Thirteen with Maggie Mae Fish

were struggling with an intro, who is okay? Here's a question, the central question of thirteen I thought when I was thirteen, I was wrong, is who's the bad guy? Did not occur to me that the bad guy was society? But I, you know, of the two of us, who is the bad influence? Good question? I know, Oh my gosh, well it's hard to say. I actually now right now I'm really thinking about it. We we have kind of equal amounts of like we both have chaotic instincts, but they're

like not the same instincts. So I guess it depends on like there's certain things that you're the bad influence on, and then there's certain things on the beat. And that's why we create a whole bad person because one bad person collectively Hell yeah, because I was gonna say, like, we have equal amounts of like tattoos, because tattoos equals bad. Tattoos are bad. Do you what is your peers? I don't have. I wanted a belly ring so bad in

middle school. It was physically painful. And my cousin Tammy, who everyone in the Zoom Call has met, we went to um eye Hoop with her and had minions breakfast ever of it. Some really some real bad girls ship at the eye hop. But she was allowed to get a belly ring and I wasn't. And it was devastating, I'm sure, and it was she was like even we were both such like goody two shoes, but she was even goody two shoes or so I think my aunt

was like, we gotta give this girl some edge. Yes, you can get a belly y. I love that for Tammy, shout out. The only thing I have pierced are my ears, but I have like double piercings in the lobes and then like a cartilage piercing. So cartilage, okay, cartilage is like that's cool. And it was the first piercing I got before I even got my lobes pierced, which is kind of wild. You went directly for the bone. Um, I mean the cartilage. But yeah, okay, oh okay, Nerd,

there there's a difference. Actually, thank you, resident biologist Kate Rent. You're welcome. You're so welcome. That one's painful, though, it's so painful, and it was like effected for a year, and because I got it done at Claire's obviously and it was just not the best experience. Then I got my lobes pierced a few years later, which it's nothing comparatively. I don't like being in physical pain even for one second.

And so I my lobe holes uh closed like a year ago, and I have yet to go to Claris to resolve the issue. My mom and I have this I like, this is my very mother daughter episode and then we're gonna start the show. My mom used to love to do this thing when I was a kid, where if I was getting something exciting done, my mom would be like, what if I want up to that?

And so when I went to Claire's to get my lobes pierced, and I think I was like six seven something like that, she just like we were at Claire's at the Westgate Mall in Brocton. And then she was like, she was like talking to this sixteen year old. This is my memory, So she's more of a villain in my memory than probably what's happening in real life. But she's talking to like the fifteen year old who worked at Clari's, and she's like, should I get my ears? Piers?

Should I get my car artilage? Piers as like, MoMA, this is my day. And she did and she still has it. Jill stole your thunder. Jill goes hard. Jill goes hard. She's like, she's like a little girl. You think you're gonna get your lobes, Piers, Well, guess what mommy's going for the cart? All right, we might cut that from the episode. It's hard to say. Come to the Becktel cast. My name is Caitlin. Sorry that was exciting. Well again, we are together, one whole person, so we

do have to speak in unison. Yes, take me orantis. Oh yeah, I'll figure it out. We'll workshop it. We'll workshop it. There's time. This is our show, so where we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the

Bechtel tests. Simply as a jumping off point. The Bechtel Test being, of course, a media metric created by a queer cartoonist, Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test that has many different variations, but the one we use requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names speak to each other about something other than a man, and ideally that conversation is like substantial, narratively relevant, et cetera. Not a huge deal in this movie. There's there's a lot,

there's interaction between teen girls and women. It's really not a problem. Yeah, And we have an incredible returning guest today to cover this two thousand and three, Katherine Hardwick Nicky read Evan rachel Wood classic. Please let's get her in the room, shall we, Caitlin, Let's do it. She's a writer, actor, and video essayist. You remember her from our episode on Edwards scissor Hands. It's Maggie may Fish. Welcome back. Welcome. Sorry I meant to say, um, thirteen

year old Maggie may Fishing on this episode. Oh no, I'm already sweating just as I remembered. Uh, Hi, guys, it's so great to be back. Welcome back this is and and what a what a vibe shift for for this episode. Yeah, although both like you know, kind of like trying to be like Edgy in a way, a lot of angst, a lot of angst. Each director had their own approach. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very um excited, confused,

like honestly going into preparing for this episode. Um. Well, we'll talk about our experience with this movie in a second, But this is a really really tricky movie to talk about. The more you learn about the production, the more you learn about like it's I'm coming in with my opinions a little malleable, and the more I watch that there's been a lot of interesting retrospective work done, Like both lead actors and Catherine Hardwick have been super open about

talking about this movie almost twenty years down the line. Now, it's just there's there's a lot to discuss. So to begin, Maggie may Fish, what is your history with the movie? Oh? Man, I felt like my experience of this movie is very iconic. Uh, it was a cool girl having to sleep over in her very fancy house that was close to the beach as all the cool houses where and all the cool people lived. Yeah, she was turning thirteen sleepover. We watched this movie. I think we also rented it behind her

mom's back. I think, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. When this movie came out, we definitely were because yeah, we were like younger than thirty. We were not allowed to watch it. It was not allowed, but the movie was called thirteen and they were sticking their tongues out. You did have to watch it. Yes, it felt very um underground in a way. You know, it was like a movie for people our age quote unquote, even though it's not. And then watching it, I read who that's my big question?

Who was this movie for? Who is this for? Who's this movie for? Um? Yeah, I do remember, and it came back to me as we were watching it. I remember the overall feeling of being like, how are we supposed to feel about the mom? And are we getting creepy vibes from her? Or is this just she's jealous? Like if we were all very confused. Um, none of us had a relationship with our moms like this, and though we all had very complicated relationships with our mothers. Um,

so yeah that was just upon first impression. Uh, And we did feel very cool watching it. I mean, I mean, that's what that Jamie. What's your history in relationship with the movie. UM, I don't remember exactly how we got our hands on this movie, because this movie, I think we probably I probably saw it like maybe the year whenever it was like became available at I'm guessing Blockbuster.

But I I very clearly remember watching this with one of my closest female friends who was like a neighborhood friend who I had a very close, um, maybe a little bit unhealthy relationship with. Um. Yeah, I will not name her. She's doing great now, she's the best. But we were super close growing up and like especially like in middle school, we liked dance classes together, we did after school stuff together. We like watch things we weren't

supposed to watch. We weren't doing like thirteen Ship, but we were like, we were like we could do that, you know, Like I don't know, it was just like a very like my close friend who I loved, sleeping in the same bed as and we would watch Degrassi and thirteen is basically like X Game de Grassy and so like we were like, oh, we thought it goes there on the grassy, which was the tagline at the time. Well,

guess what, thirteen, It actually scared us. But also it was like that sort of thing, like when you encounter something like this when you're at that age, and I'm guessing I was probably eleven or twelve when we watched it. Um Like, there's a part of this movie that makes you want to do everything in it, and that's a part that I'm very critical of. And we talked about

this on the show before. It's like I had the same kind of feeling towards the Grassy, Like there's certain things that happened in this movie that I think are like wildly unethical to show on screen, and it's anyone I was looking through stuff at the time. It just like this movie was co written by a thirteen year old. It's absurd to think that thirteen year olds would not

find this movie. And so in some ways, I'm like, this is really unethical, and then in other ways it was a very effective cautionary tale about stuff that like I don't know again, like I was a super goody two shoes, and like watching this movie, I almost definitely didn't hadn't heard of or didn't understand most of what they were encountering or a lot of what they were encountering. But yeah, I think I only watched it like once or two, I mean for as long as the blockbuster

rental lasted. But we like talked about it and we were like, who's Eavy, Who's Tracy, blah blah blah, Like we were really into it. And then I didn't revisit it for years and years, And it was a wild thing to rewatch because but the first time this came out, for example, I didn't know who Vanessa Hudgins was. She wasn't famous, and now we know. Now we all know

who Vanessa Hudgens. And the princess switched herself. She really did something there, and uh yeah, it was like this movie, I have such complicated feelings towards it, and as I was preparing for this episode, I was struggling to untangle my middle school self and analyze seeing it as a crusty adult. So let's see how this goes. Caitlin, what's your history with the movie thirteen? Well, I did see

it not long after it came out. I think, like also when it became available to rent on like DVD, maybe even VHS back then that covers hard to ignore. I really got three. It's so like scrap booky looking. Yeah, I loved it. Um So, I was like sixteen or seventeen, sixteen, I think when this movie came out, so I was, you know, still an impressionable teenager, but um older than

the characters. Thirteen year olds are famously feral. I feel like by the time you're sixteen, you're a little less feral, right, I mean, I guess it just depends on the person. Maybe you're more feral by then. Some people are, that's true, and some people stay feral their whole lives. And you look at but um, I was also, uh, I was. I was quite the goody two shoes myself. So I found this movie like understandable but also disturbing at the time, and I think that's the same impression I have of

it now. I find this movie more stressful to watch than Uncut Gems. I guess that that is like the go too stressful movie didn't compare it to but for like different reasons obviously. I mean, I will say, before preparing for this episode, I knew nothing about the production background about Believing, and I sort of went into this rewatched thinking this movie had to have been strictly a cautionary tale, like in the way that I feel like

every generation has its like grand cautionary tale. I know that my mom gave me a copy of her Generations Cautionary tail, Go ask Alice Ship. Yeah, I wrote that book right when I was a kid, and like that for for listeners not in the know of how go ask Alice culture, it's very bizarre. It is also a

cautionary tale about a young girl. I don't remember how old she is in the book, but um, it's supposed to be like an anonymous journal from like the nineties seventies of a young girl who gets into drugs and sex very young it destroys her life. Later on it was revealed that it was not an anonymous journal by a twelve year old girl who I think canonically dies. Um, it was written by an old lady under an assumed name to scare young girls out of doing anything. It's

far more complicated than that. But this is like a recurring I feel like every generation has a story like this. But the kind of like wrench in that for thirteen is that Nicky Reid was extremely involved in the writing of this, So there was a thirteen year old girl and it's like based off of her life, right, and it's like, so a thirteen year old girl's perspective is

like absolutely cannon to this movie. And rewatching it back, it was like, oh, I feel like that actually does come through Again, we'll get into the ethics of it, but yeah, this is a really sticky, interesting movie. Indeed, shall I recap it? Yeah? Good luck. I love this part of the podcast. By the way, Caitlin, thank you so much for doing it every time. Truly, she's braver than the truths for this. Oh my goodness, thank you so much. Um. Well, actually, let's take a quick break

first and then I'll come back and recap. And we're back and here they are with the famous Caitlin. First, I'll do a content slash trigger warning for everything, like for for everything self harm, teen drug use, teens, sex, and sexuality that's mostly suggested and not but like some of it is kind of shown on screen. What else, I mean, discussion of sexual abuse and physical abuse, of depictions of overdose, kind of name it. It's referenced or

happens in the movie. Right. Yeah, So the movie opens, we meet two girls who are presumably thirteen years of age. One of them is Tracy played by Evan rachel Wood. We see her friend also, who will turn out to be e V. Samora. They are inhaling like keyboard cleaner, like some kind of thing from an aerosol can. They're getting high. They are punching each other because they can't feel anything, and they're trying to see if they can like sense paint. We then cut to four months earlier.

Tracy is a you know, quote unquote normal kid. She comes from kind of like a lower middle class background, working class background. We meet Tracy's mom, Melanie played by Holly Hunter. Did not know who Holly Hunter was. The first time I saw this movie totally forgot she was in it. I did because Oh, Brother Were Art though, was one of my favorite movies at the time, So yeah, you're so cool. Oh my gosh. Melanie is a single mom. She works as a hairdresser. She's in a twelve step program.

We also meet Tracy's older brother, Mason played by Brady Corbett, who goes to school with Tracy. It seems like he's like a year or two older. We also meet Tracy's friend Noel that's Vanessa Hudgens Wild how Vanessa Hudgens was like just They're like, oh, we need a good girl. We gotta get Vanessa Hudgens in the mix, like she was so good girl Cannon in this era high school musical much the Best Girl, Find Me a Better Girl.

We see Tracy and Noel on their first day of first day, I'm not sure a day of seventh grade. There's another girl at school, Evie Zamora, played by Nicky Reid, who again co wrote the screenplay. This movie is based on her experience from like ages twelve to thirteen. Also, the use of the name Evie. I was like, okay, Bible, okay, that's interesting. Is there a biblical character named I've never read them? Well, here is Eve, the o g tempest. Do I tell them this story? Have heard of Eve?

I That my guess is because this movie does makes a lot of broad writing choices, that the use of Eve was intentional because she goes into a garden and then there's like a snake there and the snake is like, eat this apple. And he was like, okay, well, I feel like a story right, That's exactly how it goes. It's like the moral is um women are bad um.

Except for Vanessa Hudgens, except for Vanessa Hudgens, who gets written out in midway that scene where poor sweetie Vanessa Hudgens is in her like puppy shirt or whatever, and it's like Evan Rachel would hang out with me and they're like look and then just like bail on her. You're like Vanessa sad. And then she goes to a ski lodge with her family and her life changes because she meets to think that that's can and she's like, I have to my only friend broke up with me.

I have to move to East High exactly. Okay. So there's this girl Evie. She's like very popular, she's cool. All the boys like her, all the girls think she's super cool. Tracy is feeling very insecure about like her clothes and just sort of her whole persona because some like girls make a mean comment about what she's wearing. So she comes home, she like throws away all of her barbies and stuffed animals, and she wants to be

more mature, more grown up. And part of this is her approaching ev at school and like trying to befriend her, and Evie is like, why don't you call me after school and we can go shopping on Melrose And I'm like, Okay, I guess we're in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it there? This is already where I feel like me and Tracy diverged in a wood at that time, because I would never be have enough to talk to a popular girl, especially if she then gave me a fake phone number.

I would um, I would walk into the ocean if that had happened. Yes, But this does not deter Tracy, and she goes and somehow knows exactly where Evie is shopping at this exact moment, and she goes to this store because she does try to call Evie and like the numbers not in service, so it's like, oh, I guess Evie gave her the wrong phone number on purpose, question Mark. But Tracy goes to find her, and she watches Evie and her friend shoplift, which Tracy is like,

oh my gosh, this is new territory. But then she goes and steals a woman's wallet at a bus stop or she was having a bad day, she was having a bad day. You get here and then her wallet with and it's full of cash. So Tracy Evie and Evie's friend Asterriid. I think we learned her name is. They go to say Chers and buy a bunch of shoes. I know the Sketchers they go to. Do you guys

know the Sketchers. I think it's still there. If it's the Hollywood Boulevard Sketchers, I'm like, I've browsed there, Okay, browsed there. Wow. I can't believe I went to the Sketchers from thirteen. I didn't even know. Amazing A great story. Um So back home. Tracy's mom Melanie her on again, off again boyfriend Brady played by what's the guy's name? Jeremy's sister. How do we know who Jeremy's sister is? Every time I see him, I go oh yeah, oh yeah him? Is that? What is he famous for? How

do we know who? Oh? He was in six ft Under? That doesn't help because I didn't want to show. But I think that that's what people know him from. Oh he's in clueless. I think that's what I recognize him from. As Elton. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes he's the guy that you're supposed to want share with and then he turns out to be an asshole and he bails on her. Right, that's Jeremy Sister, got it. Yes, he

is an addict, like recovering addict. Who um. It's suggested that like he and Melanie know each other from the twelve step program, he also seems to like bail on Melanie and kind of only be around when it's convenient for him. So Tracy really resents him and the way that he treats her mom and also has been like exposed to him withdrawing from drugs in a way that

I think was really scary for her or position as. Yeah, the way this movie treats addiction I thought was interesting, like where it's like you can totally understand that from a however old she was then eleven or twelve year olds perspective, that's a really scary thing to see. And also that that's not that doesn't make Jeremy Sister a bad person. Like, Yeah, So Tracy and ev get closer. Evi turns out to sell acid. She and Tracy go to a park, they get high, they're kissing some boys.

They're spending more and more time with each other, and Tracy is spending less and less time with her mom, less and less time with Vanessa Hudgens. That's a red flag, a bat path. I feel like, so Evie is sort of like the Vanessa Hudgens character and princess switched to the bad what was her name? Fiona? And honestly amazing that you remember that. I think that that is true. I would not have gotten that with a gun to

my head. And then Vanessa Hudgens character in the movie thirteen is Vanessa Hudgens, the Chicago Baker, the worst Vanessa Hudgens, as far as I'm concerned, the flop Vanessa Hudgens. I hate that the main Vanessa Hudgens is like the worst one. It's like, give me more bad British accent Vanessa Hudgens where she's what I'm saying, yeah, exactly, heart degree. So Tracy, you know, she's again she's kind of bailing on her

her like former friends and family. She's slacking off at school, she's dressing more suggestively, she gets her tongue pierced, and we're like, okay, Evie perhaps is a bad influence on Tracy. And then Evie confides in Melanie that Evie's guardian, this woman Brooke, who is Evie's older cousin that Brook's boyfriend is physically abusive to Evie. And then this is kind of the start of a relationship between Evie and Melanie that we can unpack. But there's some kind of there's

a dynamic happening here that's worth discussing. Every complicated to me. The movie starts to get like, this is where yeah, I mean, this is where I come undone. You're just like, but but ev essentially moves in to the family home because everyone is allowed to move into the family home, right, Because there's a friend of Melanie's who is played by the same actor who plays Bella Swan's mom in Twilight, which this is like ground zero Catherine Hardwick, which is

why I never connected that. That's why Nicki Reid is a cullin. Yes, she plays Rosalie. Is that right? Yeah, and that's how I feel like she became super super famous. But I I totally forgot that, Like that is why she probably got cast in that movie. Wild. Didn't even make that connection until like two days ago. Yeah, well, I didn't realize and we'll get into it. I didn't realize that Nikki Reid like grew up with Catherine hart

I mean, I guess why would you infer that? But like their relationship is very close and like still I mean I watched a bunch of interviews from like just a couple of years ago. It seems like the three of them Evan Rachel would Nicky Reid, and um, Katherine Hardwick are still very close, which I think is sweet. But then also the ethics of this movie are so weird. Okay, circle bam. The point is though, that, um, that Melanie is extremely accommodating and whenever someone needs help, she kind

of bends over backwards to help them. So she has this friend who has a young daughter who uh stay with them for a few days, and she's again a hairdresser who seems to like feed all of her clients all the time. She's just very accommodating. Um, it's hard not to like love mel She really cares about people. But then sometimes it's like but this, you're you're fostering and not help the environment for your kids. But also sometimes you're like, but I get why she wants to

help people out. No, yeah, she's complicated. Meanwhile, Tracy's dad, who is obviously like separated from Melanie, he bails on spending time with Tracy, which upsets her, as does Melanie continuing to see this guy Brady. So there's a lot of stuff with Tracy's family that is upsetting to her, and Tracy's relationship with Melanie is getting more and more tense. We're also seeing like Eve trying to get closer to Tracy's mom in this weird and arguably manipulative way a

lot of times. Um we also see Tracy self harming. We'll go back to that because I really don't think they should have shown that you can address that without showing thirteen year old how to do that. Get Then this guy Hobby wants to like hang out with Slash go out with Tracy, and so he and some other guy go over to Evie's place and hang out with Tracy and Evie. We see the two kind of pairs of them making out, and then it's later implied that

Tracy gives Hobby oral sex. Things are continuing to get more and more out of hand. Tracy and Evie like sneak out when they're supposed to be at the movies. Tracy gets all funked up. She's been like experimenting with drugs this whole time, drugs and alcohol. Her brother Mason catches her. He's ready to tell on her. He like slut shames her things like hit critical mass at home, where Melanie finds out a bunch of stuff. She finds

out about Tracy's different piercings. Tracy's really acting out, and Melanie wants Tracy to go live with her dad a bit, but he's too busy with work and just kind of absent overall. He's not able to take her in. And then Tracy is like, well, I think I would get along better with everyone if Evie could just live here, which very much puts Melanie on the spot, but because she's so kind of like accommodating, she doesn't like challenge

this at first. Um then we cut to the scene we saw at the beginning where Tracy and Evie are huffing the air soul and getting high and punching each other. Melanie sees the aftermath of this, and it's like, what the fuck? And there's also this at the time, it looks honestly a little goofy now, but at the time I was like, wow, iconic. As she descends into thirteen

year old debauchery. The aesthetic of the movie. The movie just gets bluer and bluer and bluer, and then at the end it looks like a scene from Twilight, which her name. It's a very blue and gray movie. It's just like you're watching Katherine Hardwick arrive at her Twilight aesthetic throughout the course of this movie, and it is like watching it now, I'm just like, this feels like such a cautionary tale where it like almost feels like

a p s a creative choice. But at that time, I was like, I know, you're like, oh my god, genius, genius. Never seen anything like it. So Tracy she misses a big school project. She lies to her teacher. She's basically hitting rock bottom, especially after Evie starts blowing her off because Melanie was like, sorry, Evie, I can't let you live here. So Tracy now feels abandoned by Evie and the other popular girls. She feels abandoned by her dad.

She's self harms again. She then learns that she might fail the seventh grade and get held back, and then Melanie and Brooke again Evie's guardian hold basically like an intervention. After finding at Ash of drugs and money that was hidden around Tracy's room, stuff that Evie had put there, but is not taking the fall for it. She's kind of dumping all the blame on Tracy and Evie and Brooke act like Tracy is the one who had been a bad influence on Evie. But luckily Melanie sees through

this bullshit and kicks them out. Tracy is just sobbing. Melanie comforts her, She discovers Tracy's injuries from self harming, and then just embraces Tracy, and the movie ends with Melanie spending the night holding and comforting Tracy. So that is how the movie ends. Let's take a quick break and then come back to discuss, and we're back. I do feel like, before getting into the main discussion, the production history of this movie is really relevant. I want

to learn more. Yeah, because I am blissfully ignorant of what went down. So this is like a very I don't know. I mean, throughout the course of researching this, I feel like my personal opinion changed several times. So I was surprised to see that Nikki Reid, who was fourteen when this movie was shot, is a credited screenwriter on this movie not you know, call me ages. But I didn't know fourteen year olds can write movies. Um,

but here is the situation. Okay, So NICKI read this is at the time she said heavily pulled from her own life, so she from like the year before this movie. That's where I get like, because I was just like, oh, if I made a movie about my life when I was thirteen, it would also be very over dramatic and paint my family as villains. Um. So it's a complicated thing, and she's I have some quotes from her in later years of her kind of reflecting on this, which I

think are really interesting. The good thing is that it seems like the three main people involved here, Evan Rachelwood, Nicky Reid, and Katherine Hardwick all do stand by the movie they've done reflecting on it, and it doesn't seem like anyone anyone's you know, life was wrecked by this movie having made. I still think it's an interesting discussion. So. Uh. Nicky Reid grew up in l A. Her dad was a production designer, her mom was a hair dresser. They

got divorced very young. She has an older brother. Um. She did not apparently in retrospect, she said, like, well, I didn't actually do as much as I said I did at the time, but she did. She did. Um, you know, I think have to grow up very quickly and felt as a kid kind of neglected to varying degrees by her parents. So in the movie, like, Tracy is the insert for Nikki Reid, and EV is more

or of a construction of general debauchery. I guess, as far as I know, ev is not based on any particular person, but Tracy is very much the Nicky Read character stand in, which is confusing because Nicki Reid plays e V. But in real life, Nicki Reid was the Tracy character, not the Evy character, which I guess was very intentionally done right because it was like, you don't want to just like react out your own trauma as

a kid. It's still complicated no matter what happens. So where Katherine Hardwick fits in is she dated Nicky Reid's father for a while. Kiss. Katherine Hardwick also started as a production designer, so I'm assuming they knew each other through work. Don't really know, um, but she dated Nicki Reid's dad when Nicki Reid was like five years old.

I don't know when things broke off, but I know that Katherine Hardwick was very close with the kids, Nicky Red and her older brother, and that even after the breakup, Katherine Hardwick wanted to stay involved in the kids lives. There's a lot of gray area here. It's hard to figure out the particulars, but basically, Katherine Hardwick said she wanted to stay involved in the kids lives, so she started seeing their mother to get her hair done. Question Mark, Like,

I I that is, I guess what happened. But so she and Nikki remained close and per both of them around the time Nikki was turning twelve and thirteen entering middle school. She I mean in the way that a lot of like kids going through puberty go like, she you know, became moody. She was like going out when she wasn't supposed to. She was playing her divorced parents against each other and sort of you know, doing I think kind of a diet version of what you see

in the movie thirteen. So Katherine Hardwick, I get like the way that they tell the story is that Catherine Hardwick was concerned about Nikki and wanted to give her a productive, creative outlet to think about and talk about what she was going through that wasn't acting out and potentially hurting herself and other people. So she invites Nikki over to her house and over the course of six days they write out the plot to so they built

it together. Katherine Hardwick had not directed a movie at this time, but then becomes really into the idea and starts to say, like, Okay, I actually do want to make this movie, Nikki. I want you to be in it, and like we're gonna make the movie and that is how it comes to be. Thoughts, Wow, I think it's it's it's hard. I mean, ultimately, as long as Nikki read it feels okay. Now that's the most important thing.

And it's like our opinion doesn't super matter. But I but I do think Katherine hard Work was a little bit wrong for that. Like I think it's one thing to be like let's do a creative writing exercise, let's reflect, and let's you know, like work together. But it's like thrusting a kid into that. Like the negative consequence of this movie for Nikki Reid was I mean, on the bright side, she got a whole last career out of it.

She gave an incredible performance. She is credited as a co writer, which I feel like not every adult would do, and like she does get a well deserved career out

of this. But also she has said, and we'll link this in the description, there's like a really interesting Refinery twenty nine like retrospective on this movie where it's the three of them talking and you know, Nikki Reid and Evan rachel Wood are in their thirties now, but for for years, like this movie most directly affected Nikki because it was her telling her perspective of her parents divorce.

As we'll discuss, neither of the parents come off particularly well, and she's you know, when the movie comes out, she's like fourteen, fifteen years old and still living with her mom, and her mom has to see Holly Hunter play her, and like she had a really really tense relationship with both of her parents after this movie was released, and I guess that she didn't speak to her father for years.

They later repaired their relationship, but it's like, per I don't have a direct quote from her on this, or maybe I do, but her general thing was like she ten years after this movie came out, when she was in her twenties, expressed regret at being kind of harsh on her parents. She oh, I have a direct quote about this, you do? Okay? I would, because I it's

buried in my notes. I pulled it from scholarly journal Wikipedia, but the quote is pulled originally from like People or something like I think, like a Huffington Post maybe peace point is here's the quote. Um Nicky read in says, and this is paraphrasing, but that she regrets the way she portrayed her family uh in the movie thirteen, saying quote, I wrote this movie about them and their flaws and

imperfections and what it was like growing up. It was from one kid's perspective and not a well rounded one. You get older and it's like, how dare I portray my father as being a totally vacant, careless schmuck unquote So um, which I think is like, I mean again,

only she knows what her childhood was really like. But this does seem to it's definitely the most loaded experience for Nikki read specifically, which I do think kind of opens uh portal of everyone's going to have a different opinion on this, of like Katherine Hardwick is you know, in her late forties when she makes this movie, you would have to know that like that is going to

affect this kid you love's relationship with her family. And it's like it's like, on one hand, you want to respect her creative voice and you don't want to like tell her that her perception of what's happening in her life is wrong, Like certainly not. But on the other hand,

she's a kid. And because I am ultimately glad that this movie exists, I feel like there's truly nothing else I've ever seen like it, and so many I mean, and this movie can skew a little preachy at times, but like but in terms of like pulling from an actual kid's experience and making her voice really really important to the movie, like there's there's not a lot of movies like that. And then on the other hand, it negatively affected her life for a while. She had to

drop out of high school. Like there's a there's a quote from Nikki read Um. She says, quote religious people who don't even know me are calling my mom to telling her she should burn in hell and that God hates her. My mom can't defend herself to the world she's such an amazing woman with such an open heart. It's a real hard line and I crossed it. So again, she's a kid when these decisions are made, and it's

I don't know, it's a real meyer. And well, on top of that, you have a movie where you're casting literal teenagers because Evan Rachel would and Nicky Reid we're both fourteen years old during the filming of this movie, and then I think Evan Rachel would turn fifteen during the shoot, which was like a twenty four days shoot. But they're like teens, right, They're very young, and so them as actors are made to do things on set

that are inappropriate for like teenagers to be doing. Um I felt, and I think like the filming of it was probably handled as responsibly as you can handle something like that. But like you're having to fourteen year olds like straddling teen boys, like making out with them. They're broad, like their shirts are off there like braws or exposed.

You're having teenagers like smoke cigarettes and yeah, they were filled with catnip according to something I read, but that was the way I was that was presented was like, well, don't worry it with cat, it was I also don't want my fourteen year old. Yeah, and then I read that um like like the crushed pills that they were snorting were actually quote harmless dietary supplements, and it's like,

I'm sorry, dietary supplements are not harmless. And then like I read that, um, all the scenes where Tracy was inflicting self harm, they were all shot in a single day, and that everyone Rachel would her brother would have to like, yeah, like go to her brother for emotional emotional support between the takes of these scenes, because I think just filming

that was very traumatic, understandably. Yeah. So yeah, you're having these actors like do these like very sexually explicit things on camera, like simulating drug the use sets, I mean, and that kind of brings it back to the thing where it's like there's no other movie like this, but that is for a reason, and like this, I don't know if this is a story that you could possibly tell ethically, which unless it's like animated, which would also

makes for some weird probably like tonal disconnect, right, which which I feel like that is kind of tends to be cw NET negative anyways, and right, right, and then you don't get that actual perspective that is appreciated in the movie of like, you know, someone's perception of their own experience att is like this intense, and that's also something that isn't often captured. It's like it's a real it's a real Maria and like reading how what Evan

rachel Wood's experience was. And at this point she was like a well seasoned child actor, like she'd been performing

for some time. I think her dad was also an actor, and that's a whole Like I feel like we're having the most recent round of child star discourse, which I um respectfully tap out of um, but but I mean I think that I mean in this in the case of this movie, it's very relevant because and I can't think of another situation like it where it's like it's very common that teens, teenagers, especially teenage girls are exploited in movies like this and and like you know, made

to do, like putting sexual situations in movies very early on. There's always some sort of pressure, especially with an indie movie like this, where it's like doing this whole movie in twenty four days also doesn't seem like it's possible to do completely ethnically spotlessly with not a lot of money, right, like on a low budget where you can't hire probably all the like people you need to hire to make sure.

I mean, I'm speculating here and to be fair. So there's there's a scene which I think we should talk about for other reasons, but there's a scene where the two girls more or less assault this guy, Luke, this older guy who seems to be friends with Mason. They come onto him. He is very reluctant. He's like saying no, he's pushing them off. Uh. We have Nicky Reid and Evan Rachel would like kissing this guy, kind of like getting on top of him. All this stuff. On set

were just a few crew members. There were social workers and parents present, so there were at least people. They're just kind of like making sure this was like again as safely and ethically done as possible, and the pretty consistent with this production. But it's like, I don't know my opinion that is, like, Okay, I'm a fourteen year old the actor acting out this scene, Like I appreciate that my parents would be there to look out for you and make sure you're not pressured to do anything

you don't want to do. But on the other hand, I don't want my parents watching me do that ship I'm fourteen years old, Like what the fuck right? It's like it's there's no winning, and it's just the fact that it's like, okay to fourteen year olds make out with this older guy, this older actor to do that at all, to do that on camera, like it just

felt icky. Of all the many vignettes in this movie that is so cutible that I was like, why is this, Like you achieved the same downward spiral without having to fourteen year old actors do that. It kind of didn't. It didn't add anything like, looking at just from a story perspective, it's so get ridable and yeah, not in any way. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't did not

like that scene. Um yeah, I'm trying to think if there's any other Oh, I just want to say that the last thing for Nikki Read and Evan rachel Wood, I think a little heavier on Nikki Reads side, But um, this also feels very two thousands and probably still now. I'm probably um giving the present too much credit. But Nikki Reid co wrote this movie had a huge hand

in shaping it and making it what it was. She gave an amazing performance, and then her career very quickly became her playing other heavily sexualized teenage characters for years and years and years until she did Twilight and then was able to like access more roles. But it was that sort of thing where it was like she did I mean, she did a pretty amazing thing here, and then instead of being treated as like, Wow, this kid can like really write and perform, they're like, oh, just

do that again, and we like that. We liked that, Yeah, like do the part where you are exploited over and over and like, which is very of the era and like not at all surprising, but also like, I don't know, this movie did a lot of good things for the people involved, and I feel like it had like a pretty negative I don't know, there's I was like it was Catherine Hardwick was like a little bit wrong for this and I but I also know that this movie means a lot to a lot of people, and I

don't want to like discount that either. I know it's very I mean it was like formative for me and there is nothing like it, right, But there's all these like weird asterisk situations that you don't you can't ignore, and the ethics of this movie are all over the place. It's just like it's it's a it's a bit of a mind fuck. It's one of those things where I think people will be like, well, the ends justify the means because like, and I'm not saying that's what I believe.

I'm I don't think this movie should have been made like this exactly. I think you can explore very intense yet authentic experience that a lot of adolescents have without like exploiting the young people involved in excative But um again, like you said, Jimmy, this movie is because it is thanks to the very close involvement from Nicki Reid, like

telling her own story. This does feel authentic. Not to everyone's experience, of course, but plenty of impressionable teens who are dealing with a whole array of difficult like societal pressures, struggles at home, exposure to like addiction from people they know, and that kind of being a path for their own addiction. Like all this stuff gets explored that is worth exploring and like worth representing on screen. But it's I just feel like there's like if you isolated it, like scene

by scene, choice by choice. There's a lot that I wish had been done differently, I do. I mean, it's like we could talk about this all day of like is there a way to ethically make a movie like this on this budget? I don't know, Like, I don't know. I'm not unhappy it exists. It seems like the main people involved are very happy that they made it. But also I think it's interesting that, like I didn't. I also thought it was cool that Nicky Reid was like

so willing to publicly reflect on the effect that it has. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I mean think I think a lot of actresses would feel pressured to be like, I don't know, it was great and I'm grateful for it, but her being like, you know, yeah, and I and I do think that Catherine Hardwick was like made some irresponsible creative decisions by putting young actors in sexual situations that are not just you know, kind of unethical on its face at all, but also don't even move the story forward.

So what then are you doing? Right? Like it feels like secondhand exploitative, like when you're watching, especially as a young girl, I don't know. It was very like, yeah, why are we watching this specifically? Yeah? Yeah, because it's if it does feel like when you show something like that, especially when you got squishy pubescent brain, you're like, oh, well they have to be showing that this for a reason. And I think these girls are cool, so this is cool.

Like it's just like that baby lizard brain thing where you're just like, oh, this must be like I remember thinking like even though you know when you're twelve, you're like they're doing bad stuff. You want to do it like like school. You want to do it more exciting

than what we're doing right now. Yeah. Well, even from like a young actor's perspective, like being asked to do a scene like that, I mean you're just like absolutely, yeah, I can I feel grow, Yeah, I can do this, like and it's all plate pretend and you don't realize until later that even if that was true in the moments. Yeah, the power dynamics you like had no grasp on. You didn't understand who was going to be watching, what they

were going to be getting out of it. Like all of those things are very and that's on Catherine Hardwick to take care of and like manage, and I just I don't know. There's I'm glad everyone still stands by the movie, but some Catherine Hardwick ship in here. I'm like, you're you were very much an adult like it, and and also this girl like you You've like helped raise this young girl, Like why are you putting her in

this situation? And I mean whatever everyone's relationship is, but like it's hard because I don't want to come off as like super judge if they're all fine with it now, but it's just like it's kind of a mind fuck. Um. I would not want a production like this to happen again,

That's for sure. That's what I know. And also Nicky Reid was saying in this Refinery twenty nine interview that at the time, you know, when she was collaborating with Katherine Hardwick on this script, that she was doing the very thirteen year old thing that the characters in this movie do, which is like overstate their level of experience.

So Nicki Reid was also saying she had done stuff that she hadn't actually done at that point in her life and then had to simulate something she had actually never done and was lying about to her like to

a trusted adult. Katherine Hardwick. It's just confussing, right, because when you when you're that age, you think you're mentally and emotionally more prepared for things than you usually are, and then if you do go through with an experience, you might not even fully realize how traumatic that was until that Alma manifests later and which ironically, I think

this movie illustrates pretty well with its character. There is a lot of irony in this film, so it's wild that it's also doing the thing that it's like illustrating pretty well. So anyways, um, listeners were also interested in

your perspective on this. It's it kind of broke my brain, um, because I am always pro people telling their own stories, but also like when you have, you know, a kid telling their story, you just have to be really really careful and you have to think of I feel like it's on you as a director and a creative collaborator to think of the kid telling their story in the moment and also think of their well being five ten years down the line, because if you're thirteen years old,

you're not thinking past next week. It's like on you as the adult collaborator to look out for a minor's best interest, doy okay um any anything else we wanted to talk about on on that end before we get into the story. I guess the only oh, I guess well before story. I don't know, you guys pick when we talk about this, but I do want to talk about the mom and the portrayal of her, because I was so confused about it as a kid, and even when I rewatched it, I was, I don't know, confused

the right. It kind of reflects Jamie where you're talking about of like the some things I like, some things are confused. It feels very like I don't know all right.

Yeah for me, so I remember having a discussion like this on the like Mrs Doubtfire episode where when we were kids watching that movie, we all thought the Sally Field character was like such an overprotective, kind of overbearing, mean shrew of a mother, and then watching it as an adult, you're like, oh my god, no, I am so on Sally Field's side, and like she was just trying to be a responsible parent, and yeah, she might seem like a kill joy, but she's just like trying

to like from a kid's perspective, but we as adults realize, you know, she's just trying to keep her kids safe, right right. Seeing this movie as an adult looking at the Holly Hunter, the mom character Melanie, I was very sympathetic towards her and and thought that is she someone with faults and is one of those major faults being that she kind of lets people walk all over her and she's too accommodating for sure. Um, but like also

I relate because I can be that way sometimes. But like, to me, as far as the portrayal her character and like that mother daughter relationship, she felt to me like just a very overly a common dating but extremely loving and supportive and like doing her best. Did she maybe

sometimes ignore some red flags? Perhaps? Um, you could chalk that up to like, you know, not wanting to interfere too much, and like your kids like self exploration and growth during this especially very kind of like pivotal confusing scary time. Relationships like this, for the people who have experienced them, can be just like so complicated and tricky.

And I think this movie does a really good job of of representing what felt like a very authentic dynamic between Tracy and Melanie, and at least from where I'm coming from and and and feel free to. You know, everyone's going to have a different perspective on this. But like the Melanie character to me, like I was just like, she's like just doing the best she can. She's a working class person. She's raising two kids as a single parent. The co parent Tracy's in Mason's dad seems to be

like largely absent. This is like unrelated. But I'm also like Catherine Hardwick wise, I'm just trying to put myself in her head. I want to understand. But like that's that's like her ex partner that she's like ripping to sha putting through a human shredder with his kid. I'm like, that's just I mean, that's just a lot. Maybe, I mean, maybe it's deserved, maybe it's undeserved. We don't know. Nikki read later says it was not deserved. But anyways, sorry,

that was just thought I could have it. I was like, I was like, wow, she's really going for it. She's really saying my ex is trash so um, which is you know true more often than not. That I just I just like, once I knew the production stuff, I was like, wow, pretty wild choices were made. But sorry, continue I guess my point is to me, the relationship felt authentic and complicated, and obviously like that relationship is

very tense and Melanie is dealing with a handful. But also I could see another perspective where Melanie is being negligent as a parent and not interfering enough and being ignorant, possibly willfully, possibly not. And I can see if you're watching this movie as a youth, you would be like, Oh, the mom is such a drag. She's trying to control me, She's invading my privacy, she's you know, doing this and that. But I'm looking at it like, no, she's just trying

to make sure you don't get yourself killed. Tracy. I don't know. That's my thought on it. Maggie, what was your perspective on that when you were a kid versus now? Because I because I definitely had like because I Caitlin, I totally agree with you, and I also did not see it that way when I was right. Yeah, I remember, um. I mean, especially with that scene with the mom and like Nikky on the bed where it starts to get like, I don't, I don't know, it almost felt like, you know,

inappropriate a parent territory. UM. I think that really threw us off, because, yeah, it looked throughout most of the film, she's depicted as this like archetypal um overbearing in a way which I think a lot of us saw in our own moms, and not in a bad way, you know. I think, like the way that she cares about her kids, we very much you know, saw and identified with it, and we were all like straightedge, so we weren't doing

any of this stuff. So it was kind of like, yeah, our moms would be that mad if we had done any of it. If a guy had wanted to make out with us, I'm sure that right, this is how what had gone down. But I that see did stick out, and I like, I don't think any of us had really had that much experience with like adults, you know, treating us in that way or like seeing us in

that light or UM. I guess, you know, just speaking for myself as very like naive, UM, and I guess in a good way, like protected from that as a kid, you know, I had very good relationships with most of the adults I knew. UM, so that I think rubbed

all of us in a really weird way. I think it was like maybe some of the first media that we saw where you know, like a kid an adult had a encroaching upon a inappropriate relationship that wasn't you know, a clearly gross guy and you know a young girl who was like rebuffing him or like, you know, there's a lot of media that I think does a good job of speaking to you know, like young women's experience of like older people kind of being two into their business.

But I think this was the first time we saw one like a woman being involved um and that it was like a mom, you know, and we all knew each other's moms. We were all like very close small towns. I think it was in a weird way eye opening. Maybe not eye opening, but I think more more so than like the drugs and stuff, because that, you know, we kind of just assumed was happening, and like we new kids older than us we're taking drugs and so I think that threw us less for a loop. But

I think that was like relationship dynamics. I think all of us were like whoa, yeah, see, I have a complicated thought on that because so so there's also kind of a mother daughter relationship between e V and met Anie or like mother figure. Yeah, when when I was a kid, I thought that the relations I thought that, like I viewed e V as trying to basically like

single white female Tracy. I was so on Tracy side when I was a kid that I would get frustrated with Melanie, even though, like I don't know watching that character now, I feel like it's interesting that other mothers saw that movie and went after Nicky Reid's mother, because I thought Melanie is actually like written and especially portrayed by Holly Hunter, really sympathetically um and like she has

a lot of layers. But when I was a kid, I definitely was like Melanie, Melanie isn't like she's she's all over the place with Tracy. She like and I had like not a totally dissimilar relation, I mean, not identical at all, but like when a parent wants to be your friend but also needs to parent at the same time, that's just like a difficult situation for both parties because at the beginning, it is clear that like Melanie wants to be a cool mom because she's a

chronic people pleaser. We see that in every area of her life, and it doesn't and her daughter is a big part of it, where you know, it's like when that scene that really like hit for me with when Ever and Rachel Wood comes home and she's like someone made from of my socks. I'm not a kid anymore, and her mom takes her out shopping and it's like, okay, you're growing up, Like she's not doing the weird, like I want you to be a little girl forever, and she wants to be the cool mom that takes her

daughter to get closed that she likes. And but then later on, you know, you see Melanie's always trying to kind of have it both ways, and it's not possible to have it both ways in a lot of situations. And that comes up again with when she brings Evie and Tracy to the store that they love to shoplift from, and you know, mel is like, wait, I need to

call your guardian. But it is still like in a cool way though, and then she like has She's like, well, your guardian said that you can't be alone, but I'm cool and I'll get you pants and like, but as a kid, I saw I saw Melon sort of was like why isn't she why can't she see what Tracy needs. Why is she letting this guy stay around? And like,

I just didn't understand the adult next. I still think that Brady shouldn't be around those kids, and especially if she had whatever like that the promises that your parents make you and your kid are sacred. And the fact that she told her kids, Okay, he's not going to be around anymore and then he was still around, that's a huge deal and like that is a failure of

parenting on her part. I thought then and still now, But now I can understand the Melanie like she It sounds like she's been through the fucking Ringer and had moments in her life where she really needed love and support from some from other people, and she wants to be that person when people she loves is in trouble. But sometimes it's like you can't save everybody, and like it's just this whole I don't know, Yeah, my my, I've my opinion on her when I was twelve was

not super favorable. And now it's like I think that she's like, Holly Hunter did an amazing job, and I guess that she Holly Hunter like asked to be an executive producer on the movie so she could help shape the character in a more sympathetic way. Um, so she's the best. Yeah, And to go back to I think like the dynamic that you were talking about, Maggie, between Melanie and Evie were you talking about. So there's like a scene where like Evie kisses Melanie on the blips.

So there's a few scenes similar. That was the most extreme, but there's examples throughout the movie of how I perceived this was. Evie is an extremely manipulative person, right. She perceives that Melanie is very accommodating and is very much a people pleaser, and knows that she's going to be

very easy to manipulate and exploit. So she does different things where she like, for example, that scene where she kisses Melanie on the mouth, you can see how like taken aback and weird it out Melanie is by that. And there's another scene where Evie confides in Melanie that she was abused by her guardian's boyfriend and and then like you know, Melanie's like, oh my god. And then there's like kind of a weird hug that they share that like Tracy walks into and she's like, what the

hell is going on here? And it's also I mean, I watching that back now, I've I used to feel more like I think because it was just like whatever,

you're twelve and you have your own mommy problems. But like I was, like, Evie is stealing Tracy's mom and like, and Mel isn't doing enough to like draw boundaries with her, and that has to be hurtful for Tracy because anytime like your parents like is like I don't know, like you get jealous in this weird way when you're a kid and your parent is like paying attention to someone

who isn't you or your sibling. Right, My mom ran a daycare, so I was constantly like, but this is my mom and like, you know, like that that does

stick with you. But I thought, like what I what I didn't internalize is that Mel would have seen a lot of herself in Evie and wanted to help her, and like they do connect in that scene where Evie, you know, I mean, it's it is tricky where it's like there's kind of this question looming over Evie's character of like what is the truth and what isn't I think it is heavily implied that she is not telling the truth about everything, or she's overstating a lot of

stuff and is willing to throw other people under the bus if she feels backed into a corner. But it seems like she knows exactly what to say to appeal to mel And you know, mel I was like, well, I didn't have a mom around when I was growing up either, So if you need a mother figure, I guess sure you can stay here like where, Like I think you can see it as Evie being legitimately desperate

for a supportive mother figure. You can also see a lot of those interactions as Evie manipulating Melanie to get what she wants and possibly lying about some stuff. It could be both things, because Evy is clearly someone who comes from the very rough background, and you know it, is probably doing a lot of this stuff as like

a survival technique or some kind of coping mechanism. So like, obviously her behavior didn't happen in a vacuum, we don't really know that much about her background because we also don't know what is the truth and what's not because we see her lie effortlessly, effortlessly, effortlessly constantly, so you you don't really know what she's telling the truth about and what she isn't, but we can assume that she, you know, had a pretty unstable upbringing and which informed

a lot of her behavior. So it's it's just so complicated and the fact that like Melanie is like kind of and it's not her fault that she's easily manipulated, but you also kind of have to like examine yourself, like you know, different things when you're a parent, in in your kids safety is at stake here, So like it's just so complicated, but this is all like such real stuff that a lot of people deal with, So like it's she can be frustrating, but I think, like

watching it now, it's like she does come by all of her problems honestly, and in the in the writing of the movie, it's like that's not something that comes out of left field, that she would be very easily manipulated by someone who is like, I don't have anyone else in the world. Will you help me? Because that's how her relationship with her boyfriend works, And that's how

her relationship with her friend works. Like people know if they show up at Mel's house and they're like, I need a place to crash, I need a hot meal I need something like if she can give it to them, she will, which is like a really hard quality to

dislike about someone, But I do. I think that it's kind of a rare example of seeing you know that that kind of behavior, no matter how honestly you come by it and how well intentioned it is, can hurt other people, and it can result in like neglecting other stuff. And I think, I mean, I do remember, like when I first saw the movie, being like, how does she

have no idea what's going on? Her daughter is coming home all the time visibly fucked up and is rarely called out on it, and that is something that I

still sort of felt on that. I feel like that, like I don't even know if that's a criticism, it's just like something that is always stuck with me because I know that that hopen and I know that, like, you know, whatever, none of us are parents, and you know, her kid is clearly in trouble and it seems like she doesn't know what to do, so she's ignoring the problem, which definitely happens, but it's frustrating to watch. Or it's

just like your kid needs you, mel I know. And then I think her being a recovering addict informs a lot of just sort of you know, like how how she is, how she parents, even like the non addressing things. It's probably an overcorrection of well, if I am really strict with her, she'll just go towards it more, you know, like as right, like a self, that's how I did it. So, you know, I do like that. It's complicated though, because I feel like a lot of these movies, especially ones

that are written from like a teenage perspective. You know, she has said in retrospect that you know, things are exaggerated and stuff, which like, even as a thirteen year old, I was like, yeah, this is a little know, like melo dramatic if we're you know, gonna label at something.

But I do like that it's complicating because I think that is so much rarer and feels more real than a lot of the other like go ask Alice like that is so you know, like tunnel vision uncomplicated, don't do drugs, um Whereas yeah, this you know, adds a lot of human layers to the story of you know,

teenage girl rebelling for sure. Part of that too, something that I thought was handled in like an interesting and nuanced way was the way that media influences the teens, where there's like often a lot of shots of like billboards, advertisements, ones that are like are using sex to sell and like using Western beauty standard images to you know, influence people to buy things and like convince people they need

to look a certain way. And and you see, like show to this and you see it's not necessarily uh, it's it's more like, I guess implied that these things are affecting the girls, but it's not a hard like I like that, it's not super I mean, and there are some points where it's literally like zoo men on Calvin Klein billboard, Like I felt I felt like they kind of bop you over the head with it a little bit without them talking about it, which which did

feel authentic to me, because it's like you don't necessarily realize that that's what's happening, but they're surrounded by it, especially like these these l a kids, Oh baby, like you're super surrounded by it. And then like it's implied that Tracy kind of stops eating or is barely eating. It seems like e V doesn't eat that much. She mentions like, you know, if you drink ten cups of

ice water a day, you'll burn three D calories. Like, it's clear that these girls are very concerned about the way they look, how skinny they are, and you know, there is a known correlation between media images and disordered eating, especially in young people, young girls especially. I mean, like, I feel like early two thousands it was at its

fucking peak. It's even seeing the low rise jeans culture of this movie is so triggering You're like, so, yeah, I guess my My point is, like, I think this movie, not super overtly or like at least not in dialogue, but more in just like images, explores how influential media is, especially to teens who are so susceptible and you know, easily influenced by the images they consume. And um, there's also a scene where Tracy is like about to go out with that guy Hobby, and e V is like,

you don't even know how to kiss, do you? And Tracy is like, yeah, I do. Noel and I practice with cruel intentions fifty times, which I think the implication is there that they kissed each other the way that Selma Blair and um, Sarah Michelle Gellar do in cruel intentions. So it's like, yeah, media influencing, like a movie influencing these girls, and like, I mean, I I do love it.

I like, I think it's so like and and the way that I mean, I guess kind of transferring to There was a scene that I mean, when I was watching it and I was a kid, I was like, Oh, they kiss wow, because and I thought that that scene, I mean, ethics wise, we could get into it with what that means for the actors. As far as the characters go, I thought it was pretty well done. And it felt very like whenever when when you're thirteen, your

sexuality is very elusive. Um, I know that I was definitely kiss kiss kissing my friends when I was thirteen. And the fact that they're framing it as practice and maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Like it just felt like a very authentic experience having two young actors to do that in a movie that opens up another door.

I will say that Evan rachel Wood, who came out as bisexual in sometime in the early UM later was like I had the biggest crush on Nicky Reid and it was so embarrassing that my mom had to watch me kiss my crush, and I couldn't tell anyone that, Like, I mean in the early two thousands, I mean, the discussion around bisexuality in the early two thousand's fucking forget it.

But I thought of that. I mean, we've seen so much queer baby scenes that like don't work and that I don't know, that's not how I interpreted that scene. That felt very like authentic to experiences that um I either had had or wanted to have at the time of watching this movie. I don't remember of all the things that happened in the movie, that was scene that felt like retrospectively important for me to see and that you know, I'm and I'm glad it was like treated

in that way. Um yeah, there was still some like you know, like teenage of that era, like I don't know, just sort of attitude toward it, because like Tracy says something like, oh, you want me to prove it to you? You like lesbo, right, I mean, but also like that's defensive kids ship like exactly. Yeah, just another thing that like, you know, problematic kids saying problematic things because kids are you know, can be problematic. Kids are problematic, You're still problematic.

I was, I would argue like that like a kids saying that in defensively in two thousand three, I probably would have done that if I was, because there was no discussion around bisexuality at that time. So you're like, I don't know, like when am I? What's wrong with me? Like I felt weird about myself all the time? You know, it felt it's very authentic. Yeah, for sure. Um, speaking of kissing, here's a I'd love to start every sentence that way. Always something that I took big issue with.

But I'm also interested to hear different people's perspectives on this listener's perspectives. But it felt to me so obviously this movie centers whiteness in a pretty big way, as as many coming of age stories do, and it felt to me so you there are a number of characters of color, teens of color, and we learn a few of their names. One is Hobby, one is KK. There's another guy named Reuben. I don't know who Reuben is, but his name gets mentioned. It seems like he's like

kind of dating Evie. Anyway, it felt to me as though, because so much of this movie is like look at the risky dangerous, wild things these girls are getting into that black teens are being used by the movie to imply that, like kissing a black kid is yet another dangerous thing that they're doing, and it wouldn't be as wild if they were kissing white boys, but because they're kissing black boys. Yeah, it felt like very coded. And that was one of the things where it was like,

not oddly shallowy something since movie our shallow. That felt like a very shallowy, like surface level decision that had no you know, like especially because we don't learn anything else about those characters except that, like one of them likes to beat box, Like we don't know anything about them. I think I think it's bad writing. And if it

wasn't intended that way, then you need to give characters context. Exactly, a black teenager's experience exists in a void, whereas like Tracy's life is extremely complicated, which it is, but it's like we need to extend that to everybody. Katherine Hardwick, right, Yes, like they could have added you know, there's no reason not to, Like why don't we know those kids, Why didn't why didn't we get introduced to them at the

beginning of the movie you know, like why aren't they characters? Right, Yeah, they're just not given characters at all. And there's a lot of I felt like, I mean, and this is kind of like a renteres thrown and by the fact that this is like Nicky Reid talking about her own experience, but even the idea of like casting a like blonde, pale white girl as like being corrupted by a young girl with just darker features than her. It's just like it's so like in terms of the parts of this

movie that doesn't work. It's all very over the top, not challenging anything in terms of like who this movie considers as worthy of context and empathy and too isn't And then like the only thing this movie does to attempt to comment on race at all is Tracy says something like if everyone married someone from a different race, then in one generation there would be no prejudice, which is such a naive way to the most white girls. Should I ever, that's like it um, it made me cringe.

It made me uncomfortable, And then we cut to the next scene, right right, yeah, I I also felt like it's not I mean, and we've touched on this on the show before, where it like it's not enough to cast inclusively, like you need to like there needs to be care and thought given to characters of all races. Like it. It sounds so goofy simple, but it doesn't do it. It feels like white people not knowing how

to write black characters. It felt like a boomer white lady made the movie exactly exactly because this movie does subvert a fair amount of things. But yeah, in terms of like challenging what characters are are given and which are not, that we barely learned character's names. I think we learned the names of the boys that they hook up with, but they don't exist outside of that context. So versions I did like, I liked Um, he wasn't in the movie a lot. But I did like the

brother character. I thought that that was pretty well done. Of like, he's a pubescent boy and therefore sucks, but also like does care a lot about his sister and is visibly frustrated with his mom and his sister for reasons that make a lot of sense. But also he's a kid and there's not really a lot he can do, And I thought that character was well written. What do we think of Brady opening the flow? Brady. I was like, it was seemed to see is he the role model

of the century. No, but he's also someone struggling with addiction. He mentions like wanting to relapse because in like kind of being triggered by the environment in this household is sort of like kind of dangerous for him and to tempting, so he leaves. But then you also see him like be someone who does seem to care about these kids and who wants to be as present as possible. You know, it's just like a person going through a lot, trying

their best. Again, Um, I think that I think that addiction is given more empathy in this movie than we usually see in media. But I don't know. I just I didn't honestly pay him that much thought. So I was watching, I don't know. I was trying to figure it because I guess my main thing and again I'm bringing my youth baggage to this as well, was like, did did he know that Melanie had promised to her

kids that he wouldn't be around? Because if so, I feel like he shouldn't be around and it's disrespectful to the family to be around. If he was aware that the chill did not want him there and that it had been said he wouldn't be there. That was something that like pained for me when I was twelve for personal reasons also, Um, but I do agree that it's like he does care about the family and like he does.

I I thought, like that moment where mel is just at the end of her rope and she's tearing up the shitty floor and like she's just like had it. He shows up for her in that moment and like everyone's doing the best they can. And yeah, I agree, I I yeah, I remember really not liking that character when I was a kid and I was like, why is he here? He shouldn't be here. But then as an adult, so I'm like, there's more, there's more nuance that exists in the world than I realized when I

was twelve. Go figure, Yeah, we had someone, um you know close to her family and I'd be over that all the time and they would have you know, a Brady who change, you know who change, and you know, a Brady for every season. Um. Yeah, So it was

something that was like recognizable. Um yeah, and especially like in the moments where he is there for her, you know, and you can you know when you're around that you'll see that peek through every once in a while, like like a genuine, like caring moment or just like something that you know makes it seem like it is making the mom's life or you know, something for them. Yeah,

I agree. Yeah, I think that Like when I was a kid, I viewed him as being very selfish, but then like watching it as an adult, I was watching it from Tracy's perspective as a kid, and I was like, she isn't like he must yeah, which like he did, like did enough for them to be like, he's not coming back, right, But I thought it was interesting. Yeah.

I thought that this movie, of the things that we are critical of and right so um, addiction was something that was handled I think with a fair amount of nuance. Um my last big thing, and we mentioned this already, but I just want to hit on it again because I really don't like this. When it appears in movies is when it's inevitable that young people are going to find a movie don't show them how to self harm on screen. That is so fucked up. It's one of

my least favorite coming of age movie choices. Um, any sort of self harm if there is a chance that a kid is going to see it, imply you don't need to show and an adult audience will know what you're fucking talking about. I really hate that they showed that. I don't like that Evan Rachel would even had to act it out. You know, you can even show like whatever scars in my My opinion is like you can show that people will get it. It will be very upsetting,

and it won't show kids how to self harm. Yeah, so some irresponsible choices were made in conclusion, yes, but it's also a movie that you know, feels very authentic and many other regards. So this, I mean, this is talk about a mixed bag of a movie. Talk about the next bag um. Yeah, I'm very curious of what our listeners experience with this movie is. I feel like there's a wide spectrum of people's opinions and experiences with it.

I know that there's a lot of young people that really glommed onto it as a kid and felt seen because there's not a lot of movies about young girls growing up in unstable households that show a lot of sides to a lot of people, Like I understand why a lot of people felt seen by this movie, and then there's also whatever we've had. We've been talking about it for two hours. There's a lot of ship going on.

I'm also curious, listeners if you have an answer for this of like more modern or maybe you know, less ethically ambiguous but within the same style, or like you know, more modern depictions of this and that makes sense, or like what did what did thirteen open the doors for? You know? I feel like Euphoria is like gen Z's

kind of version of this, which also makes some questionable choices. Well, I would saying, and I think they're worse off for it, because I don't like that Euphoria is famously written by an adult man and like you don't have a nikky read in the mix with Euphoria, which is I think like for the ethical fucking black hole it opens up.

I think what makes thirteen really unique is that a kid's voice was heavily prioritized, and I think that that is like part of what makes it special versus versus a euphoria where it's an adult guesting their way around youth experience. Right at the same criticism about eighth grade, but no one wanted to hear that. People they were already We're already into the people are never ready. I really love that movie, but it's like yeah, anyways, yeah right. Um,

does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? Thirteen? No, No, I think we covered it. It definitely passes. The fact has no doubt about it. Most of the movie I mean not that I mean talking about kissing boys and talking about difficult relationships with father, brother and Brady comes up, but like a large portion of the movie is women talking to each other and coming of age and all that stuff. Also like an example of mommy issues, which

I think is becoming more popular. I mean Tangled, you know, great, great mommy, big week for mommy issues on the factal cast honestly, but yeah, I I agree. I think that the more glaring issue is it's all uh white women talking to each other for the movie. Yeah yeah, yes, Um. So that brings us to our nipple scales zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional

feminist lens um tricky one. Well. Also, this movie is like kind of a biopic basically, which like are always tricky to rate on the nipple skille because it's like, this is about a real person's experience, but also it is fictionalized because Ev is not a real person. That all that was the laws I wanted to say. I thought that the character that was developed the least well was Ev, which makes sense because that's literally the only

character that's not based on a person in Nikki Reid's life. Yeah, or writing criticism, right, I read something that, like, so Nikki read when she was like twelve or thirteen, her friend got arrested for selling acid, and like that's kind of who e. V Is based on, but like not fully, it's just sort of like that experience of like a teen kid getting arrested for selling acid. Let's sort of

map a character onto that experience. And that's like, how more more like general than because it's like Tracy is so specific and it's so like demonstrably Nikki Reid where

it's like Ev. I mean, part of the movie is like you're supposed to be guessing around what is true about her life and what isn't um, which I feel like honestly I would have I would rather have done away with that and let us, like, I think it's more impactful if we do know what her life experiences versus because I feel like that takes her into like this villain territory, or that's how I interpreted it at

the time. Unreliable narrator, Yes, right, when it's like that character deserves empathy, but we but in order to really ampathize with her, we would need to know who she has, more things about her, right. So, oh gosh, it's so, as we have discussed, there are you know, kind of like behind the scenes things that you can call into question as far as the ethics of, you know, making

teen actors do sexually explicit things on camera. It was handled probably as responsibly as possible if you're going to make the choice to do that, but you could say, maybe don't make that choice at all, because it's unethical to make the choice at all. Um. So there's that. There's the way again blackness is treated and used to

suggest to suggest danger. Yeah, danger, which is such a fucking harmful thing to do because of like white America's perception of blackness is and black youth especially is often correlated with danger, and it's so harmful and so sinister, and that the movie makes suggestions at that is really fucked up. Um. But then like on the other hand, this is like a story about a teenager's experience told from the perspective, literally co writing the script of a teenager.

Some things were clearly exaggerated for like cinematic effect. I don't know, it's it's tricky, it's a it's a mixed bag. As we've said, I would give this movie. I don't know. The things that it handles irresponsibly, like really are upsetting enough to maybe even knock it down to like I'm thinking somewhere between like a two and a three, and maybe it's just like a two point five kind of thing. I don't know, not the nipple scale, what does it

even mean. It's also a flawed metric. It's perfect. I think I'm gonna I'm gonna go three, But I might be leaning a little bit on nostalgia there. Um. And also I think that my opinion would be heavily swayed by how the actors feel about it now. And sure that's my justification for going with three. I also just have like a bizarre attachment to this movie. Um, it

feels like a very micro generational movie. Um. But because Nikki Reid, I mean, I really feel terribly that it had a negative effect on Nicki Reid's life, she was a kid. How would you possibly fucking know what would happen? And but listening to that interview that they did, reflecting on this time and knowing that everyone feels okay about it and that they don't regret having made it, I feel a little more lenient on that point. However, do

I think movies should be made this way? No? No, this is like strictly viewing it in retrospect, like would not advocate for this style of filmmaking. I think it's potentially could have really really been horrible, and it's very lucky that it wasn't. And I'm glad all the precautions that were taken we were taken, but also even that wouldn't have guaranteed, Like even though every precaution was taken, they still had a negative effect on the child's life

who was telling her story, Maggie, how about you? Yeah?

I think I think I'm also going to go with the three for similar reasons, and that it feels almost like a relic of this very specific time, and it feels like it captured some things, especially like the things are insinuated, like the diet culture, the this the that um I think the other reason I'm going to get into three is purely the aesthetic of it, because I feel like that like defined the aesthetic for a long time of both like low budget films, uh and things

that wanted to be critical. Darling's kind of took on this leg crungy blue color for so long, um that I think it's at least visual lasting impact. I think we've made me don't give enough credit to it. I think part of that is the backwards like, oh, you know, especially men watching it. I didn't know that like a movie about like girls and women could be this like you know, like real, yeah, this grit you know of

which is being all its own. But I think because of that, the style it aesthetic influenced a lot of directors that were working around the same time or you know, we're up and coming and kind of became shorthand for like no, no, no, take my movie series slee um yea, which I think that alone, watching it was like damn like that. Just the look of this did a lot. And of course then we had all of the Twilight series which pay homage to this blue grade. This became

the Hardwick House style. But Catherine Hardwick only directed the first one I know, and that is I mean, for all the rightful criticism around Katherine Hardwick in regards to this movie, she still should have been allowed to direct the other point, like, oh my god, absolutely yeah. But yeah, So you know, if you haven't seen this movie, maybe

watch it for the static. I think like it kind of communicates a lot where the story may stumble here or there, or the characters are sometimes you know, viewing it as a moment in time, I think is the easiest way to interact with this movie now, very time capsuling. Yeah, I don't think that the movies like this, But also do I think that this is like more off authentic

than a euphoria in some ways. Yes, I do like that it like focuses a mother daughter relationship and in a complicated one at that that's very relatable for a lot of people. And I think it is important to see things like this, issues like this, things that teenage girls deal with to be given the like cinematic respect of like, yeah, it is a big deal to deal

with these things. Um, yeah, for sure. Yeah. As far as Caitlin's rombo meter goes, sorry to give it a zero out of t Yeah, I don't know twists, they're uh the last thing because I just didn't know this, and I guess I wouldn't have guessed it for a movie this indie. Um, Holly Hunter was nominated for an Oscar for this movie. It kind of a fair amount of awards attention. It got some Golden Globe attention. I

think some like Baptist stuff. Yeah, but yeah, I UM, I thought, I thought Holly Hunter did an incredible job in this movie. I really, this is incredible herself, Like forget it, oh, I mean it's a Holly Hunter. Really. I feel like we've covered a fair amount. I feel like we we always mentioned that we love her, but like she's just special, She's got range, she does she really does well. Well there's our chat on and on

that note, I will say, I'll tag on that. If anyone watched this and like kind of liked it, maybe check out the films by Greg Iraqi, who does he worked more on the eighties, but he does extremely I thought provoking. Queer cinema usually depicting young, um, younger not this young, but like younger teens. UM that feels very much like their perspective is like respected and um feels important. He's just also just a great director or so cool. Yeah,

I don't know. Check out some of the stuff. Hell yeah, um cool. Well, Maggie, thank you for bringing us this real, really complicated text bratcher. Yeah rich text. Yeah. Where can we find you on the world Wide Web? Oh? Man? Unfortunately I am still on the internet one day no longer, but yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Just my name Maggie Mayfish m a e like my dad, great grandmother, not like the month the real ones now uh. And

also on YouTube. I have another video coming out. I don't know when this is being released, but we have a video on Jim Carrey's depiction of Dr Eggman from the Sonic series and was he doing an Elon Musk question? Yes, that's that's our rich text for the next month. Is Sonic amazing? Yes? Everyone, please check out Maggie's stuff. And then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. Throw us a little rate and review and give us follow and if you're feelings, you're at it bulls.

And we've got a Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast where you get to bonus episodes every month plus access to the entire back catalog. This month, we're you know, knocking out a couple popular requests. And it's September, so we're doing back to schools. We're doing Never Been Kissed and Pitch Perfect. It's perfect, had I'm finally my big boss, my big boss of Bectel cast. I've been now, I've seen it. I just don't like it, and I know everyone loves it and so it's gonna be pissed

at me. Maybe I'll love it. I haven't seen it since it came out. Maybe maybe I just have a thing against acapella groups, so like it was never gonna be. That's the thing I really as a former acapella radio producer, um sorry to out myself. I produced an acapella radio show for no less than two and a half years and did it traumatize me? Obviously because they're no wonder. Yeah yeah, I was never the same. My good my goodness. Well, I guess tune into our Matreon to hear Jamie unpack

all of her acapella related trauma. Yeah yeah yeah. Could I at one point named twenty Boston area acapella groups and rank them by preference? Maybe? WHOA But we don't want to. Literally, the show has been on for six years and I have not been able to go there. Oh my goodness, I had no idea. Well, if you need some merch, you can go to uh T public dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast and grab yourself some teas, some stickers, some pillows and the other items. Follow your heart.

We got pillows, I love. I love my Becktel Cast. Pillows. Not gonna lie. I might get some more um. And with that, let's repair our relationships with our moms. Let's do it. Let's do it. Bye bye bye