The Nightmare Before Christmas with Natalie McGill

live show and that was much fucked up. That was cool, da good. So we went to the Drafthouse Comedy Theater in d C. So this is the episode that you are about to hear that we recorded live there. But before we do that, just a really quick plug for our upcoming West Coast tour. Yes, that's right. We are hitting three cities on the West Coast, the fun little vaca for us in between that you needed to know.

On the we're going to be in San Francisco for Sketch Fest, covering the Breakfast club that's at Piano Fight, that's true. And then we're heading up the coast to Portland, Oregon. On January we are talking about fight Club and we're going to be at the Curious Comedy Theater. And finally on the January we'll be in Seattle, Washington. We're doing two shows. They're doing The Little Mermaid and Sleepless in Seattle. So choose your poison or you know, preferably good above fast.

They are going fast for and that's not like like a thing that hey, we're just serious. Like at the time of this recording, the Little Mermaid shows almost sold out, so grab those tickets a sap um and you can do that by going to bectelcast dot com and click on the live appearances to up and we will see you. See there are right in enjoy our episode cast. Welcome to the Beck Deel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Torante and you knew that. So

that's here. We are in the flesh. How are you? How are you kid? I'm great. We just ate some burgers together and did um. Yeah, we were in Philadelphia last night. Now we're here. We got a small I I love a small whoop of association just like I also have been there. You were like hell yeah. Great. Oh there's a feminist icon gel shirt. We're she is a feminist ico. We were so. I saw you in the lobby wearing the shirt, and I first of all shocked anyone bought that shirt. And I'm so thrilled that

someone bought it. And I'm pretty sure both people who bought that shirt, because they're only two we have met in person. Now just great, very high retention rate. Um, yeah, we're still We're stoud to be here. Yeah, we're talking about The Nightmare before Christmas. Oh so, so clap if you saw the movie, using the movie, did your homework, etcetera. Now by round of applause. Who has not seen The Nightmare before Christmas? Okay, we heard jump be shy space, Yes,

Queen go off, etcetera. Other platitudes. There will be a Caitlin's famous recap to clue everyone in who hasn't seen the movies. Nothing happens in this movie, and it's like, not a big deal. It's mostly expositional songs. Yeah, that is a lot of it. Caitlyn likes this No, okay, sorry sorry to out you as a hot topic manager, but Caitlyn likes this movie. I grew up well we'll

get into our histories. But yeah, well you you know, but for any listeners at home, if you're not if you don't know what the show is, or if you don't because sometimes people bring a friend and they're like, why am I here? And who are these people? And you anyone else? Hi? Okay, hi, wait clap if you're random? Oh wow, okay, awesome, okay, okay, this will be fun. Okay. So we're annoying and that's all you need to know this.

So we uh analyze famous movies using the Bechtel test as a popping to say, as a popping off point, up, jumping off, chumping off point right, as a popping off point. We pop off to the Bechtel test. Two SIPs of beer and I'm violently drunk. I don't know. Um. So we talked about the portrayal of women in movies, one movie at a time, and we use the Beckel test

to initiate that conversation. The Bechtel test, being uh you plant to the movie requires that a movie has two named female identifying characters who speak to each other about something other than a man for just two lines of dialogue. That's our standard. That's our bar, very low bar. And yet you think many movies do not pass. Women may not be in the same room in some movies. Let's do a quick demo of the Bechtel test. Sure, Hey, hey, Jamie, there is a pimple I've been trying to manifest off

of my face, okay, and it's not working. It's getting spitefully larger. I'm sorry. I think you're beautiful just the way you are. Well, not that a woman's beauty. Oh my god, should matter grasping at straws I do. It is an offensively large pimple that I have graciously covered, but it can speak as a face um that passes. The Betel doesn't have to be interesting or good. It just hads to be. It not about a man. Let's

spread guess. Okay, she's a stand up comic right here in d C. And she's a writer and on air correspondent for the political satire show Redacted tonight on RT America. Give it up for Natalie McGill. Wow, such a warm reception. Thank you, Hi, thanks for being here. Oh my gosh, So tell us about your history, your relationship to this movie. Okay,

so so full disclosure. I used to be like scared to like I avoided this movie like the Plague for the longest time because as a child I used to be like deathly afraid for some reason of like stop motion, any type of stop motion and like Claymation animation, So like for the longest time, like I couldn't deal with like California Raisins. I couldn't do California Raisins. I couldn't do any of the Christmas specials that airon CBS. I

couldn't do Chicken Run. See all right, I have like a special place in my heart for like Chicken Run and uh, what's the other one? Andram like I get I get stomach those. But it was like even like like deep cuts like the claymation and like the Speed Demon music video and like like for Michael Jackson, like I couldn't do it. So it was like a really long time before I watched the movie. Okay, so when did you see it? Probably saw like a couple of years ago. But like I don't know, Like the songs

are kind of cheesy. I'm not gonna live, but like I could, I could kind of kind of kind of get into it. Jamie, what's your history? I thought I had seen this movie, but I have been to a hot topic that literally was my I was so sure. I was, like, for sure, I've seen this movie of core. I used to own a Jack Skellington sweatshirt. But it was just that I enjoyed the musical Fallout Boy, and that I had a crush on a skateboarder who was an assistant manager at Hot Topic. So I was lurking

at the Hot Topic. And if you spend an hour in a hot Topic, you've basically seen this movie. But I haven't. I had him through the articles of clue like this story. No. I mean, well, based on Hot Topic, you would think that Jack and Sally have way more of a story than they do. But we'll get there. They're in like two scenes together, and he's like this short movie that feels forever. Uh, it's like seventy five minutes long. It's so it's just a ghoulish man being

like I want to be Santa. You're like, what, it's a it's dumb. Anyways, I watched it this morning. Well, it was a movie of my childhood. I think it came out when I was like seven, and you know, it was like, oh, my god, this is so cool and look at the skeleton and it's fun. So yeah, I loved it as a kid. The songs are cool. There's no argument to be made for the contrary. You're outnumbered on this stage. On stage, let's pull the audience.

Who thinks the songs are dumb? Clap your hands. Okay we got a few people and that three who thinks the songs are great? Wow, lots more people. Thank you for your support. Well, I guess the shows we gotta go. Come on, he good at the santycause that's a great song. You're not like the songs and a Star is Born, but you're like, no, the songs Nightmare before Christmas, slap,

Like that's just not true. I love that they played the song from A Star is Born on the radio as if it were a real song, Like do we not know this is a fake song. There's like thirty seconds of good music from that movie, and I love it so much. Anyways, this movie, yes, so it was a huge movie on my childhood, hadn't revisited in many years. Kind of forgot the story. And it's true, not a ton happens, but let's find out what does happen? Shall we Okay, Okay, it's going to recap. Yeah, Natalie, feel

free to interrupt during the recap please. I like that. I'm always the person that's like, hey, let's just interrupt Caitlin as much as I need it. I yeah, if I were a dude up here, and that would not at all. We have a temporary embargo on male guests. That's just something maybe fans of the show. I've noticed we have a full embargo on men for a while. We got too many complaints. Okay, So The Nightmare Before Christmas, basically it's about a white man who appropriates another culture

and much just like ruins everything. It doesn't help that he's white either. I always like a skeleton and bleached, could not be Whiter's the lightest ruins like ruins everything. And then it's like, whoopsee, thanks for helping me realize I don't like other cultures. But he was. He was oddly arrogant about it too, and he was like, nobody appreciated the work that I put into. You did a bad job. You have children heads like talking, and then

the whole well, we'll get there. But the fact that Santa is trapped in the basement with the Boogeyman who has Dice and then is freed, and then Santa is like, no, Worri's gotta go, and then he's just like He's like it's fine, It's yeah. There's like before I go home, I would like press charges. I would have done something regally told him there Jack Kellington should be in prison.

It's true. So the story takes place in the world where every major US holiday, uh, including Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving, yeah, and every something else that I feel like it's like specific just to the US, Like St. Patrick's Day, I feel like isn't really celebrated anywhere else. What is St Patrick's Day world? Like? Well, that's I think that's what fascinated me so much about this movie because I was like, I want to go. I want to see a movie about like what the other worlds are like, and then

like missed opportunity for a franchise. I don't think we can agree. Just a bunch of angry white dudes trying to claim Irish heritage and just puking green like everywhere. Yeah, there's two like Christianity worlds. There's Christmas World and there's Easter, which could be very grim. Uh. We see a bunny. But there's other ship that goes on and around Easter that is not so festive. Yeah, like Stigmata Jesus. Maybe also this one. Okay, this is getting ahead a little bit.

But there's like a part of this movie where everyone at hall and it's not Halloween Town. That's a better movie than this. Um, it's called Halloween Town. And there's anyone who who's a matron, any matrons here? You've heard our Halloween Town episode? Yeah, both Disney movies, and they recycled the name. I mean, it is a bad name. But but there's like a part where they think Jack Skellington. They're like, he's gonna die. I was like, isn't everyone

here dead? Why is that a problem? Because at the beginning they're like we're all dead and that is cool, and then at the end they're like, no, he's gonna die. Like but he was dead, right this movie is sorry? Okay, So we meet Jack Skellington. He's like the icon Jack Skellington. Um, he is like the highly Revere. He's like the celebrity. He's the Pumpkin King. Yeah yeah, yeah, what does that? So it's a it's a city it's a town that has a king and mayor that's just like London. I think,

what is democracy? What are the polls like? Down? So the thing is he's tired of Halloween and he's like, are you long for something more? And then we also meet Sally. Um, she's like this like patchwork quill Lady's dall. It's just an excuse to like, we can there's one female character in this story, and we can rip her apart whenever we want. Very scary. Um yeah, yeah, I mean the introduction to Sally is she literally has her arm torn off when she's trying to get away from someone.

You're like, oh cool, let's set the tone. And she admires Jack from Afar, but she is basically enslaved by a mad scientist who created her in his lab. So he's a man in stem boo okay, but she's a she's a woman in stem because she makes potions, which is what scientists do. Yeah, because she's actively trying to like poison him and escape a lot of poisoning in this movie, a lot of roof being the boss. It's a very abusive relationship. Yeah, it's basically did anyone see

Phantom Thread? Because the relationship between her and the scientists is basically phantom thread a deep cut, good job, Caitlin. Okay, So Jack stumbles upon the entrances to the other holiday worlds and he's like, really, let me walk into the woods. Sure, and then he finds the second act of the movie. Right, he sees the door that looks like a Christmas tree. He's like, oh, what's that's all about? And then he gets sucked into it and he ends up in Christmas Town.

Secular religion, right, just takes your right in, just like a vortex that's so shiny. How can he resist? So he he's like, what's this? There's a song literally called that, and then he discovers what Christmas is all about, and then he returns to Halloween Town. He's like, hey, everyone, I found this cool new holiday. Let's appropriate it. And

everyone's like, okay, whatever you say, pump king king. But they kind of mess it up at first, like he doesn't explain it very well because I only spent like twenty minutes there. He's like a vice reporter. He like, it goes there, does a lap. He's like, I think I get it, and then he got mad at them for not understanding it, Like you don't understand He's like, nobody's actually really cool, guys. He was there for no time.

He didn't even appear to have spent the night. No oh yeah, I think he was just there for a few minutes. Yet. So then he's like, yeah, let's let's instead of doing Halloween this year, I just take over Christmas. So he he like commissions Sally to make him a Santa Claus outfit, even though she's like psychic. She has a premonition, she sees the future, and she has like a vision that his Christmas is gonna go bad, go up in flames basically, and then he's like, uh huh,

make my suit. And that's their first scene together, one of like three scenes that they have together. Yeah, which is I think it's like at least halfway into the movie. I think it takes a while for them to be on screen together. She's kind of following him around for a while, She's sending up various potions to his she

sends up like a picnic mask. It. Also, it kind of reminded me that scene of like say, like I don't know if you guys seen say yes to the dress or like somebody will getting married in like two days, and they have it under two thousand dollar budget, like find me this dress, Like, no, that's not how it works. She's the miracle worker. She makes the Santa Claus suit happen.

She does it, and then he goes he gets these three kids, lock Stock and Barrel to kidnap the real Santa Claus and they do that, and then they're like, why did they get the Easter Bunny on the wrong Christian world? Right? So then then they get Santa Claus and they're like, here, Oggie Boogie, have him Oogie Bookie. And then you're like, oh, this movie doesn't have a villain yet. Uh, And then you're like, wait, I thought Jack Skellington was the villain. But then the movie is

like no, no, no, it's Oogie Boogie. So with with Santa Claus gone, now Jack Skellington could be like, hey, kids, I'm doing Christmas now. It reminded me of when squid Word dressed up as Santa except squid Word is a queer icon and Jack Skellington isn't. So Jack is like ruining Christmas. He's like giving all the kids like decapitated heads and like bats and stuff. And meanwhile Sally goes and tries to save Santa Claus because she's like, oh, my boyfriend who I love, or like this guy, I'm

not her boyfriend. She doesn't really It takes a while to figure out if they even know each other, right, Yeah, because I thought when I was watching this movie today when she sends up the basket and then he sees her and then he looks back and she's gone, I was like, oh, maybe they haven't met, right, But then they're like, oh no, he does know who she is. He just doesn't care. She's actively stalking him and he ignores her. Is the nature of their relationship for most

of the movie. It is like how I behaved with that hot topic manager. I would be at the hot topic, which I shouldn't have been, but I was acting like I wanted items I don't know. I was like, oh no, like I am a goth. It'd be like weird because you're wearing a back brace. So Jack is fucking up Christmas and the Christmas town fights back and he's like,

oh no, what have I done. There's probably a lesson to be learned here, but I didn't learn this town or just like human world, where they're just like it's the news and they're like, I think that's the human world at that point, delivering it like all the presents, like the actual boys and girls. I found that weird. It's like Christmas Town, no response really from Christmas Town. And we know that Santa Claus for some reason, Santa's wife has given a name, even though we never even

see her. But he's like Kathleen, and I'm like Kathleen, and then he's kidnapped, but she is a named female character who never appears and never does anything. Wait, I'm still trying to his wife. I'm still trying to process. For some reason, I thought that like in Christmas Town, Christmas is only celebrated and everyone's just like Christmas all the time, Like they don't go to the outside world. Same thing. I think that it's just all your long, they're gearing up for that one thing. So I think

that's how Halloween Town was. Like, so when the movie starts like we're coming up on Halloween. So then they go out, okay, I'm learning, the mayor shows up and then he is like days yeah, and I was like, so I thought that was kind of comical. Because to me, like, that's the dude you want on like your nonprofit who when you're like planning like an annual meeting, because he's there like the day right after, like all right, let's

prepared for next year. And I was like, Okay, this is a little over zealous, but well, Plie will be prepared. I thought the mirror was going to end up being bad because of his two heads, but it turns out he's just got two heads. Yeah, and I let my implicit two head bias informed my viewing. Well, I'm glad you learned something today. I learned something today. We're all growing. So Jack funked up Christmas and he's like, oh no, I funked up. I have to go back to Halloween Town.

And then he saves Sally and Santa Claus from Oogie Boogie and then Sally almost saves Santa Claus. Yes movies like no, no, no, you cannot do the real save wait for the skinny guy to get back. Yeah. My favorite part of that was like after they were like need Like the first thing out of Santa's mouth was like you should have been listening to her the entire time, Like that isn't that always how it is. Yeah, and then Santa's like, anyways, peace and like levitates away? Yeah. Also,

why didn't he levitate away sooner? If you could levitate away, why was it a problem? Yeah, A good question. So then Jack's like, I'm gonna be the Pumpkin King again because I love Halloween again. And I think that's the end of the movie. Oh, Jack and Sally they do kiss. She sings a song of like I love him, and then he sings a song the third song of the movie that's like I want to be Santa. Their motivations

are at odds. It's like we've all been in a relationship where you are doing all the work and your romantic partner wants to be Santa Claus like, we want different things. We should just separate a tale as old as time. And on that note, let's take a quick break. What do you say? Good? All right? Okay, So I want to talk about So Sally is really the only female character there? There is one of the three like Tricker, treat Kids, scram, there's Lock, Shock, and Barrel. I might

have said Stock before Shock is the shock. Yes. She is voiced by Catherine O'Hara as is Sally. Which okay, if you're casting a voice actor, there's no excuse to not cast someone who can sing because you don't have to see their face, right, Like, it's like Catherine Sally's song I think is unlistenable because she's basically a high school soprano, like really reaching for those top notes like Jack's cool. You're like, oh my god, it's like a bad middle school commencer. It's it's uh, I mean, this

is you know, but it's shrill. That is yeah, sure that her I mean we all agree mostly that the songs are great, but her song it could use some work. Shore it's a little Pitchie dog like it is so in in the town of Halloween Town, we've got Shock, one of the trick or treat kids, We've got Sally, We've got a few like witches and hags, and one shape of water looking creature. Yes I saw that. I mean, yeah, I've noticed, and there, of course you did. And all we really see them do is like fan girl over

Jack Skellington. But to be fair, everyone fan girls over, like the whole town is like Jack, we love you, and they need to calm down, right. What we never see is why that is like there because at the beginning he comes out and everyone's like, who, he's great, and then we never really see a demonstration of like what's he great at, what's he do? What's his skill? Uh? He sings about how awesome he is, so we talk

about a metaphor for other things. It's like, I mean, he says he's awesome a lot, so he's probably done something. But if you were to he exclusively fucked stuff up

and then forgives himself. Like there's that whole The songs are so bad because there's like that song where he's like he fox up Christmas and scares every living child and then was to like a graveyard and it's like, well, I sucked at Christmas, but I am great anyways, I am not sorry and over just like the message of the song perhaps is not great, but the melody wow, the composition yes. And then the ghost Dog, like even the ghost Dog I like to think was not on

board with what was zero zero? And I mean, if we're talking about zero, let's just watch holes, like right, Hector ZERONEI hello? Zero from Holes was like such a childhood crush of mine. I was like like, Shaya, move away. Oh, sometimes I were like, but shya, but shia, but also Zero was it was the was the true Katie of the movie. The Zero's nose glow the entire time from

the start. Yeah, okay, because so he didn't realize that when he was supposed to go on the sleigh, right, he was like, Oh, your nose glow super Like, how dog? If you owned this dog is nose who's glowing the entire time? Right? They established it really early on because in a really hilarious visual joke, Jack Skellington rips out one of his own ribs and throws it and then Zero can't find it at first, but then he uses

the light of his nose to find it. You can't like supplant every joke possible with like what if it were Bones? Like that can't just be the joke. But that's like every joke in this movie. Really, you've never seen the Bones? Is that all? It is? Just bones? I don't know, I've never seen it. Is that. I think it's about Oh, no, cup, if you've seen Bones, okay, that's about is it doctor Bones? Nick named Bones? Okay, so there's a man named Bones. And I was like,

I think it's just about a guy named Bones. I think they're looking at bones though anyway, So anyways, bones jokes, I'm over it. So I wanted to talk about the active choices that we see Sally make, because she does make some. First, she tries to poison the doctor's tea the first time. This happens a lot. Then she runs

away from him by pulling her own arm off. Then she poisons his soup, tricks him into eating it and with a whole with the red that she had ready shut whatever, and then she escapes out the window, sows herself throws. Yeah, that seemed genuinely bothers me. Where there's so much like God, I mean, we're talking about this backstage, but like Tim Burton's never ending quest to seem interesting, like the fucking like goth Edge Lord of the World.

Like it's just it goes without saying he sucks, but like, but the way he like glorifies just like doing him what any other case would be a suicide. He's like is played for a joke in this and that bugged me a lot where it's and also it's our only female character. It's like, does it pass the Bettel test if the only female character flings herself out a window like that's I don't know, didn't like that, didn't know

it wasn't okay. So before she flew flung herself out, she had like all the like her potions and stuff, and she had like a Pulley system and she like, yeah, definitely lowered that down. I was like, why couldn't you, Why couldn't you get right? Why did you have to because I guess she has to demonstrate her sewing skills. She had the technology that I simply don't know. God, that's yeah, that was dumb. So then she shows her back together after she flings herself out of the window,

brings the picnic basket to Jack. But then it's like t by like runs away, I shot. It's like a Jane Austen novel. So up until this point, none of these choices have really influenced the story. But then whenever Jack is like, hey better go, you know, ruined appropriate another culture, She's like, no, this is a bad idea because she's had that premonition. And then she adds something to like the cauldron to create the fog, but he's like,

it was juice twist, it's fog juice. But then that obstacle is like immediately overcome because he's like, oh, I've got my dog who I just remembered has a light bulb on his face, and the reindeer just a regular reindeer. But wait, there's a twist their bones. Dumbass movie, and then we already kind of touched on this. But at the end, she does try to save Santa Claus, who's

being imprisoned by the Boogeyman. But then she gets pretty close and she's like doing interesting stuff where she like uses her skills to like but also she uses like female sexuality by removing her leg to make the what's this the gobba ghoul? What's his name? She tries to get him horny with her detached leg. Yes, so you're just like sure, right, and then but then she uses

her hands to like untie the thing. So she comes close, but then she ends up getting captured herself, and I guess sews herself back together because the next time we see also Santa could fly the whole time, right, But that brings up the fact that, like most of Sally's skills that we see her do in the movie are like very domestic or like traditionally feminine because she's either always making food slash potions or sewing stuff, but there is like, I don't know, it's weird because the way

she's asked to prepare food, but then she does a science experiment instead in an attempt to murder, so that that I feel like it is like not total domestic or it's like hardcore domestics extreme domestic, and then she I don't know, it's weird and frustrating because she has other skills but no one cares about them or values them.

And at the end of the movie that's kind of unchanged, where we know that she can do chemical she has fogges and a frog's breath whatever, She's got all this science stuff, and then we also know she can predict the future and has preminent sans. But every interaction she has with Jackie, she's literally like Christmas is over and he's like, ha ha ha, can you sew this for me?

And he doesn't change in that regard at all. Right, Definitely, I would argue though, that having a premonition is like still sort of like a feminine trade because it's like a woman's intuition. Maybe have you seen that so raven? Because for her it's a defined skill, it's a superpower. Sure, I don't know. Yeah, good point. How but well that begs the question, how many female characters do we see having clairvoyance like that versus how many male characters? That's true?

I mean, I just don't. I don't want men to be able to know what the future is if anyone's going to have the power. But I think it's sort of like coded like that, Like clairvoyance is sort of coded as like a woman's intuition, and maybe there's nothing wrong with that. I don't know. We'll we'll figure this out in a later episode as we see more of

this and discuss it further. I don't it's well, I guess miss Sally, it's kind of unclear what because she is the a man's creation that seems to gain sentience beyond her creator, and there's like kind of some born sexy Yesterday vibes about the way she is created. It's unclear what she knows is like programmed into her and

what she knows that she's learned. So I don't know if like she was programmed clairvoyant or and I feel like maybe that's why, Like later on, when he creates like a whole other like woman like and then like uses like half of his brain and like puts it in there. So he has like his idea of like an ideal woman, whereas like she ended up carving some type of independence on her own, even though she was

still kind of domestic. Right, she does escape, which is cool, yeah, but then his like Mrs pac Man that he makes is very creepy. His identical twin question mark. Also, they both have half of a brain, So it's like these like lobotomized people just like like there's no way they're smart, just what I'm saying. But who here would pay to see a sex tape of them? I don't see any hands? Okay, that did occur to me, there's something there, Okay, cool to see. Yeah, I guess with the mad sign, do

we ever learn his name Finkelstein? Okay, so Frankenstein basically okay, got it? Yeah, So he like definitely views her as his property and like wants her to be very obedient, and I guess the fact that she's not and that she's defiant is good, but like it's a low bar.

That's where I mean. There are moments where I was like I think that it's trying to make common terry on something like even when I don't like the scene where she leaps out of the tower, but that almost felt like a commentary on like how princesses are always you know, trapped in towers and have to be rescued and she leaps from it, and so feminism there's like some really like empty like Tim Burton being like, right, you're just like now you've missed it. Man. She's also

she's also made of leaves. Does anyone else catch that she leaves inside of her every time she like falls apart, Like there's leaves that come out. She's like a scarecrow. Oh no, that's not straw. Watch the movie again. She's made out of leaves. Also wears the show Leaves follow up to bones Um. Sally's a weird character. It's weird because it's like one of those characters where, like we've talked about a million times, it's the only female character

we've really see that has narrative impact. She's pretty much exclusively defined by how she relates to the men around her, and there's like elements of her character that we're given that are cool and interesting and just go completely not addressed or explored really at all, right, right, right, And like we said before, they don't interact on screen together Jack and Sally until like halfway through the movie, and

even in that scene, he's extremely condescending to her. She's like, you probably shouldn't like steal other people's like cultures, and he's like, make the thing. And then he's like this part is red and this part is white, and like here's how it looks like. And she's like, dog, I know, but like, don't steal other people's cultures. And then yeah,

there's like the whole like she's stalking him thing. And then he doesn't return any like romantic feelings for her until the very end, whenever he's impressed that she came

to save him as far as I could. Hell, but but the end, he doesn't even finish this end and he's like, wow, you're and then it's like I don't know why these two people are about to kiss, but we got him to kiss, and then they do, and then the movie is really forced at the end, like you didn't have to end that way, really, but then

it's a Disney movie, so you kind of have. But like everyone's a I am away message was like looking for the Jack to my Sally you but that's the thing like Sally's I think she has the one song in the movie. Maybe there's a reprise I don't remember, but it's about how like, oh ar me and Jack going to end up together? I don't know. And then all of his songs are like, here's how fucking awesome I am. Here's a new thing I discovered and how cool I think it is, like here's the things I

longed for? Like and he never expresses any interest in a romantic relationship. Ever. There's a song that comes right off Sally's Pitchy Nightmare about how she's horny. That could so easily be Jack being like, oh, by the way, I also would like love, but he doesn't. The song right after the horny song is like I still want to be Santa Claus. He's kind of like Vhall selling it. By my view, he's in his tower, he's doing experiments.

He's just not interested in a relationship with asexual icon. Yeah, there's or he could just be like, uh, oh, what's that Reddit board? No fapping like that. That's the one where men convince themselves that if they don't jerk off for long enough, they'll like develop superpowers. They're like, I can't come until there was literally a guy that told me what He's like, Hey, I really like you, but unfortunately I cannot do anything sexual until I'm the best

guitarist in Chicago. So we're so we're assuming he's still not fucking d No. Jack seemed to me to be one of those kind of guys. Yeah, I can't funk till I'm Santa, and then he becomes Santa and that's why he's able to that's at the end. Yeah, you

posted to get like a band. Like dude trying to start a band vibe from Jackson Ellington from the start, and then I kind of was like, well, Sally wants to get with him, that's great, but it's like a lifetime of her going to like shitty concerts for like the rest of her life and then pretending to like the songs even though she's heard them like a thousand times,

Like that's her future. Uh real Quickly also kind of touched on this, but like the ending, whenever Sally is like tied up, she's very damseled, like Jack literally has to come in and like save her and untie her. From The Bad Guy. Very boring slow fight scene. Right. Oh but that okay, So that scene at the end with the oogy boogeyman still haunts me to this day.

Whenever he like his thing unravels and then he's filled with bugs, so you're either made of leaves or bugs or bones and tell him like the all of his like he died atom by Adam. I liked that part, like, all, if he's dead, we've got less than ten minutes ago, I Natalie, I totally agree with like the I don't know, like when you're a kid and you have like having

a stop motion aversion. I used to be really scared of like only happened in the eighties and nineties where there be like animals and they'd be live action animals, but they'd have computer animated mouths like in the movie Cats and Dogs. That is not good. What about Babe or Babe Pig in the city. No, no, no, no, you can't because they're just there's just like long shots of living animals digitally manipulated to say things. I don't know,

it's scary. I think we talked about this on the Men in Black episode with the little little Pug dog who's like that's a great example of that being very scary, and the cat and Stewart little was my like ultimate no even even the cute, even the cuteness, so it couldn't overpower nothing. You can't do it. Hey Caitlin, Hey Jamie, you take a break please, Yes, we can't. Discourse is exhausting. Seeing a sack and we're back. I feel refreshed. Yes.

I wanted to also talk about like the animation and the way that Sally looks esthetically, where like the different creatures of Halloween Town, like they come in all shapes and sizes, but like Sally's body type and her proportions are still like it's still adhered to like the ideal like western standard of beauty. They're literally people like shaped like sorry, game pieces, like just walking around the town.

I'm so happy people do whatever, by the way, But yeah, but she was like model proportioned, like it didn't make any sense. So boot It's like an in Ghostbusters where there's like all these actual cartoony looking ghosts and then there's just like a woman with tits like huge who sucks off a Ghostbuster and you're just like, why is this the only female ghosts, And I want to be clear,

I don't mean boo to that body type. I mean boo to that being the only representation we see on screen of women who can be like romantically appealing, the only option. Yeah, she's also like one of the only women who lives. There is kind of a Smurfett vibe to that. But there are witches and hags, yes, and the one shape of water creature who we have to imagine is like the funk lord of the town. She's like, bring me an egg. God, I need to see that

movie again. It's so horny. Yeah, it is like frustrating. And then the only other female character we really have is the one Tricker Treater, who it's worth mentioning is the brains of that operation as well, where the three Tricker Treaters, Uh, you know, she is kind of in charge and they funk up. But every time they funk up, she's like, see, I told you we shouldn't have kidnapped the Easter Bunny and you're like, Okay, I guess the movie is not over. But but even in that, like

Sally is, Santa says that has to be true. Santa says, like she's the smart one and we as an audience, No, she's the smart one. Uh. And then even in the Tiny Little Trick or Treating Coven, the one woman there is the smart one and no one listens to her. So just kind of how this movie goes. Well, there's a question then, like if she is the smart one, why isn't the why isn't it her story? Or like why isn't the movie about her? And like from her perspective?

Because Tim Burton made his Tim Burton Because because this is another I would argue Christmas themed male redemption story. We see it in The Christmas Girl, we see it with the Grinch, but it's like these Christmas figures who are like he hate it things and nobody likes me. But at the end, I'm going to have a heart and everyone would like me because I've redeemed myself. This isn't quite that's just queer though, queer baby Grinch, not adult grunch. That's not how that works. This is these

are your rules. But I mean, this isn't so much a male redemption story in The Nightmare Before Christmas because people already fucking love Jack Skellington, and by the end they love him even more. But it's all these like uninteresting characters who were like, I'm a shitty man. How about I learned something and then people will like me? And I just don't know why we have so many of those stories when there are smart women like Sally whose stories we need to hear. I don't know, do

we need to hear or Sally's story She's made of leaves? Yes, I think that the smartest decision made with this franchise is to not continue and after Man. But like nine year old Caitlin would have loved the Nightmare before Easter, the Nightmare before St. Patrick's Day, the Nightmare before Thanksgiving. It would be funny if Jack Skellington just got really into Irish people. He's like, guys, ever heard of Ireland? It's great? Like none of that ship is making it

into the Disney Vault ever. Yeah, those are like straight to videos sequels. Look, I just I think there could have been a franchise. It was a missed opportunity anyway. That's like, unfortunately, there's not much to talk about in a movie that has one woman who's on screen for like eleven minutes. Yeah, there's really not that my to say.

I mean other than I mean, I think like culturally there has been such a glorification of the Sally Jack relationship to the I was genuinely shocked that they do know each other, but one is extremely disinterested in the other person, and they appear on screen together for maybe four minutes maximum, like their stories barely intersect, and it's supposed to be like, wow, romance. People have tattoos of that on their human bodies. They have tattoos with that,

and like dad didn't did they not know? Maybe they have just been to a hot tipic allside, I don't know. Yeah, it is well is it also worth noting that because we talk about this all the time when men present stalker ish behavior in movies, and how troubling that is. Like she follows him, he's like he's singing, he's on that like spirally mountain thing. And then and it's basically an image from Mowanna. They stole from Mohana, is what I'm saying, a movie that came about twenty five years later.

So he's singing a song about how he's like I wish there was a different thing for me. It's it's the first song about I wish I was Santa every song as I wish I was hand and then she she's just like lurking in the background, like follows him. And then yeah, it's not okay. Stalking no matter what gender is not okay. You heard it here first on the Bechtel cast. It's really sad if you heard it

here first. By the way, like logistically, don't follow a vaal cell around, like yeah, not until he's the greatest guitar player in chicolso then bang his lines he would happen. Does anyone have anything else to say about the movie? I hate it? That's it. Shall we do some some questions from the comments from the audience, Sure, if anyone's got them. Does anyone have anything they want to say or a question? Come on, talk into the microphone. What's

your name? Rachel Hi? I was wondering if you guys picked up on like problematic racial things with Oggie Boogie and if you wanted to speak to that. So Oggie Boogie is I think the one character who is voiced by a person of color. Oh right, okay, here, I've got I am dB up right here, let me invest I so Ogie Boogie is voiced by Ken Page. And then oh, Undersea Gal ever heard of her, is voiced by a woman of color named Carmen Twilie. She also voices a character called Man under the Stairs at the

very beginning of the film. Yes, I am the Oh no, that was the bed. I was under the bed, not the stairs. I don't know who the Man under the stairs is. But um, so yeah, this is a mostly white cast. We are not surprised considering it's a Tim Burton joint. Although is it a Tim Burton movie? He didn't direct it. He Everyone's like it's Tim Burton's Nightmare before Christmas. I'm comfortable blaming it on him. Okay, he has like a store I think a story by credit

and he produced it, produced it. So yeah, So he is one of the few characters voiced by a person of color. And he's also one of I would argue two villains in the movie, the other one being the mad scientist Dr Finkelstein, who is he co did as Jewish?

And it's also that problematic, I mean hookie boogie like based strictly on the way he is presented, seems like he's supposed to be from New Orleans or there's like the aesthetic surrounding his lair and he always has a pair of dice like there's it's very like stereotypical New Orleans like voodoo. Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I I it's weird because it's like, it's not like you can't have a villain who's a person of color, but if that's the only person in the movie, then it's bad.

Don't have your only character who's voiced by a person of color be the one like the villain of the movie. Yeah, that's racis in a Timberton movie or like, probably everyone's going to be white and if someone is not white, it's probably for a racist reason. Right, wasn't the was the Peculiar Children whatever? That one was called Mrs Peagan's House of Children who Are Peculiar, that's the name of it. Right, it wasn't Sam Jackson the only person of color in

that movie, and he was also the villain? Am I right about that? Does anyone know? I'm getting some Okay, okay, that's enough for us. So yeah, Tim Burton has a as a bad track record when it comes to race and like We'll tell you too, which is also crazy. He's been outspoken about it. Yeah, go listen to our Edward scissor Hands episode for more details. Yeah, are there

any other questions, comments, thoughts? Yeah? Coming up? Is this movie just MoMA mea but clamation because it's a lot of expositional songs with not a lot in between, a lot of skinny white people that boreb be kind of Is it not just Mamma Mia? Yes? I agree that Mama Mia is boring and bad. I just watched it for the first time too, because my boyfriend's sister wanted me to, and I'm just like, I got half an hour into it, I'm just like, yeah, so this is

a series of songs? What is happening? This is Mamma Mia is a terrific film that everyone should see, where Pierce Brows is giving it a hundred and twenty percent, There's there's no reason to dislike Mamma Mia. I didn't dislike it. I just didn't like it. Did you see all of pierce prosident songs that's as finn Ify and like talk about pitchy like he's but he like you can tell, you're like who this matters to him? And

he just a spectacular failure. It was gorgeous. No, but I think you're right though it's boring and lots of expository singing and not much story that the same thing I actually have not, but I do enjoy Abba songs. So yet all you have to do to watch Mamma Mia is listen to Abba on Spotify or if you're like me, wait, did anyone here know about the band The A Teens before they knew about Aba? Yes? Okay. I was like, there's this awesome band called The A Teens.

They only sing hits. It's like, why is every eighteen

song the best song ever? It's because they only sing Yeah, there were Swedish teenagers getting away with murder, but there's any any other thoughts, comments, concerns, complaints, Oh we've got someone yeah, uh, just the To me, it was like the ultimate male fantasy playing out where literally they do nothing and the whole town loves them, women follow them for kind of no reason, and then like they get moody and stay inside, and the whole town like comes

to a screeching halt, like whoa, he's being IMO today, Let's figure this out, guys. Yeah, that's so true. True. It kind of reminded me of a Bye Bye Birdie like Conrad Bertie where like everybody's like fawning over him and like falling over themselves, like definitely getting them our boy. He said. There there are a few different times where in the beginning whenever he just like wanders into the woods and like is in Christmas Town, Like the town

is like we haven't seen Jack raised the alarm. He's like, they're so concert he's been gone. Maybe he just like stayed over to friend's house. They're like, he hasn't been home all night? Me did spend it the night in Christmas twn? Yeah, Also, like time works differently in Christmastown where your town looks malnourished, Maybe work on that first,

like beating the people actually lived there. The imagine if there were a mayor was like one emotionally unstable citizen was gone for the night, and they're like the city shut down. I do like his line where he's like I can't make decisions. I'm a politician, and you're like scathing. All right, we were all afraid to say it, but Mr Tim told us and god so a politician too faced? WHOA was that a metaphor? You think? Oh god, he I love when male auteurs are like get like you know, yeah,

we know. Yeah, we had one more question. Yeah, come on down, come on up. Do we think that Jack has or is supposed to have a penis? Yeah? I'd like to personally thank you for that question. I was waiting for a follow up question like if so, what does he come? Oh right, okay, which reminds me, okay, give it up. If you're familiar with the wet scap dry scap debate, first of all, horrify. That's okay. For those of you who are not familiar, I'm so sorry

for what's about to happen. Let's go, I just got debate is an on It's Bechtel cast Cannon than Kalen hits, so it's kenned. I like it. Okay, it's just a single question on the ballot. If the character Beetle Juice comes, we assume he does. If he comes, scabs, are they dry or are they wet? Right, We're it's just horrible. Not to be clear, we've made the mistake previously of offering no scous as an option, but that is sort of all over again when we're splitting the vote. So

it's so your options are wet scows, dry scows. What is beld Juice come and just um, I'll close my eyes so I don't hold it against anyone in case we talked to you after the show. But you clap clap if you feel like perhaps bel Juice wouldcome wet scaps. Interesting, uh, And if he comes dry scaps, that's pretty even. It's so, it's such a polarizing it such a it's the issue of our times. The answer for progressive blue wave speaking, it's dry scaps. But you know, but speaking to your question,

does Jack Skellington have a penis? He certally carries himself as if he does. Yes, And then follow up question, what does he come? Small bones? Can't we all agree that's cannon? All right? Well, shall we determine whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test? Well, it sure doesn't. Not even club, there are no women who interact. There are a few witches and hags next to each other who praise Jack Skellingtons, who are fan growing out at

Jack Skellington, but they're not talking to each other. Also there okay, we didn't talk about this, but there's one last thing. Okay, there are vampires. We've got ghouls, We've got a guy with an axe in his head, We've got the hot we've got all manner of creatures, but the only creatures who appear to be female identifying are either witches, hags, or that shape of water lady, Like, why can't there be a lady vampire? Why can't there be a lady gool? Like? How come we're pigeonholed into

these rolls of witches and hags? But I will say that the shape of water Lady was very progressive, yes, because usually it's the fish man that you raw dog, but out it's like Mr Tim makes a good point of what if it was a fishwoman that you rack? You're right, very progressive, brought brought visibility that we needed to the person in that character. I feel like that also, like your your line, it feels like you're also asking, like, why aren't there more lady serial killers? It was kind

of looked like it was falling into that scene. Why aren't there though, let's start a revolution tonight? No, no, I I totally agree, though it is like it's the most stereotypical. What are women referred to as? Not? On Halloween? It's very rare to see a man referred to as a ghoul or a person with an axe in their head. But you know, women are called, which is at very least, if not a series of far worse where it's on on the daily. Yeah. Oops, So anyway, a movie does

not pass the Bechtel tests. There are no women interacting at all. But if they did, I would guess that they would be talking about Jack Skellington because they all freak and love him. But yeah, hard, no on that one. Jack skelling is not even hot. Yeah, Like, he's always wearing a suit and he's like, he's like a stand up comedian who only wears suits, and you're just like, this guy, what's wrong with him? John mulaney fans and well,

shall we rate the movie on our nipple scale? So this is a scale of zero to five nipples, where we rate it based on its portrayal and representation of

women in the movie. I'm going to give this half nipple because, um, while we do see Sally make a few active choices in the movie, which some of which do kind of influence the story, but mostly not really, and she does have a few skills, but again, most of them are very stereotypically like feminine, domestic skills and she has to be saved at the end, she's all damseled and she stocks the hero. But then they kiss, which is usually how those narratives go. So it's just

you know, par for the course. But um, yeah, she she's the only woman in the town except for a few witches, and it's yeah, not not great. So one half nipple and it's going to Sally and she can probably detach it from herself. Natalie, what say, Um, is it possible to give it negative to Yes? Can I go? But like, can I invert my we do it. It's

part of the deal. No, I'm similar to what you were saying at the end, Like the fact that they had to like try to like shoehorn like a romance or any type of thing like that into this movie like just shows like what the creators of the movie thought of her the entire time. It's just like, yeah, you can give her some of these skills or some of these things are really cool. She's like really good with potions, but in the end, it was like somebody that was subservient to a dude, and you can roll

with that. Yeah, negative nipples scary. I'll go over the

half as well. The Sally character, and like all characters of like the tokenizing the female character in a movie, especially in like nineties movies, like I feel certain that Tim Burton Slash everyone involved in the writing of this movie thought they were doing a very cool, progressive, empty girl power gesture by even including Sally and the story and giving her a skill that wasn't like just being able to be fucked the end, because that is I mean,

that's like a lot of like eighties and nineties movies. There's they're like, no, it is cool, and like female characters are, she can do something. The end game for her is exactly the same, and she has no options except the end game that has been subscribed since the

beginning of time. But like, look a potion and you're just like it's it's I don't know, it's even more sinister to me because it's being sold to you is like this is progress, and you're like, this is just a more accurate representation of someone who might exist with also no options. Worth noting, though the screenplay is by a woman, Caroline Thompson, she should be in jail her last redeeming, like if she wanted to create a bunch of stembooks like for chemistry, Sally, that could be her.

Do you make fog juice? We all want to know, But well, the story was by Tim Burton, so he was probably just like He's like, I have to French kiss Johnny Depp for five hours a day or I'll die. So I'm gonna have to outsource this one. Uh yeah, half Nevel given it to the fish Lady. Great well, Natalie, thank you so much for being here. Where can people follow you online? And what would you like to plug? Yeah? So, um, I have a website Natalie McGill dot com where upcoming shows.

I'm on Twitter at Natalie s McGill and on Instagram, I'm at hoot Holler's Snap. Thank you to Pete and everyone here the Drafthouse Comedy Theater. Um listeners at home, check this place out if you're ever in town. Wonderful and give it up for yourselves. Thank you so much for coming out. Um. So that was our episode. I hope you liked it. You were feeling the energy in the room, um, and which just all my cousin. I felt her the cousin is present. So we just wanted

to say thank you again to our guest. The wonderful, Natalie Miguel, Thanks again to everyone who came out to that live show and anyone who has ever come out to any of our live shows. Always the best, always the best time. And also one more thanks to Pete and everyone at the Drafthouse Comedy Theater. So much fun.

They were so kind, Yes, so wonderful. And hey, you can follow us if you don't already on social media heard of like Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, although I am on Facebook so little these days that well, Martain Serbert is a cyber criminal. Hell been unders during the world. If you haven't heard already, Cheryl Sandberg is canceled. Lean out anyway, anyway, follow us, follow us on Facebook platforms, Yeah, you so much. Silicon Valley is actually good the show

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set them. Also get our Matren. Yes, five dollars a month for two extra episodes in December is the time to join because we are doing shitty Hallmark slash Netflix Christmas movies. What a time to be alive. I'm so excited. So everyone thinks again for listening, and you know, have a great freaking week. We cherish you have a great week, all right, Bye bye,