The Princess and the Frog with Lexie Grace

I think that we've been recording a lot lately, and um, when we're recording more, I feel like the intros were just like, um, the show is starting. I hope that's okay with your permission. The show is starting. Um, but this is our Betel Cast is a feminist movie podcast that analyzes the role of female identifying characters in the famous movie It's True and what do we do Well? We use the Bechtel Test I ever heard of it?

Sometimes called I Don't Know Her, It's sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, and it's a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, who knows who we are now confirmed she has, but like she knows, she knows, she knows we exist and that step one maybe steps yes, yes, but Alison, if you eventually, you know, probably in when you get to this episode, you'll hear this invitation for

you to come on the show anytime. Her favorite movie is Groundhog Day, so there's I've just been like tapping all my sources to find her favorite movies Groundhot Day, so she'll hear that episode first. Yes we should. We did to cover that one, but like re upload it and be like, we know you're listening. Anyways, what's the Betel test? Jeez, who knows if he said that and

then we didn't know what it was. Um, two female identifying characters with names have to speak to each other about something other than a man for at least two lines of dialogue. That is our specific bar. Yes, so let's let's demonstrate. Let's do it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, Um do you? Oh no, wait, that wasn't going to pass. It's so hard to pass the backtel tests that passes. We did it. I was literally about to bring up the firefly's funeral and like that was a male phone. Yeah.

I just can't get over the fact that they killed the firefly. We're talking about the princess and the Frog today. Uh, shall we bring our guests in? Yes, let's do it. She's terrific. She's a wonderful comedian. She's so funny. It's Lexi Grace. We're so excited to have you. I'm glad to be here. I'm very excited. Yes, there's so much to talk about today, starting with Lexie. What's your relationship your history with this movie? So Princess and the Frog.

I actually saw it when it first came out, like Christmas Day two thousand and nine. Yeah, yeah, and I was in New York. I watched it with my mom. We we did two movies back to back, that in Sherlock Holmes and then well but yeah, I went and saw it like I saw it opening It was either opening week or like the second week. I think it was opening week because like I feel like, as a black woman, like it's really important to support because she

was like the first animated African American princess. But my favorite African American princess would definitely be uh Brandy, Yes, Oh my gosh, Brandy. Cinderella. Yes, that's that was like my formative Cinderella. She's so good. And then it's isn't it Whitney Houston is the Fairy Godmother. Oh, that's a special movie, special movie. And then and then I know Whoopie Goldberg and the Prince have like an Asian Son, which, yes, but that that movie was great. That's like the Rogers

and Hammerstein one too. Yeah, baby's got to see it. You've never seen it, it's so. But I have seen and this is not This is not a princess movie because I don't think was sort of oz is Dorothy is considered a princess, but like in the in the extended universe, she's a princess adjacent. I would say, I have seen the Ashanti and Queen Latifa Muppet Wizard of oz which is it's okay, No, it's great, It's okay, it's it's it's it's one of the better like Muppet adaptation,

I think. So, yeah, I love that movie. I love Ashanti. Yeah, but yeah, you have to see Brandy Cinerella. Okay, oh it's really people love it. But so you saw Princess

and the Frog in theaters. Awesome, So so did I. I also saw it as a double feature, and for some reason, I thought the other movie was Terminator Salvation, but I looked up the release date of that movie, and the timing doesn't line up because that movie did come out in oh nine, but it was in May, so that wouldn't have that doesn't So I don't know what the other movie was. But I did see The Princess and the Frog in theaters, and I hadn't rewatched

it until this week to prep for the episode. But I'm very excited to talk about it, Jamie, what about you, Sam sutt in theaters. Haven't seen it since I double featured it with Avatar, which so it was like that day. That day was a lot. That day was an absolute lot um, but it was because I remember, like we had tickets to Avatar. I think that we saw Avatar first and then saw Princess in the Frog, which is

a weird order to do that. And I remember liking it, but I wasn't watching it critically at all, but I'm like, oh, I like it. Diana is cool. Um, the songs are pretty good. Is that Oprah's voice? Yes? Um, that's what those are the thoughts I remember? Um, And then yeah, I hadn't revisited it in in a while, but we get a ton of requests for it and so it's

it's long overdue. I'm excited too, I mean, and it's like it's it was frustrating to rewatch because you like the elements of a movie I could like are there, and then just everything kind of agreed. Like when I watched it, like I was so excited for this, like this like African American princess, and then I was like, why does she have to do the most? Like she's got a clean she's got a cook she's like handling business. Everyone's like why are you working? So like it's like

why can't she just be like a regular princess? You know what I mean? Right right? And and she doesn't get to visibly be a black woman for seventy of the movie and why is this happening? Like every god? And then she's got like the worst prints out of a lot of them, because like most prints are like generals or they have like an army, or they've got some sort of wealth. He's like a broke for his like the Prince is like not dissimilar to like Lena

Dunham's character and girls. It just like start to like he's like I've been cut off. Now I'm going to go to the city and see what happens, because I'm like, I hate this parallel. This is horrible. It also reminded me of Eddie Murphy and coming to America. Yeah, that's a way better comparison. That's way more favorable, right, And in that movie, like we know why he's coming to America. In in Princess and the Frog, Navine is just like,

for some reason, I'm in New Orleans. Anyone's doing anything except you know why Tiana is doing things even though men are constantly trying to distract her from doing the clear set goal she has. Um everyone levels You're like, what is what are they doing? Yeah, everyone in the movie is just like telling Tiana, They're like why are

you working so hard? Like why are you? And it's not like she's working so hard that it's like detrimental, because like I could understand, like she's working hard and she's like missing like you know, birthdays and like her you know, her dad's funeral or something like that. But she seems to clearly have like a good work life balance right right, Like it's she's working towards a clear goal.

Like that element of the story, You're like they're making her do the most, but we know what she wants and she's like capable and working really hard and she's going to achieve your goal. And then they're like, well, you can't achieve your goal until you're you get a man a frogman involved, and you're just like, really, in two thousand nine, we're still but we're still on that, are still on that frustrating and also like, I mean, there's so many issues with the shadow Man that Will

will talk about. But just like story wise, he didn't say, like at first, you're just like he's just doing evil Ship because and then he says if he almost exact halfway mark of the movie, he finally reveals what his motive is. You're like, why is this coming up? An hour into the movie. He's like, oh, yeah, you know how I've been doing all this evil ship for an hour? Actually I just remembered it's for I hate John Goodman. And you're like, what, Like it just is a mess?

Is a mess? Well? Should I try to describe the plot? Yeah? In the recap, Yeah, we'll talk about what's there. Okay, So we meet Tiana as a young girl. The year is nineteen thirteen, and I know this because someone is holding a newspaper that said Wilson just elected, And I looked up what year Woodrow Wilson was elected in and it was so I feel like they were trying to tell us it was the nineteen oh But fast forward later. Yeah, when she when she's um, I think when we see

Tiana as an adult, she's I think nineteen years old. Damn, he's really counting on. You know. When Woodrow Wilson was elected in like a very like throwaway visual, children will be like, I guess Woodrow Wilson he was elected in nineteen thirteen, So Titanic has been sunk for one year. When the story the nation is in distress and we're in New York, New Orleans is how you say it. I don't know New Orleans. It's not how you say it. And she loves cooking. It's her dream to open up

a restaurant with her father. Her mother is a seamstress who makes dresses for this rich white girl, Charlotte, and Tiana's mom also reads the Frog Prince to the girls. Cut to Tiana as a young woman working two jobs waiting tables. She's saving up money for this restaurant. She sings the best song in the movie. I like almost there a lot, that's a fun that's the that's the

banger for me. And this one, I like the song at the very beginning, and I don't remember how it goes, but it's something like there's a studio in the south end. Oh yeah, that's like they're like poor provincial town. Yes exactly, They're like, this is where we are. And that's so she's saving up money for her restaurant. Her father has since passed away. Um, so in this movie we have a dead parent, but it's a dead father instead of

a dead mother. They really galaxy brained this one too, because they're like, Okay, we're going to subvert the narrative by killing her father instead of her mother. But still, somehow her father and her relationship with her father is the most. She's like stam, like every five seconds, it's like,

my dad, why did she even kill him? Why? If he's going to be so looming over the story and yeah, sneaky, Like even when the mom comes over, she brings like it looks like a new pot and like it's sorry, I'm jumping ahead, and she's like, oh, it's dad's pots. And then her mom has the most regressive you and oh yeah, there's a whole thematic thing that I want to talk about. But there I really felt like they

pulled one over on us with like that. No, we killed the dad this time, but don't worry, he's still the most important parent. Okay. So then we meet Prince Navin of Maldonia, which is a fictional country which I'm guessing is right now Genovia and Aldovia. It's right between Genovia and Aldovia, as mal Dona, Maldonia is not the

Prince Levin is from. Yes, he shows up to town and Charlotte is trying to funk him, so she hires Tianna to make a bunch of Beignet's for a ball that she's throwing I guess in like Prince Novine's honor or she's inviting him to the ball or something. I

don't know, but it's happening that night. And with the money that Charlotte gives Tiana to make all these bennets, her horny beignets just like Jesus, She's definitely Charlotte is definitely like Blanch from Golden Girls, person like like younger, like just chaotic, horny. I found that character to be so profoundly annoying. Well again, I feel like that was Disney trying to make commentary. I hate when Disney tries

to comment on their own work. It just always comes off really annoying, where they're like, Oh, in a normal Disney movie, she would be the princess, but now she's a stupid jackass. You're like, that's not the direction with that's why, right. But anyway, so with this money, Tiana now has enough money too. I guess put a down payment on the building that she wants to turn into her Restaurant's huge, huge, It's like a million square feet.

I don't know how square footage works. Meanwhile, this creepy man, the shadow Man, Dr Facilier, is like, hey, Prince Navine, you're broke and you're here in town to marry a rich girl. Let me help you with that. And at first I thought he was there as like Mr. Exposition, but then he gets to do stuff, but he does. Like his first five lines are like, as we all know you are a prince and you are here now, but you don't have any money, Well what should you do?

I'm like, oh my god? And also the prince right away. It's like you're a fat man, right. Oh yeah, just like fashion fashion fact. Right, And that character is I guess Prince Navine's valet or something, Lawrence. So Dr Fasilier goes to Lawrence and he's like, hey, you're tired of being pushed around by all these rich people, right, let me help you with that, And then Navine and Lawrence kind of separately make a deal with the devil quote unquote.

Then it's the night of the ball and Charlotte is dancing with Prince Navine and Tiana learns that her offer for the restaurant that she put in what has been outbid and unless she comes up with the money kind of right away, the place will not be hers. Also, the guys who are the realtors are dressed up as a horse. Yes, I did laugh at that. There are a few things I'm like, all right. What I like is they retracted their offer right after like her and her mom had like cleaned the place. Yeah, I guess

she had the keys. Yeah, And I think they're like, well, it's cleaner now, so it's more valuables. Sell it for more money. That's not with with that, Tiana sings when she's cleaning stuff. I mean, I hate that she has to be clean while she sings it. But that has a pretty good song too. Yeah, it's not not almost there, so it's almost there. That is almost there. Okay, yes, that is almost there. And there's so many there's too

many songs. There's a lot of songs. There's a lot of songs, and I would say most of them are not good. Went there almost their slaps, not a good villain song, not a just mess. Yeah. Anyway, So Tiana, learning that her her bid has been outbid, causes a big spill and she gets food all over her. So Charlotte loans her one of her fantasy dresses, and Tiana is lamenting about losing her opportunity to own the restaurant. And suddenly there's a frog right there, and that frog

can talk because he's Prince Navine. So we're like, wait a minute, who's that guy who looks like Prince Navine dancing with Charlotte downstairs? What? Anyway? So the frog is like, hey, Tianna, please kiss me, and if you do, I will give you money for the restaurant. Because he was like, this is fine, this is fine, and he was hurt. It seems like a fair offer. He wants her to kiss him because because she's dressed up in this fancy gown, he thinks that she's a princess, and I will break them.

I mean, he of all people, should know right that not everyone he's ever met who's wearing a dress is related to him, like or his royalty in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there has ever been any royal family based like there are no monarchies, there's any time. Thank you so much. I just wanted to make sure. What if I was like,

actually there is a king? How did you do? We've got we've got I mean, now that we've got Megan, maybe she's gonna I seem she hates being royalty, but maybe she'll bring it over here and be like, hey, for your consideration, for it's about time. And at this point we're like, yeah, sure, I mean, our presidency isn't really working out. Why there's well switched to maybe better than right anyway, So um the frog is like, hey, Tiana, let's kiss and she's like, okay, fine, if you're going

to help me get my restaurant, i'll do it. But when she kisses him, he stays a frog, and Tiana also turns into a another frog. This is one of the well I have things to say about this. Later they're just like, okay, magic is supposed to work for distey princesses. I hate this subversion to where they're like, you know, our first black and says we're gonna get the magic to fuck her over here. Like why, I

don't know. I'm just supposed to help. Okay. So now they're both frogs and they have to and everyone's like frogs. So they have to run away and escape this party, and then they fly away with some balloons into the swamp. Then we find out that Lawrence the Valet or valet is who is occupying Navine's body, and Navine was turned into the frog. This was all done by Dr Facilier, who I think just around this time is about to tell you why he's doing everything. Yeah, he for the

first half of the movie. You're just like chaos. I guess it's just his outfit. He has to be mean like the boy, so I guess. So he doesn't. He wants to be rich, he wants to control the town, and so he needs to This is again like one of those I mean, and this happens with Disney Villains a lot, but like the things he's doing to accomplish

his goals are so round. Yeah, you're just like why would this be because he says like, I can't conjure anything for myself, so I guess he was waiting for this opportunity, even though it seems like he could have killed Popa at any point, right right, Like it seems like he always I got confused, especially in the back half of this movie. There's so many like talismans and magic.

There's multiple magical items introduced to like supplement plant that doesn't make sense where I lost track of the items. I was like, oh, there's the thing where you got to get the frog blood. Then there's like the voodoo doll of John Goodman, and then there's like a necklace, and then you're like, there's too many things going on, and there's a whole conversation that will have about any

portrayal of that's the whole thing. But yeah, I was losing track of all the different like the various magical items that they're like, oh, well this is happening because frog blood, and you're like, what but what his plan was. He he wants like money and control of New Orleans, and so he has to kill John Goodman. Is that because he will inherit the He's doing like a sixty forty split with Lawrence, who will inherit the money from Charlotte once her father has died, and it could happen

to a long the money. Yeah, because women don't have any right. So he's like, as soon as she gets married, He's like, okay, women can just about now, so I feel pretty comfortable, like this will work out in my favorite oh yeah. And then also like also too, it's weird because like there's no, like you said, in his plan, there's no like afterthought, like okay, like after they kill him, like then what like what will they do in Charlotte? Yes, Like I feel like it's assumed to turn her into

Oh yeah, I guess that they could do that. I don't, I don't know what. Like, it is a very convoluted plan, for sure, and to the point where he even like towards the end, when the plan starts to funk up, he's like singing about how the plant is convoluted. He's like, well, this is a small part of a much larger plan. You're like, yeah, we know they're hard to be a

more direct way, right, but alas um. So then we cut back to the frogs in the swamp and they find out that they can talk to all animals, but most of the animals want to eat them, so they have to get away from all these like alligators and stuff. But then they meet this friendly trumpet playing alligator, Lewis, and he tells them about Mama Odie, who is a who who does voodoo. She's a plot which and he's like, well, maybe she can turn you back into humans. So they

embark on this quest to find Mama Odie. Meanwhile, Lawrence is trying to marry Charlotte. So there's the whole like Lawrence as Navine is trying to right and then did that have to be there? Like I feel like you can kind of do away with a part of that, Like if you take Lawrence out, and then it's just like Prince Navine is missing. I feel like you kind of accomplished the same thing with a way less convoluted still in this plot, but that's just you know, who

am I who are stupid? That's not true. But they've hit a snag because the talisman that contains Navine's blood is running out. So um dr Faciliate calls upon his friends from the other side, which are like these shadow

demons to go find Frog Navine. Um So, back in the swamp, they made this Cajun fly named Ray who helps lead them to Mama ODIs and they get there and Mama Odie is like, well, if Charlotte kisses Frog Navine before midnight because she's technically a princess before midnight because her father was voted King of Marty, and yeah, like where who controls the magic that it would work, don't. I also like that her gumbo pot is like a crystal ball. Wait, You're just like wait, could it always

do that? And then like for a second when they had the tibat, like when she puts the Tabasco sauce in there, I was like, wait a minute, but then I was like, that's kind of accurate though, sauce um. But anyway, so if all this manages to happen, then both Navine and Tiana as frogs will turn back into humans. But meanwhile, Navine is to use an expression that the kids are saying, he's catching some fields for Tiana, right, and he's about to tell her that he loves her

and then also proposed to her. Question which is another thing that's very treated as like, of course, because the second that Charlotte meets Prince Navine, who's actually the other guy, she's they dance once and she's just like, I'm ready to get married, right, which is like a weird like movie trying to have it both ways, where it's like they're subscribing to the Cinderella logic of like we met, we're getting married, but it's also trying to be modern

and it's like kind of failing at both right. But before Frog Navine can express his feelings to Tiana, he gets captured by the shadow creatures and they steal more of his blood so that Lawrence can turn back into Navine so that he can get married to Charlotte during the Mardi Gras parade, and then Frog Tianna sees them like about to get married, and she thinks it's the real Navine and she's like, no, that's my boyfriend, because I guess she also loves him. Question Mark, right, when

do we know? Well, Caitlyn, of course she loves him. He legs her for most of the movie that subscribing

by the rules of the game. And then Ray the Firefly helps Frog ven he escapes, and they steal the magic talisman that's holding the blood and then Ray gives it to Frog Tianna, who smashes it and Dr Facilier is like no, and then all the shadow demons kill him, but not before he squishes Ray the Firefly and kills him, and I guess we're supposed to be sad about that, and I was just like, I don't care about this character.

But they throw the whole funeral for it. But how wild is it that they commit to killing the Firefly so shocked? That's like ifs Flounder got shocked. You're like, that doesn't happen to the fun sidekick? Right? There? Is there any precedent on which I mean, it's like in Disney Princess movies. Any in Disney beside Bambi's mom, who wasn't that who didn't feel that role? Like parents die but but or are already did? But yeah, kicks don't die. Like I was, I forgot about that and I was shocked.

I was like, oh my god. And then I was like, well, something's gonna happen with the magic. He's gonna come back to life. But then they're like, no, he's a star. Now, he's a star. He actually and they throw a whole funeral for him, and you're like, first of all, I don't care about this character. Seven of all, it's just I was so shocked that they It's like if, yeah, if if Sebastian had actually been like caught by the chef and right, and they're like, he's happier now, Like, no,

he's not. He's not. There's gonna he's now a shell on the island. Oh my god. And then it also, I mean this it's I know it's a cartoon, but the when when when the bug does, You're like, oh no, and then it starts raining. I'm like, realistically, this Bug's corps would be like like like the corps would not have survived at the funeral, like bug when you when I when a dead bug is rained on, it just turns to goop. Also, like like Danna just like crushed

his dreams before he died. She was like, it's a star, it's not even a real thing. But again, he's not really an important character arguably didn't need to be. Yeah, but who is Raymond? I didn't understand whatever shrug sug he dies. So then frog Novine is like, Okay, Charlotte, it's almost midnight, Please kiss me so that Tiana and I can turn back into humans. And you have to make sure you give Tiana the money for her restaurant, which arguably Charlotte should have done at the very beginning.

But anyway, she kisses him, but it doesn't work. They don't turn back into humans. So then, in the wildest plot twist of all, Tiana and Levine decided to just stay frogs and then get married and gives up on her dreams. So wasn't So it's so funny because she's so hard working throughout the whole movie that for her to be like, yeah, I think this is just how it's going to be now trays her entirely. They're like she's like this could work, and then you're like, oh no,

Like what about Oprah, where's my daughter? Like open? No one ever is is no, we never get to open to be like where's Tianna? Where she go? No one's asking where she is because Tiana still lives at home. Yeah no, she Oprah is missing her? Like but you know, she works eight ships of a job, you know, so she's probably like there, oh my god, like I just but like, you know, if this were like any lot like, she would have hopped on over to Oprah and then

like hell right, I think for something. Right, But that's how little like the movie values their relationship. Also, her frog wedding, there's all these animals from the forest and it's like, you don't know, all these animals all been friends with like three animals, and one of them died after you yelled at it like that. Oh boy, it's I still kick it over that they killed the bug they killed. They get married as frogs, but here here's

the okay, off a cliff there. It's just like I'm just think of all the different ways you could murder Disney sidekicks. Just I can't handle it, Okay. So then they get married as frogs, which Mama Odie officiates the wedding. But because they get married, and because Navine is a prince, that makes Tiana a princess. So when he kisses her at their wedding, he's kissing a princess, which is the

thing that needed to break the spell. And that's what turns them back into humans, so other humans standing in the middle of a swamp kissing, and it's a his wife based plot twist at the end too, because they also have to explain it to the audience because you're like what uh, and like, well, you did kiss a princess because when I became your wife, I became a princess. So now I'm a princess. You kissed me and now we're hot again, and everyone's just like yay. And then

where did they get the money? Is it from? You see his parents? For two seconds, I'm like, I guess maybe they're cool now. And then she but I don't think they get the money. I think they have an alligator that intimidates the bankers, Like yeah, she uses the money that she had earned through all of her serving jobs, and so they just but what about the person that outbid her? He's dead. I don't know. It was the

firefly firefly hup. Hum. Fortunately he was killed, and so that was just just I mean, so many threads are left. She gives up at the end and then she's like, now that I'm your wife, I can achieve my dreams. You're like a cool message that pissed me off. So much. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll get really a deep dive into the discussion gritty and we're back. Where should we start, Lexie? Where do you want to start?

Where should we? But I mean, there's so much. Well, let's first talk about how in the opening they had the six year old feed like the entire Yes, she fed everybody on her block and she was like six years old, and that was like, I mean, this movie is.

I tried to do as thorough as I could of a context corner for this because it's like I think it's a really bizarre because Disney is so determined to never make a meaningful comment on anything, it is weird to me that they chose to set this movie in a very specific place and time like Jim Crow era

Jim Mouth just sanitize it to death. It also like upset me that, like it also is like a weird class thing, like like it's it's supposed to be a fantasy, Like it's like a it's a princess story, like there shouldn't be Like it felt like oh, there's like everybody that was bad was like kind of like they were like mostly white except for the voodoo man, and then there was like very classism where it was like rich white people and then poor black people, and then we

only had like Navid who I don't know exactly. He's from Maldonia. He's like ethnically ambiguous, yes, but it just I don't know. It also bugged me. This is where I had like the biggest crocs with the movie is like she works so hard, and like everybody is always pooping on her working hard, right, I mean, it's it's confused because I feel like Tiana is so she lives in this non existent new or lends where Jim crow Law has never happened. Uh, rich white people are just like, whoops,

we forgot to Like it's it's like that. I feel like that is like a very common thread in Disney movies when they're trying to avoid discussing systemic racism in any way. They're like, oh, well, the rich white people are kind of goofy. They're like a little bit dumb, but they're nice, but they're they're just kind of like

they didn't they didn't think of it. Um. It's just like it's such a bizarre decision to set this in the Jim Grows South because it's like, first of all, like Charlotte could not have legally married Prince Navie, like interracial marriage is not legal at this time. There's a lot written on how like Tiana and Charlotte being able to be friends that share clothes like that would have been very unlikely, and just the white people in this story wouldn't have been like, oh, we're goofy, like they

would have been enforcing systemic racism. But but in this like no one challenges the class system set up in this movie, no one challenges the racial politics of this world. Everyone's kind of friends, but all the people who are poor just happened to be black, Like it's the choices that were made to contextualize, like the setting and the

time of this story are very bizarre. Like the fact that this is like the first black Disney princess is that's important representation that means a lot to a lot of people. And the character, at least at the beginning, is like a good character, Like she has more agency than most Disney princesses do. She has a dream that doesn't involve getting married, like she she has more from

the jump than a lot of Disney princesses do. But then it's just like sold out so through and then to take all that and then like yeah, put it in this bizarrow the fantasy world. Does I think the first black Disney Prince as a huge disservice And then like you already said, like she we don't even see her as a black woman from most of the movie,

which doesn't. Yeah, yeah, they had to Disney. I was I was reading that they had to change it because originally they had it named the Frog Princess and so there was like a lot of backlash of that. And then they also tried to name her Maddie, but it came to it sounded too close to Mammy. And then she also was a maid at some point, like I think to like Charlotte's family. Yes, yeah, that was like the original plant. I mean, it will not surprise anyone

that this movie was directed by Whiteman. There is a credited black writer on the movie, along with two white writers. The music was somehow written by like it's a movie that takes place in New Orleans and Randy Newman wrote the music. Kid can't figure it can't crack that one. Uh, And it's just when you see the production team that was behind this movie. It's very easy to understand. Of course they funked it up. It also was funny, like as like a weird side note, the people that wrote

this movie actually also wrote Aladdin. And it's interesting because I feel like the shadow Man, like his intro kind of sounded like the Genie is a little bit, and then I feel like they were did it feel like visually they were referencing the Genie song at the end of the shadow Man song where it's like, you know, at the end, like the Genie like there's all these other chid just popping up and then he's in the center, and it just felt really similar. No, it definitely did.

And also the other thing that kind of like was annoying as like, is that like she kept having this dream and like even when she raised the money and it was like, oh, you finally raise the money for your dream, her mom was like, well what about a man? Like, oh yeah, okay, let me break this down because I was like, what is this. So there's a recurring theme throughout the whole movie, basically saying like all you need

is love to quote the famous song. So it starts with Tiana's mom, whose name we do learn you, Dora, she's like your dad never you know, lived out to see his dream to have the restaurant, but that didn't matter because he had love in his life. So and that's and that's what I went for you, Tiana, to meet your prince charming and dance off into your happily ever after. And then Tiana is like, well, I don't have time for dancing, and then you doors like, but

I want grandchildren. So it's like this theme is established that like having hopes and dreams is kind of stupid, especially if they relate to your career and are not really necessary as long as you have love in your life.

And this is again, I think, like a bizarre choice to ignore the time period so thoroughly, because it's like I feel like maybe it's a more nuanced conversation if her mother is saying basically like these opportunities aren't afforded to women, much less to black women who are from a poor background, Like I feel like that is more

like there's an opportunity to make commentary. But then she just comes off sounding sexist because this world, the world of this movie is such a that you like sucking void of messing nous that She's just like, you can't open a restaurant, not because of all this oppression, it's because I want a grandkid now. And then this goes double down on a little later when the frogs reach Mama Odi and she sings this whole song about like who cares about what you want? It's it's about digging

a little deeper and figuring out what you need. And the implication here, at least as far as I could tell, was what you need is romantic love. Ye. Also, by the way, when she kept saying dig deeper, I was like, is she shanty? Like? Am I supposed to squat? Like

from insanity? It's just like it It is just like one of the first Disney I'm trying to think of if prior to Tiana, like were there Disney princesses that really had dreams outside of romantic love, Like like it's like you look at Mulan, but like Mulan like everyone else is like you're a badass, like that's really cool, like your your kick butt, whereas her everyone's like you're a killed joy. Tiana got that scene with her friends at the beginning where they're like, are you gonna come

out dancing? She's like, no, I work seventeen jobs. And they're like, Tiana is so awful. I can't believe how hard she works to open up business, and like this this doesn't happen. This is like absurd, and it happens like literally all the time throughout the whole movie. Are like why are you working? Including Navina, And then I love that Navina is like, well, you know, I'll take jobs so that you can get your restaurant. It's like,

well she's doing good raising the money on her own. Yeah, she's like such an I mean, and and it's not lost on us either that like she has to work ten times harder than any Disney princess has ever had to for anything. Like I mean, Cinderella technically had a job sort of, I guess, but like, but you know, like Tiana is under way more pressure and she's made fun of for it, and you're just like this, you can't do both. You can't do you know. One is like people should be hiring how hard she get it.

Everyone's just like you fucking idiot with your dumbass dreams. I mean, her having to work so hard to get access to anything is one of the only things that lines up with the world that they are putting you in, but then everyone's reaction to it takes place in nowhere land. Yeah, just like in the Disney Void. It's so frustrating because it's it is. I mean, I am at least glad that you get to see that like determined side of

Tiana at the beginning. No, for sure, I like I am glad that, Like I feel like I have a complicated relationship because I do like that she is a hard worker and she does have goals, but I don't

like that she was like goal shame throughout the whole movie. Yeah, it's and the fact that, like the movie ends with her opening up the restaurant after all, and she does it with money that she earned waiting tables and not that like Navine was like, here are my riches to give to you, Like she worked hard for it and she earned what she got. And then it does seem like she's the breadwinner of their relationship because she's the one who's like running this restaurant and Navine's parents had

cut him off. But then they're also at the wedding in they're life hi, and you're like money again, probably a wedding gift, but before that, um To kind of continue on this theme of like dreams are pretty silly and love is what you need. When Dr Facilier is like showing Tiana what she could have and he could grant her this wish and he says something or she's like, you know, my father never had what he wanted, but he had what he needed. He had love. And it's

like so another like doubling down on this theme. So basically, like Tiana learns the lesson that all you need is romantic love in your life. And then at the end, Navine is like, well, I have to marry Charlotte. It's the only way for you to get your dream Tiana, and she's like, well, my dream wouldn't be complete without you in it. And it's like since when like you met him earlier today, that's I mean, then that's like

the Disney Princess. But it is like of all the places that Disney tries to subvert in this movie that you're like, why would you do that, that's the one place that they don't subvert from like we met and now we're in love. It's funny. Out of all the Disney princesses, I felt like this was like the most heavy handed about like money is bad. I love when Disney says money is bad and you're like, I don't know,

I'm going to go to Star wars Land. What I mean, the message of this movie is so convolated because it's like, I mean, there's been a lot, a lot, a lot written on the impact of this movie, how it's aged, even in the ten years it's been released, and it is like, I mean, there's more to be said about the production background of this movie where I mean John Lasseter was at the head of this production, which that

that fact doesn't age well. Um and and he hired a bunch of like legacy Disney white guys to come in and right and craft this movie because New Orleans

was his favorite city. But you're just like, uh, there's no like it seems like very little research was done, very little consideration was done because there was no one in the room too, Like they wouldn't allow anyone in the room who would say something when this movie came out, So two thou same year that Barack Obama has taken office, and there were a lot of movies that came out like shortly after Obama is elected that sort of are touting this like color blind world and that like this

movie very much subscribes to that of like, well, now that we have a like our first non white president, racism is fixed and no one like the the the legacy of racism doesn't affect this country any at all anymore.

And also there was a lot of upset when this movie was announced as taking place in New Orleans because while especially while it was in production and still in two thousand nine, New Orleans itself had been so thoroughly affected by Hurricane Katrina that it like forced like hundreds of thousands of black residents out, And I was like,

and now we're gonna we solved racism in the nine twenties. Here, It's just like there's a lot of yeah, every like almost everything about the production of this movie is a is a very bad look. Yeah, for sure, some of the sequences are pretty though. Can we talk a little bit more about the love story component of it? So we already kind of hinted at this, but this is another example of a love story that starts with a

man negging and undermining a woman. Uh, he first says like, oh, I thought you were a princess but you're just a waitress. Then he calls her a kill joy, a stick in the mud who doesn't know how to have fun, and then moments later they are suddenly in love. Like I don't know where this comes from. He's also like the slimiest dude. And I'm not talking about like the frog

trap the mucus. The mucus plot point. I was like, are you serious or at the Antiana is like, actually it's Lucus, Like what, yeah, yeah, he's actually he's such an asshole for sure. And it's interesting too, like throughout the movie, like in regards to him, they keep talking about like women are going to hold you down, like when he's at the shadow Man the shadow Man is like he's like, oh, if you get a wife, you won't be able to live your life or something like that.

It's it's frustrated because it's like his whole character indicates to young people watching the movie that you can have all the ambition in the world, you can get seven percent of the way there, but you still need a man with resources negging you to achieve anything. And then another thing is that when Navine mistakes Tiana for being a princess, she clears it up right away, and she's like, no,

I'm not a princess. I'm a waitress. If the genders had been swapped and it was the woman mistaking the man for being a prince, I feel like it almost certainly would have been a story about him lying to her for the whole movie and being like, yes, I am my prince who's also a frog um. And I'm not saying that, like all men are liars, and I'm not saying that women never lie, but so many movies are about a man lying to a woman and not

coming clean until the very end. So I guess I liked that, you know, Tiana was like, no, I'm not the person you think I am. Tiana is she's the best. She's honest, and she's nice and she works hard. And also there's a joke where it's implied that frog Navine tries to have sex with frog Tianna when they're like hiding in the stump from the alligators. He's like, well, we could get cozy, and then she's like get away from me, and it's like you're trying to funk when

you're a frog. It just I feel like there's so many like you could do a drinking game about all the times he's mentioned women in the thing where he's like, oh, I've dated thousands of girls, and there's a boy. He has a boy, I mean, and and a lot of a lot of Disney princess I mean, at least he has. He has more of a personality than many Disney princes do, but um, his personaliz is bad so that I also

don't even know. Like it's interesting because I feel like in the past whatever twenty years, Disney princess have been imbued with personality more and more frequently, which is good in one way, but in another way, you're like, well, what if we give the you know, princess more personality and more things to do instead of being like, we have to know this man's interior life. Like I don't, I don't know. I don't feel any particular way about it.

But it is interesting. Also there was like like you said, like I don't understand why she fell in love with him, Like there was they didn't have he like ja, she seemed like okay about jazz, Like she didn't seem obsessed, she wasn't like super into yeah yeah, and then she like taught him how to like and then she was like, now I love him. It's well, they comes out of nowhere.

I feel like where they tried to set that up and it just doesn't work, and it comes off a little like is at the beginning when she's serving Charlotte and Big Daddy also Big Daddy Jesus where she says, like, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. So I feel like we're supposed to connect the dots of like when she cooks for him because woman, she realizes that she loves him. Right, That didn't track at all.

I don't follow the logic there. Also, did you catch the part where when he's trying to propose to her, I guess while they're still frogs, He says, you could not be more different. You're practically one of the guys A k A. You're not like the other girls, says it, and she's like, according to this movie, that's she is not like because she's the girls hate her or are like lobotomized like they did to Charlotte. God, everyone has just done a disservice. Yeah, um, we got to take

another quick break, but we'll come right back. Where shall we go from here? Oh? Let me see. Um, well, shall we talk about the representation of voodoo in the film. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. So I did a little bit of research.

I found a piece from the Huffington's post entitled great Source entitled what is Voodoo Understanding a Misunderstood Religion by samya Aria hass I probably mispronounced most of that, but she is a writer and also a priestess of both Hinduism and Voodoo, which, um, the preferred spelling of voodoo is v O d o you for just anyone who's curious. The quotes that I will share from this piece only really scratched the surface of what there is to know

about the Voodoo religion. But I do have a few quotes that I found to be the most relevant to our discussion. Starting with quote, Voodoo isn't accurately portrayed in most movies, TV shows, and books. Voodoo isn't a cult, black magic, or devil worship. People who practice voodoo are not witch doctors, sorcerers, or occultists. Voodoo isn't a practice intended to hurt or control others. Most voodooists have never seen a voodoo doll, unless, like you, they saw it

in a movie, Voodoo isn't morbid or violent end quote. Um. So the reason all this is relevant is because the character of Dr Facilier is framed as being I don't even know if he's like a voodoo I don't know exactly, but he participates in this Hollywood Disney version of voodoo. Yes, And interestingly, I feel like they try to contextualize their

interpretation of voodoo. They also make it directly correlate to Christianity by indicating that there's something having to do with the devil and like demonic experience, which is not even a part of this, but they I feel like Disney almost makes the assumption like we're going to have to talk to people on a Christian level, so we have to connect these two things that are not related. Right.

The way that voodoo is depicted in this movie and many others is that it's like this scary CULTI mystical, but in like a nefarious mysticism way, And that's not what it is. I've got another few quotes from this author. Quote, racism clouds our view of voodoo. It is rooted in slavery and intricately connected to this hemisphere's political and social evolution. Voodoo was first practiced in America and the Caribbean by slaves of African descent, whose culture was both feared and ridiculed.

Slaves were not considered fully human, their religion was dismissed as superstition, their priests were denigrated as witch doctors, their gods and spirits were denounced as evil end quote um, which explains a lot of why voodoo is depicted the way it is in media, and it has everything to

do with racism. Believe it or not. Go figure Uh yeah, I I did a little research on this as well, and it basically does very clearly boils down to racism, specifically a very American kind of racism that's very specific to this region um where Louisiana. Voodoo is something that's very commonly cited. And it's like there's been from what I can tell, and if any listeners are out there that have seen a positive, measured depiction of voodoo in

popular culture, it doesn't seem like it's happened. And there's also been. There was a whole season of American Horror Story. I don't watch that show, but there's a lot written on how there was an entire season that hinged on this very racist view of Louisiana voodoo um and what

it boils down to is um. I think we've had similar conversations about Disney villains in this regard, where a lot of Disney villains are coded women in stem with women with power and this is kind of an an analog for black people with power and making it as villainous and threatening as possible. Uh So, it's it's not only like a very specific type of racism that has never really been challenged in popular media yet, but it

also like fits right into it. It's like, just based on Disney's history, it makes a lot of sense that they would go for this because that's how they treat like some of their white of Just like, how can we make power that isn't big daddy like the big daddies of the world. How can we make it threatening and evil and villainous? And Yeah, that's a very interesting point because like even on the flip side, like you

have Mama Odie and she's still like very cartoonish. We don't actually see like none of her magic actually helps. It's kind of just like, yeah, it's just like good luck kids, Dig deep. That was the closest I could get to be. I mean, I'm like, well, I guess that there is an example of a black character with magic who is using it for good. It's still completely misunderstands everything, but at least it isn't painting the company. But then it's like, yeah, you're right, she doesn't do

she doesn't really her magic doesn't work. Yeah, and she's also like not like she she's kind of senile. Yeah, they make her out. Does not seem super like competent, I guess, and not particularly I mean clearly not particularly good at what she does, because what she does doesn't really affect the plot until the end, where it suddenly does. She's just like, uh, just fucking fall in love and then you'll get everything you want. High magic is the

magic of a head rolla. Just like that's not a thing. Yeah. So so it is complete misunderstanding. It could have been her song could have been like shared do you believe? Oh it's it's so it's so frustrating, and I mean, like Disney has never set something in the American South and had it gone well, ever, like there there's also a lot written about this movie comparing it, I mean with less egregiousness, but still with some of the same

themes that people are very critical of. Uh In Song of the South, which is like the only Disney movie that's ever been truly buried, and there's actually past guest of the show Carein a Longworth did a great um I think like five or six part series on like the history and the legacy of that movie on her

podcast you must remember this. It's really good, but basically because most of us haven't really seen that movie, and with good reason, that takes place in the American South and has the similar vibe that we have with Tiana's family and Charlotte's family, where it's like, yes, the white people are very much in control, the black people in the story are mostly working for them, but there's no

problem here. Everything's fine. And so a lot of writers at the time of this movie's released interpreted this, I think pretty correctly as an updated version of this world that never had like like the most Disney approach to racism, and they're like, but it didn't really happen, like because like that relationship, especially between Tiana and Charlotte, that dynamic is so bizarre because they seem to be pretty good friends. But like Charlotte seems to be completely blissfully ignorant of

any of Tiana's struggles. And then she also seems to treat Tiana as like someone who works for her and serves her rather than like a friend in in an equal like Tiana wasn't even invited to the ball as a guest. Like, yeah, also, can we just quickly sorry side, can we just talk about this scene when she gives Tiana the dress and she she fixes her girls and like puts them up. And I was like Disney usually never acknowledges like they might have, but never like she was.

Just every Disney princess has like a uni boob. They're like, this is just a feminine area. That is true. Their their friendship is I mean, outside of the historical context we've already discussed, it's a bummer because it's like they seem to be very close friends, but really yeah, like Tiana is very attentive to Charlotte's needs. Charlotte does things

for Tiana, but really only when it serves herself. Um. And I also think that Charlotte's character is kind of very like Mired in Tropes as well, where it's like kind of this failed attempt for Disney to comment on itself, I think by doubling down on like at misogynist tropes of like all she wants is marriage. Look at how stupid she is. This is all she cares about, and

like that doesn't help anything either. Also, wasn't it so gross in the end when Charlotte is like, I didn't know Prince Navide had a brother and it's six year old, and she goes, she goes, well, I waited, you know, for one Prince, I could wait for I'm not quoting it directly, but she's like, I can't wait for you to be legal so I can have sex with you. Like this gives in the first grade there, that was

that was getting some real Jacob from Twilight vibes. She printed on, Yeah, that was the only thing in the movie that I mean, well that's not true. A lot of things in this movie that you're like no, but like the only thing that I was like, this is just this is bald face like madness, um, other than killing the killing the bug and sending the bug to

Star Heaven. So so, I mean, I I don't really have much to say about Charlotte outside of like it seemed like they were trying to make a commentary on the criticisms of past Disney princesses of like why do they want to be in love so bad? Why don't they have any dreams outside of this? And instead they just doubled down on it and made a mockery of it.

And what purpose did that serve? It didn't serve any narrative purpose, Like they just were like women her, especially because it's like her goal that she's friend was having is like she just wants to marry a rich a prince. She's already rich. She just wants I guess, the status of being a princess. But like boiled down, it's like she just wants to be married, and that's seen as something that's like what a fucking idiot for just wanting that.

But then on the other side of things, they're like, well, Tiana, your dreams, I mean, good for you for having them, I guess, but really all you need is love. So bithology of this movie all women are stupid. Yeah, it's

it's a lose lose situation. Also, how fast that Charlotte like agreed to me, Like as soon as he proposed he was like, I gotta go make plans, and I mean, Tianna seems to be like living in a more modern version of the world of like you just met him, and Charlotte's living in another version of the world where she's like, yeah, so we're getting married and you're just

like what is And I don't know. Also heard her dad have like it seemed like they had no concept of money, Like they just were handing out hundred dollar bills to people, being like this will cover it because he does it to the newspaper boy, and then she does it to Tiana and for the beignets, And I was like, Tiana, why didn't you get on these beignets earlier? It seems like you could have he could have, Just

like why didn't Charlotte give Tiana a business loan? Because their friends like I don't understand, like, and I feel like that just plays more into the like they weren't racist. They were just these bumbling duphaces of like, yeah, John Goodman trips and a million dollars falls out. It's not that he was withholding money from anyone if that, he just she just didn't see them. He just Also Charlotte was like mean to like some random boy, Like in the thing she just said to him, she said, if

I say later, that means never loser. Right, I don't. I don't, Like, I do understand why they're doing it, but it just makes you even more So. I think that Charlotte is I mean, she's she's not just none of the female characters are well now. The characters are well reading. Which brings me to the Animal Friends. Um, I think that there's a big section of this movie that nothing happens in basically the second that Tiana becomes a frog, nothing happens for a very long time. Uh,

They're just kind of hopping around the bio. It's it's like, it's beautiful. The animation is great, but I would argue that most of the animal friends that they meet in this long stretch of nothingness are admired in tropes that are either of like poor people or black people. And then it just it just gets like, why are we doing this? I think that Raymond the firefly who was killed, is the worst example of this. Were the way that

he's animated, the way that he's stylized. He's given like a Cajun accent, right, and then his teeth are all fucked up, Like I feel like there's a lot of stereotypes as particularly of like poor people in the South. We also see humans who are supposed to be poor in the South like like like, oh, when you don't have money, you just are falling all the time, like, but also the rich people are following, and you're like,

who does anything here? She's the one holding down the city, the only person who can do a fucking thing in this town. It's ridiculars, I mean, but it's like, I think that this is another through line in Disney movies of even because like I love animation so much, and it's people telling themselves so easily in animation, where like the people you're supposed to care about are drawn to be you know, Western beauty standard hot people, and the people who you are not supposed to who are a

joke are drawn very differently. And that applies to other I mean that the way that people are like Belle looks very different than everyone in the French town, and they're drawn like cartoons. They're like they're they are not drawn to be sexy princesses, and the way that they drew like people who didn't have as much money, the way that they drew the animal friends who were supposed to be stand ins for other trupes. It's just ridiculous. Yeah.

It also also to add to the firefly thing, I thought it was really interesting that the reason he loves Evangeline the stars because she's so bright, like it's brittain beautiful. She doesn't talk, and he's like, she's shy, but I love her. And it's like, oh, I didn't even think of that. That was like the first thing I picked up on. I was like, I was like, she you don't know who what her personality is because she's a star,

and yet you love her. Oh my world, like feminie, this icon Evangeline what I kind of like, they're god feminist. I mean, we don't know her story, another woman robbed of a coherent plot. And then also when when Ray dies and becomes a star next to her, like what if she didn't want that? She never got to speak, she didn't consent to Ray the star. Let's be honest, it was just another star. The bug died. The bug dies like the full dead. No, he's a start. What

if I died on this? Rose dies like the end of Titanic. Rose falls asleep and has a dream. At the end of Titanic, she does not dies what I meant, she dies, But but you know who else dies? Ray and he doesn't come back as anything. He just dies. He stepped on by the villain and he dies. And why did he do that? It? Also yeah, it just yeah,

it was it was unnecessary death. Also, but I do like what you said about Philander dying, just like, have you got harpoons in the third act of the movie and they're like, oh, no, Ursula harpooned flounder and then Flounder They're like, oh, but look he's up, he's the sun now, No, he's not harpooned. Also, did you notice how like we were touching on the like animation a

little bit and like the design when they're frogs. I feel like Tiana, they're still designing frog Tiana as like Western beauty standard frog because she's like, yeah, visibly much thinner then Navine frog. So it's like, what do you They found a way to make the frog fam they fam I mean, and they do that thing that there's like all those great Anita Sarkisian videos about where they like basically gave her the like miss pac Man treatment. Where it's like she's a slender, curvy frog with long

eyelashes and you're like, it's a frog, but the fucking frog. Um. Yeah, they just they just really find ways to do Tiana and every female character dirty in every way. We sort of discussed this already, but the way that her relationship with her mother is treated is like just again takes place in this void where the mother is allowed to live, but all she does is neg her daughter or talk about the father like there's no the father is still the driving influence in Tiana's life. It was it was

like she didn't have a dream of her own. It was like her dad's dream. And then she gave her dad's dream up so that she could have the dream with the v right, I give up on her dad's vision. It's so, I mean I like it. Terrence Howard is the dad, and the dad Dad is like such a lovely character. But but yeah, she's just carrying out her father's vision. And then yeah, I mean, yeah, like I agree with you. Like the dad does say like some great things where he's like, don't just wish like actually

be in action. He wants her to be somebody who does something in the town, and it's not just which is then nothing for there's a lot of Disney dads that are like, you don't you can't do anything, so that again it's like a little subversion. But then also another character stuff or says with the results of that subversion, I still I love Tiana. I just it's so I

feel like, Okay, correct me, if I'm right. I feel like the general vibe around Tiana is that we all love her, and we all wanted better for her, yes, a hundred percent. Like I did not want her to marry a mediocreman, and that's what she did. Right. I'm glad. I mean, I'm glad that she got her beautiful restaurant, don't I don't know. I mean this this fucking movie ignores the fact that women just got the right to vote.

Maybe depending on when in the like, you're just just like because if this was like set current day, you know, because like n he like explains like when they're in the when she's helping him mince the thing, He's like, oh, I lived with all these servants. I don't know how

to do anything. And it's like, you know, if this was like Wney should be helping him fill out of W four right, it's uh there there's also I mean, if you go beyond just the actual movie itself, it's really frustrating that, you know, any time that there is especially in a company like Disney, anytime that there is a protagonist that isn't like a thin white someone, there's

so much more writing on the production's success. Um, then if there's a so so Disney princess movie that's like, you know whatever, a French white girl and it does okay, people were like, whatever, we'll make another. It's fine. But there was so much pressure put on this movie that was in some ways. I mean, it was successful, it made its money back and then some, but it wasn't the gigantic smash hit that they wanted, which is a great excuse for people who don't want black leads and

movies to not make movies anymore. When the problem was that they wrote an incoherent movie that liked like it's so it's like you wrote a bad movie. That's why it didn't make as much money as you wanted. You also released it the week but like at the same time as Avatar. That's another reason that it didn't do. And the marketing around this movie. I mean there's some isolated examples of like some pretty like racist marketing of of this movie and the way it was marketed to

young girls. I mean it was sexist and racist, it was just everything because men be marketing shit. Uh and it's just and and even as recently as two years ago, um, when Ralph Breaks the Internet came out, there's that scene where all the princesses show up and they're like blah blah blah meta commentary, and you're like, fucking whatever. But in the original trailer they had like lightened Tiana's skin and changed her facial structure to hair. Yeah, and and

then people were like, um, excuse me. And then they're like, oh, sorry, we thought we could get away with it. Sorry, and then they changed her crazy. I remember that they did that. I can't remember which actors, but they did that on like a magazine cover where they like lightning and like a real life person. I can't remember who. It was

fucking ridiculous. And there there are also stories from two thousand nine, when you know, it's always this big deal when princess is added to official canon, because that is like a thing, and this is very granular, but Disney princess merch sells like fucking hotcakes. It's back Pagas's lunch boxes, as t shirts, as everything. But just because you're a Disney princess, doesn't mean that you're on the merch, right, So Mulan is often not on the merch. Pocahon's is

almost never on the merchants, and so Tianna. They were basically like, guess what Tiana is going to be on the merch, which is like, whoo, she should be on the merch. So they said to put on the merch. But then there were all these things that have happened to multiple Disney princesses, but it was especially egregious with Tiana, where they changed the color of hers in by a little bit, they changed the structure of her face just to make it quote unquote fit in with the merch.

And just, I mean, this happens every time, Like it's just ridiculous. It's just it's just such a bummer that the this could have been such a monument I mean it is a monumental movie. The fact that it's it's features the first black Disney animated princess. The movie barely makes sense. The plot is either not much as happening, or what's happening is too convoluted, Like I want to like it so much more than I do. Well, it's

just like it's a behind the scenes problem. They didn't hire the people who needed to be hired for this movie to be coherent or good. Exactly. No, it definitely like the one good thing is we all loved Tianna. We love Tianna. But other than that, other than that, yike yeike yaike um, there's a part of me that just like wants Tiana to get a redo. I'm like, can we can we just do something for her? Can we do something for Tianna? She didn't deserve to have

to be in this movie, right, I know? Also worth mentioning the like queer coding of the villain Dr Facilier. It happens, and well there weren't enough tropes associated with that character already, so well, yeah, we talk a lot about this concept on various other Disney movies, so you know, check out those episodes for more, but it's definitely present here. I love the part where big Daddy le Buff shoves

up Ben his daughter's mouth. No, you know, like Dad's do And that's oh, I meant to say that earlier. That's like another troupe on top of a troupe on top of a trope for Charlotte of like dumb woman obsessed with daddy that I'm like, listen, I'm smart and I'm obsessed with my dad. We exist, We're out there. To me, the only really moment I could identify as the movie acknowledging race at all, And this isn't even an example of a time that it does it directly,

but I feel like it's implied. Where the white real estate agents tell Tianna when she gets out bid for the restaurant property, they say, a woman of your background, you're better off where you're at. And yeah, that's the only time that I noticed that this movie acknowledges like her race or her background at all. But it's like, again, just that one tiny moment. It's not explicit, so you don't necessarily know exactly what they're implying. Yeah, it's just

like you didn't you didn't even take step one. There were some and it's like, I mean, I'm not gonna use too much time getting super into it. There's a writer named Serena McCoy. Gregory who wrote about this movie in depth and found some references to the racial politics of this specific area at the specific time. But they're so small that it's like no one would have known. I'll just read quick quote. Most of so it has to do with the masquerade ball and who's allowed to

wear masks and who isn't. I guess was a law at this time. Quote. Most of the attendees are costumed to mask, with noted exceptions of Charlotte and Eli and the black attendees. The band performers in Tiana are not masked, reflecting local law that prohibited blocks from covering their faces. At the end of the scene, we realized that Dr Facilier has broken with custom and law hiding behind a

white Janus faced mask. So apparently they referenced this very specific but it's like that also, I also am like that could have been an accident. Uh. But yeah, I don't know the the any attempt to express I mean, Disney is never going to try to express realism. But if they're that committed to not expressing realism, why put

it here? Like it's just yeah, really bizarre. I mean, I do want to wanna shout out to Rob Edwards, the black screenwriter of the three, the other two being um Ron Clements and John Musker, who are also the directors. So because there's like at least one black person involved in the production of this movie, even though it doesn't seem like a lot of stuff got through. But he also, I didn't realize this wrote one of my what I think is a very underrated Disney movie, which is Treasure Planet.

Oh you wrote Treasure Planet. I liked Treasure Planet. No one else like Treasure Planet. It was a problem. I've seen it. Oh it's okay. First of all, for someone who hates steampunk, I like all steam things. So it's like steampunk Treasure Island. And like Jim what's his name has like a buzz cut and bangs, remember the trailers, and he can fly. It's good. But anyways, shout out to Rob Edwards, um and I wish he could have like written this movie by himself instead of you know,

I have a black woman rite this movie. I have a black woman direct this movie. That's I mean. And and it's still like women much less Black women are

still like not given access to animation in particular. And it's just I read that Oprah in addition to being cast as the voice of the mother, was also brought on as like a technical consultant, but only after they'd already received criticism for the movie being racist, so they pulled the hail Oprah and which again is just like it's just so disingenuous of like, yeah, we'll hire a black woman on this story about a black woman, but only after you've been yelled at. It's like, wouldn't it

just serve the production of whatever? Animation? There's not a lot of women just in general. Sure, Like it's it's very uh because yeah, I used to I used to work. I used to work in animation, like not in the drawing aspect. I used to work more in like dealing with the day to day logistics of like voiceover people. So it actually is funny. I've worked with severally actors in the movie that are very nice and very sweet.

But yeah, you don't see you have like a few women who are like up at like the decision making level, but not so many, you know. So hopefully as I exited animation, there's like more people coming to the top, so hopefully they will continue. Yeah, let's hope. So, I mean it's still like the two women that I'm aware of that have directed Disney animated productions, they're both white women. Ones Jennifer Lee, who I think has gotten promoted pretty

high up in Disney animation, which is good. She co directed Frozen because you gotta have a boy with you, And then Brenda Chapman, who directed Uh, well that got complicated, didn't it? Listen to our brave episode? Yeah, she did direct it, but she is again credited as a co director with a man. Because people get nervous when women have too much power of doing anything. They're like, oh, we gotta get someone name mark in here. I believe. Don't quote me on this. I believe though, that Pixar

does have like one person of color. That's a director that did like a short film. Oh is it the one fun? What's it called? Uh? I think it had something to do with like food. Yes, yeah, I think I think that's it. Does this movie pass the back tail test? Yes? Yes, um few times definitely. Between Tiana and her mom, Um, you doora talk about you know, opening up the restaurant and all that stung children, grandchildren, It barely passed. But then they that's followed by them

talking about Tianna's dad, and then a hypothetical prince charming. Um, do any conversations between Charlotte and Tianna passed? Because I feel like a lot of them are about men and princes. And I caught a few two line exchanges, but it doesn't pass by the margin you would want it to write. And then I was like, does her talking to Evangeline count Evangeline shimmers? Yes, so that is her that was

in the script in Shimmers. In response, Um, I mean the women in this movie are are very much outnumbered by male characters. Um, which is again very And then Mama Odi doesn't I don't know if any of those I feel like most of those conversations are still about like it's like the love interest exactly right. Like I feel like almost everything Mama Odi says is the subtext of like head rolla We'll change your life or maybe the Tapasco sauce thing that that I mean maybe Again,

it's like all the passes are quick. They're all like they're very very quick, and it's against like so not unusual for in a princess movie for the like female characters to be vastly outnumbered all the animals we meet are male identified animals. They're let's rate it on our nipple scale, um zero to five nipples based on its

representation of women. UM. I know this is such an important movie to like young black girls and other the world in the world, but it really subscribes to a lot of weird tropes and stereotypes between uh, you know, weird racial stereotypes. This movie doesn't like fat people. This movie doesn't like poor people. This movie doesn't like any dreams or this movie really mishandles what the religion of voodoo is. You know, it's got a lot of problems,

but it is important. Representative, as we always talk about, like representation and inclusion and progress in general, is a slow process that has to start somewhere, and usually the place that it starts is not necessarily very good or very nuanced, but it's a stepping stone for other more nuanced, more inclusive and progressive things to be made from there, usually when the first thing that's not very nuanced proves

to be financially successful, which this movie was. But yes, we've had better representation, not necessarily of like black women royalty in much cinema, but the fact that this is like the first Black Disney Princess is not nothing. The fact that it was made almost exclusively by white men is not the choice that should have been made, as we've talked about. So there's all these factors. I don't know what nipple rating to give it. Is it like a two and a half is it's kind of right

down the middle. I'm giving it. Uh uh, I'm between the one and half and it too. I think that, like the behind the scenes representation in this movie is so pissed poor and Tiana, Like Tiana is the wind, Trianna is the win. Tiana is everything that is good about this movie is Tianna in the first half hour, right and not Yeah, because she's a fucking frog. There's

not enough. It's not enough. I'll give it. I'll give it one and a half nipples one for Tianna and a half because it was the first black But other than that, that's that's it everything. I'm like you, really, there's no other character with redeeming progressive anything. Okay, I'll follow your lead, Lexi into one and a half. One and a half. Yeah, cool, Well do better world. Well,

these directors, these directors did direct Mahanna. You know a few years later, So not that that's who should have directed. Marianna is a more progressive text. The world is a confusing place. Um, Lexie, thank you so much for me, Thank you for having Where can we Where can we find you online? Um at smile Alexei on everything. So but Lexi has spelled l e x i E wonderful and then go see the best. Yes, yeah, thank you. You can follow us on social media at becktel Cast, Twitter,

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