The Santa Clause 3: The Escape Clause

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really hope you'll support them. Check out the show. We love doing these shows and we really hope you'll join us and until then, enjoy today's episode on the Beck dol Cast. The questions asked if movies have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the bec Del Cast. I'm going to start with my favorite quote from the movie. Ready, Yes, I'm ready. Wow wow wow. Welcome to the bec Del Cast. My

name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Drante. So that was that was Alan Arkins. Yeah, his last lines in the movie are wow wow wow. You know what, it didn't make an impression on me, and I didn't really talk with me because he makes a terrible pun. And then and Margaret is like, let me get in on this little pun. And then Adam Marken Alan Arkin says wow wow wow. And that's the end of his arc. That's the end of his Arkin. He who talking about

wow wow wow. He goes from being like I'm in a garage to wow wow wow, I'm Santa's father in law. Incredible storytelling, really beautiful stuff. This is the Bechtel Cast, by the way, ever heard of it? Yes, this is our our our Santa Claus three episode. But first, this is our podcast where we discuss movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test merely as a jumping off point. Jamie, tell me about the Bechtel test. I forget well, um, I'll tell you. The Bechdel test is

sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. It's a media metric that was invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel that requires, for our purposes. Many different versions of this test. Our purposes require that two people of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. I'm realizing I don't really know if that happens in the Santa Claus three? Does it? I didn't pay attention for everyone who I

don't know. I listened to our podcast thirty seconds one time. They're like, is this the podcast? I was figuring it out. It isn't, and I honestly didn't even remember to pay attention this time. That does it? Great? I think that like the question you need to ask first is do all elves count as a marginalized gender? If if the answer is yes, then still no, it does not pass gets to talk to each other. There were so many. There was one time I wrote in my Okay, so

this is our Santa Claus three episode. We're going to introduce her to a second but Grace Thomas is back. This is our one of our most honored holiday traditions. Even though it's just the second time and there's only three movies, we're going to figure it out. Um. Truly one of our favorite episodes, one of our, like one

of our listeners favorite episodes. I did write down in my notes um that there were probably a lot of child actors who got their sag card on this movie, because there's a lot of elves that have one line and they go they just get in the line, a single file line in front of Tim Allen and they say, Hi, Santa, look at my toy. And then Tim Allen goes, wow,

what a great toy. And then they just go to the back of the elf line and the next kid comes up and they and then he actually, I think if you look in the blooper reel, he hands them a sag card. Tim Allen hands them one, and then yeah, this is the this is the Bechdel Cast. So yes, so our our our guest today. She's a very funny comedian. She has a podcast coming out in January called Competitive Literature, which everyone must check out. And you remember her from

our Santa Claus one episode. It's Grace Thomas. Hello, what's up. I would just like to say hello out of the fans, first of all, first and foremost, I'm really you know, without you, this episode wouldn't have happened because Jamie and Caitlin hated the last episode. They despised it. But the fans, the fans just kept calling out for another one and then and then it just had to happen. That is true.

I mean we famously did on stage and then Caitlin, you edited it out later, but at the end of the show, you and I said in unison we hate at this and people at the show remember, but it was they booed you the entire audience. Things really kicked up that night. I mean, if you were at the Denver show, I'm sure you can you know there there was a fight there court records. We were at court. We had to go on zoom because what with you know,

the whole situation. But we went to court on zoom and you know, I was I was happy with with with where we settled on that. Yeah, they did, but the court didn't resolve it until like April of this year, even though that it was recorded in December, just because apparently, apparently theater brawls are way down on the list of not a top priority. It's unfair, it's not right. But I did think it was very clever that you and your lawyer added that if you won in Zoom court

that you would come back for the Fan Claus three. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm totally broke from hiring a lawyer for this, and the judge. The judge did say I didn't need to hire one because it was, like I miss mean, but it was it was worth it. I think. I think we're all satisfied with where it's landed. I think so I'm so excited to talk about this movie because I remember, Grace, you said last year during Santa Claus one that Santa Claus three a movie I think I've

only seen one time. It feels like it takes place in a completely different universe than the first one. It's it's it's, it's it's I'm getting worked up. I am

getting worked up. It just it does not make sense as a continuation of the first two movies, not just canon wise, not just how it just blows past Cannon, not just how it warps the story and the characters, but just like totally the first the reason the first two movies are funny it is because it's got this kind of like serious, real world perspective, dealing with these like you know, real world emotions, you know, like dealing with divorce, dealing with getting back out there. I'm not

saying these are super serious movies. But then all of a sudden, there's like on Elf C I a you know, that's why they're so enjoyable, and then there's some everything changes. In Santa Claus three, there's there's none of that reality. It's all just it's like it's like a ranking bass special, but in the worst way. I love Ranking bass specials, but it's that in the world because it's it's just detached.

And when it's not, when it's this you know, live action, it's not only a live live action as opposed to claimation, it's also a continuation of a franchise that wasn't that at all, and it just has less it has it leans into the fantasy elements and has less fun with them. At the same time, and also like effectively kind of like ruins some of the good parts of the first movie,

which I forgot that it does. At the end, it goes back to the first movie and then adds in a bunch of like nonsense as Cannon that it's like, oh, actually in Martin short killed Fanta when he went hey, that was the only part of the movie that I liked. That when they go back like travel through time and like screw with the timeline, because I love that stuff. I love any like time travel, screwing with the timeline.

I don't know, I like that too, and I mean they do I guess fix it kind of in the end. But I will say before we get into the synopsis, before we even get into the rest of it, I'll get the the nipple score of this movie. I don't even think we can pretend that it's even gonna get half, you know, because this is by far the most misogynistic Santa Claus movie of the three, by far, and it's also maybe the most misogynistic Christmas movie I've ever seen.

Like it's like devastating, It's like so misogynistic that you almost had to look because I'm like, okay, the second we can't talk about the Santa Claus Too too much because we had to talk about it next year. But like, you know, the the whole Santa Claus Too is like and we're just gonna, we're gonna, we gotta we gotta get Carol to give that career up. We gotta get her out of that job of hers. And so you think that that would be the most misogynistic one, but

it's not. It's the one where she's in abor for the whole movie, and at least in the Santa Claus to like kind of oh, she's like, oh Christmas magic. You know. She's like like, well, you know, I don't know. If I was presented with marrying Santa Claus and I knew he was Santa and whatnot, maybe you know, I

just leave everything behind. Maybe I would. I think I would for me would, But I would also I would demand a role, you know, I would be like, you know, I would be an active first Lady of the North Pole. Mrs Claus has a role. It's just completely nonsensical, any sense. You mean, when she teaches children elves in in elf school who look identical to the adult elves, just because all the elves look like children yeah, is that what you mean that? Fus? Yeah, I think about that regularly

and it really sucks up. How do you get how do they get made? Do they just like they're on like a Twilight loop? They just go back to school every hundred years, they just keep going there. I was confused at that too, because maybe I missed something, which is possible because this movie feels long, but it's very short. Um. She seems to only teach them about her life, like her main lesson is like kind of like what happened to her the Christmachine. She is trying to teach them math.

She is at first she's like, there's a there's a reindeer math question, and then Abigail Breslin is like, stands up and she she's you know, she's feminist. I can on Abigail Breslin because she stands up and she's like, listen, Mrs Claus, I want to know why don't you teach

just what we want to learn? And you'd think it would be like an anything but like slay Man, you know, but what she wants to know and apparently the whole class wants to know is she pretty explicitly says like why did you leave your entire life to come up here and teach, which is a very that's just good journalist. That's good journalists like it. It does beg the question

and that that part. So she does start by teaching a math problem, but then she derails math class to tell her life story um, which is unusual for an elementary teacher to do. UM. But that specific moment, there's and this is a bad this is a note I took that I'm like, well, I don't like this note. It reminded me of the beginning of Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Oh, where they're like in the class and she's like, who is this and then she likes like, oh, well,

it's a whole thing. There's a way to read this in your film as an analog a Portrait of a Lady on Fire. I mean, one of the last scenes is you know, Santa looking at Jack Frost from across the room, and then Jack Frost looks back at Santa, and then the movie's over, you know, And if that isn't Mozart is playing yes and our Our Scott Calvin ak Santa Claus is pants not on fire. At one point in the movie, part on Fire of a Santa

Claus on the fire. I think that these French assholes ripped top the Santa Claus three, the Escape Claws so badly, and I think they need to be held accountable for the last place you'd expect to look for plagiarism. It's the perfect crime, It's the the crime there. I so I did. Yeah. At the beginning, I read down Abigail Breslin Portrait of an alphon fire, but it is portrait of a Santa Claus on fire. At the end, Yeah, I'll give I'll give it up to this to the

Santa Claus through the escape clause. It is a very gay movie, even though it's violently misogynistic. Can be both of those things, and it is two things can be true, there are I felt honestly, I have like, I have a fair amount of notes, but I have the thing I have more notes than I was prepared to have. Was in regards to um the Blooper reel, which I guess we'll get to. But the Bloper real really um

resonated with me. I feel like it because it is Tim Allen and Martin short yelling, screaming, screaming, screaming, and like ten different scenes and then you're like, wow, I guess they were screaming in Unison in a lot of different scenes, but when there's no special effects or music, it really is jarring to be like, wow, they're screaming.

And then one of the only other bloopers there's like a there's like a few random ones, but it's like Tim Allen screaming, Martin Schortz screaming, Tim Allen and Martin

Shortz screaming. And then one scene of the Easter Bunny sexually harassing and Margaret and her saying I'm so uncomfortable, and then children laugh and you're like, wait, there's children here, and then that's the end of the One of the worst parts of this movie is that everybody wants to fuck Carol's mom, oh my gosh, except for Carol's dad doesn't want anything because Carol's dad a k a. Alan Arkin wants to have sex with Aisha Tyler, which I was kind of which I was like, Okay, that's kind

of an iconic pairing, but also like, you can't that you can't. I'm split on that. I'm split on that and not about like I'm split on whether or not he wanted to suck it because it's like one like three,

Like he's like putting his head on her shoulder. So like, my there were a lot of weird sexual things in this movie, but that I didn't know if I was supposed to take it as that because especially because she's Mother Earth, you know, and is laying his and she pats him, you know, like I did, kind of it was okay. I was so when I saw that there's a shot at the end this this episode is just going to be chaotic and everyone just has to deal

with it. Like the the shot at the end where Alan Arkin is like really slowly laying his head on Ayisha Tyler's shoulder. Normally I would take issue with that and be like that's creep, But then in that I was like, well, it's Alan Arkin and i Ushoa Tyler. Like as a static image, I'm on board. In context, maybe not quite as much, but as a static image alan Arkins head gently rested on i Ushua Tyler's shoulder,

That's a fun image. I might even commission that to paint to paint or even as like I got a big one of those already. I'm not one about my bead, my fiance hates it, you found me to burn it, or that they're gonna eat me. Come around, around, I will say it. Should we do the synopsis? Were there? Yeah? Well, real quick, our history relationship with the movie Grace. You said you had only seen this one once before, right,

but you're a big fan of the first two. I had only seen it once before it was in theaters. Was my cousin who who passed away last year. So again, every time I've seen this movie for the first time with someone their debt, you know, it's just bam bam bam. Like, well, I've joked about it enough that I've kind of kind of a nerd to it, you know, but it certainly happened, Jesus,

I don't know. I'll tell you one thing. This is a really movie related but when your family has entirely cut you off because your trans pretty much and then you find out a cousin instead, it's like, well, this is pretty sad, but I have nothing to do, you know, no plane tickets to buy. It's very like it's a very chill way to find out a family member is dead because you simply have no responsibilities, don't You can't send flowers because you don't even know where anyone lives anymore.

It's a chill. I mean, it's bad for a lot of emotional reasons, but it's also like if you want to be able to be lazy when a family member dies, beat rands, did you, It's like it's your text reaction away from yes, yes, that the thumbs down I wanted to. So I had to remind myself for this episode who and Margaret was or she's alive, right, So I think the reason that we are like, oh, everyone is horny for and Margaret. I think that's a joke for parents.

I think it's a joke for boomers because and Margaret was like kind of like a young bombshell in like the sixties, So I think every parents are supposed to be like, oh, yeah, and Margaret, she used to play a bunch of you know, sexy roles, and so now she's she's she's a grandma, but she's still sexy. But

not to Alan Arkin. It's kind of like this is like a you know, like like a like a a story quilt or like you know, like just an old tone of genealogy or something, and of like just like a story of our culture and it's a way to the Santa Claus three is a way for boomers to pass down to a new generation about how fuckable I hand Marcrets. Back in the day, we wanted to fret, this is something you should know and carry and tell the future generations because it was. It took me a

second to be like, oh, they're free. I don't. You can kind of like tell when I can't even really describe what the choices, but when they're like framing someone like an older actor, very particularly where you're like, oh, I'm supposed to know who this is, I just don't. And that's how they present her because you're like, oh, Alan Arkins, that's exciting, and then like I think I'm supposed to be excited about I don't know who this is. I kept thinking it was Reba McIntyre, and then I

was like, now she's just got a good wig. Yeah, but it's and Margaret. You know, she she does what she can and then she's and then apparently she was sexually harassed by the Easter Bunny. So we got a cat. I think, well, okay, Jamie, what what is your relationship with this movie? I'm not even sure. I I think I've seen it once. I didn't see it in theaters. I think I've watched it on TV, like sort of,

I think that's my history. I know that, like it was familiar enough that I'm like, I've seen this movie. I know the Martin short Santa Clause, but the specifics of like the number and volume of of of plot lines, I did not remember. So I'm pretty sure I've seen it once on like TBS or something. Got it? What

about you? I've never seen this before. I did grow up with the first Santa Clause movie, but hadn't seen of the two sequels until just the other day when I started prepping for this episode, so I seemed too pretty fresh. But the main thing that I forgot about this movie that really pissed me off and dried me up was that there's no David Krumholtz. Yeah, it was shocked by that too. I totally forgot that. And that's just rooted in this film's refusal to evolve the cannon

and mythology of the North Pole. It entirely refuses to just just love it, love the world it's created in the last few films, and I hate that and that like hot chocolate girl isn't there either who has been presented in these earlier movies as this like mystical ancient figure, you know. And then it's just like, well our head Elf and are like Elf Sorceress just are on vocation shin, you know, because they aged out of the roles because in the Four Children Forever, but Spencer Breslyn gets to

come back. I felt bad because I was like feeling kind of aggressive towards Spencer Breslyn. Care but I was like, you're supposed to be the smartest Elf here and you just give Jack Frost all the info he needs, you fucking little little fool you. I mean, he looks like a dollar store beans, you know, from even Stevens. He does. I always forget the Spencer Breslen is not, in fact Beans, Yes,

he's not. He's not even being I mean, I'm sure this is no, this is not personal attack on Spencer, but I did have a very emotional reaction when his character, I mean, he just can't hold a candle, he cannot do what Bernard does, and it shows that's all I'll say. Yeah, I mean this this film really just destroys so much much of the mythology too. Because the Owls are presented as like, you know, like loving what they do, being

so invested in the North Pole. But then when Jack Frost takes over and just makes them be theme park employees, it's like, oh, they're slaves, Like oh, this is against their will, like you know, like they're just a part of this. They're like little homunculi, you know, that are being forced to to do this. And and that leaves a taste, a bad taste in your mouth that reverberates throughout the last two movies too. Yeah, there, it is also unpleasant. And that was also just like a very

bizarre choice to me. I always find it really it just feels disingenuous. Whenever in a Disney movie they make some like point about like oh look at all this, they consumerize it, and they opened a theme park. I'm like, I'm going to need this message from literally any other company because that's like it's just simply not going to hit for me. So I thought that that choice and at the why this movie is so fucking weird. I guess we I guess we should do the recap. Yes,

let's recap. Let's take a quick break first, and that will come back to the recap. Wow, the guy who directed this movie also directed Tooth Fairy. Sorry, Dwayne Johnson, what a weird corner to paint yourself into. He has some sort of curse on him, He's got a a clause, he's beholden to some sort of fucked up clause. And then I feel like we this somehow might have come

up last year. But it's worth mentioning that the writing duo that writes both Santa Claus Too and Three are the same writers of There's Something About Mary and You Can Really and also the Lizie McGuire movie, which actually, like it was an arrow to my heart. Yeah, confusing, Well, at very least there was a female writer on the Lizie McGuire movie as well, so maybe she or maybe that movie is terrible and I just don't remember, but um,

which is probably the case. But the yeah, Ed Dector and John J. Strauss wrote this movie, I mean, seemingly under duress. You have to think this movie went through like well, I mean, it's just you know, the Santa Claus Too is a sweet film. It's like not a perfect film, but it's sweet at least, you know, and this movie, I mean it must have gone through a dozen rewrites. It must, it seems really, it seems like it was like there's three drafts that all ended up

in the same in the same script. Yes, and a bunch of people must have thrown in jokes and ideas, because like Jack is such a mish mishmash of a charcter that just I don't know if this will surprise you too, but I have a deep, on abiding love for Jack Frost, and I just that's not where I saw that's going continue. I've just offended. And you know, I'm deeply hurt by how they portrayed Jack Frost in this movie. Well, who do you know Jack Frost to be? Because I don't have a ton of context for Jack.

I feel like I have like more of an aesthetic idea of him. I don't have a character idea of him. Well, I'm Finnish, and Jack Frost is a big Finnish mythological figure. I did. I did more research into it, and he's like has his own chapter in like this thing called like the or something that's not what it's called, but really big tome of ancient Finnish poems and stuff. And it makes sense because my Finnish grandfather used to reference him a lot, So I feel like it's like in

my blood kind of to love Jack Frost. I just love Jack Frost as like kind of a scamp, you know, but also like in his heart heroic and I hate I fucking just I don't understand Martin Short, and I don't think anybody under forty understands Martin Short. So that is the perfect hot take. I like, I like the idea of Martin Short. Yes, I don't like fully get it. When I'm gonna see a movie with him in it, I'm like, oh, I think I like Martin Short, and then I see it and I'm like, I fucking hated

Martin Short. In that You're like, it was like, yeah, it was. I don't know, Like I just don't understand. I feel like whatever it was that made Martin Short the funniest person on earth is a generational like if if you're born after a certain time, you're like, I'm not offended and not upset. I just don't understand what what everyone was so excited about. Yeah, he made a wish to a genie that granted it, but it was like he wanted to be famous. But the Genie was like, Okay,

you'll be famous and beloved. Not only people born in the nineteen fifties will find you. Funny. Parents love Martin and I like. I like Martin short. I just and I feel like he like brings a cool energy that like movies need sometimes and he can make a bad movie not as bad because he just brings like commitment and energy. But I don't fully get it. And also you you brought up the next We we have covered the Michael Keaton Jack Frost on our Patreon before I didn't.

I honestly does the Michael Keaton Jack Frost have anything to do with the mythology? Because I was because he was just in a band and then he and then he came back okay, just making um and then there's been a serial killer Jack Frost movie too. Yeah. I just don't think people have enough respect for the finish and I can think that's something that we can really confront. That's well, Grace, I think it's up to you to write a respectful Jack Frost film that positive Jack Frost representation.

There hasn't been enough of it in cinema. I agree. The only other Jack Frost representation I've seen is Michael Keaton getting killed on Christi's Eve on the way to do his cover band and not just that is definitely not the worst movie in the world. That's not gonna cut it. I will say he was the hero in Rise of the Guardians that works, Rise the Guy. Is that an owl? A movie about owls? No? No, no, no, no, no no no, that's The Guardians of Yeah, what's it like?

So Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Jack Frost, but they all don't have this quite like like Santa Claus isn't called Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny isn't quite called the Easter Bunny. But they have to like rise up and defeat this shadow demon um and and it was I think one of Jeffrey Katzenberg's last films that DreamWorks before he moved to Quimby. Oh RiPP Quimby rip quick. All right, I think it might be time for the recap now. I'm so sorry, Kate. No, that's that's what we're here for.

Like you said, this is this episode's chaos and that's just how I camp. But yeah, sorry, I'm still sucking to Michael Keaton, Jack Frost. That's whenever they bring together the holiday mascots and wanted to be like, isn't this empowering? I'm always like this is kind of like it just feels itchy to me. And it feels like when they try to put Cereal mascots together and you're like, I

don't I don't want this, I don't need this. They do this in um Al Frank Bomb's The Life and Adventure of Santa Claus, which was the final claymation adaptation that Ranking Bass made. Um and that comes off that's my favorite. I love that movie. And that comes off cool because they're like not They're not like the Easter Bunny and ship. It's like the like Lords of Spring, you know, and like the the like the Nature Elves and Mother Earth and YadA YadA YadA, and that's like

mythological stuff. Yeah, and then this it's like the Easter Bunny. And then Cupid played by Kevin Pollack. My partner walked in while I was, um, you know, taking diligent notes about Santa Claus three, and then he went Kevin and then walked away. I was like there, It's like, how dare you see Kevin poll and a full on diaper and they go oh Kevin and walk away. It was just not okay with me. And we're on the relationship position. Um he's in She's All That. I think, Oh my god, Wait,

we're recording this the day after. I'm so, I mean, we hated She's All That. But do you want to know some gossip. I'll put some gossip on the pot and then we'll recap the movie. So okay. So it's like Los Angeles local gossip. That's pretty draconian and evil. So our Mayor Eric Garcetti is a terrible man. He's

the worst. And yesterday, as of this recording, he had shut down a COVID testing site at Union Station for the reason that he had like or his office or whatever you know, office does that they had rented Union Station to a reboot of She's All That called She's All That starring Tiktoker's and that's why people couldn't get their COVID tests today. Isn't that the most evil ship you've ever heard in your life? For the worst reason?

Fucked up? I mean what TikToker is? Because like, if there's some of my faves Addison Ray, has that change your mind? Oh, She's no I'm not no, I, she

confuses me. I looked her up once and all of her stuff is just about it's like one of those YouTube families, you know, like it's but it's like just like a single young girl talking about like, oh, this is the boy I'm with now, and it's like, what, why can't this is what cinema used to be, you know, people people used to go to the movies for these worries, and now they're getting them from I'm just I always get the feeling. I'm like, I am just like I

shouldn't be here. I should get out of here. Either way, no one should shot down a COVID testing site for He's all That starring Addison Ray. Um, that's the most evil ship. Anyways, shout out Kevin, Kevin, Kevin Kevin. Okay, Caitlyn, we're ready to do the podcast. I guess, I guess. I guess we'll find out what's going on with Santa Claus three. So it's just like, do you just not want to talk about this? Just delaying so much? All right, I'll be I'll make this as quick as possible. We'll

see how it goes. Um Okay, So just a really quick fill in the gap between Santa Claus one and Santa Claus three. In Santa Claus To there's a new clause that says that Santa Claus has to get married by next Christmas, which is in like a month, or else he can't be Santa anymore. So he ends up falling in love with Carol, his son, Charlie's school principle,

and she becomes Mrs Claus. So that's what happens. But also I realized here's a little I was but her her maiden name is Carol Newman, which because her name is Carol because Christ and she needs a new man, meaning Scott Calvin a k. Santa Claus. There's a poetry to these films, the films, it's it's very literary, you know they're taking I was like, Oh, she needs a new man, and she will leave her job for a

new man. For all the listeners out there, I really really suggest watching these movies with a script in hand, because otherwise you're just not gonna take it in like you should. It's true. I felt really impacted. I was like, Oh Newman, it was all it was all there, All the hints were there. The maybe we talked about this

last year two. But that like the plot of the Santa Claus too, is the plot to a like is also the plot to the Princess Diaries to write like, isn't it the same thing where like Anne Hathaway has to get married by the end of the month or the country sinks into the ocean, or like, I don't even know what the consequence was. It's like these evil

Eastern Europeans that are always are in the well. I mean, I thought I made note of that too, because I was like, oh, there's it feels like there's a lot of movies where a woman needs to get married by a certain deadline or else there will be consequences. Because Aladdin was another thing that came to mind, which Jasmine has to get married in three days or whatever. So I was like, okay, that's an interesting subversion that a man has to find his wife. Yeah, and that almost

suggests that. But that he's like, you need to rob a woman of her career in the next thirty days or you're fucked, or Christmass can't well, I mean, you know he yeah, he could have found someone who could work from home, you know, yes, Scott, everything of that. Jesus yeah, Well, here's my thing about that, about losing her career and whatnot. She didn't have to necessarily because she could have just been like, oh, I'm the high school principal of the North Pole, you know, because apparently

there's kid alves in schools. But there's got to be some like North Pole bimbo ization, because by the time we get to the Santa Claus three, she's an entirely different person. She's not sharp, she's not funny, she's not like she's just like teaching at an elementary school. She's not like enterprising about like what like what she wants

these kids till now and learned. Yeah, and that happens. Also, there's like a North Pool hymboization to Scott, who like become this soft, not quite as smart or wildly guy, you know. And it even extends to the family members after a while being in the North Pole, they're all these soft, goofy guys, you know, and it's just it's it's it's it's perflexing. Well to Laura, okay the way, well, like, okay,

we have to talk about the plot. I got so frust I'm like Laura and Neil, are we even I was genuinely like, why are Laura and Neil even here? Until I saw Martin short blow, CG error and c G I used them, and I'm like, Oh, that's why they're here. So I can see the worst effect I've ever seen in my life. That's why they're here. And Laura, okay, okay, maybe we should start. Let's start at the top. So Laura, I was like, I was so lost with Laura. I

was like, where is Laura's head at? I don't understand. Okay, what happens in the movie though, Okay, so uh. Santa Claus three opens on Mrs Claus, who is now a teacher at the North Pole, and she starts to tell her students, who are either children elves or adult elves we don't know the forty well, they look younger than most of the other elves. They really do did, and especially at the end of the Santa Claus too, we also see her teach alves a little bit, and those

elves look even younger. They look like Toddler's basically, So where are these elves coming from? Where are they carring from? I don't want to think about it, because yeah, I don't want to know. I don't want to know what my mind goes places. You know, I have ideas about what's happening. I just don't want that to be happening. I just broke a pen. I appreciated the cinematic restraint in not even trying to tell me what happened. I

was like, you know what, I just thanks, thanks. Alright, So she's telling them the story and then we flashback to Mrs Claus, who is now highly gregnant. She is about to give birth. It's like, wait, I know we have to talk about what happens to the movie. You

know what, what if we don't? Was that anyone else like really like confused by the ending shot of the movie where it's like they're greg that they have Santa and Carol have the huge I mean, I guess we don't know how much longer after the baby is born. But the baby is huge. It's like a three month old baby. It's pretty big. It's about the size of Abigail Breslin. And and and then the movie ends on like a shot the baby frame, a freeze frame of

the baby. And not only that, but the last thing that Santa says is like, here's buddy clock Ray class here's crazy, and you're like, wait, did they not know the name? Had they not met the baby yet? What's

what's going on? He brought because it's like, Okay, if she's already back in the classroom, she's already had her full Mrs claus maternity leave, I'm gonna generously assume that, you know, she has good health insurance, although given the fact that she doesn't fit in the hospital, I don't know. But he's already back at work and she has not yet named her baby. Is that no? I think? No, no, no they no, no, no, no no, because she says we named him after his grandfather. Yeah, so no, no, yeah,

they named it. But I'm just saying that it's weird that Santa is like, hey, here's this information you didn't have, even though there's like, I don't know, maybe five elves here and every elve knows everything that happens. So but then there's a freeze frame on the baby. The baby almost but not quite breaks the fourth wall. Good job baby, good baby acting, good baby acting. Don't look in the camera.

I think, if your baby, they'll probably be hard. But the but then it freezes as if to be like you're I felt like the implication was like and the and this is the setup for the Santa Face the next day. We've already established in in Santa Clause movie Cannon that you become Santa Clause by murdering the existing Santa Claus. So is this applying that Buddy Claus is going to kill his father or what about Charlie? What

about Charlie? What about Charlie? And in my draft of Santa Clause for, all of these questions are answered, all these questions. I really think that you know, hashtag make wait, I'm trying to think of a good one. Hashtag hashtag hire Grace to write Santa Claus for. That's not a good one, Grace to Clause for hashtag Santa Grace, Santa Santa Santa Grace. And we we won't demand Disney produced

my dramatic version of the Santa Claus far no more comedy. Now, we just like really get get to like what's behind the characters. You know, it's about time fucking time. I totally agree and think of the film less as a sequel and more of a coda, not only not for the trilogy, but really to our own, our own journeys individually in regards to the Santa Claus mythos and how we accept and move on from that joy wonder Wow,

I mean, where do we go from here? Every time I watch a Santa Claus movie, I'm like, where do we go from here? As a nation, as a culture? Where do we go? Has anyone been keeping up with Tim Allen's Twitter? I felt like we had to talk about it would feel disenjoyed because we know. I think we also discussed this last year that Tim Allen is like an unrepentant Republican, like bad views bad, like we we we we can't. He's he's there, and yet we

cannot claim him because he is bad. But the way he He had a tweet recently, Grace, did you see this one about the Communist Manifesto. He tweets very conspiratorially, in a uniquely Boomer way where he'll just like say things, and I think he's trying to like I think what he's trying to accomplish as a mic drop, But you're like, I don't know what you're saying. So so he tweeted this November Carl Marks Communist Manifesto Wikipedia. That's the whole

and he spells Karl Marks wrong. He spells it with a seat, not a k. He says, Carl Marks Communist Manifesto. Wikipedia, I cannot I can guess what you mean. I can guess. I don't know. Wikipedia throws me for loop. Carl Mark's Communist. Like the first two, I'm like, I see, okay, where's he going with this? There's a connection between those two things. But then Wikipedia, I'm going Often I've often referred to Wikipedia as the modern day I mean, it's been he's

I will give it. I'll give it up to Tim Allen. A bunch of people clowned on him, and he was he was basically like, ah, this is funny. You know, people are like making He's like, you know, I too don't know. And so as a punishment for him, I was like, okay, well, let's go to Tim Allen Wikipedia, which he seems to have contempt for and seeing you know, what's going on, and he is like, he endorsed Trump

in the election, like he sucks, right. But the most recent sentence, the most up to date sentence that seems to be connected to these November tweets, and I honestly didn't pursue the thread outside of the iconic tweet all marks Communist Manifesto Wikipedia. But but all it says is On November, Tim Allen published a series of tweets which appeared to condone and endorse child labor, which I feel like, interestingly in a horrible way, ties to the Santa Claus universe.

So I'm like, did the Santa Claus radicalize dem Allen in the wrong direction? We don't know. We don't know. We know his politics are shitty and bad, but did they come from the Santa Claus. We don't know. What happens in the movie, I'll tell you after this quick break, Okay, and we're back. Okay. So Mrs Claus is telling a story to the children elves. She's she's pregnant, she's about to give birth any day now, but it's also almost Christmas, so it's not a good time. Santa Claus is busy

with Christmas stuff. She also misses her human family. So Santa is like, well, I'll bring your parents here to the North Pole. But they have to maintain the s O s a k. The Secret of Santa, so they have to disguise the North Pole as Canada, so they do that. This is linked to his magic. If the secrets revealed, Santa loses his magic right for whatever reason. But then yeah, then I struggled with the end. If that's true, then how do you explain Alan Arkin realizing

he's father Christmas is law. I think they kill him. I think the credits like you got to see this majes Day and now we're gonna they just leave them out in the cold. Alan Arkin and um old hottie

what was it? And Margaret and Margaret same same amount of syllables were left out in the snow and just just were like, oh, we saw that then, and then they died and were buried and maybe they were given some sort of Christmas tumb But I kind of was like there was about I knew that there was no way that they were just going to let Judge Reinhold never come out of his ice prison. But I was like, how funny would it be if Judge Reinhold just kind

of like stayed whatever Hans soloed there frozen and carbonite. Yeah, that was also a very that was that was a that was a special effect that turned my stomachs. It's awful. It is a nightmare and only thing worse than them getting frozen. Is them getting Yeah, I was trying to figure out why I couldn't find information why David Krumholtz didn't come back and broke my high. Was it because he was on numbers? Yes, it was because he was on numbers? Unbelievable. Numbers is taken so much from us.

I'd think David David crum Holds would have had a film career if this fucking procedural didn't just take him out of it for years. He could have. David Crumholtz would have an oscar right now. If not for a fucking number, you get a bit of fucking contender. We gotta get David Krumhols back in the mix. He's forty two, He's got a lot of career left in him. He it really was like he could have done. I mean, honestly, you could say, babe, he dodged a bullet by missing

the Santa Claus three. But sure, you know, but not. I haven't seen a second of numbers. I just know it's a procedural. And now I know that it took David Crumholtz from us and gave us, gave him to what our moms who watched Number I certainly didn't David crumb Halls. You know, just looking at his recent filmography, I don't know what he's like, but I feel, you know, like later on we were like good for me for

having a good crush. He was in he was in At Home with Amy Sedaris, he was in Nora from Queens. He was in the New Twilight Zone. He's doing some fun stuff. He was in Hail Caesar. Yeah, because he's around on the Holtz. We we got it. We gotta get him back. Where is he at? His presence? I mean, I think it's it's fair to say his presence is is missed in Santa Claus three true. I think the

movie would have made total sense if he was. It would be great if in the Santa Claus for or not we need a Santa Claus for to end the current SOCCA. But when the Santa Claus is eventually rebooted, what if David krump Holtz was in the main role. I would love that. I think about that. I think, honestly, we're at a point in this and then okay, let me know if this is totally off based, but I feel like we're at a point in this movie series where we could kind of easily kill off Tim Allen is, okay,

I think we should. Well, let's not spoil the Santa Claus for by Grace Thomas. Okay, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. Um, well, Shelly, just check in to see what's happening in Santa Claus. Three. Oh yeah, too far into that, sure, Okay, So you know it's a busy time at the North Pole with all of the Christmas in the in the pregnancy or at the beginning. Still five minutes into the movie, and then the Council of Legendary Figures calls an emergency meeting to let Santa

know that Jack Frost has been trying to upstage Santa Claus. Basically, Jack Frost wants his own holiday and he is jealous of Santa. He resents that Santa gets all of the like winter notoriety, and specifically, what he's doing is distributing these full sized cardboard cutouts of him that have sashes around them. That's say, Mary Frost nous. And so apparently Jack Frost can just tell everyone like, I'm Jack Frost. I exist. He's just doing this right. There's no secret

of Frost. There's only a secret of Santa. But this is I mean, talk about frosty tips. You got frosty tips, the frosty because the frostiest tips possible. Aisha Tyler plays Mother Nature, reprising her is God. Basically, she's like God Queen. It's so interesting that in this film God is basically a black woman, and it is not reflected in society at all. You know, It's just that is not reflected at all. The world isn't different in any way. It's

just like, yeah, I should. Tyler is Mother Nature and she's not doing ship for ship, She's just doing these meetings once at all. She's always like sucked into these horrible like political infighting between Santa and Jack Frost. It's like, can you should be dealing with climate change but instead of Nature, you think that would be her, twizy. That is why climate change is happening because Jack Tross and Cupid and the Tooth Fairy and Santa are always seeing

their little piss ship. And also she's the only woman on the council. The rest of the is just like these shitty guys, except for Father Time, who seems chill. But other than that, it's just these shitty guys. It's one of those things where you're like, Okay, of course, like a black woman cast is essentially god and doable. But wait, who's writing it? The writers of there's something about mary Ah. That's where we're going to have a problem.

That's that's why we immediately see her attention turned to the you know, two of the most impotent people in the room, and it stays there, and then she's like, well, I guess I you know, if she were allowed to use her full powers, she could have killed Alan Arkin at the end, but daring to rest his head on her shoulder, she should have just like, you know, like she could have just you know, not that that happened to Alan Arkin, I don't, but she could have zeost

his ass, you know. Well, the thing about this whole meeting is like, yeah, so Jack Frost try to like create a new holiday and apparently only dic She also mother Earth notes that these cardboard cutouts have only been distributed throughout the Pacific Northwest or whatever. She doesn't And and so my thing is why even call a meeting? If they hadn't called this meeting, it would have been fine. He did, and it was fun. That fucked everything up. It was not meaning worthy if there was going to

be that little done about it. And I also was like, okay, people should be like kind of. I appreciate the radical empathy extended to Scott Calvin when he's like, I'm sorry, everyone, I'm just really tired. My wife is regnant, and everyone's like, oh, oh, okay, no problem, which is great paternity leave for Santa Claus for sure. Yes, And they're so mean to Jack Frost.

I'm immediately and nearer to him because I'm like, well, Jack Frost just wants to like have a little fun, maybe have a little celebration of him, and they're just so dismissive and mean, and they call him like the best friend, not the main story. Just like so they're so weird to him, especially when it turns out, you know, he's one of the most powerful beings on earth because he can just freeze people on a whim. I'm like, you don't need to like participate in this council. Yes, exactly.

They're going to punish him by kicking him off the Council of Legendary Creatures, and it's like, what does that do to him? Then he just doesn't have to come to these meetings, like good, good for him, right, are they getting like health insurance by being a part of this council? Like no, he can just go off and do his own things. They're also mad at him because I guess he like made snowfall in the Amazon and stuff, and he froze a volcano. But that's cool, ship. He

should have been doing that. He should do more of that. Honest, you can probably combat global warming also, he should. Well, Okay, so that was a question I had at that eating that comes up, I'm I realized, I haven't looked at my notes in like an hour. Oh my god. So the yeah, based on the way that he is, like Jack Frost is introduced by Mother Nature. She says like he set off, like he set off something like everything.

He sounds like either he's like causing climate change or he's like the Amelia Badlia of weather, because he's like geese are going north for the winter, and it just sounds like everything is going on. Like the implications of what he's doing, it's both implied that it's like catastrophic in a global sense, but also it seems also weirdly limited to like mall cardboard cutout it was like confusing.

My big question too, is like we never figure out how the rest of them, more the like legendary immortal creatures work. Is there a new Jack Frost from time to time? You know what that's like what happens? Also, I thought it was very funny that what he's charged with, like what Mother Nature like reads as the charge to Jack Frost is attempted upstaging of Saint Claus. You're like it's a celony. First of all, like why what vested

interest does Mother Nature have in upholding that law? If she's in charge, why is there a law against upstaging Santa Claus? Who has beholden to that law? Is she is she behold into that law? What kind of is this a democracy? Like if someone puts up an incredible like you know, like what if like you know, like some organization is like giving kids who's whose parents are incarcerated like like presents, does Mother Nature show up and just be like, Oh, you can't do this, You're of

staging Saved Clas and drag them into the earth. So confusing, Like I just yeah, that also hurt me. And then on top of that, okay, so on top of that, we have Carol, who is no longer the Carol we once knew in the Santa Claus too, because she used to be like an administrator at a school. But then she's openly hateful towards like elf children adults in front of them, and she's like, I just want family, human family,

Like you're just like you're so mean. They're all right there, and then the Elves are like, yeah, we we suck, like you're just like what are you, Carol? And I mean she kind of just said she wanted her mom and dad, like she didn't have to be like you little monsters, you know, And the Elves continue to be on her side to the point where, like, know, Santa, who I understand is incredibly busy, I don't think he's

doing anything particularly right. Like she's also being like very insecure and clingy kind of because she's like Santa has to do this and that and can't hang out with me right now, you know, and just keeps like that's her whole thing throughout the whole movie, and it's like, well, it's like a couple of days until Christmas, like come come on, come on, you know, for I mean, you know, unplanned pregnancies happen all the time, but this could this, I mean on the one day he works a year.

I think that don't know how to do c sections, or maybe they don't have big enough knives for humans because the alf Fir Murray as they call it, doesn't have a big enough for her. That does not seem sanitary there I will say, like, there is that one moment where Anne, Margaret and Alan Argan show up at like where she's going to be delivering, and and Margaret says something like she's like, this doesn't seem safe, and I was like, wait, She's totally right, it doesn't seem safe,

not at all. These children can't performance surgery, and and and and Carol doesn't even really fit in this room, like she's going to run out of oxygen. Are these kids? Are these elves children ish people? Are they just gonna like just stare at this adult woman's gaping vagina? That's a good question. And if so, why we're Alan Arkin? Did Alan Arkin and and Margaret just think like, well, I guess that's Canada, Like what were they think? Okay?

The fact that they like are in what's clearly Santa's workshop surrounded by elf children and like are like, yep, I believe this is Canada, Like, what's wrong with them?

They don't. I'll give them this maybe, um the Sandman's magic like kind of altered their perspective, although you know they didn't really go that hard, Like if they had stepped into the wrong room, they would have seen what was going on if they really if they really wanted to make sure that these elves were hidden and would just look like regular people or children, they needed to cut the tips of their ears off too, because they all he's like a little pointy, so they would have

had to cut their ears if they really really do this, you know it's true, so really like, yeah, her parents, UM, I did appreciate the I knew We're only a moment fifteen movie, but I appreciate it. There were some choices made in the set design of this movie that you're like, holy shit. And I did not rewatch the Santa Claus too to prepare for this, so I don't remember if any of this set is carried over from the Santa Claus to My guess is no because it was too

much time. But I have a short list of the set design choices that really fucked me up. The first of which is the Santa Claus Fireplace where Santa Claus, and it looks exactly like Tim Allen Santa Claus. It looks exactly like Allen Santa Claus. They put that in

after he after he became Santa I was horrible. It was sickening, and and it's such a wide shot and it's their family home, and I'm like, that is just not Like Carol needs to like speak up about that whole situation, because he must have had that installed, you know, after their marriage. So that's not good. Set design I did like was all the Canadian sets that were like this is Canada, I promise. I was like, okay, I'm laughing.

That's fun. But the other horrifying set, I guess this is technically prop design is frozen Judge Reinhold, I'm never gonna get over that. That's not okay. Also, I forgot about the room full of snow globes and I hated it. That's all so much bad stuff. It could have been so much more beautiful, Like you could have made a beautiful room full of snow clouds. This was not this. There's not even any locks on them. They could be in like or there's like some sort of magical enchantment.

So just to remind everyone, we talked about this in the last episode. But but this has to do I think with the budget arc of um of of the Santa Claus Extended Universe, which it starts, Uh Santa Claus one budget twenty two million box office million. Santa Claus to we, we said they over at it too much money. Uh sixty five million dollar budget, a hundred seventy two million dollar returns. They're like, Okay, we gotta scale it back.

But then maybe for Santa Claus three they skill it back a little too much because the budget is twelve million and they can barely afford to Mellen and too like five years later or something right like twelve twelve years after the original. So it's like, yeah, twenty two million money. God only knows how much that was. This is twelve million in like future money. It's not a lot of money, and you can tell and it's just such a and it made a lot of money. Still,

it made over a hundred million dollars. That is a very successful comedy. You know, it didn't matter. It turns out it didn't matter if it was good or not. Yeah, well they got Martin Short. They got Martin Short for five million, him Allen for six million, and then they had a million dollars for the rest left. So like SPENCERP. Wreslin, we're paying you in experience, Like it's oh, it's too bad. Okay. I know that she comes in the second movie, but I'm like, every time I see Lucy, I'm like, who

is Lucy? Lucy's there's nothing to her. Her whole stick in the entire movie is I like snow cloves. I love snow cloves, and that's what saves today and where they land for her, I found the end. Okay, wait, we should get back to the movie. I did not like where Lucy's. Lucy's Arland very creepy and weird. So okay, well,

speaking of snow globes. So at this meeting, this meeting of legendary figures, the escape clause gets brought up, but Santa is like, no, that's too extreme, and that's the thing that's the subtile I to love the movie, and we're like, what's the escape clause? And we find out. We find out soon after along with Jack Frost because he's intrigued by the escape clause. We learned that if Santa invokes the escape clause via the use of his magical snow globe, he will travel back through time and

have the opportunity to never become Santa. So this is an important piece of information. This is the out of this entire movie and all of its sins. I touched on this in the last episode. But what I didn't know, Well, so when we were talking about the Santa clause before I had rewatched this, I thought that he was told about the like Santa was told about the escape clause

third film. That is not true already already, which kind of like, why not just cut that scene, like cut the scene where he knows about it, because that you're just well, I just landed on being like, well, I don't like it. But Jack Frost is just a very you know, effective politician. Like there, well, because yeah, in the in the first two movies, he has to learn about the clauses. That's part of the fun and games

of the movie. But for him to already know about the escape clause, so we don't really even get a proper introduction of it until a while later. And then he also he still gets tricked into invoking it, and it's like, wouldn't you know not to say those words because and it's like halfway in the movie where he found Like it feels like the inciting incident happens really far into the movie, like he finally because you're like, oh, okay,

what would get this movie started with him? The trailer would even imply is him wishing he was never saying the clause. But that happens halfway through the It happens more than halfway through, happens an hour into the movie. And here's the thing. I mean, god, you know, so many, so any issues. But when it comes down to it, I mean, he fucking but in the first movie, it's made very clear that he can't just quit being Santa.

It's made very very clear. It just seems manipulative, like since there wasn't out and I mean it really it destroys the entire premise of the first movie. It just it does. And moreover, you have to wonder how many Santa's have there been? Who did just go back? You know? How many? And apparently when you do that, you you have knowledge of the future. So did a Santa like go back and stop nine eleven? You know? Like Santa. Yeah, how how how far does this power go? How can

can it? Like it spits on Santa Claus And that was why I was personally so mad. They went back in time and went back to the first Santa clause movie. I'm like, that's you stay you stay away from that. I want short anywhere near that. Scott Calvin, you know, he retains all of his memories when the future, which I mean, and I guess it's a fail safe to you go back to the moment you were turned into Santa,

So you guess. I guess you have another second to like the side, right, you could still make the choice to become Santa again in case you change. Oh my god, it's really mess at. Well, let's talk about what happens for the hour before this happens, because there's a lot of ship that doesn't make any sense. So because there's like forty seven plotlines. Um, So, after we learned about the escape clause, Santa goes to pick up his what his wife's parents and bring them to the North Pole.

He also brings his his ex wife Laura, which is like, can anyone unspool that for me? The Laura, I know, the Laura I know would not be extremely eager to get my ex husband, who I have like a tensely okay relationship with at best, like my ex who I am like co parenting with, but then I'm not going to talk to him. The second Charlie graduates, why is she so eager to go be like at the bedside

of his pregnant new wife. That did not make sense to me, And I was like, Laura would never So one thing I do have to say is they have a much warmer relationship in Santa Claus to the like they do. They do have a much warmer relationship and friendship. But I totally agree her. It's so frustrating. It's just like totally different tone and she's all of a sudden,

just like wide eyed, bushy tail Santa Claus. Oh, I want to make a doll and and and and it just it's what really gets to me is that Neil and Laura are all of a sudden turned into these totally different characters that have no grounding in reality. And that shows how the rest of the film is not

like rounded emotionally at all. So there's no like, there's nothing, there's nothing to learn, there's nothing to feel, you know, yeah, like even if they do have a good relationship, I just can't see her offering to be his new wife's midwife out of like it just doesn't make sense to me. And then if Lucy really wanted to go, I could see her and Neil going with her, but I think they wouldn't be like, oh, oh my god. They would be like, oh, this is cool, and here's the thing.

Here's the thing. It would have been much funnier if they were themselves. It would have been much a much funnier movie if they were themselves. And Neil hams it up and I was like yoga with the elves, but that's not it. And also there's these weird just generic East Asian music cues, are music cues the whole Neil.

I mean, I feel like that kind of follows throughout the series as well of like a general So first of all, there are a number of weird racist music cues used whenever he talks about therapy and this movie. I mean there's like a moment in the Santa Claus, the first Santa Claus to where it's like very anti therapy, very anti mental health for minute old because Neil is always made out to be like this hippie who's like trying to take care of his mental health and what

a loser. Like that whole plot, that whole like angle does not age very well. But it was like especially bad in this movie. It was when he was like, let's take feelings inventory and you're like, okay, that is like I guess what this character would say. But then he's like using it to rationalize doing something that isn't what his character would do. I just don't get it.

It was annoying and it's manipulative, and Neil in the earlier films I agree they shipped on it, but they also like let Neil be himself, and they also let him be like a reasonable parent, you know, like he's not he's not a villain. He's just like a guy

they kind of make fun of, you know. That's kind of what I liked about Neil in the first movie was like the part of what aggravated Scott so much about Neil was that he was like a good guy and that really loved Laura, and like that's a more effective like emotional choice has been like making a you know, a villain, Mary, your ex wife, is making a genuinely nice guy who loves your ex wife be with her like that's I don't know. I thought that was cool.

You don't usually and then they just whatever, throw it all away, throw it all away, kissing me off another weird thing, And I guess I understand why they did this, but it's also like, narratively speaking, it's a weird choice where they've shifted focus away from Charlie to Lucy. And Charlie is barely in the third movie, and it's like, yeah, he's a teenager that we're invested in Charlie as a

character in his growth as a human being. And then not not only did they switch him out for Lucy, And I mean, I would understand him taking a backseat, but they don't hardly put him in at all, except for the fact that he saves the fucking day in the end, like he calls upon he apparently is in contact with the Council of Legendary Creatures. He calls upon them to like save the day in the end and

like help make enough toys and whatnot. So he's just like in the background, like checking in, like okay, all right, well I gotta make some calls, you guys, do your little story and then I gotta like makes makes some send some emails, you know. But the other thing is Lucy is nothing character. There's nothing, nothing to Lucy at all except for the love of snow gloves. I feel bad because I'm like, okay, it's not I'm not talking on the actor the character. I'm just like, I've gotten

I've got no interest in this character. I almost felt like she was being used at times because they couldn't afford to have Alan Arkin there, or they couldn't afford to have they only had Martin Short for so many days, like because Lucy would be used so in such like clutch moments, usually with like a red Bull machine. I just was like, yeah, red deer, red deer, red Deer. I'm like, okay, I'm I've never been laughing less in my entire life, Like then when I saw a red deer.

We've got to continue this synopsis because I have things to say about the Red Deer magi, but I feel like they'd be confusing if I said them now. But yeah, Lucy as a character, I'm just like the least developed and I'm so disinterested in her. Sorry, And she's there and Charlie is so basically like the whole family is now with the North Pole minus Charlie. So we're back at the North Pole. Jack Frost has been scheming. He's like breaking stuff, He's breaking the machinery, he's chaos is

just erupting all around them. And then he finally figures out how to get into the Hall of snow Globes where he goes into and sneal and steals Santa's snails, magic snow Globes. Neil, I love it. That's that's for all the fan people that wanted Santa to hook up with Neo. That's what they called. There's a category on fan fixed. Oh my god, this is such a joyless

film that they're really there. Really isn't even like I don't even chip anyone with anyone really except Santa and Jack Frost, just because I think it would be cool, not because I think the movie laid that groundwork, really, but I will say that at one point in my notes, I wrote down, Um, the Santa Claus three is a coming out story. The North Pool itself is gay, maybe even trans. I'm sorry trying to like ground it. I

just think you can't. You can't you can't ignore the fact that after the time travel menanigans, the North Pool is basically turned into a place for Jack processing show tunes. You can't ignore that. You simply can't. It's true. It's true, and Baby moats Art is there. What happens makes you think,

It makes you think what happens sex. So, in addition to like all this chaos happening around the workshop, things are very tense between Santa and Mrs Claus and her parents and her are like, maybe we should have never come here, And then Jack Frost tricks Santa into saying I wish I'd never become Santa at all while he's holding the snow globe, which transforms both of them back their time on the night from the Santa Claus one when Scott Calvin kills Santa some random Santa and puts

on his suit, only this time Jack Frost gets to it first and he puts on the Santa suit, making him become Santa. So then Scott Calvin is transported into this kind of like alternate timeline where he never became Santa. He's like a corporate stooge. He doesn't talk to his family anymore. His son hates him. Laura and Neil are divorced, and then, like, as we've said, Jack Frost has like

commercialized the North Pole. I hate that his funk up means that Laura has to go through additional emotional trauma. Why does Scott rubbing a snow glove mean that Laura has to go through a second divorce. Not not only that, but they hint that she has like a shitty job like waitressing or something, or working in retail because they give her a name. Take yeah, I don't even realize.

Oh okay, so now you're like, now she's also like poor even though her ex husband is like CEO of toys like what the and her other ex husband is doctor psychiatrists, like what the? It passed me up at that. I was like, why are we punishing Like, hasn't Laura been through enough? Hasn't Laura exhibited extreme patience with her ex husband Santa Clause over the years? Yes, why are

we still punishing her? Are we still punishing Charlie And I don't come on, I don't mean to rewind, but we did skip through a lot of stuff just now. In so so so Lucy and Lucy's parents also go up with Carol's parents and um Santa shows Lucy the snow glob room that we spoke of. And how you get to the snow globe room is you turn a couple of levers on a red deer like red bull

vending machine. Did you, guys when you were kids and you didn't have any money and you have to wait for your parents or something somewhere, did you guys just press buttons on a vending machine or whatever? Because I used to do that all the or I would take like a common Pokemon card that didn't wasn't worth anything and just shove it into the dollars lot and see

if something happen. They do was like, well this is a low value card, so this is the flowers to see if something would happen, or put a piece of paper in there, or taking like a paper clips. I guess like what I'm saying is I tried to rob any machines that was never successful. I think I actually used him a chop, but I have this crystal clear memory of that. For some just shoving up a chop

into a you just gotta see what happens. Evocative. This is going to be in my Memoise and throughout this time, Jack Frost has been cleaning this information about how to get the snow and what Santa needs to do exactly.

Um and at the same time he's just been fucking up the whole workshop by just freezing random things around the workshop and and creating huge fires and YadA YadA, and no one's able to tell it's Jack Frost apparently, because even though this enemy of Christmas is like being punished by having to work there, no one's got an eye on him, which is Curtis's fault again another funk

up from Curtis. Curtis is an abject failure. Like sorry, I mean, it's like but it's it's it's it's why elves should have basic income because if Elves had basic income, Curtis could be fired and still have the resources that he needed, but he can't. The only way for Elves

to survive is to do this busy work. Um. So Jack Frost at all has also been messing with with Santa and Mrs Claus's marriage my causing various chaos and Carol again is just like, oh no, Santa's gotta gotta do all this stuff and isn't paying attention to me while there are literal fires happening. She's while all of this is happening, while her explosions and fires and machines going hey wire, She's like, why isn't Santa paying attention

to me? It's infuriating, especially when you consider that her previous career was a school administrator. She's uniquely qualified to deal with this problem, like she has a master's for this. Carol is a totally different character. It's so frustrating because it's like it would literally have helped the script if she just pulled from her known skill set to deal with the problem. But instead they're so interested in just like making her so subservient and obsessed with her like

Santa husband. It just is so frustrating. Up, she's the one telling this story, so she is the one betraying herself. She's betraying herself as subservient's betraying herself is totally incompetent. I didn't even think of that. That's and insecure and codependent. She's the one telling this story that is brutal. I didn't even think of that. I was like, oh, this

is all according to Carol. What if she finished that story and Scott was in the back of the classroom and he's like, oh my god, Carol, you're being so hard on yourself. That would have been a beautiful way to end it, like, and it ended up being with her reckoning like, oh my god, I have such low self esteem, and like it goes I'm like, wow, I'm

seeing myself all of a sudden, I'm seeing myself in Carol. Yeah, and Santa like to an appointment with like a cognitive behavior Alf's therapist, Neil, and then Neil is like, Carol, You're like you have you have been present, you just are not giving yourself. You know. He needs some self esteem. And Carl's like, oh my god, I'm seeing it. Also clearly cut the get rid of the freeze frame on the baby is the last shot. The last shot should be like her like realization, like the Carol's waken up.

I need to I need to realize my value. Yeah, and then that's how the movie ends. That's a relatable journey. I would be so on board with Carol being like, I why am I punishing myself? All I've done is my very best. I think that would have been really good, especially if they jumped forward like a thousand years and Carol was getting like really old, and she was giving the commencement speech at alf University, which is the university she founded. Is that a sister college to Santa University?

It is? It is? Yeah, it would be Alfa University and not. I'm just just like, look at how the al firma right. Of course, the elves need an education. They deserve an enyation. I hope it's free. I don't know what if the elves are in debt, they should. I think they have a union. Do you think they've unionized? Definitely not, because they have one. They literally work with their god, like Santa is their god. They work. That's

like have the angels unionized? No, because their entire their entire stick is like like just serving God, and the elves entire stick is serving Santa. He can literally There's multiple times in the movie where he tells the elves to say something and then they all say it in unison. We love this is class. After she's like, I want a human family. These elves are are I hate them? And I'm like, okay, first of all, those are obviously human children, Carol. They're like, read the room, but she won't.

She I felt okay, so and then another moment because Carol like, you're totally right, great, she has nothing to do with the Carol we met and fell in love

with in Santa Claus too. And then there's even a scene where I was like on Jack Frost's side yet again, where he kind of there's like a scene where Carol is like just blankly staring at a Christmas tree, like blankly touching it with her fingers and just and she's filling up a Christmas tree and then Martin short leans in and it's like, hey, Carol, and then he basically said a bunch of things that I agreed with, where he was like, so, don't you regret marrying someone who

values their job more than they value you, Like, don't you ever feel like lesser than in the way that your husband treats you? And she was like, no, I don't. And she's like she's like tweaking the Christmas trees nipples the whole time, not even making eye contact with Jack Frost as being like, no, I love I love Christmas. I just wish my husband was would be looking at

my my jingle bell pregnancy more. I'm when is Greg going to come and you're just I was so frustrated with her in that scene because I'm like, that's not the carolinea And I'm on board with Jack Frost. I agree. My whole thing too, is that like she could have responded like, well, I don't think he prioritizes work over me. I think that like this is like a difficult time, Like she could have said something that made sense for why she wanted to stay with Scott, but also wasn't

her just being like Christmas, you know? But she simply did not, And she even goes as far as so like let Jack pick the Christmas tree, like when her whole thing was like I'm going to pick this Christmas. She's getting mowed over. It's so not fair. It makes me.

It made me sad, yeah, because I was just like Carol, like, you're totally right, Like she could have just been like, well, if this was a March birth, it would be a very different story, but she's like I don't care, Like it's just so it made me sad to Carol's parents, not like I know that Carol's parents need to be completely like not caring about anything in order for this plot to work, but they also are like, okay, this is actually a two prong question. I'm so sorry we're

about to hit the two hour mark. The I have a two prong question, which is, first of all, I was like, wait a second, like Alan Arkin and and Margaret seemed to be very like I just was I would be curious of what the discussion was when she went home to them, was like, I'm marrying an elderly Canadian toy maker. No, not I'm marry I'm married, Not I'm married. They had before they had to be, but he guilts her into marrying him at the end of that movie. We'll talk about that grace when you come

back for the Center Claus two episode. But but but like we're to like if you're, you know, a successful school administrator and you're like thirties and you go home to your parents that you say, I have just I've already married an elderly Canadian toymaker. I just feel like there is a bigger conversation there that we never get a look into. And then on top of that, I have a just a because I didn't rewatch the Santa Claus to for this is Carol now immortal? Is that?

Like I think so I think she think, Well, here's what I think. I think so, so think about this. When Scott Calvin goes to the North Pole in the first this movie, right after Santa Claus dies, he does not meet the old Mrs Claus right now, So I think what what must be forbid and true is that when someone becomes any Mrs Clause, they are basically pledging there there they're entwining their life literally in with Santa Claus,

so that when Santa Claus dies, Mrs Claus dies. I brought this up on the on the on the other episode, Yeah, we talked about this where I think her life force, Mrs Claus's life force is attached to Mr Claus and if he dies, she dies unless unless So between Santa Claus one and two, there's what like whatever number of years that Scott Calvin is not married, so he's allowed he's apparently allowed to get away, so seven years that he's not so he's allowed to get away without a

Mrs Claus for seven years until suddenly there's this other clause where he is of the tee. There's like actually year seven. Actually it becomes urgent. Suddenly it's very urgent. So maybe the Santa Claus, that Scott Calvin Kills was also just unmarried the way that he is unmarried for seven years at the onset of Santa Claus too, that's a possibility that we must consider. Please and thank you. I think it's possible, but I do not think that's

the case. I think possibly so. But but that but that is all to say, like now that she is permanently But it just I also feel like it is a weird movie choice, right because usually traditionally we see Santa Claus and Mrs Clause are you know of comparable ages visually, but to you know, preserve Mrs Claus in carbonite as a young woman of birthing age forever her I'm like, is she is her job to be pregnant now?

Like that? I just was like I was stumbling over that. Um, what I'm trying to say is I find just missed David Krumholtz. Well, No, that's an interesting point because like again, because Tim Allen as Santa looks visibly quite old, he's

got white hair, he seems like a senior. Whereas Carol as Mrs Claus, they don't age her up at all because, like Tim Allen they're still technically like he's like older than her as got Calvin, but not literally, but like they visibly aged Tim Allen up, but they do not age her up at all, because it's like a Hollywood sexist thing where it's like, well, we don't want to see an older woman on screen with our eyes gross. We have to keep her young looking and preserve her

youthful looks. But we can age this man up as much as we want. So yeah, and it's I also, I wonder if Santa is in control of that, you know, well, I mean I guess he is, Like apparently there's a whole law about how you cannot cross him, so maybe mean, Caitlin seven hours, Well, let me finish this recap. I'm almost done, and then then we'll start there and then just then that begins the two hour discussion. We will have no um okay. So Jack Frost as Santa has

commercialized the North Pole turned it into a resort. So Scott Calvin goes back to the North Pole, confronts Jack Frost, who looks so frightening as Santa Claus by the way, and Scott Calvin has Lucy help him get his snow globe back, and then Scott tricks Jack Frost into saying that he wished he had never he had like voice

recorded it earlier. The spell gets the clause gets reversed, and it transforms them back to the same moment in the first movie, where we then cut to footage from the first movie and uh, Scott is like holds Jack Frost back so that Scott Calvin can put on the Santa suit and everything goes back to the way it was with Scott being Santa Claus. And so he goes back to the North Pole. He and Carol makeup, she has her baby, and then that's the end of the movie.

I think you do. Gracie brought this up a couple of hours ago, but I I do think that you know, nine eleven should come up in this movie, and it doesn't. Well, six that's a big cultural so it kind of does. It kind of does because there is so when Curtis is like, Curtis is in this little excomobile and he comes up to Jack Frost and Jack Fross is like, so, I have heard about this escape clause. Can you tell me more? Curtis says, no, I can't because of the

elf Land Security Act. Oh yes, right, Oh my god, that totally went over my head. And if we all remember, if we all remember in the Santa Claus too, we see that in the North Pole has a military not just the strike team from Santa Claus one, but there's Health Khan too, and they have there's like met military medals and stuff. Yes, I totally forgot they militarized the North Pole and Padel. You've gotten wonder what was there? How many planes? How many planes? Three? Four? Nos? Four planes?

Because whatever? So was there? A fifth plane was there? Oh my god, my gums started bleeding when you said that. It's oh my god, there don't look at my teeth. Okay, going on, moving, moving right along. That was the one thing I forgot to write this down. But the part of set design that I also found very visually striking and disturbing was the Santa Claus plane. The North Pole plane. Oh my god, are you okay? It happens sometimes when I get really worked up. I just started to bleed

from from everywhere. Um, I happened with my teeth, It happens with my nose. It happens all the time. Okay, I'm falling apart and the plane where it's like you get the aerial shot of the plane and it's Santa's arms wingspans, like he's a bird who can fly. I think, okay, could we quickly because I think we've I mean, Carol disserviced, not the woman we met completely, just like she's and she also disappears for so like long stretches of the moving When Scott goes back in time, Carol is the

only one he doesn't say hi to. And also no one knows who she is, so it's you feel bad, You're like, okay, so no one even knows she exists

in this timeframe. That's really sad, right. They explain it as as like because he's like where he's talking to Laura when he goes back, he's like in the alternate timeline, and he's like, where's Carol Newman And she's like who Charlie's principle, I don't know she moved away, but it would have been such a more like a stronger emotional beat if he had gone to her and she's like, I don't know who you are, or like I don't heard that my student's dad who never bothers to show

up to anything. A piece of ship, Like why wouldn't they have included them? Anyway, Here's what I think was going on. Here's my theory. I mean, so this actress who plays Mrs Claus, Elizabeth Mitchell, was on Lost from two thousand, so she might have been shooting Lost and they maybe didn't have as much time with her as

they thought they would. That's I think that. My guess is that happened with a lot of actors in this movie is they didn't have a big enough like The Santa Claus three doesn't have a better budget than Lost. So if Elizabeth Mitchell is like, well where am I gonna go, She's gonna go with Lost and not The

Santa Claus. My guess is that maybe maybe maybe maybe Ed Dector and John J. Strauss don't come on the pod, but like let us know, you know, like I would bet that maybe she was supposed to be more involved and then maybe I don't know, that's maybe Hollywood should learn a little fucking loyalty. You know. She should have been like, fuck you, damon Lindelof, I'm going to buy a Mrs Claus and I'm going to be so pregnant.

That'll show him and that will show him. But one other thing, one other thing, one just one do you can only get one more grace. I just thought, you know, if I was Carol's parents, like just taking in what I've been told is Canada, I'd be like, well, this obviously is in Canada, and my son in law is running a human trafficking This is obviously some sort of like child trafficking thing. These child little like indentured servants, Like this is horrible. We need to call someone. It's very,

very dark, like the Elf situation. I feel like I I try, I have to almost suspend my disbelief and be like I think that we're supposed to think. I can't get too deep into it, or I'll start to cry. It doesn't, it doesn't. Something's not right there, not right there. And now Jamie's Jamie's comes are just gushy. Are your eyes bleeding? Are you bleeding from your eyes? It just burns the blood vessel in my eye because I thought too hard about the Santa clause. Again, it happens to

me all the time. This is just where we're at at this point in the year. But but speaking to the Elves, Spencer Breslyn's character sucks so much. He's supposed to be the best self. As we've said, he's not the best elf. But the way that he displays that he's not the best elf is that he gets into this weird like masculinity like superiority contest with Martin Short, where Martin Short dupes him so easily, Like, I bet you don't even know what this really specific law is

its presents, Like are you serious? Of course I know what this specific law is. Here's this specific law. Fuck that, um, But let's talk about Lucy really quick, because we didn't really end up getting to Lucy. Here's my question, why do Why am I supposed to care about Lucy? You're not even I don't care about Lucy, and I feel bad, but I also don't know's got to be a deleted scene too, because like, so yes, it's Scott fixes it,

he's Santag and Jack Frost. It has been subdued, and the Council of Legends, as we said, has been called by Charlie um and and they're mad at Jack Frost. However, Lucy's parents, Laura and Neil, are still frozen, and Jack Frost says, I can't unfreeze them because to unfreeze, I would have to unfreeze myself, which I don't know what in the moment, I don't know what that means. Jack Frost is a fucking elemental afagar of ice. I laid on the floor when that happens, like that, hid the

movie ends in five minutes. What do you mean? What are you talking about? And then Santa gives Lucy a nod and it's like, you know what to do, as if they've discussed this a point of the movie, which, if so gross does and she goes up to this villainous man and gives him a big hug, which thoughts him this disgusting way where his skin starts to he starts to melt. And as this happens, he he he

gives out moans of pleasure. This girl is holding him because like just he's moaning in pleasure, and he's like, who I smell sunscreen? You know like that? And then he speaks Spanish. He speaks Spanish, and he's done this. He's been my cake compadre before and this is like a Martin short dag that he brings into all of his fucking roles from like the three of me goes onwards. He'll just break in a Spanish sometimes and it comes

home's pretty weird and races. I guess like it just is out of my field, and it feels like it's like the joke is that he's speaking Spanish, and I feel like if they joke because that you're speaking another language, that's not great. The worst part is social. After she's done hugging him and he's continuing to melt or unfreeze, I guess this is the word in this world, not melt unfreeze. He goes, I don't know, how could you do this? And she goes, you didn't know about the

power of magic hugs. Because of that, she has that power, not just a regular power. Can I keep going because I think per magic hugs? And what happens? Skin open? As yes, she wrecks his skin open. He moans in pleasure, and as soon as he's unfrozen, he's suddenly in a white suit. His skin is normal. But worst of all, he's got like this comb over thing going on. He no longer has his hair frozen bag, which is like

perfect hair for Barton short. He's just got regular hair, which makes him look like an adult child, just a real fucking weirdo, like a little fucking like disgraced pastor, and he just it's disgusting, Like what happened is not just disgusting, it also is like kind of set up too much in a way. That because in an earlier scene Lucy, like Santa brings Lucy into the Hall of snow Gloves, which is like the hall of photoshop floating snowblooks. But in that scene, Lucy grabs the snow globe that

she's like, oh, it's my snow globe. And then you zoom into this snow globe and it's a tinier Lucy and she hugs a snowman and the snowman turns pink, foreshadowing Yeah, and then Scots like you have those magics, Scott set up. I just didn't fucking catch it. I mean, this poetry, it is, it is there is what the thing about this? This it's like any given the Santa Claus movie is a million word poem, right, because you got the dialogue, but you've also got all the pictures.

And if a picture is worth a thousand words, and this must be a million word poem. This is not a good poem, but it is a poem, and there is it is the fact that that Lucy has magical hugs, which is a creepy set up. The creepy payoff is set up with a creepy setup. I hate it. I wish that, like Lucy doesn't need to be there, you

can cut out that whole. I get like we want to bring Laura and Judge Reinhold back into it, but like you could have gotten rid of them, especially if you're getting rid of Charlie to Like, what's the point of bringing that back? I mean, when you think about it, what this movie is is really a climate change origin story. Because Okay, I'm listening to all of a sudden, Jack Frost doesn't ust anymore. The man who summons winter is just gone. We don't know. Also, is he gonna diet

now that he's lost his ice magic? Is he not an immortal anymore? Has this? Has this little girl damned him to hell? We don't know. Are these more questions that you will answer in the Santa claus For? Perhaps the Santa claus For is actually kind of a bottle episode. It all takes place at the hospital. Good I don't want to spoil anything else, but he don know if Bernard isn't there, I'm gonna scream, I'm gonna lose it. I'm gonna bring there's gonna be consequences if Bernard's not there.

All right, we need crumb Holt available because we know mentioned Martin short kind of randomly speaking Spanish in ways that displayed as a racist joke. Let's not forget the duck, the toy duck that speaks three languages. The duck says, l Duco says QUACKO. L duck says quack and ill duck says quack. A. So it's I guess it's Spanish, French and Italian. But it's just like, are you fucking joking? L ducko says quacko. That to me, that was just

horrendous writing. That was just like the worst word, Like you couldn't translate three sentences. That wasn't the duck says quack. Also that the logic of that toy doesn't even make sense. Why would you want a duck that when you squeeze it, it it says hi, I'm a duck, I say quack. That doesn't even make any sense. Yeah, that was that was like that was a very two thousand they're like I want a duck that says, yeah, that wasn't that

was ridiculous. I didn't like the music cues that were like lined up with Neil that was really two thousand six in an unsavory way. It's just there's there's just so much of this movie you're just like, what is fucked up? And what is just horrific writing? And sometimes it's both. Are all the elves white? No? There there you do see some non white elves scattered, but they're not they're rarely given any lines. Ifever, they're not prominently featured. Yeah,

definitely not. There's there's more people of color and this movie than is in the Santa Claus One, but not in meaningful roles. Because even when it's like Aisha Tyler is God, but still they don't give her anything to do. Uh. Kind of the same thing with the Sandman. Who is that guy from Star Trek What is his name? He's

like a star Trek legend Michael Dorn. Yeah, he's like he's a Star Trek legend and he plays the Sandman and he's like he's in one scene and it's like, I get the movie is not funny, but it's supposed to be funny, but then he never comes back and so it's just like it's just an empty husk of a fucking movie. It sucks. We didn't even talk about how the whole opening sequence is like Mrs Claus going into labor just kidding and then everyone's mad at her happen.

One of the albums is like I canceled that patticure for this, which just threw so many opportunities for interesting relationships between women. There were like more opportunities for like let's give motherfucking nature something to do, and it just

like it just doesn't happen. It just never happens. And with Carol, like we we were talking about how she the way that she's characterized in Santa Claus two is completely undone, and she's made to seem, you know this like codependent, you know, kind of there's a bunch of weird stuff going on there. I do want to give I'm hesitant to dump too much on her just because like she has every right to like expect things from her partner, even if it is like busy season at work.

But like sure, yeah, it's the way, but the way it's written, the ways written He's like, there's no nuance to it. It's just like a fucking mess. Nothing makes it, And she's just like, if I'm being honest, I also don't think that the writers just knowing that they're the same writers, as there's something about Mary. I don't think that they are like, oh, it just didn't read for

a lot of people that she actually does deserve better. Like, I don't think that they are thinking that hard about her character, which is why I felt like a little more comfortable dumping on it, because I'm like, these these writers have demonstrated time and time again that they don't really care about how they write female characters at all. Totally. Is there something about Mary not like a cool feminist movie? Oh? Sorry,

I should have it actually really is? And so I say that because I'm like, well, nothing they wrote could compare to the we gave it five nipples across the board. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, Carol very clearly deserves better. But I don't think the writers think that. Yeah, for sure, they're just like wives are naggy, right, wives are like always just like, why don't you spend more time with me? Yeah?

In the second movie, they did have her as a fully realized character who like maybe unreasonably made a decision in the end to throw her life away for that. She like she like, you know, was this like principle who had like a personality and whatnot. And now they're just like, well, now she's not woman, she's wife. No longer wife now, you know, right, Like being married makes her suddenly deeply uncomplicated, obsessed with reproduction and the attention

of her husband. Like that, That's where I thought those writers were at. I just didn't think they were trying to build a nuance for sure character. She definitely deserves better, and I see, like, obviously, if you're eight months pregnant year round, you're gonna like need some assistance, and you deserve some assistance from your partner. But they're just like I don't, I don't, like they're thinking, no, no, no, they're not. There was a game Boy game for this.

What there's a there's a I'm sorry, I was just like going through Wikipedia. Let me double chat. There are no game Boy Advance, game Boy Advance in two thousand six, there was a game Boy Advance game. There's a play through on YouTube that I'm scrolling through right now. You're playing a Santa in some scenes, but then two thirds of the way through the game, much like the movie, you become Tim Allen in a suit, and I think you just played through the plot of the movie. I

think that's all you do. Incredible. Well, it sounds like a great game. Then, since this movie took good I feel so bad for Alan Arkin to have to have been in this movie. I feel really bad for i should Tyler. I think that the Tooth Fairy wishes he was Robert de Niro. Um the Easter Bunny is scary. I'm just reading through the three notes that I took for this movie. Wasn't expecting the anti capitalist message, but like you said, Jamie, it feels extremely hollow coming from

a Disney movie. Right. I'm just like, okay, cool, So did you not want me to pay you eighteen dollars? And that's what annoys me is when hyper capitalist companies are like what if I made an anti capitalist message? And I'm like, well, fuck you. I don't know, I just it makes me. I know that it makes me. Man. I'm just like, okay, cool, but like you still, oh sorry, do you not want me to go to your theme parks?

Like what are you saying? This was Disney being like all other theme parks are that ethical theme parks under capitalism are Disney World. That's how that's the new that's the new phrase, which is so such bullshit because it's the second you even step foot within like twenty miles of Disneyland, they're trying to upsell you on everything, which is like what happens at North Pole, the theme park in the movie. So it's just like, what are you

talking about? Disney? There's this? And then but I do I did maybe I was just so emotionally exhausted at this point. But at the end where Alan Arkins says, so your father Christmas, which means and he keeps like really milking it, and he's like, so that means that I'm father in law Chris Smiths and then and then the movie pauses for laughs, which is never a good sign when the movie like building time for you to laugh. Oh, it's not good. But doesn't that mean he has to die? Then?

Oh he must die? You knew the secret. I think that I think that father Christmas in law would have also just been a funnier string of words. That's my personal opinion. I mean this fucking that. That exchange takes like thirty seconds. It's so poorly edited and long. It's really long. It keeps cutting back to Tim Alan and it's like, m I don't really care how he reacts, but that means they have to kill Alan Arkin Grace Like they keep repeating s os, do you guys think

Alan Arkin is a cool guy in real life? So so I just feel like I'm not saying he's a bad dude, but he's kind of out one mode and it's like cranky dude. I don't know, maybe maybe that's not his in real life mode. But I always wonder when guys, like when actors only have one mode? Is that because maybe I mean that's Tim Allen, Right, that's Tim Allen. That's what I mean, Karl Mark's Communist manifesto Wikipedia. Wikipedia. That's what if? What if they cut do okay over

the shoulder shot of Scott Calvin Santa Claus. He's making unless he's checking into twice, but all it says it's Wikipedia, ver and over and over. I think you have a five to ten k like meme on your aunts. Jake, Alright, I gotta I gotta get out of here. My friends I got, I got Sarahton into Chase. Does anyone we've been recording for a hundred hours, does anyone have any other thoughts feeling? I have a few? Can I just

read off some notes? Okay, I'm just gonna start from the from the top, which might include something that I've already said, but I'm just going to read them off. How are new elves made? They're all kids? Have a Gail Breslin. If Mrs Class is teaching elementary school, then who's teaching high school? Huge? Tim Alan Santa fireplace in hospital? Not just Santa tim Alan Santa Dollar Store? Beans is back? Why doesn't the al firm al Firm have a human ward? If elves are not born but made, what do they

think of pregnancy and birth? Is the child elf doctor going to pull the baby out of out of this spots? I think the reindeer are very ill all the time. They are. They're party. They are full of slime and so very sticky and what this whole movie has a much less down to earth feel, very truly weird music and it's more goofy tone makes Lucy's whole deal. I'll just not stand out. They they hate Jack Frost because he's gay. Jack is simply more messy than naughty. But

more than that, he understands how the world works. Jack could have singlehandedly killed Santa with one breath. No, but the legendary figures can't use their magic on each other. Remember this is that's true, but until the end of the break the law. Break the law. At this point, I think it's it's not like a legal thing. It's like they physically cannot do it physically. There's just so

many different types of laws in this world. Okay, Also very important, why is Jack obsessed with with asking random people to be his elves? He does just very awkwardly, like shoe horning, you beat my elf, and that just doesn't make It doesn't make any sense, especially because he's got this plot to just be um Santa. Because he asks some of the already existing elves, then he asks Lucy the human Child, and then he and then he also he also asks and Margaret in like a sexy

seductive way. He's like, will you be my elf? And she's like, but it's like, what is your game, sir? There should be a there should be a spinoff of the Santa Claus through the Escape clause. That is just more Jack's like Jack Frost, Jack Ship, Jack Dawson from Titanic Jack Dawson. Have you guys considered like what if this movie had made a billion dollars, would have had Like you can't say that like this was before Iron Man.

We could We could just have a bunch of like Christmas movies throughout every year and different like legends and whatnot and not not superheroes. I don't know if imagine how. Yeah, the world would be so different it hurts. It hurts to think about would you prefer that world or the one that we currently have or if you didn't, if you didn't know what that question, if you didn't know what that world was like you just knew it was different.

Would you take a chance and jump into it? Oh? Fun, Yes, yes I think so, and I would be Would I be disappointed? Yes? Would I regret it? But would I have what I have tried? Much like being Santa's wife. I would give it a good six months just to see and then I would escape clause myself. Okay, that's

what I was just gonna say. The movie should be about Mrs Claus having the opportunity to invoke the Escape clause should her story, The Escape should be divorced, because she's given up, She's sacrificed everything in her life, her who, like her family, her career, like all this stuff. She

probably has some regrets. This movie would have been so much better if it had been about her and her journey and her deciding whether or not she wanted to escape this life, or if maybe she maybe, through this journey she learns that it is worth it after all. But that would have been so much more compelling. I don't give a shit If Scott Kelvin wants to not be Santa anymore, I don't care well. And also Santa Never, like Scott Never really doesn't want to be Santa exactly.

It's not like It's a Wonderful Life where he's like really like, I don't want to real life anymore. I'm going to drop off. You know. He doesn't do that perfect perfect no nuts. If this was just like a beat for a beat redo of It's a Wonderful Life with Santa Claus, it would have been up my better movie. Yeah, and I hate It's a Wonderful Life. And I know I'm alone in thinking that, but I think that movie sucks and I don't find it charming or good at all.

There I said it. I don't feel strongly either way, but oh I feel about it's a wonderful life. I've seen it. I'm like, yeah, that was nice, and that's all I have to say about it. And then my head exploded in blood, which is you know, want to happen? All right? Does anyone have anything else? We have to stop? So the movie sucks. I wish I could invoke an escape clause from ever having seen this movie. Yeah, get me the funk out of this movie. That would be

my review. Here's my review. If I was a film critic and writing like like an article, like a review and a publication, I'd say Scott Calvin wishes he had never become Santa at all. I wish I had never seen Santa Claus three at all. I I think that what we've done here tonight is better than the Santa Claus three, and it did not cost twelve million dollars and it was twice as long, and it was twice

as long. I just would like to say just one more thing, Please, please, please, Grace, you get one more thing. The easter. Boddy openly ships some before workshop he's helping on Christmas Eve. Yeah, he's like, sorry, sorry about the pillets, I'm leaving beyond I blocked that out. You're totally right,

so we do. We see him both shipped on the floor and hit on and Margaret in the bloopers in front of children, so we don't have time to really unpack the bloopers, but I highly recommend you watch them.

Does this do we know? Does this movie pass the back I think there might be like a few like stripping away all the context lines that pass, but a lot of the context of conversations that do happen between women or like between Lucy and her mom or Lucy and another character, I feel like they're almost always about either Santa Claus or maybe Jack Frost. Like there's a lot I think men. I honestly, I also forgot to

pay attention at all, so I do not know. But if I'm kind of just like going back through the scenes in my memory, it feels to me like a lot at least like the subtext is about a man, if if not explicitly about a man, I completely believe that. I mean, even if this movie does technically pass the backtel test, I don't deserve to. Okay, Okay, it doesn't. I've agreed with you. Even if it does, it's just like spiritually it definitely doesn't. Even if it does, it

somehow doesn't. Final ruling, I'm judge Reinhold. Wow, yeah, incredible. So yeah, let's say a no for this one and don't fact check us, please and thank you um. As far as the nipple scale zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism, I'll give this a half nipple for the few characters who do pose the question, including Abigail Breslin and Jack Frost, who are like, Hey, isn't it pretty fucked up that you gave up everything

in your life? And don't you wish you hadn't done that maybe? Or don't don't you feel kind of cheated? Or you know, something like that. So I appreciate that the question gets asked, but it seems like it's mostly asked to bully her. So I I it's there's so many asked with every almost good thing that happens. There's five an asterisks of like, but it was actually made too.

It was said to make her feel horrible about her life the start, like the first like ninety seconds of this film we're written by someone entirely different than the person who wrote the rest of it. Yes, I believe, I believe it. Like it's this is like even though there's only two credited writers, there were there were Make Make Yourself Seen other writers on the Santa Claus three. It doesn't seem like the It's consistently bad in three

different ways. It's like there had to have been other people involved that were like, they wrote one bad movie about Jack Frost, and then the other people wrote a different bad movie about Mrs Claus, and then they wrote a different bad movie about maybe like Laura and Neil, and then they just missed it, mashed it all together. And it's something we haven't talked about, and I really think we would be a mess if we didn't talk

about it. Is. Of course, of course, there's maybe the worst musical number in all of film in this movie, Oh my God, when Martin Short Yes and Jack Frost Santa north Pole. There's this Santa Claus show. It's just horrible. He does this riff on I'm leaving New York, New York, but it's like north Pole, North Pole instead of New York, New York. They don't even have a full fucking orchestra. I fast forwarded through it. I couldn't watch it. I

truly blocked that out. But you're totally right that happens. I think it could have been so good. It could have been a moment that almost saved the movie. You know, it really could have been beautiful. I don't like I watched this movie six hours ago. How am I like here not knowing that? This movie really does a number on your neurons? It really scrambles months. Are they bleed? Are your neurons bleeding? Jamie in my norouble? Did you see there? My ears are bleeding? I just have this

thing wrong about me. Where whatever Christmas movie I watch, I keep all of those memories forever, And even if I imagine them as pieces of paper that I throw into the fireplace, the ashes that come out, I see

the memories play out in them, you know, forever. Please say that motif is in Santa Claus for that dark in the Sta clause for and that the fireplace that you throw your memories into is the same fireplace in Santa Claus's bedroom, tim Allen's Mouth, tim Allen's Mouth fireplace and Judge Reinhold Frozen are two of the most cursed Christmas images of our John a ration right up there with the baby Grinch, and it's just and do we have what else? Is there anything else we need to

touch on? Oh? I was in the middle of my nipple rating, so yes, sorry, go ahead. I'm gonna give this a half nipple, even though it's more than it deserves. But I will give it to Ayisha Tyler and that, Yeah, that's the end. I'm gonna I can't give this any nipples. I want better for Ayisha Tyler. I want better for Laura. I don't remember where the actress's name is. I want better for Mrs Claws. I don't Unfortunately, I don't really care about Lucy. I want better writing for Lucy so

that I do care about her. I want David Krumholtz back. Is the most important thing is what How could you possibly think that this movie was going to succeed narratively without Bernard the Elf? It just would it would never happen. Zero nipples, um sexist, It's weird, and it's just a it's just a god awful movie. I hope I usuedd Tyler made a whole bunch of money because otherwise not worth it. Yeah, it's zero nips, what about you, Grace? How many nips am I able to give it? Uh?

Five is technically the maximum, but you know, get you know, speak your truth. I am going to give it four and half nips. And the reason and the reason is because Mrs Claus basically has a home birth and we we we don't really see that on film. You know, we don't really see that on film. And that's empowering, I think, and I think it shows women that that can be done. So yeah, I'm going to give Mrs Clause two nipples and then I'll give the other nipples

to the elves that made the home bird happen. And um, I just think that that's really inspiring. And I agree, and I have elucidated why I think this movie is misogynistic and horrible. Definitely what we need more home birth representation, and so for that, I think it does deserve four and a half nipples. I see what you're saying. I'm going to change my nipple raining to negative four to to balance out the average. I'm so sorry to do that to you, Grace, but I need the average to

be kept low. So what you have just ensured is going to happen is that Grace is going to take us to court again and and then we're going to be back here doing Santa Claus June next year. Darning, that's what's gonna happen. I've got my lawyer on the line right now. He's actually been my lawyer. I'm sorry, my lawyer. She she it's been listening to this entire podcast. Wow, well tell her we don't have a lawyer. We can't afford one, so you will be back. This sounds good, great,

Thank you someone for being here. This is my favorite tradition and now it's officially a tradition now it is. And we were maintaining the tradition of doing a Christmas movie trilogy with doing the first movie first, the third movie second, and the second movie third, because we are doing the same thing with a Christmas prince. So this is a time honored tradition. Um. Yes, Grace, thank you so much for being here. You're a delight. Where can

people check out your stuff? Follow you online, et cetera. So, I mean my big thing is at Grace G. Thomas on Twitter. Um and uh, and Grace's podcast is going to be so fucking good. Jamie is the first guest on the first episode and will be a guest very soon. Uh and we um. It's called compete. Let me tell I'll pitch this. Okay, everybody, it's called competitive literature. It's me and my co host Julie Greener or Julie g It's me and my co co it's competitive. It's called

competitive literature. Myself, Grace Thomas, and my co host Julie Greener. Each week have a guest who picks one of their favorite books that we have a week before the podcast to read it, and then on the cast, the guest judges who has the best opinions on the book UM and picks a winner. So the first episode that we're doing is on a series of Unfortunate Events. It was with Jamie. It's gonna be killer. It's coming out in January.

I'm super super excited for it. Um. We talked about if the authors are fucked up, we have the guests give a a little bit of a pop quiz. We uh go through the whole book. I'm super psyched. We're gonna have my fiancee's dad on it. Um, who's a cool weirdo talk about his favorite book, the favorite book of all dads nowadays, Sapiens by You've all Noah Harari. Um. Yeah, I hope you guys check that out. Um and just

follow me at Grace ge Thomas for more updates on that. Um. In addition to that, my KOFE is like kofi dot com slash Grace Thomas and I am launching a new monthly thing on there soon where I'll do one monthly video exclusive to people who are subscribing to that. So I think I'm gonna switch from Patreon a kofy soon and do that. Um. And yeah, I just check out my videos and whatnot, uh and subscribe to Competitive Literature soon when we release our trailer. And yeah, I just

keep talking and talking and talking. I have some books coming out next year, but none of them are announced, so you gotta follow me on Twitter com back all the foks. Yeah, it's pretty messed up. Talk to email my editor. Well, you got a lawyer and an editor. He's a really good guy. Actually, my editor is a very nice man. I have no problems with him. It's just how the production schedule works. He's not doing anything wrong. Amazing. Well, yes, check out all of Grace's stuff. You can follow us

on on Twitter and Instagram at Babolcast. You can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon. It's five dollars a month that gets you access to two bonus episodes every month. And because it's December, we are doing as our bonus episodes this month. Christmas Prince too, Yeah, and Princess switched to Switched again. K three Princesses a K three three many. Vanessa Hudgens is three events, yes, and this is her. This is I believe her first movie post cancelation. So

there's gonna be a lot to talk about. When do you remember when Vanessa Hudgings went live and said she had no regard for human life? That was this year and now we get to talk about it on the Matrion and that's where and that's where that will be. I think that was a pretty fun way for her to get canceled all around. I was just like, I guess that was just a blanket, like I don't care about anybody, goodbye, whoever lives and dives. I don't care

as long as my carnal need for pleasures. Where's the merch where's the merch that Well, speaking of merch, you can buy ours at the public dot com. Slash the Pectel cast and that's I mean happy Santa Claus with Grace Thomas episode Everybody You Earned It. Also hashtag Santa Grace and tell Disney yes what you feel. And the last thing I'll say is I wish I'd never become Santa Claus at all. Bye bye bye m hm.