like the the kind of like core of her character is that she was abused and manipulated by her mother and also by her husband, and like has this gigantic kind of crisis of self esteem and confidence in sense of self because she has been so controlled for her entire life in a way that is like I mean, it's it's almost like so much that I'm like, do we have enough time in this movie

to really address all of this? Like that scene with her mother was fucking brutal, but yeah, I mean it's so this is like kind of where in this movie, I I get to another point where it's like this was going somewhere, but it felt like there wasn't enough time or whatever it was to like follow through on the seriousness of what was set up where I guess like it's it almost felt like, I don't know, like almost like a little bit girl power feminism for Alice by the end to be like I'm my own woman

now and I'm at school and everything is great, and it just I mean, it's very movie I guess because if they set her up with severe trauma and then they're like and then she went to college and made one friend and you're like, well that okay, like it it feels a little undercooked to me. But I don't know, I I appreciate again, like you're saying, Caitlin, like the fact that this was even tackled in the highest genre is huge. Yeah, I think a lot of the effective commentary.

I mean I actually kind of appreciated that it it didn't dwell on the whole, like, well where women but we can still do this. There's only one There's a very trailer scene where Viola Davis is like, we have the balls. They don't think we have the balls to do this. You're like, alright, alright, we get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She says like we have to move and think like

a team of men. The best thing we have going for us is being what we are, implied women, because no one thinks we have the balls to pull this off, which I think is like an appropriate amount of discussion about that. If it had gone much more beyond that, I would have, um, like, that would be a little

eye rolly to me. It's like, yeah, we know, that would almost feel it was like a movie directed at men to like remind men, yes, women are capable, Yes we can do ship like look at her with a gun and kicking like, But because the movie doesn't dwell on that, it just to me made it more accessible for me at least, right you know, I was like, okay, this, you're you're speaking my language. Um. And then I wanted to share a quote from Viola Davis from that same interview.

I think that you were referencing Jamie from The New York Times right by Reggie Gogo, who says Viola Davis says about the movie quote, this movie is a realistic journey into women gaining ownership of their of their lives, and not at the expense of who they are. The feminine energy and the vulnerability are still there, but I think it's a fantasy and every woman to do something bold and brash and not nice, to bust out of themselves and this and social norms to get at some

level of authenticity. I think that's what attracts people. I know, that's what attracts me. End quote. I know, ah, and that is largely what attracts me to this movie as well, like what compels me about it. Um. Yeah. And then in addition to that kind of like that gender commentary, UM, I think there's also effective class commentary and race commentary embodied a lot in the particularly like the race conversation in like the Jack Mulligan versus them All Manning, And

that was another thing also. I also I also kind of thought about kind of when you're looking at the race, if you look at kind of conversation between Jack and his dad, he's he's he comes off as the more moral, better human kind of um, the more moral between the two, and then you kind of opposed with him and jam All and then he's kind of and and then he's the kind of the last moral, the more evil, I guess,

I guess. But but also um, but also neither of them are also like morally right, and so I love that the phone both both comments. I love that it comes on a couple of things. One kind of um kind of because then then it also gives Jack kind of credit, I guess, for being like a kind of basic um we're not going for like basic um basic beauty as a white man as opposed to kind of his more cotween his father, but within they're both kind

of more wrally wrong totally I guess if that makes sense. Yeah, I thought that that, uh, one of the things that that storyline got too. Pretty effectively, it's like some I mean, it's not like dwelled on in any significant way, but like almost generational commentary where I feel like it's pretty clearly telegraphed that the Mulligan's the father and the son. No one gives a ship about the people in the

eighteenth district there. They don't care. They're more obsessed with keeping power than anything else, Like they don't give a fuck, But the ways that they don't give a funk are

very indicative of their generation. Where Robert Duval's character is just openly racist, like completely mask off, horrifying to watch and listen to, and then Colin Ferrell's character is almost like this more gen x iteration of that same racism and classism and dismissal of his constituents, but he's like more polite about it, and he doesn't say the quiet part loud, like it's it's very I don't know, like there were moments in that story and that we're really

difficult to watch, but in a way that it's like they were being pretty effective in the way that it's like, well and the and the bleakest part of it is by the end whatever I mean, Jack Mulligan wins on the sympathy vote because Robert daval was murdered, and so if you look at it one way, it's like we know that Jack Mulligan doesn't actually want this job, he doesn't care, he feels so bad for himself and he

feels cursed by having to do this job. But ultimately it's the eighteenth district who loses because they're subjected to yet another term of uh nepotism, white guy who doesn't give a ship and is just completely phoning it in, And it's like that political cycle is I don't I mean, it's it's such a real thing and very I don't know, like I feel like there are some ways where like that area of the story was so effectively done, and then it was like, but I wish that I don't know.

I was trying to think of was like I wish that like one of the widows worked in politics more meaningfully, or there was more connection between those two storylines that like fused them together, because at different times it felt like it was separate. That was what I remember kind of in that scene between Jack and Ronica, what would you kind of go then? And I kind of pretend that it's kind of something to do with school digit

and actually kind of asking for help. I wish I said her job had said some how been ebolding, maybe working with him in some way, because if you can make her the main character half a direct have that been the direct link? I feel like that would have been more effective. Yeah, I because Veronica teachers, like a

former member of the teachers union. Yeah, some something along those lines, which we only learn about through dialogue, and I'm like, oh, that would have been interesting to explore more. Sometimes I'm just like, maybe there's movie would have worked better if it was also just a readapted TV series and that way we would like get more of us,

more time to explore. Yeah. Yeah, but remember I remember the first time I was I remember thinking I was like, this would be a really good, like two part pilot for this would work really well. Yeah, as as a pilot, Yeah, because I guess it's like our main criticisms are like things that we wish we had more time to explore,

but they just made the cuts they made. Yeah. Another one of another example of that is the kind of I wouldn't even call it a storyline because it's so fleeting, but the detail you learn about Veronica and Harry's son, Marcus, who was shot and killed by cops because they racially profiled him, and that is then kind of followed up on because there's this kind of ongoing in flashbacks between Veronica and Harry where she says, he you know, He's like, don't make me feel like my only regret is having

a child with you, and she responds with, you know, maybe you should have had a child with someone else, because then he would still be alive, which when we get the flashback of his murder, we realized, oh, he was killed because of the color of his skin, and had he been a white man, that wouldn't have happened. And so like Veronica is harboring, seems to be harboring this guilt revolving around that and then later when Harry shows up at the very end, she calls him out.

She's like, you're such a coward, like you've been having this affair and now you have this son, your new your new son, your new white happy family. And it's this like undercurrent in the movie. But I feel like that could have been something that was explored further, and I would have liked to have just like kind of

learned more about that and how that's affecting Aronica. I agree, and I sh'll think about I thought it was because I feel like that pop Win comes with a lot of his history kind of with with feminity and and and the kind of the digitalvantages and the way the black women, black women aren't offered that kind of feminity, and the way that what women are kind of are the ideal of femininity, and the way that the world that we're often not not teenage women or um or

not often not offered as a kind of advantage or safety um the other one we get because of feminity um and and and and then and and then and then and then and then having it in your head and and and and and then seeing your husband then move on and then saying yours move on with the women, which is if you are being bad enough, but but but then to see him, you know, choose choose that over you and and and to have and really kind of makes the deal even worse. I feel like that

was a really interesting pot point. It could have been expanded a lot more than it was, because there's because

there's so much history with that. Absolutely, Yeah, I was sort of wondering what the script and the story gained by withholding that information for so long, because it seemed like, like you're saying, Michael Michel, like there there is so much historically and story wise to explore there, But by the time you learn what their history is and who their son was and what actually happened, there's almost no run time left to do anything but kill Liam Neeson,

which is like I'm I feel great about like great kill Liam Neeson all day long. But but yeah, it felt like, yeah, that the movie didn't give enough time to effectively explore what you were describing. And it feels like that character like Veronica is so well set up that too, withhold that information for so long, I feel like it almost does a disservice to her character. And then um, kind of back to your point, mean about like kind of the generational differences between Jack Mulligan and

his father. I think another example of that is that programmed that initiative that Jack Mulligan started, the m WOW, the Minority Women Owned Work initiative, where it seems, based on what you know about him, it's obviously an extremely performative thing. That also he is he's basically exploiting the people of this district because you find out that they loaned money to these black women to like start their

own businesses. But then these women are now like beholden to these loans that they're clearly struggling to pay back. Because that's something that we see in the hair salon that Bell works in, because her her boss, the owner of the salon, is having confrontations in and our humans with this man who we understand is coming to collect on this debt. And so basically it's like this, you know, this Jack Mulligan guy being like, look at me, Look

what I'm doing. I'm empowering these women of color to be business owners, and that's generating revenue, and that revenue is going back into the neighborhood. But then when you actually learn about the real circumstances of that initiative where it's all about you know, this performative gesture, this exploitation

that he's making money off of two. So yeah, I thought that was all an effective examination of that just type of very corrupt, performative political whatever dealings that might seem like they're helping marginalized communities but is actually exploitative.

I thought that was effective. Yeah, and I liked that. Again, it's just like, yeah, the more we talk about this, it's like, oh, there's so much like really timely and like well set up premises here that we just don't have enough time to explore where it's like not even as much a criticism of the movie of like, I think the more we talk about it, the more I think you're right, Michael Michelburg. It's like this should be just like a limited series where we have the real

estate to like like really examine this. I would have loved it, Yeah, it would, And I like, I mean it's they I feel like the screenwriters are doing their best there where it's like you do see like there's that one reporter who I appreciate, see like him just I don't know, I've seen stuff like this happen in real time where it's like a city councilor is spewing

campaign point bullshit. Everyone knows he's full of ship, but there's only like one reporter who's like, wait, what uh just watching the city councilor ignore them and be like, oh, this is so annoying when people acknowledge that I'm a liar, like that whole thing, it's like it's so uh yeah, yeah, I don't know, it's it's good. And then but then it's also like we don't get quite enough of it

because I like that. I mean that was another great scene for Cynthia Arrivo's character where she's talking with um, I need to remember the name of the character who owns the hair salon, and and she's pushing back and being like, well that doesn't sound right, Like this isn't you know He's he's basically profiting off of pretending to help us when he's not helping us, he's helping himself. And the owner of the salon kind of replies with like, yeah, I know, but what else am I supposed to do?

Like what other options are available to me? Which is a huge conversation that again, it's like it's so wild in a positive way that this conversation is being had in a heist movie. And I also wish that there was more time to explore it, and also, you know, just get to know Cynthia Arriva's character better in general totally.

I mean the catharsis of that salon owner struggling and acknowledging like, well, I couldn't have gone a bank, wouldn't have given me the loan to start my own business, you know, and then to have money paid back to her because Belle takes a part of her split from

the heist and gives it to the salon owner. So like just the catharsis of having that debt paid back to her, or like getting that money to start a business without you know, having these loan sharks basically like breathing down her neck, you know, putting her in a position of being more financially secure, and that money coming from the very man who exploited her to begin with, is very cathartic. Yeah, Um, does anyone have any other

thoughts about the phil Um? What were you always thoughts kind of about his kind of relations relationship kind of just that's working and all of that. Oh, that's a

that's an excellent question. I would be curious. I almost want I wasn't able to find I was because so this I don't think came up a lot in the summary, but um for listener reference if you have not seen the movie yet, Alice is pressured by her mother to become a sugar baby in order to financially sustain herself and also presumably her mother to an extent after her husband dies in the heist, and so for much of the movie we see Alice is in a transactional sugar

baby relationship with this business guy. So I was I was hoping to be able. I was looking for a sex worker perspective on this storyline, and I wasn't able to find one. So if I mean, if we do have any listeners who have insights into that, we would love we were totally open to hearing it, and I wasn't. I don't know. I mean, my instinct there was that

it was well intentioned but possibly a little undercooked. I felt like there there was kind of an element in at least with that guy, Dave David vague rich guy, where he was pretty emotionally volatile towards Alice, where there were moments where he was very affectionate towards her and she seemed to think that there might be a real relationship developing, and then he would turn on her and be like, this is a transaction for me and grows more and more volatile as the story goes on, and

it feels like, I don't know, I would be curious to know how much when Steve McQueen and Gillian flam were collaborating on this, how much they spoke to sex workers versus used the idea of sugar baby to advance the character and get her to where they wanted her to be. Because I I sort of felt like, and again it's like I don't have experience in this realm, but it almost it did feel to me a little bit like they were commenting more on the idea of a sugar baby as a means to an end, versus

any actual insight into sex work. It felt it felt kind of dragmental to me. Um kind of both both both to the filmmakers and kind of and also and also all the kid goes around her, It just kind of felt like everyone was kind of um. It just kept being a plot point of basically her for either not having a real job or not really being intelligent because as a reflector of being a sugar baby. And I was like, this bear is a little off base here. Yeah,

I have two thoughts about this. Number one is ready um. Number one is I was trying to figure out if there was a distinction between the movie whether or not it was passing judgment about this versus other characters in the narrative passing judgment, because I mean, Veronica certainly is passing judgment as a character, definitely. Yeah, And I think maybe even correct me if I'm wrong, But I I feel like Michelle Rodriguez's character might also make some comment.

Maybe it's just like about something she's wearing. I think that there's comments. It's not just I mean, but with like, yeah, with Veronica, I mean it's like a physical altercation. But yeah, I think that everyone is a little bit judge e about Alice's job. Right, So that's happening without question as far as the movie and the crafters of this story passing judgment, I feel like that was happening to a definitely lesser extent than some of the other characters passing judgment.

But I feel like it would have been more effective if the movie is actually coming at it completely objectively. I think it would have been helpful to have a different character, maybe Michelle Rodriguez's character, to say, like, do whatever you want, it's your life, your choice. Yeah, good point. Yeah, Yeah,

I don't know. And it also sort of sets up Elizabeth Debicky as an actor to be the most heavily sexualized character in the movie, where I mean, she is the only white woman of the widows, right, and and she's also the only woman that has a like long lingering sex scene and these scenes of her and all these gowns, and it just I don't know. I it wasn't my biggest issue with the movie, but it also

just there were some lingering like why was this? And I am curious of like how much of that storyline was carried on from the mini series or if this was completely an invention of these two writers. I don't really know. Yeah, and we'll never know because we simply won't and maybe even can't. Where do you find British from the eighties? I tried, I really did try, and I couldn't find it. Yeah, but yeah, I'm a little

wary of that. But my second thought about this is that it is a reminder to me that all of the men in the story are framed as being obstacles and or antagonistic forces for the widows, which I think is an interesting flip considering that in your average heist movie, which is again a bunch of men doing heists for reasons, um,

women are often framed as obstacles. Like just again, to refer back to Oceans eleven, Julia Roberts, Brad Pitts all like she's a distraction, Danny Ocean stopped being distracted, blah blah blah. I still can't get over the fact that his name is Danny Ocean. Act movie so many times, and I'm like, what the fuck his name is Danny Ocean. I can't think of it's ludicrous, But um, yeah, so I think it was. I mean, I don't hate the

choice that I mean. And again I'm not saying like all men hashtag, not all men are bad and obstacles, but um, between, like this David guy who Alice gets involved with, he, like you said, Jamie gets increasingly like more and more volatile. Her deceased husband was physically abusive. Linda's husband was gambling away all of her money that she earned from running this gown store boutique, yah, causing her to lose her business. Obviously, we talked about how

Veronica's husband, Harry was, you know, cheating on her. He's lying, he's faking his death, he tries to kill her, etcetera. Name a thing he didn't do wrong. He really did every single thing. He fucked up real bad um. The men in the Manning family, the men and the Mulligan family, they are all posed as being antagonistic forces to the women.

I would say the only exception is Bash the driver, like he's he seems okay, good friend as far as I can tell, and then he isn't okay because you know, he's just yeah that that's a really good point that I don't know, I have such complicated feelings about it's not even specific to this movie, but movies that it's so bizarre because it's just like whatever, the past five to seven years feel like it's been forever. It feels

like such a long time. And so this movie is less than three years old, but there are already elements of it that not even in a way that I'm being super critical of but that feel a little bit dated, of like the feeling and the sort of like movie energy that was coming to screens in the year after the Me Too movements started going, versus being three years out and knowing kind of a little more about how that actually bore out, and like the successes and failures

that that movement has had. It like, watching this movie now is like and watching the trailer, especially Michael Mitchell. You mentioned the trailer, and I remember being so fucking

hyped on the trailer. I love. It's like the most me too trailer ever where it's like, we're going to do it now, and like it's very cathartic and exciting and and then but but then there's also like I can't quite describe what the feeling is, but there's it makes me like a little bit sad and discouraged to watch that trailers out because it felt like there was all this positive energy, and like with so many movements, you're like, oh, yeah, we didn't solve that in a year.

What were we thinking? Like it was? I don't it's hard to just I don't. I don't really know exactly what I'm getting at here, but I guess just the idea of like, there have been so many reversals of mail driven plots, which this movie is in many ways, And I think that the ways that it does it and the subject matter it chooses to tackle is really smart. It's well written, it's certainly well acted, like it's really cool.

And then there's also I don't know, I mean, there's certainly room for both of these sorts of movies, But then there's sometimes where it's like, is the only option to just flip it? Because I don't know in this ice piece that Again, I want to shout out the

writer Amior Mercer. She was pointing out, like, with kind of the exception of set it off, most women driven heist movies are reversals of mail plots, and she pointed out, and I've only seen Oceans eight once and I didn't really like it very much, but how the women in Oceans eight are very defined in relation to characters who existed in Danny Ocean's life and like age my little sister and this is bu and it's all they exist in relation to men. And that is true of the way.

I mean, that's like widows, like the title implies proximity to men, which is a very true you know that it's like a reality that exists. And then I also I'm just I don't know, I want us to get to a point where it doesn't need to be a flip of a movie we've seen before, like like it should just be a story on its own. It also kind of makes you think about that. There was this

video I've watched the other day. I don't know, I think it might have been the take, but they're talking about how how often things in the female gage or just kind of flipping I just kind of flipping the mail gage but updractifying men. And so how do we get past just the flipping had what is film beyond that? And how do we get to a space of just a completely new space of just creating content that isn't that's beyond the flap of flipping? And how do we

create it? And and what is that content? Yeah? Yeah, that's so well put. Yeah, where it's just like, at what point with like flipping that gaze is like it was, I don't know, I like almost go back to my twenty eight teen SEWT were like all I wanted to see was like in movies women doing two oppressors? What oppressors had done to them, and like that was really cathartic and exciting and like I felt like a release that was like needed. But at some point it's like,

but that can't be the end game. You can't just flip patriarchy. That's ridiculous. Like there's like I don't know, I just like I don't know. I've well, I've been doing my feelings this summer. Well that we talked about this a lot, where I mean, progress is a process, right, and that where's the merch where's the T shirt? But it means that there are stepping stones, and we've covered a lot of movies on the show that we have commented that this feels like a stepping stone movie. This

is like a step in the right direction. It's not perfect, it's not nearly as like amazingly intersectionally feminist as we are hoping it is, but it was very progressive for the time that movie came out, or you know, whatever the case. So, yeah, I think it's I don't think it's the end game. Is just like a gender flip, but it is like one of the steps in the

process or like just like process. Yeah, where it's like Widows does feel very much like how eighteen felt in a lot of ways words, which is wild to say because it's so recent, but it's like it is capturing so many ideas and catharsis and and just like beginning to discuss serious societal issues in a genre where you wouldn't normally even think about seeing that. Yeah, I don't know.

I think I think that year specifically. I think I think we're like halfway through tough presidency and everyone kind of wanted and it was it was like it was like it was the year of of of representation mattering, and everyone was so want to grab Ronnie to grab and feel kind of aspirational and it definitely feels staved in that. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's so like even just yeah, like context historically was like, oh this this movie makes exact sense for the moment that it came out in

and it's it is it's like so well done. I mean, and Steve McQueen and Gillian Flynn, like that's such a cool collaboration to have even happened, Like it's awesome. I think that Gillian Flynn, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that she is from Chicago, which is I think why the setting was shifted there. Um, I'm pretty yes, Okay,

so yeah, she is. She has lived in Chicago for many years, so I think that that was why between her and Steve McQueen that it was like a British mini series that Steve McQueen loved, and then they said it where Gillian Flynn lived, and like it just it's cool. It's a really cool collaboration, really totally. But what other questions was also kind of because I don't think we

talked about it. What was um was I guess Day's his too, his too kind of the the other kill the other killing scenes, the one with Bash kind of as wanting football, and then also and and and then also the freestyle raps he and I was wondering, kind of, what y'all what about those? I mean, just from a cinematic point of view, I'm always so shocked that it happens because we don't know who those characters are when

they're first introduced, because we hadn't seen them before. We don't really understand the context that they like exist in the story or what their role is. And it's not until part way into the conversation that jam is having I think with other characters. Is it that they are the ones who kind of let the robbers get away with the money, or they were supposed to be like keeping an eye on the money and then they sucked up and that's why they were able to steal it.

I think it was something along those lines, if I'm not mistaken. Um, yeah, that was my understanding of it. So they had like messed up and then they get punished for it by being shot and really brutal, especially the first shooting, right, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I

was curious when everyone thought about that. I feel like those kinds of scenes are like you're saying that, they're always shocking to me because it's just like it's not a genre that I've ever been extremely invested in, and it does like these godfathery scenes where it's just like very dramatic executions has never really been for me, but

I do. I yeah, I feel like the fact that these executions are done by a character who the movie isn't really letting us get to know makes watching it feel worse or like more exploitative, where it does sort of just feel like a torture porn situation because I feel like Daniel Clia, like you were saying earlier, Michael Michelle, like Daniel Clia's performance is doing the heavy lifting there where like you can tell like he's trying my And then I watched an interview with him to sort of

make sure that this was what he would he like he was trying to performance always come from a place of like this is how he shows love and loyalty to his brother is by doing this, which is like, wow, Daniel Clia is so smart like that totally like hearing that was like that totally comes through, But that isn't really in the writing like he does that, he brings that, but and it does feel it feels kind of grow especially concerning the conversation we had earlier, where the way

that these scenes are shot is very telling of it. Really it seems to really the camera work kind of dwells more on the brutal murder of a disabled man. We see the two black men in this first scene to be executed very much on screen, like there's nothing held back in that. And then with white characters that we know, all of a sudden, the cameras a little shyer, and and and the fact that we don't really get the information we need with gamalogy attempt seems to make

it harder. I don't know, what did you think, Michael Mitchelle, even I was telling me, I was even thinking a lot about what I think. I also love. I do think.

I think the sound of sound is also really interesting, and a lot of even certain scenes, um, the certain depths seem moore see loud, rent and kind of more goals when it comes to the other stable characters, for the black characters, and and then and and and then and then and then music kind of swelling kind of you know, in a softer way when it came to

like cares of something. I also noticed, um so and so I would also and so I feel like both the camera work and then the town designed together kind of um there, they're as already there West. But that was probably I do think that was a high point for me. Didn't know I think that that this undersigned what was really was the highpoint by But I do think there were certain spots where I was like, this

could have been handled a little better. Yeah, yeah, because it's like, I mean, best case scenario, those scenes could have I mean just been like holy sh it mob scenes, which I think is like what they were trying to be, but they were like, yeah, the details in the cinematography and like the character development or like lack thereof, I guess made it a little tougher. I don't know. I also don't unders and mob movies, so I could be so very wrong either way. It's uh, that scene is

always extremely jarring for me. But um, yeah, because that's like the first because you get the you get the big explosion pretty early on with the van explodes, but that's the first moment of like really brutal, like happening right in your face violence, graphic violence kind of things. So yeah, it's it's always like, oh god, Daniel Khaluja, oh my stars, and so my stars, why are you so mean? But does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? I also, Sally, I really want to knowledge

the true star of this film, this Olivia. I just feel like a true star. She you know, you know, she helped find you know, help find Harry. Really Veronica's motivation just a star, love her, adorable an icon. Absolutely. Um does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Yes, yes, yes, yes, here's my favorite pass. Well, well it's not. We'll we'll discuss how it's not quite a pass. But Alice said,

why are you being such a bitch. You're being a sword. Veronica, don't say that word to me, Alice, it's appropriate, you're being a sword. And then Veronica is like, you're just a stupid girl with nothing in your head. And then they slap each other and they sure do. Yeah, we love Melo drama. But I would argue that that conversation does not pass because this is Veronica slut shaming Alice for having sex with a guy only one month after her husband died, so the context is still all about

her husband. This new guy. Yes, but it is an interaction between women. There's no denying that. But no, it does. It does pass a lot. The widows are planning the heist together, talking a lot of like logistics stuff, things that don't have anything to do with men. Shall we get to our ratings on the nipple scale? Let's do it. Our nipple scale is zero to five nipples, based on how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens. I

would give this I think four nipples. It's gonna get some points docked simply because of a lot of what we talked about in terms of things that the movie starts to examine or starts to explore that it doesn't there's not quite enough time to fully explore it, and then I feel like we're kind of like robbed of opportunity, used for more interesting commentary or yeah, just a closer

examination of what I think this movie is trying to do. Again, it probably should have just been readapted, revitalized as another series. It's not that it doesn't work as a movie, but I think it doesn't work quite as well, just because there's it feels like there's so much crammed into this

already pretty long movie. It's over two hours long. But um, yeah, there's just there's different bits of like characterization and commentary that I feel could have been handled more effectively had we been given more time with it, especially the relationships between the widows and how those grow and develop over the course of the story, especially with a character like Bell who gets introduced so late into the game and we don't really learn anything about her. So yeah, that's uh,

that's my main grape with the movie. So four nipples, and I'll give one to each of the widows. Wow, I'll meet you there. I'll meet you there like three point seven five or four. This movie is really fun to watch, and it also is it's a it's a heavy romp, it's a tone poem, and yet it's a it's interesting. I would call it hetty and heavy. Yes, every h e a blank y uh, substitute any consonant. It's that. But yeah, I I really like this update on the format. I love a Steve McQueen Gillian Flynn

collaboration that was really cool. I that the performances in this movie are like incorrect, like the cast, Like just watched a couple of round tables with the cast and you're like, hold on, this cast is ridiculous. Like it's so I like, I feel like we didn't get to talk about Brian Tyree Henry very much, and I just

like he's incredible. He's so good. I know he's not one of the widows and all the widows are incredible, but I was like, Brian Tyree Henry doesn't need an oscar like yesterday anyway, he had an incredible year right yere He's yeah, yeah, he's like he had like a wild eighteen. He was in like everything that year because he was also he's he's in Um was into this Better Verse that year because he voices Miles, his dad in that movie. Yes, yes, he was Real Street that

year as well. Yeah, he's Oh my god, I really like him. What else was he in that year? He was in? Oh, I have no idea what that movie he is. He was in a movie called Hotel Artemis. Oh I remember that coming out? Yeah, well he was in it. Whatever. Anyway, it's good for so. Yes, I like, I totally agree with what you were just saying, Caitlin,

and what you were saying earlier, Michael Michelle. Where this movie you could argue, maybe like bites off a little more than it can chew with the sheer number of issues it's trying to address where I don't know. I mean, ultimately, I'm glad that it tries it. We don't quite have the run time to meet every single arc, but I mean the fact that it's a heist movie that addresses

racial injustice and class injustice and misogyny. It tackles a hell of a lot in two hours, and it all makes sense in the story and it's just it it comes together. It's it's really good. Um, most of the issues I have with this movie is just stories that it doesn't quite have the time to follow through on. It's not really what they do that I have an issue with. That's what they didn't have time to do.

I wish. I mean, we should have known more about the Mannings, We should have known more about Michelle read Egas and Cynthia Rivo, et cetera. Yeah, so yeah, I'll let's go for it. And I will also give a nipple a piece to the widows. Nice Michael, Michelle, what about you? I am also going to give it for um, you know, kind of like you all said everything, everything that they attempted. I really I really appreciate and enjoyed it, and pretty I loved it as a work. It's I'm

pretty be honest. I think it was my favorite of that year and I think also my personal favorite hist movie. Um. I just I think it's it's just it's it's really grounded. I think I think all the women feel like real women and they don't feel like our types of women for the sake of like woman hasn't been a movie, which is nice. Um totally, and I love I love the all four of them are soul specific in each of their bast wood and and and that they're all

dealing with with with with very specific marital problems. Um, you know, my graphs are the same that you all have. You know that I wish that the great thing that they that they had given us kind of head head any more time to be able to kind of kind of blosom kind of um with the run time. But I'm so glad that it's a second tone, you know, and then and then and then it exists, and um, and I'm also really pissed that it didn't get more

more than Awards season. Um, yes, absolutely, because I got completely snubbed by the Golden Globes and the Academy, right, is that remembering it? Right? Yeah? Completely. I was just I was like, so, we're just not going to acknowledge that this magic. It's fine. I'm not better at five okay over it kind of But yeah, So I love this movie. I wish it could have given us more, but um, I kind of explored more and kind of given us more death. But I'm glad to existed. So

I'll give it four stars. Nice, amazing, Well, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you. This was such a blast. Thank you so much for having me. I love you. I really appreciate your working. It was really fun to talk to you all. Likewise, thanks for bringing us this movie. This was so fun. Where can we find more of your work? Where can we follow you? Plug away? Yeah, so I am. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram, on on on Twitter, on films and films, fe m M E s N Films, and

then on Twitter, I'm Michael Michelle. So I'm Michael Michelle, and then with three e's at the end, um, and then I've worked in teen, Vogue and Vogue and L and Harvard Bazaar, UM and Nylon, and you can just I'm Michael Michelle at all of those sites. And I'm just feeling up thing around the internet, you know, and um in school, uh, trying to get a film degree and yep, so very relatable stuff. So we're just here trying to make art, review art. I'm just here on

in this hell. Yes, And you can find us in all the usual places. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter, at bachtel cast, you can find us on our Patreon ak Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast, where you get to bonus episodes a month for simply five dollars a month. Wow, in addition to our almost one hundred episode back catalog. Wow. Incredible, brave of us. And you can also grab some merch at our merch store, t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. There's all

kinds of good ease, so go grab them. I haven't heard the word goodies used in casual conversation and many moods. Thank you for that any time. And uh, Jamie, we've successfully pulled off this podcast that we've all done together. So now come we kill Liam Neeson. So we can kill Liam Neeson and now we have five million dollars with Bay