To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar with Jeena Bloom

incident that revolves around a framed photograph. It's good. There's actually I feel like for that it would be either like we would be sitting at the table and it would be either of It would be like an Alfred Bilina head shot, which, by the way, we're recording on his birthday. Happ Happy birthday Alfred to Mr Alfred Um. But yeah, it would be to Jamie and Caitlin, thanks for everything, Alfred Molina. That would be really, I mean,

a dream come true. If we're already pitching, If we're already pitching ideas, I think that that's a strong place to start. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. By the way. By the way, it's it's me Caitlin Durante from the photograph. It's me Jamie Loftus. I'm referenced in the photograph, but

the pictures of Caitlin. Yeah, exactly, Yeah. Uh. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation about representation and such in film. Philm Yeah, it's two thou twenty one. We added an extra an extra syllable to uh. And the Bechdel Test, if you don't know, it was a media metric created by queer cartoonists Alison Bechdel's sometimes called the Buchtel Wallace Test.

There's many different versions of this test. Here's our little spin on it. Uh. For our version of the Bechdel test, there must be two named characters of a marginalized gender who speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue. And guess what The dialogue has to be plot wise meaningful somehow, not like the biggest thing that happens in the movie, but not something that is like, oh, they passed it by accident. I'm sick of handing it to movies that

pass it by accident. God damn it. We won't take it anymore. Yeah, us incredibly brave. Um So today's movie is, if you didn't guess by my amazing introduction or by reading the title of the episode, is too Wung Food. Thanks for everything, Julie Newmar, long time request. I think this has been on our list for a couple of years, since the beginning, since the beginning, and I understand why, because there's a lot to talk about and to join

us in that discussion. We've got an amazing comedian. She's the host of the podcast Sweet a Lady's Guide to Bro Culture. She's got live toward dates coming up in the fall because we're going to be able to do shows again. It's Gina Bloom. Hey, Hi, welcome. Thank you for having me on this on this most auspicious day of Molina. It is a very very special day. I love an Alfred Molina. So here we are. You've come to the right place on this very special day. Yes, what a treat. If he I don't I mean, I

don't know Alfred Malina. He was working in ninety five. He could have been in this movie, you know, not high profile enough. This is a very high profile movie. Yeah, higher profile than I thought it was. Apparently this was there was like a little bit of like a like a war between leading actors trying to get on. Yeah, like they really went for it. The people who were considered for the Vita bo M character is like every

a list from the Wikipedia page. It's filed from John Cusack looking like his sister Joan, which is a huge upgrade. So no idea why he didn't keep that going. But where where you go, Billy Baldwin, there's a there's like everyone you would expect, and then some wild cards such as Willem Dafoe. What James Spader I was like, yeah, John Turturo was like, okay, we got some character actors in the mix here where Tom Cruise was one of them.

Tom cru Robert Downey jr. Um, Matthew Broderick, Mel Gibson Boo. Yeah. I feel I feel that Rod probably could have brought it. Although I'm not a huge fan, but um I do. I do love the idea of an alternate universe. Willem Dafoe as as Vida, there is something special about that. It's wild. Yeah, every every working white man at this time auditioned for this part. And uh Swayzie one the day, Yes,

s Wayses. I I love a Patrick Swayzy movie. And I guess the weird thing about this movie is that I've never seen it until until now, and I've seen almost, I think literally every other Patrick Swayzy movie. Wait, so this was your first time seeing the movie? Is my first time watching this? Yeah? And so just to give you some idea about, you know, my personal like story

with this movie that well, I'm a translator. And so when you're growing up you know in the South, which in the part of Florida that I grew up in is the South, Like you didn't open this out de group in Florida Like then, No, No, Tampa, Florida is the self, trust me. And you know, I heard of the movie. I've seen the commercials. You know, you watch it on back in the day at the VHS tape and you'd see the commercials and all that, and I'm like, and in my head, I was like, I should watch this.

I am a trans person. I didn't know, I didn't know what the words were, but like it was too it was too much for my head to take and like all my little miscreant friends were like that movie, I'm not gonna watch that. They there's gay stuff going on in there, and like you know that little like Cloistered World. It just it just got by me. And like I'd always I wanted to watch it, but you know, I wasn't there in that time when I just couldn't bring myself to it. And then by the time I could,

there's all kinds of other stuff to watch. So here I am. Wow. I didn't know you hadn't seen it before wild Finally, Yes, that's why I picked it. I was like, oh my god, I've never seen this. Let's do this. What was your broad impression of it? I'm so curious, you know, Um, it was a little it was a little. Um, it was a lot of fun. First of all, it's it's a fun It's a fun,

silly light film, and you know what, that's fine. Like I like, I read on the Wikipedia page where like a lot of the straight mall reviewers are like, this is nothing special, and I'm like, well, I mean it is though. It's it's a queer movie. It's a very gay movie put out by you know, a studio. So that is by definition of something special. It was really it was kind of confusing in the movie didn't seem to know the difference between trans women and drag queens.

This is true. Yeah, yeah, So so it took place in some weird world where drag queens just went around and dragged twenty four hours a day all the time, including when they're in bed. Would they have their wigs on and their makeup still on and they're like about ready to go to bed, Yeah, they're in a full face, they're they're tucked in, they got the tape, they got everything going, and it's like, no, there was a very

fun um. I found a I'd not heard of this YouTube channel before, but it's a drag queen movie review channels. I was like, oh, this is perfect. And the drag feed who reads the channel, James man Man's Field, brings that up right away. I'm just like, where what planet does this movie take place on? Some some weird drag plant And I had read, you know, I read a an article about you know, I think it's like the twenty anniversaries from a few years ago, and the screenwriter

was like, who is out? He was a gay man he was like, I wanted to make a world where it was like it was like a fantasy world, and like it doesn't have to be realistic. It just wanted to be fabulous all the time. So I kept the drag queens and dragged all the time, which is a very white gay man perspective on on transness, which you know, I you know what it's I'm gonna I'm gonna have to like just deal with the fact that things are gonna be a little weird for a movie made in

a product of its time. The is really popping out at multiple plays, like there's a lot of ninety going on here. Caitlyn, what's your history with this movie. I saw it for the first time in college and I have not watched it since, and that was like fifteen years ago. So I've spent this whole time since then under the impression that this was a movie about drag queens, which, to be fair, is what the movie thinks the movie

is about. And then I saw it again a year ago and I was like, wait a minute, that's not what this movie is about. This movie is about three trans women, as far as my interpretation goes, And uh so, yeah, I've only seen it like one time before, like in my youth, and then again more recently trans women who don't know how to dress for comfort as as a as a as a woman that has been all across the country, I can tell you that is not how

you dress for the South. That is not how you dressed for the weather ladies, or a road trip like or any of that. It's not. Yeah, they drive clear across the country. I was like, how, oh god, So yeah, I don't. I don't have an extent of history with it, but I do find this movie very fascinating and I'm excited to dive deeper into it. Jamie, what's your relationship with it? I had never seen this movie all the way through. I think I had seen bits of pieces

of it over the years. I think I think this was I feel like I've given this answer for this show of a jillion times. But I believe there was a heavily edited version of this movie that used to air on T and T UH that that I had seen bits and pieces of. But this was basically my first time seeing it all the way through. And I mean, holy cow, there's so there's there's so much to talk about. I didn't. This is the smallest thing. But I was like, oh, Stockard Channing. It took me so long to figure out

who Stoker Channing is. Kind of a chameleon. I feel like she looks so different. I recognized Lady Stockard immediately. I I am. I am a Stockard fan from way back. I ran into her in two thousand seven at a Cuckaroo, a restaurant in California. Got you know, r I P Kuckaroo but like they're in Burbank. I was standing behind Stockard Channing and I just wanted to gush, but I left her alone. She ordered her chicken and left. But like, yes,

immediately like, oh that is Stalkard Channing. Nice, that works. That works for me. Wow. I love the just the image of STALKERD. Channing ordering her chicken and leaving. It's just so beautiful. It was it was it was my it was my Wong food l new mor moment. She's up there, she's up there with like Joey Foster as far as like my my white lady um mentors. They don't know they are, but they are beautiful. In especially in terms of like the production history of this movie.

I was very much in the Dark. So it was it was really interesting to learn. I mean, first of all, just like watching the movie all the way through, there's so much and then learning about the production there's also so much. So I'm I'm stopped to talk about it. Should I recap it and we'll go from there? Yeah? Okay, so totally this movie is very light and rompy, but I do want to do a quick trigger warning at

the top because there is sexual assault that happens. Um. Okay, So we meet Vita bo M that's Patrick Swayze and Noxima Jackson that's Wesley Snipes. They are drag queens, according to the movie, competing in a Drag Queen of the Year pageant in New York City? Ever heard of it. Also there is Chee Chee Rodriguez played by John Leguizamo. RuPaul is there as miss Rachel Tensions. Okay, okay, let's

discuss RuPaul. Let's just get through the RuPaul part because RuPaul enters in a Confederate flag dress first of all, and it was like, wow, RuPaul is literally just like stopping by before going back to like the fracking fields, Like what is just there was a lot and I know that there's I I read that there were a number of iconic I guess nineties era New York drag queens in that scene as well, And I don't have the backbown, but who boy RuPaul Yeah in the Rebels

flag dress. I mean the figure was gho. It's nice to see rue as as a young but like that that dress that was not good. But it also it also its signified, like it alerted you to the fact that there's a lot of like racist humor in this movie and you're gonna be hearing a lot of it. Oh my gosh. Yeah, Well it didn't even connect for me on my first rewatch of the movie. It wasn't until I was rewatching it a second time to prep for this episode that I remembered that RuPaul's drag name

in this movie is Rachel Tensions. And I was like, oh, that's why the Confederate flag dress. But that that beat isn't really stepped on, so you just it's just RuPaul in a Confederate flag dress and you're like huh, and like, knowing that it was all written by a white guy, You're just like, what the no, you know, just a reminder that RuPaul Fracks. It's just never a fact that gets up for me. RuPaul Fracks in a in a a Confederate flag dress cannon. This is only the only

appropriate outfit to fracken. Oh yikes. Um, So Rachel Tensions is there to announce the winner of this competition, the prize for which is a trip to Hollywood, California, and it's a tie between Noxima Jackson and Vita Boem and Chee. Chee is devastated that she didn't win, so Vita takes pity on her and invites her along on the trip

to Hollywood. And while they're at a bar trying to figure out the logistics of how this trip with the three of them will work, in which we get a cameo from Robin Williams, who I guess had a big hand in making this movie. Happen to think that was interesting? Yeah, always happy to see him. Yeah, and like he he had wanted to play the lead, but he felt that it was he was physically inappropriate, which is the correct response. Robin and then got Steven Spielberg's involvement and getting the

movie made, so it's surprisingly star studded this production. Yeah, I didn't, I did not realize that this was an Amblin joint when when I was going into it and reading there, reading the history of like how that happened, there was like a great piece in the Advocate that was kind of this oral history of the at the time, the one out producer at Amblin really pushed for this movie, and it's just it's it's an interesting um it's an

interesting story. I just didn't realize I was like Steven Spielberg, alright, sure, he really was absolutely everywhere in the nineties he owned absolutely. Um. So, while they're at this restaurant, Vita notices a framed picture behind her and written on it says to Wong Foo, thanks for everything, Julie newmar So Vita steals the photo to take with them on the trip as sort of like a good luck charm. So they leave for their trip in an old Cadillac convertible. They stop in Vita's hometown.

We find out that she is estranged from her rich family and they also live in a castle. They live in a castle, and absolute castle, yes, somewhere in Pennsylvania. Then they talk about what it means to be a drag queen and they say that cheat Chee isn't a full fledged queen yet, She's still just a princess, and that there are these like four undefined steps that she

has to take before she's a full drag queen. Complicating that, though, is before they refer to cheat as a princess, they refer to her as a boy in address, which is complicated because on the one hand, Checho is very obviously a trans woman, but on the other hand, the film doesn't acknowledge that, so it's it's a it's a muddled message, to say the least. There's a monolog from NOx Ema in this scene that we will unpack in a in a little bit because oh wow, is it outdated? I

think I know the one you talked about. I had to watch it three or four times. It'd be like, Okay, what is it. As a translating that's experienced, I can tell you that's brought us about what was like? So, yeah, we're just gonna yeah, I'm just gonna have to deal with it. You have to deal with the past. Yeah. Um. So then a little while later they pull off for the night and they have to be careful about where they stay because they know about this very real possibility

that people will be cruel and intolerant toward them. Um. But then they go to this they find this hotel where the concierge mistakes them for members of a women's basketball team, so they're like whoo, and then they set off again. They drive for a while, they get lost, it's dark, it's late there in the middle of nowhere, and then they get pulled over and Sheriff Dullard has stopped them and asks Vita to step out of the vehicle. He then assaults her. She fights back and knocks him out,

and they think he might be dead. So then they really wish he had just died. I have been a treat that would that would have been a treat the film would have been without conflict. But that's okay. Didn't need the s guy at all. Could have found another way, right. I don't know why I was so shocked when he turned out to not be dead, but I was. It was deeply disappointing. Yeah. I also, I'm like, I love that they just leave him for dead, just frantically flee

the scene. They make a quick stop, but then the car won't start back up again, so they hit your ride and end up getting stuck in this small town for a few days while their car gets Next, a local woman, Carol Anne that's Stockard Channing, offers them a room in her house and they have to just hang out for these few days while they're like part comes in to fix their car. So Vita Naxi and Chee

Chee make the best of it. They befriend the local ladies, give them makeovers, help them plan this upcoming Strawberry social Um. Some of the local men are harassing everybody. So, but the movie is like, but it's a but it's a joke. Yeah,

the random get up Tufts was undeveloped, to say the least. Yeah, there was a random there's a random gang of small town tufts that just annoy people for some reason and also seem like they are about to assault Chee Chee in one scene and then uh, don't wear Vita Knoxi teach them some manners. Yeah, they get They get scolded

one time and straightened out and then they learned their lesson. Right, There's a lot of that going on in this town, a lot of being reprimanded one time, a lot of lessons learned here, including so Caroline has an abusive husband who they run out of town. Also, Chee Chee has been flirting with this man, Bobby ray Um, but a young woman named Bobby Lee is in love with him. So Vita Knoxi and Chee Chee help Bobby Lee pair off with Bobby ray isn't Bobby ray one of the

Days Didn't Confused guys? Am? I like, yeah, I'm pretty sure he has Okay, okay, because I was like, he's familiar. Well, they're twin brothers, so he's either the Days and Confused guy or he's that guy's brother, but they're twins. But yes, that is true. You know what, I don't even want to solve the mystery. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna

live with the mystery. Let um. So meanwhile, Sheriff Dullard, who did not die, is going around looking for Vita and her friends, and then Carol Ane's abusive husband, Virgil, runs into Sheriff Dullard, who presumably tells Dullard about Vita, Naxi, and Chee Chee because then Dullard shows up to the

town demanding to know where they are. But then the whole town like shows up to protect them and sends Dullard on his way, kind of like Spartacus style, the way it happened, Yes, very much so, yes, very Spartacus ending. Absolutely so. Vita, Naxi, and Cheechee are very touched that the town stood up for them. Um. Everyone celebrates at the Strawberry Social. Carol Anne wishes them a farewell, Vita gives her the photo of Julie Newmar and then they leave.

And then the movie ends with the Drag Queen of America contest in Hollywood, California. Ever heard of it? And Julie Newmar crowns the winner, who is Chee Chee. And that is the movie. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back. Where do we want to start here? Where where should we begin? Well, as we touched on already, this movie does not really understand. No, it doesn't purposely purposely does not understand because I mean, it took place. It's not

n like they knew. They just chose to do it this way, like they knew that drag queens are in transmen are not the same thing. But they they're like, no, we're gonna do it this way. Yeah, I have to imagine it was a an attempt to maybe appeal to

a more widespread audience, to leave it intentionally vague. Yeah, well, I think it's yeah that I think it's just the visuals because you know, they're they're going for this idea, you know, with the stunt casting, that we're going to cast these like alpha male action guys as drag queens, so we can never not show them and drag. Otherwise they're just gay men and that's not that's not hiconcept

enough for right. Like, they like they really wanted to like just drive home the visuals so they could, you know, pump the you know, the trailer full of like funny music. So I'm sure that's what they were thinking. And that's just that's just the reality of the film. The trailer is so bizarre. I don't know if either of you have seen it, but it's Westley Snipes and then you like see steve footage of him in action movies. He's

done in other movies. Pas it goes it shows Wesley Snipe clips that says he's been a killer and a commando, and then it cuts to like Patrick Swayzy. Eclipses says he's been a heartthrob and a hero. They don't introduce John like Wisamo at all, and then they just cut to the and an actual trailer starts. It's very bizarre, and then it's something like in their most physically challenging role yet, and then it cuts to them in drag and you're like, Okay, if you insist, we're gonna say

that five thousand times in this episode. It's gonna be the title of the episode. And it was just deal with it. Um, So yeah. Another distinction that we should make is that while drag queens have traditionally been thought of as siss gay and who do drag, of course, there are lots of trans and non binary and gender queer people who are also drag performers. The two are

not mutually exclusive. But again, this movie, the mission of the film was that these were drag performers, not trans women, although you watch the movie like, these are trans women, and then if you read John Legisanlo's interviews, he's like, no, I played this as a trans woman, Like this is this is not a drag queen that I'm that I'm performing as. Right, So he got it, he got it, and he said like, if this movie were to be remade today, they should cast a Latina trans woman to

play that part. So yes, we in our one lens understand this. We're smart. Just your episode Lee reminder, we are smart, You're smart, and wean in in the years. I honestly, I mean, I was surprised because there was so much or not so much, but there's a fair amount written about this movie at its twenty year anniversary, and I was surprised to not see like the writer of the movie pressed a little more on this. I wasn't able to find any examples of Also, Douglas carter

Bean very fancy name. Don't know anything about his background, but Douglas carter Bean is a funny name, and he it's it says on his Wikipedia page. He often writes works with sophisticated drawing room humor. So he's he's just a fancy person, fancy, He's a fancy lad, Douglas carta Bean. But no, no one seems to have ever really pressed him on on on this, and it's his only film project.

He's otherwise worked almost exclusively on stage. I just thought it was like kind of I was honestly just expecting him to have commented on it at some point, and he never has. Yeah, I have a quote from him where he says, quote, my inspiration for the script came from watching the religious right videotape The Gay Agenda. There's a scene where they show drag queens going through a town and the narrator is warning viewers that these people will take over your town. And I thought, well, that

would be fun unquote. Yeah, you know, and I read that too, and that that is a that is a funny funny. It's a funny inspiration. Yeah, I don't get me wrong. Yes, we're we we have we have well established that this film has an incorrect depiction of trans women. But on the other hand, it is kind of funny that the movie simply is that is this drag queens taking over a town, and that that itself is a

funny idea, which it generally accomplishes. In my opinion. I have to kind of turn off my my my censors is a little bit, but like I think, just going with the flow. Sometimes I get on the movie's wiflength because of that. I mean, to enjoy a movie, we often must turn off those lenses, those goggles, take off the Bechtel, cast goggles, et cetera. Because there are elements to this movie that are like, really just like road movie romp. Stuff is going on. There's it is like,

at its heart, a road trip movie. And there's a party at the end. And I know, Caitlin, you're generally anti prom wedding party at the end, but I'm like, there's a party at the end and everyone throwing red. You know what, I didn't mind it. I mean, I don't mind a general party at the end of a movie. I just specifically don't like proms and weddings because of the connotations they generally carry. But I liked the strawberry Festival.

The strawberry Festival, You're like, yeah, sure, this is probably the only thing that happens at this place all year. What's funny is that where I grew up in Florida had a strawberry festival and it was really it was yes, yes, I grew up near Plant City, Florida, which is where the Strawberry Festival in Florida is, and it was never this. It was never this fabulous. Never. They never coordinated colors, they never did any of that. This was way better Starberry.

It was never a red and wild theme. Never, never a theme period. It was just Carney's. That was it. That was the theme. Every every town wide party should start with running the sheriff out of town. I think that that really sets the vibe in a fun way. Yes, I agree. Yeah, this movie it was fun. Like despite the many, many, many, many problems it was it was good natured and like being good natured scores a decent

amount of points with me. Because a lot of a lot of trans movies, and I'm gonna call us a trans movie, it doesn't call itself that. Sure, A lot of trans movies don't don't have joy. Like a lot of movies about trans characters. The miserable people are like the women, the men, whatever, they generally are just miserable. I was up for a role. I turned it down because it was basically a trans woman, a drag performer

trans woman. It was kind of the same thing. That writer didn't really understand the difference, and it was basically this this person just gets beat up for twenty minutes and then just gives up on their dreams. And it's like and they're like, I could see you in this role. I get you can like I hope not because a happy person Jesus Christ. Yeah, and I mean, like you mentioned Gina, this coming out from like, this movie came out as a like a major studio released, It had

huge bankable stars in it. It opened as the number one movie for like the first two weeks of its of it being released, so a lot of people saw it. And also, let's not forget that this movie came out like at the height of the AIDS epidemic in the US. So for this to be such a major movie that is just such a like fun can't be romp, not without its problems, but a romp nonetheless. And that it wasn't, you know, tragedy porn the way that so many trans

movies are. That's something. I was so inspired by this movie that I ordered Susan Sontag's on Camp essay off of Amazon, but I was not inspired enough to actually read it. So so I almost movie almost so close. Let see that. I feel like that it is like it's the middle of the road, you know, like I'll spend four dollars, but will I follow it through? I don't know. I'll get to that. I'll get to that Sontag essay someday, but it didn't inspire me to, like,

you know, reacquaint myself with the theory of camp. You know. It's it's something that i've I've you know, hey, i've been I live it, I can't be live. So yeah, I I felt inspired enough do that. So it's it's fun. And now Susan will just be waiting for you. Yes, well we'll do. Yeah. The context of this movie is

very I get. We're just gonna keep saying like the context of this movie is so specific that like understanding the exact circumstances this movie was produced and released in two was at least it didn't solve the problems, but at least kind of contextualized them a little bit. Where like you were both just saying that the fact that this is a movie that is fundamentally like created on joy.

It's fun. It's funny, it's a comedy at its core at the height of the AIDS epidemic, like was was it seems and that seemed like it was a big motivating factor in making the movie. Where there's this piece on the Advocate by Mitch Kohen, who used to work at Amblin and then later became a teacher. His life

story is interesting. Well we'll link it in the episode, but essentially he was the only out employee at Amblen for a long time and really advocated for this movie to get made, particularly because of wanting to see a movie that had just had joy in it at all. And another thing I thought was kind of interesting about it. So the director of this movie, I did not. I have not heard of this person before, but apparently she also directed a Bridget Jones Beben kid drawn? Am I

saying that right? I think so? Yeah, been kid drawn? I think that's right, with all due respect to be been kid drawn if I'm getting get wrong. Um, But what I thought was interesting was there was like this movie seemed very easy to cast, where it sounds like

Wesley Snipes and John Leguizamo were in right away. The part was written specifically for Cheechi Rodriguez was written specifically for John Leguizamo, which again it's like I wish that John Leguizambo and Douglas carter Bean could have like talked about it. It gives if John Leguizama was playing a trans woman and Douglas carter Bean was like, I'm Douglas carter Bean, like he's Douglas carter Bean over here. Whatever.

But I thought it was interesting that it was, I guess, very hard to find a director for this movie, much harder than it was to uh find stars, where they asked a number of male directors, and according to Mitch Cone, every male director passed because of course they went to male directors and they're like, get the broad I guess, get the Bridget Jones girl. Okay, here we go. Bring in Biban. Uh. You know, it's like for what, I'm like, Okay, you know, Biben Biban did it? Uh? And I didn't know.

I just didn't know who had directed this movie at all. And then also the piece references a lot of how and I wasn't exactly clear on whether this was true or not, but when the movie came out, there were a lot of kind of, you know, light accusations that it was ripping off Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, even though it sounds like they may have been in production at the same time and Priscilla just came out first,

but they were definitely compared a lot. They came out really close, and I think it was just one of those like convergent things. But Priscilla wea does It was a huge hit that got Oscar nominations and got critical respect that to Wang Food didn't get. So I think that was just an unfortunate bit of timing on their part. But it happens. Yeah, we should cover Priscilla on the

show at some point. Absolutely should another except I believe in a while since I've seen Priscilla, but I believe that is an actual trans woman played by Tarrance stamp In in that one. So there is an example of a trans woman in the drag community way back in. So they did, they did understand that could happen back then.

They just chose to ignore it, right because the character in within like in the movie, is identified as a trans woman, yes, and as living as a trans woman, and she wears like regular lady clothes when she's not performing, she just dresses normally. She doesn't she doesn't pull a pull a Vita and does you know, go around in full face and and boostier to the gas station. The gas station would appreciate that, But that's that's a lot

of work. It's a gas station, a lot of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was definitely in production by the time Priscilla, Queen of the Desert came out, so it wasn't like a rip off in that way. But yeah, most people were like, this is just like an American rip off of person cashion in also choreography by Kenny Ortega. Wait really Yeah? But then it made me think, like, what even scenes or choreographed besides, like the drag shows. So I mean maybe he just choreographed those drag shows at the very

beginning end end. I wonder. Yeah, I think that would be it. That's all the choreography that I can call. I love a Kenny moment. Wow, shout out Kenny Artega again, the King of the King of Disney Channel Original movies himself. Yes, um, let's take a quick break and then we will be right back. We're back. Um, do we want to unpack that Noxima monologue? Yeah, I think it's I think it's relevant. I think it's relevant to to understand the time. Now

we can avoid certain terms that they were using. Just know that they use them. They use them outdated terms. Yea. And most importantly so NOx Ema does this whole are talking about the one where NOx Ema is telling you the different types of gay man you could be. But yeah, just yeah, basically, yeah, so here's what Noxima says, and yeah, I'll refrain from some of the very outdated language that

gets used. But according to Noxima, quote, when a straight man puts on a dress and gets his sexual kicks, he's a and then insert outdated word. Um, when a man is a woman trapped in a man's body and has a little operation, he is a insert similar but different. A lot of problems with that statement, yes, to unpack there beyond just the technical terminology. And then when a gay man has too much fashion sense for one gender,

he is a drag queen. So these are the three ways in which, according to this character, someone might wear a dress that hasn't historically than a person that would wear a dress absolutely right, right, that's that's what they're saying.

That's what Noxema is saying. And yeah it's and MAGAZINEA is like explaining this too, chee chee for reasons, right, just for conflict reasons that they just they're they're just designed not to get along, like that's just that's basically you're like sid Field, you know, gotta have characters and conflict, Gotta what Hollywood movies are all about characters arguing with each other, so they just invented arguments for them to have and yeah, it you know what though that for

that that is even a little outdated um to say the least, but like, but like, that's that's what people would talk like, That's what people who didn't understand would talk like. And I remember as a closeted trans woman on the internet back then, trans girl, I guess you underage whatever, But like back then, you didn't know about pronouns. You didn't know that, you know, throwing the words sex into into the subjunctive of of a term gives it context that you don't really want to put in there.

And that's what people thought, like and probably to them, and back in the day, they were just high fiving each other, like look at how smart we are, like we we got this covered, like this, we're educating the audience here. And that's the kind of thing that I said at the top of the episode, I avoided watching this movie because I didn't want to come to terms with certain things about myself because it was too scary at the time. And that's exactly what that's speaking to,

because like that's what I thought. It is exactly what I thought at that time, that you're either one of these three things and there's no other place for you, and none of those sounded like me. None of those sound like very attractive options, except for being a drag queen, which is a fun fucking job that I actually tried and failed. That so because I just I do not have too much fashion since I am barely enough, so

you know, doubt stuff. That's why I wanted to talk about this, because that was like, I didn't get triggered by that scene. I'm gonna all have been on this planet for a long time. Lots of other things have happened to me, but that reminded me of how I thought back then, and how a lot of trans women thought back then that I would talk to on the internet. Were they you know, there was no good place for us.

We were either we were a gay men or we were a straight men that we're just getting their kicks off, and like there was there was no place for us unless we had surgery, but then even then you're still a he according to this monologue, right, yeah, yeah, this monol like miss genders trans women multiple times in one sentence, multiple times, Yes, absolutely and operates, like you said, on the assumption that if you're trans, you have to have surgery,

you have to have surgery. Absolutely, yeah, which we know better than that now, but kind of we kind of don't. In two thousand twenty one, if I were to get arrested as a as a woman who has not had gender confirmation surgery, has not had bottom surgery, I would go to male prison and I would die absolutely within minutes. And that that's the reality. It's not my reality, but that's the reality that a lot of trans women face. They go into male jails, they get they get shoved

into these unsafe spaces because of their surgical status. Right, And so you know, you you you're still to this day, you're still being reinforced that you have to have surgery. And maybe I will, maybe I won't. It's not a huge priority for me right now. I'm having a good life right now. But maybe I'll decide that's what I want later. But I don't want to feel unsafe. I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to have, you know, some cop in a mall in

Tennessee give me a genital check because of whatever. Stupid law, they come up without there because of that. So that stuff is still happening, and that's that's the reality we live in. That's and that even then, even the community, even our community, had that position, and a lot of us still do. I still to this day, and I don't mean to like take over the show here, but I still to this day, we'll run into two gay men that will conflate my sexuality with my gender, with

my presentation. I have a lot of jokes about about gender. I was at a stand up show at a gay bar and I was telling him this joke I tell about straight men. Straight men are bad sex, blah blah blah, you know, stuff that we all know. Hey, Like, this gay guy starts heckling me. He's like, but if you're having sex with him, he's not straight. Yeah he is, I guarantee you. I know from first lill experience man as straight as a fucking board. Maybe some of them aren't.

So I've had sex with probably men to fucking fun, but you know, there has nothing to do with that. So that's still that that attitude is still out there. This guy should have known he was a little older, but he was not so old that he didn't. He couldn't have been inundated with this information over the past us however many years. So this this scene is is I think key to the critique of the film. It's

a bad scene. It's cringe e absolutely, and it's something I don't I didn't really enjoy, but like as a as a document of this film and the enpirement that it came from, it's absolutely key that we discuss it. Yeah, it's again, it's it's like something that I wish that the writer has been pressed on at at any time, because you're totally right, Gina, where it's you know, Douglas Carter Bean chose to write this story. So if he's choosing to write this story, that you have to do

your due diligence and talk to people. And you know, he also had to have been well aware that he was one of the only writers who was writing a mainstream story like this, and how like spreading misinformation and half asking anything like there is a higher risk to doing that because no one else is talking about it to a mainstream audience. It's just it's really frustrating and

and very of its time. But just like, uh, it's it's it's so frustrating that like this scene, I don't even know what to say, Like they're the mental gymnastics you have to do to even get through that. Um, it was hard to watch, absolutely, Yeah, very hard to watch. I I audibly gasped at it, and I don't normally do that, but I did there, and it did take

me out of the film for a minute. Yes, I I agree, should we have pressed the writers and I want to press the writer absolutely, But as is typically the case, those marginalized people who are perhaps the least marginalized he's still in mail, often are the ones that are the first you know on the scene and have have an imperfect perspective on it. So there you go. Yeah, and then for that monologue to end with the nusomic character.

And also I think I read a lot of articles about this movie that interpret that monologue in the way that no Sima says, like when a gay man has too much fashion sense for one gender, he's a drag queen. And then that's I read a lot of articles that that people interpreted. Okay, So like Noxima is saying, that's the category that we fall into, even though I'm like,

did you watch the rest of the movie. But um, and then the way the sentence or like the way the monologue ends is Noxima saying to Chee Chee, like, you're not a drag queen, You're a boy in a dress. And when you look at it through the context of

these are trans women. And then for another character, who for all intents and purposes is a trans woman, to say that to another trans woman, yeah, I mean, as as a trans woman, I can tell you trans women are awful to each other sometimes, so that happens not always were usually quite eyes to each other, but sometimes

we're terrible. The thing that I took away from that scene other than what we've been talking about, is that there's really not any motivation for it, and so you kind of have to fall back on what the movie gives you, like what is exactly Noxinous problem with Chee Chee, And like they don't give you a whole lot other than the fact that she's young and that there's this weird racial undercurrent things that she says, so like you

just get the kind of the impression. But Doxine was kind of a racist, which is which is the motivation behind that scene for her to talk like that. It's yeah, it's it's not good. It's it's like, I just don't trust that Douglas Carter Bean really knows what he's talking about on a lot of levels here, And yeah, I don't think he does. I think you're correct on that, Jamie, I think he does. I think that I think this is what happened. This is what Douglas Carter being in

my estimation, that is what he did. He talked to some drag queens and he probably listened in on some drag queens talking to each other. And you know, you're both comedians. You know how people get when they're around each other, and like sometimes specially back then, you can get kind of rough and tumble. And I have no doubt that drag queens of different races were throwing racist jokes at each other. But it came across kind of ugly in this movie like it was it wasn't. It

just felt racist. It just felt like they're being racist. And that's probably what he's missing. He's missing, like there's supposedly some context here, and just don't put it in there if you just don't do it, you know, don't if you can't do it right. And there it really is no right way to do it. I mean, some some things you just don't need to put an n a PG thirteen comedy, a bunch of a bunch of racist jokes probably that probably qualifies as that, so leave them.

It just felt it just felt like Noxi was being racist towards Cheat Cheet just because she was beings because she was racist, because she kept saying racist stuff to her throughout the entire movie up until that point. It just made the character unlikable. Yeah, for that bit. Now, Wesley is doing a great job being a likable person, but that seems it's brutal and and Vita says racist ship constantly too, like there and and it kind of

for Vita. Vita's character for me is so she's just hard for me because there's so much like I guess I'm interested in what everybody thinks, because it was there were so many times where I was like, I wasn't sure if I was supposed to be on Vita's side or not, where it seemed like either Noxima or Chichi We're making a very valid point to her and she'd be like, no, we have to do this, and I'm like no, Vita, like, listen to your friends, and then plot wise, she would end up being right like and

that happens a few different times, like where at one point with the cop where us trying to decide, you know, should we stay should we leave, and Noxine is kind of like, no, we have to get the funk out of here, like this is a real and present danger, and Vita's like, oh okay. But it's like Vita's whole core quality being that she, you know, perceives herself to be very pure of heart and wants to kind of be this fairy godmother to the world. And that happens

again with Carol Anne. It's just I don't know, Vita was was tough to crack for me. I think I think that we should discuss the relationship between Vita and and Soccertani's character then, because that that formed a big component to this film, because it really that's where it really bites off more than it can chew. Among many other times, this is this this plot line is where

it bites up way more than it can chew. Yeah, And it's part of a larger issue that I have with this movie in that it's about three queer characters who end up focusing all of their energy on helping straight people. And this is like a trope that is commonly seen in like rom coms and other genres. This is also a trope in my actual life. So total I am I yes, unfortunately, this is this is something

that happens. I am, I am constantly called in that's character witness some straight persons woud that is not fair to you? What is that? So we see this a lot where Usually the situation is that there will be a straight protagonist in a movie who has a gay best friend, and the only thing the queer best friend is allowed to do in the story is to basically just give advice to the straight person. This movie like dials that up and says no, the three main characters

are queer people. So they're not even like the side best friend characters. They are You're like three core characters and they are still doing nothing but helping straight people who are like the secondary characters. Right there, there's still the queer advisory board. Yes, right to the point where at the end they're like removed from the action and they're on a balcony. They're not even at the party. They're right, they're levitating above them. They had to hide.

Ye yeah, I just I think the subplot with the Stalker Channing characters. Stalker Channing's character is is that that's Carolina. Her name Caroline yea. So her character is she's running the house that the queens are staying at, and she's in an abusive relationship with her husband physically abuses her.

And it's pretty it's pretty up front about it, Like it's not like he's openly abusive and unrepentant about it does makes no attempt to even hide it or anything else, and everyone just kind of this is this kind that's what it does. That's what that's what he does. How it is, And like Vita's purpose in the film at that point becomes, you know, enabling this labeling Caroline too to move on with her life and get this bad

man out of it. And again, the movies is buying off way more than it can chew at this point, Like it's it's totally inconsistent and you end up just not doing the subplot justice. Glad you have, you know, really charming actors stccer Channing, Patrick says, a great performers, a great charming performers. They do a lot to sell this stuff, and I think Hollywood movies especially, they are reliant on on the charisma of their of their stars just to sort of paper over the crap that they

have written for them. Right, Because similar to how after one little like lesson in Manners and Etiquette, NOx Ema is able to cure a whole group of bullies who are prone to sexual assault, Maxima cures the sexual assaulting bullies and then she makes a mute woman talk. There's there's a lot, there's a lot of translating magic going on this thing, which the way disability is treated as a gag, like as a joke with that character is

obviously not acceptable. It's so it's it's it's. I mean so much about the tone of this movie is bizarre, but where where it is very much biting up more that it can choose, Like, well, if we want this to be a comedy, why why do we keep introducing these beats into the story where exactly like everything is so upsetting? Why you have your insiding incidents some sexual assault when they could have just had the car breakdown,

Like doc Hollywood does the same plotline. Cars from Pixar does the same plot line, but they don't they're not they're not motivated by this extra character, especially because he's not really posing any threat to them except for the very end of the movie, and then that is very easily resolved immediately this formal wall and like that's it, and run him back out of town as quick as

he came. It's so the cop the cop storyline is is also just so frustrating because it's like taking a very very real issue of i mean, on multiple levels, on how police treat trams women, on how police treat people of color, where he uses like racial slurs back to back, Yes, hard racial slurs, not not even euphemisms.

He's going he's going straight for them. Yeah, and and and then assaults Vita and like these things all happened back to back to back, and then this character just becomes a cartoon as the movie goes on, and it's again it's one of those things where it's like, well, Douglas Carter Bean, like this is a very real issue that it's like, if you want to keep the movie this light, then don't introduce that plot point, because it's serious. They could have exercised Chris Penn's cop character and not

have had any problem whatsoever. They could have every beat could have been preserved without that piece, that person there. But that's that's that's again, that's Hollywood stuff. They're like, that's a that's an exact question that exects asked. Where's the danger, where's the concept, where's the danger? That's what they expect, especially when you have queer people, like queer people in America where they have to be imperil otherwise

it's not being authentic. This is one thing I read in their temporaneous reviews is that people were critical of the film not being dark, like you can't have queer characters and without having the you know, run through the muck, because then it's not authentic and like that sound straight people view queer life and it's not that. I mean it is that, don't get me wrong. I I have an absolutely you know, I have an absolute heart attack once a week. Uh, just dealing with the straight world.

And I have a very sheltered life. I do you know, I'm in a safe city and like I'm I'm a I'm a I'm a white person, so I as far as the trans woman goes, I'm pretty sheltered. But like I still have to deal with stressful situations. Sure, I just I just wish that. I just wish the film we're just better about it or just didn't put them in there. Like, if you're gonna have this lighthearted rob

where everything is fabulous, just be it's totally fine. Yeah, at the very least, and this is like minuscule and surface level. I was like, at least, this is like one of the few movies from this era that isn't afraid to show a cop character being a bad person and a racist and misogynists and etcetera. But like, again, this movie is not equipped to handle like so much all of that, So yeah, just get it out of there.

But as far as the subplot with Caroline and Vita, you know, basically empowering her to leave her husband, and there's this weird beat at the end where the abieceive husband looks at her and it looks like they're going to get back together. They give like this weird wondering about that look at each other, and then he just sort of walks away, and it's like, I don't think you get it. I don't think you get this get

this at all? Douglas Carter Bean, right, I was like, was that her being like, now go on and get or was that her being like maybe, yeah, we're going to figure this out. Like yeah, the most the most generous because it's open to interpretation. The most generous interpretation that I'm willing to give it is that she was she was adopting this power pose to be like, look at what you missed out on. You could have had this empowered woman and he begrudgingly gives her the respect of,

you know, not being an us all and walking away. Yeah, that is the most generous interpretation that I can give to the scene, but it is open to many other interpretations. Yes, yes, yeah, and and and Gina, I think you're saying this earlier. But like the scenes where he's vague physically and verbally abusive to her are very intense and to be explicit, and the way that they're presented, and it's just I

don't know. We we just got to talk to Douglas Carter Bean about all of this, because this is like, okay, the if you want this to be a fun rob but it would just be so jarring where sometimes something very upsetting would happen and then the music would be like do do do do do do do just like I think, I think. I think in Douglas carter Bean's defense, he has a fun name to say, so I'm sure that's why we keep saying it. He was He wasn't the composer, he was at the editor. The whole thing,

the whole thing, even Kidren. The whole thing is there's a there's probably a lot of people that just missed the boat on it. But yeah, yeah, there's a lot of dissonance. So so when we say Douglas carter Being, we're really we're really meeting the executive creative team. But it's just it's a much more fun thing to say that Douglas carter Bean. We could say Douglas carter Bean and company, company and company at all, the grand Douglas

carter Bean. Yeah. In conclusion, this movie is trying to tackle a lot of things that it's not equipped to tackle. There's also but it's and then there's like another confusing component, at least to the cop character, where he's hurling these racist slurs, and that's part of what lets us know that he is a bad person. And then the movie turns around and has Vita and NOx Sima hurle racist slurs and very racially charged comments to Chee chee. And

that's just how the ladies relate to each other. Question Mark, Like, that's exactly I would be remiss not to at least addressed Chechi Rodriguez Um as a character. So again, watching this movie, I remember watching the trailers back when I was a kid and seeing che she and being like, you know what, I could be her. I'm not fabulous in that way, but like we were. We were very physically similar, same size, same basic complexion, and like I

saw myself in that character. And that's like the reason why I didn't watch it, because I didn't want to see myself in this character. I I picked up that Chechi was a trans woman watching it back then, because she she more than any other characters. She she was moved and was addressed and talked and even though she was very like loud and out there, she was she was very much She's much more natural in presentation than

than the other two women were. Like she she was allowed to have a little bit of a romance, even though she to sacrifice it. Again, that's the whole other thing again again Again, we're sacrificing stuff for the straits to be happy. We're sacrificing our happiness. There is an argument that that Vita makes where or maybe it's Naxy that makes this where it's like, you know, de woide things, you're hot, but wait till he finds out that he's not. You're not what he expects. No, it's true. I mean

there there's definitely a safety issue. And that's why I am very upfront when I date anyone about what I have going on. But like the Chiche character, I really have to applaud logos almost performance in this and like and yes and yes, it's true. He's absolutely correct. It should be this should have been a Transploman. Should it would be a trans Wloman now if they were to make a remaker or a musical adaptation like they're planning.

But he really imbued the character with a naturalism and with like just an inherent sort of interior femininity that the that the maybe the part didn't really call for, but I picked up on, you know, back then, and I was afraid of it. And I you know, if I had seen that, if I had been more brave, maybe I would have a different path in life. I don't know, maybe not, but I just wish in some world that she was able to get the boy. Yeah,

that the storyline, because it's so disappointing to me. Another moment where I was just like Vida and yeah, why are you doing this? Let let the girl be happened, the girl on the and the and the cute country boy be happy together. Yeah, especially because this this movie, it sounds like it is like presenting itself as this like amazing like Romp, where it's like, I feel like the tone of the movie lends itself to cheat Chee getting the boy. The tone what absolutely would have supported that.

And also that boy is way older than Bobby Lee. That wasn't that was not a relationship. Bobby Lee and the Bobbies get together in the end after Chech lets the boy Bobby down and like they did like no girl boy. I was also I was like, she's a teenager question mark. But then I looked her up and she's only I think four or five years younger than John like Wisamo that actress. Yeah, it was it was confusing.

It was confusingly presented. I thought she was supposed to be. Yeah, she's characterized as being quite young, and they did nothing to clarify that. Yeah, so that was icky. And then yeah, we we we have this story where even though Bobby Ray has known che Chief for all of twelve hours, he's spray painted a Coca Cola sign to say, like, I love you Chee che I mean the tone kind of again, the tone supported that. It just the tone. The tone demanded that they get together, and then when

they didn't, that felt like a narrative betrayal. That felt wrong. Yeah, yeah, because their story up until that point is very sweet and pure, and it's you know, once they arrive in the town, you know, it's each of the Queen's kind of go on this like side quest where for Vita she is with Carol Anne and then uh Noxima is with Clara and then there's a whole thing going on there that was kind of fun. And but with Cheech, it's like Cheech has the best storyline. She you know,

meets Bobby Ray. It's very cute. They're like falling in love in this very movie like way. It could have been. It could have been the notebook for trans women, That's what I'm saying. And it wasn't missed opportunity, huge missed opportunity.

It really sucks I was. I was very frustrated that that happened, and and that there is that conversation where all three ladies are in their shared room and and I just Vita is so frustrating to me, where I mean, Vida and Maxima are being very cruel to cheat Chee in this scene, they're characterizing her as being selfish for wanting to be with Bobby Ray, which is like ridiculous, and it's like, well, what what entitles Bobby Lee? Like what entitles? Yeah, just because she's a cis girl, Like

that's I guess that's it. Yeah, it reminds me. It reminds me of some like it Hot Is, like from the fifties. And in the end, so Jack Lemon is Jack Lemon and the other character they're in, they're in dragged to basically high out from the mob, and Jack Lemon's character is is being courted by this guy. And then in the end, like the very ending scene, he's like, you know, I'm actually a man, Like he wasn't trans

or anything. He's like, I'm a man. I'm hiding out and that guy they that was courting him the whole times as well. You know, nobody's perfect and that's the last line in the film is Nobody's perfect and like implying that I still want you Jacque Lennon, like they did that in the fifties. Yeah, they're okay, Marilyn Monroe movie, the biggest movie that year, had that ending. Yeah, and this movie four decades later, couldn't even fathom the idea of a trans woman and Bobby Ray. Yeah, they couldn't.

They couldn't do a Nobody's perfect. They did it in ninety six, though, whenever that movie came out, right, God, with that context, it is like three times more if you're infuriating, And it's uh that that scene where Cheech is understandably upset that Vida and Noxima are just completely ruling out this romance for her, and she says another thing that you're just like, as one audience member, You're like, yeah, CHEECHI is totally right where she is giving via ship

and saying, I'm sick and tired of this freakazoid white lady telling a black and Latin lady way is up, down and under and just you know, kind of calling Vita out for thinking that she knows what's best for everyone and that her like code of morality is the universe's code of morality. But then the plot acts as if Vita was right, and so it's like, that's another narrative example where it was like, well, does the movie just think that Vita is right about goddamn everything? I just, yeah, yeah,

I think it does. I think I think the movie was just allowing that like pushback, like acknowledging, hey, all, this is also a point. But also, bet this is correct because Vita is because the mother of the cast, so she has to be the correct one because she's the mother. That's what archetypically, that's what they were thinking. I love doing podcasts like this, and I love doing my own podcast that is very similar to this, but like I always end up like kind of hating me

after after we're done talking about it. Did I enjoy this? Did I fun watching that? Didn't I laugh? Most of the time, I've I've had so many former favorite movies of mine be like, oh funk, I can't like I was. I was literally enjoying this movie two days ago. We fucked up with our career choices, and it's especially concerning for the movie to make it seem like Vita is

right about discouraging Chee Chee from pursuing this relationship. When Vita is saying stuff like you're being devious, you're lying to this boy because Chee che has not disclosed her situation, whether that be here like to trans status. If there was an arc to that, if there was an art to Vita being shitty and coming to realize later on that she was being shitty, that it would that be

a different story. Characters are allowed to be shitty or totally if we're just a movie where people are just shitty to each other, if we're just Glen Gary Glenn Rosster, trans woman, that would have been that would have been a totally different thing. I would watch that. Glen Garry Gun Ross can suck my butt. Wow, Wow, strong words. That's it's a strong response. I know what I'm choosing

for my birthday. We're doing Glen Gary Glenn Ross. Truly the most boring movie I've ever had the displeasure of watching anyway. But yeah, that means so totally we should If they were going to do that, then we should have seen some some like come around moment where he was like, yeah, I was wrong. But of course the movie doesn't think that she was wrong. That's the problem

movie things. She's right. Yeah, movie thinks that trans women shouldn't be with straight boys, the straight boys should be with straight girls, and you know, never the Twayne shall meet, and that apparently queer people shouldn't be with anybody like well, you know, for three centered drag queens. If we trusting the film in internal logic, these are drag queens. These are the least sexual drag queens I've ever seen. I've been around a lot of drag queens, and they there's

some dirty ladies. Like I said, I attempted to do drag in Florida. Bad choice, by the way, Florida not the place to do drag for no other reason. The humidity, of course, uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. But like I, you know, I you know, I had a drag mom and I had like I to drag moms. I had an evil

drag mom, and I had a good drag mom. And like the evil drag mom was on crystal meth and was like this total disaster, but taught me all the short cuts, and the good drag mom was very much very much like Vita, almost the same person, but taught me like this kind of like backward like Republican version

of drag. But they're also you know, very horny ladies, both of them, and that doesn't necessarily not every drag queen, not every gay person, not every clear person is horny, but like there was no sex whatsoever with these any of them. They were just fabulous and they mostly talked about their outfits and you know, and and the and the capitalists struggle and like they and I get it,

it's it's assist film. But like it's like they had room for racial slurs and no one could be horny, Like right, yes, exactly, they had room for racist no one could be a morning take out the racism put the horny. Yeah, that storyline just really bummed me out. Yeah. The last Vida character assassination that I have to do

is in that same scene. And this is kind of where the where it becomes clear that's like, oh the movie is just is going with Vida's view on things kind of in in this just very clear way of like the movie things, Vita is is the correct person.

Where they are hearing carol An be abused by her husband. Um, which again, why why why is this happening in a Romp and again, I think Naxieva brings up like a pretty nuanced point there where Vida's like, well, we have to go help her, and Naxiema says there are times when you help people and then there are times that if you help people you end up being killed, So then you don't help people, which is like a pretty you know, I feel like in logic it's like, well,

you have to help everyone at all times, but like if you consider the context that Naxieva's saying that in where again it's like a potential safety issue that it's like, well, you know, I, yeah, she's got a point. She's absolutely as a point, but the movie of course doesn't reinforce that there is no actual They're never in any actual danger. Everything is easily solved. But yeah, no, I that was really weird because like, yeah, Noxy is right. Unfortunately Noxi

is right. You do want to help, but not in that way like you know, spirit her away later on when when the coast is clear. You know, there's a lot of things you could do that, aren't you busting down the door and beating the ship out of this guy and you know, putting yourself in danger with the log. You know, again, the tone of the film allowed allowed for this to play out in the most in the most flattering way that it could. This is a fantasy movie.

It absolutely, it's like hard fantasy. Unintentionally kept reaffirming the white lady's perspective as the correct one, or maybe intentionally it did, I don't know, but it didn't seem it didn't seem to don't seem to entertain much room for argument. That's the other thing too with Vita is that she's the only character that we have any backstory on, and

she's like the white character. Because they drive through Vita's hometown, we find that she's we find out she's estranged from her family, that she you know, gave up her family's wealth because they didn't accept her, and then we don't get any To be fair, they don't do anything with that backstory really, but you defended out. Yeah, you totally just drive on like them. That's where I used to live. Okay, cool,

moving on while we're on a schedule. So that's it's like especially weird then too include that since it doesn't even pay off, but it doesn't come back, you can't help but notice that the other two characters don't get any kind of backstory like that. Not really, you do, at the very least you get a sense of what Noxima wants to do. She's like, I'm gonna go Sorry, there's a million sirens, but she like, she's like, I'm gonna go to Hollywood and I'm going to be discovered

and I'm going to be in the pictures. And she's like a huge film buff and right, and she she has an arc, a bear arc, but an arc where she's like, is gonna have to deal with me? So she has a little bit of something but no history. Absolutely right. Yeah, I did enjoy that scene with her and Clara the Yeah, the woman that she gets to speak for the first time since I think that the reason she didn't speak for a long time is because

her husband left her. It was some something like that has been related affliction that that that has that has got to be some sort of like anti Bechtel cast anti Betel Teth. The man leaves and the woman can no longer speak at all. It's like Ariel the Mermaid style, just like her voice is in a seashell somewhere. We don't really know. He took he took the voice with him, oh god, with his ties clunky as hell. But I liked that scene between the two of them. I like,

Wesley Snipes is very good. They're all very good. Is it made me wish she had stuck them more comedies. He's so funny in this movie. Yeah. Also, he got totally snubbed because Patrick Swayze and John languis Almo both got Golden Globe nominations for their roles in this movie, but Leslie Snipes did not. Yeah, well, you know, there you go. That's good old. I mean, that's the Globes

for one. That's wee we finally canceled down and it was like took us long enough, but like, well, like yeah, that's a there's a lot of cool little scenes in this film. That's a great scene. That's that character, actors, He's fantastic scene or a million things. Leslie Snipes is so good in that scene, so good in this movie in general. That that's the stuff I enjoy, is the stuff that's not the plot. It's just them hanging out.

And I think I think that's what most people enjoy, Like like, no one really is, Like when they talk about the positive aspects of this film, They're not like, well, you know they really that third act turnaround was really awesome, Like they it's just the people being people, which is what most movies are, just the people being people. Yeah, it's the queer characters fixing the lives of these straight

people and um giving them makeovers. I was talking to a friend of mine, straight woman, and she's dating this guy, older man in in Las Vegas and she wants to spend the week with him, and they were staying at his friend's place for a couple of days, and basically his friends were like, we don't understand trans gender. Explain

it to us, white straight lady. And then she then she was telling me all about how how she you know, she explained it to them, and that you were fighting with her and then she got it and she's looking at me like do I get up? Do I get a cookie or something like that? And I'm like, and she's basically like, what what would you What would you have done? Well? If I were in that situation is what I said. I would have left because I I don't want to do that. I don't want I don't

want to educate the straits. That is not your burden to bear not my friend. And you know, if a if a room full of Trump supporters as me to explain transgender to them, that's a trap. I'm I am leaving that room in Vegas, no less, in Vegas, not less, where the desert, everywhere? Yes, yeah, leave the room. Break up with the guy whose friends are those people? Yes, go away? That's like that happens again. Don't do that? Just go away? Yeah? Does anyone have anything else they'd

like to talk about? You know? I again, I enjoyed the film for what it was. There's a lot you kind of have to just roll with it this movie. But what it was to me is a movie about three trans women that are friends with each other. And even though they say a lot of weird racist it isn't necessary or or at all desired. They were friends and they were nice and they had fun. And that is a quality in queer cinema that we don't see enough of, especially in the limited experience of trance movies.

You know, when I was picking films to discuss with with y'all, I wanted to discuss something trans related because that's my experience, and I think it's important that people with the experience talk about their experiences. But I also didn't want to pick like a downer and like that's that's a tough one. Like I want to talk about queer Joy, I want to talk about trans joy, Like that's where that's where I'm coming from a comedian. I I like like fun and so this was what I

had to work with. And it and as that as fill in the correct terminology in your own head when they say drag queen to say transpleman in your head, just make the edit in your own mind and it'll be a little better. And just ignore. Go go make some key during those couple of scenes, and we talked about otherwise, it's a it's a fun little romp. It's

a fun rump. And yeah, for for anyone who especially like when this movie was coming out, when there were so little other options for queer representation in cinema, especially queer Joy. So for anyone who saw themselves represented, who saw themselves in those characters, that means a lot. That's we we don't want to take that away from anyone. What we do want to take away from someone is what's the writer's name? Against want to take it away

to the pen from Douglas Carter be and company. Uh no, with all to say it really fun to say it with all respected, Douglas Carter being uh your name is wanted to say, we're taking your pen um? Yeah, yeah, what what? I hope and I watching this movie. It for all of its faults, it is such a fun romp and there is so much joy and it is just like fun to watch these ladies be friends and you know, navigate conflict in a very dated way, but

they're navigating conflict in their friendships. And I hope that this is the sort of movie that, you know, just paves the way for for more movies like it that you don't need to you know, plow through the dissonance, and that there there will be more movies that are just like translators on a road trip, like having fun Like that sounds wonderful, like let's get that. One thing I did like about this film, and from especially refreshing,

is that there were no coming out discussions. There were no like when did you know you were different type discussions, which is basically what so many of queer representation was. It was you were either talking about coming out or you were dealing with some terrible disease and or social affliction. Yeah, like there there was other textures to their life, which was very very refreshing for me to see something from that time that did that for sure. Yeah. And I

like the chee chee wins at the end. I mean, that's that's her consolation prize for for you know, losing the boy. She gets. She gets, she gets the crown instead of the boy. She has the sacrifice her love for, you know, to become royalty. Yes, exactly, because that's that's her head wigging the angry inch moment. She's she's just she sacrifices for success. That's another movie we have to cover. Okay, Sorry, this is like I promised the last thing to say.

But like Bobby Ray again, it's just like a character logic thing, but like he just pivots so quickly where like he's love with cheechee cheese is the love of my life. And then she's like not now. And then he's like I'm going to get married to I was like, do you just what is what's going on in your head? Bobby Ray? Walk me through this. He just loves the woman who is closest to him. He loves loves remember

her love was love in love with love. Whoever is geographically closest to him in that moment, that's who he loves. By the end, I was like, he's not good enough for you, chee cheet, this man has no he's easily Yeah, no he really wasn't. But like they could have made that into some kind of character work that they could have played with that. But now that was just bad writing. That was just straight people. Now they're being straight together.

So many things get like too easily resolved or inexplicably resolved, or things will go on a weird trajectory that doesn't make any sense, you know. So goes the ROMP. So goes the ROMP. Yes, straight up. Uh So, let's talk about the Bechtel test as it applies to this movie. If we are operating on these three women being trans women,

then yes, the movie passes all the time. It passes the Bechtel test handily because the characters are so neutered they have no real sexuality except for Cheat a little tiny bit. She's basically like she's basically like this nineteen fifties like Peyton Place type at that point, right, So she's she has she has romantic interest but no sexual interests. But the Naxi and and Vida have have no sexuality whatsoever. Just about so, yes, it passes the Bechtel test. There's

probably some other test that it doesn't pass. We don't know what that test is. There are there are definite tests it does not but um oh, Actually I do want to shout out the May test, which was created by transactor and filmmaker Kylie May, and the May test examines trans representation on screen. We will link to some information about that. It's definitely worth checking out. I also want to shout out a few lines of dialogue from

the movie that I enjoy. Um. This one is from Carol Anne tu Vita says, I think it's really important for a woman to have lady friends. Nice do you are you? Including in these lines the last bit of dialogue between the two of them that weird exchange where she's like, I don't think of you as as a man or as a woman as a woman. I think of you as an angel, and then the responds with

I think that's healthy. Healthy response blew my mind. I You know what though, I actually kind of enjoyed that response because as a trans worman I have had plenty of straight women tell me new straight says, women tell me that they think of me as an angel or as you know, some sort of superhuman or whatever. Like I've had. I've had plenty of like women confess that I'm some sort of like thing beyond humanity. Yeah, some sort of like walking got us among us, and like,

I'm far from that. But it's better than it's better than hate. So when Vita says, I think that's healthy, that's kind of my response is, like, well, it's better than hate. I think that's healthy. I think that's that's something. Anyway, That's what I took away from it. That was the one that was the one moment from like Vita's perspective, from like, yeah, girl, I I get it. Take take the W, take the W and just walk away. I

liked Swazy's delivery of that line too. Yeah it's just fun. Uh. And then earlier in the movie, Carol Ann also says, and this doesn't technically pass because she mentions men as a concept, but she's like, I think we should get rid of all men. But I feel like that does pass the Bechdel test because but then also she's like, but we can we can keep mel Gibson. Oh yeah, yeah, it's but then she says he's not allowed to think or speak, and I was like, that's better. Okay, has

an improvement. If mel Gibson has to be alive, I too do not want him to think. You should not think mel Gibson is allowed, but only as an automaton do it? Um? Yeah. And then we've got our nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples, in which we rate the movie based on how it fares looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens. So it is, as

we've discussed, very much a product of its time. Understandings of gender identity, gender expression, sexuality were things that most people in did not have a very nuanced understanding of, including everyone who made this movie was so unintentional, I intentional good stuff. Yeah. So, you know, it's not gonna fair great because of that. It's not going to um fair great because of all the casual racism the many of the characters display, including two of which who we

are supposed to be rooting for. You know, it's it's got of a lot of problems of the time. But then but then you have again, like queer representation, misguided though it may be in a huge movie with huge stars that a lot of people saw that it does, you know, celebrate queer joy, which was very rare for that time especially. But even so, I feel like I can only give it like two nipples because bringing it back around to the because thing, I will give one.

I'll give one to cheat chee. I'll give one to the conversation between Noxima and what was a character's named Clara, Clara who they talk about movies and like old Hollywood stars. I really liked that scene, so very sweet and I learned things. I was like, I always love when the movie sneakily teaches me something, right, Yeah, scene, yeah, totally that scene Noxima is like, oh my, one of my favorite actors was I forget the name of the woman, but she's like she she's a black woman, but she

never Dorothy yah. Yeah, she never. She never played the help and she was in all these amazing roles. But then she, you know, the white Hollywood machine like chewed her up and spit her out, um BRB, gotta go be racist to cheat, And it's like, what are you talking about next? Em And the way that scene ends to where it's like, I don't know, I love old Hollywood stuff. And when Clara ends it by being like, let's do Lena Horn next, and I was like, oh, this seems so fun. Yeah, that was a that was

a cool little scene. Scenes where the people are being people are great. I would I would have to rate a slightly higher on the nipple scale only because of its relative um as a queer person. We're so used to being forgiving of our texts, understanding the flawed as they may be, because they are so rare, we we have to kind of like we have to love them even though they are imperfect. We have to love them anyway because they are ours and we have so few.

Totally fair. So I'm going to give it three nipples based on that, and really highly disappointed into casual racism, and that's probably the thing that makes me detract from what the most, as well as it's incredibly poor depiction of of domestic violence, because those are those are completely unnecessary. Those are generally unnecessary anyway, but they're completely necessary to the to the film, and the film just leaves them be basically, so an imperfect vessel of queer joy. Yes,

I'm going to give it three nipples. That's how I feel, awesome, Jamie, what about you? I guess I guess I'll split the DIF and I'll do it two and a half here. I I don't think that I have anything to say that we haven't said already. But the casual racism in

particular was really frustrating and unnecessary. And the fact that they were able to justify certain things, be like certain instances of violence being there, but then they wouldn't allow their three queer main characters to have love lives is

just so. Dare I say there? There are a lot of elements that watching this in are frustrating, But I also, you know, want to hold space for in respect for the fact that this movie was made and was a success, and that it was pushed for at a time where movies like this we're not pushed for in the mainstream and this is a sucking Steven Spielberg movie like and and knowing more about the context that this movie was released in, you know, doesn't fix things, doesn't make the

most glaring issues that this movie has better, but it did help me understand and and you know, at least give makes me hope for romps like this that are not burdened with the same issues that this movie is burdened with because they tried. I well, U it seems like they tried. Okay to two and a half. And I'll give one to chee chee. I'll give oh Naomi Campbell is in this movie for a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'll give one to her. And I will put the last half in the trunk of the car

and see if anyone finds it later. Just really quick assigned my nipples. I've forgotten that this about this part. A critical gets a nipple, obviously, I will say Naxi and that's and the lady in the talking about old movies and Darky Andrews gets just gets a nipple. And I'm gonna say that the final nipple goes to the too Wong food scene, which we completely the very opening scene where we're not very opening, but the opening scene where they're stealing the picture off the wall and they're

being kind of racist towards each other. Yes, absolutely, but that scene, in that bit where Vita steals the picture, I'm giving a nipple too, because it's the only transgressive thing Vida does in the entire film. True, she is she is. She is such a saint every time everywhere else in this movie. But she steals the two Wong Food picture, steals the Juliannumar picture because it speaks to her, and then she gives it away to stop your channing

as she starts her new life. So to Vita stealing to Julie Numar, the insiding incident that the titular Julie Numar to Wong Food Picture, I give my final nipple. Two beautiful and Gina, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for you for having me. What a treat to come back anytime. Thank you. I'm sorry we ruined the movie. No, it's okay, okay, But now that I have, now that I've been on the show and I've spoken for for trans representation, should you have

me back on. I'm going to talk about something not trans because I have more than that to me. I am a big fan of the Fast and Furious franchise. I'm on many other things, so we can go on and on about all kinds of stuff. The next time come back on fore nine is that yes nine, and they bring the Asian dude back from the dead for a second time. So there you go very excited. I have only seen the first two and then Hobbs and Shaw, so I need to catch up on my Fasts and

the Furious. That's just a for instance. There's all there's a there's a whole hundred and twenty years of cinema out there that I would love to talk about. Anytime you guys would have me back, We'll open it up. We'd be delighted, love it. And then where can people follow you online and check out your stuff? Check out your upcoming tour dates? So all my socials are at Gina Bloom, j E and a B L o M.

That's mostly Twitter and Instagram. You can find me in the fallow September, I'll be touring the southern US Asheville, Atlanta, New Orleans. More dates to come. I'll get that up there, and also New York City because I am originally a New York lady, so I'll be returning there. So it will be both the South and New York in the fall. And the new season of my podcast We Jamie and Caitlin have already been on and we had a delightful time. We'll also be premiering in the fall as well. I

talk about movies and other stuff. It's all it's all about translating, making fun of bro stuff. So you enjoy me talking about this. You can find me on my show talking about Bruce Willis movies. Please and please do please check it out and you can check us out on Instagram and Twitter at Bechtel Cast. We've got our Patreon a k a. Matreon. It's five dollars a month.

It's to bonus episodes each month, plus access to the whole back catalog, and it's at patreon dot com, slash Becktel Cast and you can grab some merch if you're so inclined at t public dot com slash at the Bactel Cast. That's where all the stuff is incredible. And with that to Gina Bloom, thanks for everything the facts, Caitlin and Jamie, are you guys? That was heartwarming? Thank you, thank you for everything everything, Bye bye