The Witches (1990)

you have a snake? Um? Yeah, I have a snake. But that's just because I know you love playing with snakes. Okay, pointed, Um, and none of your business what I do in my spare time. Well, I guess I'll I'll think about it, but only if you promised to only appear in one scene and never come back. Sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Another perfect introduction, flawless, no notes.

My name is Jamie Loft, as my name is Caitlin Dronte, and this is our show in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the beck Told test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion representation in cinema. Do you have one of those Twitter like scary Halloween names? Do you have you ever done that? I've never done that. I have done it in the past. I forgot to do it this year, Slash couldn't think of anything clever. And have you have you done? I

know you've done Caitlin Bante, right, Bante? Yeah, which doesn't even really make sense. I had one well, one year I did nine tip Dracula because that is an anagram of my name. Who could forget nine tip Jack? And then there was another one I did that I was like, I'll never top this. This is genius and I'm so smart, but I couldn't. I can't remember what it was. So this is not a good story. I've never I've never had one. I don't I've never been able. But also

I'm notoriously like not good with puns. I just don't have a good brain for it. And so I'm like, maybe there's one that's just been sitting in front of me my whole fucking life, But I've never Boo doesn't fit any any damn place in my name. Ghost doesn't fit what rhymes with Jamie scared, scare me loftus scar that sucks. That sucks. I hate it about it. Wait, okay, I actually, um, I think I can come around to this. Um Okay, can I tell you what the Becteal test is?

Please at all pass the Bechtel test, by the way, which is just proof that it doesn't. Although you could argue that that was not a conversation that moved the episode forward in a meaningful way. So I disagree. I completely disagree. So so. The Bechdel test um is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace test um. It was originally made as a kind of one off joke metric in Alican Becktel's comic Dikes to Watch Out For which here's your occasional

reminder that you should read that comic. I have the full collection and it fucking rocks. And there's a lot of different versions of this metric. The one we use requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names such as Caitlin Bronte and Scare Me Loft have a conversation about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue, and it does need to move the podcast the Bechtel Cast forward in order to count

this this movie. Today we're covering the Witches n Um, not to be confused with The Witches twenty, which no longer exists, has been wiped from the record, and I have like just a little it doesn't have to do with intersectional feminism, but it does have to do with predatory capitalism, so sort of it does. So we'll get there later. But nine nine Angelic Houston The Witches is the topic of today's discussion, and I thought it would pass the Bucktel test a little more handily than it does,

I'll be quite honest. But discussion for later, Jamie, what is your relationship to this film slash intellectual property? Nothing? Nothing at all. I don't I I couldn't tell you why I didn't watch this movie growing up. But I have no nostalgic attachment to it. I think the most nostalgic attachment I have to this movie is just the idea of Angelica Houston. And that's a powerful thing. Yes, And I always like she is so campy, and like,

I think she's really fun in this movie. I think it is like I didn't know Jim Henson was involved

in like I truly knew basically nothing. I just knew it was a World Doll book that I never read, and this is a movie that I've never seen, and so, uh, this has been a request we've been getting for some time, and I think we there was an uptick in it when the reboot was released, which I've only seen clips of, but is by all accounts so like also whatever not good and no one has any nostalgic attachment to it either, so whatever, So Mecas is in his flop era, baby,

he did, gosh, she's been in his flop era because what what is it? We he welcomed us to Marwin and we were like, I'm I'm weaving and then what did he do it? He said what about Anne Hathaway and the Witches? And You're like that sounds so Phoebe Waller Bridges right there, like what do you? What are you doing? And then most recently he was like, how

about Pinocchio? We were okay, no thanks, but and then we were like but also but also soft plug for the Matreon when we will be covering the Pinocchio Wars, which Robert Zemeckis in his flop, Era has already managed, I think, to lose in advance. The battle has not even started and he's already lost. Because I everyone hated that damn movie and it looks so scary. This movie also looks so scary, but in a very different way. I will say, right at the top, apologies to people

with a nostalgic attachment to the spoofy. I did not like this movie. Uh and I I think it shows all of and this is like been criticism since the book came out. The book was released in eighty three. We famously don't read books, but I did research the differences and adaptation changes, and then this came out in and rold All, who we'll get back to. We've just we've covered we covered this last year on our Matilda episode, but it is even more relevant in this adaptation than

it was in Matilda. I think of just this is just like late Era Roll Doll, like all of his famous prejudices against women and Jewish people in particular, and Jewish women in particular are just all like cannon to the story. And I h Angelica Houston is great, but I just really had a hard time with this one, Caitlin, what's your history with the Witches? Nine? I had not seen this movie either, something that it seems like I would have seen as a kid growing up. But I

don't think it was on TV a lot. Well, yes, you didn't watch a lot of TV and I didn't even have cable. Yeah, and I didn't watch much TV as a kid. Also, I think, like my family is just like not a spooky movie family. I missed a lot of spooky movie Like I had never seen hocus Pocus until well into my adulthood. Not that that's like a scary, but like even just like I mean it is like kid, kid, kid, And I think this movie is like kids scary, oh my god. Yeah, and also

like kind of adult scary. Also, I do think like there's so much wrong with like I don't like this movie. I do think it was a kind of cool, bold and interesting choice cool bold interesting. Wow, good words um that they thank you that they hired a horror like a famous horror director to do this movie. Like he took the assignment and he's like, I'm just gonna do this like I do my grown up movies. Is that cool?

And you're like, I don't know. Um. The main thing I knew about this movie going in is that it traumatized every child who had ever seen it. And I understand why because the horror imagery in this movie is horrific and I brutally yeah. Yeah, And I'm sure if I had seen it as a child, I would have

been similarly traumatized. And I read that the director Nicholas Rogue cut scenes from the movie that he thought would be too scary for children after he saw his son's reaction to the original HUT, so it was going to be even scarier and he cut some of it out. That is so gnarly. Uh. I want like just being the kid of a horror director and then just being like, all right, so if this trauma like you're you being traumatized today could say I have other children for being

traumatized in this exact same way. Do you accept the assignment? That's so all. I want Nicholas Rogue's kids to tell us what was in the scenes. That's how what would they what? I guess? Okay, I don't know. Sorry finished, So, so your history is so I hadn't seen the movie, but I did read the book as a kid. Oh, we had a few Roal Doll books lying around the house, and so I probably read this book when I was

maybe like ten or so. I also read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory around that time, but I think those are the only two Roal Doll books I ever read. But I liked the book The Witches, and I thought it was very scary reading it as a kid. Um, So I I have, I would say, not even nostalgic attachment to this story. But I went into the movie knowing what it was going to be about and what would happen in it, and remember the story pretty well, so like when the events of the movie were unfolding,

I was like, oh, yeah, that does happen. The ending is um quite different in the book. We'll talk about that, but uh yeah, I um, I kind of I mean for all the traumatic imagery that Nicholas rogue because he was really a cinematographer, but like, yeah, like for all the traumatic imagery he offers up. I kind of liked that they changed the ending of like because the I mean, I didn't realize the ending of the book is brutal.

I think that that's how the reboot ends, where it's just like what they're like, the kid is going to be a mouse forever and he has nine years to live and he knows that. You're like, oh yeah, rough. Yeah. So all this to say, I had I was familiar with this story going in, but I hadn't seen the movie. Definitely would have been traumatized by the imagery as a kid, because as even as an adult, I was like, oh my, like the transformations, like the scenes of like humans transforming

into mice. That is some of the scariest ship I've ever seen. It's so yeah, this movie would have fucked me up. I'm glad I didn't see it when as a kid. Yeah, um, shall I do the recap and we'll go from there. Let's do the recap and then you know what, let's go from there. Okay, fine, we will Okay, now we're fighting. Okay. So we open on a grandmother telling her grandson Luke, who is we were like also recently talking about how we do not know how old children are. I guess he's like nine. I

guess he's canonically nine. Okay, Oh, maybe I'm better at this than I thought. She is telling Luke about witches. They are evil, they hate children, They basically hunt children for sport, and she's lost a finger. Yes to to a witch encounter. We press zoom. Maybe that's the scene that are cut. Maybe you got to see Angelica Houston bite Grandma's finger off. Maybe so. Grandma tells Luke that

which is dress in ordinary clothes. They look like ordinary women, they live ordinary lives, but there are ways to spot a real witch. One. They're bald, so they wear wigs which itch and give them a scalp rash. Now, if the baldest women aren't in charge in this movie, I mean, this movie follows the rule. It enforces the rule. It Yeah, I didn't even exist when this movie came out and

people were following that damn rule. Yeah. Um. The second telltale sign is that their eyes have like a purplish hue to them real which is also don't have toes, and so their their feet are just square, so they never wear pointed shoes and sure I guess uh. They also have a very keen sense of smell and they can smell children, and children smell very bad to them, and the cleaner child is the stinkier they are to

a witch. Also, Grandma tells Luke about the grand high witch, which is like the leader, which is the leader of all the witches. Get it anyway, I get it. I get it. So Grandma also tells this story about her childhood best friend named Erica, who was abducted by a witch. So we get all this backstory about witches. You know, I was thinking, I was, I was trying to put myself in like baby brain, and I think that I

would have been afraid of the horror imagery. But I but I wonder like and for I am genuinely curious for for those who have a nostalgic attachment to this movie, were you more scared by the horror imagery? Or were you more scared by ever looking at a painting again and ever seeing someone in a painting being like that they're going to die there? Yeah, that was the scary.

I was like, that would have sucked me up. That's very current because I had that haunted Mandy Moore poster right, Oh my gosh, and she still lives there in your poster, in my poster. Yeah. It's one of It's one of those conspiracy theories where the actress who's been on This is Us for five years is a is a double switched out by the government. The real Mandy Moore lives in your poster still in my childhood bedroom. Yeah, yeah, no,

I believe it. Yeah. Okay, So one day Luke's parents die in an accident, so Grandma becoming this batman him right, Yeah, Luke wayne over here with his parents being like, they're like bye, and then and then like the police have her dress or something. I was like, what happened to that? I'm not sure what we were looking at, but Luca

Luke to them. Luca's orphaned and Grandma becomes his primary caregiver, so she takes him to England, where a woman with purple eyes tries to give a snake to Luke and a chocolate bar, and I'm like, is that a Willy Wonka chocolate bar? Are we? You know? Are we what's happening here? We're going to really? I mean we talked about it until the Tupit just like the way rold Doll turns food into weapons is so oh gosh. Yeah, I will say this first witch. I liked her a

lot and I she had perfect teeth. Okay, yeah, another telltale sign of witches. I have shitty I think I just have gum disease. So when someone has nice teeth, I'm like, okay, who are you a millionaire? Okay? So then on Luke's birthday, Grandma gives him some mice, which he names William and Mary. Horrible gift, I gift bad mice names. There, I said it are they kids? I

don't think because they can't talk. They're just mice, right, And they're not from the Henson the Creature the creature shop, right, Yeah, yeah, they're just another yeah. But oh no. Grandma collapses, she has fallen ill. Turns out she has diabetes. But when she recovers, she takes Luke and his mice on a little trip to a hotel by the sea to Casa

day Mr Bean. Mr Bean is the hotel manager. Also at this hotel, dozens of women show up for the convention for the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. And that's the most prepositions I've ever said in a single sentence. That is that of all the that gotta chuckle out of me, because I was like, that's the witch there? Um, did you pick up on? This is so goofy? But they made a diabetes joke

in this movie. I was like, that's the most there's not a lot of things about this movie outside of the wild number of tropes that are used in a bad way. But like, this movie isn't like especially dated to me. I guess a little bit with the clothes, but most world all movies kind of feel a little bit like out of time. But they just drop a diabetes joke, like yeah, and that commercial didn't exist till

I was like, damn, you're showing your hands. You couldn't you couldn't resist making a nine year old said diabetes tomfoolery indeed. Okay, So Angelica Houston has entered the film. She seems to be the leader of this royal Society for the Prevention of cruel teacher children, and she's so hot and she's very hot. Her name is Miss Ernst, and the women adore her. And then there's some little clues that seems like maybe these are not women who want to prevent cruelty to children, but maybe they want

to cause cruelty to children because maybe they're witches. Oh there is I mean, I I you know, exploiting the inherent sinister nature of a hotel convention is kind of fun. Yeah, that's a fun idea. Um, I'm trying to figure out is this this movie came out, this is the year before The Adams Family, So this is I feel like Angela Houston's She's just she's just warming up for the main events for more Tisia. Yeah, definitely. Okay. So then Luke explores the hotel. He meets another boy named Bruno.

Luke gets yelled at by Mr Bean for having loose mice, and we're literally like Mr Bean and you can't you can't done see it? Yeah, And then we're also like, I guess this is for all these these mice are

like foreshadowing Chekhov's Mouse. Yeah, okay. So Luke is like running around the hotel and he winds up in this big room where the women from the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children a k a. The Witches come in and gather for a meeting, and Luke is hiding in the corner and he watches as all the women remove their shoes and their wigs because guess what,

confirmed they are witches. I thought it was really funny that she has her like Angela he used, and takes her face halfway off before being like, oh wait, is the door closed. That was when I started coming up with my um tory story theory, where I'm just like, this is applying the lodge of toy story, but instead it's just leaving a bunch of women over thirty five in a room alone, and then they turned into evil witches. And that is true. That does happen in real life.

So miss Ernst takes off her face mask because she's the Grand High Witch with a scary face. Miss Ernst is like, you witches are a disgrace. You're not killing enough children, and that's why I created formula eighties six,

which turns children into mice. Another toy story parallel. Much like the character said, miss Ernst is a scientific genius who just needs her energy directed in a more positive direction where yeah, she could really help people, much like Sid's parents should have just been like, you're a creative kid, let's let's take you to it after school program. Anywow, Okay, I'm starting to see the toy story parallels. That's it.

That's the end of the similarities. Yeah, okay, So she's talking about this formula that turns children into mice, and she demonstrates it on that kid Bruno, who she has lured into the room with chocolate. She has already given him the formula. It works on like a time delay, and then the witches and Luke, who is still hiding in the corner, watch as Bruno transforms into a mouse. That transformation is also like truly one of the scariest

things I've ever seen. Yeah, I mean that the raw fucking body horror and this um is just like it is, and that I mean that whole scene that is so long. That was the other thing where I was just like, Wow, this movie gets a lot of mileage out of like very very few locations. But in any case, that scene is so loaded. But just even on its face is Oh, that would have scared the ship out of me. As a kid. Roll hates when children are hungry. What is

wrong with him? He's like, if you're hungry, you're gonna explode. You're gonna too bad. Oh, he's such a fucking asshole. Like you know, I did to say the least, but like, yeah, that was that and to have like this was I think this was like the last movie that Jim Henson was well enough to work on. And he's really uh he put the creature shop to work. It's so fucking scary.

So again, we like listeners. If you happened to see the reboot while it was still available for streaming, we couldn't watch it, but I'm assuming that it was probably less scary in the new one, because there's like you can just sort of do a boring c G I like, I'm a mouse, but like with the practical effects, it is so gnarly. It is brew a truly. Yeah. Okay, So the meeting is about to disperse, but then one

of the witches smells Luke. They find him. They chase him around for a bit and eventually catch him and Miss Ernst gives him five hundred doses of formula six, which transforms Luke into a mouse immediately, and the witches trying to step on him and kill him, but mouse Luke runs away. He finds mouse Bruno. They can both still talk, so they scurry through the d talk about Bruno. In this movie, they never hesitate to talk about Bruno. Yeah, that was the exact laugh I was hoping for. And

Grandma especially is trying to talk about Bruno. She's trying to tell his parents about b and they are not having it. The parents are sort of like, we don't talk about Bruno, not during whiskey and sherry time, and she's like, we needed to wow the parallels. Did you recognize Bruno's mom? No, she is played by Brenda bleth In a k a. Mrs Bennett from Pride and Prejudice two thousand five. Wow. I did not. Wow. I guess that she was really in her nineties hair bag because

I didn't notice. That's like, I have a thought on that character as well, too, but like, for now, all I'll say is she really knows how to give a surprised face. True. Alright, So the two mice boys scurry through the hotel back to Luke's grandma's room, and Luke is like, hey, Grandma, so I got turned into a mouse by some witches. And also, is it just me or did Grandma barely react to the information that her

so grandson is a mouse? Snow? I thought that too, And then I'm just like, she's been I guess, ostensibly hunting witches for years? Does she like, no, this is on the table? Angelica Houston sounded like it was a new thing, so I feel like she should have been more surprised, But I'm like, maybe maybe this is in

their playbook. I don't know, I don't or maybe also the thing that and I don't think that this story has any interest in exploring this side of it, which is like fine, but I was just like, also, you know, in a realistic world, which is obviously isn't these two would be like overcome with grief because her daughter just died and his parents just got Bruce wayned. And so I'm just like, maybe she's just like still emotionally, she's

like sure, sure what next? My grandson's amuse great. She could be just numb, she could just be in shock, could be a lot of stuff we don't know. But mouse Luke has a plan. He wants to put formula eighty six into the witches soup at their dinner that night and turn all of the witches into mice. So Grandma helps him get into the Grand High Witches room, though her cat makes it a little tricky. I liked that part. Me and Flee were cheering. We're cheering for the cat, and it's a cat that looks a bit

like Flee. Oh well, because yeah, I mean please please the classic uh which is cat? True? Yeah? Um, Okay, so then Luke manages to get the formula and scurries back to Grandma's room. So she takes Mouse Luke and mouse Bruno to Bruno's parents and tries to explain the situation. They don't believe her. Bruno's mom is like, and you know, screams at the site of mice because you know, women

be hysterical. Well, it's blonde women and women with children generally, with the exception of the maid who is brunette and we don't know if she has kids. Um, but generally, blonde women and mothers are afraid of mice. Women with dark hair or non white women are witches. They want more mice, more mice, more mice. That's the rule. So then mouse Luke goes into the hotel kitchen and puts formula six into the cress soup. No idea what crest soup is, but that's the soup that will be served

to the witches. And then he runs up the pants of the chef ak the butler from Downton Abbey. So that was a fun little yeah, I never I never did Doubton Nabby and it's it's been you know, I've heard it's great. Is that a hot take in two thousand twenty two. I'm hearing good things about this doubton Nabby,

I mean I generally like it. Yeah, um okay. So then the soup is served, the witches eat it, and then chaos and horror ensues as the witches turn into mice, and then also the Grand High witch turning into a mouse is the other scariest thing I've ever seen. Oh my gosh, I like, how right before that happens? Um, Angelica Houston, I mean she is, uh, there are a

few moments. One of the moments that I really, I genuinely was like, wow, that was cool was when the first witch, who is like in the kitchen realizes what is happening, is the first to try to the soup, is the first to turn into a mouse. She screws out a mouse form to try to warn everybody. Ajelica used to just steps on her and she clothes into goo.

What are the rules? Um? But that was that was awesome because I guess Angelica Houston assumed that was a child mouse and so she was like, well, let me just kill this. But it was just like wow, wow, she really uh, what's what's my shittiest clickbait um. The lack of empathy that Angelica Houston's character demonst it's in the Witches is shocking, right it it writes itself. Okay, so the hotel staff are trying to squash and kill

the mice. Rowan Atkinson chops and kills mouse, Angelica Houston with a clever It's chaos, but things kind of settle down and mouse Luke and Grandma say goodbye to Bruno and his parents, and then they leave the hotel and go back home, and Luke is like, hey, being a mouse isn't so bad, and Grandma is like, yep, and that friend is really sad. Yeah, it's good to know. Like, also, I wanted to mention why does Mr Bean get the kill? Like? Why does Mr Mean this has been Grandma? I have

a theory as to why. I think it's because she has to be the good one and so we can't see her actually killing her harming anyone that directly. I wonder what happens in the book. I act, we didn't check who kills her in the book because it just feels like logically Grandma has been hunting this specific which

for decades. This woman took her finger off, like why, but she just puts a little dish over her and it's like turns around and then Mr Bean get I was like, Mr Bean's got no you know, he's got no stake in the game, Like hey, but he whatever. The whole premises is flawed from the jump. But I'm like, if I'm watching this movie, let Grandma kill Angelica Houston, what are we doing? Yeah for sure? Um okay. So then they're like coming to terms with Luke being a

mouse forever. But wait a minute. There was one which Ms Ernst Secretary I think, who was not turned into a mouse, and she has been following Luke and Grandma and it seems like she might be up to no good. But it turns out that she's like a good witch or she doesn't want to participate in child hunting, and she with magic turns Luke back into a human and that's how the movie ends, which is a big departure from how the book ends, which is that he stays

a mouse, knowing that he will die soon. It feels like a major departure because of how abrupt and out of step with the rest of the story it feels, because it's like that maybe I was like, I mean, I've I've watched the movie twice. I was paying attention.

I was like, but that, which is sudden, like I'm nice now and like and then she's like Glinda the good which and then he has to like it's so shoehorned into the last ninety seconds of the movie that Luke literally has to yell out the window Bruno next like, don't forget about Bruno, don't forget about Bruno, and like I'm glad for the children. I'm glad that that change was made. But just watching it in with like movie logic, you're like, oh yeah, this, uh, this doesn't match up

with anything else that happens. It makes sense that they changed it. Okay, let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss and we are back where Okay, where to begin? I would like to start, if it's okay with how and this, I mean this, it's all sort of like part of the same conversation of how roll Dolls. Personal prejudices are very much on display in this.

The three main areas that stood out to me that are also like, I mean, so, we'll probably be repeating some stuff that we've mentioned in the Matilda episode previously, but I think it really does bear repeating. So a quick trigger warning for particularly anti Simon to them and um, fat phobia. But I think that the three areas that we're really jumping out to me was something that we've discussed in Doll adaptations before, which is fat phobia, he

but also misogyny and anti semitism. I think we're just like just running rampant. The story can't happen without that. So I just wanted to start by going over rolled all again. So if you've heard this information before, you

already know. If you haven't heard this information before, you know, sorry if this is at least you're finding out from your para social friends, but just but you know, like Rold All was unlike I think that there's a lot of creators that people will go to the map for where they're like, well, we don't know for sure if they were, but like rolled all of Rold Doll's prejudices

he was very vocal about. He literally said, I am an anti semi like, there is no room for any argument, um, even if you wanted to fucking straw man this issue. He was very very anti Semitic um. He was known to be horrible to his first wife in particular, but also a lot of women in his life. He was known to be extremely volatile and mean. He also said to his wife, his wife, his wife on their first date. Let me let me pull up the quote, I'd rather be dead than fat unquote. He's just like a piece

of ship person like demonstrably so. And if you have attachments to his works, I would say, like most people do who are at least in our age range, and but like it's very relevant information because they're going to continue to adapt his work. Netflix paid a billion dollars to license his entire catalog in the last couple of years. But anyways, I just wanted to start by saying, like, we're going to be taking a look at this, and

also it is very inherent to the author. The way that women and the way that anti Semitic tropes are presented in this work and in this movie are definitely not a mistake intentional to the point where this book was when it came out in eighty three. I mean, normally, in most cases I'm very skeptical of like a band book because that usually they're usually bad for the wrong

reasons right right, and it's like a puritanical thing. But there was a lot of controversy about the Witches when it was released in the book because people were like, this is really misogynist, Like the first page it's all about how I mean, I think that he's also like going on this weird tirade about childless women, and like just all of his shitty politics are so um on display here. I don't want to really read any of his specific comments about women. Um were about Jewish people.

You can seek those out. They are out there. He has also said a number of racist things. There's uh I this was my I don't think I found this in my Matilda research. But apparently like he was like let go by his editors at one point, like one

of them. And this is an incredibly lucrative author obviously, um, but it was literally like he was too a extremely mean and bad to work with and be editors at, especially at this point in his career when he was older, Like he would refuse to write out racist and misogynist stuff, and his editors were like pleading with him and he would say no, So they were like, well, we can't work with you anymore. If you are like I I refused to publish the children's book without misogyny, like it's

just absolutely wild and gross and um so so. But as it pertains to the witches specifically, I do want to share what he said to his editor because it was flagged by the editorial team of like, this seems like maybe you're working through some stuff, buddy, seems more

like a scary diary entry. But his editor, um whose last name is Rocksburg, I don't have his first name here, said that, you know, he pushed back and he's like, next draft, let's uh, let's take it easy on those damn witches a little bit when it comes to the misogynist tropes, or like let's mix it up. Uh and roll Dall replied, quote, I don't agree with you about women coming in for a lot of this, for a

lot of the stick all the way through. The nicest person in the whole thing is a woman, the grandmother. So I have not changed anything. And so he like really, you know, doubled down on every I mean, he's he had issues with the n double a c P who came out against some stuff. He wrote, Um, I think as it pertains to the BFG and early draft of the VFG that he did have to fix and was forced to fix by the editor. But like, it's just like on almost every marginalized person you could imagine, he

has said something deeply cruel. And this is like one of the most famous children's authors of all time. Also, his granddaughter became a very famous plus size model, So fuck you, rold Doll. But anyway, so so that's all I mean. Did you have anything else you wanted to jump in to add to that? I just like, I don't want to share specific comments but no, but I will share a very very quick excerpt that I pulled from the book because I went back and skimmed through

parts of it. Um, this is from the book, and I believe the context here is that it's the grandmother talking to I don't well, actually no, I'm not sure if it's this is what the grandmother is saying to Luke, or if this is just sort of like omniscient narration. Not entirely sure. But what it says is quote A which is always a woman. I do not wish to

speak badly about women. Most women are lovely, but the fact remains that all which is our women there was no such thing as a male, which, on the other hand, a ghoul is always a male, so indeed is a bar guesst. I don't know what the funk that is. Both are dangerous, but neither of them is half as dangerous as a real witch, right unquote. So I get why you could read that and be like, that's pretty cool, Like women are the most fearsome and terrifying of everybody.

That's fun. I don't know, I was, I was trying to read through, like because this this is a been a divisive work. I'm talking more about the book than the movie when I say this, but like it was a very divisive book, and there are a lot of people who like read claim it on the basis of that um where they're like, well, you know, he's created a world where like this group of women are like

the most fearsome, powerful people in the entire world. Yeah, like they're all powerful, and um, what we'll say about those reclaimings as they conveniently don't mention any of the anti Semitism, but that passage is cool, Like that's that

I wish that. I don't know, like they're they're but it's also like demonstrating like, yeah, I'm saying that I think that most women are lovely, but I actually secretly find women scary and think that a lot of them are evil witches, right, Like, I mean, you can take it in a few different ways, but it's just so wild, like yeah, there's no there's no um defending and also like there's I'm pretty sure that because Matilda was recently turned into a Broadway musical, I believe it's being um.

And then do you remember there was a big Emma Thompson was cast as Miss trunch Bull. There was a controversy about that because they didn't cast a fact actor in a fat part. But so like all that to say that there's like there's another rollout of Roll Doll's work, as we talked about this in the Matilda episode, but his family released an apology postmortem right after making a billion dollars that was also divisive. Um, the apology I think is like not a bad one. I think it

was the timing that people were a little more suspect about. Quote. The Doll family and the Roll Tolls Story Company deeply apologized for the lasting and understandable hurt caused by some of Roll Doll's statements. It goes on from there. It is good that his family and company can acknowledge it, but also I think it was, in my opinion, rightfully speculated that that was just so no one would yell at them for taking the one billion Netflix dollars, so

that these could be adapted again. And there's no quality. I mean, I don't know how much say the role Doll company will have if you're to take the new adaptation of the witches um that came out. It seems like a lot of the tropes were not improved on at all, and so it's no guarantee that they'll do better, right, because again, the whole story is rooted in one big anti Semitic stereotype. So we'll talk about that, should be,

let's get into that. Yes, let's all right. So the Grand High Witch when Angelica Houston takes her Angelica Houston face off, face off, and then we have the Grand High Witch as she actually is. The character design here very closely resembles anti Semitic caricatures that have been illustrated of Jewish people throughout history. No ambiguity about it, right, you know, various features the large hook knows being perhaps the most obvious one those anti Semitic caricatures that have

existed throughout history. Visually speaking, feels like it was just like mapped onto the character design of the Grand High Witch um and and also like they I've read some analysis that was like they go out of their way to like give the witches like reptilian features, and just like it just seems like they do the absolute most you could possibly do. Yeah, it's upset. And then there is the again, the premise that the movie is based on,

which is that these witches want to hunt children. And if you consider the fact that the main character of this movie, Luke, the you know, the little boy Luke, he is a you know, blonde haired wied kid, and these witches are hell bent on like him Norwegian. Like, yeah, So I'm going to read a quote from a piece by Shelley J. From entitled looking back on the anti Semitism in Rhode Dolls the Witches quote attributing Jewish features

to quote unquote bad witches goes back centuries. In an article about the origins of archetypal witches, Ellie Buford writes, the stereotype of the Jewish nose is often used in anti Semitic media, including Nazi propaganda such as The Eternal Jew. While in early folklore it was likely not initially tied to anti Semitism, the feature is used in modern times

to code characters as Jewish. Shelly J goes on to say the child snatching and blood libel tropes of the witches also have their roots in folklore, going all the way back to Chaucer. Buford notes blood libel was a charge frequently leveled at Jewish people during the Middle Ages. People believed that any time a gentile parentheses non Jewish child went missing, that Jewish people had kidnapped and killed the child, either for ritual purposes or to use for food. Unquote.

And what does the Jewish coded grand high witch do in this movie? And what does she want all the other witches to do? Kidnap and kill aryan looking children.

They're also portrayed as having unlimited money and resources. Right, That's that's what I meant when I said, like it is, you know cool in theory that roll dolls presenting these women is all powerful, but through the lens of anti Semitism, he is and had and literally like textually said a bunch of really stereotypical comments about Jewish people and money.

And that is also a part of the Witches right, because the Grand high Witch has a trunk full of cash and she is like throwing money at the other witches and saying, here, take this and buy buy up. All the candy stores in England offer people three to four times what the shops are actually worth, just so that you have this way to lure children in, to

capture them and to kill them. Yeah, I saw, and I genuinely I mean, just a reminder for our listeners, Caitlin and myself, we're not Jewish, so our perspective is limited, and so there's stuff we're missing. We always want to know it because, in fact, in a recent episode we missed originally that there was an anti Semitic trope and animation tropes being used in Mother Gothel from Tangled. So we want to get shit right and we want to

continue learning. So if we're missing any thing, please, um we are always you know, do people still say bang my line. I've never said that. I was like, bang our line. I've never heard that at all. What do you mean it's been said. I think it's like a landline, like land bang my lind give me a call, drop, drop me a line. I've heard that. God, we're so old, okay, um. I think that that's an older phrase, though I think

that phrase predates us bang my log. It was when people were calling each other's landlord, landlord land line, let's move on, um okay. So another thing, because I was like coming through pieces, I was coming through right it. I just was like, what you know, I want to be brought up to speed here. It was also I thought I saw speculated in a few places that the accent that Angelic Houston takes on has been generally interpreted as German, but there are plenty of Jewish people in

Germany as well as Um. Some people would argue that it is more of a Yiddish accent. I don't have the know how to say one way or the other, and I wasn't able to find any production notes on what she was doing, but I wanted to mention that. And then for me, where the anti semitism and the misogyny um sort of started blending. Yes, yes, the intersection of misogyny and anti semitism, which unfortunately is a very

very real thing. But I think that where it like overlapped most severely for me was in that like opening sequence of the description, because I honestly didn't put this together as an anti Semitic trope until I read it. Let me get the name of the writer so I can cry out at them for this insight. Tom. So this is um from a piece that was written for Vox by Aja Romano Um when The Witches came out. Um. So this is a reflection on just the story at large.

UM not specific to this movie, but it definitely applies here. Quote. The anti Semitism Doll himself professed doesn't necessarily play a role in most of his other works, but it's directly relevant to The Witches, a story that's explicitly about detecting impostors in the midst of society. This is, to be blunt, the theme of most anti Semitic conspiracy throughout history, and has led, in its most extreme form to the idea that Jewish people quote hide in plain sight while essentially

controlling the world. Unquote. I did not put that together on my viewing, but I completely agree and like no knowing role Doll's feelings, I'm sure that that was his intense inspired whole narrative he is uh, he's a bad man,

he sucks hot take. And I think also within that same um, I think where I got thrown off in addition to just like I don't have a Jewish perspective, but I um, I mean like it is an inherently scary idea that something is hiding in plain sight and can hurt you, Like that's whatever you used in horror

all the time. But I thought it was like, you know, where it sort of crossed into more generalized misogyny for me was like the ways in which the witches had to hide the parts of them that were seen as grotesque, where it was all very like stuff we've talked about before, but like this might be the most extreme example that we've ever covered, where you know, like the trappings of

classic femininity with like the wigs. You know, your hair has to look a certain way, your makeup has to be on point, you have to like look good, you have to look glamorous, have to wear high heeled shoes, like all this ship and the implication that which is just like Galaxy brain, the implication that the story has is that women are doing this to fool you, so you don't notice that they're evil, and there is no whatever, there is no implication that this might be something that

is demanded of of many women, especially you know, the further back in time you go, right, So it's just like again, it's like, oh, it's uh. If you feel pressure to look a certain way, that's your fault. And also it removes the possibility that you might just enjoy presenting feminine, Like there's just no there's there's no nothing.

The rigid expectations are rigid. Um. Yeah. Something that really struck me was the I would say, casting and makeup choices for the witches, because there's a room full of like a hundred of them, give or take, and the people that were cast as witches, and the kind of just character design of the witches in general carries some troubling implications. So many of the women who are cast as witches are middle aged or older, which is actually I guess, a deviation from the book um the ground

which is described in the book as being okay. So I think that this is like specifically a movie issue, and I feel like what it's implying is what I jumped to, was implying like women without children are more likely to be evil, scary and like, and it's not that it's not just that I don't want children, it's that I hate children and I want them to die, which is just like whatever, It's just everything is so fucking absolutist and in this specific world, yes, um, there's

that there is similar to what you were just talking about. Certain markers of quote unquote femininity are like removed from the witches where you know, they make them bald, they have rashy skin. Certain choices are made to for like they're like makeup and costuming. In addition to that, there's

like some of them are given like prosthetic teeth. Basically they are made to seem unattractive by traditional Western beauty standards, which I think is like supported by like virtually every cinematography choice is the movie like is supporting that like, which is again it's just like I don't think that there's any way to adapt this story that isn't offensive.

And I think some of the cool like if I'm just thinking, like Jamie likes watching a movie brain, I think some of the cooler choices are in the cinematography because it's like, it's really fucking scary but like, you know, all of the like movie language choices totally support what you're supposed to not like about them, like unflattering camera angles,

unflattering lenses like fish eye lens kind of stuff. And then something I noticed, And we couldn't find any information about how intentional this was as far as casting goes, but several of the witches who are in the group at the meeting are men, So I in this is speculation here, but I would speculate that that's just another thing that contributes to this idea that if you're not adhering to a very you know, traditional binary standard of beauty,

then you're evil. If you are a woman with masculine features, that's scary, that bad. The implications here are you know, a whole number of you know, just very harmful queer phobic, transphobic implications. There's just a lot done in this movie that I feel like is was probably intentional. Again, we couldn't find anything to confirm this, but we really we really did look. I mean, but and and even fans

of this movie have speculated something very similar. Yeah, I mean, there's kind of like, as far as I know, like, there wasn't a lot available in terms of like finding out about the production process of this movie outside of kind of like the basics, because I have all these questions, but Nicholas Rogue is dead, so I don't know a lot of the answer. But yeah, I I genuine I didn't notice that on my viewings. But once you pointed out,

I I see what you're saying. I agree, right, And we had a similar discussion on the Matilda episode with the Mistrunchable versus Miss Honey characters, where if you who are a woman who presents as traditionally feminine and traditionally pretty and who has like mothering type of qualities, you're a good person. And if you're a woman with masculine features who would not perhaps be considered as attractive by Western standards of beauty, you are a mean, bad person

who hates children. Right, But it's well, I don't see I haven't I haven't revisited anything remotely Charlie and the Chocolate Factory in a very very long time. I know that, like Willy Wonka is like a villain, but he's a villain in a different way than the Witches are villains, and in a different way than Miss trunch Ball is

presented as a villain. I so take this with a grain of salt because I haven't revisited in a while, but just my memory of because I read those books and watched the movies, and he's definitely a villain, but

he's more like he's a trickster. Uh, you like him, but you are never you know, like Miss Trench Bull and Um, I think Angelica Houston's character are highly reclaimable characters, but they're meant to be despicable, like from the first moment you see them, where I feel like Willy Wonka, you're no matter what form he appears, and you're supposed to still kind of like him even though he's an asshole. So that's, you know, a very rold Doll thing. It's

so wild to me. I mean it's like, I love I love the character of Matilda and the fact that Jim Henson was so deeply involved in making these like horrific anti Semitic prosthetics, and yet this is the same person who gave us Miss Piggy. I just I'm like, uh, hello, it doesn't whatever. I'm not I can't lose sleep sleep over it at this time. Um, we're tired. Yeah, but I mean, and and just to sort of close the loop on the misogyny of it all. So this is

I mean, this is a very very white movie. I believe that there are some women of color in the background who appear. I think that there are a few witches who are not white, but you only witches first of all. Um, even outside of that, like I feel it feels just like, yeah, most of the women who are afraid of mice are maternal or blonde, all of the like, any woman who expresses anything is either maternal or blonde, and that's just how the world works in

Mr Bean's hotel. I don't like it. Um, I do want to Well, let's let's talk about Grandma really quick, because there's a lot of ways to come back Grandma. I do think that she and Angelica Houston are the most motivated characters in the movie. Sure, which is which? Which? Which is? Like? You know whatever? For me, all the fucking anti semitism, uh cancels out anything that I would like about it. But you know, I can I can

respect that the two most motivated characters are women. I sort of wish that if that's the case, then like lean into that rivalry more like I don't know why we're with I I know what, Ever, like you needed a child protagonist as the World Doll book, but I'm just like, I don't really give a shit about Luke. He's very just there, and I guess that the mouse practical effects are cool, but like I just didn't I

don't know. I was like, the grandma is the more interesting character, but also she's the one that's like sharing this misogynist uh theory she's been forming for her entire life at the beginning, So you're like, well, that's I don't know. I didn't hate the grandma character. Like I thought it was cool that at every step she did believe her grandson when he and no one ever believes

children in books also very often in real life. I think that that is always a valuable thing to include in children's media of like just a kid, something weird, specific horrible happening to a kid and having them be believed by an adult they love. That's very important. That's nice. But she's a conspirace, like it's it's all very weird. But she basically says, like, be wary of any woman you come across a little boy, because there's a chance she might be a witch. So I have a fundamental

distrust of women right right and literally. And at first I was like you gol. Lucacy was like that can't be true. It was like Luke's living in the year. And then she's like, no, we gotta roll that clock backwards. Don't trust a woman in the entire world. Um, it's so bizarre. I do like there and and and the other thing. I'll hand too to Grandma. I guess in the book she's grandmama. They give they give people names in the movie, they didn't give them in the book.

I guess everyone it's like boy, grandmama, grand witch. Um, but she's named Helga. In this she has a name. And when the action of the movie, because this movie is like kind of like a how some funky pacing to like it takes longer than I thought it was going to take for him to become a mouse whatever. But once that is happening, you know, like she is very active in basically everything moving forward. They're working together.

She believes him. I think the only if the story has to go the way it has to go, the only thing I wish had gone differently was that she should have gotten to kill Angelica Houston after all of that.

So weird that they let Mr Bean do it, especially because it's been suggested, if not overtly stated, that her injury on her hand was caused by Angelica Houston, which and like they had a rivalry, they recognize each other, you know, So it would have been so much more cathartic if Grandma was able to land the killing blow. It's so bizarre to be that that that didn't happen, because, Yeah, I think that Angelica Houston kind of like confirms that when she goes to see like she first of all

triggers a diabetic attack. She's so evil in poor Grandma and like walks in, She's like, oh this bitch again, she's old. Now I know who this is blah blah blah, which also implies that the witches are immortal. I guess I don't know. Yeah, hard to say, but yeah, I think it. I think that we're supposed to believe that Angelica Houston something, whatever happened with the finger was her. She didn't even get to kill her. What's the point.

Why am I watching this movie? Um? I would The other thing with the Grandma character is that so she learns towards the beginning of the story that she has diabetes, and I feel, and maybe this is me misinterpreting or reading too far into this, but I feel like the movie implies that her diabetes is making her a bad caregiver, and it's like the fault of her diabetes that is why Luke got caught by the witches and turned into

a mouse, which obviously has very ablest implications if true. Um, because like there's a scene where she's like laid up in bed and Luke even says like, I'm not sure if it was the witches or if it was her diabetes, but she was like not able to look after him, and that's why he got caught by witches and turned into a mouse. I don't know. I that did not occur to me, but I think it is interesting. I don't know, yeah, I I honestly sort of just like any time I see a kid just like running around

and you're there, should be an adult there. I'm like, oh, this movie came out in that was probably just allowed. I don't know, but that but that is an interesting point. I didn't think about that. There are a lot I mean, there's like mostly female characters in this movie. Another one I would like to talk about really quick is the one that was changed and I think maybe added with specificity entirely for this movie, which is um Susan the Good which I didn't hear her ever be called Susan,

but apparently her name is Susan. I think that this is like for me, like whatever, I'm old, and this movie is for kids, so I'm not handing it to myself, but I feel like you're told immediately that like this, which isn't like the other which because she's wearing white all the time, and she's blonde, and she's none of the other witches where light colors or have these aryan

complexions which enrolled dolls. Ship is always intentional, so she's the only that I could spot anyways, the only blonde which and she the few times you see her, uh Eva, Angelica Houston's bossing her around, being an asshole to her, and then at the end, she's fed up and she she leaves the dinner. So she's the only witch that doesn't eat the soup and turn into a mouse. And then she goes like, can you help me trace what

goes on there? Because she goes we see like there's like, I don't know if this is I haven't seen Nicholas Rogues, Like I haven't seen others of his movies. I'm like,

I don't know if this is his style. But there's like occasionally in this movie, just like really quick shots that are like supposed to be a whole scene and then and then you're like, wait what they cut up to Susan the good Witch at some point in the middle of like the peak of the movie, and it's just like her in her hotel room by herself, drinking

a cup of tea by herself. She doesn't even speak, but you hear her thoughts for a second, which doesn't happen anywhere else in the movie, and it just goes like, well, I didn't want to hang out with them anyways, or like whatever it was. I was like, what was that? That was self bizarre? And then like that's the only

it's that. And then when Grandma and Luke Mouse are leaving Mr Bean, sorry, Luky Mouse, Lukie Mouse are leaving Mr Bean's hotel, she's like looking at them, and then that's the only information you get before you find out, oh, actually she's so good and you're like what I could not. I think it's implied that the grand high Witch who is her boss, mistreats this quote unquote good witch, and so she just was fed up with being mistreated, so she decides to like rebel against this evil witchery and

use her magic for good? Is the load chick that I could kind of track? Yeah, I mean, I'm not opposed to the change made to the ending. These poor children have suffered enough. I don't mind there being a random happy ending, but it is a very gendered happy ending that that um, even though it doesn't align with the story logic, it aligns with the view of women that we've seen this whole time, which is that, um,

blonde women are nice. Yeah, so that I just wanted to just even just to unpack, like they really half asked, letting us know why she was good and who else do we have? We have the made There's not really much to say there, I think as far as uh oh, this is a fun transition. Um Bruno's mom a k as mom. I think she's just like she's characterized as very shrill, shrill and hysterical. Yes, and that's kind of unchallenged both to be fair, like a lot of world

roll Doll parents. They're just kind of incompetent assholes, um, the both of them. But the way that they're incompetent assholes is very gendered for sure. Yes, but they are bad parents. Speaking of Bruno, should we talk about Bruno? There we go, we have we simply have to talk about Bruno. No, no, actually, let's take another quick break and then we will talk about Bruno. Okay, we're back and we're talking about Bruno. So Bruno. I didn't realize.

I was sort of wondering. I'm like, is this the one Rold Doll movie where there's not whole sequence or and or character dedicated to fat phobia? It is not. The character is still there. Um. Yeah, this is a very common theme in roll Doll's work. We talked about this extensively on the Matilda episode. There's a similar character in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. If I'm remembering this correct. Yeah, So he's a kid who is fat and who is

obsessed with food, which leads to his demise. And also they much like they do with Bruno in the case of Augustus group, not only is the child punished and there's all of these troops that we we'll talk about. But roll Doll also specifically blames the parents in every case because it Bruno's parents are also, you know, covertly blamed for their child not being rail Finn, which is for some reason roll Doll is like so in love with that idea of restriction and control. Um, but there

was I was reading. There's a really good Slate piece about Rolled Dall and the way food is presented in his entire It's by Anna Lisa Quinn and it came out in UM and she she points out a lot of different stuff, but she even, like I I appreciate she mentions the inverse as well, because Augustus Group much whatever.

I'm sure we'll cover Willy Wonka at some point, but all the kids in that movie represent what Roald Dahl perceives to be a societal evil, usually related to consumption, and uh puts that blame on children that he kills. Cool except for Charlie, who is famously boring. UM. But the way so Augustus Group, you know, meets his demise,

there's extreme body horror with him. He basically meets himself to debt like it's just it's it's really the but um, the inverse is also true where he talks about people and children in this is Charlie who like restrict themselves from eating as a very virtuous thing to do. So, like when Charlie first gets a candy bar, like Roldal spends a whole page describing how slowly he eats it

and how like much control he exerts over himself. And that is like, not the reason but one of the reasons that he is perceived as a more virtuous character, which is just like, you fucking weirdos. Give a hungry child, you're like, and that's practiced. Like, what the funk are you talking about? Um? Anyways, I'll reference that piece a

little more, but let's talk about Bruno. Yes, so Bruno is a little chubby, and this is something that he is punished for by the story throughout the entire movie, and the movie leans into a number of fat phobic stereotypes. For example, we meet him and he's scarfing down food. He is lowered in by the witches with the promise of several candy bars. He loves food so much that he doesn't notice that he got turned into a mouse

because he's too distracted by food. Yeah, um, when there's not a single line with him that passes without him noticing the nearest food he is not, He's like, I mean, I guess like I wanted Luke to be. I wanted all the kids to be more upset than they were mice. Why are all the kids so fine with bi Literally the end, Luke's like, oh, yeah, I'm probably I'm gonna die any day now, but it's all good, and You're

just like, what the fuck. They're both like, oh, we don't have to go to school or do homework anymore. Being a mouse is awesome. It's like, and you're never gonna have sex, like what they well, it's something that I was like, that's what I mean. It maybe that they're nine, that's not on their minds, but just like saying that sucks. But anyways, but but yeah, I mean, brute. The way that Bruno is unbothered about it is by only talking about food, which is also the only thing

that he talked about when he was a human child. Yes, there's also when mouse Bruno and mouse Luke are running away from the witches, Bruno complains about having to run. He says it gives him indigestion. He doesn't like it. He's um. He says something like, no more sports because they're running away to safety. Um. And then and then the last time we see his character on screen is Luke's grandma telling Bruno that he needs to go on

a diet and then I know. And then Bruno saying to his mom, Oh, mom, you always wanted me to lose weight. Well, now I'm a mouse, and she as if to say, I lost a bunch of weight because I'm a rodent now. Um, and she's like, I'm hysterical, So I can't respond to that at this time. But um, and I think that, like when I mean, everyone's transformation

into a mouse is horrific. But I felt I felt like the way that Bruno was transformed was also pointed in the way that it was designed because his like belly is exposed, whereas when Luke is transformed into a mouse, you don't even really see it. You're just kind of like the camera is is untransformed and he's naked, questioned naked, and you're like, did what did I just see? I was like, I'm not going to rewind that, but I'm I'm like, I like that one I was just like,

I'm not touching that one. I don't want the fuck. I hope I was wrong, but yeah, I'm like, well, I'm not sure what I saw, but he's definitely naked, and we maybe saw too much. UM. Basically the point is this story, and it seems like most, if not all, of Rhodol's work are making very harsh judgments against fat and us and saying that fat people and fat kids especially are ravenous. They're greedy, they're lazy, it's their fault that they're fat, and being fat is a bad thing.

And that's a common theme throughout his work, and it's very much on display here in this story, and it's a very common theme across everything. But like across children's literature. UM. I did a little bit of research to this end, because with Roald dall Um, the examples that came to mind were, um, I forget the name of the character in Matilda, but the cake scene in Matilda, Augustus Gloop,

and now Bruno, who I recently learned exists. UM. But um, fat phobia is so rampant in children's literature, especially like and it's something that unfortunately, like we still need to be very mindful of because all this ship is getting readapted because you're not allowed to write a new story any so whatever, I'm being a drama queen, but you know this is being readapted. So I found piece by Rebecca Rabinowitz. She wrote something called Who's that Fat Kid?

Fat Politics and Children's Literature for the Children's Book Council Diversity Blog UM, and she kind of um unpacks a lot of tropes that are leveraged against fat or just not finned children in general. In books, they're often characterized as of lower intelligence. They're characterized as hyper fixated on food and defined by hunger and or fatness, and they're very often found to be either bullies or the victims

of bullying. And I honestly as I didn't I I don't know if the bully trope ever really like clocked for me. But then when she unpacked it, I was like, oh, that actually makes sense. She's uh. Basically every bully in the Harry Potter books is fat. There's Dudley Crab and Goyle. Um are all kids that are not rayl fin like Harry Potter and our Luke um. And then there's also a lot of fat characters that are bullied. It's just whatever.

It's just like defining someone by their experience. Um. It's been found that anti fat attitudes begin as early as age three, and another study found that children are less likely to want to be friends with fat characters, which is not the fault of the children, it's the fault of how fat characters are presented to them, and and also that they're very rarely main characters. Um, there's always they're either a best friend or a bully or uh, you know, side character that a thin hero needs to

rescue from bullying. So I just wanted to shout out that, Um, Rebecca Rabinowitz piece, it was very helpful. Also just rolled all Um loves to talk about, like James and the Giant Peach. Also, like there's just there's just so much is his obsession with people's body sizes and food and the restriction thereof I'll say it, I'm glad he's dead. Uh, well, he would rather be dead than fat, and so he got his wish. Okay, bye, yeah, good riddance. So yeah yeah.

The last thing I want to just touch on a bit more is the just witches and the representation of them in media. We've talked about the portrayal of which is in other episodes such as The Love Witch, and of course I think that that's probably where we did at the best, The VIC and The Love which yeah, iconic episodes. Sorry, I was just thinking of other movies we've covered that had witches, but I don't think that we got as in depth hocus Pocus the Craft, which

is of Eastwick the Craft. We've covered a lot of witch movies. There's well, because all women are witches, um, and I mean, and that's a fact. I love the right kind of witch media, you know, is it can be some of the greatest ship in the world. But but that is not often how which is are presented in media. So we've talked about the various tropes that

surround which characters and stories about which is. Um. We've unpacked a little bit the historical context of people, usually women, who have been perceived as being witches and the literal witch hunts that have happened throughout history. I've referenced this

book before. I'll recommend it again, the book which is Sluts Feminists by Kristen J. Sole, which dives into that historical context and, among among other things, but basically, again, people and especially women throughout history who have just not fit the mold of very rigid gender roles and expectations, and that ranges from anything to like interest or profession,

their sexuality. They're just physical presentation, all manner of things, and just a fundamental misunderstanding of women in their bodies has led to the perception that a bunch of women

must be witches. This movie leans into a lot of those tropes because it, you know, it demonizes women who don't want children, It demonizes older women, it demonizes The movie doesn't come out and say this, really, but if it seems like all these women are also unmarried, I think that kind of comes with a territory of like, I guess that I I can't prove that they are

unmarried and childless, but I would. I would put money on that that's what we're supposed to believe, because any woman we know that has a child or married, we see them with their husband or their kid. I think that there's also just like a thing with which is that. I'm sure we've talked about this at some point, but not only is it, you know, a way to rationalize not adhering to the rigid expectations of women across cultures.

And that's like another thing where it's like we are so focused on um, you know, characters who are white, who are which is when? Which culture is with with? I think very few exceptions a universal thing. Misogyny really is everywhere in most places and has been forever. But I think it it also is like in uh meant to inherently discourage or to imply that, um, women talking

to each other means something bad. It is like a force of evil for women to talk to each other because whatever, You don't want them to start getting ideas uh and talk to each other about how scary the men around them might be. Well, that's I literally was thinking about because I'm always thinking about hot dogs. But there's a thing that I, um, there's a story that I talk about in the Hot Dog Book, which you

can pre order now. Yeah, do it. So. One of the anecdotes that really stuck out to me that I know I've told you before, UM is the creator of Auntie AND's Pretzels, who are famous for their pretzel dogs, was from an Amish community, UM, where women are you know, not encouraged to talk to each other, especially about something traumatic, and there's a lot of shame, as there are in across most religions. I'm not trying to target the Amish

community specifically. Sure she you know, she she was being abused by a priest in the community, and it wasn't until she spoke to the community of women that she found out everyone was being abused by the priest and the priest was weaponizing the inherent shame that came with religion and also communing among women that you know protected him. Well, if women commune, they become a coven and are which is right. I mean, it's just sucking, but it's like,

it's true. It's just it's ridiculous. But yeah, yeah, all this to say that women have been perceived as witches throughout history and punished and killed for it time and time again because they defy gender roles and expectations, and then harmful tropes in media and and you know, entertainment and literature, cinema, etcetera have arisen a rose. I don't don't remember it sounds good how to speak, but they've emerged over the years without like challenging all the sexism

inherent in perceiving women as witches. And they're just like, yeah, no, witches are evil and a lot of women are witches, and therefore a lot of women are evil and this movie, this story just presents that as a simple fact. So yes, and I think that it is just like a I don't know, I I understand why. And also it's like I hate I need to stop thinking of like what are people going to be mad at us about now? Um, But just for the sake of saying it, we understand

that this is a very campy movie. There are a lot of elements of this movie that are really really reclaimable, Like sure, but it's our job to get the text. And this is, you know, based on really anti semitic children's book. So um, you know, I I understand why people like this movie. I understand why it's campy, but we just don't have any attachment to it. I fear right,

that's it's true. Um. Another like trope that gets leaned into is like the woman or the witch as a sed actress to like kind of lure someone in This happened in the Vivich where sometimes the Viviach presents, as you know, of a traditionally beautiful seductress who's like walking

around naked in the woods to lure people in. But then when you see her in her quote unquote true form, that's leaning into another trope, which is an older woman who does not you know, have a victorious secret model body. Um is evil and scary. Uh So the director Nicholas Rogue deliberately costumed Angelica Houston too, like have you know she's wearing like a sleek black dress which like shows Cleavagh's mortisia hang out. Yeah, right, and um, that was

a very deliberate choice. He wanted the grand high witch when she's like Angelica Houston, uh and not a horrible anti Semitic stereotype to have sex appeal. And then and then you see like is it Bruno's dad who's hitting on Angelica Houston in various scenes? Yes, and then you get a dirty look from Bruno's mom. Um, Yeah, I mean that's at least if I'm going to reclaim one of those elements, I guess that that's one of the

more reclaimable things. To me is like you know, I feel like whatever, that's a two pronged thing for me, where it's like sometimes it's like yeah, especially because this is written, scripted, designed and shaped entirely by men. I feel like there is this assumption that it is scary. A scary thing of woman can do is like manipulate you with her body and sexuality. But also I like when, uh, when that does happen because all of the men too, If nothing else, all of the men in this movie

are pretty incompetent and and horny. Yeah, horny and incompetent and like horrible basically useless. Like it's the kids, and um, the women are fully the only like you know, active characters. Like there's things that like Mr Bean tries to do, but he's not really successful in any of it. And the same goes for Bruno's dad, and those are kind of the only male characters. And so sure that's fun. Uh And what I I mean Angelica Houston, I just love her so much. I just yeah, but this movie

is not not good to do anything else. I don't think so me either, Yeah, I I this movie does pass the back toll test, not as much as I would have thought. There's a lot of Grandma and Luke, Grandmat and Luke, Bruno and Luke, and then Angelica Houston will talk to other witches but we don't know who most of what most of their names are true. I would say that the only witches that are remotely characterized are her Eva and kind of Susan and a few

of their exchanges would pass. But on in such an overwhelmingly you know, women driven movie, Um, I kind of thought it would happen more. It does happen though. Yeah. True, But how about that nipple scale of ours? Wow, that's what really counts. That's a really major metric here, boy, I mean, so zero to five nipples. Based on examining the movie through an interest actional feminist lens, yeah, I would.

I would say between the blatant anti semitism, sexism, and fat phobia, you know, not not going to get very high marks. If you don't have any attachment to this movie, I wouldn't watch it. I don't know. There's so many better movies that have the themes that this movie is mishandling. Like I love body horror, I just don't like what it's anti semitic, like, you know, like there's there's just for anything that the people hold onto for nostalgic reasons

to this movie. There is a movie that does the same thing better so if you haven't seen it, Honestly, I wouldn't bother skip it. Yeah, but I guess you know. I like the Little Mouse puppets. I mean the hands. Yeah, there's uh whatever though no funck the mice. I don't know. I just like this movie. This movie, I didn't like it. It's uh, it's doing a lot of bad things. Um, I'll give it any nippies. I'll give it one nipple for it's potentially reclaimable stuff. Mostly I just love Angelica Houston.

But maybe it doesn't even deserve nipple. I'll drop it down to a half nipple and I'll give it to Angelica Houston as Morticia Adams. Yeah, I'm gonna do it half as well. I just, uh, it like, is not that this super matters, but just personally griping it annoys me when there's like a movie that I feel like I should like because I love body horror and I love casts of women doing evil shit, and I love Angelica Houston and so you know, on its face, but it's just like it just pissed me off to watch.

I didn't like it for all the reasons We've been talking about for two hours now. So I'm just gonna give it a half nipple for camp and I'm gonna give it to the mom who gets you know, nuked in the first two seconds of the movie. Um, I didn't know what her name was, but she was I did appreciate that she was like Grandma stopped telling Luke all your misogynist conspiracy theories, and Grandma was like, yeah, yeah, so I'll give it. I'll give it to her, but

um yeah, this this bummed me out. This bummed me out. So uh, that's the Witches. Oh the thing. I was gonna say, well, we'll talk about it in on a Matrion episode. But the reason that we cannot because I honestly I would have watched movie. So here's a little PostScript. I would have watched thee to prepare for this episode. But you literally, at least in the US, I'm pretty sure this is true across the board. You literally cannot. It is media that came out less than two years

ago that is no longer available anymore. You can't because there is like this horrible thing going on right now that is like I researched it very intensely because the production of a show I'm working on is like really tied up in all of this ship. But Warner Brothers and HBO, they're like legally making existing you know, art, whether it's good or not. Because I hear that, but but you shouldn't be allowed to disappear. You know a movie that came out two years ago, it's just absolutely

and it's not being done because it was offensive. It was not being done because it wasn't good. Bad movies exist fucking everywhere. It's being done because it is like a corporate loophole that was just made possible by the Supreme Court a couple of years ago that allows huge companies like Warner Brothers and like HBO to make stuff disappear in order to not pay taxes, in order to

consolidate money and not pay taxes. So it's all a fucking like if you watch the movie and hated it, I wish I could have watched it and hated it too, because it's just like I think it's corporate evil, and I think it's really disrespectful to people who worked hard and made a whole fucking movie. Even if that movie sucks. You shouldn't be allowed to disappear something like that. Um, And it's been happening to a lot of people, so I'm just personally piste off about it. And literally, as

we were recording this cartoon network got shut down. So what Yeah, I'm a fucking animation writer. I just like, I hate this ship so much. Um, so the Witches, you know, the Witch is. Will it be missed very much? Probably not? But but you know, CEO shouldn't get to decide what art exists in the world and what doesn't. That's a fucking nasty precedent and I hate it. Uh And on that note, goodbye, Yes, uh, thanks for listening. Um. You can follow us on social media at spectel cast,

on Twitter and Instagram. Hey, because it's just us, I'm gonna plug my social media. You can follow me on those same platforms at Caitlin Durante and Hey, Jamie, do you have anything that you want to plug? Maybe like a book about hot dogs or anything. If you want to buy my book about hot dogs, it is available for pre sale now. It's called raw Dog, The Naked Truth about hot Dogs by Jamie Loftus comes to you, That's me. It comes out in stores on May nine,

but uh, pre sales are cheaper and really helpful. Um, I would recommend, and we'll link this in the description, I would recommend you buy it on bookshop dot org. It's a really cool website. It's where I got mine, and it connects you to your nearest local independent seller and you save money. Please don't buy the book on us on I'll be so sad. So there you go, and I really hope you watch it, and you can get our merch at t public dot com slash becktel cast.

You can follow you don't have to follow me online. I need to get off that fucking thing. Anyways, it's toxic. We're the first people who have ever said that. Um, but hey, you know what's not toxic is our Matreon matres a little toxic, it's a little chaotic, I would say. Um, you can subscribe to that at Patreon dot com slash becktel Cast, where you'll get access to to bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog of all the

Matreon bonuses we've done. And it is five dollars a month. Wow, what a deal, What a deal with a steal and I'm not even joking, it's a good deal. We're only releasing the hits so and and this month because it is the scary month. Um. We did Final Destination three and we're doing Malignant, a James Wong movie and a James Wan movie. You're going to love it for my books. Truly, I feel like we can really cut loose on the matrion.

It's exciting. Um. So that was the Witches. Thank you for staying for my corporate rage PostScript and we'll we'll see you next week. Bye bye bye