On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Walk a walka walkah, Jamie, uh huh yeah, any thought.
I loved it. You came in hot, you came in hot.
Well how about this one? How about this one?
Me me, me, me, me, me me. Oh see, now you're speaking my language. I love speaker so much. My god, oh my god. Welcome to the Vechtel Cast. I'm in as good a mood as possible right now because we just watched the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine and.
It's your birthday episode, Jamie, Happy birthday.
Thank you, thank you. Yes, it is indeed my birthday episode. Can't wait to live, laugh, love all over my birthday. I don't even know really what I'm like planning to do this year. I don't have any plans. It's just like a random you know, it's not an exciting birthday. So we'll see, we'll see what I choose. I think I actually kind of just want to go to knats Berry Farm. Again.
I'll go with you. I'll I'll be there.
Do you want to come? I was like, I have made zero plans, but I kind of want to go to Knots Berry Farm. I want to go see Snoopy. I feel like it would it would help. And the last slash. First time I went to Knots Berry Farm, which was also on a birthday, I knew that they were like a berry farm, but I didn't know that they put berries in like any food. Like I had berry meat loaf, okay, and it was good. I was like, what the fuck is going on in this place?
I've been so I don't know.
It's really fun. The theming is all over the place, and it's like I would say that it's a flop, but it's so kind of funny where they're like the theme is California and you're like, okay, but they're like, but Snoopies here and berries and berries. They also have their own characters, like they're trying to make their own lore, but it's like it's just not happening. They're like the Bear family. You know them, and you're like, no, who are they? And they're like the Bear family and there's
a whole ride dedicated to the Bear Family. They have an antagonist. He's the Wolf. He's trying to steal all the berries, and you're supposed to be invested in this journey they're on, and you're just like, but who the hell are they? Anyways, I bought merch. I was like, yeah, someone's got to because no one gives a shit about this Bear family. Unfortunately, I can't wait to go again. Let's go, let's go. I want to get berry meat loaf. Anyways, that my two birthday wishes are to go to Minot
Berry Farm and two. I mean, it's such a fun time of year when you get to enforce your will on the Bechdel Cast feed. It's so thrilling. What were your picks this year? You did Mister and Missus Smith. He did Mars Attacks. What was the last one?
Oh my gosh, who can remember? Not me? I don't know. I have no idea.
It's so funny because I feel like every year I'm like, ugh, I'm out of favorite movies. I can't like what I'm just gonna have to start picking random stuff. But that's the thing about movies. There's always more good ones that you don't want to shut up about So, yeah, this is my main feed pick and then we'll also have some other picks going on the Patreon aka Matreon, which you can check out.
Oh wait, it was Monsters Inc. Was my other birthday pick.
Yeah, all bangers, all bangers and yeah, so before we get into the episode about the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine, parentheses not the Jason Siegal one. Even though it's fine, I feel like people are like people remember that movie less charitably than they should because they don't like Jason Segull. And I get it.
He is in the movie too much.
Yes, he's in the movie way too much. And he has just like him. And I was thinking about this a lot recently because of just like the terror that has been the advertising campaign for Harold and the Purple Crayon. But like he and Zachary Levi, they like share this like bizarre aura of menace to me more so Zachary Levi, I really feel like there's like something You're not quite right with him. I know, he's like he makes me uneasy.
Same the Shazam thing. Wait, I think about your Shazam Shazam incident.
You mean the time that I went to go see Shazam one with our dear friend Bryant, and that there was someone in the elevator with us after the movie who had also just seen Shazam, and he's.
Like, that was so fun.
Did you guys like it? And not being able to pick up on social here's very well. Sometimes I was like, I thought it fucking sucked and it was flimsy storytelling and it was visually bad and everything about it sucked. And the guy's like, oh, I liked it. Brian's behind me being like, Kitlyn, shut the fuck up.
I think that in that interaction, everyone wins like I was.
Right to there express my opinion. What oh two men went to silence a femme person. No, I'm gonna say my thoughts.
And everyone got a great story out of that. So there's no, there's nothing wrong. But yeah, no, Zachary Levi Aora of Menace, Jason Siegel a little bit less. So anyways, the Muppet movie itself, I think, oh, well, what is it? They gave it the same title, don't I think it's called the Muppets, that one the Muppets. It's a fine movie, but we're not talking about it today. We're talking about real oh O G Muppet lore. But before we do that, and six four minutes into the episode, Welcome to the
Bechtel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus.
My name is Caitlin Donte. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. Which you know, it's a birthday episode. We don't really have time to get into that. We are too busy having fun talking about the Muppets. So you can just look up the Bechdel tell in your own time, or listen to any of our other five hundred fucking episodes.
Google it.
I don't think this is sorry to be hostile about it.
No, but there's You've had five hundred opportunities to get it together for today, and so you know, I just like, don't even really know what to say to you. After all we've been through. It's been eight years. Say something in eighty four years.
Well, basically, here's something that does pass the Bechdel test if you learn by example, Hey Jamie m hmmm, Hey Caitlyn houpid birth I'm like, are you gonna do that? Happy birthday? Happy Muppet movie Day?
Thank you, and that would pass, and that.
Passed the backdel test. Okay, Yeah, anyway, Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie Slash the Muppets in general?
I love this movie and I love the Muppets, pretty short story, always have, always will This movie in particular, I don't think I saw until like a little later on. I feel like the Muppet content I had spinning in my home outside of Sesame Street obviously, which almost feels
like it's own thing. Yeah, but I was like raised on the Muppet movies that were coming out when I was a kid, So I'm thinking Muppet Treasure Island, Muppets in Space, Oh my gosh, there's that Muppet Christmas Carol, like the ones that were more recent, and so I think it was like a little later, and by later, I mean I was probably ten, like when I saw the older Muppet movies, Great Muppet Caper, the Muppet Movie,
Muppets Take Manhattan, et cetera. And then it wasn't until college that I saw The Muppet Show, which for a long time was like pretty hard to at least unless you like bought the DVDs or whatever, like, was pretty hard to access. And at least for what I could tell, they weren't like re aired very often, and so then I sort of had a second run of really being into the Muppets in college, when I found, God, this
is gonna make me sound so fucking old. I found a lot of old Muppet Show episodes on dailymotion dot com, and I watched them and like really fell in love with like deep Muppet loer and like how funny and edgy and cool they were. I watched the Jason Siegel Muppet movies. The first one I was like into, especially because do you remember the cultural moment, Kaitlin when we were all so excited that Brett from Flight of the Concords won an Oscar for his Muppet song. Yes, we
were excited about that. I was excited about that. I was there the Tina Fe Mumpet one. I was like, eh, not as much.
Most wanted wanted.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't too wild about it was definitely not wild about their like weird the office ripoff that they aired.
I didn't even know that existed until watching a video essay, which we'll bring up later on. But yeah, because it was not on my radar at all.
It was a mess. I don't know why that was so very on my radar, but I was watching that show week to week wo and I remember the like backlash of I mean, it's so funny. I Okay, this is my birthday episode and I have COVID and my dad died, so this is gonna be like a Vibes episode.
But I do like, if my brain was working as normal, I do think that there's like an element of like the brief amount of time that quote unquote Kermit and Miss Piggy broke up being very similar to the times that quote unquote Barbie and Ken broke up, where they are like an iteration of like they have to be dating forever. And there are times canonically and they're definitely with Kermit and Miss Piggy where I think it's Muppets Take Manhattan where at the end they canonically get married.
But there's just an element to That's something I really love about the Muppet World is like there's this element to it where the relationship dynamics remain the same, but things just like reset every once in a while, and it's like, oh, sure, maybe it's like cathartic for some people to see Miss Piggy and Kermit get married, but in the next movie they're just dating again and like
they're having the same relationship problems. And there's like this kind of cyclical nature to the world of the Muppets that I really love and find comforting and I just love them. Caitlin, who are your top muppets? I'm really having a hard time, Like it's hard to choose, but I have like a few muppets that I'm like, I will ride for them, and a few muppets that I'm like overrated. And it's gonna be controversial.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. There are probably many muppets that I don't know about or know well enough to say, because when I share my history with the Muppets, you'll find that I have not been exposed to as much Muppet media, okay as you perhaps. But my favorites are Gonzo, Rizzo, the Rat, I like Ralph, and I'm a big fan of Statler and Waldorf.
I mean, how could you not they rock?
Yeah, so I think those are my faves.
Okay, how about you my faves are? I mean, it feels almost like a kapa to be like, I love Kur but I.
Do well as you can and should Kermit and.
Miss Piggy unequivocally. I also love Rizzo. I also love Statler and Waldorf. I think Beaker is probably my favorite, of course, he's probably my all time favorite Muppet.
And I like the Swedish Chef too.
The Swedish Chef is awesome.
And I like Fazzy Bear.
Okay, see that's where we're gonna have. I hate Fozzy Bear.
I just love a bear, you know, a bear who likes a sweet treat.
Fozzy Bear is so triggering for me. Think of how many delusional comedians we've spent time around fair I just think Fozzy Bear like there is such a beauty to the Muppets world. Of like they're always pursuing this dream. They're always like very positive and very encouraging. And I feel like Fozzy Bear disrupts that from me because I think he should quit. I think he like his dreams could only come true completely by chance or by riding the coattails. He's talentless, he's annoying.
Huh.
I just like don't really support his dreams coming true. I just like, don't.
I think I just like a bear and a hat a Lah Paddington.
Okay, yes that's fair, but it's like I just like think that Fozzy Bear like doesn't deserve success and I resent him.
I resent him, but I mean we see his like shtick in this movie and it does suck very badly. So okay, I I could be swayed against Fozzy Bear.
I think Fozzy Bear to me represents every bad stand up I've ever had to spend time with and like tacitly encourage and I resent that. Yeah, it's just like, you know what, no Fozzy Bar like quit, learn a trade, get out like your art has no play. And I resent Fozzy Bear because he's more successful than me.
Okay, so we're getting somewhere.
Now household name. He has a household name and we're not. And that's fucked up and it represents a lot of what's wrong with America is Fozzy Bear. He sucks. I don't like Fozzy Bear. I think that's really my only controversial ralph. I like, but I feel like he's like a problematic favorite.
Well especially his conduct.
His conduct, his conduct, And I would say that I since I was a kid, I love the band, I love Janice.
Okay, yeah, I love.
Animal, but I didn't really remember or realize that animal like really was I mean, obviously the elements of his character. He's loud, he screams one word, he's like a Pokemon on meth, but that he's a bit misogynist in these early iterations I kind of forgot. I kind of forgot.
I think that a lot of the Muppets low key don't like women.
And whether this how to do with the fuck that the Muppet creative team is all men and we can't be sure and we can't be sure, but anyways, yes, there's a lot to be discussed. I also was thinking, Okay, maybe I'm just thinking about the Scooby Doo of it all, but there was I'm trying to think, if we can
think of a third example of this, it's a thing. Okay, maybe it's just a coincidence, but in this movie we meet like Kermit's nephew, Scrabby Doo is Scooby Doo's nephew, Like, I can't think of what is that the uncle nephew relationship? Being like critical, I don't know.
Well, I mean there's Scrooge McDuck is that his name? And then his nephews Huey, Dewey, and Louie.
It's interesting. I don't have a specific thought on it, but it's like all movies are about fathers and sons, but every once in a while they're about uncles and nephews. WHOA makes you think it's kind of interesting. I mean, Robin the Frog doesn't really have much of a role in this except to be like, hey, Uncle Kermit, is this a movie? And He's like, yes, m hm. Anyways, I hate Fozzy Bear. I just wanted to get that out of the way at the top.
Point while taken and I'm finding myself less enthusiastic about Fozzy so.
And I would just say to all of the fans, like Fozzy fans, do not interact with me. I don't want to hear from you. I'm not interested in the counter argument. Like I've heard it all. You're not gonna sell me on him?
Yeah, okay, fair period. My history with the Muppets, yes, I like the Muppets a lot, although a lot of what I know about them comes either from cultural osmosis or specifically the Muppet Christmas Carol, which is my favorite holiday movie of all time. But I haven't really consumed a whole lot of other Muppet media. And if there are Muppets who weren't in the Muppet Christmas Carol, I
have no idea who they are. For example, Wow, I was on a kickball team when I lived in Boston, Brag that was called the Electric Mayhem, and I had no idea that that was a Muppets reference for the entire like three years that I was on that kickball team.
I think that that is a deceptively like deep Cut.
I think I thought so too, But they're also like popular enough that people named kickball team after them. Anyway, I have seen a few of the other Muppet movies, especially Muppet Treasure Island. Although there's a Muppet Treasure Island video game like a computer like you put in your little CD ROM and there was a video game that I played way more than I watched the movie. I
think I've seen Muppets Take Manhattan. I thought I had seen the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine, but as I was watching it for the episode, you hadn't seen it. Nothing was familiar. Yeah, I think this was my first time.
Wow, oh that's so fun.
And then I did see The Muppets twenty eleven and Muppets most wanted twenty fourteen. But yeah, I never really saw any of the shows that existed, aside from you know, Sesame Street. But again like specifically like shows revolving around these Muppet characters. Haven't watched any of those shows. Yeah, only watched a handful of the movies. So yeah, really it's Muppet Christmas, Carol.
Wow, I don't know why I thought you had a closer connection with the Muppets. That's like, that's fascinating. Muppet's Treasure Island was definitely a moment. I remember, like, my cousin Chloe had the VHS and one of the only true fights I remember getting into with her was over who could marry Jim from Muppet Treasure Island. Uh huh, and it could only be one of us, And we got into a huge fight about it and I lost because she pushed me and started making out with the
TV screen. When Jim from Mubbet Treasure Island was on, I'd been bested and children are amazing.
I think that was the first movie that I saw Tim Curry in and I was like, oh's this He's an icon.
I love him, Tim Curry, I mean iconic icon there. I also was really. I mean the Muppet movie, the one we're talking about today is such a fun Like in the years, I feel like every time I watched this movie, I recognize one person I didn't recognize before because it's like the Who's Who of the seventies.
Kind of yeah and.
Yeah, it's so fun. Richard Pryor is in this movie. Elliott Gould. Elliott Gould is in multiple Muppet movies.
I'm not kidding.
Yeah, I think he's also in them. It's take Manhattan. I think he was maybe just a fan.
Oh well, like celebrities like when the show was airing in the seventies, like they were lining up to be guest stars on The Muppet Show.
I read, it's really amazing. I mean, I was thinking the same thing about I recently rewatched the Pee Wee Herman Christmas Special from nineteen eighty eight, and it's like, I know that now we think of that as like some random show from the late eighties early nineties, but kind of the same deal at the time where it was like everyone was in this where like Oprah Winfrey was on it would be Goldberg, Grace Jones, little Richard, like Frankie Avalanche, like share like every single share of
Mama Mia two fame, her most famous credit besides the Pee's Christmas Special, Like, yeah, it was just like every
single person Josha Gabor whoa. It's just like it's really fun revisiting stuff like that, even if they're not like celebrities that connect for you, which certainly the Muppet Movie one, none of them, I'm like, oh cool, But it is cool seeing like something that is very wholesome and kind, you know, drawing in so many people I know, right, and it's like a cool time capsule, Like I feel like I sort of get nineteen seventy nine ish, and also just like I feel like the celebrity cameos are
very well paced in this too, where it's like at the very end of the movie, you hit Orson Wells, a person you never think will appear in am up At movie, and there he is, and there he is. Wild.
It's giving them a contract to be rich and famous. So cool. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and recap it. Yeah, we'll be right back.
And we're back.
Walka waka waka waka. Here we go. This is the movie.
Here we go again, Here we go again. We walka here can we get again? Wow? I Caitlyn, I have to say I feel like I have not given due attention to the fact that I hope that this opens a Muppet era for you, because what I've found is that like I saw Muppets Take Manhattan in theaters recently, like they still pretty frequently reshow these movies for like children's matinees, but still counts.
Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, I want to see more of the movies certainly, so I'll make it a point to do that.
I'll come with anytime.
Excellent. In the meantime, here is the story for the Muppet Movie nineteen seventy nine, which is framed as an origin story for how the Muppets came together and got their big break. So this is that story. We open on the lot of a movie studio where there's a private screening of the Muppet Movie that all the Muppets have gathered to watch. So it's very meta. They're watching the movie that they're in.
Which is the whole point. I mean, that's all of the Muppet Show is like they're so good at doing behind the scenes like showbiz stuff. It's awesome.
Yeah, and the whole Gang is there. We've got Kermit the Frog, We've got Miss Piggy, Fozzy Boo, Gonzo is there, the Electric Mayhem, Statler and Waldorf. You know, all the Muppets you know and love, except for Rizzo the Rat. Where's he? What the fuck?
I don't know. I wonder if this pre dates Rizzo. I wonder, let's say, let's pick up with the Rizzo the Rat Wikipedia page, because I did a fair amout of research.
Okay, so wait, I just remember something that's a part of my history. One of my favorite Muppets is Muppets Wizard of Oz Oh.
Yes with a shanty, Yes, Yes, that's really good. That was like one of the more modern ones that I remember watching that because it like aired on TV.
Yeah, I saw it on DVD, but I loved it. I thought it was hilarious. When I watched it in like two thousand and six or.
Something, it was really cute. And this is okay, I know that this is a very common whatever, it's a birthday episode. You have to deal with it if you're listening, it's a very common criticism. But the fact that Disney bought Jim Henson Studios and the Muppets like ip I want to say, well over ten years ago. Now it was in two thousand and four, got twenty years ago. Yeah, and they have yet to really do very much with it.
I mean not that there hasn't been attempts. They know that there have been Disney Plus shows, some of which have been good Netflix shows, stuff like that, but in terms of a huge return to form, I feel like the Jason Siegel movies were kind of it, and that the rest have either been like under performed or been underpromoted,
or there's just I don't know. It makes me sad that the Muppets are right there and they're so like rife for I don't know, you look at like I haven't seen it, but like how well meta comedy plays in the general market, where like Deadpool just made a billion dollars and he's fucking annoying, and meanwhile Kerment's rotting like a whole cast of beloved characters that do meta Hollywood commentary like historically better than most just not being put to use at all. It just is a damn shame.
I checked and Rizzo the Rat does not debut till nineteen eighty, so that is why this is happening, because I do know that at the end, which I can't wait to talk about, the very very end of the Muppet Movie where it's that huge crowd of Muppets sort of doing the reprise of the Rainbow Connection that included every single Muppet that had ever been canonically introduced up until that time. So it was like two hundred and
fifty muppets and Rizzo just unfortunately did not quite exist yet. Also, did you know that Rizzo is based on a character in Midnight Cowboy?
Was it the Dustin Hoffman character?
Yes, yes, because his name is ratso Rizzo. Yeah, so they made a rat named Rizzo, and.
That's wild.
We can't get into Rizzo lord today because he wasn't there, but it's like, really, let that sink in.
Wall, especially because Midnight Cowboy, I think, is technically an X rated movie, so for them to make a reference, well.
Yeah, because it was too gay for nineteen sixty nine.
Yeah, so that's amazing. I love that detail me too.
I'm smiling.
Anyway, So the Muppet start watching the movie, which opens on Kermit in a swamp singing about the Rainbow Connection, and he's approached in a boat by a guy named Bernie who turns out to be a big Hollywood agent who recognizes Kermit's talent and tells him about an audition for frogs who are looking to become rich and famous, and Kermit is intrigued by m HM on his way home, where Kermit is riding a bicycle which is a pretty awesome special effect.
Which had never happened before. Like, it was a huge moment. I think it is considered one of the great moments in cinema. And I don't even think I'm joking.
No, you're not, and it's true.
Yeah.
Anyway, he rides past a billboard advertising a restaurant, Doc Hopper's French fried frog Legs, and Kermit is like, what the fuck is that? Then he wanders into a bar called El sleiezo Awsa where Fozzy Bear is doing prop comedy, but the audience hates him, so Kermit jumps up on
stage to try to help him. They start dancing, which is seen by Doc Hopper, the owner of that frog leg restaurant, played by Charles Derning along with his minion Max It's true, played by someone who is a Muppets person, like he's a.
Yeah, it's some inside baseball kind of guy. I honestly it with all due respect Austin Pendleton. Oh oh, and he also is the voice of Kermit's nephew.
Oh okay wow, so uh anyway, that's Max. He's a minion. He's the the Kevin, if you will of the group. They see Kermit dancing and Doc Hopper is like a wooga, who's that Frog's that fack? Meanwhile, Kermit invites Fozzy to come with him to Hollywood, so they set off in Fozzy's uncle's studebaker. But Doc Copper is following them, and he approaches Kermit to try to get him to be the spokesperson, or rather spokes frog for his frog Leg restaurant. But Kermit is like hard pass and he and Fozzy
continue on their way. You might even say they're moving right along.
And I'm willing to put my feelings about Fozzy Bear aside to say that this is an amazing song.
It's pretty good, yeah it is. After another run in with Doc Copper, Kermit and Fozzy stop at a church where a band of musical muppets called the Electric Mayhem is playing We've Got Doctor Teeth, Janice Animal the others. They're there and they're like, what brings you here? So Kermit gives them the screenplay for the Muppet movie that we are currently watching so that the band can be brought up to speed.
Hilarious joke, I know, And it's so like. I do think that a lot of the gags that the Muppets do would be annoying to me if it was not Muppets doing.
Them, if it was Deadpool for example.
Again, yes, I think if you apply, because unfortunately I don't like to say this, but they're pulling from the same meta playbook. But when Deadpool does it, it's it hits a little bit different, even if you like it, you know. And I'm over thirty now, you know, I can't be like, if you like Deadpool, shut the hell like you know, who cares. But the Muppets do it better.
They do it better. I will say that I did see Deadpool and Wolverine, and the jokes that I liked the best were the like meta Hollywood commentary jokes about Disney, jokes about MCU within the movie. Those are the jokes I tended to find the funniest. So maybe I have a small brain. I don't know, No, you.
Don't have a small brain. I think, like the thing that really hits for me, I mean, I think it's
just easier and more fun to watch a puppet do anything. Sure, but also I mean my at least my understanding, unless I'm not fully understanding the business situation at the time, is that like part of what bugs me about Deadpool is that, I mean, first of all, he's annoying, right, fine, but that that same company that's making the stuff he's making fun of is profiting off of making fun of the thing that where it's like, yeah, he's in the MCU, the same people profit off of him talking about how
MCU movies suck. And at least the Muppets not that they were like outsider, like they were underdogs. They were unbelievably popular at this time, but they weren't owned by Disney. You know, It's like they were still sort of like doing their own thing, which is like maybe a little more palatable and maybe just for me, funnier. But yeah, without doubt, I love the Electric Mayhem. They're so good, They're so fun. I love Janet. Don't you love Janet?
I don't know there's something Sorry, Janet, I'm dire again because they weren't in Muppet Christmas, Carol. I don't know them, and I don't really feel one way or the other about them. Sorry. I also don't like the design of most of those puppets.
Here's something that I was gonna bring up later, but I think that something we talk about very frequently in like children's media and animation is that there's a very gendered approach to the design of the characters. And I think that the Muppets are, like, they straddle kind of an interesting line here where I feel like they are but also are doing it less than normal where the very comparatively few, because you do sort of have a like smurf aspect to like, why is this Muppet world
so dominated by men? Like you know, and the women you see are very you know, femme presenting. But I appreciate that when there are women in fem muppet characters that they can still look fucking weird, Like it doesn't just look like a sexy adult woman. True, like we've talked about in a million children and animated properties, where it's like it's so absurd to think of a woman looking not you know, Western beauty standard hot, which I know it's like that is definitely arguable in the way
that Miss Piggy is presented and all this stuff. But like, I like that Janice looks comparably weird to the rest of the.
Band fair But yeah, I uh, even though I was on a kick team named after them, I'm just like, eh, whatever.
I love Caitlin Lore, I love it. Where did you guys play?
We played this park just outside of Harvard Square, so every Sunday I would ride my bike to the park. My team was so good, and one year we went to the National Championships in Vegas. What Yeah?
How did I not know this?
That was the first time I ever went to Vegas. I flew there from Boston.
I like, oh my god, that's so cool.
So I could not afford it because I just started grad school, but I was like, this is my one chance to go to Vegas. I have to. It was my bikeball team.
That's so cool.
Yeah yeah, so how did you all do? So it was like a tournament of I forget how many teams, but we definitely lost and were like eliminated in the first round of games. But that was okay because I just like hung out by the pool the rest more time.
To spend in Vegas. That rocks. Oh my god.
Yeah, yeah, fun little fact about me.
You are the most successful athlete. I know.
I should be in the Olympics.
You should, you should. Have you seen that TikTok trend? Oh god, me stunning a thousand years old again? But have you seen that TikTok trend that boils down to Unfortunately I have not been admitted to the Paris Olympics twenty twenty four. And it's just like people reposting them sucking at high school sports.
No, I have not seen this.
It's mostly gymnastics in swimming clips of just like someone accidentally belly flopping or like jumping on the balance beam and getting their crotch just shattered. But pretty fun. I love I love it.
Yeah, okay, well.
Anyways, the Muppet movie, Am I right?
You are so right? So basically, now the Electric Mayhem know what's happening and why Kermit and Fozzy are there, and they want to help Kermit avoid Doc Copper, so they paint Fozzy's Studa baker so that Doc Copper won't recognize the car. Kermit then invites the band to accompany them to Hollywood, but they decline, so Kermit and Fozzy head out on the road again. This time they run into Gonzo and his chicken wife. His chicken wife.
Okay, that is that's canon. That's okayre dating Cannon.
I see.
Yeah, Camilla and Gonzo are end game. And it's interesting because we just before this recorded or intro to Chicken Run, and I feel like Camilla has the juice, she has the riz to be treated like a Chicken run chicken and she's and we should be talking about that.
Well, she comes up in my notes later on.
So thank god, thank god, me too. We'll circle back, yes we will.
But Gonzo wants to be a movie star. We don't know what Camilla wants because no one checks in with her.
Yeah, we were not supposed to care.
Yeah, it's all about what Gonzo wants, and so he and Camilla join them On the trip to Hollywood. The group stops at a used car lot to get a bigger car. They also stop at a county fair where Miss Piggy is competing in and wins a beauty pageant, and the moment she sees Kermit, it's love at first sight. She imagines her life with Kermit. They meet and Kermit invites Miss Piggy to join him for ice cream, but she mistakes this for an invitation to go with them
to Hollywood. But before they can really clear that up, Gonzo flies away because he's holding a bunch of balloons.
Yeah he goes full up mud.
Yeah, for sure. Everyone piles in the car to catch him, which they do after a near run in with Doc Copper, who is still following them with his minion Max, although Max is starting to have misgivings about this whole thing. Meanwhile, Miss Piggy is lusting after Kermit, and she suggests they stop so that she and Kermit can have a romantic dinner. Steve Martin is their server.
Because it's nineteen seventy nine and these sorts of things would happen.
Yes, she steps away to answer a call from her agent, but then it seems like she leaves all together and stands Kermit up, so he is sad, and then he starts talking to the piano player Ralph, who sings a song about women you can't live with them, you can't live without him, and we're like, okay, feminist icon, Ralph.
Come on, Ralph, it's not right.
Then Kermit learns that Miss Piggy is gone because Doc Hopper abducted her, and then he kidnaps Kermit too, and.
We're like, oh, no, is this going to be a damsel in situation? And you're like, well, let them cook, let them cook. Give it a second.
Yeah, but Hopper has hired a Nazi doctor played by mel Brooks.
Which I think is a pre existing character from mel Brooks. I'm fairly certain he'd played versions of this character before, probably and in fact, now that I say it, I think he in fact played a version of this character on The Muppet Show.
Oh, okay, previously.
So I think this if you were seeing this in nineteen seventy nine, you were a Muppets fan, this would have been a callback to mel Brooks playing said Nazi doctor, which is like in his catalog of character as is not unheard of.
Wherever, right, because the producers had already come out.
That's a good question. I think it might have. Yeah, I think that that was the late sixties, Yeah, nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, so this was I mean, this was like if you were a Melbrooks fan, and obviously if you live under a rock, he's a Jewish comedian, like This was very much in his playbook. It's a little to story I take in the middle of a Muppet movie. But I think even if you were a Muppet fan, this would have been a callback to an episode he'd already done with them.
Got it okay? In any case, he has been hired by Doc Hopper to brainwash Kermit so that he will agree to be in Doc Hopper's commercials. But Miss Piggy breaks loose and does her signature hey yeah, chop kick move iconic to attack the doctor and all of the minions, and she saves Kermit, but then she immediately bails on him because her agent calls and offers her a commercial.
This is why we love Miss Piggy so much, is because she's trying to have it all and it's not quite possible.
Exactly, but she's career first. She chooses career.
It's awesome. When she's like, well, I have to go. I got a commercial. Yeah, He's like, yeah, she's awesome.
H So anyway, Kermit and friends head back on the road, stands Miss Piggy plus Ralph, but they come upon Piggy hitchhiking to Hollywood, so they pick her up again. Although Kermit is a bit sour that she left him, and fair enough, yeah, I'm excited to talk about their relationship because for me, it's kind of all over the place.
But anyway, they're in the car, but it breaks down, so they have to camp for the night in the desert and they realize that they're probably not going to make it to this Hollywood audition which is the next day, and Kermit thinks it's all his fault and that he has let his friends down. Plus Doc Copper has hired a specialist to kill Kermit if he doesn't agree to be in the commercials. So things are looking pretty low for Kermit the Frog, but then the Electric Mayhem shows
up in their tour bus. They knew where to find the group because they read the screenplay to the Muppet movie that Kermit had left behind, so they show up and they all set off in the bus. They get pulled over by a cop who turns out to be Doc Copper's minion Max, who wants to warn them about this like frog killer. That's after Kermit and Kermit decides to have a showdown with Doc Hopper because he's tired of running away. He's gonna face his bully.
Yeah.
So they head to this ghost town where Kermit meets doctor Bunsen, Honeydow and his assistant Beaker.
And at that point it's such a relief because you're like, is Baker going to be in the movie, and you know, two ors of the way in, they're like, not to worry, Beaker is on the way.
M hmm, yep, and he's like me, me, me, me me.
And you're like, what a legend. And something I love about Beaker that I feel like in the last ten years we've really lost sight of is that I don't need to know anything more about Beaker than I already know. I feel like in the modern context, they're like, Okay, let's do a very serious limited series about how Beeker came to me. Me Me, me me, And it's like, I actually don't I don't need to know. I just feel like Baker comes through to me so clearly that it's not a big deal.
We need no more information, say no more, I get it. In any case, doctor Bunsen and Beaker have developed these insta grow pills that make anything temporarily huge, and we're like, hmm, wonder how that's gonna pay off?
This is also echoed in Minion's one when Kevin gets so big, Oh my gosh, you're right, whoa. But in this case animal gets so big and yeah, it all sort of yeah comes back true.
So what happens is Doc Hopper shows up and there's this like cowboy standoff thing between him and Kermit, and Doc Hopper is about to kill Kermit, but then Animal, who has eaten one of those instagrow pills, is suddenly huge and it scares Doc Hopper and his minions away. So the Muppets are free to travel the rest of the way to Hollywood, and they enter the office of a producer named lou Lord played by Orson Wells.
Awesome, just so awesome.
It's so funny because Kermit's like, uh, we're here to be rich and famous, and then Orson Wells, you know, he looks very stony faced and stoic, and he's.
He's like Orson Wells, like he's like very he is old Hollywood.
It's awesome, true, and you think he's gonna be like, who the fuck are you guys? Get out of here, but instead he's like my assistant played by Cloris Leachman drop the rich and famous contract and we're like, yay, they didn't even have to audition. That's how good the Muppets are.
Yeah, Orson Wells, I mean Orson Wells could spot raw Is. It's just like, ugh, it's so awesome.
Yeah, and he is pretty much real life lou Grade, who is the producer who financed the Muppet Movie in real life. So another meta joke here. Then we cut to the Muppets starting production on the Muppet Movie. They're doing the reprise of the Rainbow Connection, and then we flash forward back to the screening room where all of the Muppets are watching the finished movie. And that's the end of the Muppet Movie. So let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.
And we're back before we jump into the nitty gritty discussion, I just like I watched this movie early this year, which normally, I mean I've watched it like maybe once every five years, but earlier this year happened to get into a Muppet hole because I found out that my boyfriend had never seen most of like really any Muppet movie before. He hadn't seen them like any Muppet movies or the Muppet Show, and so I was like Oh,
this is good. And then at the New Beverly they were doing an afternoon matinee of Muppets Take Manhattan, and it all just felt very kis meant, and so I was like showing him the Great Muppet Ouvra, and we watched this movie. And so I've been thinking, They've just been on my mind a lot this year, and I
really really love the end scene to this movie. I think it's so like poignant and so special where I don't know anythink this happens like pretty frequently with the Muppets Gang, where they're always pursuing this dream, they're always underdogs, and any other movies it's even more emphasized that they are these underdogs who want to make it big, and then eventually they do after Kermit has an existential crisis,
which I also love. But how at the end of this movie, they like get everything they ever wanted, they like achieve this dream, and then it all collapses and it's essentially like a return to their underdogs again. They like have gotten everything they ever wanted, and yet for some reason their set collapses and they've completely failed and
like their movie isn't going to happen. And then it's still okay, and it's like they're just going to start pursuing it again and somehow this like grand failure at the end of the movie is all a part of what the plan was the whole time. And then they turned to the camera and you know, it's like there's this very reassuring, pure wonderful thing. I can't think of
many movies that do that. One of my favorite movies does School of Rock, where like these scrappy, this scrappy group like gets to the very time, they get further than you would ever imagine, and then they still fail and it's like they're still reveling in like the joy of that failure and how it brought them together. And I just think that's really beautiful. It's one of my favorite things about movies at all is that that life is full of these setbacks, and that is also part
of what makes life very interesting. So I love that this movie ends on a like a huge win with the like Orson Wells thing and they get to make their movie, but then you know, they kind of don't, but then they sort of do.
But then they do because they're watching the movie that they made in the screening.
Room exactly exactly. I really love the sequence where the set falls and they don't panic because after the set falls there's something beautiful and the rainbow comes in and it's all corny, but I just like it. I don't know. Both times I've seen it this year, it made me very emotional because that's so cool and it feels very
connected to just general Jim Henson lore. I'm really interested in Jim Henson lore and like how many false starts and how challenging it was for him to get even that far in making Muppet stuff, where I think most people thought he would have talked out at creating Sesame Street and that there was no adult market for what he was doing, and just the sort of like stops and starts and really trying to make it happen, and this movie being such an amazing example of like, no,
it really really worked, but it was still punctuated by all these failures. I just love it. I find it very inspiring and sweet and just like a cool universal thing. I love them Uppets.
Did I tell you so? There was this show that would happen in La called Comedian Cinema Club that we would occasionally participate in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so basically it was comedians loosely recreating the plots of specific movies, but it was like a lot of improv and you were just sort of doing it from memory.
It was so fun.
It was super fun. And one time when I was doing it, we were doing the movie Labyrinth. Oh I remember that, and someone from the Jim Henson Studio in La came to watch that show and then they invited the whole cast of comedians who performed on the show to the Jim Henson Studio. So we all went and like all like private tour. Yeah, it was super cool. It's a small, tiny little studio, but it's in all these like cool little bungalows.
Yeah. Yeah, I've passed it a million times. And I think it's closing too, which is really sad.
Ah, that would be so sad. Yeah, but yeah, that you like go in different rooms. This is a lot of like you know, production offices, but there's a lot of like familiar models of the Muppets and other you know, Sesame Street characters and things like that. They're like, wow, look at that little guy. Anyway, it was fun.
It really is incredible how much of an impact and like Jim Henson. I something I would really I'll send the links to so we can include it in the
notes to this episode. Is there is a real I mean, there's been a lot written about Jim Henson's life, and I don't mean to single any single thing out, but the thing that was easiest for me to consume and I really enjoyed was a few years back, probably a while ago, now defunct Land, one of my favorite YouTube channels, did an incredible multi part analysis and documentary on Jim
Henson's life and legacy. And he was an extremely flawed person, as anyone is, but just the fact that in like such a short amount of time he was able to make such an incredible impact is just really special and
really cool. And I don't know, I know, it's like not part of what this show is to be like this man, but like it's really it's really fun and I feel like that as we'll get into Also, for me, very much applies to Frank Oz, who is thankfully still with us and has been a fixture in so much iconic work in the last you know, fifty sixty years, especially because he's miss Piggy and like all of the stuff that comes with that. So I don't know, do we want to start with Miss Piggy.
Let's start with Miss Piggy.
Now, listen, here's the thing. Is Miss Piggy an emotionally abusive partner M I would say maybe, yes, yes, but I love her.
I would say, she's also physically abusive at times, and she's not good at respecting boundaries.
I agree, I agree. I think on paper it doesn't look good for her. But I feel like Miss Piggy is a character like that is so rooted in camp and satire and catharsis. It is like this is being consumed by children, and I certainly hope that young fems were not karate chopping their male counterparts after this. But I also don't think that a lot of people are mapping their relationship goals on Kermit and Miss Piggy. I
don't know. I could be wrong about that, but because the Muppets have historically been consumed by children and adults, it feels to me like Miss Piggy is a character that is like rooted in subversion and in camp and doing something you wouldn't expect, and in some ways that
beat to beat it does not always hold up. But I really appreciate the spirit of her character where she's rooted in this, you know, like can't be There's a great video essay that I know we've both watched by be Kind Rewind, who is just like so wonderful about the history of who Miss Piggy is and how rooted she is in all of these like Hollywood divas of the twentieth century, especially old Hollywood divas, and this very glamorous woman trying to have it all, who's very over
the top and all of this stuff, and like there's so many references to past movie and movies and history to who she is at her core. What I really love about Mss Piggy is that she is a character who very much wants a career and wants success and wants a romantic relationship. And I feel like that is like, at its course, something we do not get very much of.
We're very often presented with someone who is very motivated towards one or the other, and it's a very common experience to want both and even as over the top. And yes, do I think that, You know, It's like if I'm writing a dissertation on do I think Kermit and Miss Piggy have a healthy relationship, no, But I think that the spirit of what she's doing of like trying to have a relationship where she can love and
feel loved and pursue a dream aggressively. It's like, it's cool, it's rare, and I feel like in most situations, especially from the group of women in Stars that she's pulling from, these people don't often get to have it all. They get one or the other and it's their tragic downfall
either way. And Miss Piggy, in the way that this universe resets, resets and resets, she does have it all for the most part, and she's often striving towards one thing or the other, but you know that there is a certain amount of security and like she will achieve her dream, she will have the relationship that she wants.
And I think like it's weirdly cathartic and nice, especially because she is so intensely herself where you know, and in order to be loved, she doesn't have to compromise who she is, and I really appreciate that about her. I think, yeah, bet to Beat it's imperfect, extremely but that's.
Also cool because so many characters who are women are presented in this pretty like one dimensional way, is is they don't have any flaws because like the men writing these characters sure haven't given enough thought to the women they're writing that they don't seem like fully formed people with strengths and flaws. But both in her pursuit of like success in show business and her relationship with Kermit,
like she's fucking up a lot of the time. Yeah, and that's also refreshing to see a woman not be perfect again and again.
And still be loved. M However, I do think, especially because this is like fairly early into Miss Piggy's tenure, I guess yeah, And I know that the character has been revised to sort of meet the expectations of the time repeatedly up until about almost ten years ago in twenty fifteen, when this shitty ABC mockumentary show was being released in twenty fifteen, and Miss Piggy wrote an op ed for Time Magazine called Miss Piggy, Why I Am
a feminist pig? And this character has been revised and updated so many times to sort of meet whatever cultural moment is required in a way that feels for the most per genuine And I think that in seventy nine. She is very subversive, but also like, yeah, at every phase of Kermit and Piggy's relationship, Kermit does feel sort of bullied into their relationship. Yes, every time I see a troubling moment with Kermit and Piggy, I'm sort of
like they should go to couples counseling. I'm sure they have canonically at least once, because it does seem like he loves.
Her sometimes and other times he's like, get away from me or so That's why I think their relationship is all over the place, at least in the confines of this movie. Right, We don't meet Miss Piggy until about forty minutes into the movie. Up until then, I mean, we see Janice briefly and as a problem, but other than that, there are no other muppets of a marginalized gender until Miss Piggy is introduced again about forty minutes into the movie. She wins the beauty pageant. She sees
Kermit and is immediately smitten. She imagines her whole life with him. Kermitt has no such dream sequenced as far as any like longing to be with Piggy forever. He notices her, but it's not like he is. He doesn't
reciprocate this like crush right away. And we have also seen Kermit invite every other muppet that he has encountered on this trip to Hollywood, including muppets that he barely interacts with, such as Sweetums, who is the like person sized muppet at the car dealership which I left out of the recap. But they like barely even talk to.
Him, but still a relevant character, yes, and.
Also so sad when they're like, do you want to come? And then he runs away to like grab his suitcase, but then they thought he was like rejecting them, so they drove away, and then he comes back to be like wait.
Not too dissimilar from what happens with Miss Piggy, where like in this case, miss Piggy misunderstands. I mean they both misunderstand.
Right, It's just that Sweetems needs to learn to use his words a little bit better. But what struck me about the Miss Piggy situation is that, like, why wouldn't Kermit, who knows that Miss Piggy has aspirations of becoming a performer and a star and all of this, why wouldn't he invite her along and instead she invites herself along. And is there a gendered thing to that or is it just that miss Piggy has made Kermit uncomfortable, which we also saw her do.
That was sort of my take on it, whereas like I think she did make him uncomfortable. I don't know. It's so hard because it's like, at this point, what are we doing. We're pathologizing the muppets.
Well that's our job.
I guess so, and we have to live with that. But yeah, I don't know. I sort of was going back and forth on that where maybe that is like part of why their relationship is so interesting, where it is like a little bit confusing of like does he not want her to come? Is he kind of like freaked out by having a romantic feeling? Like which is it? And I honestly, I mean, on this viewing, I wasn't totally sure. Where it doesn't seem like he's disinterested or
like does not like her. It seems like they get along well. But I don't know. I mean, there's especially in a like an ambiguous romantic interaction where I feel like there's the feeling of like, well, they wouldn't want to come with me? Like they're so cool, they wouldn't, you know, And it feels like there's an element of that. But then I think you can also look at it on the flip side of like she is kind of pressuring him into taking her along.
I don't know.
I think that there's a lot of different ways to interpret that interaction. And that's part of why her relationship is so like not healthy but definitely compelling.
Right well, because after that she has like invited herself along. She gets in the car and then is like, let's have a romantic dinner, and she keeps being like flaky and she leaves, and sometimes that's because she's been abducted by Doc Hopper, but she'll often, you know, as we've said, she won't hesitate to take a call from her agent, and she always seems to be putting if there's a career opportunity that comes up, she'll put that first over Kermit.
Right So, up until that point, it seems like Kermit is just sort of going along with this. He doesn't seem as enthusiastic about spending time with Miss Piggy as she feels about spending time with him. But then when she leaves and he thinks that she has stood him up. He's heartbroken. And then there's that scene with Ralph where he's like, oh, man, stay away from women, that's my motto, right, and then he sings the song about how you can't live with him, you can't live without him, and we're.
Like right, Rolf, and you're like, Ralph, you are being counterproductive. And again, I think that this is part of why Kermit and Piggy are so interesting and why I can understand the argument for kids are seeing this movie they shouldn't witness this like kind of unhealthy dynamic. But I also think that when you're a kid, I don't know, this just does feel different to me in tone than like when you're a kid and you see a princess movie.
It just feels more authoritative in the way that the values of the movie are presented than a Muppet movie.
I could be wrong about that. I don't know. I enjoy watching these movies more than I enjoy watching a Princess movie, because those feel very firmly for children and very like here is the value, here is the sin, here is the choice, and like in this it's sort of presented more like, eh, well, you know you know, like it's so silly in a way that I think, weirdly, a lot of children's movies aren't silly, where I think that both of them are kind of making unhealthy, ego
driven choices throughout this relationship. And so it's hard, at least in my view, it's like kind of hard to take a side, yeah, because I do think that Miss Piggy can absolutely be a bully, and I also think that Kermit can kind of be like, I don't know, I mean, I Miss Piggy is certainly the more aggressive
party in the relationship. But you also see moment where Kermit has not expressed a lot of interest in her and she walks away and then he's like, well, wait to sick you, why don't you want to be my girlfriend? And you're like, well, you kind of rejected her.
You know, that's the thing with Kermit. He needs to express He needs to learn how to understand and express his feelings more effectively, because he's.
Either like get him.
Oh yeah, I'm gonna get Kermit's ass right now, ready, uh huh No, he just like if he is interested or if he is not interested, he needs to communicate those things more clearly. But he doesn't. He doesn't seem to have any you know what. Kermit needs to grow a spine, and he needs to express his feelings more clearly and communicate better.
Frogs even have spines, they do.
They're vertebrae, yes they do. Okay, sorry, yeah, they're they're amphibians, which are yeah, okay, a little science. I'm not I'm doctor Bunsen, honeydew, I'm I'm just missus Baker over here being like really really yeah, so no, no, amphibians have vertebrae, so they have spines, okay, but Kerman doesn't, and he needs to freaking grow one and learn how to communicate more effectively because when he's aloof, I don't know what that means for how he's feeling, when he's uncomfortable, he's
you know, he doesn't say that. I don't know how what he's feeling, and neither does Miss Piggy.
So and again I think that that is like what is compelling about their relationship, as these are two very emotionally immature characters who are almost the perfect storm of emotional immaturity because the ways in which they're emotionally immature, they can't understand the other where like Miss Piggy is so straightforward, and when she doesn't receive straightforward feedback in return, she's either hurt or like, Okay, I'm going to move on, and Kermit is so it seems like kind of like
compartmentalized and like not sure how to express emotion and affection for whatever canonical reason. But I also feel like it's playing on at least in the opinion of or in the view of the writers who are majority men. Which is important to keep in mind is that this is, you know, men of I'm assuming varying emotional maturity. They're interpreting how men interpret emotions versus women, and it is
kind of this binary view. But it does seem like these are two characters who, at least in my opinion, and it seems like in the writer's opinions, do genuinely care for each other and do love each other. But the reason that they are like in this it's different than Barbie and Ken in that way because like Barbie and Ken, at least outside of the Gretigeric lore, are kind of perfect, and so it's like almost a more
ambiguous loop. But with Kermit and Piggy, you almost understand why there's no conclusion because they don't necessarily grow significantly as individuals, where Miss Piggy is always you know, it's like they just never go to therapy, and so they're in this infinity loop of like we love each other, but we cannot adequately express it to the other, so it never feels completely secure. Mm hmmm, and that sucks.
It does. I also think it's worth noting again because we've brought this up, but the person who brings Miss Piggy to life is a man. It's frank Oz.
It's like Shakespearean basically how this all plays out right.
So it's frank Oz who both voices Miss Piggy and is the like puppeteer for her. And he was also the person who had a big hand in kind of developing hand, a literal hand.
It's his hand, Kalin.
He shoves his hand up, okay, inside her and brings her to life relatable.
Much No, uh, I mean such things have happened.
Yes, yes, anyway, he was the person to largely develop her as a charter. And that video essay that you mentioned entitled Miss Piggy Camp and the Death of the Movie Star, the you know, be kind rewind video Essay dives into this a lot as far as frank Oz brings this character to life, but it's like a man interpreting a woman's behavior, and so there are examples of like Miss Piggy being quote unquote hysterical, which is like, okay, is that a man's interpretation of how a woman behaves.
But there's also this element of like she is mimicking these like old Hollywood stars who have a tendency to like be very melodramatic in their performances in movies, and like that's who Miss Piggy's emulating.
I feel like you could make the argument that Miss Piggy, even though it seems like frank Oz initially is like uncomfortable, really takes this on, is a drag character, like fair, because she pulls so heavily from this era of exaggerated femininity in esthetics and behavior. Miss Piggy to me seems like frank Oz not fully understanding that he's performing a drag character.
That's so interesting, But yeah, I agree because there's this element of her character which again, like frank Oz helped to develop, where you know, she acts like this diva, she's mimicking these old Hollywood stars. She's putting on an air of like sophistication in class that she doesn't actually have because like, deep down, Miss Piggy is a farm girl. She's a farm pig. He keeps calling her a truck driver who will like beat your ass if you piss her off.
Right, which is just like another way of saying, like a woman who comes from like humble beginnings, who has been launched to this level of glamor and fame that requires a level of docility and femininity that would be impossible with the amount of effort and determination it would take to get there in the first place, which is the situation with So I mean, that's what I love about be kind Rewind's video essay is that it's so clearly demonstrated of like where there Miss Piggy's character is
pulling from and how it feels like in conversation with Pearl Yeah or recent movie which is also referenced in that video essay, But just about how anyone who is presented to you in the way Miss Piggy is on such a large platform, you know, historically would have had to either come from privilege and money or really had to work their ass off to get to the top, and often when you see women and fems get to the top, the expectation is to be like, oh, I don't know, and like Miss Piggy does that in a
way that is obviously put on, and I love that. I don't know it just I wonder. I mean, Frank Oz is in his eighties, so who fucking knows, But yeah, Miss Piggy does feel like one of our iconic drag characters to.
Be mm hmm, definitely. I want to talk about the scene. We touched on it a little bit, but just to kind of reiterate the scene where Kermit and Miss Piggy are both being held captive and she's saying to Kermit like, oh, I know you have a great plan to rescue us, and it seems like it's going to be up to Kermit to save Miss Piggy, you know, that classic trope of a woman needs to be saved by a man. She's expecting that this will happen, but Kermit does nothing
to save them. He gets put in an even more compromise situation where he's about to be brainwashed and it's Miss Piggy is the one who has to break free. From her restraints. She fights off all the bad guys.
There's like a half a dozen guys that she beats the shit out of, and then she saves Kermit from being brainwashed and then puts the big bad of this scene, which is the mel Brooks Nazi doctor character, puts him in the brainwashing machine and then he turns into a frog or something, and then she bails onto him, and then she's like, by Kermit, I booked a commercial. See you later.
It's so hard to not be on her side here because it's like she subverts everything that you expect the damsel in distress, because that is how she's set up as a damsel in distress, I feel like, very knowingly by the writers. And then she does everything that a damsel in distress doesn't do, which is liberate herself and save the man, and saves the man who traditionally would save her, and then bails on him romantically as well.
Like it's just so hard to like, it's very hard for me to apply the like Miss Piggy is an unhealthy romantic character, which is like basically true, but because this is so meta, like the point of this scene is that Miss Piggy is doing everything a damsel in distress doesn't do. She frees her and the man via kung fu violence and then gets a professional opportunity and
bails on him. And while Kermit is well within his rights to be hurt by that, you know, even though you're right, he doesn't know how to emotionally communicate because they're just both so emotionally fucking stunted. But I just
I love that scene. Miss Piggy does everything wrong and it makes you love her more, and it like, I feel like by her being such a compelling and fun character to watch and watching her do everything quote unquote wrong or just like not what you expect someone in that situation to do, it almost makes it easier, you know, like when I was a kid watching this to call into question like, well, why does the opposite usually happen?
If I love it so much when it doesn't happen, Like it's a cool sort of entry point to analyze some of the common movie tropes that you've seen a million times in a lot of kids movies up until that point, Like Miss Piggy, she is cooking, she's doing something true.
You know who isn't doing something? Camilla Lawzy oh, oh, well that too, Camilla.
Yes, Camilla should be doing MOA.
Yes. Do you have anything else to say about Miss Piggy before we move on?
I mean, I think that another thing that has come up with Miss Piggy over the years, not necessarily within the scope of this movie, is just like her I think rightfully earned place in feminist canon, and just like the idea of an imperfect woman be it this icon and a very ambitious woman being an icon. And also she's kind of Delulu, and like you know, I think every muppets raw talent besides Kermit, can kind of be
called into question. And I kind of love that too, where like, yeah, that's who succeeds in Hollywood is like one person who's actually good every once in a while, and then like forty people who basically suck, especially Fozzy Bear.
I would even question Kermit's talent there, I said it.
I just feel like Rainbow Connection, he did that off the top of the dome.
Come on, But was his voice good?
Wow? Jim Henson's spinning in his grave.
Well, sorry, these are just my thoughts.
And you said it, you said what you said. I think the only thing I bring up with Miss Piggy canonically, is the way that her and Kermit's physical size is used as comedy is some thing that I think has been discussed quite a lot. I don't really feel qualified too, because I just haven't done enough research on it to intelligently comment on. But I know that in the show leading up to this movie, not as much actually in
this movie. But I think that their difference, like Miss Piggy is just physically bigger than Kermit because she is a pig and he is a frog, right, It's just true, But that at different points in their relationship that the difference in their size has been called attention to in a way that has not always been sensitive. But I think that there's also been a lot of thoughtful reclaimings
of their dynamic. Just all that to say, like we're just talking about Miss Piggy and Kurbit in the scope of this movie, there's a lot of conversation that has gone on about their relationship. Outside of that, I suppose to acknowledge that I don't feel able to intelligently comment on it at this time. Sure, and now we've entered
the Camilla zone. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about Camilla because she is, like, I feel like a very underrated, underdisgusted Muppet character because she's been around since nineteen seventy eight.
Wow. Yeah, and this is honestly the first time I've noticed her in any Muppet thing.
In't it a shame?
It's a shame. So she's Gonzo's his wife. She is his chicken wife or girlfriend or partner of some kind.
They're committed. It seems like they're committed. Yeah, and they seems like they're monogamous.
Too, Yeah, I would guess so. Yeah, But wouldn't it be funny if they had an open marriage?
Good for Camilla?
And we're practicing ethical non monogamy anyway. So she does not speak English. She clucked, And it seems as though only Gonzo understands her, or at least he's the only one to talk to her, which means that it's really hard for us to know anything about her as a character.
We don't see her interacting with anyone else. Everyone else ignores her, No one acknowledges her as a character, and no one seems to care about her or what she wants, and therefore the audience has a hard time knowing and caring about her and I think that's a damn shame because she's one of the few characters who's not like male coded like all the other Muppets are.
I agree with you. I think that Camilla is extremely disrespected and if there is any five years ago, over the top, unnecessary origin mini series about a Muppet's character, I would like to see Camilla because I just can't unlike Miss Piggy, who I could watch for a million years, but I don't think that her character has been been
like underthought or under disgusted as the years have gone on. Camilla, I just don't think has been thought about it once because Yeah, as I was watching this, I was like, well, has Camilla ever been given more consideration than this movie? And the answer appears to be a hard no. Where. Camilla was introduced in the late seventies on The Muppet Show, always in conversation with Gonzo, which is not the case
for Miss Piggy. Miss Picky was originally a utility player on the Muppet Show who was later brought into Kurbit's orbit, but she's originally sort of her own thing. But she was introduced in episode three h five of the Muppet Show, most prominently in episode three oh nine, and I'm pulling from the Muppet wiki.
Here, okay, scholarly journal.
Muppet wiki when Gonzo attempted to audition her and another chicken named Nelly for Liberachi's So, just to remind you what yar we're in here, So Camilla was sort of the standout chicken from a group of chickens, much like Miss Piggy was a standout from a group of pigs. And again it's like, is this how women become prominent by standing out from a pack of other women? It's just interesting.
Wow.
But the whole joke with Camilla for the last almost now fifty years is that Gonzo will frequently attempt to step out on Camilla because he cannot tell the difference between Camilla and other chickens, which is just a broadway of saying all women are the same to our guy, Gonzo.
So he's polyamorous by accident smooching on all these others.
I think that's an interesting way of saying cheating. I think that's a way of saying he's cheating on her. I would love I dare a man to say, actually, it turns out I'm polyamorous accident. I'm like, uh, bitch, you're cheating, Like he is a cheater, yeah, because he tells Camilla, you're my one and only and then says, oops, turns out all women are the same to me, so he is. Actually I would chafe with that. I would say that he is a cheater who is lying about it.
And that's the polyamorous community I love and respect and the whole point of the poly I mean, unless I'm it's that you're not doing that.
It's that you're open and honest with your intentions.
Yes, Gonzo, I would say that honesty is not there. The thing is, I can separate the art from the artist with Gonzo because I love Gonzo and I think he's got riz. I think he's got incredible outfits. I think he gave a career defining performance in Muppet Christmas Carol. Like, yes, I love Gonzo, but interpersonally, I just think he just mistreats Camilla and then he's just like, oh sorry, I
can't tell the difference between you and other chickens. This is a an ongoing joke for decades with Gonzo and Camilla, including in again pulling from the Muppet Wiki on Muppet Babies, Camilla is a rag doll that sometimes comes to life in baby Gonzo's imagination. So like, she's just I don't
know the level of thoughtlessness, poor Camilla. I believe that Camilla has thoughts, feelings, aspirations that we are just due to the language barrier not made privy to and we're just she's just doomed to be Gonzo's disrespected wife.
I agree. And then there's Janice, who is one of the members of Electric Mayhem. We also touched briefly on her. She barely talks in the scenes that feature the band, and it's mostly Doctor Teeth animal yapping on. She isn't given a whole lot of characterization.
Yeah, she's not super prominent, which sucks because I think that she is like a very sweet and fun character. I like her. I wish that there was more. But yeah, like she is, if anything, number three in the band where it's like Doctor Teeth, but I think she probably still speaks the least.
I would say.
So, Yeah, it's a bummer. It's a bummer because I like her. I think she's fun. I guess that she was originally again pulling from scholarly journal Muppets Wiki, she was originally designed as a part of a Mick Jagger episode. Okay, so I guess that was like why the band was created to like play with him, And I don't know.
I feel like there's a lot of music and specifically rock history in the fact that Janice is the only fem in this band where I feel like that has been a common trope that is based in reality of like the token woman in a band, and Janie very much falls into that trope without really commenting on it
or characterizing her outside of it. So it just sort of feels like acknowledging a known trope versus trying to subvert it, which again like sucks because you have it's almost like Princess Leiah syndrome, where you have one woman in this whole cannon, Miss Piggy, who is being thought about, who is subverting tropes, who is like acknowledging stuff but also pushing back against it, and then you have characters like Janis and Camilla who are just falling into the
trope of the wife who is constantly stepped out on but remains and the token woman in the band, whoever it is like, it just feels like acknowledgments of Trub's as opposed to thoughtfully commenting on them. But get a group of men in the room and see if they're able to think about more than one woman character. It very rarely happens.
This is so true, and that extends to the human women that we see on screen. Because there are tons of celebrity cameos in this movie, there are only I think three of them are from women. Because you've got Carol Kine, Madelin Cohn, and Chloris Leachman. They all have
tiny little cameos. They're doing quick bits. And that is true of some of the men who are doing celebrity cameos, but others like Steve Martin and Mel Brooks, for example, have like pretty extended, longish scenes where they're on screen quite a bit versus all of the women are barely there.
I think Chloris Leachman has the most screen time slash like plot relevancy because there's a whole thing where she's allergic to animal hair and she's the assistant to the producer who they're trying to, like see to get the audition, and they throw all of their animal hair in her face so that she sneezes and they can sneak into the office. So all this to say, the women aside from Miss Piggy are not thought out well at all. Slash are barely there.
Which is a shame. And I also, I mean, just like hearkening back to the b kind Rewin essay, I think something that she very intelligently comments on is like, even though the writing and top level decisions with Miss Piggy's character come from men, a lot of what makes her iconic. We're designed by women who designed her costumes and like designed the aesthetic that surrounds her where she is not completely beholden to men, but those are the people that sort of ultimately hold the reins on what
the character says and performs. And I don't know, I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to look at that, and I don't want to be too binary, and like who gets to determine who this character is? But when you have a room full of CIS men who mostly identify as straight making these decisions, you can feel it. And it does feel kind of like a miracle that you even get Miss Piggy out of a room of
creatives like this, And so I'm grateful for that. And I also I think that the way that women are portrayed or just like glaringly not portrayed in the Muppets, like definitely leave something to be desired. It's better handled in Sesame Street, which has as an Auntie I can tell you, steadily introduced more presenting characters into its core group over the years to sort of rectify the original cast of majority male characters that were introduced to Sesame
Street in the nineteen sixties. So you are originally presented over half a century ago with mostly male identifying muppets, But this is a show that's been on for half a century, and so they've brought in characters that are more representative of the actual world and the Muppets because I feel like, of how stop and go they have been in terms of cultural relevance, that has never really happened.
They haven't been updated in the way that a weekly show that's been on for half a century would have to be updated, and that sucks. And I think, while that is a frustration, and while I hope and I think that like the Jason Siegel thing was kind of a failed attempt to do this, because like, what did Jason Siegel do in that original movie he put out, besides presenting himself a sis male and this other character Walter Us, this male muppet like you just did more
of the same, so there wasn't any meaningful shift. I think if the Muppets do get a huge relaunch, I hope it would be with a more diverse behind the scenes crew and just a more diverse presentation of who the Muppets are, and that as long as the characters are strong, it will work. Like right, that's really all it takes. If that does happen down the line, I
hope that there would be meaningful effort behind that. But in the meantime, I mean, I think a nice thing I want to say is that as dominated by male presenting characters as this world is, they are more emotionally intelligent than most male characters of this era are, or at least more able to present emotion and feelings.
I would agree with that. It's almost as if characters who are not like visibly human it allows them to kind of be more emotionally intelligent and expressive. Sure, because the pressure of like cis mean to have a certain level or perceived masculinity kind of goes out the window when it's puppets made of felt, you know, so I feel like that probably has something to do with it.
Yes, so very a very male coping mechanism of like, can I express this if it's through my puppet and you're like, yeah.
If that helps, I guess.
But I do appreciate that, like I mean, and again, particularly with Kermit, that he is an imperfect character. He has a lot of self doubt. He has a lot of uncertainty about himself in the direction his life is going. That is presented, you know, like pretty vulnerably and pretty thoughtfully, and that's a very consistent element of that character, where he is ambitious and he is invested in the characters that surround him, but he also has sort of this
like Achilles heel of doubt in himself. But it's almost that same doubt and questioning that often leads to a breakthrough that allows him to feel more confident, and usually that confidence is rooted in the community he's built around him, and true, I think that's beautiful. And you know, in a world that is in almost any era like dominated by these very stereotypical male characters who are you know,
bootstrapping their way to blah blah, blah blah blah. It's like just this internal confidence or sense of ability that
allows them to succeed. With Kerrmit usually what allows him to succeed as his willingness to be self reflective and this kind of softness to this character that doesn't just make him able to be more personally satisfied, but also in terms of like his relationship with Miss Piggy, it's his vulnerability and his softness that makes him appealing romantically, which is something that we're also not frequently presented with
with a male romantic hero. So I think, you know, he and Miss Piggy are both very flawed characters, but I don't view that as a negative. I think that that is just like part of why they are so enduring.
It's part of the human experience. Slash the Frog and pig experience. Yeah, yeah, I like that scene where he is talking to himself, like by the campfire in the desert. It's a very like Gollum and Smeagel scene to me.
But like the cuteous version of it. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah. I love curve It. I just I love them all except Fazzi Bear It can suck it. He can I wish him the worst.
Just to speak a little bit more to the kind of failure to evolve in the Muppets, the way that like Sesame Street has been able to become more inclusive. I think it's worth noting that this is an extremely white movie slash white cast. All of the Muppets are muppeteered and voiced by white men, and all of the cameos except for Richard Pryor and maybe one or two other exceptions, but otherwise it's overwhelmingly white actors who are
seen like as human beings in the movie. So yeah, just overwhelmingly white cast that I don't think improves very much as the Muppets go on, maybe with the exception of Muppet Wizard of Oz with Ashantine.
Quinn Well and we and neither of us have watched last year's completely I think watched by no people. Muppet Haunted Mansion.
I started, I was curious, and it was really bad, and then I shut it off.
I can't. I do think it would be really interesting to sort of analyze side by side, because I'm not an authority on either of these, but like to see how and why Sesame Street has kept with the times
so intelligently were the Muppets. You know, they came from the same mind, but it just feels like there's been a different amount of care and creative control applied to the differing things, because yeah, I mean from when I get do I mean from just Sesame Street has always been a very diverse world from day one that has improved over time, where it was like supposed to accurately reflect the demographics of New York City at the time that it started, and so it was not an entirely
white world and it was a poor neighborhood that Sesame Street is set in, and I just never I think it's like, maybe because the Muppets have such high brow aspirations in a way that Sesame Street doesn't because they're all supposed to be four or something. I don't know. It is interesting to see how the same creative team can spawn such different legacies in terms of representation.
I do like when they drive past Big Bird and they're like, do you want to come with us to Hollywood? And he's like, no, I'm going to New York City? Ever heard of it? And they're like, good look.
One of the movies I considered pitching for my birthday that I was like, I can't do this to Caitlin. But I watched it with my niece recently. It's so fun. Is the Adventures of the Elmo and Grouchland?
No, I would have enjoyed that.
I think it's so good. It's really good. We should cover it another time. I also don't know how much there would be to talk about because it is a movie for four year olds, but like, yeah, I watched it with my niece. I remember my little brother went to see it in theaters. It was a big deal. But it's basically just exactly what it sounds like. Elmo goes to Grouchland, where Oscar the Grouch is from. It's
so iconic. The villain is Mandy Patankin and the fairy godmother type character is Vanessa Williams, and it's just unreal. It's a very special film, Okay, And I think it's one of the only I haven't actually seen this movie because it came out a fair amount of time before I was born in so have you seen Same Street? Follow That Bird? No, it's a movie that came out in nineteen eighty five, so it predates both of us.
It's big Bird's movie. Okay, it is showing that the new Beverly in a couple of weeks, and I am gonna go. We go? Should we go? I like Sesame Street movies have historically never worked out. Elmo and Grouchland flopped at the box office, damn. But it is an incredible movie and I would recommend it.
Okay.
Is it a bechel Cast movie? I don't know. I don't know. Give us a couple of years.
Anything could be a bechdel Cast movie.
It's true.
It's true.
A movie is a bechdel Cast movie. Yeah, I don't know. Do you have anything else to say about the Muppet Movie?
I don't think I do. Do you?
I don't think so either. I think you know ultimately, I you know. On a personal level, I just think that this movie and this world, while flawed, is really special to me. And I think I probably will, in my COVID fugue state after this go and watch the defunct Land Jim Henson series, because for any of his flaws and personal biases, I just like, I find his creative legacy, in his creative trajectory so inspiring and so cool, and I just really love his and Frank Oz's collaborations.
I think they're so special and so boundary pushing, and all of the risks that he took in times that he was willing to say like, eh, fuck you guys, I'll I'll take a pay cut to like try this, and sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't, but it was always interesting and it was always I don't know, I just like, I've been thinking about a lot of artists who took those kinds of risks recently, and he did it in a way that made it's so I mean, I know that Kermit is very much a Jim Henson
self insert character, but you know the whole idea of that. Yes, he did want success and he did want fame, but he also only wanted that to the extent that it would make others happy.
Yeah, that is.
Kind of a overly simplistic way to present any of that. But I just think at its core, it's really cool and feels like what Jim Henson was at his core for any of his flaws, really trying to do. And I just love I love Muppet World. It's the best, That's all I have to say.
Beautiful. The movie does not, unfortunately, pass the Bechdel test.
No, it does not. It certainly does not know you. And that's an l that's a big L hard no.
But what about our nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale I don't examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, yeah, you know what, as much as I enjoy the Muppets, I don't think this movie does very well on the nipple scale. Yeah, I would give it, I guess to split down the middle. Let's do the bechdelcast cheat code and do two and a half.
Because there are subversions like when Miss Piggy saves herself and saves Kermit and isn't a damsel in distress, which is what that scene is deliberately being set up to be, and then also deliberately subverts that expectation. And so I appreciated moments like that, but those are few and far between, and it's mostly just female characters being ignored or not really having much bearing on the story. And it's very much a focus on the male Muppets and what their
desires are and what their journey is. And Miss Piggy is the most significant character you know who presents as a woman, but you know she has a thing or two like the other Muppets, to learn about healthy boundaries and clear communication. So nice that she's flawed, but I don't know. She is like abusive to Kermit a lot of the time, and that's not good. All this to say, I'll give it to and a half nipples. I'll give one to Miss Piggy because of her just like place
in the Zeitgeist. I'll give one to Camilla because she deserves a lot more than she was given. And I'll give my half nipple to Janice, who also deserves more. Yeah, I will.
Split down the middle as well. I think that there is so much to love from a starting point of subversion. Most of this goes to Miss Piggy, and I think what this movie fails to do and what the franchise fails to do. I would say the Muppet Show, while that's a whole other situation, was at least more inclusive and included a more diverse group of guest hosts in their shows. There's so many incredible iconic episodes with people of color, with queer people that were brought onto the show.
You don't really see that reflected in their first movie and or subsequent movie outputs. Really, and that's disappointing because it wasn't like they lacked in, you know, celebrity interests that were not CIS white people. I think Miss Piggy on her own, like really is a game changer, which
sounds so silly, but I do think it's true. But with the other women that populate this world, there's not only not enough women and fem characters, but outside of Miss Piggy, there's kind of little to be desired in terms of character development or further discussion, even though I think that the interesting elements of those characters are there which were so often frustrated by and that connects to
who is behind the camera. You know, not to say that there is not some gender diversity behind the camera, but certainly not in leadership roles or in performers, and that obviously makes a huge difference. That said, I think that the Muppets have inspired so many incredible creative subsequent endeavors that have been more inclusive and have been more thoughtful.
I just cannot think of anything like them. They're just so singular and so special, and I think, for all of their faults, very pure of heart and existing to bring people joy. And I love them so much, and I love this movie so much, so I'm going to go to and a half nipples and the Bechdel cast nipple scale, but five trillion nipples on the Jamie, I love it injected into my veins raw scale. And I will give my nipples to Miss Piggy Janice, and I'll
give the half to Camilla. But I do think that she deserves of anyone in this universe, she deserves the vanity limited serious treatment.
Yeah, give her a Chicken Run movie or run Away from Gonzo, you know.
Yeah, exactly exactly.
And with that in.
Mind, if you are interested in the magdal cast talking about chickens, we are going to be at the American Cinema Tech Friends of the Fest Festival at the Los Felis three on August twenty fifth at four pm hosting a screening of Chicken Run. Ever heard of it? And you can get the tickets to that in the link in our Bayo.
Sweetly, Happy birthday, Jamie.
Oh thanks, I don't care. This year, I think we should go to not It's very far. Yeah that much, I know.
I love that.
I need to see Snoopy. I just have this like to be close to Snoopy at this time.
I love that I need to ride a roller coaster. So okay, that all works out.
Two and one, two and one baby.
You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash bachtel Cast, where we put out two bonus episodes every month. Plus you get access to our back catalog of over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes and that is all five dollars a month.
Yeah, and you can also go to our merch store teapapic dot com slash Dbachdel Cast for all of your merchandising needs. In the meantime, keep it this piggy karate chop your romantic interests and we will look No, I'm standing by it. I'm standing by it. Send me to jail. I'll give a shit. It's my birthday. True and we'll see you next week.
Walka, Walka.
Comes full circle.
Ye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskressensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree slash Bechdel Cast