This Christmas with Miles Gray

Who are we really? Jamie? Do you ever? Who am I who? This is the thing that my my boyfriend will say a lot. This is not passing the Bectel tests, by the way, but something something my boyfriend will say a lot about the podcast he likes. I'm like, well what is that podcast? Like, what is the podcast about? And he'll say something akin to like, well, it's about this, but it's really about friendship. And I was like, Okay, first of all, that's annoying. Second of all, maybe that's

what we'll say from now on. We're like, well, it's technically about movies, but it's really more about our fringe. That's so nice speaking, which I, uh, well, wait, we should say what the podcast is. I was it's going to be a countdown for me until we can start talking about the parallels between Idris Elba's character in this movie and Macavity. Oh my gosh, I had a lot of a whole analog to how this movie is basically the movie cats. He's basically well, I I didn't pick

that up, but I was like the Cavity energy. Anyways, we should say what the podcast is. Okay, this is our podcast about movies. We examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a way to just inspire the concept of talking about film through this lens. And Jamie, what on earth is the Bechtel test? I don't know. Well, in this movie, it's when your mom comes in your room when you're using a vibrator and tells you that your career can't keep you warm

at night. But what it technically is, but it technically is is it's a media metric invented by a queer cartoonist, Allison Becktel, sometimes called back the Wallace test, that requires, for our purposes that two people of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man. Uh and and most movies don't pass it. And I would say holiday movies it gets even harder to pass yeah, because everyone's like, why don't you have

a husband yet, daughter of mine? This a movie does? I mean, this movie does. Like spoiler, this movie does pass the backtel test. But there are some really funny ones, um like when mcdeer comes in and says, your vibrator isn't going to keep you warm at night, you know, and she goes mom, and then you're like, well, I guess maybe, but they talk about batteries, batteries, genderless icon batteries. True,

let's pay our guests in. Yes, we've returning guests. We've we've rolled down the one am I saying, when the what is the wording we use? We we've taken down the embargo. Yes, we've we've unlocked the cage that we keep all men on. Jesus, So I guess today returning from you remember him from the Rock episode, which is where a lot of running gags in our show were born between Gregnant between his wife, lots of lots of gems.

You could say that the Rock episode was gregnant with and gave birth to several running gags of the Bad Book Cast. Anyway, The Ark was a very gregnant episode ext eight months gregnant, that whole episode, much like this one. There's a Gregnancy in this one. I was. I was like, there's better be a Gregnancy in this movie. And you know, thank god, it's a little late in the game, but the Greatnescy comes through its present. Um and you know him as one of the hosts of the Daily Zeitgeist.

It's Miles Gray. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm I'm truly honored to that you allowed me back. When you even asked you like, hey, do you want to talk about a movie on I was like, on your podcast Bechdel Cast, where my sort is not allowed At the moment, I was very confused, But you know what, I'm honored that you have welcomed me back into the kingdom and offered me safe passage through the cinematic universe. Um.

So yeah, it's always a pleasure. And I happen to happen to people who I could talk to endlessly about anything anyway, so it's hardly any kind of a task for me. So when we decide, I mean, this is the same. This is happening the same month that Alfred Molina has been welcomed into the m c U. So, you know, Miles Gray's no cannon in the bc U. It takes two appearances to become canonically bc U. Thank

you so much. That's I feel honored. You know, Molina it has re entered the m c U. Uh now Miles Gray is entering the b c U. So it feels like a new day from me, Miles, great Leon has aunt is here. Also shout out to my sponsors right theon that gave me, gave me twenty dollars to change my last name. But it's worth it. That's incredible. I mean, honestly, I think you could have gotten more. I don't know. I didn't want to be greedy, you know, I think, you know, little Company, a little mom and

pop organization, just destabilizing the whole sections of the earth. Um, Miles, what is your relationship with this Christmas? Well, oddly enough, which is the movie by the way, this one very tortured relationship with this current Christmas, with this particular Christmas. Um, I you know, oddly enough, it's a movie I've watched.

When it came out in two thousand seven, I was in a really weird place at the time, getting off of getting out of college to an economy that was like vaporized, and then also like awful break up where like I didn't know who the funk I was anymore.

So I was I was. I was watching a lot of corn unplugged in the dark on my bean bag chair, especially with with Amy from Evanescence comes out to do freak on a leash um, So that was sort of like, that's like the vibe I was operating in, so I I So I watched it then, and oddly enough, when you asked me about this Christmas, I was like, I just watched it last night, like the night before you had asked me about doing it, So it's I don't know,

it was just it's it's there. But I hadn't seen it in years, so it was like going into it new, Sure, sure, Jamie, what about you? Uh. Like many movies, I've seen like chunks of this movie over the years on like T n T and like when friends were watching it or roommates were watching it, but I never like sat down and watched the the entire thing, which, honestly, I mean this movie really does like demand a hundred percent of your attention if you're trying to follow. There's so many storylines.

It's like love that it's love actually level number of storylines, but worse because they're all in the same house, and you feel more like, well, I should know everyone because we're not just like going across the country to these other, like desperate story lines. I'm like, wait, is that a kid or a boyfriend or a spouse of the There are so many times where I'm like, did I miss something? Do we not know who's who's? Like? What job does this person have? Whose? Whose child is this? It took

me a second to figure out who. I thought that it was Kelly's children for a second, but it turns out it was Regina King's children, and then I was like did I And then I went back. I'm like, no, I was just supposed to know that. I was supposed to know that, right right right. There's also like a cousin Fred or something that shows up now and then, but he's like not important at all, but important enough to take shot at how many kids he has? Like how many kids? For you? Guys six seven. Also Madere

has six children, Like, what is she passing judgment? At least she had it with Senior. You know, I guess, like I think they're trying to make it look like Fred has a bunch of baby mommy. There's a lot of weird, shitty tropes in here, but you know, it's but that's what Christmas movies are about. It's usually not a nuanced discussion of fucking anything. So and Chris Brown is there. I really hate to see Chris Brown and there. It was my pleasure to fast forward through all sixty

thousand Chris Brown musical Monton. Yes, credit to his manager or agent who basically when they negotiated that was like he will sing entire songs in this movie and you will not edit them down one fucking bar. Because yeah, Chris Brown, this is like I mean, and this is sort of like shortly before his career and his like he starts to really be called into question, right, because that happened in the late two thousand's, But like, yeah,

that was like she's that was a nine. Nay, it was after this movie, but I don't know exactly when, right, Yeah, I don't. I mean, he was still you know there he was still just had minimal tattoos. His neck wasn't tatted yet. You can always tell like where you're at because like as the tattoos fielding, and you're like, okay,

now we're getting into like scum Chris Brown phase. Um so yeah, I don't know, it's he's he definitely brought people into the theaters that Like when you look at that line, if you're like, we're letting an algorithm tell us how we're going to get as many asses into the seats. Yeah, and he's so prominent on that. I was looking at the posters where he's like takes up a third of the poster even though there's twelve people

on the poster. Right right, it's like Chris Brown's this Christmas. Thankfully, he's actually not in that much of it, like it's mostly other people. But but almost every second he's on screen, he's just singing, singing, singing. That said, I enjoyed this movie, Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I hadn't seen it before. Um,

I liked it, okay. But generally movies that are like character driven, family narratives that don't really have a distinct plot aren't really my type of movie, so it's not a rump that's kind of rumpy. I would say that Adris Elba's uh storyline is very rompy. It's like in Ocean's eleven in the middle of a family movie. They give you all kinds of you. They give you even like Star Wars Daddy Issues reconciliation vibe. But there's also there's like more melo drama than I enjoy in a movie.

So I'm just like I was here for it. I love I love the melo drama. I'm it's a it's generally a pass for me. But also and I don't generally the only Christmas movie I like is Muppet Christmas Carol. Every other one you liked print too, sort of did you like? Have you seen New York Christmas Wedding? I

have not seen New York Christmas. The lgbt Q one that like Netflix put out where it's basically this like woman who's like about to get married to a man is visited by an angel who sends her to a parallel reality where she could have come out to her best girlfriend that she was in love with and play out a life where she would have just honored her like feelings about her friend and had like this beautiful love affair with this other woman. But then like the

thing ends and it's like all right, now choose. Oh my god. It's like a very very weird way to present that sort of quandary for a person of like this angel being like, Okay, you want to test drive this other version where you embrace this relationship. Maybe not, but anyway, those are some steaks I didn't know that existed. Yeah, check it out. I mean, because this is the thing I love about Christmas movies is that they're so just.

They can be anything. They can be like sincere and earnest and you're like, oh, this just happens to be happening during Christmas. But for me, the best ones are like absolute trash where there's so many plot holes and you're being like, they didn't even think when they were writing this. I for whatever reason, that's like a salve on my like like tortured creator wounds and don't like see people can get absolute shit made. It is like if a Christmas movie took more than forty minutes to write,

it took too long period done. Michael Keaton's Jack Frost took eleven minutes to write the entire screen. Yeah, that movie was fully improvised. So I went to high school with one of the snowboard bullies from that movie. Wait, I think you've told us this before. That's iconic, that's incredible.

He was Unfortunately, that kid was living in his sister's shadow, who played the daughter in Jack Frost, And he only got the part because his sister was one of the leads, and we made fun of like that's how toxic l A School was, Like, dude, you only got it because your sister was a lead fool and you barely You don't even have like a U five part under five lines, um, Like I don't know, wow, growing up in l A sense, I mean yeah, I think it's also jealousy because he

also had like he like brought us snow. I feel like he bought brought like a snowboard jacket from the set to school in like the l A heat and we're like, dude, we get it. So then we just turned on him or like whatever, bro, your sister got you the gig roll like a twelve and ship. Well.

One of the things I appreciate about this movie is that there's l a Christmas representation because so many Christmas movies take place in like New York or Chicago or any other place where it's like cold and snow eat during Christmas time. So I appreciated that you have just like, you know, mild weather Christmas, like you know, yeah, like Jacket's it, and you know, some people can overdo it.

I think it's like if it was truly Angelina, though, we would be dressing like it was negative forty below just fully costplay. Yeah, because like our Overton window in terms of what's hot or cold is completely screwed up. So we're like, yeah, what is it? It's below Vandy where mittens right now? Oh? Good grief? Um, should I do the recap story to the best of my ability? Yeah, it's kind of a lot. There's a lot going on. It's a lot curious how you're going to do it

with it and have it be very cogent and succinct. Yeah, everything's happening, and yet nothing at all is happening. The stakes from character to character are so wildly different that like they're just like wait a second. There's like in a wall pregnancy scandal, and then there's someone who's like should I get back into the dating world, Like everyone stas I got a camera, but mom doesn't like that I sing? Are these steaks? And then like Rosalba is

like being beaten up in every same season. But Buddies with his like transgressors. He's got to like they act like middle school bullies, but they are like thirty eight years old. They're like, yeah, moan, dude, They're gonna get me. Like this sounds like a seventh grade problem that he's having. I think Joe Biden wrote these characters. You know. It was Mo and Dude, you know bad dudes, you know, associates of corn Pop. Yeah, messing with my boy Quentin Jr.

Who was a jazz pianist. Like all right, Joe, this sounds very contrived, Like all right, Grandpa, let's go to bed, right, Um okay. So this Christmas the film is about the wet Field family. Madear is the matriarch. She has six sons and daughters who are all grown up and who are all getting together for Christmas for the first time in four years. And because this is a more kind of character driven story than a plot driven story, my recap might be kind of all over the place. So

just bear with me here. But um so, it's a it's a few days before Christmas. Madear that's Loretta Divines character lives in l A. She owns a dry cleaners, and her romantic partner, Joe played by Delroy Lindo, is the kind of step father figure to her kids, although they are not married and a lot of them don't know that Joe lives in the house with Madear, and everyone's being very like two thousand and seven about it

in a way that is very weird to me. I was just like, why can't just be happy for Medear? Like why are we whatever? The main thing is like, well, we'll get to this, but Quentin, you just Elba's character hates Joe and like that's why she's like keeping into secret anyway. It just Elba's character is secretly twelve years old. That's like, my that's the only way I can rationalize some of his some of his choices where he's like I don't get it. Why aren't you married to my

dad anymore? And it's like, this is twelve year old culture. This is not like oh and literally telling Joe you're not my daddy. Oh okay, sir, we got that part when we knew that. I think you're also in adult and we don't need to talk like that right now, right Like, I feel like people should come down. The things that people come down Quentin hard for, like being a musician, don't make sense. And the things that they take really easy on him, like being aggressive towards Joe,

who has never done a thing. People are just like, well, you know, he's sad about the divorce. You're like, he needs to he needs to, you know, grow up, figure out by by all measures. Quentin Senior sounds like a piece of ship. If I was on the family to be a fucking musician. Uh, that's not an honorable person. Sorry so, but but again that's but that's the thing, like we don't have these fucked up relationships with our parents, and even though on paper it's bad, we still idolize

them and wrong. There's so much depth to that. It's true. It's true. I like Joe. I like Joe too. I love Delroy Lindo, you know, and whenever when he puts

a good performance, like it felt weird. He felt like he was classing up the joint acting like I was like, oh, you're too good right now, this is a little this is a little bit of holiday trash, and you're like earnest performances like Shakespearean wait to the whole thing, even like when he would have it out with interest elbow, these tense moments were like he's like, you probably should stay away while I'm around, because you know, I don't want you to hear what my mom is, Like why

don't you take that up with your mother? And he's like, I will. And then del Roy Leno just does like great like reaction acting when he's like yeah, like about to say something, measures dials back and then goes on.

You're like, wow, okay, del Roy, he really that whole scene, there's like just a scene where he's just hanging up lights and getting a little frustrated, and I was captivated because we're supposed to focus on what's happening in the background, which is Kelly coming home from a one night stand with McKay peiffer, who proceeds to stop her for the rest of the movie, but in a cute way, but in acute way when he's very suddenly like dressed up as Santa with her niece and nephew, I'm like, this

is like this is the end of that story line. And if we can't depin you, but we did in the normal world. There's a text that's a girl. You're not gonna believe this motherfucker showed up in Santa outfit. I didn't even call him. I'm trying to get him to leave right now. No, just the one time, not since then. No, he brought gifts and ship too like once they like as if he knew what they wanted. This is you run even a cursory bushemy test on that it all falls apart. Stu Bushemy comes the next

morning into Santa Suit. You're like, it's not going to end well, You're like, get out of my house. Um, okay. So we meet Madeer and Joe, we meet Baby. That's Chris Brown's character. He is the youngest member of the family. I think he's a senior in high school about to

graduate because he still lives it. They like make it seem like he's still in high school right even though he's yes, but he's acting like again, he's acting like he's tent like he's always like hunched over like he and also twenty five because like I'm singing at a nightclub snuck out the age right. They never like, they never specify really how old anyone is supposed to be, which works to the movie's advantage because I'm like, I don't know what I would believe. And then the rest

of the family starts to arrive at Madeir's house. Lisa that's Regina King. She arrives with her husband, Malcolm that's laz Alonso. They have two kids together, who could not be in the movie less if they tried. That's fucked up. It was weird. And another like moment when I was like, I'm so fucking confused, like when I was watching it last week and I'm like, wait, who, who the who's fucking kids are these? And why are they being neglected the whole film? Like they don't exist in the reality

of the film. The fact that they're even there is introduced so late in the movie, and then I was still like, wait, who whose kids are these? And then you're like, oh, like, oh, okay, that makes sense that

I don't know. The way that they're introduced was very confusing, and then they're like in the background of two scenes, they don't even sit at the table, Like the table I honestly thought in the first like soul Train dance line that they did as a family, Like when Quinn comes home and one of the kids was there, I honestly thought it was an intruder. I was like, who the funk is? And like, y'all aren't really you're just gonna act like okay whatever. I'm like, this family is

on some other ship. You know, those infamous child intruders. Yeah, I don't know exactly. I'm like, Yo, one of these little cutesy thieves is in your house on Christmas. You've seen this a hundred times. You know the script already, that classic Christmas troupe. Hey, it's me, your other little grandchild.

You're gonna take the presents, you ink. I don't know why they talked again New York Burglar from the twenties, but given Adris Elba's character, you know, I believe almost anything, right, Okay. So then we also meet Kelly. That's Sharon Leal. She works in New York. I think in advertising. She went to Harvard. Her main thing is that she's a terrible cook. A lot of jokes are made at her expense about her being really bad at cooking. Don't forget she also

has a vibrator, and she has a vibrator. Yes, she's one of those Harvard non cooking knows how to pleasure herself types. Huh, a modern feminist think. But we're told we don't like that. She's gotta she's gotta marry the first Santa she has sex with. Right, Look, you beggars can't be choosers, especially when you suck up making cool aid. The fact the fact that she's literally like a Harvard grad who happens to be single and doesn't seem to be bothered by it, And the movie is like, m

she's gonna start dating Santa. You're just like, what, yeah, for this character, what you're laying out for me? I do like that they did honor the trope of talking about Harvard all the time, because like it's one thing like when a black person goes to Harvard, it's always talked. It will never not be spoken about. So I really appreciated how like Harvard was constantly getting beat over the

head once in the same way. Like, and I think in like more like white culture that it's the trope of I went to school in Cambridge or what is it, Boston, went to school in Boston what's the vague thing that people say, did not say they went to Harvard to small college in Boston. Okay, well, this feels like a great time to bring up that I went to a school in Boston. It's called Boston University, and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting from that institution. But

I would never bring that up never. What did you think of some of the writing? Sorry to derail you. I know we're still doing this synopsis, but there are some lines of dialogue that I was like, there were some head scratchers there. I had some fun ones that The writing to me was pretty decent. I think I would say some of the soundtrack choices were what we're really puzzling to me? Yeah, Well, the interesting thing is that Marcus Miller was the was the person in charge

of music. And Marcus Miller is like, oh fucking well, well respected jazz musician um and like played with like Miles Davis and Ship. So when I saw that pop up, I was like, Ship, Marcus Miller is like the fucking musical director. Like he's a talented bassist. But it had that like stale jazz brunchie vibe to the soundtrack. It was very Yeah. I was kind of I was like, I don't know how much of this is like two thousand and seven talking, but it just it did sound

very like generic. I had my favorite line um was there because I generally like I thought, I mean, it's super tropy, but whatever, it's a Christmas movie. But my favorite line that was bad was anytime Malcolm, the like cheating husband is talking. The way he talks is so business vague in a way that I thought was really funny, where he's like, at some point, like Kelly realizes that he's cheating on her sister, and he's like, you know, I gotta fly back to San Francisco signed some papers.

It's business. There's a sentence and then he says on the phone, I'm in escrow. Let him know he's doing deals. Man, he's in escrow himself right now. Sorry, I'm in escrow right now. Probably when I get out, Like it sounds like business to me. I don't know the other thing he said I was. I think when we were talking off Mike the other day, j B. I was like, there's some business investment tropes or just takes that are just really weird where Malcolm says that buying a Cadillac

Escalade is a good investment. And that was like the most two thousand seven shift I've ever heard, was like a good investment. I'm like, that is not appreciating in value. How is that a good investment in any way? It's also like one the most famous like gas guzzlers. Yeah. Well, I think also for me to at that time pulling up an escalade, there there was no higher vehicle in black culture, you know, like a Cadillac and then big

body SUV Cadillac. But I just love that he was so like insistent in that seems like damn, I've got the good investment. I'm just like, that's don't even have a character say that out loud. The car is not an investment unless it's like to get you to and from work or some kind of classic car. Right. Yeah. I suppose there's some questionable writing choices. I think, like store,

like the emotional arc of different characters. Yeah, but that is fun the Yeah, there there were a few things here that were kind of like, oh, this happens right before a big recession, and you can kind of see You're like, oh, I don't know how this ends, and how does this where you know, where are the wit Fields in two thousand nine? We never we don't know. He didn't get a sequel. Yeah yet, I mean maybe they had they sold their business just to get liquid.

That's true. That's true, right, and let's see that's a follow up. We don't want we don't need that. Yeah, it's like, I don't want to know they live in two thousand seven forever for me, Like what if they're like yeah? And then baby became Chris Brown. Also at the end of the movie where there's a really long dance sequence and then you're like, oh, it's not even the characters anymore. It's just it's just the actors. It took me a second because I was like, they just

did someone just accidentally call him Chris? I was like, oh, no, I guess we're just actors now. Yeah. It's just like it's like like the end of a play where the cast comes out and gives like a like a fun bow. Was like the movie equivalent, like let's do all do some dancing. And then I feel like I was kind of turning up the volume because I feel like there was some like ship talking going on. I'm gonna have

to watch that again. But there was a moment where I feel like someone made fun of someone else is dancing and they're like, I don't give a fuck like someone I felt like there was an exchange like that, whereas I was like, oh, wow, you're really doing It's like, come on, I'm sucking trying. Like there was like a

dismissive grunt that I think is audible. A cast at that large you have to think that like there has to be like some pairing that doesn't work well when there's a cast of over ten people, You're like, okay, two of these people don't like each other, right, but you just never know who like Lauren London and Delroy Lindo hate each other there. Well, I feel like Delroy Lindo still sends everyone Christmas cards. He just seems like

he would. Oh he seems like a you know, as you're like, they come visit me, man, Please visit me anytime, Please come visit me. Remember that movie from thirteen years ago? Yeah, I was just I was just telling you. I was just calling you have to tell you how much I like the Five Bloods. Yeah. Remember this Christmas Man? You said we were going to hang out after that. I know you're busy. No, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, And you don't want to hang out with

an old guy like me. You know, I was in Congo. He played a very weird like everything, like like central African general in it. Anyway, I digress. Yeah, let's return to the Actually, let's take a quick break first and then we will come right back. Um. So next to come home as Claude. That's Columbus Short. He's in the military. I think that's really all we learned about him for a while. Then Mel that's Lauren London, comes home. She's

in college studying pre law. She brings home her boyfriend Devon. And then last to arrive is Quentin Idris Elba's character. He's a jazz musician who we've seen get into like a brawl prior to this birth breakaway glass in the first scene, like he smashes a bottle over someone's face and then jumps up window. You're like, oh, this mcavity. I remember I was watching with her Majesty, and we paused it after that because we're like, is this a

Christmas movie? He just glassed the guy in a club and ran for his life, like it had the didn't I mean, I guess the jazzy Christmas piano would give you a hint, but like it had the oddest energy

for the opening for Christmas pilem. It was such a weird that being the first scene really does not set you up for it establishes the tone that does not maintain itself throughout the kind of you don't know, what would you say, doctor Durante about the writing there, or what would Robert McKee say as such heavy handed ex please call me Master Durante, And I would say that the point of attack of a film, which is like

basically the opening, what how we opened the story? How the world and the characters are first introduced to the audience generally does a few important things, and one of those things is to establish tone. And would you establish a tone that then is deviated from for the rest of the story. It's a bit jarring. But what if Mo and Dude come back every once in a while and say, hey, remember us punch? Punch? Is that nice? Is that word that provides a little bit more fluidity

and consistency? However, it is I will say, a strange choice as a way to open the film I'm glad to know that was verified by someone with a master's degree. You're welcome. Um okay. So now the whole family is there. So this is like the first evening they're all there together, and this is where the drama really starts to ramp up. Um. Part of it is that Kelly has a strained relationship

with Lisa. She thinks that Lisa is weak willed and easily influenced and is too accommodating to her shitty husband, Malcolm, who Kelly openly hates. And that's one of my favorite aspects of this movie is how open, openly hateful she is to Malcolm, right to his face. So meanwhile, Lisa wants to sell Madear's dry cleaning business, and this is an idea that we realized that Malcolm put her up to. No one else is really on board for this idea, but this is kind of like a running thing throughout

the movie. Um Quentin hasn't seen his family in four years, and probably the main reason that he came home this time was that he is on the run from these bookies who he owes twenty five dollars too, and so he's like in hiding at his mom's house and the reason he's estranged from his family is one of my favorite bizarre specifics about this movie, which is that because Quentin Senr ditched the family to go be a musician, Madear feels that there is a bit of of a

music musician related curse on her life that if any of the men in her life even go go with him, I think canonically, within like six ft of a piano, um that they will abandon her. And um. So she's so it's it's almost she's like a little bit of like foot loose when it comes to women playing music. It's like, this is the movie Coco. I was like, did Cocoa see this Christmas and lift that very Cocoa

famously wrote the movie Cocos. But I was watching this, I was like, wait a minute, Miguel from Coco, this is like his whole problem. His his like a matriarch and his family was abandoned by a musician. And she thinks that there's like this now, this music curse on the family. So she forbids anyone in the family from like playing music or singing or doing anything. And I was like, wait a minute, there's there's a parallel here anyway,

it truly is. And then so Quentin has a strained relationship and part of it is is what we just described, this um kind of music related curse that Madear perceives to be on the family because like Quentin has kind of followed in his father's footsteps as a musician. Um. Okay, So then everyone goes to a club that night. I think we're two nights before Christmas at this point. Um, and a lot of stuff goes down at this club. Um,

it starts, all goes down. It starts with Claude wanting to go there to meet someone in secret, and we realize that this person is a girlfriend or it turns out that she's his wife and he's kind of keeping her a secret with an eye and the implication is that he's keeping her a secret from his family because she is white. But all his siblings tag along to this club outing, so he still has to like hush, like he's like, oh home, Sandy, go back to the

hotel and by home. Yeah, it takes a I feel like was I not watching carefully enough or does it take a really long time to figure out what their relationship actually is, because at first it's like it took me a while to figure out that she was his wife, and then and then also he's like making her live in a hotel. Like it just took me a long time to figure out what exactly the situation was there, and that whole storyline is so fucking bizarre. I wasn't

sure what I was like. At first, I was like, oh, is he like, is he has like a lover? That clearly I was like, there's a lover. And then I forgot that it was a white woman, and I was like, oh, ship, okay, does this have some like LGBTQ flavor? And then I was like, all right, this is a black Christmas film, so we're gonna go into she is white, a white woman.

He's meeting up at the club, and I honestly thought it was it felt like groupie ish or something like not a relationship because it's like, go to the hotel, I will meet you. Yeah, it seems like a casual. I was not getting white. I was like, oh, oh, he's dating a white girl. But then it was like, no, she's his wife and she's pregnant and she lives in a hotel. You're like why here? What? Yeah, that whole

storyline was baffling to me. Also, shout out to the l Ray Theater where that club is, because it's like every fucking movie, like like in l a like, it's always like it fucked up people's idea of what a nightclub was, which is basically just being like we can basically only shoot at the l Ray Theater. Like in the Mask where he does like his like cocoa bongo thing. I think it's the l Ray too. It's just a

iconic theater, which I in my mind was weird. That's set up with like stages, like a stage and tables is what I thought a nightclub was from like movies in the nineties that were shooting at the l Ray and then you went to one, You're like, oh no, it's a it's a really just shitty big room with couches in the corner. It stinks. Yeah, you can't you can't smell a building on in a movie. Unfortunately, No, that could change. But when I'm done in this industry,

that's all going to be a little different. There was like a smell a vision thing in in theaters for a while. It was wildly unsuccessful, but I learned about it in film history class. Really. I remember in the nineties Fox TV on Sundays they would have like these events where you'd go to a seven eleven to pick

up like whatever thing you needed to enjoy it. Like they would do like three like in Living Color in three D and you would get like those blue and red three D glasses and you would like they would broadcast like the three D version on the TV. If

you didn't have them, you were shipped out. But then they also did a Smell a Vision one where like you bought a there's a scratch and sniff card and like in an episode and be like, all right, now smell that because Al Bundy did sort of like one character on TV and it was Jankie Analog Smell a Vision, Thank you seven eleven, and do that for Nickelodeon cartoons at one point to like you had to like buy an issue in nick Glodian magazine and then you could

like smell a SpongeBob episode and be like, wow, Patrick, time to time to smell it and exciting damn it, I already sniffed up all the smell off of this car. Doesn't sound like anything anymore. Okay, so we're at the club the siblings have tagged along. There's also an open mic night that was I was like, oh my god, just the idea of like an open mic being like sprawled like some kind of show of with like full of amateurs a Christmas imagine doing a Christmas Eve open mic.

I just I mean I could because I longed to be in a room full of like other people, like in strangers again. But yeah, that I think people have experienced this, like going out where it's a surprise open mic and you didn't know you were at a thing that was about to turn into an open mic, and you're like, fuck no, I seriously don't want to be

here for this. Well, we've been on the other side of that hundreds of times as comics who will be on a bar show that no one else at the bar knows a comedy show is about to happen, and then suddenly someone walks up to a microphone. They're like com when he starts in five minutes, and then everyone at the bar is like, I don't care. I'm going to keep talking at regular volume and I right with the TVs are still on. It's a mess. Um. Yeah. Anyway, So there's this open mic night and like the first

to perform is their brother baby, who sings a full song. Uh, and they're like, oh my god, we didn't know he was a singer and wow, he's so good, but he's been keeping it a secret because of this music family curse thing. Also at the club, this is when gerald A K. McKay peiffer is making Google eyes at Kelly and then she goes home with him. She doesn't he said. He's saying to who can have fun? Could fuck? Oh Santa?

Fucks honey, blew my mind. And then there's like that scene where Lauren London is like, did you fox Santa? And then Kelly's like, yes, sure. And then also at this club, a few guys were seen hitting on Clode's lady friend. Again, we don't really know their relationship at this point. Um, so he pulls a gun on them, He pulls his surface pistol on them, and then later on he gets arrested, and that's when everyone finds out that he's a wall right, And that's also when they

find out that Sandy is his wife. For someone who has no plot for the first hour, the stakes for Claude go through the roof like really quickly, you shouldn't have gone to that club, you know, he shouldn't have. If he hadn't, we would know nothing about his character.

But also I think it's a lesson, right, you know, if had he just alleviated the stress of deceiving his family and keeping his relationship hidden, he may not have pulled it the strap out at the club on the guy, you know, because his family wouldn't know, like, oh, here was s meet up saying, oh what's up saying, but instead he's like, you get the fuk away from me. We tried, and he's already just like talking to and now my brothers is doing this thing. He's singing. My

mom thinks it's a curse. I think he had a lot going on. And then when those two dudes are like, hey man, no hard fearing bro, you know because the white girls they got booty, but they got the strong knees or whatever the funk that line was that set him off, Like okay, oh toxicity all around that. Like then it was just like now, fucking dick, this gun motherfucker's like, whoa this has big dude? Who is keeping

secrets energy? Who should have just just been communicative and forth threat I feel like a lot of stress would have been tamped down. And then Eatsala was like, you've always had this temper and it's like, what has he We haven't seen that, Like that should have been set up. He was so nice for the like he did not drink real pleasant and then said he's like pulling a gun on people, and we're like, where is this coming from? Well, that's what it shows you. That's what happens when you're

with a white woman. I think that's what that was being told to everybody else. And see they'll be like, see, see that's like that's like our cousin Randy. He's like that it's nothing, but it's Sandy and Sandy. It's so weird because he because later when Sandy shows up at the house, like there's a moment of discomfort, but then she's pretty much immediately accepted for the rest of the

movie and worried about basically nothing. Yeah, it was a weird thing where it's like my family could be, you know, really closed off to this ship and like those were the steaks and like you kind of but it was in that time, like in the two thousand seven mindset, especially for me, is like a you know, a personal color who dates like white women and all kinds just

anybody really don't discriminate romantically. But like that idea was like, oh ship, she's white, Like you're like back then, you're like, oh oh, you know, like it felt their worst because I think now we're in a bit of a we're more openly talking about things like that, where this was very much being like it's taboo and like that was really like the thing driving it, whereas now we're like, I mean, biracial relationships have been going on since well

before this film, but it was still kind of like one of these things. I felt a little like old school cultural trope that doesn't it's not work in the same way. But even then in the end, the family was doing the thing that was pretty much what most people are. I'm like, oh cool, Okay, you're in our family and you're gonna you're also the mother of one

of my descendants. Now great. But then there's a weird component where you part of it where you learn that her family doesn't know about her Gregnancy because she's like, oh yeah, they're not fans of Claude because he's black. So she comes from this like wildly racist family. So it's like again, so they attached these like really significant steaks that it's like you can't just say that and then not explore it at all, Like, oh you can't

because you can't. I'll tell you why because it's the black holiday film and all you needed is that moment where you go, yeah, I told you white people ain't ship. That's really what it did. And she's like, you see because they embraced her me while her ain't ship family

was like we're racist as funk. You know. I think that was like that gives because every holiday film, no matter what, like whether it's the length, like the lens of like an orphan or someone like, you need that moment of like yeah, we're a good guy, like you see that felt good right there. So I felt that

was that moment. And also for me, I remember I just when it happened, I sort of reverted to this like thing of like, yeah, see exactly, that's how just how should be sometimes I think for me too, because I've dated white women where like when I was younger, it was like, oh, like you know, I don't really want to like post anything on like foot Facebook or some ship like that and I was like well, and I was like, okay, yeah, I just I get it. I'm you're just getting off to me. You're just getting

off to my physical presence. M yeah fuck I anyway, but let's not digress because they embraced Sandy and that's what this is all about. They do. Christmas is all about opening your arms and your hearts and your homes to everyone. Mo and Dude, Oh, I'm sorry, let me I'll let you keep well. Speaking of them, this is also around the time that those two bookies Mo and Dude show up. Yeah, beat the ship out of Quinton for a while, and then they stick around and even

almost stay the night. There's a very weird dynamic there. But basically they will punch Quentin when no one's looking, but the rest of the time their masquerading is Quentin's friends and everyone buys it. It always feels like a home Aloney, Like it's like the tone is like they're just kind of the Robbers, where they're like, yeah, we're friendly, but we're gonna keeck yes. If you don't get the

good pal here right, Quinn gut punches. There's just such a weird they weren't even flying like the tropes of goons, like who are just like stupid guys who were just going to be like the threat of violence that exists in the background, Like they suddenly became like these goofball dudes who are also being like, let's also funk with him by like pretending we're friends and also like offer them a ride to the police station to get their brother out of jail. Like I was like, wait, are

you in now? It was really confusing what they're like. We know what their endgame is, but the way they were trying to get there really made no sense. I was like, are they just lonely? Do they just want to like spend time with somebody? Can we just sort of break out the financial aspects of them seeking restitution? Because where where was Quentin coming from? New York? San Francisco, Chicago? And they showed the Golden Gate Bridge that's to show

where Lisa's from. Lisa and her husband and her family live in San Francisco. I think I think maybe Chicago is where, So it was definitely clear him not it wasn't. It wasn't a quick jaunt away, so I'm thinking, Okay, so what are their travel expenses? Okay, well, how are we eating into this twenty dollars or trying to get back you know, gas lodging food. I'm thinking you're there's like there's probably what i'll call it three grand. Now you're looking at twenty two? Um, and who's that? Ohd too?

Is that specifically you guys? Are you splitting that twenty two? I started getting into goon math when I was watching it. They got to keep those south clean, yeah, exactly, And like, are you keeping receipts or expenses for your goon boss? I don't know, Yeah, yeah, because they do have a goon boss. I forget that his name, but they mentioned the goon boss that they're like collecting the money on behalf of Big Goon in the Sky. Oh gosh, okay Um. Then I am a little lost on the timeline here.

I think it's maybe later that night or maybe the next day, not sure, but basically there's now a big there's a big fight in the rain between Kelly and Lisa. They're pushing each other. Kelly's like, you're her husband's a piece of ship and you're you're a pushover and he's cheating on you. And at Lesa's like, wait a minute, maybe she's right, and then she goes and destroys his

aforementioned Cadillac escalade drives it into the l A River. Yes, big moment for the l A River right, which is for anyone who is not familiar with the l A River is mostly concrete with a tiny little stream of water, which is even weirder because it's a concrete stream and then a cutout concrete stream inside of it. Like when you look at it's like, this looks like a sidewalking Like where is the stream? It's like, Oh, it's that other weird thing. That's the depression in this concrete block

we're standing on. That's the river, that little Pepe stream, that river, that's our river. Um. So, then Baby finally tells Madeir about wanting to be a singer. She does not take it well. Meanwhile, Quentin leaves on Chris us even night. The Bookies catch up with him at the train station and beat the crap out of him, but Joe swoops in to save the day. Then we cut

to Christmas morning. Lisa confronts Malcolm about being a piece of shit and beats him with a belt like pours baby oil over the floor to like humiliate him all this stuff. That scene really like kept going on. Dude, that s he was. I was like, this scene, but you know you need that. That's the that's the like, yeah, that's like the thing that see that hap people cheering

into thousands. I had a note of that too. I'm like, I think that this scene is kind of longer for for like the theatrical experience and like watching it in a group, I think I'm guessing based on how we're all talking about this, we all must have if we were watching with someone I know. I turned to her managiny, like, this is getting a little bit a lot now. This is with the whipping of the black man in the bathroom, Okay, yeah,

but get yours though. I get it though, is you know, in the logic of these films, cheater equals bad, So yeah, I get your ass beat this is I mean, this is I guess. Yeah. Like Regina King, she's so amazing and she's so talented, and I feel like she's asked to play a spurned wife too frequently. It's but she does it well, right yeah. Um. And then immediately after that is a scene of the whole family in church where baby sings and then Madear is like, oh, wow,

he's really good. Maybe I should be okay with him pursuing music, which she says all of this with her facial expression, um like it truly is like, like you said, it was so capulus, Like I get it because it was so clear when you went and she's crying. She's like, Oh, everything's gonna be okay. And then the family sits down for Christmas dinner together. They have a nice toast about no matter what, we are family. And that is the end of the film. Let's take a quick break and

then we will come right back. Where do where does whose storyline should? I mean, we've covered we've sort of covered in some of it throughout the recay, But where should we start maybe just kind of starting in a in a sort of the general scope of things worth discussing a little bit. And we've talked about this on the many many Christmas episodes we have covered on the show in the past, that this is a particularly white genre.

Usually the cast will be entirely white, or that any characters of color will have only very tertiary role kind

of things. So for this to be one of the few mainstream films that features a black family worth noting, doesn't happen much, doesn't happen often, but it's still puffing that same old tropium of these Christmas films of like gender normative bullshit and like all this like Judeo Christian whatever the funk it is stuff, which is funny because it's always like to say, it's like it's still the same kind of flavor, you know what I mean, But yeah,

it's But it's funny because there are moments where, like I've definitely looked at it differently as a black person that other people just see like certain moments differently. But I think those are the moments that you're like, oh, thank you a movie that was kind of made for me as an audience member, pointing to things that I are significant to me or maybe seem insignificant to other people.

But yeah, right, but like you said, they're like, well, it's a Christmas movie, so we still have to make it palatable to audiences and really maintain a lot of tropes and holiday movie troops specifically, and like, yeah, so it's kind of it's in this strange place that also

feels very two thousand seven. Yeah, yeah, extremely it's and then then as as far as that, I mean, there's so many characters too to talk about, but I think, Myles, you're totally right where it's like, it's amazing that there's like a widely released black Christmas movie, but then within it,

it's all those Christmas tropes that are in. Like it's everyone is the most hetero person who has ever lived, and they need to be married yesterday, like that Christmas like, which I feel like is such a common like I mean that's every Christmas movie. It's like, why aren't you married? Why don't you marry? Hey? Look at that guy? Why don't you marry him? And then she goes okay, and that's where's the Christmas movie where like everyone just gets

fucked up drunk? Because that's more real to me than anything that's my Christmas. Yeah, Like I just remember going to other people's Christmas and I'm like, Yo, this is fucking dope. You guys just get fucking turned up and like that's what you do for Christmas? And he's like yeah, I don't know, Like we don't really go to church or anything. We get together, it's cold and drink. I'm like,

where is that movie? Like that even feels more real than sort of like it's it's like almost portraying the Christmas people want to avoid, which is like I don't want to go to my fucking house because of my aunt is gonna be like what are you gonna get married? Or like what are you doing for work? And that that, And I guess that's real to a certain extent, but it's weird. I was saying this in another show, like it's it's like these Christmas movies like their lack of flavor,

Like is the flavor? You know that it's not. It's not going to be too confrontational or subversive or make you question anything at all, aside from whether or not an escalated is a good investment. But like that's what it's. I think that's the draw is like it's a Manila envelope that won't offend you but also has a bow on it so it feels festive, but it still a Manila envelope. And it's a it's an autour film. It's

Preston a Whitmore, Whitmore's Whitfield. It makes you think President a Whitmore the second directed, produce and wrote this movie. Um so it's safe to say and like the research I did of like the interviews done at the time, it seems like this is like based on his family at least to some extent um, probably not all the

same Christmas, but who knows. The thing that mainly, the thing that mainly stood out to me in terms of like the many threads that we have going on here, is that I just wish that, like it's for for the women in this movie, most of their steaks are attached to a like romantic relationship with a guy, and then with with the with the men that the stakes are like very varied. There's like music curs guy, there's a wall guy. There's like there's a wall Nation guy.

There's like jazz on the run guy, like there's there's The stakes are so all over the like in a way that's really fun and engaging. But when it comes to Lisa and Lillie and Mel and even to an extent Madei, it's like they're all of their steaks are like something about my marriage or like I need a marriage or Mel I mean weird. I feel like Mel had kind of an interesting threat introduced at the beginning

of the movie that kind of goes nowhere. She kind of gets lost in the shuffle, and so I want to I wish that they were like the same kind of like silly Christmas movie steaks for for the women in the movie that that the suns have right, but even those stakes too and like the traditional Christmas think it's tied to like their role as homemaker or something.

It's like I have to get the gift for the kid, or like this Christmas dinner has to be good, which is like what I feel like the steaks are in like our traditional just vapid ship Christmas films, but yeah, it is all the steaks are like he's cheating on me, or like Santa fuck I hope Santa will fuck me, or it's just like a very odd thing. Oh one weird one weird moment that really stuck out to me.

It was this moment between Joe and Baby when the first day, Like I think it's one of the first scenes where Chris Brown gets a camera, so I got a night it's like the Rose Roy Sick cameras. I'm like, well, are we talking full format? I mean, is it a hustle blot or a momma? I mean photographers might actually anyway, that's a whole other Archtuk discussion. Um, but with him when like Joe Delroy Lindo comes out goes you got a camera? Huh Yeah. I remember when I was your age,

I wanted to watch but we couldn't afford it. And I was just like, what, at least the camera offers babies some kind of mobility like that, it can create work, but you just wanted some superficial like class signifier of a watch, like it just seemed like a It was like it just they just said it and went forward, and I was like, that didn't I actually positive, like that didn't make sense as finding common ground, like I don't understand aside from just being like I desired things

and I got it. I had that kind of stuff happened a lot where it's like to like, You're like I think, I think, I like, I might understand what that conversation was supposed to be, but it's just like sometimes characters just kind of miss each other in this very bizarre way where I'm like, I guess we're still

having the same conversation. There. Another thread that I thought was interesting in terms of mel and then it that kind of flames out right away is the relationship with Mel and Devon and how there's that conversation at the dinner table towards the beginning of the movie where Devon goes to Moore House and Malcolm kind of comes at him and like interrogates him for going to a historically black college and like he went to Yale and Kelly went to Harvard, and I was like, oh, this is

like an interesting conversation. But then it never that just goes away, like that whole that kind of disappearing. And then part of the conversation is people being like, oh, yeah, Mel has been in school for oh along, because she just keeps switching her major based on whatever guy. And it's just like, well, Kelly, Kelly has this huge problem with Lisa because she thinks she's like weak willed and easily influenced. But what like, look at what Mel is doing.

Why weren't you taking take to like miles of comments on the financials You're like, okay, they're they're like like when Lisa's like, we need to sell off our like we have to liquidate our part of the business because she's concerned that madear like that she's not gonna have enough money. But it's like, well, then a great way it would be for mel to stop going to an expensive college for seven years in a row. That's a great way to cut back on expenses for the family.

Is not seven years of a private college, Like it's just the money stuff is very confusing, right, yeah, it's all I think even with um the Harvard Yale versus HBCU thing is like they were that was a quick way to be like, those are the the black people in your family, like the ones who got went to Ivy League schools and forgot who they were or like you know, that was a very quick brushstroke culturally to be like that's who they are, and they came for

the person who went to more House, who then has like the much more articulated response as to why they go to more House, meaning you know, you sure you went to the place that people know about, but for my values as a black man and like I want to go to this school, but like it very much set the table like Okay, he's here and your Ivy lead people are down here because he just put the smack on you by explaining why he preferred that over your school, and it makes us like Malcolm, like it

makes it makes Malcolm's character clearer of like, oh, he's like an elitist asshole. But and but it made like that scene really I was like, Oh, Devin's cool. I'm excited to see where his story goes. But then you're

just like, where does it go anywhere? It was funny though, too, for him to basically like recite the schools like Mission Stayment and like really explain his beliefs in this way that everyone's like, wow, he's got a great head on his shoulders, because the scene right before that is him

barely able to say his own name. Yeah, right there with him would say I feel like we're just with you, come on, man, and then he's ready for like this intellectual battle at the dinner table scene, like and then the way that scene resolves is like, well, one thing's for sure, mel sucks and that's like the end of the scene. Here. It's like all right, just so many so many threads that you're like, oh, I guess that

didn't come back, didn't Well? Yeah, Really, despite all of like the women's steaks and storylines largely being attached to romantic interests as trophy and heteronormative as it is, I will say that I liked the women in the movie way more than I liked really any of the men, and I do appreciate it, at least with there being a focus on these these relationships they have with the men in their lives that we there's like a sex positivity component to this family that I appreciated that Uh,

Lisa doesn't have as much because she does call her sister a hoe, but they're like openly talking about sex and batteries to a vibrator. She's like, you really should switch to the woman either, honey. I like how my dear is like I want my kids to come, but I don't want them to sing. Like all right, I guess because I appreciate that, especially because a lot of like Christmas movies are so like and it makes sense because there are a lot of them are like family, children,

family move like appropriate for the whole family. So they're like, this is just so sex doesn't exist in these worlds, so that they that they talk about sex and like talk openly about it and generally have a sex positive

attitude among the family. I was like, Okay, I like this, yeah, and it's like that not as I mean, even like in that opening montage where like my dear and Joe or I mean, it's not like they're not fucking, but you're like, oh, this this movie is like more open and like less I don't know, yeah exactly, Like you're saying just less holier than now about everything, and it's like, yeah, families, do you have sex? Not with each other? I don't know. If Fred has that wild ass line in the beginning

was a girl. If he wasn't my cousin, I was like, Fred, why and then I was then in the middle of the movie, I'm like, where did that guy go? Because he was like he came in so hot at the top of the movie and it disappeared. Yeah, if you you can't start any sentences if you weren't my cousin, unless it's like if you weren't my cousin, you would be someone not related to me. That's like the only way that send like you started anything off like what okay? Good?

You ended it with a very literal description rather than like checking her ass out and being like so weird cousin. I'm like, y'o, don't do all that ship. But again,

that's uh. Those are like those moments where the script writer is not really checking about like what that means to be like, and this character is like openly just making his cousin uncomfortable because he's objectifying her at the Christmas thing right well speaking, so we touched on this a little bit too, but like the way that McKay peiffer his role in the story, where like he's like aggressively staring at Kelly at the club and then they

go home together. But then the next morning he calls her, then she ignores his call, and then he shows up as Santa Claus uh, and she's like, what are you doing here? This is weird? And then I guess they make plans later that night that she has to bail on. I don't but I don't remember that even being discussed. She she ends up, it's because all the clod stuff happens. It's like the stuff happens, and then she and Lesa get into a fight, and I think she just ends

up kind of like understandably dropping the ball, right. But then he shows up again after she doesn't show up to whatever plans they had, and then he's just like hey, and then he spends the night because he's like I saw you when you were in ninth grade and I

liked it. Oh yeah, that was so you're like, oh, ship full from Oh he was also in high school, but I think he was like a bit older, right, But it was like, I've never forgotten this thing since I was fifteen, and you're like, oh, damn full for real and you came up to my house just as Santa Ship. Okay, that was so so Tropes on Tropes. On Tropes, I'm like the guy from your past who won't stop showing up. That's actually a good thing and that means love and nothing's scary about that. But Kelly

in general, like the way her characters. I guess, of all the ways the characters are written, I found Kelly to be the most confusing and just kind of like the way that story treats her is strange because I'm not even totally sure what she does. She mentions that she went to Harvard and something something perfume, but then I'm not even totally sure what she does. More of it, there's more time dedicated to the fact that she's a bad cook than informing us what she does for a living. Well,

that's what she does. I think that's what they're s is the occupation is irrelevant. What you need to know is she's the one that can't cook, like very like that's the framing of it for us, and then the relationship between her. I I it was a kind of like a something I can see a number of ways. But I liked that Kelly and Lisa, you see, they

have like an arc. Like it's you know, it's not even a guarantee that two women or two sisters will ever even get an arc in an ensemble movie like this, So I like that there was time that was like

allotted for that. But then the conversations are so kind of like basic where it's like you went to school and so you're a careerist and you stayed at home, so you're not as good as me, and yeah, yeah, when it's like what Lisa is saying to an extent like made sense, where she's like I had to help with the family business because everyone else kind of went their own ways. But like, why is she only mad at Kelly about this when like Quentin went off his

own way, like everyone left. Why why is like Kelly bearing the brunt of this grudge? I don't know, I just their whole their whole arc was kind of so touch and go for me where I'm glad it was there, but I just thought it was weird, right, because like Kelly is kind of presented as like the feminist of the family. She's the one she's focused on her career,

she has a vibrator. She's calling out. She's calling out Lisa first like being us believable, but then she's also like the so you you are to accommodate your Also, it feels like she's there's almost like a I don't know if it's like victim blaming exactly, but like Lisa is in a bad relationship, like her husband is awful,

she's cheating on her, she knows about it. What's that doesn't she say a line that kind of sums up her entire view on why she's okay with like they're being a mistress, because like there's a moment she's confronted and there's something to the effective like well, you know, like she's like, I don't want to start over. I won't be appealing in the dating pools and I'm not trying to start over, so I'm just gonna stay in

this like miserable life. And then and then Kelly's like, that's a horrible excuse, like stand up for yourself that I mean, that does happen though, I was like, well, yeah, well that's the thing, Like that's what's interesting about the movie because it does touch on things that you're You're angry sometimes with the characters and you're like, but that's kind of that's real ship though, like keeping secrets, being ashamed of a relationship, being in a shitty relationship because

you don't have the self confidence to like break out and do you know, advocate for yourself. There's real ship, although it's done poorly sometimes and like my oh what about my kids? What about my Like I'm going to look the other way because I want my kids to blah blah blah, Like it does happen. But because Kelly's constantly calling Lisa out and like being hostile to her for like, again, Lisa is in this bad relationship and

it feels like Kelly hates her because Malcolm sucks. And it's like, I don't know that, I don't maybe I'm misinterpreting that, but well, I think in a way, like what you're describing sounds like when you're mad at your friend because you know they can do better and you've seen them do better, yet they're not. And like that's sort of where it's at, where it's like, yeah, I mean obviously fuck Malcolm, but also like girl, like you can do way better than this. But but it comes

off in a weird way. I don't know if there's a way to elegantly like the whole movie would have to be about that kind of relationship to pull the nuances out of like being upset with your friend for not like being in a bad relationship or your family right and because there's eighteen other storylines happening, like not

enough time as dedicated. They even use the wonderful tropium of the day sex black enough uh in the Mo and Dude bathroom scene, we're sucking dough or lintles, like was it twenty five grand I got it right here and I leave him alone? We got Christmas dinner. I was like, damn, that was solved very quickly. A pastor, like the pastors the deacons have twenty five thousand dollars at all, absolutely, even to a black church. The collection plate comes around, I was like, where did that money

come from? Me? You got he has twenty five thousand. The pastor always has twenty five thousands. That's a whole other movie. Yeah, that's and that's a whole other movie. That's why I'm like, oh, like it's funny, like because I think of those tropes, even going to black church, like when my grandparents were dragged me and I was like, why do you give him all the money? I remember as a kid, I'm like, how come the pastor has the nicest car? And they're like, well, that's because know

they lead the congregation or whatever. I'm like, this sounds like, oh sick ass job. Just scream for a couple of minutes on Sundays and you get a Mercedes. This movie should have been a like TV series and not a movie based on like everything that gets set up about all these family members. So we want to go into the Whitfield universe, Yeah, if where is it? Um? But to go back to the Kelly at least a relationship I do appreciate, and this, you know, again, the nuances

aren't explored as much as they should be. This feels kind of surface level, but I do appreciate at least that Lisa comes around and realizes like, oh shoot, I should see my worth. I should see my value, I should leave my cheating husband, whatever that means for for me in my in my life. And they end on like a beat of kind of reconciliation and appreciation for each other because at least the lesson is like, I

don't know, girl, like men are going to cheat. The lesson is like, yo, if they're doing something, you can you can fucking pull up for yourself and do like actually take action for yourself. Right. I like where it lands and then it's like it does. Yeah, it just seemed like there was just like a lot of interesting threads in this movie that they just didn't have the time.

I would imagine that like a lot of stuff because it's two hours long and there's still so much more that you could explore just based on like what is kind of foreshadowed at the beginning, where Yeah, it just seemed like the movie maybe didn't have enough time to get to every like every interesting thing that was presented. But I did like where their relationship landed. Um and sisters can like I don't know, I'm glad, I'm glad that Lisa got out of there, and you know, is

it really going to affect her children? Where are her children? The movie does not give a ship. There mostly mirages. Yeah the figments. Um, we're running out of time? Is there any is there any other like kind of big things we want to touch on. Uh the I guess to like put a little bow on on the Quentin stuff. He is acting like Macavity. Um he is that's cats. Yeah, it's just elba is the villain and cats. He's Macavity.

The is it like the mystery cat? I forget what it is, but he's he plays a cat in a fedora? Um who does? And so when he jumped through breakaway glass, I was like this is Macavity energy. But but speaking to how him and madear where they land where Quentin like he and his mom having a strange relationship because

music bad. But then he like comes at her in a way that it's very clear, like Madeira is in no uncertain terms being like he was a bad father, he's a bad husband, Like I've been with Joe for seven years? Like what if if? Because they say that they started dating when mel went to college, which was seven years ago? Like can you just accept this? And he's like no, Dad might come back, which seems like a thing he's holding out for is like the potential

return of senior. But I don't know. I mean, I guess, But that's another thing you know that's real though too, like of your like son father son, you know, relationship like this of just idealizing your parents and then not being able to see like like looked at them objectively as a human being, where they're like, that's not how

a person should behave if they're a father. That actually fucked me up, and I'm I'm traumatized by it, but you're still so caught up in it that your trauma is only telling you like, he'll come back, He'll come back, and then everything will be okay because then if he comes back, I don't have to process any of this ship that I've been going through the last twenty odd

years because he will come back. But again, that's another thing that's very nuanced and like I'm looking at him like, well, there's a way to look at that being deep at fuck. And there's another version where it just sounds like I dress elbow being like you're not my dad, and then

it just ends there. They just don't have the time to like tackle that story, like it just sounds weird to Caitlin's point, like, yeah, if it were like an anthology, like you could tackle like each of these almost could be like a very poignant film around Christmas that you're really like, you know, working around from most of the storylines. But yeah, it ends up kind of getting a little vogue. Well then also with Idri Salma's character and arguably all

the men in the movie. And we've talked about this too on Christmas episodes we've done of um, a lot of stories revolved like a Christmas movie with a male protagonist. Often redemption is a huge theme there. There's often these like huge redemption arcs, which I generally find to be pretty tired and annoying. And it's also like, well, men, if you tried harder the first time, maybe you wouldn't

have to be constantly redeeming yourself all the time. Um, but you know, men will always be given second chances anyway. Male redemption stories are a very popular Christmas narrative between Scrooge and the Grinch and Tim Allen in the Santa Claus and Michael Keaton and Jack Frost and so on, And it feels like that applies to this movie as well, where like Joe and Quentin sort of redeem each other

in each other's eyes. There's like this redemption sort of with Claude being like, oops, I got arrested and oh I have a secret wife. But now everything's fine. They also don't have time to resolve this plod stuff. But right, but like Joe calls in a favor with some military guy he knows, so like that just gets like steamlessly resolved. Joe did that again? Yeah, Joe says like, oh I know some dude, Yo, he really is des x Blackina

and this whole film. Yeah everything. You let me call Colin Powell real quick, already have it an envelope in this way home my left pocket. That's thirty granted the other one here right, because he's also the one who arranges for Baby to sing at church so that Baby can kind of redeem himself in Madear's eyes. So all these sixes everything for every son right, and all of the men have these have these redemption narratives, whereas all the women are just like man or no man? Which

man who boy like sex kissing? Yeah that was my last thing? Is I wish that because most of Madear's most of Madear's stories as well, are dedicated to her relationship with Joe, her relationship with Baby, her relationship with Clenton, and really the only times you see her interact with her daughter is her or any of her daughters. She's like,

how is your marriage or where is your marriage? And those are really the only things that we So I wish that you had there was a little more time with Madear and and her dollars too, but you know, we just needed an anthology. We needed more time. You think he went a well because he was like a conscientious objector to the Iraq war, Like, Yo, that would have been lit. I'm like, yo, hold on, let this man speak real quick. He's not wrong though, but like but but he never Yeah, I don't know, Like I

don't know if we could what's the what's the reason behind? Yeah, that would be amazing. If this was like late Bush administration, like political. He's like, why am I going to go to another part of the world just to fight on behalf of corporations that are invested in my downfall in this country and collectively our entire family and our people. No funk that I'm not spilling my blood for petrol

dollars anymore. I'm taking a stand. God damn it, Like it would have been like, yeah, well that's not that's a redemption. No, I take too hot for a two thousand seven though, that two seven that would have been Dixie Chicks times five million. What the fund did this? What did this? This person saying the Christmas movie instead Petro war the truly the monologue we needed and we

didn't get. The reason we get instead is that he went a wall because he requested a leave, which was denied because he didn't tell his like military people that he got married. And he went in a wall because Sandy would have been disappointed if they So he's like kind of blame. It's almost like the blame is being put on her for the reason he went a wall, because he said, well, I like my secret wife that

I haven't told anyone about would have been disappointed. Hell yeah, clod, you know, we just needed the Claude the Clode thing. That's a whole series all its own, Like there's just so much going on. I'm like now officially fully opened to a mini series that writes out baby yes, eliminates where he goes to that camera he becomes Terry Richardson, you don't want to see it. Actually it's pretty it's prettyasy grim like we just don't talk about anymore. Yeah,

does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Yeah, but you think it would pass more. You think it would. There are quite a few women in the movie, and they do interact, but often the conversations revolve around husbands and boyfriends and stepdad figures, etcetera. Um, but there are things to talk about, like sisterhood and being bad at cooking, which technically counts batteries vibrator batteries. Yes, um, as far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on

an examination of intersectional feminism. So for me, I don't know. I'm kind of torn on this one because on one hand, it really adheres to some just you know, holiday movie tropes, some two thousand seven tropes two thousand seven tropes, the way women are presented in media tropes in terms of like the women all have like stakes and narratives surrounding like romantic relationships with men, So coming at it from

that perspective, it's like. But on the other hand, because this is typically such a white genre and Christmas movies so aggressively, like like I don't know, like Hollywood is just like only white Christians celebrate wintertime holidays, right, So it's just it's nice and refreshing to see a Christmas

oriented movie that features a black family. The fact that it's written and directed by a black filmmaker who based a lot of these characters on either members of his family or himself, so it's a black creator telling his own story. I really like the women in the story. I wish we had gotten to know them better. I wish we had they had narratives outside of romantic pursuits. We do learn a little tiny bit about each one as far as like interior exterior lives, but it's always

pretty vague. So it's like, I don't know, do we know that much about them? So I don't know. There's just it's kind of a mixed bag for me. Uh, Like I said, I think this would have served better as like a series. I would have I would love a show about this family. We had like ten bottle

episodes about each character. That would be like all the stories, all these stories or most of them like that Chris Brown one probably scraped that, but like all of them wore like you're like, oh, this is really something, but then where it is it go? So with that in mind, I don't know, maybe like a two and a half or three. I'm leaning I just like I said, I really like the characters. The performances are amazing, especially Loretta

Divine is incredible, Regina King amazing. Each of those characters deserve better. So I'm gonna land on a three, I think, And um, I'll give them all to Idrisalba's Ma Cavity just kidding, yeah, I think. Also just split them among the four main women in in the story. Whatever that fraction works out too. I'm leaning around the same at a two point five three, uh, for much the same reason. I mean, I guess it really is like it is.

It's amazing to see. Like I think We've been having this conversation um over the past several months more and more like movie is about black joy and movies about families, and movies about the American black experience that is not really deeply shaped by trauma. And this is the perfect genre to explore that, and but it's so rarely done.

This movie's um existence and success is like incredible, especially like this fucking cast is unreal, Like it's just just the careers that the vast majority of this cast has gone on to have. It's just like minus Chris Brown, you know a lot of upward trajectories and a notable downward one. Um. But all I said, like, the cast is so incredible, the chemistry between everyone is so good.

And then yeah, my my note is kind of the same thing of like, if you're going to bring in such an amazing group of female actors, don't just give them stories about husbands and boyfriends and like it's a waste of the talent. And I really, I mean, I don't think that we really know anything about these women outside of their relationship to men and sons outside of the Lisa Kelly Um sisterhood, but all of their conflicts

revolve around their relationships towards men. So I just I A, I was frustrated by that because it's like, you have fucking Regina King, she can do anything, like let's see more, let's see like questions I had as I was watching. I was like, well, what what would Lisa have done if she didn't feel like she had to stay back with the family, Like did she have an aspiration that was kind of ruined in her view by the fact that Kelly went on to have her career follow up question,

what is Kelly's career? What does she do? Why do we talk more about whether she's fucking Santa or not then what her job is like? There were just so many especially given the variety of the mail plot and how I think pretty much, without exception, all the male plots were at least tethered in some way to their career, where like Claude is a Wall, Macavity is Macavity, ng uh,

all of their stories are related to their careers. And we don't even really know what the female characters do or wanted to do outside of Madear owns a cleaners, but we don't know anything about that really either, Like so, and then on top of I mean, and I wish that we saw more of Madear and her daughters selfishly because I want more scenes with Loretta Divine and Regina King, but like that's a meeting. So I think that this movie is really good, and it's it's especially for its time.

It's like it's very of its time in a lot of ways, and we can tear that apart all day, but it's a movie it's a joyful movie about black American family. We don't get that a lot, and um, I hope that we continue to get more in this genre. It care about what women are doing that aren't with men. So I'll go I guess I'll go a three as well, and I will give my nipples to give two of

them to mel because I want. I also, I really liked her, and she disappeared about halfway through the movie, And I will give my other nipple to my dear because Loretta Divine rocks truly. What about you, Miles, Uh, maybe two and a half three? Maybe I'll go three rather than just to give a slight advantage because it's weird, like half of the film negates the other half, so you're like, but also like, I'm also looking at this through the lens of it being a Christmas film, so

I'm already like, this is not like a movie. Really. I I really consider these kinds of films like absolute background noise during the holidays, because none of them know there's it's really hard to find any film that's offering anything of substance. And just like the way the genre has like morphed over the years, as it is like flavorless is the flavor. Uh, so I'll give it. I'll give them three and just you know, maybe I would knock them down because for that escalade line about being

a good investment really fucking kissed me off. No, fuck it too to wow. I don't know why. No, no, no no, I'm sorry, but that has nothing to do with the representation of women. So I will still keep it through. I'm sorry, I have to keep I have to sort of compartmentalize one must Hell yeah, well, myles, thank you so much for for being here, for talking this Christmas with us. Where can people follow you? Check out your stuff? Tell us everything. Oh it's not much,

just miles of gray wherever wherever you got stuff? And uh daily Zeitgeist talking every day. If you want to hear my takes on the sordid universe of ours or fiance if you want to hear me just be high and talk about um. You can follow us on social media on Twitter, on Instagram, on our patreon a k A Matreon, which is at patreon dot com, slash Bechtel Cast. It's a fun place this month because we're doing the terrible Netflix ones. We're talking Princess switched to and Christmas

Prince to Princess switch. I say, Christmas Princess. There it's the Princess, the Prince, Christmas the Christmas Prince switch switched again, switched again at the So for more of that, go to man. It's only five dollars of us and it gets you to Bottos episodes every month. Um. And then for our merch, you can go to t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast and grab some some merch for for holiday gifts. Go for it. Who's stopping you?

I dare you? Thank you so much for listening and two miles again, and we'll be back with another holiday disaster next week. Indeed, bye bye bye